Not Good Enough

Reflections on Monday evening’s fare



Not Good Enough

Andre Marriner: As bad as Arsenal?


I am sitting on the tube, trying to come to terms with what I have just watched. This under-performance is up there with all the others, and this season, in particular, there have been far too many.

Firstly, well played to Wigan. I stood around to applaud them off the pitch because they deserved it. And let’s face it, somebody had to, because their own meagre support, all 200 of them, looked like they were a part of one of those tiny wedges of cake that had been left over at a wake.

Secondly, we were unlucky enough to witness yet another in the series of incompetent refereeing performances by Andre Marriner. Doesn’t anybody realise that this bloke is well out of his class in the Premier League? But let’s not moan about the ref because we need to move on to my third point, and that is precisely what happened to our lot tonight? Was it just a matter of our players believing that all they had to do was to stroll around for 95 minutes and collect three points? Because that’s what it looked like.

We were well spooked by having to change ends before the start, and it certainly didn’t help matters by being 2-0 down by the eighth minute. Nor did the sight of Wiggy Arteta hobbling off. On came Ramsey, but we all wished that he hadn’t bothered, because he contributed very little for the remainder of the evening. But hang on, we had the best part of 90 minutes to put it right so all we needed to do was to keep playing our football. The Verminator led the way by showing future Gooner captain leadership with a bullet header, and we should have been on our way. So why didn’t the equaliser ever come? For starters, our midfield was a major disappointment. Rosicky and BennyHill both buzzed but lacked any real creativity. One Song ambled his way through the game and Walnutt was completely anonymous. In fact, I am becoming more and more frustrated with Walnutt’s lack of effort.

There was no improvement in the second half. We witnessed far too many Deckchair Denilson-esque passes and very little of anybody taking the game by the scruff of the neck. Percy was starved of the ball and Fatty Santos couldn’t work out if he was an attacker or defender and was caught out on a regular basis. The busier of the two keepers was Chesney, which spoke volumes.

The game was crying out for The Ox, but Weng got his tactics hopelessly wrong again by swapping BennyHill for Eboué-With-a-Syrup, who produced nothing. With less than 20 minutes to go, The Ox came on for the hapless Djourou, and although he started to make things happen, there seemed little support from his team-mates to latch on to anything coming their way. The Odious Chavs must have lapped up tonight’s performance because, unless we raise our game significantly on Saturday, they will run straight through us.

Finally, let’s dwell on Monday night’s lack of tactics and team management. Pat Rice was content to rest on his sun-lounger all game and Weng seemed to occasionally flap his arms around like a demented penguin and then sit down again. These antics didn’t impress me, nor did they inspire his players. If Weng gave any sort of halftime team-talk, then nobody listened. And it just happened that, sitting in the opposite dugout, we saw a bright young manager, who, with very few resources at his disposal, got his tactics spot-on. If Weng is going to carry on in this vein, perhaps it’s time to seriously consider alternatives.


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66
comments

  1. Chris

    Apr 20, 2012, 18:46 #21412

    Well I completely diasagree with that 'under achiever' - the evidence shows that he has achieved more than any other top PL manager has with the resources available, in terms of PL and CL points/progress. Given that even McLeish / Birmingham can manage to win a trophy with enough luck, I don't think it would be a better measure of success than what has been achieved.

  2. under acheiver

    Apr 20, 2012, 16:44 #21407

    Chris - No I do not think it is trophies or nothing but at 7 million quid a year, yes I am talking about silverware as a measure of the mans success. Not his ability to spend very little overall in the transfer market.

  3. Chris

    Apr 20, 2012, 13:43 #21397

    under acheiver -"The facts are he has had NO success over the last 7 years." So Arsenal have won no games over the past 7 years then? If that was true, Wenger WOULD have gone by now :-) I take it you are one of the peculiar breed that thinks its trophies or nothing then? In that case, might I respectively suggest you consider taking the journey to Old Trafford, or even the Tower of London, because its clear that its silverware, not Arsenal, that you are interested in.

  4. under acheiver

    Apr 20, 2012, 13:09 #21391

    Chris - "Check out the facts - Wenger over-achieves sporting success relative to money spent on transfers and wages." The facts are he has had NO success over the last 7 years. If success to you is about putting money into the pockets of the directors and a huge salary into Wengers bank account then you are quite right, he has definitely over achieved. Earning probably the highest managerial salary in the premiership and winning nada. That is a hell of an achievement.

  5. Chris

    Apr 20, 2012, 11:20 #21380

    R Meade - firstly, you say he has splashed cash on rubbish but he has spent more wisely than any other top PL manager, in terms of success gained as a result. So other must be splashing more on rubbish, right? And secondly, the accounts show that Arsenal spent as much as they could within the debt-laden self-sustaining policy of the board. Within that policy (which I don't like any more than you!!) no more could be spent. If like 'under achiever' (post 23566) (and me for what it's worth) you have a problem with Arsenal spending less than clubs of comparative financial size, then your problem is with the board and the model, not Wenger. As others have suggested within these comments, changing Wenger would not help if the current constraints (which include the wage structure, not the just the size of the budget - which of course Wenger's managerial excellence has increased!) placed on the manager by the board remain . If, like me, Andrew Cohen passionately wants what's best for Arsenal, he should direct his campaign at the board, as Fozzy's mate as amusingly pointed out above. But he won't - is that because, despite his protestations, he has a personal issue with the manager, I wonder? I strongly suspect that working under the pressure the boards constraints produce in a habitual winner like Wenger has strongly contributed to some of the less desirable personal traits that have turned many against him. That and the unjustified criticism he receives from many fans as a result! He deserves to be lauded for staying at Arsenal, not vilified.

  6. R Meade

    Apr 20, 2012, 10:31 #21377

    Chris I don't think anyone disagrees that Wenger can spend less than others to achieve top four. But it's his choice what to spend or not too, our wage bill proves we have no problem splashing cash, just most of it on rubbish. The fact is 7 years no trophy is not good enough and until someone can prove Wenger has not been given anymore money than he has spent on players, it's 7 years wasted.

  7. Chris

    Apr 20, 2012, 7:46 #21374

    @under schiever - I'm getting fed up of hearing simplistic nonsense peddled by frustrated fans who don't see the big picture. Check out the facts - Wenger over-achieves sporting success relative to money spent on transfers and wages. This is evident if you do the (very straightforward) maths.

  8. under acheiver

    Apr 19, 2012, 23:19 #21372

    I`m getting fed up of hearing how Wenger is over achieving. This is the 4th richest club in the world and we have the 4th highest wage bill in the premiership. So where is the over achieving. What people really mean by that phrase is that he is a very good wheeler dealer in the transfer market. That is the only area where he "over achieves". The fact that he over pays the cr@p that he buys is another story...

  9. Chris

    Apr 19, 2012, 19:23 #21363

    @600NER - I don't need to defend him - the facts do that. It's your opinion that he is making the same mistakes each year but still he continues to produce results in excess of those predicted by the resources at his disposal. And he is largely responsible for the size of the resources in the first place! It's SOO easy to sit here and point to various details and say that he has made mistakes x, y, and z. Yet over all, Wenger's Arsenal are over-achieving each year. The specific details are irrelevant when the big picture demonstrates continuing over-achievement.

  10. fozzy's mate

    Apr 19, 2012, 18:22 #21361

    Gooner pete - I have oft criticised weng on these pages and feel he is a shadow and pale imitation of the once serene man we all revered. However removing him will not lead us to actual silverware rather than weng and the boards qualification trophy. I said at the end of 2009 season we would not win another trophy under this supine regime. Stumbling over the line in 4th place is their utopia. The serene Weng of 2002 may have done a far better job than the flapping. Official blaming/berating vintage of 10 years later but to oust him would make no difference. A replacement would be found of the ilk of wengs current backroom. Only the end of the Denver dough trouserer, mr self sustainable and the old etonian fart will make any impact.

  11. 600NER PETE

    Apr 19, 2012, 17:09 #21358

    Re Chris....Not really sure how anyone can still defend Wenger when he continues to make the same mistakes (already well documented so not worth going into now) year after year. A lot of supporters, me included, can't wait for the day he leaves so that we can begin to get our club back. Unfortunately, even if he did go, with this board we could still well be in a big mess. Sad days for us long term supporters of Arsenal and also sad for the state of the game in general. Sky sports said it was going to be "a whole new ball game" when they first came on to the scene. They were right, but sadly a lot of the "new" has been to the detriment of enjoying the game that we still desperately try to love,

  12. John Abrehart

    Apr 19, 2012, 15:10 #21354

    Oh! Was the tv commentator on Monday Peter Drury? Never mind, the same applies!

  13. jjetplane

    Apr 19, 2012, 14:54 #21352

    Makes me laugh all those who thought some great big corner had been turned. You thought this season's beginning was bad. Wait til the summers' over.

  14. Chris

    Apr 19, 2012, 13:04 #21340

    Oh - and Andrew Cohen - to remind you a few more facts you have conveniently forgotten. "Thirty per cent [loss rate], with our essential players staying fit." So, four fullbacks out simultaneously out for several consecutive games - are full backs not essential to our game?! Willshere out for the entire season - is he not essential, especially after departures of Fab and Na$ri? Arteta - his injury directly contributing to both Wigan goals. Please, you selectivity is transparent and does you a mis-service - it completely undermines your argument!

  15. Chris

    Apr 19, 2012, 9:49 #21334

    @ Andrew Cohen - you continue to eloquently argue that the manager, not the players, is to blame for all of the team's defeats and it is clear from your post that this is part of a strategy to 'create sufficient noise to see him removed'. I challenge you to support your argument with an explanation of why you believe the manager is to blame, despite the FACTS (not your own personal opinion, which I have seen often and forcefully presented here but NEVER justified) demonstrating that Wenger has performed better with the resources at his disposal than any other PL manager.

  16. John Abrehart

    Apr 19, 2012, 9:29 #21333

    For all the appreciative comments about the Wigan manager Martinez, it would have been him who instructed his players to roll on the ground as if they had been shot when there was a robust challenge (but of course get up if it appears that the ref is about to call for the physio; I call that tactic a Drogba) and to employ all the usual time wasting tactics, such as the keeper taking the ball to the opposite side of the goal area to which it went out of play on every occasion, a rule which should be reversed in my view. In common with other views, I agree that we need a leader in defence,(McLintock or Adams mould) in order to instil some defensive discipline and toughen up. We are so naive at times, on at least two occasions on Monday we took free kicks with a moving ball, only to be pulled up by fussy Marriner and we constantly have more cards issued against us than our niggly, time wasting opponents due to our impetuous tackling back when we lose the ball. Another moan, does anyone agree how crass the Sky tv coverage has become? Apart from suffering Tyldlesley,(he of the verbal diarrhoea), who never shuts up spilling out meaningless claptrap and speculation - I turn the sound down, but the cameras are constantly being focused on individual players, full sceen head shot so the you can count the hairs in their noses. This is when there is a crowd reaction in the background, as there was on Monday, to some time wasting or whatever but it seems the guys at sky call the tune and decide what we can see and what we cannot! What I also find sad is that they must have cameras focused on both benches continually, just to pick up the slightest reaction for Tyldesley to launch into even more gormless rhetoric. Bring back Guy Wolstenholme and lets hope that the chavs are still knackered by Saturday lunchtime.

  17. Andrew Cohen

    Apr 19, 2012, 8:32 #21332

    It really is time to stop blaming the team. They never stopped running, especially Rosicky. The Manager does not know what he is doing and until we create sufficient noise to see him removed, he will stay there, wasting our time. Sadly, there are still some that support him. Their faith is fanatical and in the face of all reason. 10 games lost. Ten. 30% actual loss rate. Thirty per cent, with our essential players staying fit. The AKB's will stay faithful even unto the metaphorical managerial grave because they cannot imagine a world without the great man. There is no end in sight I'm afraid. We just have to wait for the chickens to come home to roost.

  18. GaryFootscrayAustralia

    Apr 19, 2012, 7:23 #21331

    Ok, i've turned my comedy dial down to zero so I can answer people's replies to my previous silly comment. Tony Evans, Ron, Ronster, and Raphael "Match Ball On The Programme Cover" Meade - I agree with you about lack of gumption. An Arsenal team of far less individual quality and technique beat the best team in Parma's history in a cup final because they carried 22 huge bollocks around in their shorts for the whole match. Like you I feel the current team would have lost that through lack of concentration and application. Please appreciate that due to geography I now follow from a long distance away, and the detachment has given me the space to develop a sense of humour about the way the club's administration currently steer what was once The Arsenal into global brand marketing oblivion, whilst the bizarre on field meltdowns continue. Whilst cranking the sarcasm dial back up, all else I can add is to say that the replacement for Arteta's injury wasn't any particular player off the bench, rather a whacking great question mark in the middle of the pitch.

  19. Moscow Gooner

    Apr 19, 2012, 6:37 #21330

    Interesting to see Cesc s comments on lack of tactical advice/coaching at Arsenal. I think we all recognise that AW is not one of the game s great tacticians but he compensated for this in the past with the ability to bring the best out of (young) players. Is that still happening? Debatable. I d also appreciate it if we weren t lectured endlessly on the 'we only spend what we have' theme. AW studied economics - he must appreciate that every business has to use debt financing at some point in the business cycle! If they didn t the world would be stuck in permanent recession. Two points: if he really believed in this approach why didn t he resign when we went heavily into debt to build the new stadium? And why are we not even spending what we have? (And that could be increased by a handy 30 M if we offloaded the dross...) In reality AW has been charged with securing a certain level of return for shareholders - and transfer spending comes a poor second. (See Kroenke s comments a few months back on taking a return out of sports investments.) The board are comfortable with achieving 4th place for the next 25 years - if they can get a nice little dividend each year. We should not be: Bertie Mee to his players at the end of the 68/69 season: 'We are the Arsenal: we don t celebrate finishing fourth!'

  20. Wombledin

    Apr 19, 2012, 3:00 #21329

    Don't worry, we'll almost certainly beat a tired Chelsea next up who will be saving themselves for a trip to the Nou camp. You know us, we always play our best football against teams who actually play proper football back at us, and no way the spuds or Newcs will catch us now. 10 games lost and 43 goals conceded...means nothing, who cares. Still being comfortably in 3rd with those statistics just proves that defending is overrated like Wenger says. He is again vindicated in his philosophy of never investing much money in defenders and goalkeepers. What a goddam genius this season has proven him to be yet again.

  21. Munitionsman

    Apr 19, 2012, 1:05 #21327

    Absolutely spot on regarding the manager. Time to go. AVB might like a crack and there are no egos in sight in the colney creche

  22. Theo's Bikini-Line

    Apr 18, 2012, 22:55 #21323

    I bet a fair proportion of those that voted they'd prefer 'comfortable in 3rd' (which was always a joke option anyway) to being in Chelsea's position are feeling a little bit foolish now eh? And so they should because being in with a chance of winning the FA Cup and the CL should always be preferable to scrapping it out for a position amongst 'the best losers'!! The sooner the manager and Board recognise that fact, the quicker we'll get back to be the real Arsenal!!

  23. Fozzy

    Apr 18, 2012, 22:42 #21322

    For all those who said they enjoy the banter with Fozzy's Mate, I would like to thank both of you. I would have replied earlier but I was out buying a large quantity of well rotten Eboue for my back garden. A word of advice - you need to treat Fozzy's Mate gently. He has this weird thought process about his hard earnt cash for his season ticket disappearing into the back pockets of some old Etonian duffer and a mythical yank that nobody has ever seen. In fact, I was just mulling over the fact that the Titanic cost £200M to build. By way of coincidence, the latest Liverpool team also took £200M to build. One of them is a sinking ship. The other sits on the bottom of the ocean. Weng will no doubt be happy that Dalglish has still got a job cos when you compare the two, Dalglish makes Weng look rather good..... #overratedtwat

  24. Joe S.

    Apr 18, 2012, 22:41 #21321

    With the average quality of the players we have at the moment I'd take any points no matter how they are realised but when looking at the bigger picture the finger of blame has to be pointed at the person who has put this team together.In reality we have such a small squad of players to chose from because of the deadwood and other unproductive trash taking up valuable recources. This accumulation is the result of years of bad judgement and poor decision making. And it is still going on, Why resign Djour? Did anyone actually watch Park before making the deal? As a manager I don't think Wegner any longer has the nous to make astute tactical decisions nor inspire his players to chase the big prizes. Just wach how we play Chelsea on Saturday. More than likely the game plan will be to pass the ball sideways and try to do what Barcellona couldn't. The Chavs will sit back and counter attack against a team that is closser to being Barcellona's reserves. Regarding our boss's future there are too many personality issues involved for him to seek support or trust the judgement of others. With the number of promising managers and coaches appearing in England, Spain , Germany and Italy Arsenal's long term development will be severely hampered if we do not snap one of them up soon and start the rebuilding process.

  25. Fozzys mate

    Apr 18, 2012, 20:36 #21318

    Maguiresbridge - good to see we are giving you a laugh as well as ourselves. Its quite easy to find figures of fun in our supine, sickening hierarchy. As well as the DTT who has both a syrup and stick on tache, we have Mr Self sustainable and the old etonian/fart/fool. With those 3 in charge what chance do we have? Add to the mix Dick "law to himself" our chief deal maker, who disappeared for 5 weeks to Costa Rica to sign a striker who couldn't get a work permit, well need I go on?

  26. The Frase

    Apr 18, 2012, 20:12 #21317

    Fellow Arsenal fans are so depressing - a win is a win, why disect a result and turn it into a lucky late goal - its what happens in this level of football after 90 minutes of sprinting and mental focus. Ok Wigan lacked this - but we are 3rd and have Wilshere and Podolski to step up. So support the team with some positivity.

  27. GaryFootscrayAustralia

    Apr 18, 2012, 19:19 #21316

    I can't believe you lot took me seriously! But I take clockendpaul's point seriously, mid - 90's ticket prices at the airline bowl would be, to use a mid - 90's term, "skill"...

  28. Sam

    Apr 18, 2012, 19:05 #21315

    I thought my lasting image of Wenger was going to be as a truly great manager who transformed the Arsenal team. Which he did, lest we forget. But now I think my memory of him will be the penguin sideways arm flap of frustration, with him in his daft oversized anorak puffa coat, then the post match whining. It's beyond parody. That doesn't make me anything other than sad. Cesc interviewed today on how he has learnt about tactics from Guardiola, whereas at Arsenal there were none; he was just free to do what he liked. Presumably against all and sundry. Wenger is an educator and developer of young talent but has severe limitations these days as a coach. However given the Board are skinflints, if he did leave, who knows what bargain basement manager they'd inflict on us. Just wish Wenger would be less arrogant and would hire some help - like Fergie has done.

  29. fozzy's mate

    Apr 18, 2012, 18:59 #21314

    I stayed to the end to give wigan a clap but wouldn't call those leaving early a disgrace. Like many I can't afford to live in london any more so can sympathise with those shooting off to catch trains home. As my bro said we won't score again if we play all night. I always stay, as having been at games when we have won the league in the last minute, won the fa cup in the last minute and also at games where we have lost 4 cup finals in the last minute I always await late drama. But won't castigate those who don't. Football has sold out so completely hassle for fans is the last thing the league or our club worry about!

  30. maguiresbridge gooner

    Apr 18, 2012, 18:56 #21313

    fozzy's mate i think the use of nicknames by your mucker is hilarious and your own contributions the denver dough trouserer heard it before but always good for a laugh combing his syrup counting his dough haven't heard that one its good to see a sense of humor and giving us a laugh we certainly haven't had much to laugh about this season but i actually think you both have an obsession with wigs.

  31. AFCasap

    Apr 18, 2012, 18:55 #21312

    well said "arsene is a liar" the truth....how anyone can trust wenger and his "tactics' (walcott!!! the mind boggles) to do the job when its needed or to even look close is a deluded AKB end of....this season is what? 3rd/4th/5th? who knows with this lot, the only thing in this anniversary year of THE ARSENAL that stands out, is the nightmare 8-2 humiliation demolition by none other than manu and the AKB's like their leader, just shrug it off as just another result

  32. Ronster

    Apr 18, 2012, 18:39 #21311

    GaryFootscrayAustralia.Yeah,very average players but Jensen (League Cup,FA Cup and Cup Winners Cup) and McGoldrick (Cup Winners Cup)both have silver polishing duties to perform in retirement admittedly due to King George's ability to flog a dead horse! P.S. Hillier also picks up regular tins of Brasso to buff his League Title medal(16 appearances 90/91).

  33. R Meade

    Apr 18, 2012, 18:07 #21310

    Garyfootscray low point mid 90s? With those players you mentioned and others as bad we made two euro finals in a row winning one both times beating sides far better than us, oh and before that winning both domestic cups? Not too bad I'd say. It was not all great we know that but we would not have gone seven years without a trophy if this side had some balls and a manager who knew how to win.

  34. Chris

    Apr 18, 2012, 17:25 #21309

    Tony Evans - well my first game was a 2-1 victory over Man Utd so that settled it straight away! My dad still remembers me complaining ceaselessly during the latter part of the match, when we were endlessly rolling the ball back to the keeper, that we could easily get another one if we tried - so maybe I'm a natural Wenger convert! (I was only 11 at the time though)

  35. clockendpaul

    Apr 18, 2012, 17:16 #21308

    Garyfootscrayaustralia, can we have the mid 90's ticket prices then as well

  36. Ron

    Apr 18, 2012, 16:22 #21307

    Garyfootscray - Yes, it was poor, yet i dont once ever recall that team inc that motley crew ever rolling over without a fight at least or just not caring or being frightened of other players/teams or ever not showing an understanding of team 'shape' or work ethic despite the chronic standard of football. Its your memory that flawed mate and when people jump in a time machine in maybe 20 years time to revisit this weak willed, arrogant lot of bottlers we ve got now, they ll find much to whince about and wonder why and how Arsenal ever had become a soft touch.

  37. maguiresbridge gooner

    Apr 18, 2012, 16:12 #21305

    good piece fozzy sad but true hard to believe professionals can get spooked about changing ends but i suppose nothing would surprise us about this team.I am just as frustrated with walcott myself yes completely anonymous again as somebody said on here yesterday he'll probably be motm on saturday and get his £120k a week then go missing again. Santos certainly needs to improve before he becomes another djourou the question has been asked so many times why does he persist in playing out of form players and keep in form players benched or take off players playing well is there any other manager who would do it especially this late in the season with every point crucial ramsey is so out of form i'm sure he knows it himself and can't wait for the season to end. Well i guarantee they'll show no complacency on saturday a win is a must.

  38. Tony Evans

    Apr 18, 2012, 15:57 #21304

    GaryFootscrayAustralia - Sorry Gary I don't see your point. We can all pick some awful Arsenal midfields at various points in time and of course the current side is nowhere near as bad as some of the dross we have watched down the years but so what? As far as I can see most of the comments are bemoaning the lack of guts in Wenger's current / recent teams and surely you must agree with that.

  39. CanadaGooner

    Apr 18, 2012, 15:45 #21303

    The fellow that posted comments about 'lack of motivation' has it spot-on! There cant be any other tenable reason other than complacency if you have a team that turns up against Spurs and drops points against Blackburn, Woves, Swansea, Wigan, QPR..... You only have to look at the 10 games we've lost this season and you'll see very few exceptions (e.g. the 8 - 2 drubbing at OT). Hell with tactics. The only tactic against Wigan should have been: go out there and hammer them! at 2 - 0 down, you only had to study the demeanor of some of our players to see why we havent won anything in 7 years.

  40. GaryFootscrayAustralia

    Apr 18, 2012, 15:04 #21301

    Hark at the snipers. If you really want something to gripe about, build yourselves a time travelling machine and set the clock in reverse, until you arrive at the mid 90's low point when the midfield consisted of McGoldrick, Carter, Jensen and Hillier. With Bartram in goal.

  41. Brigham

    Apr 18, 2012, 14:00 #21299

    Monday's performance or lack of it just highighted even further that there is still a long way to go before we can consider challgening for trophies. A very lacklustre and at times shameful effort. Compare our efforts to that of Wigan, who fully deserved their win, and it is plain to see we still treat 'lesser' teams with contempt and feel we only need stop onto the pitch to get three points! Wigan attacked with verve, pace and tenacity and they defended like Trojans when needed. Wenger needs to sort his life out and stop blaming the officials for each poor result. Stop flapping around like a demented penguin and try barking orders and advice to the team Mr Wenger, be constructive and spend less time in the fourth official's ears. Yes, Al Habsi took too long over goal kicks, free kicks etc, but who can blame him? The ref was crap, but we should have been able to overcome Marriner's ineptitude and fought our way back for three points, but the truth is we couldn't and our manager lacks the motiviation to get them fighting, which is why we have lost TEN games this season. Shape up, or ship out!

  42. Treble Double

    Apr 18, 2012, 13:42 #21298

    We were poor on Monday - the defending was shocking and our inability to get something out of the game was worrying. Saturday is a big game, win that and we will be fine for champs league next season, lose it and we could screw it up. Let's not dwell on some of the obvious deficencies of Monday's play but pull together to try and make sure we support the team to get over the line. Arteta will be a big miss and who replaces him may well be key to us winning the game. I fancy us to bounce back once again and see off the west london scum. Lunchtime kick-off's can be a bit subdued, let's make sure the atmosphere is bang on. On a seperate note, do we really want our team/manager to be good losers? I want them to have the hump when they lose. It shows the care. I appreciate there should be an element of respect but let's face it, Wigan were wasting time from the first minute. Here's to cheslki being run ragged tonight!

  43. Tony Evans

    Apr 18, 2012, 13:24 #21297

    Chris - I take your point and I also enjoyed the fantastic football we played in Wenger's successful years. I wouldn't agree though that it has been pure bliss almost constantly since Wenger took over. The football we play now is often far too intricate and lacks the incisiveness of the 1998 - 2004 teams - it can be a tad boring sometimes (in my humble opinion). I think we can both agree that we need a morphed version of Wenger and George Graham as a manager - Graham's steel and resolve and Wenger's flair. Also I can certainly concur that your formative years in the early 80s witnessed some of the worst football I have had to endure as an Arsenal supporter. All credit to you for sticking with it. I was in the same boat when I started supporting Arsenal in the 60s when we were just as bad but I have never regretted my choice of club.

  44. Liam O

    Apr 18, 2012, 13:21 #21296

    Absolutely shocking performance how could we lose our shape 6 mins in to the game? AW in his press conference on the friday said "Moses and Di Santo are a threat." So why didn't we have plans to Moses? And the lack of urgency in the 2nd half really frustrated me. We desperate for Jack to get back and deliver that killer ball to often we get to the edge of the box and nothing happens. To be honest I just want CL football sewn up and to move on to next season.

  45. 71 guns

    Apr 18, 2012, 12:57 #21295

    Am I right in thinking Arsene sulked off down the tunnel without shaking hands again? So they wasted as much time as they could, 2-0 up AWAY at Arsenal - who wouldn't? Ironically for all our possesion Wigan looked far more threatening on the attack and on another day would have put the game to bed. Even if we had battered them for 90mins and they'd nicked one in injjury time though I'd find AW's frustration easier to understand what happens on the pitch happens and when the whistle blows you shake hands good, bad or indifferent. Having a tantrum because we've been beaten by a 'lesser' side is even more embarassing than the defeat itself...

  46. goonercolesyboy

    Apr 18, 2012, 12:40 #21294

    @Judge Fred...Reading have got promotion to the premiership with 10 defeats. The difference is we have drawn only 4 league games Newcastle Bolton Fulham and Wolves, there lies a story which I guess comes down to the defending....how many games should we have been happy to get a draw and move on, the sign of possible champions? However I shall pay my season ticket and stay loyal to the team in spite of our erratic form and continue to support my team, and to all those that left early on Monday, you are a disgrace as was Marriner, who I think was the 4th ref at the Man City game and missed/saw the tackle on Song.

  47. fozzy's mate

    Apr 18, 2012, 12:25 #21293

    Fozzy - despite sitting next to you for a reasonable number of games even I find it hard to decrypt your rants with the use of an ever increasing number of nicknames used. After employing the enigma machine I do agree with your sentiment that 10 league defeats combined with the sides we have contrived to lose to is not good enough. However we must give Wigan credit and Martinez in particular for a spirited and skilfull showing. Frankly instead of flapping around and attacking the 4th official OGL would be better employed getting his own house in order. Ever since the Ronney dive inspired end of the 49 game run, he has spent 8 years blaming referees for the lack of true success. I do not however agree with the submission of changing the manager. What needs to change is the clubs philosophy at the topm, starting with s ickening old etonian/fart and Ivan Mr Self sustainable/walking mba/driving up revenue Gazidis. To them success is staumbling over the line into 3rd/4th place about 30 points the champions with the minimum outlay. If OGL goes they will seek out a character of the ilk of Steve Keane of big Eck, who is so grateful for the job, that he will implement the policies driven by the Denver dough trouserer, who sits counting his dough in Denver before combing his syrup like hair. Which I am surprised you have not mentioned given your obvious obsession with wigs!

  48. Ramgun

    Apr 18, 2012, 12:22 #21292

    Replacing Pat Rice would be a waste of time. Wenger would no more listen to Bould than he does anyone else. That kind of change is like rearranging the deck-chairs on the Titanic. Wenger's behaviour throughout the game and immediately after the game to Martinez and his quite dreadful display of gigantic ego and petulance towards Sky's interviewer is sadly typical of the man in his later years as our manager. Staff changes mean nothing. Player transfers mean nothing. As long as Wenger is Manager our club will not change. 28 Trophies have been won since we won a trophy and by this time next year it will be 32.

  49. Dave

    Apr 18, 2012, 12:18 #21291

    Have you been sitting around waiting for us to lose?

  50. Clockender78

    Apr 18, 2012, 11:56 #21290

    @umbongo. "are you for real?". I'm afraid so, ten, yes ten league defeats this season. Just when you think the corner has been turned, we produce another shoddy performance. We have done very well to get to third place, but the same mistakes keep happening. Poor defending, substitutions, certain players strolling about thinking the game is won before it's started! Full credit to Wigan, thoroughly deserved win and deserving of applause from some gooners at the final whistle.

  51. Chris

    Apr 18, 2012, 11:45 #21289

    @Tony Evans - you say that but whilst the GG teams were without doubt entertaining in their blood and thunder way (scoring tons of goals some seasons and playing some good stuff despite the 'one-nil to the Arsenal' b*llocks), there was a huge step up in quality as soon as e.g. Bergkamp arrived. First game I saw even under Bruce Rioch, when Bergkamp slid an angled ball through the defence beautifully for Wrighty to run onto it was most definitely as case of ears pricking up and "oh hang on, haven't seen much of this round here before!" Compared to my formative years of Arsenal support in the (pre-Graham) early eighties, when I'll admit I sometimes stood on the North bank not knowing what the f*ck to make of what was going on on the pitch, it has been pure bliss almost constantly since Arsene Wenger took over.

  52. Gee

    Apr 18, 2012, 11:36 #21288

    Agree with the difference in the two dug-outs. Martinez continually on the touchline directing his troops. And on the other Wenger offering nothing but vitriol at the 4th official. These results will continue to happen if his arrogance in not studying strengths and weakness' of the opposition carries on. Our players have no clue where to stand or what to do wen they haven't got the ball. One game in five we will play an outstanding pressing game without the ball where we look like we have a system. But this is not enough. Add to this the number of passengers we have dragging the squad down and not taking responsibility and dragging the team forward and we are nothing but an average outfit. Yes we've won 9 from the last 11 but look at the results we've spawned in the last minute against Sunderland, Liverpool, Newcastle. Plus a late goal v City. That's 4 games from the 9 we've won that was a very fine margin to dropping the points. We are on the edge every game, hence why we either lose or win. We can not get draws as we are a **** or bust side. Ten league losses is not good enough and we ship a worrying amount of goals None of this will be addressed as Wenger will continue to sell us the future and not the present. The bloke will not win another trophy for us and by the time his contract is up that will be 9 years. He really has had a career of two halves as Arsenal manager

  53. Gare Kekeke

    Apr 18, 2012, 11:15 #21287

    Well said Judge Fred. And yet again I’m in agreement with Tony Evans. It’s about attitude amongst many things. How many of players went into Monday’s game thinking they just had to turn up to win? I can accept us losing games but not in the manner for which we did against Wigan who fully deserved their win and the applause from Gooners like myself when they were walking off the pitch after the match. They should be mid-table. True winners like GG’s players would have not put in a shift like this current squad did who are just simply overindulged and overpaid. Not that we didn’t know that already. But then this comes from the lack of winning mentality that exists in our squad with the exception of a few but only a few. And it comes from the current manager who thinks being 2nd, 3rd or even 4th best is acceptable. And let’s not forget the board whose main priority with The Arsenal is hefty profits. The Times’ match report on our loss to Wigan said nobody remembers who finished 3rd. But then I thought ‘we Gooners do because we are either 3rd or 4th every year these days’. Don’t expect Wenger to replace Pat Rice this summer with a tactical mastermind either. Sol Campbell revealed recently that Wenger doesn’t like being challenged on the training ground. More inconsistency awaits The Arsenal up to 2014 and beyond I’m afraid as PHW will make sure that Wenger will continues his very long (with some success let’s not forget) reign as manager of The Arsenal. Up The Arsenal!

  54. rudytel

    Apr 18, 2012, 10:04 #21286

    All teams under perform but we've made such a habit of it this season, it's got quite worrying. This squad has quality but no where near enough to become champions. I hate Man U but you have to admire the way SAF injects steel and winning mentality into his teams season upon season. AW will never re-create the teams of 97-04.

  55. Ron

    Apr 18, 2012, 10:03 #21285

    Arsenal as a Club have a bigger job than just changing many of its players. They have to change a whole club culture. The continental 'Frenchness' that brings with it a primary desire to aesthetically please and be nice on the eye has to be replaced by a high level of power and athleticism. Anything else will fail in the Premier League. Trying to bolt on a totally differnent footballing ethic to any english club wont succeed however laudable the objective may be. Arsenal have always been a very classy,very smooth yet gutsy club. The Wenger years (and i mean all of the Wenger years, not just the last 7)has eroded much of what made the Club a great one before he was even thought of as a Coach. He tries to make out he understands Arsenals culture. He doesnt and his arrogance is undermining it and i for one resent it greatly. He ought to consider taking a look at some old matches showing the winning side of 1970/71 and show how skill is welded to desire and will to win games that at times seemed lost. He should talk to Frank McLintock and Co. He might even understand mental strength then, though i wont hold my breath! Hes happy presiding over a team of weak willed, twinkle toed pansies who cry when things arent handed to them on a plate by an opponent. Thats what hes cultivated. ive felt it ever since his team collapsed like a pack of cards after the infamous game 49 at OT in 04. They could hardly perform for 6 months after that due to being big cry babies and AW was the conductor of the big 'sulk in'.

  56. Bard

    Apr 18, 2012, 9:57 #21284

    I'm not sure that the malaise on Mon is all down to the players. I don't think Wenger is a smart tactician or any kind of tactician at all. I saw him on sky trying to answer how he would counteract Wigans new formation. It was like he didn't understand the question. This may be part of the reason for the decline. He doesn't rotate his number 2 so there is effectivley no new ideas, no new tactical ideas or voices. The game has changed tactically its more strategic than it used to be ( see Pep Mourinho et al ). It seems like Wenger plays it off the cuff. This explains his wierd time influenced substitutions. I just don't think Arsenal had a tactical plan to counteract a very good Wigan set up and performance. Its also why when watching last nights Euro semi you realised just how far we have slipped off the pace both in terms of quality and strategy. This is why I doubt Wenger can take us any further.

  57. halfempty

    Apr 18, 2012, 9:51 #21283

    um bongo: i think perhaps you should watch a different team- barnet, say. you clearly have low standards ( and a very short memory). we were no better against qpr or wolves ( after 10 mins when they only had 10 men). think of all those games we scored right at the death, and ask yourself where we'd be now without them, and whether our performances have really warranted our current lofty position. we're going nowhere with wenger.

  58. Judge Fred

    Apr 18, 2012, 9:19 #21282

    Look at the bigger picture; 10 defeats in the league (so far) this season. We have lost roughly one third of our games. Awful whichever way you look at it. Can anyone come on here and honestly tell me that this record is good enough for a club like Arsenal?

  59. chris dee

    Apr 18, 2012, 9:13 #21281

    Why the surprise at the loss? We have been consistent over the last few years of winning a few games and then arrogantly (the buck stops with the manager)turning up for games we think we can win without effort and concentation and getting our arses kicked. Here we had the chance to virtually sealing Champions League football,a mini cup final,and we show no urgency,concentration or pride in the shirt. Also it's no surprise that Fabrigas back in London this week,tells how he has improved on his defensive duties since being at Barca because at Arsenal he could 'do what he wanted'.Are you listening Arsene? And what's the deal with the fawning 'Verminator' tag for Vermaelon ? The guy has won sod all for the club . Only players who should have helped win silverware for Arsenal deserve such affection no matter how talented. So you can keep Vermaelon,Song,Chesney,Sagna,Woolcott et al until they deliver the goods. Give me less talented players such Andy Linghan,Steve Morrow,Ian Selly all of who helped Arsenal win trophies. But oops I forgot,a Champions League spot is a trophy! Meanwhile in the big boys playground last night Bayern were playing Real in a Champions League semi while our board ,and many supporters judging by some of the posts,are happy to be in the second tier of English and European football.

  60. Tony Evans

    Apr 18, 2012, 9:02 #21280

    With each spineless performance I become more and more convinced that in the early successful Wenger years OGL was seriously bailed out by the experienced pros he inherited from GG. Of course Wenger made some incredibly astute signings in the creative and goal-scoring departments back then but the will to win every match instilled in players like Adams, Keown, Dixon and Parlour by GG made all the difference. I am sure the hard never say die footballing lessons they had drilled in to them by GG were passed on to the new signings in spite of Wenger's belief in pretty football. Sadly now we are seeing Wenger is his true colours. Yes a talented manager in many respects, but too naive and unwilling to face up to the harsher realities of the game where rolling the sleeves up and getting stuck in, over and above the skill he so admires, is a prerequisite to winning the games the big prizes. I would take a George Graham type team any day (tight at the back and determined with a Wrighty type goal poacher)over Wenger's posse of poofs that only turn up when they feel like it and think the game is won even before a ball is kicked.

  61. mkherd89

    Apr 18, 2012, 8:59 #21279

    well said um bongo,our fans are coming so fickle

  62. mark from aylesbury

    Apr 18, 2012, 8:43 #21277

    Tactics and motivation failure yet again. No ability to play cagey against resolute oposition. Im not happy with Wenger and the set-up anyway but assuming Wenger is here to 2014 wouldnt it be wise to let Bould or Brady step-up, dump Rice, bring one of them into the decision making and if one of them cuts it then job is his, or at least act as a temp fix like Di Mateo.

  63. R Meade

    Apr 18, 2012, 8:37 #21276

    Monday proved yet again nothing has changed from the start of the season, the same problems are there for all to see with many poor players you get many poor results a no brainer. Big changes are needed if we are to do anymore than fight for 4th. With Chelsea and Stoke away coming up let's hope Wenger can get a bit of fight out of the players, not much to ask.

  64. Arsene is a liar

    Apr 18, 2012, 8:07 #21275

    Weng doesn't care about Arsenal fans and footballing success anymore, all he cares about is making money for his paymasters and receiving his multi million pound annual salary.

  65. Tom

    Apr 18, 2012, 7:06 #21274

    When you have a superior footballing side like Arsenal play inferior side like Wigan,or QPR, you'd normally welcome the lesser side's attacking adventures ,rather than preverbial parking of the bus. One problem though,Arsenal are at times terrible defending when they loose the ball. Unles they improve,there won't be any trophies at the Emirates.

  66. Um Bongo

    Apr 18, 2012, 6:49 #21273

    Are you for real? We were poor but sometimes that happens. With respect when the Ox came on he did very little save for a couple of runs early on. Our second loss in 11 games and suddenly it's we need to replace the manager again. We have some very poor fans I'm afraid to say.