Gooners are sounding like Spurs and West Ham fans

A problem of attitude needs changing



Gooners are sounding like Spurs and West Ham fans

George: 1990s Mourinho


Apart from the influence of money, what’s a major factor that sets the great clubs apart from the rest? For example, when AC Milan or Bayern Munich finishes 3rd or 4th do they think ‘how wonderful we’ve got Champions League football’ or do they get angry? The Arsenal attitude in recent years has been ‘things could always be worse’. Great clubs simply don’t think in those terms; they get vexed when they’re not up there challenging to be the best. Arsenal are one of the few clubs with big funds (the fifth most prosperous in the world and with two multi-billionaires as the majority shareholders and a manageable debt) and yet instead of being a wounded tiger we’ve adopted the attitude of a contented sheep.

In recent years I noticed a major change in attitude among the new breed of Arsenal fan. For example when Chelsea won back-to-back titles in 2005 and 2006, it was common to hear JCL’s come out with things like ‘But they don’t play football the way we do’ and ‘I don’t want to win trophies playing like Chelsea’. My God did it sicken some of us to hear that! That’s the same garbage that Spurs fans used to spout during the George Graham glory years of the late 1980s and early 1990’s. And it was a false perception as Arsenal under Graham played far better football than Spurs. The same way as Chelsea under Mourinho played better football than anyone else; because they were brilliant in defence it frustrated the away fans and neutrals – good for them.

The same stubborn attitude has held back clubs like Spurs and West Ham for decades. Any new manager (of which there have been loads) has to play the ‘right way’. By playing the so-called ‘right way’ these two clubs have won the league title as many times combined, as we have at White Hart Lane!

If Arsenal are to retain greatness then we can’t put up boundaries that hold anyone back from doing a good job. For example, a significant amount of Arsenal fans would not want someone like Jose Mourinho as Arsenal manager because of his playing style, despite the fact that Mourinho would probably bring greatness to Arsenal. In regards to Wenger’s one day successor I hear people say things like “But we’d need to get someone who will play the Wenger way?” As far as I am aware, Arsenal Football Club does not have a written constitution stating that the team has to play the ‘Wenger Way’. Are these people fans of Arsenal FC 1886 or Arsene Wenger FC 1996? The manager who follows Wenger should succeed or fail by doing things his way, and anyone who has a problem with that should go and create the ‘Church of Our Lord Wenger’ and stop laying down rules that have no continuity with Arsenal’s overall history.

I’m not screaming ‘Wenger Out’. I still like and respect the man for his past achievements. Loyalty is important and for the most part Gooners are not really the kind to turn on someone we love. Even when George Graham lost his magic touch in the mid 1990s we still backed him even though we knew he had peaked. Wenger’s record between 1996 and 2006 was - to put it in one word - great. Hypothetically, if another manager took charge after the Champions League Final in 2006, and had the same record up to now as we have had, he would be universally hated by Arsenal fans for ruining Wenger’s great team. So do you employ a manager on the basis of what he’s done in the past, or for what he will do for you in the future? Personally I hope Wenger stays and proves many of us wrong, but if this is beyond him then a great club will have to search for another way forward.

I’m not a glory boy. I do not demand success or unfairly demonise those who can’t deliver it. But I do expect a fearsome attitude and genuine desire to be the best, especially from the biggest club in European football never to have won the top honour (name a club bigger than Arsenal never to have won the Champions League/European Cup?). It’s the least the supporters deserve when they are burdened with high ticket prices on the premise that if you want the best you have to pay for it. Right now the feeling that many of us get, is that the club are content to be bridesmaids on the pitch, just so long as the business model and spreadsheets are competing with the big boys.

Matthew Bazell is the author of Theatre of Silence: the Lost Soul of Football


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  1. Joe S.

    May 05, 2012, 16:55 #21901

    Well, so after today we are heading for the middling status which our ambition so humbly aspires to. Well done Arsene, training staff and the suits who have allowed the quality of the team to deteriorate to this present level. Bur hold on we can now blame injuries and poor refereeing decisions for what has been an ugly season of self inflicted pain.

  2. BALLS UP

    May 05, 2012, 14:53 #21900

    what do thos monsters of football all have in common i mean swansea, norwich, fulham, qpr, blackburn, wigan, stoke ? well they have all taken vital points off of Arsenal because wenger still is unable to properly motivate his group of players at the KEY CRUNCH MOMENTS and that is why he is not a winner and why Arsenal will now finish 5th

  3. Gooner S

    May 05, 2012, 9:42 #21897

    Your post attempts to be be well reasoned but it doesn't put the situation fully into context. Yes, we are a great club. In fact Liverpool, United and Arsenal are the three greatest English teams. We have never been in the league of Real Madrid etc. One reason is that when we were rolling over all before us that wasn't in the era of the 'modern game' with European football. The other difference is the clubs you mentioned already had financial muscle behind them. We did not in the modern era. We let the grass grow under our feet, as a club, as long ago as the 1960s and we spurned opportunities throughout the intervening years to improve our financial footing. We are getting more competitive in that score, year by year now. That makes Wenger's achievements all the more great. We have been punching above our financial weight for years and competing through other means with the top teams. That makes the final years at Highbury and the past few years at the Emirates an achievement as well. It could have all gone tits up in a massive way but yet we have remained competitive despite what the doom and gloom merchants might have us believe. Even when we are clear of our debt we will still not be able to compete with the sugar dadies at certain clubs. People have to realise this. Where Arsenal have under performed, in this respect, is in commercial revenue. We should be doing a lot better. With regards to sounding like other fans of West Ham and Spurs...This has always been the case. Football fans of all ilks will find something to criticise in a succesful team. It's the nature of the beast and nothing to do with recent generations of Arsenal fans. You can take that all the way back to Arsenal in the 1930's (bank of England club) through to Leeds United (dirty Leeds), through to George Graham's Arsenal (Boring boring Arsenal). When thinking about the behaviour of the modern fan the most radical change is through technology, the internet and social netwroking sites, blogging etc. This coupled with the modern media which feeds off this is affecting the way some fans think and behave.

  4. Nick

    May 04, 2012, 10:39 #21878

    Your right Ron i had overlooked Joe baker , but he wasnt the only good player in that team ,who did in fact play some entertaining football, but we were more likely to lose 4-3 than win, George Eastham was also a very very good player, and we had some solid performers like Geoff Strong.

  5. Tony Evans

    May 03, 2012, 13:26 #21867

    Agree Ron - Joe Baker was one hell of a player, definitely one of the few players we had back then that were worth paying to see.

  6. Tony Evans

    May 03, 2012, 12:41 #21866

    Well said Nick. I totally agree with you.

  7. Ron

    May 03, 2012, 12:30 #21865

    Great comments. Its players like Geoarge that the Club lacks. Skilled,driven,gutsy, outrageous and Arsenal through and through. His type give a Club 'soul'. We ve had ours exorcised by the foreign influx, some great, many good, but sadly many dubious. George value today? 22 - 25 Million? His fitness issues might reduce it a bit i accept. PS i rate Joe Baker our best ever striker. He was great in a team with a sieve for a defence!

  8. Nick

    May 03, 2012, 11:35 #21864

    Yes Joshua i do remember the 92 /93 season well, as every season since 58/59, and in my opinion, Ian Wright as a STRIKER was one of the best theres ever been and if not for a certain Graham Taylor would have had a much more influential international career, you are also forgetting Ted Drake and Cliff bastin who if they had been playing in todays overhyped atmosphere, would have been feted as world beaters, as is almost every player who manages to have a handfull of outstanding displays these days, to my mind both Henry and Dennis should have at the very least won the european footballer of the year award and had they been playing for Real , Barca or even manure , they almost certainly would have done, and if Liam brady were playing today he would be up there with the very best in the world, as for Alex James even im not old enough to have seen him play, but reports from my father who did and other unbiased sources, indicate that he too would be in the bracket of a Figo or Puskas, Utd have had Best and Ronaldo who are the only ones who fall into that category for me, and Liverpool, well perhaps Rush and Dalglish. As for the 92/93 season i seem to recall we ended that with two cups, offsetting our poor league display, i would not dispute that Wenger has been more sucsessfull than George Graham but he has had longer to do it , and i accept that many clubs would not have coped nearly as well with the restrictions the new stadium brought, but now the time has come to move on and ASPIRE, to the greatness we were told by the late Danny Fizzman the move to a new stadium would bring us and to stop whining about how much money others have compared to us, im more of the opinion that its the board holding us back rather than Wenger, but we shall see in the transfer window just how much ambition the club has got, quite frankly other clubs at home or abroad do not concern me, THE ARSENAL do, i dont care how big others are or think they are, for me and countless others THE ARSENAL are the BIGGEST club in the world. ps if you think Charlie George was simply a talented player, if he were in his prime and playing today how much do you think the oil barons of man city would pay for him ?

  9. GaryFootscrayAustralia

    May 03, 2012, 2:57 #21861

    Will whichever highly - strung individual who wins the debate regarding this piece consider that to be "like winning a trophy?" Just checking, because after tonight's results, the club's current "like winning a trophy" might well have disappeared by next weekend. At the start of the season I predicted we'd finish 5th - I sincerely hope that doesn't come true.

  10. Joshua

    May 02, 2012, 21:35 #21859

    @ Red mist. I don't know how you can compare Forest/ Villa with Dortmund or Porto. Dortmund sell out an 80,000 Stadium and are regulars in the Champions league. How many times have Villa/ Forest played in the champions League? Porto Stadium hold 52,000 fans and they are regulars in the champions league... how are they comparable to Villa/ Forest? Having said that Villa and Forest can legitimately boast having achieved something that we haven't. The size of club depends on many things, size of support, history, major trophies won etc... by those measures it is far from clear that we are "bigger" than Porto much less Dortmund. If you ask me do we have a bigger potential than those two clubs I would say yes but potential is nothing till you've realised it and you can't go around bragging about potential. ............................................................ This really is my last contribution to this debate. I don't think that saying any more will convince any one that doesn't want to be convinced. Thank you one and all. And remember we are all gooners in the end even if we disagree.

  11. Joshua

    May 02, 2012, 20:57 #21858

    Nick, I didn't ignore your points I read your post but I just didn't think it was very well argued. No offence. Charlie George is an Arsenal legend, a beloved Arsenal hero... he is however not a football great. Neither is Ian Wright who again is an Arsenal hero and was a very good footballer but it is no insult to say that he is nowhere near the class of a Puskas or De Stefano. For the rest Brady was a lovely footballer and I would argue that he was world class at his best. Alex James was before my time and I have seen no videos of him but legend has it that he was as good as Bergkamp and that is very good. Bergkamp and Henry I would grant you but still for a club that some of us want to insist is so big, that isn't all that much, is it? Real can name Frenc Puskas, Di Stefano, Bernd Schuster, Gunter Netzer, Uli Steilike, Hugo Sanchez... all the way to Figo, Ronaldo, Zidane and now C. Ronaldo. How many of those were/are undisputed greats of the game? Do you really think that Ian Wright, much as I love him, belongs in that list, which is far from exhaustive?....... My point in all this is not to say that fans have no right to expect the club to strive for greatness, how can anyone even say that? The whole point of football is glory! My point is this... in our reasonable and understandable search for glory we shouldn't underestimate what has been achieved in the last 15 years. Ambition is not the same as fantasy... for this article to expect INFORMED Arsenal fans to act as if they are Madrid or Bayern Munich supporters is very misguided in my humble opinion. We are not Real Madrid. Can we one day get to match Real Madrid? ... Yes is my answer, but it will take hard work and laying proper solid foundations. And that is what Wenger is doing. no one has toned down their expectations least of all Wenger... when you see him agitated and aggravated on the touchline does he look like a man who is happy with 4th place? When he throws his bottle of water to the ground in disgust is that the actions of a satisfied man?...... And some of the claims made for George Graham are just crazy when you actually examine the facts. Do you know that Arsenal scored only 40 goals in the '92/93 season? But even more interesting is that we conceded 38 goals. Here's another fact that might surprise you and some of those who claim that Wenger can't organise a defence... do you know that the invincibles defence of Lehmann, Lauren, Sol, Kolo and Cole... all Wenger players, have the best defensive record of any Arsenal back 5 in the premiership era. They conceded only 26 goals in a season even allowing for a 38 game season instead of a 42 game season it is still an impressive performance. Yet one of the criticisms you constantly hear is that Wenger can't organise a defence. BTW in '94/ 95 season the legendary back 4 or five under GG conceded 49 goals and Arsenal scored 52. That season we finished below Wimbledon. ........ There are whole load of myths about Arsenal that have no basis in fact that are pushed by fans who can't be arsed to just inform themselves about their own club.

  12. Ando

    May 02, 2012, 18:32 #21854

    The 4th place that the club has aspirations towards may not bring progress to the promised land of the cl this coming season.I am not confident the team will secure anything other than a maximum of two points from our last two fixtures, as yet again we seem unable to cross the winning line mentally, or we simply do not have the quality or determination required to achieve 3rd. What was it the standard said about ''average joes'' far too many overpaid joes at the emirates these days.

  13. Magic man

    May 02, 2012, 17:33 #21852

    Shayan the title fits your piece perfectly! How many excuses for not winning can you give? Heard it all before just usually its from them lot down the road .

  14. Nick

    May 02, 2012, 16:54 #21851

    Joshua you declined to reply to my last points ,thats your perogative, but id like to suggest to you, that the article was about us, the supporters and whether or not we should be happy to have the same ambition as our chums down the road, not Wengers or the clubs ambition, ours ,so do you think we should tone down our expectation level to that of the spuds, or fulham, or everton, aston villa maybe, because it sounds to me thats the level your putting us in, all i and many others are saying, is that we feel that THE ARSENAL, are a cut above those aforementioned clubs, and therefore our expectation level should be higher , and we should feel aggreived when the clubs ambition doesnt seem to match our own, ill say it again i dont demand trophys but i bloody well do demand that we aspire to them .

  15. Shayan

    May 02, 2012, 15:23 #21848

    Completely agree with Joshua! Good points in the world of "7 trophy less seasons, lack of ambition,.."!!How could you imagine after 7 MAJOR trophy in 7 years (That could easily be 8:remember the FA cup final against Liverpool), A manager doesn't want to add to them?! Of course he wants! About 7 trophy less seasons: In 2005-06, we reach the final of Champions league without conceding after the group stage and with 10 men, we almost won it and wasn’t Eto’o in offside for their first goal? In 2006-7 and 2007-08, we played fantastic football and lost a cup final with youngsters in one season and lost the title due to the facts that everyone knows in another one. We had a fantastic midfield with “Fabregas,Rosicky,Hleb and Flamini” and when 3 of them were not available in next season, we reach the semi finals of FA cup and Champions league! In next 2 seasons, we were in the title race and lost it due to the collapse in late season! So, to all of AMGs, please stop the boring “7 trophy less season”! We have a great manager and he wants the success of Arsenal more than anyone else. Another point: For those that refer again and again to 4-4 against Tottenham and some other results for Wenger’s team mentality, pay attention to the results of Ferguson the genius’s team (As some people refer to him again and again in this blog) against Everton last week and last season! One last point: Football isn’t a mathematical problem, Luck and many other factors affect the result of one game, so also please stop pointing to the loss in Carling cup Final of last season. You can review the history of football and find many similar matches that better team lose to a weaker team!

  16. Ronster

    May 02, 2012, 13:54 #21846

    The Wenger apologists who argue Arsenal cannot compete with Manchester City and Chelsea need to explain how the billions of Sheikh Mansour and Roman Abramovich have prevented The Gunners from picking up maximum points against Wolves,Blackburn,QPR,Wigan and Bolton.A balanced, well coached and motivated squad at Arsenal Football Club post 2004 should have always been ready to pounce when these supposedly better placed clubs have taken their eye off the ball.Both the Manchester clubs have been there for the taking in the last two seasons.

  17. goonercolesyboy

    May 02, 2012, 13:37 #21844

    I have really enjoyed reading the posts to this article and the great insight of Joshua and Chris in response to the normal trotted out drivel that some continue to post in their positions of ignorance for the most part....great stuff, keep it up, it makes for interesting debate, which is what these sites are meant to be.

  18. Red mist

    May 02, 2012, 13:25 #21842

    Joshua so by the basis you are going by Forest are bigger than us because of the two euro cups but then that would have made Forest bigger than Man utd and Barca until recent times? Please I would love to know when do you think we can ask for a bit more from Wenger? Another 5 years without competing for a trophy? 10 years?

  19. tpm

    May 02, 2012, 13:22 #21841

    in answer to joshua, yes celtic are asmaller club, as are porto and dortmund. the first 2 due to the fact of the countries they are in and the associated lack of finances comparitvely they can acquire through things like tv deals. wining european cups does not indicate whos a bigger club than who, a cup is just that a lottery a lot of the time, are red star and psv bigger clubs than us as they have won the euro cup??? dortmund i do not belive has had the domestic success arsenal have in our history, at least not greater. as for you daft responses, and those of chris, perhaps you should stick to fact. how do you know AW was wanted bya ll thease clubs, red it in the media did you, no proof they actually would offer him a deal had he been free. its your opinion hes onre of the top5 managers, nothing more. his record over the last 6 years suggests he isnt. why mention rvp, few ever said he should go, and he had showed ability throughout his injury prone years. diaby for example has shown a bit of skill, nothing more and is clearly finished. flappy was not very very good, he was competent, did what u would expect of any bog standard keeper in the last few games. before that he was atrocious and still looks an accident waiting to happen. simply not good enough even as back up for a club with our supposed ambitions. song, is still poor and should be at best back up as is theo. is it any coincidence our defencesive record is poor in the time he has been responsible for protecting the back 4??? sign a proper DM and the defence will look far better straight away. everton get more for there money i would suggest, and my point about money does make sense and has still not been answered by. i have given you a list of players who 95% of fans of all clubs, would agree are not good enough for a club of out ambitions (not yours though) , and who are a drain on our resources, yet you claim there good enough thru your minority opinion. gerv has shown nothing to suggest he will come good next season. pires showed glimpses of his class in first season despite having a tough time. explain JD's new contract. the long and shiort of it is, youa re happy to finish 4th and dont see why anyone else should want better. u are happy with average signings. your unambitious and the perfect fan for the current malaise, happy with your lot at the club, not accepting things could be better and should be. explain why this season is a success? explain who got us into the mess at the start of the season. explain the tactics or lack of that are eveidenced week in week out in and the precribed substitutions. Arsenal are the 3rd biggest club in england and AW built us into a club that contends for the title every season, however he has now systematically dismantled what he built for no apparent reason. we have the infrastructure, finces and capabilities to contend (not necessarily win) for major trophies every season but we dont. for me there must be a reason why we dont, and between the board and the manager they take responsibility for that fact.

  20. AugustusCaesar

    May 02, 2012, 12:49 #21839

    I think the 'we're content with 3rd/4th place' schtik that a lot of fans are trotting out has become overstated. This season we have not challenged for anything and that is disappointing. But of all the previous six seasons where we've finished empty handed we have challenged for something. We haven't got over the line but the agenda has never been, 'let's get 3rd or 4th'. This is just poppycock. I believe we can be successful again under Wenger.

  21. Chris

    May 02, 2012, 9:21 #21831

    @ Busta - Lol! The funny thing is you don't sound like much of a w-i-n-n-e-r coming out with that sort of stuff. In fact, you sound a like an angry and frustrated 14 year old. And what's even more funny is that if yo ever got your wish and Wenger left, chances are it would be a worse manager who would take over and we'd be stuffed! No one has settled for mediocrity - for a start 3rd is clearly not mediocre and secondly, some people can see the full picture and know Arsenal has no divine right to win all the time. Can you please give me your plan for how we should be able to out-compete the likes of City with their unlimited funds?

  22. Joshua

    May 02, 2012, 6:36 #21827

    Here's what I feel can actually be called comical with great justification; the idea that Porto and Dortmund are "smaller" clubs compared to Arsenal! Didn't Porto win the European Cup in the late 80's?! Are Celtic a smaller club than Arsenal just because they are in Scotland? Is their history less glorious than ours? Just because a club like Porto are based in a smaller country like Portugal doesn't necessarily make them a small club. I am willing to bet anything that Rabah Madjer is a more widely known name in global football than Charlie George, Frank McLintock, Bob Wilson, Tony Adams or even Liam Brady. I am also willing to bet that most of the people who say we have no ambition under Wenger and point to Dortmund and Porto as small clubs punching above their weight have no idea who Rabah Madjer is...... For your information Porto have 2 European Cups to their name. Arsenal, as we have said previously, have none. Porto have the great advantage of being able to import very good Brazilians and North Africans that we can't because our rules are different. Money isn't the only advantage that exists in football albeit that City and Chelsea type of money offers you a huge, huge advantage....... A big problem with the era of the internet is the way people who are not well informed can gather together and reinforce their lack of knowledge on sites that are basically echo chambers. Just because you and a lot of other people say that Arsenal lack ambition doesn't make it so. Just because some folks feel able to call Wenger a liar doesn't make true. It would be nice if some of our fans were a bit more civil and addressed the points others raise instead of just using pejorative and derogatory terms. Surely if our Arsenal as so badly managed you can point to better managed clubs and tell us what they are doing? What are Dortmund and Klopp actually doing? Are they putting their faith in youngsters or signing big names? Are they spending huge amounts on transfers or securing gifted youngsters on long term contracts? What is Klopp actually doing at Dortmund? Tell us... that would be a good start.

  23. Wombledin

    May 02, 2012, 5:46 #21826

    Absolutely brilliant, best article I've read here on ages. And what a comment this is: "Hypothetically, if another manager took charge after the Champions League Final in 2006, and had the same record up to now as we have had, he would be universally hated by Arsenal fans for ruining Wenger’s great team." Genius! Sums it all up really. Finishing trophyless for 7 seasons and 20 points off top spot for Englands greatest Club is just not good enough anymore and the new stadium debt is no longer an excuse. If you're content with that then p*ss off down the road to the lilly whites.

  24. Jonesey

    May 01, 2012, 22:32 #21825

    Good article, don't agree with everything but certainly believe that the acceptance culture amongst many of our fans have contributed to our stagnation, and allowed Wenger to continue with his doomed, unnecessary Project Youth to a point where it's 7 years without even a Mickey Mouse Cup. One thing about George Graham though, not particularly related to this article. He did fantastic things for our club as a player and manager, has been unfairly derided re his team's playing style, and I don't really care about the bung he took (he just got greedy and it's only money), but to go and manage tottenham and then win them a trophy is unforgivable, and no matter how much Wenger has irritated the hell out of me these last few years, at least he's never done that.

  25. Busta

    May 01, 2012, 22:24 #21824

    Great article, sums up the comical lack of ambition. It starts at the top with Wenger, and the board and runs right through to excuse-making joke fans who tolerate mediocrity. Funny about that attitude, because teams like Dortmund who have less cash and prestige than Bayern win their league. Monaco, made a CL final. Porto under Mourinho, with far less funds than most teams won the thing. Prestige and cash are the excuses of losers, and that's what Wenger and his sheep disciples are: L-o-s-e-r-s. Arsenal are stuck in a rut which will die the day Wenger is booted out/leaves.

  26. Joshua

    May 01, 2012, 22:21 #21822

    TPM, I'm not trying to avoid your questions at all. I just don't consider them as all that difficult or even relevant. On Wenger's pay the answer is easy. 1) Wenger doesn't set his own pay. The board pays what they consider him to be worth. The board are happy with the job he is doing and with men on the board who know about money and value and are not known for throwing money away... there's nothing to justify. That's the short answer... Kroenke didn't become billionaire by giving his money away. 2)Now for the long anwer. When you look at what a person earns one of the questions you ask is... is this person in demand? Are there people who are willing to pay him more? Will his loss affect our success? Is he value for money to us? Does he make us money?... In Wenger's case the answer to all those questions is is a resounding YES. The new owner of Paris St Germaine wanted who? Wenger. Barcelona have been chasing who? Arsene Wenger. Franz Beckenbauer would like to hire who for Bayern... Arsene Wenger. You may not rate him but some of the biggest and most knowledgeable names in world football do. Now I am sure that you are a great internet expert but Franz Beckenbaeur is an actual football great; a winner of the world cup as player and manager. He may just probably know more than you. Then again he may not. 3) Wenger is easily one of the top 5 managers in the entire world. Easily... in fact he was voted in poll last year as the best manager of the last decade... the voter took all factors into consideration and voted for him. Again they may know more than you. Or they may not... but the fact remains that some people with no axe to grind chose Wenger as the best coach of the last decade ................................ on the players he has shown faith in who have failed... what about the one he has shown faith in who have succeeded? Do you only look at the one but not the other? Is there a manager who gets all decisions right. Van P, according to some of our fans, should have been sold at the beginning of last season because he was so injury prone. And now I see that he is not included in your list. Kosceilny was dubbed a waste by a load of the same people who considered Walcott a busted flush, these same people were telling the world that David Luis was the kind of signing Arsenal should be making... and now? Alex Song was booed by our fans and even last season some people were questioning his value. Even the names you list are far from failures. Why is Gervinho a failure after just one season? What kind of impatience is that? Before Fabianski got injured and Szczensy took over he was playing very, very well and even won us games like at Wolves away... what makes him so bad as a back-up keeper? Fergie paid 7m for Bebe! Dalgleish paid how many million for Henderson and the other showers in his side? If Diaby, who is hugely talented comes good will you be here to say you got it wrong or will you just move on to another target? Wenger isn't perfect but only children expect perfection... a reasonable person looks at things in the round... how much did Park cost? ............................. Your thing about money spent makes no sense. Is there a team in the premiership that gets more bang per buck spent on transfers than Arsenal? Is their a team above us in the league that has spent less money? So what is your problem... you want perfection? You can't have it becaue it doesn't exist on planet earth. Most adults know this. Those are your answers. If you have any more question ask... and I'll endeavour to answer if I have the time. Thank you and good night.

  27. Chris

    May 01, 2012, 22:16 #21821

    @tpm - Apologies for answering on ebhalf of Joshua if you mean has he extracted sporting success (in terms of PL points & CL advamcement) then yes, he has done better than any other top PL manager. And as for 'and i dont doubt for one minute he could have easily and safely spent much more had he wished' - where do you get all this from? If I was you I'd stick to the facts - which you seem intent on ignoring - instead of presenting as fact opinions on subjects you have absolutely no way knowing the truth about!

  28. tpm

    May 01, 2012, 20:59 #21820

    great respnse joshua, ignore the points put to you that u cant answer: justify AW's wages, his tactics and the players he has shown such faith in when everyone can see money would be better spent elsewhere, gerv, park, diaby, flappy, almuni, deni, etc etc. can you honestly say he has used what money he has spent (and i dont doubt for one minute he could have easily and safely spent much more had he wished) wisely in the last 5 years???

  29. Whinger_OUT_NOW

    May 01, 2012, 15:12 #21819

    I am surprised that no one has pointed out the obvious fact - Whinger FC USED to play good football at one time. Because those passes also brought goals and trophies. For the last 5 years, it's been endless sideways passing with millions of backpasses thrown in (ask Gervinho) with litle to show for it. All this "pretty" football thing has been a hogwash for the last 4-5 years.

  30. Nick

    May 01, 2012, 14:50 #21818

    Joshua just one last thing who do have we to match de stefiano or puskas , well id say Alex James in his pomp, Dennis Bergkamp and of course Therry Henry in his prime, weve had Liam Brady , Ian Wright, Charlie George all great talented footballers, i never said we were as big as Real Madrid et al, but we are a big, big club all the same and the article was about ambition, what would yours be ? to finish 3rd or 4th every season and go out of the cl in the first 16 every year? perhaps youd be happy with a Carling cup once every ten seasons? ive said it before and ill say it again we do not have a divine right to silverware , but we damm well should aspire to it, we may not be as wealthy as some other clubs but were not bloody Fulham, or the scum for that matter, we are THE ARSENAL, still the only club to have that prefix in front of its name, we never forgot that in the lean years between 53 and 69 or from 71 to 79 then on to 87, we may not have always been the best, but we bloody well aspired to it, and i see no reason not to now, just remember who we are and who we represent !!!!

  31. Joshua

    May 01, 2012, 13:50 #21817

    @Gare Kekeke. I still don’t understand your point. How can pointing out that your opponents are outspending you by a ratio of 15:1 be dismissed as a mere excuse? Have you actually taken a look at the comparative spending tables for the Premier league for the last 5 years? What Klopp has done in Germany is admirable but what Wenger has done at Arsenal is even more so by any objective standard. Bayern’s financial advantage over Dortmund is not of the type that Chelsea and ManCity, in particular, have over Arsenal …that’s one thing. Another is that Dortmund are a huge club, by some measures they are bigger than us! The Westphalen holds 80,000 for league matches and 66,000 for international matches and they have had that Stadium since around 1974! It is also one best stadiums in Europe for atmosphere... the Grove on the other hand is comparatively full of whingers and moaners compared to the Westphalen. Bayern are big but so is Dortmund. Dortmund aren’t faced with some billionaire buying Hoffenheim or Schalke and then suddenly having their players poached are they? Do Dortmund have a 10mile radius imposed on them by the German FA for youth recruitment? There are particular issues that we face in England that are just not a factor in Germany… that’s a fact. I’m sorry but I disagree that Wenger makes excuse after excuse.. he occasionally points out FACTS but he himself insists that we should be able to compete. The funny thing in about all this is that the critics of Wenger never point to a coach who could have done better with similar resources. Benitez, who is no mug, spent about £250m at Liverpool and finished a best of second in the league. Last season all manner of people were saying that we should get AVB and kick out Wenger… and now? The Mourinho thing is a joke… Mourinho will require massive funds. Wenger fits Arsenal and we fit him, that’s my view. There’s a saying that familiarity breeds contempt and never was that saying truer than with some Arsenal fans and their manager. Wenger is not perfect, no human being is but some of his critics are simply unfair to say the least.

  32. Ramgun

    May 01, 2012, 13:44 #21816

    Mourinho won The Champions League at Porto without spending much at all. WILL please note.

  33. ATID

    May 01, 2012, 13:40 #21815

    Well said. Too many Arsenal fans (young and old) have been seduced by the branding and the nonsense that coming second, third or fourth is like winning a trophy. Not on any pitch I have ever played on. Check out the dictionary definition of loser if you think I am wrong.

  34. El Bodgeo

    May 01, 2012, 13:12 #21814

    '..Even when George Graham lost his magic touch in the mid 1990s..' Sorry, I must have missed that period as I was too busy celebrating 1991 League title, 1993 Cup double and the 1994 Cup Winners Cup, before he was booted out 2 months short of reaching the 1995 Cup Winners Cup Final. 4 trophies in the final 5 years of his reign as manager unfortunately wont be repeated by the unmoveable Mr.W.

  35. Gee

    May 01, 2012, 13:08 #21813

    Can't disagree with what you have said. Wenger and the board would never admit it but the single biggest reason they want us to get top 4 is purely for the finance side. They're not in it to win it. We used to be regular Quarter finalists but now we are seeing us regress to just qualifying from the group. Top 4 to keep the finances alive is the main objective every single year. And is the reason why we have lost top players every single year since we left Highbury. I don't think many Arsenal fans see us going out and buying £50m players. However the frustration is that the money we do have is not being invested. He would rather make do with one striker for an entire season than spend £15m on securing another to lighten the load. The club stalled over £5m with Mata. Boy could we have done with his services this year instead of the joke of Gervinho Until Wenger leaves this won't stop

  36. Enfive Gooner

    May 01, 2012, 12:03 #21812

    Can't argue with any of this, He is bang on the money.

  37. Arsene is a liar

    May 01, 2012, 11:08 #21811

    There is nothing entertaining about our style under Wenger, in fact it is so boring and frustrating to watch. Lots of sideaways and stray passes, only one striker attacking the box and shambolic defending. Under him, we are decades away from winning the league or any other silverware.

  38. Gare Kekeke

    May 01, 2012, 11:06 #21810

    @ Joshua - I know Abramovic style takeovers are not permitted in Germany. The football authorities wouldn’t allow it. If only the authorities here would enforce the same thing. But that’s another thing. The point I’m trying to make is Dortmund have shown you can compete with the best/biggest (and in their case it’s Bayern Munich) through a combination of many things even if your resources are not at extraordinary levels such as the petrol-dollar filled clubs sadly we have here. Far too often Wenger makes excuses of failing to compete with Chelsea & Man City. I’m not saying he should spend stupid amounts like they do but spend efficiently and coach efficiently too. This is where all round good management comes in. Wenger is capable of it as he’s shown in the past, particularly when were at Highbury but now it’s one excuse after another. He’s better than that and he knows it. But admittedly certain things have gone against him such as the global economic downturn. Klopp has done this at Dortmund but his real test will come in the European Cup next season as I mentioned earlier, they disappointed this season as we could testify. Up The Arsenal!

  39. Chris

    May 01, 2012, 10:51 #21809

    Good article but I'd take issue with a couple of points. Firstly, I DO think it makes sense to have a manager to continue to develop the New Arsenal football ethos. The reason Wenger has stayed is because he's trying to create a culture - not just a team - Barca style. It took Barca long enough to perfect it - maybe we will too eventually! Patience is, sometimes, a virtue. Yes some may (quite fairly) take issue with aspects of the culture as developed so far but it is easier to take a technically gifted player and install the fighting spirit we want to see in him than to try to make a silk purse from a sow's ear of a player. Look and Chesney and Jack - two academy graduates with both technical ability and the right spirit. Secondly, the lack of ambition shown by the board is nothing new - for thirty years I have known I was following a team who probably wouldn't push the boat out to become the best in Europe, rather than just the best in England. Granted, even the latter is a long way off right now but I don't believe Wenger has settled for anything. He can see the light of FFP and increased commercial revenues at the end of the tunnel. I am optimistic about the future - not least because the board's grand project will fail if real, tangible success is not delivered within a few years and they must know that the 'brand' needs success. Hopefully, the spreadsheets will be looking so good (relative to competitors) within a few years that success will not only come but also be sustained. Where will Chelski be post-Abramovich?

  40. Chris

    May 01, 2012, 10:48 #21808

    Are we not bigger than 15 years ago because of sky? And the European cup being changed to let losers into it?

  41. Roy

    May 01, 2012, 10:10 #21806

    Honest write up,mate! I applaud Ūя̲̅ boldness! Tell my fellow Gunners!

  42. chris dee

    May 01, 2012, 9:45 #21805

    About time! This is an Arsenal supporter with passion! If we really want the club to join the likes of Barca,Real,A C Milan,Bayern,United etc then the club have to be as ruthless on the pitch as they are with the financial running of the club. And it is worth repeating ,it is a scandal that our club have never won the European Cup/Champions League which every major club in Europe has won at some stage. And f*****g 'ell if Chelsea win it this year.............. If,and it is still a major if,we finish third this year, I hope it is not viewed as some kind of major acheivement which is what the club soundbite will be.

  43. Joshua

    May 01, 2012, 9:23 #21804

    Kanu' grand dad... I think you have a point, We should have at least won against Galatasaray and Birmingham, having said that you cannot seriously be suggesting that losing to Wrexham is better than losing to Liverpool in a final? Or are you suggesting that losing to Spurs in a semi is better than losing to Barcelona in a final? You say yourself that getting to a final creates a one-off occasion and that is not entirely in the hands of one team or the other... finally are commonly said to be 50/50 affairs. And again lets us remember that Wenger refused to play a full team against Chelsea in one Carling Cup final. Whether that was the right or wrong decision is debatable but we got to final by playing a bunch of youngsters all the way. That is a fact that Graham couldn't match. Finally I always find it funny that the so-called ambitious fans want to win any old pot... be it Carling Cup or FA cup whilst Wenger, who is supposedly unambitious, makes it clear that for him the trophies that matter are the ECL and the league! What's so ambitious about wanting to win the carling cup or even the FA cup in this day and age? Most of the criticism of Wenger that I read on here basically boils down to people saying that he is not perfect... well guess what? No human being is perfect. Arsenal have not gone backwards by any reasonable measure... yes teams like Chelsea and ManCity have spent unprecedented amounts of cash very quickly but Arsenal have been growing organically. it may not be fast enough for some folks but that doesn't change the fact that we are an infinite bigger club that we were 15 years ago and we have done with the club's own resources. That should inspire pride not moaning. That's what I think.

  44. Robert Exley

    May 01, 2012, 8:18 #21803

    Name a club bigger than Arsenal to have never won the Champions League? Depends on what your definition of 'big' is - Glasgow Rangers, Galatasary and Dinamo Kiev have got a ****load of fans too and have never won the European Cup. I don't get what you base this theory of JCLs are less bothered about a lack of success than the long termers either. My dad has been an Arsenal fan since the 50s and said that he isn't bothered about winning things because he enjoys the way Arsenal play. I've never seen a Wenger in/out split based on length of support like you seem to do so. Though I certainly do get your point that the fans who pay the highest admission price in world football should be getting more for their money

  45. Joe Fitzpatrick

    May 01, 2012, 6:03 #21802

    Take a bow son. Should strike a chord with all true Gooners.

  46. Joe S.

    May 01, 2012, 5:01 #21801

    I guess you learn at an early age that the people who like the same bands as you or follow the same team as you do not necesarily have to be savvy, nor inteligent, nor God forbid your best friends. Judging by the comments of a Joshua or Canada it seems that nothing will change how they cling to the same tired straws. What most fans want to see is some ambition.The arguments rhat we should accept our rightful place in the World football heirarchy are as tame as those which continue to fear change and regeneration. Would yor position still hold firm should the next two games produce the worst possible scenario.

  47. Ken Dodd

    Apr 30, 2012, 23:49 #21800

    By jove,by jove what a beautiful day to shove Sir Alex's record since 2002 under Arsene's nose and ask,'Who has the prettiest wife now then Monsieur Wenger!?'

  48. Mandy dodd

    Apr 30, 2012, 23:01 #21799

    Colin, it was actually the universally revered George graham who said finishing in the top four this year would rank amongst wengers greatest achievements? Joshua, you write some real sense.

  49. Kanu's Grandad

    Apr 30, 2012, 22:49 #21798

    Joshua you summed Wenger up perfectly.In 9 cup finals he LOST 5.Come the big one off games he lost more than he won.On the other hand GG lost one final out of 5.Getting to finals you need to win them.Its taken Wenger 15 years to win 7 trophies GG won 6 in only 8 years.remember GG took on the dominant Liverpool and destroyed them.And of course GG left Wenger the back 5

  50. joshua

    Apr 30, 2012, 22:47 #21797

    TPM, You can compare the different eras any way you like. TBH I don't care. You can compare Sagna, Clichy, Fabregas, Van Persie, Walcott, Nasri, Adebayor, Chamakh, Thomas Vermaelen, Rosicky, Kosceilny or Alex Song with GG's worst or best, it makes no difference. Those are good players. I actually agree with you that comparing across eras is not very helpful but I'm not the one who got the GG is better than Wenger thing going. I have to confess that the "AKB" thingy cracks me up. I suppose that the implication is that you some how know better that AW... now that may well be the case but I would really like to know on what you base that assertion? Is there a team you manage that I can go and see? The idea that a blogger is more knowledgeable than a man like Wenger is quite amusing but that's the world of today I suppose. As for ambition... I don't think that wishful thinking qualifies as ambition. You say that we could have spent our money better... fair enough. Can you point to a team with a smaller budget that has finished above us? Surely that would be the proof of the profligacy you allege? Even spurs, when you consider their transfer outlay as well as their wages have a total spend not dissimilar to ours and are about the same as us... yet we have more depth than them! So who's example should we follow. Abuse and pejorative words are no substitute for thinking. Who's example do you think we should follow? @ Gare Keke. We beat Dortmund in the Champions league this season... we were better than them by that measure. I honestly don't understand your point. The fact is that What Klopp has done at Dortmund wouldn't be possible in the same way here because for one thing Abrahmovic style takeovers are not allowed in Germany. So whatever Klopp is doing he is working in a completely different environment. It really would be helpful if people tried to understand the context of the comparisons they make. Good night one and all. PTBAG

  51. Joshua

    Apr 30, 2012, 22:14 #21796

    I keep meaning to leave this blog alone and do some work but I keep reading the most bizarrely sepia tinted stuff about the Graham era. I was an Arsenal fan then! Anfield in 89 was magic and is still the best night of my life as an Arsenal fan, For that I will always thank George and be grateful but some of the other things some of us appear to believe is just fantasy. Fact No 1: George Graham has an inferior winning percentage to Arsene Wenger GG = 49.51% AW= 57.78%. Bear in mind that Wenger has managed over 840 Arsenal games and GG managed about 460 games. Fact No 2: George Graham's success was mostly in the era of the first division when the vast differences in wealth between clubs didn't manifest itself as much. Fact No 3: Graham actually finished both 10th and 12th in the league and who remembers that we once scored a total of just 40 goals in one season? We've all forgotten that one, eh? Wenger has never finished below 4th in 15 years despite the financial handicap of the stadium. Graham won 2 league titles,2 league cups, 1 FA cup and 1 CWC. Wenger has won 3 league titles, 4 FA cups (including 2 doubles) in addition to one lost FA cup final, 2 lost League Cup Finals and one lost Champions league final and a lost Uefa Cup final. Those are the facts. Now imagine if the league was still organised as it was during the first division days where teams had more or less the same resources and the wealth gap wasn't so huge... would Wenger win more or less? Anyway the hypotheticals are irrelevant as the bare facts speak for themselves... George did great things for Arsenal but he is not in Wenger's class that is what the facts clearly say. And if you factor in the Rune Hauge/ transfer bung scandal then there's no comparison at all. I don't mean to offend anyone but some times the truth, no matter how painful, needs to be told.

  52. tpm

    Apr 30, 2012, 21:40 #21795

    tosh from joshua. why compare some of the worst players of GG's era with the best of AWs??? just suiting your own akb agenda. why not compare jensen and kiwomya with chamakh and denilson? limpar, wrighty, rocky, thomas, would be a fairer comparison. football has chnaged massively now though, its global GG was coach in another era, its ridiulous to say aw's players are so much better, is a comparing 2 different things. the article is spot on, and the likes of joshua, and others who have no ambition, have brought this club down. justify AW's wages, his tactics and the players he has shown such faith in when everyone can see money would be better spent elsewhere, gerv, park, diaby, flappy, almuni, deni, etc etc. can you honestly say he has used what money he has spent (and i dont doubt for one minute he could have easily and safely spent much more had he wished) wisely in the last 5 years???

  53. Steve

    Apr 30, 2012, 20:02 #21794

    Shame on you CanadaGooner happy to finish 20 points behind the champions not even challenging form day one.Happy to finish also rans.Out of Europe at the first knockout stage.This is the club Wenger and Gazidis would have us believe we are a European powerhouse.CL wins Madrid 9 Milan 7 Liverpool 5 Barca 4 Bayern 4 Ajax 4 Utd 3 Arsenal NONE

  54. Gare Kekeke

    Apr 30, 2012, 19:59 #21793

    On behalf of us ‘deluded’ fans, we do not think The Arsenal is on par with Real Madrid, Barcelona et al. But we would like to see our club show more ambition on the pitch. Borussia Dortmund is a big player in German football just like The Arsenal is in England. But like every other club in Germany, they have to live in the shadow of Bayern Munich, by an almighty distance the biggest club in German football. Just like The Arsenal has to accept that there are two clubs bigger than us in England, Manchester United & Liverpool. Back in the 1990s, Dortmund under Ottmar Hitzfeld won back-to-back Bundesliga titles and in his second attempt, the European Cup at the home of Bayern Munich against Juventus. True, Dortmund experienced financial problems in the noughties but since overcoming them they are now a club revived under Jurgen Klopp with a good young side in a period when Bayern Munich have reached two European Cup finals. Although granted, Dortmund were disappointing in this season’s European Cup. The foundations are in place at our club thanks to Wenger for us to kick on but seem to restrict ourselves which I don’t agree with. Again superb article. Up The Arsenal!

  55. Ronster

    Apr 30, 2012, 19:45 #21792

    No disrespect to Arsene,but George's coaching ability,defensive structure and technical ability,for me,is far better.I think Arsene Wenger is a magnificent physiologist and psychologist.These are the areas where he excels.George was an outstanding coach.I won six trophies under him including the Cup Winners' Cup against Parma.You kind of think the guy has got something.That back four,Lee Dixon,Steve Bould,Nigel Winterburn and myself,doesn't happen by luck.We worked hard on organisation morning and afternoon.We hated George for it,but we were on top of our game and we reaped the benefits.......Tony Adams quoted on an online Mirror article dated 9th June 2011.

  56. Big Andy

    Apr 30, 2012, 19:28 #21791

    Absolutely brilliant article. The problem that we have right now is that so many of our young fans think that the club was created on the day that Wenger walked through the door. Since the Herbert Chapman days we have been a massive club, and we ought to have massive expectations. And finishing third - TWENTY POINTS BEHIND THE CHAMPIONS - is simply not good enough. I've always thought that Wenger is a great coach but not a great manager. We can definitely do better than him. The problem that we have right now is that as long as he is making money, Kroenke will not dismiss him.

  57. Sarf Lunden

    Apr 30, 2012, 19:01 #21790

    Stockholm Syndrome - hostages express empathy & positive feelings towards their captors to the point of defending them = AKB. We've listened and agreed to the excuses for failure since the Paris CL final. Happy to make up the numbers, thankfully in the top 4,but never looking like winning apart from the Carling. And we screwed that up. All this season we've an injury to RVP away from ending up out of Europe. The refreshing part has been the AST, away fans and then the home fans breaking through the AKB's and pointing out Wenger that he is only as good as the results.

  58. Stevesam

    Apr 30, 2012, 19:01 #21789

    Wilson - Rice,McLintock,Simpson,McNab - Armstrong,Storey,Graham,George - Radford, Kennedy. Ten times better than anything we have seen in the last 7 seasons, this squad won the Double and a European trophy when it was difficult ! All legends.

  59. Joshua

    Apr 30, 2012, 18:39 #21788

    Moscow Gooner. It's really not that difficult to understand. The European Cup was first contested in 1955 not 1970.. English teams didn't join till the 60's, if I recall correctly, and in all that period Arsenal have contested one final. One FINAL. That is all since 1955... we can try and lie to ourselves all we like, we can harken back to 1930s when England was the supposed center of the world and none of it means very much because there was no European Cup then. To drive the point home compare the greatest footballers who have played for Madrid, Barca, Bayern or even AC Milan with the players who have played for Arsenal in our history and ask yourself honestly who is greater... where is our De Stefano or Puskas? Who have to match those illustrous names. We have a great history and we are rightly proud of our history but we are not in as big as Real, there's no shame in that... What is true is that we have grown fantastically in the last 15 years and we are now an established name on the European stage and that is why Podolski has signed for us... he is not interested in winning the carling Cup or even the FA Cup, he has come to team that plays the ECL regularly. English insularity is the reason we didn't join the European Cup when it first started and English insularity is why our golden era in the 30s is not more widely known (We, the English, refused to travel)... and that insuarity is what informs your post... with all due respect.

  60. Seven Kings Gooner

    Apr 30, 2012, 18:20 #21787

    Very good article and I am pleased I am not alone in my opinion that we are becoming a Saturday afternoon "Day out" for some fans. The latest Gooner poll showed that 70% of those voting would prefer to be 3rd in the league than in 2 cup semi finals. (Referring to Chelsea who are now in 2 finals!) For me it speaks volumes about the mindset and ambition of some of our fans - but the board must be delighted!

  61. CanadaGooner

    Apr 30, 2012, 18:09 #21786

    I'm sorry Matthew, but I have to agree with some of the other posts above regarding the contents of this article. Thanks for posting it though (most people post nothing, but are always so keen to criticize what others spend their quality time posting). The main issue I have with your article is the depth (or lack of); you assume you know what AC Milan or Bayern Munich's reactions are; but both clubs have hardly retain their giddy heights in European football? In any case, both leagues are a poor shade of the premiership overall, not to say premiership teams would fare better in a head-to-head though. I dont know a single Arsenal fan who is content with finishing 3rd or 4th. What I do know, are several Arsenal fans who understand that ranting endlessly on an online forum isnt going to turn our fortunes. Once upon a time Barcelona couldnt lose, now they find themselves out of the champions league and probably 2nd to Real in La Liga. What's worse is their uncertain future under Pep's deputy: and it's the same set of players who were once so invincible. Fabregas thought he was moving over to fill his trophy cabinet didnt he? The reality of modern day football is that some clubs develop a culture that wins; but you dont have more than one or two of such per league. So, right now, Arsenal are not one of those 2 as far as the premier league goes, and until we get back to that point where our culture is all about winning trophies, we have to be satisfied with avoiding oblivion, and that is why some of us are still quite elated when we go on a run or surprise pundits by still finishing above clubs they tauted as certainties to finish above us (e.g. big-spending liverpool and the likes of Spurs and Chelsea)

  62. Reg

    Apr 30, 2012, 18:01 #21785

    Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, AC Milan? Only one side out of these really are an outstanding side (& they've slipped a notch or two this year)! So the answer is we can compete and Matthew you're right it's about attitude. For all the JCL's who weren't there, the Graham sides from 1986-1991 were way above what we've witnessed the last 3 or 4 years.

  63. Mike

    Apr 30, 2012, 17:43 #21784

    GG also managed in a era very different to today. The football world has opened up - highly talented players are coming in from areas never seen by GG et al. Someone jokingly and misguidedly posted that AW would buy a couple of North African Strikers - is that the same part of Africa where Drogba, Ba, Cisse, E'to and even Adebayour come from. (Try to think of an English stiker who is as effective as those). The so called lower team are streets ahead of where they were 10 years ago. In GG era and previously, manager worked with well known, loyal mainly British players - I think a maximum of two foreign players were allowed in the squad. Choice was limited.

  64. Jim

    Apr 30, 2012, 17:37 #21783

    Great article. Let's go back to the glory days of George Graham, when we finished 10th in the premier league in 1993. 10th! Where West Brom are today. Oh, but we won two cups that year. Funny how Liverpool, Man United, Barcelona, Inter and so on are able to win two cups in a season and finish much higher up the table.

  65. rudytel

    Apr 30, 2012, 17:27 #21782

    Good article. I would gladly suffer a brand of football that's not as pleasing on the eye if it meant we could once again be a dominant force and bring the title home. The Champions league will continue to elude us until we achieve domestic glory for that I'm certain. I agree with all the Mourinho comments, he is a great manager but he is a walking soap opera who's right at home with the chavs. I reckon a David Moyes type character would fit the bill if AW were to walk in 2014.

  66. Joshua

    Apr 30, 2012, 16:34 #21780

    One last contribution. I have great respect for George Graham and I am one of the first to defend the team of that era from the accusation of playing boring Stoke-like football. George's teams played some great football. Beautiful football at times especially on the way to his second title. Nevertheless there's no way in world that a lover of football can say, like Ron @13:57 says, that you enjoyed that period more than the Wenger era. That cannot simply be the case if your sole concern is football. Wenger has been more successful, more stylish, has won more important trophies, has greater achievements, going unbeaten an entire season being one of them, and has achieved his success against greater odds. People forget that Wenger is the only manager in premiership history to finish above Fergie having spent less money. And not a little less but waaay less. And he didn't just finish above Fergie he built a much better team with less money. George Graham deserves respect and I would never denigrate his achievements but anyone who enjoyed the transfer bung scandal and Rune Hauge or watching Chris Kiwomya and John Jensen more than watching Henry, Vieira, Pires and Ljungberg et al must be a masochist. Wenger is arguably Arsenal's greatest manager and history will bracket him solely with Herbert Chapman. George Graham, bless him, is not in Wenger's class. Would George have been able to cope with simultaneous appearance of Abro at Chelsea and the stadium? How many managers in world football would have been able to cope with our situation in last 7 years... and still we've had Fabregas and Van Persie and actually challenged for the title.

  67. The Fonz

    Apr 30, 2012, 16:24 #21779

    Well written but this article serves only to prove further that many of the contributors to this board have really limited understanding of the reality of modern football. The author is yet another from the "champ manager" breed and it does make me chuckle

  68. Kevin

    Apr 30, 2012, 16:05 #21778

    Excellent post Matthew.For too long i have believed our fans are turning into Spuds fans.Beat our North London rivals and finish above them is now the priority for some of our fans.What about winning the title or any other trophy for that matter.It seems some are happy just to finish about the Spuds.Why would any Gooner not want Mourinho as manager?He doesnt play the Wenger way.Too right he doesnt.The man is a winning machine.George never went more than one season without winning a trophy.Wenger is still manager for what he did pre 2006 is that anyway to run a club.Living in the past

  69. Moscow Gooner

    Apr 30, 2012, 15:59 #21776

    I don t get this 'historically Arsenal are not as big as Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Man Utd, Liverpool, Macclesfield Town [INSERT YOUR CLUB OF CHOICE]crap' To my mind this shows incredible ignorance of Arsenal s (and football s) history: in the 1930 s where were Real Madrid? Where were Bayern Munich? Where were Man Utd? In 1934/5 - for example - Arsenal averaged 46 000 a game, Man Utd were in the middle of the second division and averaged 22 000. (Bayern Munich were playing as amateurs in a regional league in front of an average 5 000 fans.) It seems that for some people on here believe organised football began in about 1970! Even in 1968/9 Bertie Mee - at a time when Arsenal had won nothing for 15 years - could stop his players celebrating finishing 4th in the league, so why have we become so tolerant of repeated failure in this century? The point about the AW style is also valid: Arsenal teams have traditionally been built on strong defensive qualities - there is nothing 'traditional' about Arsenal under AW. Look at the plastic Disneyesque excuse for a badge we have now as opposed to the proper club crest we used to have.... The players arriving in an underground car park - kepy well away from the punters who pay their wages. Etc etc etc. We want our Arsenal back!!

  70. Tony Evans

    Apr 30, 2012, 15:19 #21775

    I agree with Ronster and Ron about the George Graham years. We actually played some good stuff but were still solid at the back and the boring, boring Arsenal tag was thrown at us more out of envy than anything else. Ever since I started supported Arsenal we have had a reputation for being solid and giving nowt soft away. We still had it up to 2005 but Wenger has now turned us in to Westham or the Spuds (lots of style but soft as butter) and that is why titles and trophies are going to be out of reach until someone at the club recognises this and does something about it.

  71. Jimmy

    Apr 30, 2012, 14:21 #21774

    @Will Mourinho would bankrupt Arsenal just like he bankrupted Porto where he won the UEFA cup and the CL in succesive seasons.

  72. Ron

    Apr 30, 2012, 13:57 #21772

    Ronster - Spot on mate. There are many like me who enjoyed the GG years far more than the Wenger years. Arsenal were once a Club of proud tradition, honour and class exemplified by skill, strength and force of will to win on a football pitch. GG knew it, knew the Club and worked with the Clubs historical legacy. What are we now? We're West Ham of the 1960s,without the same quantity of truly class players, but certainly with exactly the same ice cream, soft underbelly and yellow streak of cowardly tendencies running through many of the Clubs players characters. Wenger has had a massive effect on the Clubs culture and ethics, some of it positively benign, but nobody can tell me that his own persona, characterised by his resentful excuse seeking, self pitying, mardy arsed, year in year out bellyaching and whining hasnt had a malignant effect on the Club. We re not even smiling, happy go lucky losers , we're grouchy, deeply embittered losers worthy of any French leadership figure or institution.

  73. Joshua

    Apr 30, 2012, 13:53 #21771

    Nick, What I am saying is that Arsenal are not as big as either Bayern Munich, AC Milan or Real Madrid historically so for Matthew Bazell, the writer of this article, to expect Arsenal fans, reasonable and sober Arsenal fans, to act like fans of any of those clubs betrays a basic misunderstanding of both the historical position of the club he claims to support and, most of all, human nature. My view is that the basic premise on which this article is based is misguided... the Deloitte thingy that ranks clubs financially is mostly an accounting trick and an irrelevance to boot. To understand what a club can do and how well it can compete you need to look beyond accounting tricks that at the bottom mean very little and look at the context. The question for Arsenal football club is how much can we responsibly spend on transfers?... Not where deloitte's accounting places us based on assets etc. Chelsea may not make as much as we do but what they can spend depends not on what they make but on how Abro is feeling. The same applies to Man City. United have had a huge stadium for ages and their commercial deals are not subject to the one off pressure of needing to get funding in place to build their stadium.. that's one thing... in addition we have a stadium to pay for, which handicaps us to the tune of 20m a year. Deloitte doesn't tell you any of that does it? The relevant question here is how big are we really?... and having determined what our real position in the world of football is, realistically analysing whether we punching at, above or below our weight. It never ceases to amuse me that fans who quote David Dein in everything never recall that he believed that the stadium would make us uncompetitive for a long time unless we got our own billionaire sugar daddy and when I say uncompetitive I don't mean fourth place either! The main problem is that too many fans take what are absolutely great achievements for granted. Ask the fans of Valencia how difficult building a modern stadium is... we built an ultra modern stadium in the heart of one of the most expensive cities in the world... and people whinge about ambition.

  74. Gare Kekeke

    Apr 30, 2012, 13:48 #21770

    Good article Matthew. I enjoyed reading it. Arsene Wenger’s place in The Arsenal’s history is assured and rightly so. But as supporters we must not forget the old mantra in football ‘no individual is bigger than the club’. And that includes Wenger whether people like it or not. The almighty myth over the years is that throughout the Graham era we were boring. Really? In each of his two titles winning seasons we were the First Division’s top goalscorers and the football was entertaining during that period. Rocky (God rest his soul), Merson, Limpar, Smith et al I could go on. We just so happened to have a bloody good defensive unit at the same time which even continued into the early years of the Wenger era. And you’re right to mention Milan & Bayern Munich in comparison to us. But they can also point between themselves, eleven European Cups (fingers crossed twelve), hence why they see third in their own leagues as failure. We should get upset when we come up short and not even competing for honours and not use flimsy excuses. Other great clubs are never happy when they come up short so why should we be any different? I personally wouldn’t want Mourinho as our manager because of the theatre that comes with him. Regardless of who he manages, it becomes the Jose Mourinho show when it should be about the players as well as him. Pressing one of his fingers against his lips in front of Liverpool fans in a cup final, eye gauging a Barcelona coach at the Camp Nou and lying about Anders Frisk are just a few examples of his ‘show’. And we must not forget The Arsenal is a club who uphold many values, principles and traditions. Mourinho would disregard all of them immediately just to be successful. Granted, he’s an excellent manager and his record speaks for itself (soon to be extended) but his win-at-all-costs attitude is something I personally loathe. Wenger’s eventual successor (please let it be Guardiola within the next couple of years!) should be allowed to do the job he sees fit as long as he shows class & dignity amongst many other positive attributes. In no way should he have to put up with Wenger comparisons. And I agree with your last sentence 100%. Up The Arsenal!

  75. maguiresbridge gooner

    Apr 30, 2012, 13:45 #21769

    Your right Matthew this club is happy and contented to finish third or fourth and the only time it gets angry is when its manager doesn't like a decision the ref made and takes it out on the fourth official.Regards the chavs titles in 05 06 it was unbelievable to hear arsenal fans say they would rather keep playing beautiful football even if it meant winning nothing i suppose you could say we're still doing it to a certain extent your right about wengers successor when the time does come he will have to be allowed to do it his way although i think we would all be in agreement not the tony pulis way.We all should expect the proper attitude and genuine desire to be the best and no more being content with third or fourth and that is really going to have to be shown next season.

  76. Ron

    Apr 30, 2012, 13:39 #21768

    Can see your points, however Arsenal arent even remotely close to being like Barca, Madrid, Man U, Munich etc and never have been and it may take decades (if ever) to become so, hence your expectations are a little false right now. The Club would need an absolute owner to accelerate the Clubs transition to greater status than that historically enjoyed (but to be honest even that hasnt given Chelsea any great pedigree and theyve had it for 8 years). HOWEVER, this stadium move is a step towards a greater profile and to use Wengers favourite analogy, the 'handbrake' appears to be on in the boardroom as well as being on and shown in the teams oft insipid performances on the pitch. The Club either isnt making enough money for faster progression or its frightened to become a truly great European Club in which case all of the stuff they espoused before leaving Highbury ie need a new ground to challenge Utd etc etc was all hot air and amounted more like to an underlying agenda and desire to line their own pockets at the expense of the team. The Boards 'insurance policy' protecting them from real fans opposition at the moment is the relatively recent ground move and need to reduce debt on that. I suspect, the Club will eveolve to a totally new Board/owners before much changes. Im of the view that all of them (and i inc Kronke) are merely holding the fort until a new progressive Board takes the helm there. Having said all of this, the Club each season eschews the chance to win trophies by its deliberate aborting of the Cups each season and via managerial failure to aquire fit and healthy players who can make a diffference under even the present model. Arsenal has become a 'gentlemens Club' on a far greater scale than it always has been ( ie the Old Etonian ethics are still deeply ingrained and still run deep there). Theyre all comfortable and non more so than the esteemed Mr Wenger - and why not on 6-7 Mill pa, who himself has doubtless earmarked a leather bound chair for when he finally walks up the stairwell to the Boardroom. Its not the non challenges each season and the not winning Cups etc or even the oft increasing defeats to rubbish teams each Season thats made me give up going to football, its the bull**** and falsities that are trotted out cynically and consistently from that Boardroom and Wenger every close Season plus the amount they ask us fans to pay to listen to it.

  77. aj

    Apr 30, 2012, 13:28 #21767

    The problem when you get the spoils even if you don't win, is that people find it difficult to give the extra 20% needed to be the best.Paying Wenger £7 million a year not to win anything is insane.Paying average players £50,000 plus to go through the motions is equally insane. Whilst the fans put up with being continually mugged off by the club, nothing will change. It's interesting that the players who have had to fight to get where they are,like Rosicky,Arteta,Vermaelen and Koscielny are the ones who seem give more and the ones who have earned vast amounts early in their careers give considerably less.

  78. Tony Evans

    Apr 30, 2012, 13:16 #21766

    I know that some replies will say that Arsenal are not as big a club as AC Milan or even Bayern Munich and that is right in my opinion but I do agree that it makes me angry too when I hear JCL fans say that style is more important then winning by any means. I am not saying I wish to see Arsenal resort to thuggery or cheating but I would take a win any day of the week rather then playing a team off the park with 80% possession and then losing to a set piece or similar. We have all witnessed that sort of scenario too many times now and we have to start next season at least looking like we mean business with a bit of substance about us. Trouble is under Wenger that is not likely to happen.

  79. Will

    Apr 30, 2012, 13:16 #21765

    Jose Mourinho would bankrupt us. How much did he spend at Chelsea on a squad that had already had over £100M spent on it. how much has he spent at Real? It is easy being a chequebook manager just as mush as it is easy to be an armchair manager.

  80. Nick

    Apr 30, 2012, 12:58 #21764

    Joshua, are you saying then that Arsenal are "not" a big club?. are you telling me were not the 5th richest club in the world with arguably the least debt?, you talk about supply and demand , in football terms the demand has and always will be silverware, the supply however is not keeping up, and in the 125 years of our existence we have won the league on 13 occasions compared to the paltry 2 or maybe 3 of our less than illustrious neighbours, ten of those prior to Mr Wenger, nobody says we have a divine right to win things but we bloody well have got a right to demand that we actually COMPETE!!

  81. Colin

    Apr 30, 2012, 12:44 #21762

    Well said i am fed up with fans saying if we finish top 4 this season it would be Wengers greatest achievement.Are they serious?.Finishing 4th in the worst ever premiership is better than going unbeaten for 49 games!!!! This defeatist attitude has been aided by the stupid comments that 4th place is as good as winning a trophy which we lapped up by the AKB's.Can you imagine Fergie saying 4th was success?.We moved to the Emirates to compete with Man Utd Real Madrid and Barcelona not The Spuds and Newcastle.And we are fed the bull from the club that we are still a big club

  82. Nick

    Apr 30, 2012, 12:43 #21760

    Succinctly put and spot on, i couldnt agree more i have said before that the currency of a football team is trophies, whether it be the F.A.vase , the prem title, or the johnsons paint trophy, its what clubs at all levels should strive for, and even more so for a huge club like THE ARSENAL, this seeming contentment with qualifying for the champions league every season is intolerable, and while i accept that no club has a divine right to win silverware, nevertheless we should not be expected to sanguine about it, indeed we should be bloody well pissed about it, or we will rightly be perceived as having no ambition, and top players will not be attracted to a club like, that except as a stepping stone to greater things, like the author i have no agenda with Wenger and am grateful for past glorys, but just how long are we prepared to wait for fresh glory while the present incumbent stubbornly pursues his own holy grail,his way. I hope Wenger can indeed win us the ultimate prizes, but i fear without his being willing to accept compromise, and maybe even admit to being wrong in some of his decision making, we will be no further forward at the end of next season than we are now, if, as some believe, he has been hamstrung by the board, then he needs to man up and say so, as a Brian Clough or a Jose Mourhino would do, faint heart never won fair lady or the premier league title.

  83. Ronster

    Apr 30, 2012, 12:37 #21759

    The best article on this site in 2012 by a country mile.To those who have or are about to denigrate George Graham consider this.When George arrived from Millwall in the summer of 1986,Arsenal had not won the league for 15 years and he inherited a squad that contained only one player who had won anything to shout about,Viv Anderson.Yet by the time George had moved on we had celebrated two league titles toppling the mighty Liverpool empire and had also bagged a European pot.When Wenger first glanced at his squad in the autumn of 1996,he had the pleasure of seeing multiple league and european medalists several of whom had experience of plying their trade on the continent and in World Cup tournaments.Any new manager coming in now and glancing at the Arsenal squad in 2012 would certainly have his work cut out.

  84. The Noise

    Apr 30, 2012, 12:35 #21758

    Awesome stuff from Matthew there... a true Gooner & a good pal of mine! Knows exactly what he's talking about and sums up the feeling of the majority of Gooner who remember anything before 1996 before we became Arsene FC! Can't wait to read the AKB's try & pick through the bones of this and probably tell Matthew to 'FODTL' (F**k Off Down The Lane)

  85. IMAC

    Apr 30, 2012, 12:32 #21757

    An excellent article, couldn't have put it any better, facts.

  86. jaygunn

    Apr 30, 2012, 12:29 #21756

    The problem with us now is, “yes” we are striving to become the perfect business model club, but our main problem is wenger or the club have not strengthened properly every years. If they had added 2 quality players each year we would probably have won something and would be in a far greater position. We have a decent first 11 but it doesn’t take a genius to look at the bench and see the lack of quality players sitting on it. We need to have a summer where we spend more than we normally do to re-enforce the squad to a high level, as we clearly have some players who are ok, but not good enough for the arsenal. I do fear that this won’t happen and we could be in for another nearly season at best, or a minimum requirement top 4 finish.

  87. Joshua

    Apr 30, 2012, 12:23 #21755

    I'm sorry but this article isn't serious. Arsenal are not Real Madrid or Bayern Munich or even Barcelona. It is not a lack of ambition to be able to assess the club you support realistically. We have never won the European Cup, in fact we've been in one final in our 125 year existence. How many European Cups have Bayern, Real, Barca or even Liverpool won? In the 15 years before Wenger we finished behind Spurs on 7 occasions, is that not a more realistic appraisal of what our club's actual position in the world is? You and I have no given right to success and most intelligent people understand that it takes real hard work to lay long lasting foundations... it's not as easy as sack Wenger and get whoever no matter what some of our fans may think. The foundations of today's Barca was actually laid by Johann Cruyff! It seems to me that there are two types of Arsenal fans at the moment... the realists and the deluded. The Realists on the whole appreciate that the stadium had to be built to push the club forward and accept that such a huge undertaking has affected our ability to compete at very top. The Deluded, on the other hand, imagine that Arsenal are now on a par with Real madrid, Barcelona and Bayern Munich and imagine that the only thing holding the club back is Arsené Wenger. There's so many things wrong with this simplistic world view that pointing them out will take too much time As for high ticket prices... if you don't like the price don't pay it. If you are correct in assuming that Arsenal charge too much the club will be forced to reduce their prices. It's simple economics. Supply, demand and all that. I'd also like to point out that our ticket prices are very comparable to what Spurs charge so I don't understand where all this moaning about ticket prices at Arsenal being the most expensive comes from... it would be great if we could drop ticket prices and get more ordinary fans in but that's different matter.

  88. Judge Fred

    Apr 30, 2012, 12:00 #21752

    I would not really be bothered if Jose were the next manager - of course some candidates are more palatable than others but the fact remains that I support Arsenal Football Club. As such I want us to be successful, the style of football is less important than the end result. Of course I would prefer to see skill and flair but there is nothing wrong with the old 1-0 to the Arsenal. I dont like Mourinho as a man but if he were next Arsenal manager he would have my 100% support, as he would have the same aspirations for our Great Club as I would. I am getting all misty-eyed now....I remember having aspirations of winning the league...and the odd cup. Them were the days...

  89. Frzium

    Apr 30, 2012, 11:51 #21751

    You are very correct