If You Want More Sympathy Try A Little Less Tea

Is complacency at the root of the current malaise?



If You Want More Sympathy Try A Little Less Tea

Macca and Wonder: Is Arsene on a similar decline?


Meet Bob, he’s a moron and he’s typical of the ‘Tea Party’ strand of right of centre of politics in the USA. He can’t express himself without shouting, which must mean he’s really passionate right? (Well, either that or someone incapable of conducting himself in a rational manner). He shouts an annoying catchphrase at every turn, which on this side of the Atlantic makes you about as politically credible as a character from the Fast Show or Little Britain (What’s next? What’s next? What’s next? – at a guess I’d say most probably more angry right wing guff). He has a tendency of demonising those whose opinions differ from his own - classics include his view that Obama’s plan for nationalised health care is the road to Communism in the USA, an obsession with Obama being a Muslim ‘that hates America’ and an assertion that the NAACP is a racist organisation – largely because he’s incapable seeing things in anything other than black and white with no grey area whatsoever. He has a tendency for gross misinformation, as according to Bob the UK education system doesn’t teach about the holocaust through fear of upsetting Muslims. He has a thinly veiled white Anglo-Saxon American Christian chauvinism and a tendency for portraying himself as Joe Public personified with a viewpoint drenched in ‘common sense’ as opposed to educated idiots who tell you otherwise – in essence the kind of common sense which tells you the earth is flat and the sun revolves around the earth. In short, like the Tea Party movement across the USA, his opinions are nothing other than vitriolic rhetoric.

For a moderate member of the Republican Party of the USA today it must be hell to see the discourse of the right of centre dominated by such idiots, particularly as this strand will probably put most Americans off of voting Republican come the next election, despite the fact that President Obama has been largely been seen as a very underwhelming US president in comparison to the hope he embodied in late 2008. From a personal point of view though I’m more than happy; in my opinion the world seems a much safer place when a Republican isn’t sitting in the Oval office. What particularly annoys me though is seeing such tea party-style black and white vitriol traded by people who in a footballing sense at least I’m roughly in agreement with. The last few years has seen sharp divisions within the ranks of Arsenal fans, between the pro and anti-Wenger camps – what seem to have been termed as ‘rose-tinters’ and ‘realists’ through this site’s articles and forum. My own personal point of view lies with the camp that believes Wenger isn’t the man to take Arsenal forward - rather than running through the reasons why again, I simply refer to my article after the Liverpool game back in April because my opinion now is pretty much the same as then. Within the anti-Wenger camp though, two further sub-divisions should be recognised – that of a rational faction who actually try to prove their point with facts and that of a Tea Party-esque group that seem to be prone to such traits as historical revisionism, jingoism, ridiculous demonising of their perceived enemy and overall one dimensional discourse.

For those who regularly read these pages, they may well recognise my name as the author of the ‘After Wenger’ series – which was devised immediately after Arsenal’s FA Cup exit through despair at seeing Arsenal’s endless passing and zero cutting edge lose a third trophy in under a month. I’d submitted the first article within 24 hours of that defeat, though later requested the Gooner editor hold the series back until the end of the season to see what, if anything, Wenger could salvage from the season which still had another two months left to run. I’d expected stick from the pro-Wenger camp and wasn’t disappointed. From where most of their replies to Anti-Wenger articles had previous been who could possibly replace Wenger, a series aimed at answering that question seemed to see their replies changed to telling me to stop being so childish and requesting the editor to put a stop to any further ‘After Wenger’ articles. What wasn’t anticipated though was a wave of vitriol and general idiocy from some among the Anti-Wenger camp.

The most boringly repetitive reply among the comments section of these articles had been the phrase ‘Anyone but Wenger please!’ What, really? Of the world’s six billion inhabitants all are a viable choice as long as they’re not Arsene Wenger? Maybe we should bring back Bruce Rioch and perhaps he can show us all what might have been had we kept him on a decade and a half ago? The other repetitive and ill thought out phrase had been along the lines of ‘Stop trying to portray replacing Wenger as difficult when it isn’t’. Sorry folks, history tells you differently. Any English club replacing a manager who has had over or around a decade’s worth of relative success at a club generally sees a decline of sorts. The only real exceptions to this rule are Liverpool after Shankly left in 1974 and Arsenal after George Graham who both went on to better things, though in both cases there was a large degree of continuation with regard to personnel. Most examples though, tend not to be so fortunate. Man Utd after Busby, Spurs after Bill Nicholson, Charlton after Alan Curbishley, Forest after Clough, Leeds after Revie, Wolves after Stan Cullis and Ipswich after both Alf Ramsey and Bobby Robson all experienced a decline that either led to a relegation or a long period beneath the level accustomed to under a manager who - after a decade or so - had literally moulded the club in their own image.

In reply to this point I can imagine a wave of vitriol from the Tea Party wing of the Anti-Wenger brigade accusing me of believing Arsenal will be relegated without Wenger – no they won’t, but they do risk falling to a level where qualifying for the Europa Cup seems like an achievement. Yes, Arsenal could buck the trend and see an upward curve after replacing Wenger, however to achieve this they have to make the right choice in who they appoint as Arsene’s successor, therefore ‘anyone but Wenger’ is a phrase which really is as brain-dead as it gets – as is suggesting Mark Hughes as Wenger’s successor as one article did over the summer. Though I’m convinced change at the helm is looking increasingly necessary, I’m not convinced at all it’s going to be easy. Another point I’d envisage the Tea party wing of the Anti-Wenger brigade pointing to is the idea of ‘relative success’ and surely this can’t include six trophy-less seasons. Well, yes I’m afraid it does actually. One absurd comment someone made on one of my After Wenger articles was that three titles in fifteen years was mediocre by Arsenal’s standards. Is it really? Yes, there was an Arsenal FC before Arsene Wenger and yes, it was the third most successful side in English Football history even in 1996, but there’s also a few other points about Arsenal’s history the Anti-Wenger brigade seem too quick to overlook.

In the forty years between the end of the Second World War and the appointment of George Graham as Arsenal’s manager, the club had won seven trophies. Three of those were won before rationing had officially ended and another three were won in a 13 month period between April 1970 and May 1971, therefore there were great swathes of the post war era where Arsenal won nothing at all. Also, you may wish to compare Arsenal’s post war tally with other clubs come May 1986 – Liverpool reaped 25 trophies, Man Utd reaped 11 trophies, even Tottenham Hotspur reaped 12 trophies between 1946 and 1986. With regard to Wenger’s record being mediocre in comparison to Arsenal’s standards, this too has no basis in fact – for one, he’s the most successful Arsenal manager in terms of trophies won and finishing positions in the league. Also, no other Arsenal manager has won three league titles – Wenger has. If anything people view Arsenal’s standards today through the prism of the 19 year period of success between Graham’s appointment and Wenger’s last trophy, this period was down to two great appointments that were the right men at the right time ten years apart. Arsenal therefore can’t be flippant with who they bring in to replace Wenger when the time comes, if anything it will be the biggest choice in relation to on-field affairs that the board will make in a generation.

There also seems to be an absurd attempt by many among the anti-Wenger camp to diminish Wenger’s past achievements during the nine years in which he actually won trophies, which is equally as ludicrous and – what many among the ‘tea party’ wing of the anti-Wenger movement seem to be in blissful ignorance of – immediately discredits any argument for bringing about a change of manager. Although no Champions League or back to back titles were forthcoming for Wenger, even in his fruitful period, some of Wenger’s achievements - particularly between 2001 and 2004 - were once in lifetime accolades that will possibly never be equalled. The invincibles and the 49 match unbeaten run are the obvious ones that many within the pro-Wenger camp will point to, even though some clown in one article on the Online Gooner actually questioned whether the ‘Invincibles’ ‘really were that great?’ on the basis of the fact they drew 12 games and didn’t win all four trophies. Well, as far as English football is concerned the only other side in England to have finished a top flight season unbeaten did it over 22 games, in the earliest days of professional football, with a league that consisted of no sides south of Birmingham. Neither did Arsenal do this with a side that was particularly defensive in its outlook; the Invincibles won plaudits from all comers for their style of play, unlike Jose Mourinho’s near-Invincibles of a year later.

Secondly, not only is it rare in English football, it’s pretty much a rarity in any major European league. AC Milan of course achieved it in 1991/92, Perugia did the same in 1978/79 though only won 11 out of 30 games and failed to win the title. The only other instances are Benfica in 1972/73 and 1977/78 and Andre Villas Boas’ FC Porto last season, in a Portuguese League that is so uncompetitive it has only ever had five teams win its League title as well as Dresdner SC in the German League in 1942/43 with 23 wins out of 23 – in the middle of WW2 when most German players were probably conscripted to fight for the Fuhrer. So it’s pretty conclusive proof that the achievements of Wenger’s Arsenal in 2003/04 are difficult to downplay or diminish and yet some of the numpties among the Wenger revisionists have still attempted to do so. Aside from the achievements of the ‘Invincibles’ is the fact that Arsenal’s title winning side of 2002 went an entire season unbeaten away from home, not just a first in English football but overturning a convention of home advantage that is pretty much present in all team sports. If this wasn’t enough, Wenger’s Arsenal repeated the feat two years later. Arsenal also scored in every game of the 2001/02 season and took the overall record of scoring in 55 consecutive matches – eleven more than the previous record holder Man City in 1936-37, when defences were much less miserly and goals were easier to come by.

There’s also the point that many have made that his early successes were built on players he inherited, which include the defensive ‘big six’, plus Ray Parlour and Dennis Bergkamp. That point however means about as much as the fact that George Graham won his first trophy with a first XI that was entirely inherited from Don Howe, as well as three seasons later winning his first title at Anfield with a squad that was over half inherited from his predecessor. In essence, it’s a point that doesn’t mean anything at all in the grand scheme of things. Whoever a manager inherits he still has to work with them effectively, which is something many of the old guard claimed Bruce Rioch, with his tendency for eyeballing senior players, was incapable of doing. Also regardless of whom he inherited, George Graham and Bruce Rioch never left him much in the way of a midfield. By 1998 however, as the front page of the Daily Mirror pointed out, his previously unknown central midfield pairing would win the World Cup.

People also seem to forget that the five defenders he inherited were all over the age of 30 and back in 1996 this usually meant you were winding your career down. Most people back then actually pretty much assumed that any incoming manager would have broken up the symbol of the Graham era and though their goals against column still looked impressive, there were undoubtedly chinks in their armour with regard to their pace - if you don’t believe me then peruse the footage of the home cup defeats to lower league opposition against Bolton in 1994 and Millwall a year later.

Put simply, if anyone tells you that back in 1996 they would have expected three quarters of the famous back four to still be turning out regularly for the Arsenal six years later they are an out and out liar. Also, in an era where we were buying the likes of Bergkamp and Overmars, very few ever thought that Ray Parlour was worth keeping hold of either. It was Wenger’s training methods, dietary requirements and man management that changed all that.

One of the stupidest pieces of commentary I’ve seen on any article on this site came from John Evans’ piece back in June questioning the impact of the training methods Wenger brought to England in 1996, stating ‘a lot of the ideas that AW arrived with at the time were considered revolutionary, nowadays they are all common place at most clubs’. The fact that somebody had an idea people once considered leftfield and then later considered it to be conventional wisdom actually bolsters their standing John, it doesn’t lower it. He continues ‘Should it come as a surprise to find out you can’t play at the top of your game if you spend most of your spare time in pubs, clubs and hanging around kebab houses at 3am?’ Well in an era when the leading lights of English football such as Paul Gascoigne, Tony Adams and Paul Merson among others were habitually doing so, yes it did. His summary is ’Were AW’s ideas at the time really that revolutionary or were the then current day training regimes just so damn ridiculous that a four year old could have improved on things?’ Well John, it’s easy to downplay the effect of any major change or innovation with hindsight.

After all, Arsenal got by winning trophies domestically and in Europe with a side of players who habitually downed pints and ate kebabs, much in the same way the Victorians – who saw themselves as the most advanced civilization the world had ever seen - got by in their work lives and spare time without such luxuries as a record collection or computers. If Thomas Edison was brought by a time machine to the twenty first century he’d probably have no clue of how to build or make improvements to an iPod; however that doesn’t mean that any four year old back in 1877 could have invented the Gramophone. No doubt plenty of people in 1877 probably thought they could lead full and productive lives quite easily without any need for recorded sound, or the further technologies that such ideas were built on – like magnetic tape which resulted in the kind of data storage your computer still uses today. Pretty much like how most English sides thought they could drink beer and stuff kebabs in their faces and still win titles without ever thinking that the march of progress would make them look like dinosaurs within a few years.

It’s also funny to see how even though the likes of John Evans recognise how retarded the English way was pre-1996 they still pepper their articles with phrases such as ‘English Grit’. This is a phrase that has often been repeated ad nauseam through the comments section also. There seems to be a strand of Arsenal support that rather than laughed at the xenophobic bollocks which opposition fans aimed at us over the last 15 years as any sensible fan would, actually took it to heart and resented the foreignness of the Wenger years in their entirety – regardless of its successes or failures. A stance which if anything is the height of stupidity considering that this week is the 45th anniversary since ‘English Grit’ actually won anything at international level (unless you’re desperate enough to include Le Tournoi in 1997 or the Rous Cup), compared to Wenger and his ‘cheese eating surrender monkey’ compatriots who have won three in the years since. Maybe these people have romantic notions of a parallel universe where Jermaine Pennant, Francis Jeffers and David Bentley had their chance to parade their ‘grit’ in the red and white without Wenger spoiling it by draining them of their natural ‘Englishness’. There’s also nothing more cringingly embarrassing than seeing fellow Englishmen heap self-praise on a clapped out bankrupt nation by talking about ‘English Grit’. This country is so devoid of the substance you don’t even see it on the path when it snows!

You see, the essence of the problem with this Tea-Party wing of the anti-Wenger camp are that they are quite obviously intellectually wrong-footed by the need to argue how someone who was once so prolific and a force for good for Arsenal Football club should now be seen as part of the problem rather than part of the solution. This task seems to be beyond them and instead they resort to vitriol, revisionism, jingoism and outright falsehood - even though it’s not actually that difficult an argument to put across if you think about it with a rational head. If you want a suitable analogy think ‘Ebony and Ivory’ by Stevie Wonder and Paul McCartney back in 1982 - a condescending and cringingly embarrassing tune that over-simplifies an extremely complex social phenomena that has blighted modern civilisation for over 400 years. Nor, was it a career blip by these two – it got worse. By 1984 Stevie Wonder turned out ‘I Just Called to Say I Love You’ – and though he said he meant it from the bottom of his heart, it sounded more like it emanated from the heart of his bottom. For Macca it was even worse, he ended up making songs about frogs! So how then do you explain to those with the untrained ear that these are two of the greatest songwriters the world of popular music has ever seen?

Do you argue that on the basis of this early to mid-80s career detritus, maybe the impression we built of these two powerhouses of pop back in the 1960s was based on nothing but falsehoods? Maybe the songs you thought were written by Paul were actually John’s work? Maybe the people at Motown had more of a hand in Stevie’s success than he actually did? Well the truth is not that black and white – the likes of ‘Uptight’ and ‘Yesterday’ really were down to the individual geniuses of Stevie and Macca. How then did it come to this? Well, success and endless praise builds arrogance and complacency. It builds a mentality where you think success comes easy without little effort – where you’ve lost the ability to tell simplistic genius from simple-minded rubbish. It builds an environment where turning out a substandard product in comparison to a few years previous still gets a few apologetic sycophants making excuses for the tosh you are serving up and a belief that the critics are just bitter and know little in comparison to you and hence their view has no merit. It builds an environment where, despite once being on the very cutting edge of new developments, new ideas not only pass you by but make you look antiquated and irrelevant by comparison. In short, to paraphrase Ebony & Ivory: ‘there is good and bad in everyone’. It’s just that in Arsene Wenger’s case the fault line between the good and the bad came sometime around 2005 and ever since our defence – much like our fans - has done anything but live together in perfect harmony!


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56
comments

  1. Robert Exley

    Aug 06, 2011, 13:42 #10749

    Steve Camfield - the politics is just an analogy drawn, unlike John Evans's claim that it takes up 68 paragraphs it actually takes up 1 and a half at the start of the article. There's as much space taken up with pop music if you want to measure it up. As for the left wing vs Tea party bit, well that is subjective on my part but it's more the line of argument than the stance that I take issue with. For instance one problem I have is the demonising of those of opposing stances - such as deeming someone who's opinion as about as far left on the spectrum as Harold Wilson or Clement Atlee (as I am) as being as extreme left as Lenin as you have done here. It's the same style of argument as those that want to rewrite Wenger's history pre-2004. Oh - and also, I read the Independent not the Guardian.

  2. Steve Camfield

    Aug 06, 2011, 9:41 #10718

    I do hate it when these awful Marxists have to bring their politics into sport. You may have some interesting things to say about Arsenal Robert, but honestly, very few of us want to read your extreme left-wing ravings. The Tea Party is the best thing to have happened in the USA for years, but it has no place in an Arsenal blog. Get a life Robert, and get back to reading the Guardian.

  3. Robert Exley

    Aug 06, 2011, 9:21 #10717

    maguiresbridge gooner - I welcome criticism, it would be rather dull if I only wrote articles everyone liked and I'm not an arbitor of the sole truth either - I'm more than happy too be proved wrong if that is the case. I wholeheartedly agree everyone is entitled to an opinion and no-one is entitled to an unchallenged opinion. However by definition surely people's criticism of my article shouldn't go unchallenged by me either. Especially if people respond to the article claiming I am an AKB, when I'm not. And in that instance I'm being mis-represented. You can disagree with my opinion, you can even call me a tosser but I'm not going to be mis-represented and when I am I'm going to challenge it.

  4. maguiresbridge gooner

    Aug 05, 2011, 20:34 #10713

    @rob exley when you write a piece surely you realise not every body is going to agree with you and you are going to recieve criticism like everybody else so why do you always insist on coming back at these people and try and show your smarter than them everybody is intitled to their opinion so why not just leave it at that.i'm always interested and always read your pieces so have no intention of getting into a slanging match with you but like i said if you left it like that you would get a heck of a lot more respect.

  5. GoonerGoal!

    Aug 05, 2011, 19:37 #10708

    The ‘Tea Party’ a strand of right of centre politics in the USA? Statements like could force us to place whatever follows under a validation microscope. The ‘Tea Party’ actually make GWB and his ultra-conservative cronies appear almost as political centerists by comparison. Think of it as our own Conservative Party and UKIP, get the idea?

  6. Redwith Whitesleeves

    Aug 05, 2011, 14:16 #10698

    Robert RE 11754 The Alonso/ Denilson point is relevant as an example of self-justification - which was the point I was making. I for one didn't suggest you were an AKB.

  7. Robert Exley

    Aug 05, 2011, 13:41 #10695

    Whinger_out_Now - In another heated rant you seem to be oblivious to the fact you are preaching to the converted. I'm for Wenger leaving on the basis of his record over the last few years. You're giving me examples of Denilson and Squallaci and mistakes in recent seasons - if you look at the article attached which I wrote in April I'm stating the exact same thing. If you bother to read the article I'm taking issue with people revising history pre-2004 and claiming that no hsitorical credit should be given to Wenger. Or people considering ill thought out replacements like Mark Hughes. You see, as the article is trying to state, it's this kind of tea-party style ranting which means you don't win any converts! GMan - comparing anyone to Ferguson is ridiculous, his record is far in excess of all others historically.

  8. Gman

    Aug 05, 2011, 12:13 #10689

    What utter tosh and what an insult to us realists to compare us to the tea party, it’s you that’s in denial (must be the wenger affect) or do you belong to the flat earth society? It’s all very well comparing wenger’s reign with his predecessors leaving out the golden age of the 1930’s, but you should be comparing him with one of the most successful managers in the history of British football. As much as I despise manure you can’t deny SAF’s contribution to the trophy cabinets of Aberdeen and that other club. You need to stop comparing dishes served up in the Arsenal café and start comparing them to a 3 star Michelin restaurants. Look at how dictators and any one in power long enough, end up believing their own spin and become totally detached from reality. “You may fool all the people some of the time, you can even fool some of the people all of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all the time.”

  9. celine

    Aug 05, 2011, 12:03 #10688

    I read a lot of this 'third way, moderate opinion, lets consider all the angles' kind of stuff nowadays. But UK football has never been about that. Have you never thought there wasnt something slightly odd about 100 grown men, some of them accountants and teachers, standing as one and screaming blue murder at a linesman who might just have given a throw in to the wrong team. Or people who travel a 400 mile round trip to watch an away game in Hartlepool in snow. Football is caricature and theatre, its why its so popular. If it was meant to be about stroking our chins and going through spreadsheets, it wouldnt be nearly so popular.

  10. MrOrwellToYou

    Aug 05, 2011, 10:46 #10687

    I agree with some of the points in here, even though I think Wenger should leave or at least change his policy. But it seems like you're just trying to flatter the AKBs because they're such a noisy rabble whenever Wenger is questioned. Also, you didn't address any of Whinger's points...

  11. Lord Froth

    Aug 05, 2011, 10:10 #10686

    "Sorry, but I couldn't get past "a manager who-after a decade or so had literally moulded the club in their own image". presumably you mean 'molded' but in any event I suggest you look up the meaning of the word 'literally' Robert - Post No. 11753" Re: Drum's post above, he did mean 'molded' but here in the UK we spell it 'moulded' with the u. Anyway, that was a good read Robert. I don't follow US politics but the rest about Wenger was interesting. Keep up the good work.

  12. Winch72

    Aug 05, 2011, 9:27 #10685

    Reminds me of an essay comment I once received : "Excellent to a point, which I find sorely lacking"...

  13. CD

    Aug 05, 2011, 8:02 #10684

    @Theo's Underpants Designer Yes I read Bob's reply quickly as I was about to rush out, and missed the irony. Stupid me next time I will have less haste! Sorry Bob.

  14. Up the Arsenal

    Aug 05, 2011, 5:40 #10683

    I really enjoyed reading this blog Robert Exley. Thanks for taking the effort to write it. I must say that I expected some readers to complain about the length and wasn’t disappointed! While I don’t agree with some of your points and reasonings in your piece I feel like it was well-written and reasonable. Like many gooners, I am also frustrated with some things happening at the club but while I would like to see a change in approach I don’t want a change in manager at this point in time. Why do so many fans think we have a divine right to success? Why are so many fans nowadays of the “I want it and I want it right now” ilk? The fact is, we’ve moved from simply being a big team in London to a world-renowned club but without being able to spend any of the money that the other mega-clubs around the world have been spending. We have no right to even be in the top 4 of England at this time, yet we are. I think we all could do with a little reality check as to the current financial restrictions that we are under, stop reading the Arsenal-hating media and then turning on each other in frustration. Divided we fall. And I definitely don’t want to club to fall.

  15. Whinger_OUT_NOW

    Aug 05, 2011, 0:43 #10681

    Robert Exley, I am not having a rant. I have given you facts that you CANNOT dispute. For example, can you dispute that Denilson, yes DENILSON, has said that he wants to leave Arsenal to "win" trophies? Can you dispute that for the last few years we either buy French or under-19 players? Going ahead, would you dispute that the only reason Squilacci plays is because of his nationality? Can you tell me any other club of Arsenal's stature that would have him in their reserve team, leave alone first team? One time can be a mistake, but to retain him is not a mistake. It's sheer stubborness and reverse xenophobic. For that matter, it's going to be 6 years for Diaby. Do you think he's worthy of his 60k salary and will still turn into Vieira? Incidentally, he's also French. CVan you dispute ANY of this? If you can't, then how am I having a rant simply by pointing out facts? What YOU are doing, as someone else pointed out, is having a rant disguised as a reasonable piece. You're trying to pass off your opinion about the perceived change that Whinger brouught to English football and how he made it from a 0 to A...he didn't, as pointed out by me using Fungumoan's example. What he did was clamp down on Arsenal's , and there is a difference between a club and a league, fondness for a drink too often. He did point out to the league that there can be skillfull players and not just thugs, but there were, and continue to be, skillful English players as well as the brutes. Yes, he changed ARSENAL'S method of playing but he went off the deep end and as with any despot, he didn't know when to stop. And there is precedence in all of this. All that he has been doing in the last 6 years has been done by the very same man, with the same result as we are seeing, almost 2 decades back at Monaco. Can you dispute that? Can you turn around and say that Whinger never sold off the big name players at Monaco right after winning the league (same as 2004) and started bringing in youth players leading to abject results. Can you? They saw sense. We still haven't. But, we'll just call all these facts as rants, while we'll call your opinion as the fact. But, let's call

  16. Justin

    Aug 04, 2011, 23:43 #10680

    I don not like your take on politics! The reality is democrats f**k things up and the republicans have to come along and sort them out. The slogan for the republicans for 2012 should be 'CHANGE' - change from the current cataclysmic administration's policies. All the things Obama promised he has failed to deliver on (only an idiot or a democrat nutcase would have believed all his ridiculous pre-election promises). On to football : Wenger deserves a lot more slack. His past achievements dictate that but also every year we come damn close to winning things - it's not like we're constantly plodding along in 6/7/8th. So Vive l'Arsene and Vive La Palin

  17. afc

    Aug 04, 2011, 23:10 #10679

    Bob - Without getting into American politics too much, stop talking out of your arse and acting all knowing as anyone will be able to tell you that JFK was not a 'rabid republican', he was probably the most popular Democrat president ever. Enough of that American crap anyway, this is an Arsenal site and aprt from the start, a good read with some excellent points.

  18. Andrew Cohen

    Aug 04, 2011, 22:42 #10677

    I would say that the anti-wenger stuff on this site is generally more fact driven than the pro. Yes there are statements which are well supported and those which are pure opinion, on both sides. Isn't the point of going to the Arsenal that if you are the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Chief Rabbi, a High Court Judge, a clerk in an office, a nurse, a shopkeeper, a second hand car dealer, a builder or a postman, you are friends with the people you sit with and share opinions about the team. It's a mixed ability class. The american parallel is appropriate in this regard - all empires end, there are no exceptions. Whatever Mr Wenger's achievements, and they are considerable, he is ( the evidence suggests) no longer able to come up to bat and deliver the solutions that he once did. There is no shame in this. The shame is in wasting everyone's time and money by staying beyond his sell by date. The facts, or proof of this are in our comparative performance in the last 6 years, whether against the standards that Mr Wenger has set, or against the opposition when strong or (as last season) weak. The same old defects replay year after year and are not addressed. He will not seek help and he will not get out of the way. A strong board would have dealt with this. Sadly we are without one. Stan Kroenke should get David Dein back on the board and in effective day to day charge of the club. The first job should be to ease Mr Wenger from a role which by his own admission when talking to Tony Adams when appointed Portsmouth Manager, "welcome to hell", is unpleasant for him, and I fear for us as well. Will the path to restoration of the team's fortune's be hard ? Yes it will, but at the present time we have no hope, and that, at least for me, is intolerable.

  19. GoonerRon

    Aug 04, 2011, 21:27 #10676

    I'll be honest, a lot of what you said was well over my head - US politics isn't really my bag. I will congratulate you, however, on your balanced appraisal of the manager and his tenure - it's not often you see it on here.

  20. Rob

    Aug 04, 2011, 21:19 #10675

    You may take my original post as a compliment but trust me - it wasn't ! Choosing to rewrite US history is - I suspect - beyond the both of us, so I'll leave that to one side. In fact even rewriting Arsenal's history is a tad beyond me. Maybe even you. But the future - it's all "up for grabs now" is it not ? So I would suggest we try to act like a PL team with a great history that began in the early 1930s - not 1997 - and has carried on with periods of interruption ever since. The gripe of so many - me included - is that the current shambles was eminently preventable but is entirely the product of a Manager who has long since lost his way. Arsene knows what he 'thinks' is right for him - but has long since discarded what is necessary for us. Ultimately - with or without 'the Guardian' under your arm - it comes down to whether you support Arsenal or Arsene ? For my own part I don't have any doubts. Over to you .......?

  21. Clueless

    Aug 04, 2011, 21:12 #10674

    long read, so anyway lets get back to the point at hand - Wenger needs to go, he is tired, out of ideas and inspiration and dragging arsenal down very quickly. he should have been smart and left at the same time as the last GG influenced player left us. yes that would have been smart. instead he believed his own propaganda and thought he was fergy. well he is a million miles from fergy who has built 6 teams. Wenger hasnt built any all himself not one

  22. Robert Exley

    Aug 04, 2011, 21:08 #10673

    Red with Whitesleeves - perhaps you should use some intelligence to justify your position. Using the Denilson/Alonso point isn't relevant. I've already stated that post-2005 Wenger was in his 'Ebony & Ivory' period and making stupid mistakes like that. It's also funny how a few suddenly seem to be suggesting I'm an AKB when I've clearly stated I'm for change. A few seem to be stuck in a 'with us or with the terrorists' mindset!

  23. Drum

    Aug 04, 2011, 21:01 #10672

    Sorry, but I couldn't get past "a manager who-after a decade or so had literally moulded the club in their own image". presumably you mean 'molded' but in any event I suggest you look up the meaning of the word 'literally' Robert

  24. Redwith Whitesleeves

    Aug 04, 2011, 20:51 #10671

    Robert, you have carefully selected 'facts' that support a viewpoint - common practise in debate and argument. But the inferences and conclusions you draw from those 'facts' are simply your opinion. Basically you are just having a rant like many of us do on these pages. Like Wenger, you use your 'intelligence' to justify your position. ("Buying Alonso would kill Denilson") That's fine. Just don't believe that you are the mouthpiece of "rational" wisdom and "sensible" thought. We are all rational and sensible to ourselves. You can put lipstick on the pig of opinion - but it's still a pig. P.S. I happen to like the frog song.

  25. Mark

    Aug 04, 2011, 20:00 #10670

    dear whinger out now - for me you are spot on

  26. Robert Exley

    Aug 04, 2011, 19:56 #10669

    OK, few points to respond to. Bob - (not the Bob I hope). Just thank the lord it wasn't Nixon, Reagan or Bush in the White House in 1962, the world would be a very different place today if it was. Paul - Not all great managers win the European Cup/CL. Are Shanks, Revie, Bobby Robson, Alf Ramsey or George Graham all ****e because they failed to? Slug - There may be a Tea Party wing of the AKB crew, but I'm not in their faction so I don't really care. John Evans - It's called an analogy. Much like yours when referring to the simplicity of changing English football culture and a 4 year old - except my analogy was better and much more accurate. Rob - thanks for referring to my rant as 'Guardian-esque'. Since it's one of the few UK newspapers not to write down to the level of a 12 year old I take it as a compliment. Whinger-Out-Now: your confused because I have advocated change and not slated Wenger's past. Thank you for proving the essence of my article perfectly with your rather 'eloquent' rant.

  27. Jumpers 4 goalposts

    Aug 04, 2011, 19:29 #10668

    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz There probably were some good points in here (others seem to think so) but must confess by the time I got to the end of the piece I was finding all rather laborious. A bit like our style of football, death by a thousand passes (in this case words) when sometimes a smart, incisive move is the one that gets results and stays in the memory??????

  28. Shropshire Lad

    Aug 04, 2011, 19:24 #10667

    Bloody Hell, I thought old 'Random Barnet Hills' could witter on but his article before last was crisp and to the point. Perhaps you should give him a call and get some advice on making succinct points! So the gist is look at the complete picture and be careful what you wish for. I read in the Guardian that Ronan Ricketts is looking for a club and he is free - right up Wenger and Gazidis ally! Nasri replacement?! What worries me is that Wenger's glorious obsession with youth and the Boards with thriftiness is getting in the way of a team that with a few additions, could be on the verge of returning to glory. I'm not going senile am I, we did beat Barca at Highbury last season?!

  29. Whinger_OUT_NOW

    Aug 04, 2011, 16:51 #10665

    Christ mate, WHAT's your point? You start out by saying that you think a change is needed and the rest of the 1 million words are all about how Whinger as done this and that, how great he is, how his **** doesn't smell and how it's near impossible to replace him, if not impossible. The crap about English players is just that...CRAP. How come Fungusmoan had no trouble with them? How come he could have an English core for years and still continue to have a few of them?You're trying to fit the evidence into your theory instead of the other way around. If Whinger is so great and almost irreplacable, then can you please let us know why this "greatest ever team" of his career is a laughing stock around the world? That they win 1 game in like what..14 games in the run in? That they lose a cup final to a now relegated team? And why has Whinger NOT managed to win anything since he styarted building a team of his own? The Invincibles had members who came in when GG's players were still around and learned from them. Ask Vieira how many assholes Adams tore him before he learned how to be a B2B. Ask Henry how Keown kicked the **** out of him in training to make him learn how to skip past defenders. Ask Cole what he learned. Ask Lauren how much help he got from Dixon. Etc. etc. Heck, the one time we reached the CL final, it was due to Keown's defensive training shutting out teams but the praise Keown got caused Whinger so much heartburn that he never called Keown back and the results are there for all to see. And if Whinger was so great, please have the courage to explain to me why his own proteges want to leave? Cesc may be a different case. Why Nasri? Even the likes of Clichy and Denilson found courage to put the boot in about winning something and when such dross have the audacity and temerity to say such things, you know there's plenty of things wrong within the club. He has assembled the BIGGEST squad of dross I've ever seen and paid them so much for being dross that it's now impossible for Arsenal to get rid of these high salaried players because they've gotten used to sitting on their ass turning in ****ty performances and getting paid for it. No other club is going to put up with it. Pick up any top player and Arsenal will be just about the last club such a player would want to go to. Besides, unless the player is French or under 19, Whinger would not buy him anyway. Such has become our stock But let's argue nonsensical things about US politics and tea-party and what not, bury our heads in the sand and hope that everything goes away because Arsene Knows

  30. Ben

    Aug 04, 2011, 16:33 #10664

    An excellent article and nice to see some intelligent comments as well. Well done Robert for the excellent research and thought provoking piece. I look forward to reading more of your work.

  31. Rob

    Aug 04, 2011, 14:33 #10661

    Sorry to rain on your 'Guardian-esque' parade but for the record The Tea Party is a grassroots organisation that grew up on the back of popular concerns that the US Government was and is, in the process of bankrupting the country with a lunatic spending and borrowing programme that would do nothing other than debase and ruin the Dollar currency and with it the country's economic future - in as a far as it has one. It attracts a fair share of idiots but that's more than off set by the lunatics who think a trillion here or there can be ignored and has no consequence. As for our Manager, the comparison is far from exact although the fanatics on both sides of the divide do seem equally witless. What is less prosaic is not Wenger but Arsenal Football Club. Ultimately it is that and not one of it's employees or fans that concerns me. Having taken us to up to new highs, Wenger has now set us on a downward path and we can either stick with him on that course, or change tack - and that means getting rid of him - and getting someone in who will try to restore our proper position. I don't see any third option.

  32. Theo's Underpants Designer

    Aug 04, 2011, 14:28 #10660

    CD: "@Bob(post11710) That "well known rabid Republican JFK" was in fact a Democrat!!" - Oh, no, you didn't? I think that was his point matey!!!

  33. Joolz The Gooner

    Aug 04, 2011, 14:26 #10659

    To be fair I think the Pro- Wengerites are just as idiotic with the oh so clever retorts of "go and follow the '61s" being a particular favourite of theirs. The fact that to most of them the club will crumble if their Deity left just adds to the hilarity of it all. Fact is that for all the talk of Wenger's good years, those years are already long, long gone and the sooner his accolytes realise this the quicker the club can move on I would think.

  34. Rory

    Aug 04, 2011, 14:14 #10658

    3,500 words to say that? I think your footballing points good or bad were lost in a sea of words containing too much irrelevent political diatribe. "Clarity of writing usually comes from clarity of thought, so think what you want to say and then say it as simply as possible". This came from the Economist "Writing Style Guide" which I'm happy to plagiarise on this occasion. it also goes on to say don't be hectoring arrogant or didactic. Hmm, we'll call it being 0-4 up and then losing the lead or in this case plot.

  35. John Evans

    Aug 04, 2011, 14:06 #10657

    I love the personal insults although it took me more than a day and a half to get to that point in the first place. All my article was trying to point out Mr Exley was the simple fact that timing helped Arsene look slightly better than what he is in reality. If he had turned up on our shores 10 years after he did would he still have had the same inpact? I think not. If that makes it the worst article ever then fair enough. Everyone has their own opinion. I personally like articles to get to the point and be Arsenal relevant rather than go off on some strange US polictical rant for 26 paragraphs and then mention Arsenal as an after thought. This is a gooner website is it not? Or should we rename it the online tea party just for you Robert?

  36. Ron

    Aug 04, 2011, 13:48 #10656

    Ramgun I think your last line abaout 4th apot sums up many of the problems with how fans perciecve success and failure. That CL has d****ued ALL of the domestic trophies, not just the Cups, it allows bosses and Clubs like Arsenal to claim 'success' where there isnt any and clouds fans minds as how hard it is to get top 4 anyway, notwithstanding that its not genuine 'success', its also ran stuff.We have s game now in which WINNING the title isnt really what it was or necessary, Cups that are deemed a nuisance and Clubs and bosses who arent sure what they should aim for and sacrifice real chances of genuine success on the alter of CL qualification that in truth is a competition that for the most part cant/wont be won ever! Its ever likely that there are so many camps of thought about our esteemeed boss and great Clubs motivations.

  37. chris dee

    Aug 04, 2011, 13:45 #10655

    A fantastic and balanced article,if you are happy with our current status. If you are happy to be the third most successful club in the country,if you are happy never to have won the European Cup/Champions league then fine. But if we want Arsenal,once the biggest club in the world,to become one of the real elite of world football then six years without a trophy is not acceptable. If it is acceptable for Barca,Real,Man United,Milan,Inter,Bayern then we should all zip it.But it is not acceptable to those clubs,why should we accept it? Don't we want to enjoy the success of those clubs,or shall we happy with our lot and shut up,just like Hill Wood wants us to? And yes Arsene is a great manager, we all love him and to be successful with him at the helm would be perfect but how long will we have to read these articles before enough is enough? When it comes to the clubs finances the board is ruthless,if we had half the ruthlessness on the football side of things we would be world beaters.

  38. Slug

    Aug 04, 2011, 13:40 #10654

    Right. And of course there's no Tea Party section of the AKBs hmmm? And the goalkeeping situation and defending isn't black and white yeah! Clown.

  39. Ramgun

    Aug 04, 2011, 13:37 #10653

    Regarding Wenger, the ranters on both sides of the argument can be safely ignored. Regarding President Kennedy, I reckon that the Soviet Union planting all those missiles in Cuba might have had something to do with his response! The final point I would like to make is that Arsenal were a powerhouse between 1930 and 1953 (take out 1939 -1946 as the nation was engaged in something vastly more important)when one considers that there were only 2 trophies available and nobody was potty enough to talk about 4th being a trophy.

  40. David

    Aug 04, 2011, 13:12 #10652

    Robert - even though you and I share differing views on Arsene Wenger (I very much support him) that is one of the most, if not the most, sensible articles I have read on this forum for some time. Numerous articles and comments posted attacking Arsene by regular contributors are of utmost irrationality. You cite John Evans as an example, believe me he is not the worst. Although his exclusive on Fabregas to Real Madrid does linger long in the mind!

  41. Objective

    Aug 04, 2011, 12:48 #10651

    An excellent capture of the zealot who doesn't recognise that he is. Especially since I am exposed to the Tea Party spouters given what I do in the US. And you know what? A lot of Online Gooner unremittingly negative columnists remind me of them. I'm flabbergasted for example by stuff that just gets accepted. Denilson sideways pass, for example. Calling squad members deadwood. Speculating that Tony Adams would return as manager to save us. A welcome injection of some balanced, objective thinking on this site. Arsene isn't Ebenezer Scrooge. Who knew?

  42. The Dec

    Aug 04, 2011, 12:39 #10650

    Nicely written article, i now want you to replace Arsene Wenger as manager

  43. Ron

    Aug 04, 2011, 12:27 #10649

    Interesting. its always worth pointing out (as youve done) that Arsenal nor any other Club south of the Central region have ever been a true 'powerhouse' i.e trophy laden over a good few years. Arsenal are just the best of a rather sad bunch in truth given the number of and the historic rescources of the London Clubs in particular. The industrial heartlands is where the game was born and hence where the real power has for the greater part, historically sat. Quite why so many of our fans cant accpet that is a mystery. You make a good defence of AW given that youve lost faith in him, as indeed have i. Hes ran out of steam and motivation it seems to me as occurs with anything long standing, be it a car or a Gov't. The best years never last. Fergie has at Utd, but hes with a financially unique Club that the modern game has smiled upon albeit one that itself once went 26 years without a title from 1967 - 1992. The sad part of Wengers demise for me is that hes not the sole author of his own decline in fortunes. He does seem to attract bad luck but theres no doubt to me that the ground move and the Board room policies and childish shenanigans within the Club have taken a great toll on him. The worry is that any new boss has the same old dinosaurs to deal with and work under. Yes,hes got many faultlines that have widened down the years but its not all him. I would dearly love the see AW take us back to glory, but the last few years have drained him too much in my view. His body language tells a story and his rantings over the last two years have become bizarre to say the least. His trouble is that hes become a slave to the very circumstances that have brought about his decline and he wont seek to break free of them when he gets the chance. Its very sad as all of the points you make about his achievements are all spot on.

  44. What was the point in selling Highbury?

    Aug 04, 2011, 12:26 #10648

    A lot of things are black and white to me becuase they are so bloody obvious. Whole areas of the team that are in such dire need of improvement that it's so glaringly obvious to everyone are ignored so the great one doesn't have to admit to a massive cock up. Hence playing without a goalkeeper since 2006 and possibly having the worse centre halfs in Arsenals entire history. The only thing to look forward to this season, is it has to be Wengers last. The club is run for the benefit of two people. Wengers pet project to show the world how clever he is by turning kids from shanty towns brought for 12p into European Cup Winners. Which fits in nicely with Stealing Stan who can continue to take money from club to pay back his loans. Wengers tactical ability and organisational skills are also black and white, they're ****!! Seriously though, i do think it shouldnt be forgotten what Wenger has achieved. The 2004 team was quite simply the best ever and I want him to be remembered in a good way. Similar to Cliff Bastin but you wouldn't want him playing up front now though would you. Time to say thank you and move on.

  45. CD

    Aug 04, 2011, 12:25 #10647

    @Bob(post11710) That "well known rabid Republican JFK" was in fact a Democrat!!

  46. Jimmy

    Aug 04, 2011, 12:19 #10646

    @Sean (post 11712) - You might want to check out your facts mate. Herb sadly passed away in January 1934, so although there's no disputing the fact that he masterminded the success we enjoyed during the 30s, he did not win the league in 1934 and 1935 as you have suggested. That accolade fell to caretaker Joe Shaw and George Allison respectively, although I'm sure they would be the first to recognise the part whcih Herb played.

  47. Paul

    Aug 04, 2011, 12:12 #10645

    Mourinho Ferguson Ancelotti Guardiola Hindink and Capello all great managers because they have achieved success in the CL.This is where Wenger fails.Look at the Arsenalteam from 02-04 ateam of great players but Wenger failed to get them passed the Q/F.Even the most loyal AKB cannot defend his record in Europe.He let the 04 team disintergrate replacing them with average players and youth.the result is what we have now.On Wengers headstone it willread "From the Invincibles to the Also rans

  48. Louise

    Aug 04, 2011, 12:09 #10644

    Fantastic article with some much needed balanced argument with evidence. So glad to hear from an educated and still thinking fan.

  49. Trennon

    Aug 04, 2011, 12:04 #10643

    I enjoyed this. A great article that argues both sides of the fence very well. For me I'm still on the Wenger fence but admittedly not as firm as I once was. I still remain hopeful that Wenger can turn it around and end his managerial career at Arsenal on a high. I would love that more than anything, simply because of what he brought to our club and what he achieved in the face of some of the most rediculous transfer fees ever recorded. It still amazes me that we have never once bought what is regarded as a world class player in the Wenger era, never once spent 20 million on a player and yet still every year we compete and finish in Champions League positions. While it doesn't come with silverwear it IS and amazing achievement when put into perspective. Sadly, most Arsenal fans will only see this long after he has gone. I loved your comments regarding "anyone but Wenger". I think it comes mainly from fans that spend more time wishing they were Chelsea and United supporters. They watch the money they spend and the titles it brings them and want Arsenal to be more like them. They care nothing for business and wish only for the 2 to 3 months fix that winning a trophy brings you. Sadly people like this do exist and you will NEVER be able to please them. When Wenger does leave they will celebrate and the new manager will be welcomed warmly. But as soon as things go wrong for him they will turn. they will always turn because they spend their lives being miserable. In fact people like that are only happy when they're miserable.

  50. Matt

    Aug 04, 2011, 11:57 #10642

    Probably the best article I've read on here. Congratulations, I don't necessarily agree with everything you espouse but at least your reasoning is considered and eloquent. If only more of our fans could be this sophisticated.

  51. Harry Barracuda

    Aug 04, 2011, 11:56 #10641

    Not bad, although Clough's last game in charge of Forest saw them relegated. His drinking had long since removed his magical charm over players.

  52. JollyMike

    Aug 04, 2011, 11:41 #10639

    Great article! Pure class! I'm not sure if I want Wenger out, but I want the discussion to be at this level that you bring it to.

  53. Lewis

    Aug 04, 2011, 11:33 #10637

    Awesome article. Some fantastic points on both sides of the fence.

  54. Sean

    Aug 04, 2011, 11:16 #10636

    You state: "...no other Arsenal manager has won three league titles – Wenger has" Actually Herbert Chapman won the title three seasons in a row: 1933, 1934 and 1935

  55. NorfBank Paul

    Aug 04, 2011, 11:13 #10635

    Blimey - how long did that take to write? Good article though.

  56. Bob

    Aug 04, 2011, 10:55 #10634

    Goodness, that was a heavy read - I hardly know where to begin. Well, how about the author's take on US politics: "in my opinion the world seems a much safer place when a Republican isn’t sitting in the Oval office". Apart from the one occasion when that well-known rabid republican JFK took the world to the brink of nuclear war over the Cuban Missile Crisis.... Leaving aside the wretched attempt at an analogy with the 'Tea Party Movement', implying that anyone who does not worship at the altar of Arsene as a fanatic, the analysis of football issues is well wide of the mark. The football landscap has changed, and Arsenal charges extortionate prices unparallelled in England, Europe and possibly the world. It has turned supporters into customers who cannot be expected to put up with the sort of long fallow periods that former generations of supporters did. And very few of the majority who I believe now want a change of manager would diminish Wenger's contribution to the Club in the first 8 years of so of his tenure. He was exactly the right man for our Club then - for various reasons he isn't the right man now, and we are stagnating as a result of the cosy compliance between a board who are happy to chug along with the status quo and a manager who is more than happy to do the same.