Quality tells

Online Ed: Arsenal exit Carling Cup



Quality tells

The Ox: Arsenal’s best attacker


Ultimately, the difference between the two sides in last night’s Carling Cup Quarter Final could be summed up in the price tags of the attacking partnerships the two sides put out. Dzeko plus (after 40 minutes) Aguerro against Park and Chamakh. As Doktor Schneide texted me, “Their goal was reminiscent of Bergkamp, Pires and Henry in their pomp”. He followed it up by saying, “If we ever have to rely on Chmakh and Gervinho we are screwed.” Should Robin van Persie befall injury, one does imagine that Chamakh will be the one to get the nod.

Arsenal did have a couple of similar situations to that which led to City’s winner over the course of the game, but they broke down with an inaccurate pass or lack of ball control. Park’s chance was the best the home side enjoyed on the night against a resolute City defence. In both that instance and later against the Ox, Mancini’s stand-in keeper showed there are options beyond Joe Hart. Last night was the tale of strength in depth. Unsurprising that the league leaders came out on top.

Most fans were content with the performance. Arsenal certainly could not be accused of a lack of effort, just wit. The defence played surprisingly well given some of the personnel selected. Gooners turned up more in hope than expectation. It wasn’t the greatest of spectacles with the two sides stifling one another out – no doubt it was a case of defences on top. The pantomime booing of Samir Nasri was marginally amusing, the home crowd in decent voice.

The club have doubtless enjoyed the extra revenue provided by three home ties in this competition, even at reduced prices. Interesting to note that the price of the programme returned to the normal £3 last night though. As there is no compulsion for them to ever lower it to £2 anyway, I can’t get excited about that, especially as I rarely buy the thing anyway.

This season’s Carling Cup has given some valuable game time to players who would not get much of a look-in normally. That Wenger, pre-match, said he considers them all first team players is a bit of a nonsense, otherwise we would have seen more of the Ox, by far Arsenal’s best attacking player last night. It would be nice to see him get some opportunities from the bench in other matches. Doubtless he will start in Greece next week anyway, as will many of the line-up that faced City.

When one considers Ignasi Miquel is primarily a centre back, Arsenal’s entire backline consisted of good old fashioned stoppers. Perhaps this was the reason that Wenger’s men looked good at the back but unimaginative going forward. So the Gunners exit, with no disgrace. Beliefs about the paucity of attacking options were confirmed, but aside from that, last night did not tell us too much we didn’t know, except that Squillaci and Djourou are capable of having decent games for the club.

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  1. GoonerRon

    Dec 01, 2011, 13:52 #15515

    Some real signs of encouragement in the game. Frank - you say our squad isn't deep enough and our full backs were centre backs - well I don't mind a bit of versatility within the squad to be honest, and we are without 3 of our first 4 full back choices through injury. I think Chamakh is suffering from a crisis of confidence - it's obvious that his best form was when he had a consistent run in the team in the first half of last season (I didn't hear too many on here call him garbage then, incidentally) so we aren't seeing the best of him now he is a bit part player. I think Park needs time, writing players off after three appearances is ridiculous, he currently reminds me of Eduardo in his first few months - working hard with little end product. Also interesting to see no credit whatsoever to the likes of Squillaci who didn't put a foot wrong against Man Citeh's £70m strikeforce.

  2. Mark

    Dec 01, 2011, 13:16 #15512

    It was a great performance by the team, with only a couple of exceptions. Chamakh gets worse with every game, which is difficult when the starting point is 'absolute uselessness'. He's an embarassment now - one that needs to be sorted out. Frimpong needs to calm down a bit. Also, why does he keep on trying to chest the ball rather than head it? Is he worried that his head might fall off on contact? All in all, a really good effort from the youngsters.

  3. Mike

    Dec 01, 2011, 8:43 #15501

    The answer is simple - sign Messi, that should sort out the problems up front. If we sign Snjieder that should take care of the midfield and if we sign Vidic the should help the defence - we must do that during the transfer window... I wish people would get a dose of reality here- firstly how many quality strikers are on the market at the moment - there is talk of Padolski-good if we can get him but unlikely - to those who say you get what you pay for, go and speak to the likes of Torres Carrol and Tevez and see how many goals they have scored between them for the past year. Even look at Ashavin, the clubs one time record signing. Most posts, even the negative ones have good things to say about the talent bubbling under, therefore do you buy someone costing tens of millions or do you give these youngsters a chance to prove themselves. And to those who think that finishing in the top four all the time is not an achievement -wait till we finish out of it.

  4. CanadaGooner

    Dec 01, 2011, 3:53 #15500

    Chamakh is a squad player right now - for those complaining about his lack of goals, he scored heaps before coming to Arsenal and still does for Morocco. We're also moaning about Diaby and his injury problems: I know a player who has been at Arsenal for a few seasons and is yet to complete a full season, his a certain RVP (imagine if Wenger had listened to you moaners and offloaded him?). We lost a Carling Cup match and it's been a poor week for several other clubs this week (moneybags-chelsea, Tottenham in Europa, Man Utd losing to Palace etc). My only hope is that we dont cock-up at Wigan at the weekend - as I dont think an excuse along the lines of 'tiredness' would suffice!

  5. DW Thomas

    Dec 01, 2011, 2:20 #15499

    Agree that Frimpong and Coq looked pretty good in addition to the Ox. Yet, they are still raw, especially Frimp. They do seem to want to win more than some of our older, more experienced players though and should be rewarded with more first team minutes. Still need a creative-passing center-mid with vision and quick/step-ahead thinking. Wishire has this, but who else? Another comment from Wenger about the top four and how we should of won last night. I can't stomach his comments much longer. They are the same old b.s. excuses for failure once again. Sure, the top 6 or 7 are all pretty close, but you need depth when you are in all the major competitions. What about Torres in January? Probably way out of our penny-pinching price range, but he needs a new team imo. Arsene needs to buy quality, proven reinforcements or else give these young, eager players more time in the league which will give much needed rest to our key players. Really wanted the team to win this game and show Arsenal are still a side that can beat anyone. Love to hear the stories/rumors of the tunnel bust up between Frimp and Nasri. That shows his desire to play for the red and white. Just hope he is not another one to jump ship in a few years if we don't win anything.

  6. simon

    Nov 30, 2011, 23:39 #15498

    we (and wenger) learned quite a bit: 1. that AOC is ready to replace AA23 on the bench 2. That Coq can cover midfield if needed 3. That we need to buy a striker I think we'll see most of this team play again in greece next week and i think we'll be grateful for missing two hard games against liverpool in january on top of the 6 already scheduled and 7 in december in our difficult chase for fourth. Wenger's biggest challenge right now is getting goals out of the team from someone other than RVP so i do expect AOC to appear on the bench now.

  7. Shropshire Lad

    Nov 30, 2011, 21:23 #15497

    This striker thing, although on the face of it obviously true, cannot be explained by the personnel changes in the summer. The Arsenal teams under Wenger have never had problems scoring goals. Na$ri and Fabregarse were hardly prolific. Most fans on this site wanted rid of Barry and the Mexican and up until now we were lucky if Sir Percy gave us half a season, so that can't be it! Perhaps we should stop worrying. Wally is getting better and better, the Ox has arrived and better still our defense has turned up for the first time in at least two seasons! Park will improve and Chamakh will sadly remain the 'new' Barry. The sadness last night was that we did not play with attacking full backs (probably because they are all injured) as that may have broken the deadlock before the final strike from ****eh. The uplifting sight for me was the maturing performance of the two midfielders. Frimpong will become a cult hero - he has the attitude of a throwback to Adams, Storey, Keown Viera and Petit. Bould must be a very proud man this morning. Great work.

  8. Ronster

    Nov 30, 2011, 19:25 #15494

    So Man City continue to tick all the necessary boxes on their way to world domination.Qualification for the Champions League (yes they may not reach the last 16 but remember it took Wenger 3 years to get out of the group stages),that first confidence boosting trophy The FA Cup (Wenger was unable to motivate his potless squad in The League Cup Final),a historic 6-1 thrashing of Man Utd at OT (we're the laughing stock of world football after that worst defeat in over 100 years at OT),unbeaten so far this season in the league having already negotiated away fixtures at Old Trafford,Anfield and White Hart Lane AND now that first away win in N5 since 1975.Thanks Arsene...was that a consideraton when you selected your team last night? Wouldn't it have made more sense to throw caution to the wind and select your strongest line up and fight tooth and nail to protect that record? Put down a marker..not over our ****ing dead bodies.Man City were therefore able to play in almost pre season mode and despite some valiant individual displays our weak links were eventually punished by quality that is unforgivably absent in our squad.

  9. Charlie D

    Nov 30, 2011, 18:41 #15492

    Why did we sign Chamakh and Park?Because they were cheap thats why.Forget that they are rubbish they didnt cost much.And we are supposed to be happy that the club is self sufficient.A famous manager Bill Shankly said football currency is trophies nothing else.He was right its not how much profit you make.If i wanted to support someone who makes profits i would follow Tesco's.The sooner Wenger Gazidis and Kroenke p*ss off and someone comes in and wants to win trophies cant come quick enough.Gooners laughed when the Glaziers took over.Who's laughing now?Until then expect to see signings like Chamakh and Park who are not fit to wear the shirt..And dont complain when our best players leave which RVP will this summer.While season tickets rise

  10. Double Agent Alert!!

    Nov 30, 2011, 18:30 #15491

    If you were a Tottenham fan, very happy with Arsenal's trophyless last 6 years and wanted more of the same, what would you do? I'd come on our messageboards to big-up Park, Squillaci and Gervinho, and constantly defend Wenger no matter how many title chances he throws away, no matter how many poor mentally-weak players he buys for far less money than he has available, and no matter how many times he sticks his head in the sand and refuses to see the bleedin' obvious. Stand up Mandy Dodd, pride of White Hart Lane.

  11. Peter Wain

    Nov 30, 2011, 17:59 #15489

    What did we learn about last night.? Well If we had played until Christmas 2012 we still would not have scored with either Chamak or Park. Both are clearly not good enough and it is a typical Wenger failure to invest in quality back players which again shines through. It showed what next season will be like when RVP has left. How an earth the board allow this to happen is beyond me. We need a top draw striker in January. Will we get one? No chance with Wenger going on about how big the squad is. If it is so big why do we not pick anyone but Chamak or Arshavin bot of whom consistently play like drains.

  12. Dan h

    Nov 30, 2011, 17:58 #15488

    AOC was superb last night performances like that should be rewarded with more involvement with the first team squad.Lack of confidence & quality in our back up strikers was evident last night.Park had a great chance didn't take it tight games with few chances often come down to these small margins.@GaryFAustralia was told Nasri aimed a slap at Frimpong missed then showed a fantastic turn of pace to get into the away dressing room!Better off without 'characters' like Nasri laughable how he was looking to be subbed after 30 mins.Podolski being linked is interesting plays all across the front line & good turn of pace 18 months left on his contract but can't see us paying anywhere near what Cologne would want for him up.Don't forget a couple of years ago AA was leading the line injuries & because we knew Chamakh was a done deal on a bosman in the summer sadly it hasn't worked out.

  13. Michael Preston

    Nov 30, 2011, 17:17 #15485

    One thing needs to be emphasised: for some time, supporters have been p***ed off by the lack of commitment in the team on the pitch. That's not something that could be said about last night. I thought I saw more spirit last night throughout the team (especially from Koscielny, Frimpong, Coquelin and Chamberlain) than I have for a long time. If that spirit is maintained, it will have great significance for the future.

  14. clockendpaul

    Nov 30, 2011, 17:10 #15484

    50 million still in the bank, and you see park and smuck up front! All we're doing is bringing the kids through for the likes of city or barca in a few years time again. Ambition... not at this club!

  15. Nick

    Nov 30, 2011, 17:03 #15482

    If Wenger needed last night to show him that we need a quality striker then hes got no business running a sunday team on hackney marshes let alone the ARSENAL hes done wonders on a ltd budget but hes also been almost criminally remiss in the transfer market since the money situation improved if he takes as long to supplement our attack as he did the defense then were stuffed for another season for christs sake hes on something like 7mill a year and he cant see whats in front of his face i feel like shaking him sometimes especially when he procrastinates over everything even substitutions my patience with him and his mental strenghts is almost at an end

  16. Parkster

    Nov 30, 2011, 17:02 #15481

    Dust in the trophy cabinet thickening.

  17. MikeW

    Nov 30, 2011, 16:52 #15479

    I took the opportunity to let Alan Smith know at the match last night how annoyed many Gooners are at his constant negative comments and digs at the Arsenal team. What is it with these ex-Arsenal players who constantly snipe at the club, I also hear that his second -half comments were toned down a bit. Am I alone in the idea that any ex-mancs or scouser players would have more respect for their clubs and the supporters and stay clear of running down the clubs that allow them to sit in their commentary boxes.

  18. Merse69

    Nov 30, 2011, 15:57 #15476

    Confidence and desire on the pitch, some passion (for once) in the stands - this was a tough game with a lot of positives despite the result. What the match report doesn't tell you is that Arsenal bossed the midfield for much of the game, with Coquelin, Frimpong and Oxlade-Chamberlain more than holding their own. There was also a real solidity about the defence, despite the number of reserves.

  19. DW Thomas

    Nov 30, 2011, 15:52 #15475

    Is it me, or was their goal not the result of terrible defending yet again? Kos and Benayoun both missed their tackles and we get countered. Ridiculous! Djourou was either way too slow or simply was clueless about where Aguero was. No anticipation on where the play was going. This team is depressing so many times. No RVP, no chance at top four. Don't cham and Park were too bad, where is the service? After their goal Wenger was shown pulling up his socks. Why wasn't he Showing more disgust. Read his quotes on the official site. Says it all. Weak links again cost us points. Ox does look good though. Why doesn't Wenger play him at least as a sub is beyond me!

  20. Whinger_OUT_NOW

    Nov 30, 2011, 15:23 #15474

    SOme people are pointing to Chamakh and Park's singings as indicators of Whinger having lost the plot. Folks, one only need look at Diaby's 60k/week contract to know the manager lost the plot a while back. 6 years he's been here. Plays 1-2 games, shows us he's below average and then gets injured. And Whinger offered him a contract extension because both speak French. Who cares about the CC? We were never going to win it because sooner or later we were going to stop meeting the Shrewsbury's and meet someone halfway decent. Forget about City's money. We would have still lost had we met say, Spudz or Pool. We lost to a relegated Birmingham after all. The same story will repeat itself in the FAC and CL the moment we meet a decent side. Mark my words

  21. Barbara

    Nov 30, 2011, 15:13 #15473

    Wonder what RVP was thinking last night? Most likely - "I'm out of here next year".

  22. GaryFootscrayAustralia

    Nov 30, 2011, 14:53 #15472

    So do we know if Manny planted one on KD Na$ri or not? Mind you, I wouldn't blame Manny if he hadn't managed it...KD Na$ri's chin is smaller and softer than Jamie Redknapp's tie knot...

  23. Mandy Dodd

    Nov 30, 2011, 14:47 #15471

    Good post Jeff, but regarding the negativity, worth remembering that not all on here are Arsenal supporters, some clearly are but some support a small club and have grown increasingly bitter over the years in our shadow. Some posts reflect that. Overall, we played well, bossed large sections of the game. Park needs time and games, I think Chamakh may well be off in Jan. Ox was awesome, as was Kos and Squillacci looks like the new found defensive training is of assistance. People slagging off Gervinho on here, now that is silly - he is without question one of the buys of the summer. As has been mentioned, very difficult to compete on a level playing field with a team able and willing to lose £350m over two years, and has been picking off our players, not especially because they really need them, but with the aim of destablising this team. Still, that is around £75m they have put our way, and as things stand now, we do not look any weaker for having lost those players...at all...

  24. mark

    Nov 30, 2011, 14:31 #15469

    Gervinho is a good player and its too early to write him off, he just needs competition to bring the best out of him and some finishing lessons from henry. As much as i like ox, he is not ready to start but would make a good sub at the moment. leCoq on the other hand could come in from time to time to relive the pressure on the midfield.

  25. Ramgun

    Nov 30, 2011, 13:32 #15467

    Trophies since we won one - 25 and counting

  26. ed enough

    Nov 30, 2011, 13:28 #15466

    Chamakh is a joke and should be offloaded at the next available window in Jan....never has been good enough for the Arse...His overall positional play is that of sunday league standard..

  27. Nick

    Nov 30, 2011, 12:57 #15463

    Oh we did ok.Thats what most Gooners are saying today.But thats not good enough.Being just ok will not win you trophies.I know the board have settled for 2nd best and that 4th place it the height of our ambitions but when the fans are happy with a narrow defeat then you have to worry.The front two last night were signed by Wenger in the last 18 months.Do you need any more proof he has lost the plot?And how bad must the French league be if Gervinho was one of the top players in it last season.Judge his skill levels with that of the OX.And how can Wenger justify putting AA23 on the bench before the OX? We need to sign 3 players in jan.No ifs or buts.3 players to even challenge for 4th place......................But we wont

  28. Jeff

    Nov 30, 2011, 12:52 #15462

    Where's the glory in what the petro dollar arabs from middle eastlands are doing? Can't believe the negativity on here. Would anyone dispute that we were the better team on the night? Even if citeh do win something, it's completely hollow. We've got a bigger wallet, so what? Where's the glory in that. They've gone from everyone's second team to a morally bankrupt bunch of cheats. Example, the bloke on loan at the spuds (won't say his name) Citeh are paying over 60% of his wages, he can play against all of their rivals, but not citeh. Fair? Get's over the squad size rules too. What's to stop them doing that over and over? On to last night, I thought Coquelin, Frimpong and the Ox were all excellent and as a team we deserved to win. I do agree that we need another striker and let's hope Wenger addresses that in January. Regarding criticism of Gervinho, I feel that's very early. Remember Dennis and Thierry, not to forget Pires all took time to settle and let's face it, he contributed more in the time he was on than na$ri did in the entire game. Keep the faith, there's a long way to go this season yet.

  29. Sammy

    Nov 30, 2011, 12:49 #15461

    Chamakh is a disgrace.. Slow, lazy, no desire.. Why did he stay on?? Should have put arshavin on way earlier for chamakh.. Have gervinho arshavin and the ox up front. Would have caused some amount of problems.(although none are centre forwards I know) Chamakh is not fit for my local park club.. I just can't believe the chances he is getting.. He needs to go.. For free.. I don't care ..what a waste of space, so frustrating !! Arfhghhg

  30. Stevesam

    Nov 30, 2011, 12:33 #15459

    Last night emphasized the Club's total lack of ambition. We lack strength in depth and quality. City were poor and beatable. They roll on, we stagnate. Are we happy to lose a home cup game ? I would suggest this competition was our best opportunity this season to win a trophy. After the disgrace of last season, this was the chance to make amends to the fans. Are we still a top four club ? RVP watching this game probably shall see the lack of desire at the top of the Club to confirm that 'second is nothing'. It is clear that our only aim each season is to finish in the top four. I am sure the biggest concern for the majority of our magnificent support is - if we are offered £50 million at the end of the season for RVP, will this make business sense to the Owner, is this sustainable business ? Kos was my MoM,I believe the whole team tried their best but some were asked to play out of position which added to our problems.

  31. What was the point in leaving Highbury?

    Nov 30, 2011, 12:26 #15458

    Overall I think there were plenty of positives about the game last night including it must now surely be blindingly obvious to the most stubborn manager in the world that we must buy another forward come January. I like the look of Frimpong (Can he still play for England? Really hope so), Coqulain and the Ox. We just lacked a cutting edge. In fairness to Arsenal, City built that squad by losing £200M per year. It's a totally unfair playing field and should be outlawed straight away. I want Wenger to spend more but only what we have in the bank. I honestly do feel what City are doing is cheating as it's a total misrepresntation of their club. Stretching yourself and losing say £30M becuase you've signed a couple of players too many is one thing but losing £200M a year means you are not Manchester City anymore. It's giving a totally false impression of the club. Don't expect these UEFA FFP rules to have any teeth. The sponsors won't allow for top team to be banned from the Champions League. Good news as well as apparently Frimpong had that lesbian look-a-like Nasri round the throat after the game. Good lad.

  32. Theo's Bikini-Line

    Nov 30, 2011, 12:24 #15457

    Think the headline to the article was missing these two words: 'Lack of'.- especially with regards to our two forwards.

  33. half empty

    Nov 30, 2011, 12:18 #15456

    rvp's expression of disgust and frustration when our reptilian striker failed to throw himself at the last cross spoke volumes. rvp cares- chamakh doesn't.

  34. Mark

    Nov 30, 2011, 12:12 #15455

    we sit proudly alongside villa and everton and will be looking up at LFC and Spurs. yes we are better than villa and EFC but over a season we will not be better than spurs, LFC or Chelsk hence our destiny is 6th place and this was set in stone as best case once our club decided to have the close season that it did

  35. Remind Me Why We Left Highbury Again

    Nov 30, 2011, 11:08 #15450

    Plucky losers that should go alongside "Just one of those days" as our catchphrase.Wenger loves the CC as he can always use the inexperienced team excuse when we get knocked out.No team can ever hope to win anything with a front two of Chamakh and Park.They are the worst two strikers we have had at the club since Hawley and Chapman.Gervinho really worries me.He came with a big reputation but has flattered to decieve.Head down run into blind alleys no end product.Another dud from France? Chamberlain should be on the bench in front of AA23 for every game.He reminds me of Rooney at 18.So another trophy passes us by with only the FA cup left and we all know Wenger treats that the same as the CC.So its another trophyless season.

  36. BNG

    Nov 30, 2011, 10:52 #15449

    defensively we looked good and the midfield battled manfully and more than held their own against citeeh and then we come to the two clockwork clowns upfront who really sum up OGL perfectly..........bargain basement garbage plucked from obscurity from the French first division, I reckon Bendtner and Vela would have been an improvement on thick n slow.........can't wait for the transfer window to see which non entity is signed from over the channel by inspector clueless

  37. Jekyll

    Nov 30, 2011, 10:42 #15447

    Hopefully what the game has done is demonstrate to Wenger, in bright lights and blaring foghorns, how much we need another striker. The precedence of recent seasons would suggest he'll do nothing, but then the club goal of top 4 looked secure in those seasons, it was to push on in a title challenge we needed to buy, which would have been considered an unnecessary outlay. The one season he did buy was when 4th looked in danger (Arshavin), as it does this time, so perhaps there is hope.

  38. Frank

    Nov 30, 2011, 10:38 #15446

    Anyone who thinks our squad is strong enough even to make the top 4 think again.Both full backs last night were CB's.The front two would struggle to make a league one team.Chamakh is awful and did Park touch the ball more than twice?.And when you see Gervinho you wonder how bad the French league.No RVP no front line.If our manager cant see we need a striker in january he should be shown the door.The shining light was the OX who has that star quality.This kid has something Walcott hasnt a trick in his locker.Walcott is just pace.This kid has much more.But you look at the bench for the league games and he is nowhere to be seen.Really cant see Arsenal ever winning anything again under Wenger

  39. RDT - 4

    Nov 30, 2011, 10:15 #15445

    Chamakh is a total disgrace and not fit to wear the shirt. We should sell him in January even if it is at a loss.

  40. aj

    Nov 30, 2011, 10:04 #15444

    The atmosphere was good,the midfield was excellent and our youngsters as ever are great players of huge potential.The problem as always with Wenger is his constant purchases of average players from the French league.Being near the top of the scoring charts in France is of no consequence in the Premier league. Signing Podolski would give us a player with nearly 1 in 2 goals for Germany,who can also play left wing.He has experience in a strong,quality league.We could sell powderpuff Chamakh and Arshavin and have a deeper,stronger squad. Do it Wenger,it will stop some of your frustration on the touchline.

  41. Brigham

    Nov 30, 2011, 9:37 #15443

    Chamakh is a waste of space and victuals and he is about as effective as a striker as a pea-shooter is against a charging bull elephant. Coquelin and Ox had a good game and Frimpong put Na$ri firmly in 'its' place too. As you say, last night was more evidence that without RVP up front, we lack any cutting edge and it is something that Wenger needs to sort out pronto!

  42. will

    Nov 30, 2011, 9:12 #15442

    What suprised me was the way Arsenal pressed the game, haven't seen that since Chelsea last year, coquelin and Frimpong looked good enbough for the first team but as you said Kev apart from the Ox we looked poor upfront. Gervino's first touch is worrying poor for this level and the less said about our morroccan the better. Its RVP or bust as we' ve always known.

  43. IMAC

    Nov 30, 2011, 9:06 #15441

    Agree Kevin. I could easily pick 15 strikers from the championship who are better than Chamakh and Park. Chamakh looks like a player who knows he is leaving in January, let's hope so. Park works hard but lacks quality at this level, I'm convinced he was bought just to increase support in Southern Asia thus bringing in more money. It still worries me how easy we are to defend against if a defence is organised and get bodies behind the ball, we have no idea how to break them down. We made Kolo Toure look as solid as a rock, something he hasn't been since pulling on a City shirt. We don't have anyone who can score from outside the box and only AOC will have a go. Just hope AW doesn't coach this out of him.

  44. Any Old Iron

    Aug 30, 2011, 2:13 #12164

    Has Wenger ever done tactics? In the past he relied heavily on GG's granite backline, and real quality in Pires, Henry, Viera, Parlour, and Ljungberg not forgetting DB10 who would carry the fight into the oppments half. It's no accident, or a numerical fluke that we've lost the last 3 finals, all collapses invariably due to no foresight, indiscipline, and no game changers. Right now, i'd take a less fluid, much more robust cohesive unit, well drilled and win 1-0 all day long. Not, dithering teetering calamitous disasters as in Djourou and Koscielny. Did he cost 10m? FFS! Wenger's defencive nous is zero. He never spends big on the rearguard, as he doesn't see value in it. Lehman 1m, Campbell free, Sagna 6m. Vermaelen at 10m is still small beer compared to other STILL TOP 4 CLUBS purchases. Wenger is to blame. Wenger and Rice out now, backroom too. An organised transition, not Chelski style night of the long knives is preferable, but If he has to be pushed then so be it. Shame Usmanov and Dein don't have an input. Wonder why....

  45. Peter Sartori

    Aug 30, 2011, 1:51 #12163

    Yes! With 442, the wide playing midfield players are automatically positioned to provide cover for the full backs, the central midfield players for the centre backs. The defence has an automatic strength in depth which is taken away by 433.

  46. Exiled-Gooner

    Aug 29, 2011, 22:55 #12160

    Wanting Wenger to change and you be wanting a long time as to Wenger it's is way and that's it!!The board have given Wenger full control on the footballing side and that has been detrimental to our club because now he has no-one who questions his managerial way.We all know for the last 3-4 seasons this squad needed quality experience brought in and we get the same tripe that he buy only if there improve the team??His tactic's have proved fatal as the Manure game showed and his youngsters he put so much emphasis on were made to look like a Sunday league side and god knows what effect it will have on them??.His signings(Chamakh) have proved not good enough yet persists in playing them hoping there by a miracle there turn into clone's of Adams and Bergkampf but as always turn into circus clowns.His has mishandled the youth by constantly loaning them to lower league and at times struggling teams in which their learn nothing and so have no bearing on there education but the only exception is young Jack who had a stint at Bolton and look at the benefit!!Instead he could(like Manure have done with Wellbeck and Cleverly)let them have a stint in lower leagues but get them a season loan in a P/L team and then use them as subs or against lesser P/L teams which will be more affective when there turn comes to forge a 1st team spot.No,the only way to get us to play a 4-4-2 and attract the quality players now is to replace Wenger and the backroom staff and install a manager and backroom staff who aim is to win not nuture.

  47. Mark Mywords

    Aug 29, 2011, 22:07 #12157

    Simon, I don't necessarily disagree with what you have to say, but can you get out of this really irritating habit of starting every sentence with "I"? I said this. I said that. I told you so, 6 weeks ago. As I've said all summer. You come across as a complete pain in the arse.

  48. Age

    Aug 29, 2011, 21:17 #12153

    Agree 100% with this article. I think Cahill is a great prospect but he'd be wasted at Arsenal because the defensive system is broken. Zonal marking on set pieces doesn't work and we obviously don't practice holding defensive lines in training. Sad thing is the wenger way is being taught throughout the club.Their was a warning last year when the reserves lost 10-1 to villa. Defeats like this show that there are fundemental problems at the club.

  49. TENERIFE GOONER

    Aug 29, 2011, 19:43 #12147

    ex season ticket holder from Devon ,lived in Tenerife for 6 years,i like to read and listen to you people who are regulars,"REGULARS KNOW".The good thing for me yesterday was i thought Ramsey played well and tried.What really upsets me is,i believe we have a goalkeeper who if his confidence is not shot to bits going to be a Great.Now last season,i posted on 606 that i had been in Stoke [my daughter lives there],watched Stoke v Blackburn.I said we don't want Samba he 's not a good enough footballer.On Saturday i watched Blackburn ,and Samba changed my mind .With him i could visualise many clean sheets.At the level i played at i was reasonable rated,but i had Mike Head[sadly no longer with us]doing most of the dirty jobs,in front of me.Samba can do the dirty jobs,someone else can look good.My feeling is Arsene does not understand this concept.One last point ,just been watching Lee Dixon on Sunday's game.Always remember we played WIMBLEDON [9 years without a league defeat at Highbury,how did they manage that Arsene]1990 we were 2-1 up half time, i think we need to score again to win ,in the dying seconds Seaman comes to punch slides off his fist into the net.I, like a guy i talked to on the tube really enjoyed the game.What i remember was Lee Dixon's face.He was devastated.It,s missing.

  50. dan

    Aug 29, 2011, 17:58 #12140

    No tactics, no fight, no shape and you now see the sum of AWs genius when not propped up by some poor sod like Fabregas, GGs defence or Dein's signings. You watch that disgusting excuse for a footballer Rosicky on MOTD2 for the third - this lump of utter cack who we supported through his lengthy injury - one of our 'senior' players pulling Carl jenkinson in front of him as a shield then walking away without once looking where the ball has gone. Diaby, Denilson, Rosicky, Almunia, Fabianski, Vela, Djourou, Schillaci, Eboue, Walcott, all spineless, clueless, supine - just like Wenger and I want him gone

  51. allybear

    Aug 29, 2011, 17:02 #12137

    Ronster is correct in saying its the most embarrasing defeat in the history of the great club. I have been a fan for 40yrs and i think its a disgrace that AW is allowed to destroy my club.If a team is depleted by injuries etc then the squad should be strong enough to cope.We all know that the squad is weak so the blame is with Wenger for not buying decent players. His latest target is a Korean striker. Is this man totally blind about the defence and midfield? Man U always beat Arsenal at OT and remember we were hammered there 6/1 a few years ago. Time to change the manager and coaches.

  52. maguiresbridge gooner

    Aug 29, 2011, 14:43 #12126

    Djourou and Traore especially djourou should never be allowed to pull on an arsenal shirt again my god djourou couldnt even wear a pair of shorts that fit absolutely useless.

  53. Brigham

    Aug 29, 2011, 14:19 #12122

    Yesterday was one of the most insipid and embarrassing performances I have seen from an Arsenal side for some years. I have to agree with the author of this article and say our tactics are at best woeful, we cannot defend as a unit at all and yes, I know it was not our first choice defenders, but the same panic defending happens with them in the team. We are rudderless right now, lacking in any sort of confidence and if we are not careful, will end up fighting against relegation. I think Gazidis should be sacked - he has done nothing to improve our club whatsoever, he tells more lies than a politician and I have to question just exactly what he does at the club. A defeat against Swansea next home game and I can see there being some real vitriol and unpleasantness aimed at the board. I have a bad feeling it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

  54. jhonnyhawleylovinggooner

    Aug 29, 2011, 12:54 #12101

    club should firstly repay all arsenal fans at old trafford their ticket price plus £100 goodwill payment.silent stan is not a fan but even he must be worried about his long term investment.not as worried as me though. i have followed arsenal from the 1960s and i don't want to critise the young players yesterday,but this is the worst we have been from the mid 1970s.arsene/club appears leaderless,too soft and trusting, an easy touch agents.lets hope of a massive injection of marquee and top players and a top defense coach plus a return to 442.we do not have the players for 433 or it will be a long campain. i am not too sure any of are targets would come now. who would join a club in crisis were the manager may not last to christmas?

  55. dando

    Aug 29, 2011, 12:00 #12098

    My thoughts exactly. Whatever players we bring in (if we can get any to sign now), will make no difference without a 180 degree turn in tactics and coaching. Martin Keown has written on several occasions how the famous five were drilled over and over again. They didn't worry about slow, slow, quick, quick, slow passing, they learned to defend, first and last. We have to pay whatever it takes to get a defensive coach good enough to turn our clueless defenders into a unit and let Wenger concentrate on the front six only. Notice I said Wenger. Whilst I believe he hasn't moved with the times and every team from MU to Plymouth can defend against us and hit us on the break I cannot think of anyone else to replace him at short notice. This will be his last season, mark my words, but unless the back room is sorted and fast we could be looking down the barrel of a humiliating season, not just the first three games.

  56. WestUpperRed

    Aug 29, 2011, 11:29 #12090

    Simon im two years a head of you as i gave up my season ticket at the end of 08/09 which was the best decision i could have made. Gary Neville of all people said it well yesterday when he pointed out United have a young team with an average age the same as Arsenal BUT they have an understanding of the game and play like men. Arsenal's young players look like kids and the difference is Ferguson. We moved to Emirates to compete with Europes best and at present we are 5 years away from competing with Englands best but were winning titles before we moved!! Its a joke!

  57. Adidas Away kit`89

    Aug 29, 2011, 10:54 #12082

    No longer fit for purpose. This landslide needs to be arrested. How soon in now?

  58. SilverGooner

    Aug 29, 2011, 10:42 #12076

    Spot on Simon. The lack of tactics has been a major problem for a long time now - particularly the teams ability to defend. It beggars belief that Wenger has done absolutley nothing about it. If DAN H is right about what Arsene told RvP on Friday then that is proof that Wenger has well and truly lost the plot. In which case it is time for him to go.

  59. expat

    Aug 29, 2011, 10:24 #12069

    so frustrating, thousands of us can't be wrong in knowing what needs to be done, yet Arsene stubbornly refuses to listen or take his head from the sand. so what if we've to pay over the odds for players we need to remain a top 4 club, it's just small change to the 2 billionaires that own the club. but it more than that,it's the lack of discipline/tactics throughout the club, anyone get fined for unnecessary yellow/red cards. Anyone coached in how not to react with the ref and avoid the unnecessary yellow leading to the all to familiar red? Do we have a defensive coach/tactics? if we do why are we so defensively poor, never any improvement week on week. how many other clubs supporters have that awful sinking feeling every time we concede a corner or free kick within 25 yards. Wouldn't it be better to see Steve Bould sitting next to Arsene every week, as his defensive/assistant coach instead of the madame taussard waxwork of pat rice in his shorts. I mean what is that all about people in their sixties just don't do shorts, does he think he's a sub? nearly there, hill-wood, fossil, need new wood preferably not from the same family. Gazidis, useless hasn't a clue, 3 days to go and still no quality targets in sight, haggling over a million or two, ridiculous. Bring back Dein today & new signings guaranteed by tomorrow.

  60. north bank

    Aug 29, 2011, 10:01 #12063

    we as fans need clarity on the transfer issue do we have funds or not? absolute shocking tactics yesterday lambs to the slaughter.rosicky and arshavin two experienced international players were appalling. djourou and koscienly clueless van persie isolated walcott average at best traore simply awful. arsene has lost the plot. never in 30 years of supporting the club have i been so disallusioned

  61. Pradeep Kachhala

    Aug 29, 2011, 9:23 #12055

    A dark dark day for Arsenal fans - something is rotten at the club and either the press or the AST need to find out the truth and exactly who is to blame - if Wenger is being stubborn and refusing to buy - sack him - if it is the board , well protest will rid us of them and ironically we have Dein and Usmanov waiting in the wings

  62. JackL

    Aug 29, 2011, 9:19 #12054

    This has been an accident waiting to happen for a number of years. We have had an arrogance in particular for home matches where the players have assumed we would get a good result because they felt that it was ''the Arsenal" and the result and outcome would just happen-the slow starts then perhaps drawing or a goal down by half time, then chasing the game. because the result would usually come in the end then it would be alright. AW would be too afraid to 'hair dryer' the players and we would just continue in the same manner. Well that attitude finally hit the buffers yesterday. Can you imagine a United team playing like that, even if depleted. How embarrassing seeing Jenkinson telling Theo to 'F off'! Look at Rooney's goal-virtually no one jumping in the wall when the kick was taken, Rosicky just ambling around during one free kick neither jumping to stop the kick or attempting to close Rooney down-highlighted on MOTD. It has long been the case that only half the team are fighters and winners with the other half just picking up their cheques-and sadly Cesc and Nasri were in the fighter group. AW has made an effort to get rid of some of the deadwood-but not enough. As has already been mentioned, even 2 or 3 new new players will do little to address the tactics and commitment, Steve Bould must be promoted to sort out the defence. I really fear mid table, and I'm not sure yet whether AW should stay or go. If the inevitable were to be considered then Denis as manager and Thierry as his assistant. While that is only fiction at the moment, and if AW stays, he needs a new assistant immediately, Pat Rice has no ideas of his own, just picturing him looking up at the directors box for ideas against Udinese! Every game now is a big one-I'm not even sure about Swansea in 2 weeks! Funnily enough though I thought Arshavin had a good game. Oh well!!!

  63. Simon F

    Aug 29, 2011, 9:08 #12051

    Gutted - Yes we have suspension and injuries but the facts are that the players on the field / bench representing our club are simply not good enough. Look at the players that have left over the last 6 years and then look at the players that replaced them and you will clearly see where the problem is!! Arsene clearly states that he will not buy players who he feels will not improve the squad... Well the list of ins/outs will prove his judgement wrong!!!!

  64. Dan h

    Aug 29, 2011, 9:02 #12050

    I am probably going to get a bit of stick for what i am about to say.I have alluded to unrest between the management regarding transfers.I have a good friend who works at the club & he isn't the programme seller or a steward before i have the mickey taken out of me!He rang me last night & told me RVP went to see AW on friday asked would we be strengthening the squad AW told him the squad we have is strong & couldn't give any assurances.RVP got up straight away & walked out very unhappy this meeting is well known around the club at present im sure other people may back me up on this!With regard transfers we obviously target young players the secondary targets are players with 1 year on their contracts before we look elsewhere.Chamakh we got on a free but bid a low amount with a year left on his deal.Gervinho & now Cahill as the club believe these players can be got for below market value.The last thing i will leave you with is before we signed Squillaci last year we went in for an english cb don't be too excited it was Steven Taylor of Newcastle.He also had a year on his deal at that time before re-signing with them we bid in the region of £3m.The club has no direction off or on the field at present all the management are to blame not just AW.Yesterday confirmed a lot of our fears how long will this be allowed to continue?Like i say i was going to wait until the window has closed to post this we may still buy but any selling club has us over a barrel we gambled trying to do late deals again im really angry for SAF to feel sorry for an Arsenal team shows how far we have fallen.

  65. Rich

    Aug 29, 2011, 8:48 #12049

    completely agree, i have been saying the same for 2 seasons now. We have no tactics, no proper coaching and we never set up to counter opponents. How the hell are new players going to fix these things?. I feel sorry for the younger players as they are not getting the correct coaching and may never fulfill their potential at Arsenal unless all this is addressed.

  66. Ronster

    Aug 29, 2011, 8:45 #12048

    A supposedly intelligent man would have learnt something after working with Seaman,Dixon,Winterburn,Adams,Bould, Keown,Parlour,Cole and Campbell for 10 years.A supposedly intelligent man would have had the foresight and humility to promote some of these legends to take care of the defence and let him concentrate on what he does best.We could have witnessed every Arsenal trophy winning record being torn to shreds.Instead we have just witnessed one of the most humiliating defeats in the history of Arsenal Football Club.

  67. HowardL

    Aug 29, 2011, 8:13 #12044

    What we have seen as a slow decline has turned into an avalanche. You are quite right - who would want to join Arsenal right now. The tactical approach needs rebuilding from top to bottom and even before yesterday - but definitely now - I have lost confidence in Wenger's ability to turn this around. It's a sad day for Arsenal Football Club.

  68. Shropshire Lad

    Aug 29, 2011, 8:10 #12043

    Well, Cahill for one and any other central defender or left back who has proven ability in the premiership and who has the belief he can oust those who occupy those positions currently ( varmaelen accepted but still appears injury prone). Also an out and out striker must fancy their chances. The club is still well respected for it's manager and style of play and performances in the Champions League so despite this dreadful blip players will want to join. Whether 'Ivan no bollocks' can deliver on the negotiations is a different problem altogether.

  69. Pat

    Aug 29, 2011, 8:08 #12042

    Spot on mate. You seem to be repeating the same tactics!! Even if they dont work. It appears Arsene Wenger has no Plan B and is incapable of springing any sort of surprise on the opposition. We need new players, we need a very defensive minded assistant manager and we need new physios. There is something wrong with our training regime if players keep gettin injured!!!!

  70. Andy

    Aug 29, 2011, 8:02 #12040

    This hurts me to say it but Arsene has to go now. We need to stop the downward plunge before its to late. He has no idea in how to motivate players(good or bad), we play with no passion and that is not acceptable.

  71. Michael

    Aug 29, 2011, 7:57 #12039

    Excellent article. I have been saying for some time that Arsenal need to be more direct or the team will never be as consistently successful as Manchester United. The game on Sunday was an object lesson that the fast, direct attacking route is far more effective than ponderously pass into into the opponent's box. Inevitably, by the time you get into a scoring position there are not enough attackers forward and too many defenders back, especially with teams that park the bus. Look back at the great goals from the Invincibles years and the attacks were much quicker and more direct.

  72. Joe S.

    Aug 29, 2011, 7:46 #12038

    I agree that this was a collision waiting to happen. Here you had two contrasting teams at different stages of their preparation. We all know that Arsenal have begun this season as a disorganised rabble. God knows what the coaching staff and back room boys have been doing during the off season. The same faces, mind set and bull **** denominator.By contrast Man.U's hunger and drive have been evident since the Community Shield final. There were the defending champions,displaying a passion and commitment we can only presently dream of at Arsenal. The pride in lifting another trophy was obvious from the players to the coching staff ( Yes a real team, not an isolated individual on the verge of a nervous breakdown ) and above.Beating their rivals it was clear United had done their homework - new talent recruited, "deadwood" cleared, out failed tactics reassessed. They have moved on from the Barcelona final and learnt. What a shambles we are in comparison, a bunch of penny pinching incompetent nitwits with the audacity to rip off the fan base even further.Living in Australia,I went on line this morning expecting a 0 - 3 result and gave a quick blink when I saw the 8. But it was sadness more than anything. In the cicunstances of injuries, a depleted squad and being under prepared on a technical level it was bound to happen. Where to from this point? Well if heads must roll they should start at the top, and Wegner must know that he isn't the genious autere he may believe and needs some serious help which won't be coming from his present assistants. Whatever the club is in a mess and the only consolation for this season is to stop the rot and then rebuild.

  73. Sarf Lunden

    Aug 29, 2011, 7:23 #12037

    Quite restrained comment. Only trouble is the man who doesn't spend the money, the man who decides on the tactics and picks the team would still be in charge. The man who has changed Arsenal from a team that went a season unbeaten to a team that gets hammered 8-2. A man who inherited the best back four in the country and now plays 19 yo Charlton reserves against the premier league champions. I could go on but its boring.

  74. Phatrick

    Aug 29, 2011, 7:06 #12035

    We can change tactics later, for now, I'm afraid the priority is to spend some frigging money.

  75. nahom kebede

    Aug 29, 2011, 7:04 #12034

    arsen wenger is extra selfish person! he never think about the suporters of the team all over the world rather than pownd. yes he like money so much, that is why now he is gambling with the team. he has to leave the team now. he is the most ugly foot ball profetional.........

  76. bergy

    Aug 29, 2011, 4:09 #12030

    The excuse wenger and board keep on giving is that there is no value in the transfer market and that there few out there actually better than what we have. So we have had to resort to gambles and toddlers. FFS! And his obsession with plucking players from the French league...I know he's French but the French have been rubbish the last 5-6 years. What amazes me is that FIFA's number 1 team now is Holland and we have not looked at their first choice players,many of whom are available for relatively cheap. Van der Vaart for 8m, Stekelenburg for 5m...and some of their younger players like Erik Pieters and van der Wiel are promising fullback all of whom would have been available for less than 10m. Even Sneijder for 26m is value for money in todays market though his wages would be problem. And Robben, surely right up there with Messi and Ronaldo as the best 3 players in the world at the moment, no matter how injury prone he is (not more than RVP). He went for 16m...bloody bargain if you ask me. There are players out there...world class players for value. Wenger has just ignored them. Now we are paying for it. Last I heard Wengers after a Korean striker for 3m....super quality indeed.

  77. win AFC

    Aug 29, 2011, 2:43 #12027

    It pays to be a disciplinarian take Alex Ferguson for example, Can you imagine if Man ure had lost by eight goals, Would he have an after match interview NO he would be in the dressing room telling his players whos for the chop, unlike Wenger protect the players always.

  78. kimo

    Aug 29, 2011, 2:43 #12026

    Agreed 100% with everything you said. A 4-4-2 is a necessity...and has been for years...for the reasons you said. How in the world do you walk into Old Trafford with what amounts to a pub lge side and try and play all out attacking football against the single best counter attacking squad in the world? Insanity.

  79. Peter Ratcliffe (USA)

    Aug 29, 2011, 2:21 #12025

    For the past month I have been on the internet every waking hour searching for updates and opinions about my beloverd Gunners, Hoping that I would read something that inspired hope and made sense. With so many obvious flaws in defence and tactics in our failure toward last season I was hoping to see some changes in coaches over the summer But there were none. This article makes more sense than any other I have read on this painful subject.

  80. Bob3

    Aug 29, 2011, 2:18 #12024

    Been reading a few comments sections of newspaper articles tonight and there seems to be two lines of thought, one is board won't give Wenger money, other is wenger has money but won't spend it. I used to respect Wenger..I remember when he first came and he was gracious and calm, that time he gave Sheffield Utd the replay in the FA cup - it was admirable...but over the years he has become more and more bitter and unsportsmanlike. I don't buy the theory that the board are not giving him money, otherwise why spend £12 million on a league 1 player like Chamerline? I think what is frustrating is that, if he went on holiday and the fans could vote on the players we wanted to see in the club, i.e. 2 centreback and a left back, 2 more strikers, left winger, and an experienced midfield general (Parker and Belamy anyone? guys with fight and passion) we could reply on wenger to come back with those players at his disposal and create a good team. It's just he seems too stubborn to submit to what people have been saying for years and admit he was wrong. However, we can all point fingers and criticise easily, it has been frustrating over the years but he's always over-achieved on minimal resources (sometimes needlessly). I say give him until end of October and then call judgement. The transfer window will have elapsed and some of his players will be back. Some of you calling for his head may be right, but after all he has given the club, lets at least give him 2 months and get behind the team, they need our support more than ever.

  81. DW Thomas

    Aug 29, 2011, 2:09 #12022

    Spot on! If we add Hazard, et al, what will they learn? At the very least get a quality defensive coach in. Kos was not that bad. Djourou was awful. Traore terrible. With two defenders playing so badly, any team would have a ton of chances. I give Jenkinson a break as he is young and thrown into the lions den-Wenger's fault. Kos did alright, but seems quiet and no where near Vermaelen's leadership attitude. Van Persie did not show leadership either. The players all know reinforcements are needed, now! Tactics can come later, first a proper squad who will give every last ounce of sweat for each other and the fans. They get paid enough don't you think? Wenger needs to get a reality check from someone at the club. Otherwise, we start looking like Liverpool first half of last season. Plus, new, quality signings will boost fan attitudes and maybe the Emirates will turn from a library into a true noise-filled fortress again!

  82. Ghost of Highbury

    Aug 29, 2011, 2:02 #12021

    A lot people were angry and frustrated about the future of our club.many of my friends already figure out the position of our team at the end of the season and they fear that Arsenal this term cannot achieve the top 4 finish.But I'm not frustrated nor too much angry.I want that result badly.Believe me or not.Why?????? cause I do believe this squad isnt capable of achieving the top 4 finish.Everybody knows that except our stubborn manager.tonight result gave the sucker punch of his belief.I dont mind nurturing the youth.But more importantly we live in present not future.Now its time to think about the present.I hope this time Mr. Wenger for the sake of his, most importantly for the sake of the club's dignity will bring some experienced quality players.Bring back the glory of Highbury.