More Euros Reflections

Online Ed: Three of the last four sorted



More Euros Reflections

Hodgson: Wesults merchant


So six days on from my initial ramblings on Euro2012 so far, here’s some more.

The three sides who would had been expected to win the quarter finals so far delivered. Portugal had to keep plugging away to beat the Czechs, but the deserved goal came eventually and thankfully. I know the Portuguese aren’t everyone’s cup of tea because of certain of the personalities, but as a spectacle, we are far likelier to get a watchable semi-final against Spain than it would have been if the Czechs had somehow sneaked through. And Cristiano Ronaldo and Pepe up against some of their Real Madrid team-mates is a potential soap opera in itself. The Portuguese record in major finals has been fairly decent for some time now, with the nation reaching at least the semi-finals in 2000, 2004 and 2006. Eventually, they are going to come good and this might be their year. To an extent, they are carried by their best players, but tournaments have been won in this way before, not least 1986 when Diego Maradona carried along a workmanlike Argentinian side to glory.

However, my money is still on the Germans, who dismantled a Greek side that were a little too cynical for my tastes on Friday evening. Joachim Low has been at the helm since before the 2006 World Cup, even if Jurgen Klinsmann was officially in charge then. Two semi finals and a final is quite a record, with narrow defeats to Italy and Spain preventing them from fulfilling their promise. What is significant is that, during this time, new blood has been introduced that has improved the team, mixing the established efficiency and organization with some genuine flair. Compared to Spain, to these eyes they are actually a more entertaining prospect, because they seem more incisive and exciting. I think if Spain had Lionel Messi, they would be far more watchable, but without him, the metronomical distribution and keep ball lacks an element of fantasy. Do not get me wrong, it is very good on a technical level, but there is a sense of just waiting for the inevitable with Spain, and an accompanying lack of tension. Perhaps I have become a little bored of them winning all the time.

Their result against France was no great surprise as the French decided to go for caution rather than the jugular. It wasn’t a tactic that suited their personnel and I am not convinced France have ever had the players to deliver such a gameplan. France are at their best when they try to be expansive and Laurent Blanc, an accomplished defender, should consider this as their best way forward. They took apart Estonia in a pre-tournament friendly and went for a win against Ukraine, on both occasions delivering excellent performances. They took their eye off the ball against Sweden with the consequence of finishing second in the group and the attendant meeting with Spain. But they got their tactics all wrong last night and several of their players underperformed. Laurent Koscielny was not one of those though, and did his reputation no harm. I suspect he will be starting their matches next season. It was also interesting to see Yann M’Vila play after all the stories linking him to Arsenal. Although he did little that was noticeable, neither did Gilberto a lot of the time. You only really take notice of holding midfield players when they make costly errors, which is why there are doubts about Alex Song. However, M’Vila seemed to throw a bit of a strop when substituted for perfectly sound reasons given the state of the game. That really does not augur well, and perhaps symbolized France’s main problem – a lack of real team spirit. It is difficult to win a tournament without that.

Spain seem to have it, and seem to be writing a new chapter in the history of football formations by fielding a team without a striker. In a sense though, it is merely what Barcelona have been doing since the day they decided Lionel Messi would play central. The decision has been made to forget the need for a player in an advanced position to hold up the ball as the team move forward territorially, en masse, in possession of it. It allows them to dominate numerically in a congested midfield, but if the passing and movement are sharp enough, then there is no requirement for a 50 yard ‘out ball’. Fabregas is being used in the Messi role, and is certainly an adept finisher as well as a quality creator of chances for others. He may not be as good at Messi beating players with the ball at his feet, but is good enough to ensure at least a goal a game, which is often enough for victory with Spain. They face two difficult tests though. I imagine Portugal will not be quite disciplined enough to overcome them, and it is hard to see beyond Germany as their final opposition, a repeat of the 2008 final and the 2010 semi-final. I think the Germans might actually triumph this time though because of their own improvement.

Naturally, that would depend on beating the victors of this evening’s remaining quarter final between England and Italy. It could go either way. Italy do not seems to have as many star names as they did in the past, but it is difficult to argue against a side stuffed with players that have just completed an unbeaten season in Serie A. That suggests an ability to carve out results and two draws and a win are typical Italian tournament form. At this stage, it is all about results. Performances are a bonus really. Yet, England are getting results too. They do not look anything special, but have played two fairly disciplined matches. Sweden was a crazy game, an aberration that would have had Roy Hodgson tearing his hair out. The two goals conceded there were not the kind of thing I associate with a Hodgson team, and I am sure he will have addressed this since.

There is little doubt that the manager is adept at result football, and frankly, that is England’s best hope. They could beat Italy this evening, even if they have a long record of failure to beat major sides in tournament knockout games. Psychologically, it is something that England need to change. Belief is key to winning trophies (Arsenal take note) and it has been lacking for a long time, with tournament exit after tournament exit digging the nation’s football self-confidence into a deeper and deeper hole. This evening, the key is really to try and restrict the opportunities for Pirlo and Cassano to shape the game. Both are matchwinners. Balotelli is such a wild card that he could do absolutely anything, including seeing his team reduced to ten men. That a number of Italy’s players are on a yellow card that would see a further caution lead to a semi-final suspension is of no help at all. Their players are more than happy to take one for the team, so expect no shortage of niggly fouls to break up any potential England progress upfield.

It will be a tense game. Possibly dramatic. We are due a close dramatic game in the quarter finals. A penalty shoot-out even, and it’s about time England won one of those. Should they beat Italy, it would be a big result and reason for celebration. However, I suspect that would be the end of the road this summer. Germany look another level entirely, a better side than that which beat England 4-1 in Bloemfontein two years ago. But a last four place would be a good return for England given the chaos that led up to the finals this year.

Not 100% sure, but if the muse takes me and there feels like anything fresh to say, I might post again after the semis. If not, then after the final, with less than a fortnight to go before Arsenal’s opening pre-season fixture – the triangle tournament at St Mary’s. A whole two weeks without football!

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comments

  1. James

    Mar 03, 2013, 20:10 #32801

    Glad to see someone give Gilberto his due. When Henry left, I would've made Gilberto captain rather than moving him on the following summer - it was that calm temperament and defensive mindset that I feel would've served us well. It was just a shame that Flamini played him out of a regular starting place, given how that turned out.

  2. CanadaGooner

    Mar 03, 2013, 1:57 #32790

    @maguiresbridge gooner; good man! Always good to have an umpire at these events. I think you and I (plus a few others) have been saying this for months: we all love and respect wenger for what he did for arsenal, but the reality is that his arrogance got in the way of his continued progress and the club's success. He will still be a hard act to follow, but there has to be change at the club and it might have to start with the manager, then players and the hopefully a new board

  3. HowardL

    Mar 02, 2013, 20:30 #32786

    I was lucky enough to be at Doncaster when we scraped home on penalties almost entirely due to Gilberto. He captained the youngsters brilliantly and scored the equaliser in the final minute of extra time. he should have been captain but that was just one of the ongoing awful decisions that began Wenger's slow decline.

  4. seepy h

    Mar 02, 2013, 14:03 #32784

    fantastic player-very underated. i watched afc at blackburn(invincible season)and he was gettin plenty ov abuse from around me -shameful...

  5. maguiresbridge gooner

    Mar 02, 2013, 12:15 #32781

    Rj,fair play you have taken the bet,can't see it happening unless there's major changes but time will tell.Regardless of the outcome i'll be available to help as official taster at the payout.

  6. CanadaGooner

    Mar 02, 2013, 2:19 #32777

    @RJ; you're on mate. I'm back home in London 4 times each season to catch a few games with some mates. Pints on me at the London Metropolitan (arsenal bar) if as you say we get to win a trophy with wenger in charger

  7. Matt W

    Mar 01, 2013, 23:13 #32775

    I absolutely agree with your view. I was literally talking about G.Silva the other day and what a massive improvement the squad would benefit from a similar type of player.

  8. Rj

    Mar 01, 2013, 21:56 #32774

    Canadagooner. Happy to take on that Bet of ten pints and make it real via the website editor somehow. I am no Wengers fan, but I hope we do win a trophy next year when aw is still in charge. Unlikely I will be in Canada to pay out, but happy to take some time to meet you when you are in London. Come on you gooners. Always enjoyed your comments and imagine you with a Greg Brady voice.

  9. Smoliver

    Mar 01, 2013, 19:44 #32770

    Gilberto Silva, for me is the most criminally underrated player of all time; kept his passing simple, brilliant tackler, dominant aerially. He is also a humantarian. Incidentally, a terrific buy on this years football manager for a bottom half premier league club!I think Gilberto was incredible; I rate him above Roy Keane.

  10. Gooner Fan

    Mar 01, 2013, 15:49 #32759

    @Chris: for someone who keeps harping on others to look at the facts, why don't you take your advice? Only one team (Man City) conceded less than us so far (also note, we are tied with Chelsea), but look at the table carefully, we conceded just one goal less than Manu and two less than the spuds and Stoke, not exactly a big gap between those teams, so we can't act smug just yet. If you think we are still going to have the second best defensive record, remember season isn't over yet, you are having a laugh. Manu has their best defender (Vidic) back, while for us, it doesn't matter if we have Kos, Mertesacker or TV in the lineup, our defensive isn't that good, despite the millions Wenger spent on defenders in the past few years. Also, how do you explain losing to teams that are in the lower divisions? The 2nd best defensive team in the EPL (if you actually believe that) should be able to keep a clean sheet against the likes of Bradford and Blackburn. I guess it's back to the drawing board with you and find another excuse for Monsieur Wenger.

  11. maguiresbridge gooner

    Mar 01, 2013, 12:09 #32748

    Canada, not many takers even though ten pints wouldn't exactly break the bank,that surely tells us something.Don't be so hard on our old mucker RockyRIP he might go for a double or quits.

  12. SUGA3

    Mar 01, 2013, 0:32 #32737

    water carrier? class personified, no one gets to be captain Brazil for being anything but... this is the difference between us and truly great clubs: not keeping the stalwarts around who can tell the new players what it means to play for the shirt, I shook my head in disbelief when Gilberto was sold!

  13. CanadaGooner

    Feb 28, 2013, 22:04 #32736

    ..... and just for the record, I had a similar wager with RockyRIP regarding the FA Cup and it would seem Mr RockyRIP decided to keep a low profile after losing that wager...

  14. CanadaGooner

    Feb 28, 2013, 21:29 #32734

    Wenger will NOT win another trophy at Arsenal. I am willing to lay on 10 pints on that. Any of the remaining Wenger supporters who care to take this wager on, let me know. It's nothing to do with whether he buys players or not; he underestimated the need to keep some old players before bringing in a full compliment of new players with no pedigree and ZERO winning mentality.

  15. Paul

    Feb 28, 2013, 19:53 #32733

    @chris Only one team has conceded more goals than us.Thats why United who have conceded more goals are 21 points ahead of us.Spurs GD is plus 15 and ours is plus 22.Which team is above us? Get real you can use as many stats as you like the only stat that counts is points gained.And United our SEVEN wins ahead of us.Anyone who thinks our defence is good is deluded.

  16. Alsace Lorraine De Totteridge

    Feb 28, 2013, 19:29 #32732

    The Second best defensive record in the league. Really. Our season is over in February, we are 20 odd points off the top with 10 weeks of the season to go, are out of the cups and are on the cusp of (shock horror) failing to qualify for premier etage Eurobore Payola next season. Keeping control of midfield and keeping the ball out of our own net has to be balanced with having the ability to score goals. The one has traditionally provided the platform for the other. You cannot make a serious challenge for anything unless you can defend properly, and we can't. Have just found out today that a good friend may well have a terminal disease. Whilst it puts the reletive importance of the pathetic ramblings and actions of a has been egomaniac into perspective, it also highlights how time is precious and that Wenger is wasting ours, as are his supine followers.

  17. John Hawley's Boots

    Feb 28, 2013, 19:10 #32731

    Ron. Spot on.

  18. Theo Jensen

    Feb 28, 2013, 18:09 #32730

    @Chris what is that based on? goals conceded? If so a team that won seven out of eight games but conceded 8 in the one loss would be on par with a team that drew 1-1 for eight games defensively no? Do you really think that in practice, not just on paper, this wide open, non-pressing team is the second best in the league?

  19. jjetplane

    Feb 28, 2013, 17:50 #32729

    As you can see from the comments here Mr Rose you seem to view the past through your very own rose tinted specs. Gilberto was an almighty favourite with most gooners and your aimless patronising that we hearing of a brazilian in our midst think only one thing is plain stupid. Better that we had Gilberto tidying up as he did than a lightweight who hides further up the field. Silly silly post.

  20. CanadaGooner

    Feb 28, 2013, 17:42 #32728

    Not just Gilberto; Wenger got rid of far too many players too soon because he thought he was so good and could make project youth work. For me, this is Wenger's biggest flaw. The awful way in which they did away with Gilberto (taking the captaincy off him in such an unceremonious manner was really bizarre). When Wnger supporters and haters go at it I just laugh; the simple fact is that Wenger could have become one of the greatest managers in football but he went a season unbeaten and it got to his head! SHAME really

  21. ppp

    Feb 28, 2013, 16:03 #32727

    Enjoyed that article. I would draw a parallel between the current Wenger haters and the Gilberto haters of yesteryear. No rational thought, only prepared to respect other teams and their players because familiarty breeds contempt. Anything that doesn't pleasure them instantly and totally gets slagged to hell. Wiltord copped all kinds of flak as well as did Song - Kevin Campbell, a true gent and an Arsenal lad was also the victim of some pathetic hate-mongers. Actually Song is a great case. Slagged off constantly until Wenger sold him - then all of a sudden the hate-preachers do a U-turn and now Song is all of a sudden the missing link and a world class player that we let go cos we aren't good enough or Wenger's French or whatever else the idiots spew at regular intervals. The message here is stick by the team through thick and thin. Teams need right backs as much as right wingers, defensive midfielders as much as creative fulcrums. If you find yourself hating Ramsey for no good reason - remember how good Alex Song became because Wenger had faith in him.

  22. Moscow Gooner

    Feb 28, 2013, 15:52 #32726

    I don't think Bould will last the Summer: Wenger's ego is immense; Pat Rice played to that, Bouldy (apparently) doesn't. It's fairly clear that Wenger has contempt for the fans (a quality he shares with most of the board), the media and most of his fellow managers. Apparently only certain players command his respect and when they drift to the dark side (see Gilberto, Arshavin, Song etc) they're sent to the Gulag or Barcelona. When he was winning trophies for fun that hardly mattered, but now??

  23. Angry & Frustrated

    Feb 28, 2013, 15:23 #32725

    Of course we miss Gilberto! But then I also miss Henry, Bergkamp, Pires, Ljungberg, Vieira, Keown, Campbell, Cole, Lauren, Lehman, Edu, Toure etc from the invincible season and before. Only Wilshere from today's squad, would just about get in that team, or possibly if lucky on the subs bench from that era!!!! In other words in isolation yes a Gilberto type player would make an undoubted difference, but he was just a small cog in a brilliant collective squad and it would take a hell of a lot more to make this team even come remotely close to that one than just a Gilberto replacement!

  24. Chris

    Feb 28, 2013, 14:59 #32724

    I'm not surprised that no one has mentioned the 'inconvenient truth' - ie that only one team in the league has a better defensive record than Arsenal this season. But of course, the facts don't matter - only the wisdom of the masses....

  25. maguiresbridge gooner

    Feb 28, 2013, 14:38 #32722

    We have enough problems with our own arsenal Simon,rather than be two concerned about another one.Gilberto can be described as an anchor alright one of these players who do a job and get on with it without fuss without complaint,and without the publicity of others,and indeed it could be argued without the credit and acknowledgement he deserved.And he isn't the only one we miss there's quite a list and they've never been replaced.When you watch arsenal now we lack a lot of things and have done for a long time.But you know what we really lack ? We really lack a manager, who will put these glaring problems right with the proper coaching, or by bringing in the proper players,or a manager who will allow it to be put right with the proper coaching,even if he's not capable himself.Until that happens it will continue to leave our challenge for silverware flawed alright as has been proved time and time again.

  26. Croker

    Feb 28, 2013, 14:36 #32721

    Hear Hear Simon - well put. Gilberto served us really well through the years in that role described by you, he led the side by example as a skipper and even weighed in with some goals when we found ourselves at the Grove short of goalscorers. Agree with the other contributors that Gilberto's exit was handled in a shoddy way.

  27. MC Dross

    Feb 28, 2013, 14:28 #32720

    Plenty of people have already rubbished this fiction but allow me to join in the kicking: Simon Rose, head cheerleader of the AKBs has yet again managed to invent a straw man argument to divert from his Master's incompetence. WHO SOLD GILBERTO? Ooops let's not mention that then eh! Gilberto was loved by Arsenal fans, anyone who regularly attended in around 2004,5 etc could have told you that. His job was appreciated and people who thought the way Wenger (yes WENGER the love of your life) treate him over the captaincy was an absolute disgrace. If anyone under-appreciated Gilberto it was the muppet in charge! He then sold him and now we are watching the overrated average Arteta ppretending to do half the job. So Simon Rose, AKB in chief yet AGAIN, manages to write a nonsensical few paragraphs totally devoid of facts, full of straw men arguments and with not a word of criticism against th CAUSE of this problem i.e. Wenger. Amazing. How warm is it up there in Wengerland Simon Rose?

  28. Graham Simons

    Feb 28, 2013, 13:25 #32718

    I for one wouldn't want another Gilberto because I don't believe replacing him has been the problem. Gilberto performed well, gave his all but let's not forget he rarely passed the ball with any purpose, preferring to pass sideways - a trait all too common in this team. Personally if Ramsey could be persuaded to sit deep and defend his back four in a disciplined manor he could operate in this role. Having said that all of our players need more discipline not just Ramsey - it's Gilberto's discipline we miss rather than the player himself and that comes from nobody giving this lot a kick up the backside.

  29. Ron

    Feb 28, 2013, 13:23 #32717

    Some good points, but you make too much of a generalisation where you say many fans hammered Gilberto. Yes, many did, but in my view he was valued by most. He alone quite often held that unbeaten run together (plus quite of a bit of luck helped too!) on so many occasions when we looked like getting tanked away from home.Great servant he was and to be honest only idiots expected an extravavgant, extrovert samba Brazilian when we bought him. Some people only rate a player by his flicks and back heels etc etc. Its a truism for me though that team organisation and team defensive work has become unfashionable in the last 5-7 years. Sacrificed on SKY tele s hunger for goals , goals , goals. We are rubbish now tactically and defending as a unit throughout the team is non existent. To be honest it wasnt good from 2001-2005 but we had players to get us out of jail every week then, We dont now. You ll no more find Gilberto types now than you will find quality cenre backs. Theyre like dinosaurs and in fairness to Wenger, he knows this. His failing is not marshalling what he has got properly. Vermaelen and Merter arent really so bad players and nor are Sagna and Gibbs. They just have no framework to work within and have the likes of Arteta thrown in as an afterthought and a sop to defensive assistance. He cant do that job. Munich laughed as his puny efforts last week. Hes a good player but hardly heavy duty! Wengers lost the plot with him. Youre right though. We ve never replaced Gilberto. Song was never any good Flamini played well for the year he needed a new contract or a lucrative move (he was a better left back than midfielder anyway in my view). He chased shadows too much and lacked the discipline to play a Gilberto role and wasnt durable or tough enough for a centre middle man. He thought he was far better than he was though, as did that ill disciplined oaf Song. Wenger never installs discipline though so its largely his own failing. Footballers (unless theyre the very top calibre ones) need telling what do and need to understand how opponents operate. It seems Wenger thinks hes above paying any respect to opponents tactics seeing as he apparently never watches them 'live' and hence his teams are supposed to play off the cuff evey week and to adapt to match conditions. Ever likely we go missing so often! Wenger, with the largely p--- poor sqaud youve got, good luck with that one.

  30. Nottingham Chris

    Feb 28, 2013, 13:13 #32715

    I loved Gilberto, brilliant anchor. Treated shabbily by Wenger over the captaincy too. He wore the shirt & I can't say that about every player. Top Man.

  31. James

    Feb 28, 2013, 13:06 #32714

    The person to blame for letting Gilberto go was the clown you keep sticking up for.At the end of the 2008 season our best season since 2005 Wenger had left go Flamini Gilberto and Diarra and replaced them with Song Diaby and Denilson.Just think about that.Thanks Wenger

  32. Theo Jensen

    Feb 28, 2013, 12:26 #32713

    Wenger said in an ESPN magazine that in his opinion the modern game doesn't require a holding midfielder, just two box-to-box midfielders instead. It's unusual because most teams play 4-2-3-1 now which is much more disciplined and solidly screens the defence. But we stick with Wenger's brand of 4-3-3 (ie far more open that even that formation is...) and that makes the team completely top heavy unless the players opt to be defensive of their own volition.

  33. G Lati, London

    Feb 28, 2013, 11:56 #32712

    Great player. And a top bloke. Massively under-rated. We've never replaced him properly since he left. Flamini / Song / Arteta types come close. But Gilberto was the master in that position. You lose that bold hold midfield position when you play 4-3-3. How can one man be attacking and holding midfielder? Its too much pressure when you face teams who will play 4-5-1. We need to go back to basics. The closest we could get to it now is to play 4-4-2 with Ramsey holding midfield and Wilshere by his side who has the ability to go forward. Stick Arteta or Rosiky on the right. Santi on the left, Giroud and Podolski up front. Walcott and Oxo on the bench providing the speed for the 70th minutes transfers. Sorted. (Oh and buy some central defenders.)

  34. Roy

    Feb 28, 2013, 11:45 #32711

    Yes, of all the additions that it's touted we need, this position is the priority and has been for some time. It doesn't take a genius to work out that it's not really Artetas game, and as you correctly point out Song was hardly the finished article there either. This situation needs to be addressed ASAP with a defensive midfielder of proven quality, no more converting players into the position and no more ignoring a problem that stands out like a sore thumb. It's even more disappointing that after conceding the most goals ever under Wenger last season, the problem wasn't remedied even though it was staring him in the face knowing that he wouldn't have RVP to bail him out at the other end this time round. 7.5 million a year ? Do me a favour. And does anyone out there fancy our chances of keeping a clean sheet at the L*ne on Sunday ? No , me neither .

  35. René Andrew

    Feb 28, 2013, 11:15 #32710

    Most of us thought he was the natural progressor to the Arsenal captaincy after Thierry Henry left. Unfortunately it was given to William Gallas and I could never understand why. Gilberto had the calmness and the leadership to inspire the youngsters. Arsene Wengers 'Logan's Run' style attitude to players reaching 30 plus robbed us of a few more honours. Gilberto was a leader we greatly needed.

  36. Pat O'Cake

    Feb 28, 2013, 11:03 #32709

    Top quality defensive midfielders are extremely rare nowadays. Who is today's equivalent of Gilberto or Essien? Look at how many clean sheets are kept in the Premier League every week - barely three or four. It is not easy to get a creative player and coach him to spot danger signs, protecting the back four and making vital interceptions. I reckon if we had Gilberto today, we would be a vastly improved outfit - Arteta or Ramsey are just not of the same mindset.

  37. chris dee

    Feb 28, 2013, 10:40 #32708

    Arsenal supporters did not treat Gilberto as garbage or s**t on the bottom of the teams shoe. That's just plain wrong and was not the case.Gilberto was critisised towards the end of his time at Arsenal because he hadn't been playing well for some time.It would happen to any player if he was performing badly over a period of time. Everyone is lavishing praise on Ryan Giggs at the moment but we forget that 3 or 4 years ago the fans at Old Trafford were giving him stick and moaning like the clappers cause he just wasn't producing. Arsenal fans are not stupid ,we all knew his role in the team and his worth to it. Don't make out as if you,amongst all the thousands of others were the only one who saw the big picture.That's just insulting.And please Simon don't give us your 'I often felt a lone voice ' in your defence of Gilberto because you were not a lone voice,the majority of fans loved and appreciated him.

  38. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Feb 28, 2013, 9:48 #32707

    I think what happened is Wenger stopped 'believing' in DMs a couple of years ago, you could see it when Song started bombing forward all the time. Arteta doesn't play as a specialised DM, he just plays a bit deeper. The result is every time the opposition boot the ball up our end of the pitch we look like we might concede, but of course what happens on the pitch doesn't matter, rather what Wenger 'believes'.

  39. ZB20H

    Feb 28, 2013, 9:26 #32706

    Gilberto was an excellent player for us and sadly under appreciated at the time. However a lot of the top clubs play without a purely screening/holding type player these days. Carrick, Barry, Xabi Alonso, Busquets, Pirlo are the deepest lying midfielders for their teams but none of them are classic defensive midfielders in the traditional sense.

  40. Ramgun

    Feb 28, 2013, 8:57 #32705

    I was unaware that things were that bad for Gilberto with our supporters. It certainly didn't go on around me in the West Upper. The author lauds himself for his bravery in standing up for Gilberto, he should try giving a negative opinion of Wenger near Wenger's barking mad, blinded by devotion followers - now that really would be brave. Denilson was a workaday reserve attacking midfielder who, whilst not being top class, would always have a shot, which was more than could be said for most of his team-mates. Wenger then wrecked him by pretending that Denilson could play like Gilberto. The author always seems pretty good at identifying terrible mistakes made with players but seems unable to get himself to say who the arrogant, stubborn, tactically feeble man is who has been responsible for all these years of defensive incompetence. As for Gilberto himself, I am delighted that he is still playing and wish him nothing but good.

  41. Fozzy's mate

    Feb 28, 2013, 8:45 #32704

    Oh Simon you just can't accept your lord and master is responsible for anything can you. At the same time he let Gilberto go he also waived goodbye to Diarra and Flamini meaning 3 or the 4 decent centre mids we had were gone. But hey we had Dennilson, Song, Eboue and Diaby! Its just one of many examples of OGL thinking he knew better than the rest of football. He is still doing it by taking a player who was excellent last year and pushing him into an alien space rather than spending some of the eurozone bail out fund. But hey aint it better to have the cash at bank!

  42. Tony Evans

    Feb 28, 2013, 8:15 #32702

    I never under-rated Gilberto; every team needs a player of that ilk to 'tidy up' in midfield, act as a 'spoiler' and put their foot in so to speak. Wenger of course appears to think otherwise now and thinks he can convert Arteta to this crucial role - just another calamitous decision amongst a whole host of others.

  43. GaryFootscrayAustralia

    Feb 28, 2013, 7:20 #32701

    When playing for my local team in my local Bedfordshire league, we had a grizzly old bugger called Dave who played behind me in central midfield, the "sitter" role in front of our centre halves. A third of the way through the season, after a 2-5 reverse away from home, Dave was dropped in favour of a younger, quicker, but much more lightweight player without positional discipline and / or experience, the reasoning being that Dave was considered too old and slow to motor up and down the park. During the next six or seven matches of the season, which coincided with the onset of winter on sluggish park and occasional semi - pro level pitches, we only posted two wins and copped a few more heavy beatings. My younger midfield partner either went missing during tough away trips, or showed a lack of positional sense that often left him stranded high up the pitch, leaving me having to drop deep and pick up two runners from the opposition midfield. Not ideal considering I was meant to be playing a forward midfield Wilshere / Rosicky type of role (but obviously nowhere near the same class). Once grizzly old Dave was reinstated, the midfield tightened up, the opposition runners were stopped due to Dave's savvy at breaking up play and re-distributing the ball intelligently, as well as some timely whacks on the opposition's most useful players..... as a result, the defence bolted the door shut, we retained possession much more often and in better areas of the pitch. The upshot of this was that we went the last three months unbeaten and finished the season with the club's first ever league title. He was our Gilberto, and we couldn't have achieved what we did without him. Needless to say I didn't ever slate Gilberto when he represented The Arsenal, I fully appreciated his importance to the team, and the base and balance he provided for the guys to do the eye -catching business in front of him. I could say the same about Lauren. To paraphrase Freddie Ljungberg's famous appearance on MOTD, "I knew I didn't have to worry about being attacked by a player on the other team because Lauren would kick the **** out of him"....

  44. Paul

    Feb 28, 2013, 6:43 #32700

    You are talking about the wrong player Gilberto was on his last legs at Arsenal the player we miss and have never replaced was Matty Flamini.A player who ran his heart out for the club.He was an enforcer who brought out the best in Cesc.When i see what we pay Diaby and Rosicky for less than 10 games each a season and we let Flamini go stinks of rank bad management again from Wenger

  45. billthered

    Feb 28, 2013, 6:39 #32699

    You were not alone in your praise for Gilberto,I used to argue with my mate at every home game about the important role of our former player.You see we were spoilt rotten with flair players and as you say him being Brazillian and a world cup winner everyone thought he was a different player than the one we got.Well if they looked at Brazil's winning team and not just the Ronaldino's they would have realised who laid the foundations for success.And dont forget when needed he could score the odd goal when we struggled, if I recall our first game at the Grove he came up with a late equaliser against Villa making sure the new stadium's opener was'nt too disappointing.

  46. Gare Kekeke

    Feb 28, 2013, 1:27 #32696

    Yes we do miss a Gilberto type player but whose fault is it that we don’t have one? And no, I don’t think Arteta is anywhere near his ability and efficiency. I just don’t understand why Wenger is so reluctant to buy a specialist holding midfielder instead of unsuccessfully converting players who aren’t good enough. Bringing one or even two won’t solve all of our problems but it’s a start. But I don’t think Wenger will sign one. Also the way we defend has to improve also but I’m not holding my breath on that either. The last defensive midfielder he signed was Lassana Diarra and that was more than five years ago. Perhaps the reason why Gilberto got so much stick (guilty as charged your honour) was because after his bright start, his form declined. Looking back, my guess is the reason for his temporary loss of form that he was overplayed after all the club football in Brazil & helping his country winning the World Cup in 2002 prior to his summer arrival that year. It was only after Chelsea had knocked us out of the European Cup in 2004 that Gilberto was restored back into the starting eleven after a brief spell on the bench due to Edu’s great form. And we became a better team with him in it. Wenger was indeed irked that Steve Bould was getting credit for the improved defensive displays at the start of the season. Ask any journalist who was at that press conference in September (for Montpellier away in the European Cup) when Bould was praised and they will tell you Wenger didn’t like it. And a few of them have stated this many a time on television & radio since. It seems as if he thinks that only him & the players should get credit when things go well but no-one else. Very sad but these days sum up the man.

  47. Guy in Jersey

    Feb 28, 2013, 0:56 #32695

    Gilberto was sheer class, both as a footballer and as a person. As a result, he's one of my favourite players of the last 40 years. I was lucky enough to meet him and it was a privilege to do so. I understood Wenger's desire to up the speed and pace of the team with the likes of Flamini back in 2007/2008, but his treatment of Gilberto left a lot to be desired - and Gilberto handled it with more dignity and class than Wenger did. He should have been appointed club captain in 2007, when Thierry left, and it was a huge mistake of Wenger's to give it to Gallas. Glberto had grace, charm, class and style - and he was a winner and a bloody good footballer too. Arsenal were lucky to have him, and let him leave far too early.

  48. GoonerRon

    Jun 27, 2012, 20:33 #23669

    @ Angry & Frustrated - they are clearly very different characters that deliver very different benefits to the respective teams they played in. Freddie is the best all round player so I'd go for him, but bearing in mind they've got an almost identical goal record over the same amount of games we should consider Freddie played in an era where our squad strength was much stronger.

  49. Angry & Frustrated

    Jun 27, 2012, 14:15 #23660

    @GoonerRon So if you had a choice between Freddie or Wally when both are or were in their pomp, who would you rather see in an Arsenal shirt? Again stats can be misleading here in my opinion, because the opposition in all cases were s**t scared of Freddie, no doubt assisted by all the other class players which surrounded him, but I would wager a bet not as many defenders today are as worried about Wally other than perhaps for his raw pace. However as mentioned previously all the opposition have to do is give him an early hefty challenge and nine times out of ten Wally goes into his shell. Any defender doing the same to Freddie would now know Freddie would be up for it for the remainder of the game, and that's the mayor difference between the two. To be fair the entire invincible squad was always up for it, and were prepared to mix it if need be, and Wally is just part of the problem as the current players are not a patch on that team which is all down to Wenger and his tippy tappy dont shoot and don't defend football of today.

  50. GoonerRon

    Jun 27, 2012, 12:07 #23648

    @ Angry & Frustrated - to be honest, Theo is worth whatever the market will pay him. If he can get £X per week more somewhere else he is bound to use that as a bargaining chip in his negotiation with us. Is his improvement worth it? Well it's an obscene amount of money whichever you look at it but what I would say is that without him we lack genuine pace in the squad, plus there aren't many wingers out there who have averaged 12 goals over the last two seasons. Your comment about Ljungberg is interesting. I absolutely adored Freddie when he was in his pomp but I do actually see some similarities with Theo. When his powerful 'out to in' runs weren't being found he didn't offer a massive amount more as he was technically inferior to his midfield / attacking team mates. Their scoring records are incredibly similar for Arsenal as it happens.

  51. Angry & Frustrated

    Jun 27, 2012, 11:12 #23647

    @GoonerRon Ok I can accept your point of view, but do you think his supposed improvement is worth an additional £20-30k per week or in other words an additional £1-1.5 million per year, which over 4 years equates to £4-6.25 million? Dont forget that's over and above his current salary of £3.1 million per year or £12.4 million for a four year contract! Personally I don't, and would rather give those sort of wages to someone you had confidence in for every game like Ljungberg from whom you knew exactly what you would get each and every time, not the isolated few games that Wally provides.

  52. GoonerRon

    Jun 27, 2012, 9:48 #23646

    @ Angry & Frustrated - Theo is never going to be a player that dominates a game for 90 minutes, his impact is largely dependent upon the service he gets. Without Cesc and Wilshere we generally have a shorter range of passing in central midfield, consequently his movement doesn't always result in him getting the ball in dangerous areas. His skills as a footballer are definitely limited compared to AOC or Wilshere but the skills he does possess (pace, good movement, instinctive finishing) add considerable value over a season. You said 'he is no different in his development approx 6 years since arriving at the club than he is today' which just isn't true. His finishing is cooler, his movement is more intelligent and his defensive awareness is immeasurably better. Allied to the improvement in goals per game it all points to him getting better. I know stats can be misleading but when it comes to goals per game I don't agree - goals are the golden currency in football and if he is scoring more regularly it is only a good thing.

  53. Angry & Frustrated

    Jun 27, 2012, 8:38 #23645

    @GoonerRon- Stats like that are extremely misleading, a bit like stats showing Arsenal dominate possesion in all the games we lose! We are all entitled to an opinion, so their is no need for you to feel sick when someone else has a different view on Wally than yours. My point is he remains lightweight and goes missing in most of the big games and can be extremely frustrating to watch because you know like you said he has the speed to cause problems every game but rarely uses it effectively. He may indeed have scored more goals than previous seasons but his overall contribution during games remains no different than when he first arrived in my humble opinion and certainly is not worth an additional £20-30k per week. That's per WEEK not per month or even per year on top of his already inflated £60k again per WEEK!!

  54. Joe S.

    Jun 27, 2012, 7:23 #23644

    Sure Gooner Ron, Pirlo is an untried quantity regarding his ability to survive a Premier League season as he is slow and can sometimes be lazy and disappear from games. But at the same time he would create space for Theo's speed and force Song to stay back and do the hard marking which he is more suited to. It's a tantilising thought.

  55. GoonerRon

    Jun 26, 2012, 20:48 #23643

    @ Ron. I'm not sure Wenger can do right no matter what. You reckon he's buying attackers to appease RVP yet for all of last season the majority of people on here were saying we had no depth up front and we were over reliant in one player. Furthermore people said we panic bought at the end of the window. So Wenger is reversing both of these yet now he is criticised for something else. We're not even back to preseason training yet so let's give the club time to continue making their moves in the transfer market. @ Angry & Frustrated - you say Theo has not developed in the 6 years he's been with us - that simply is not accurate. In his first three seasons he averaged a goal every 7.7 games. In the next three seasons he averaged a goal every 4.1 games - no development you say? Incidentally, in the last three seasons Theo's average of 4.1 games per goal is better than Aaron Lennon (1 in 10), Downing (1 in 9.6), Ashley Young (1 in 4.6), Milner (1 in 7.9) and Adam Johnson (1 in 6.5). Theo isn't perfect and whilst I think his attributes adds value to our squad I'm pleased the signing of Podolski and emergence of AOC will challenge his place in the starting XI. I am however, sick of him being bashed for not improving when the facts prove otherwise.

  56. Angry & Frustrated

    Jun 26, 2012, 16:12 #23642

    @colesyboy predictable indeed, but that's because he is such a frustrating player. As Ron has stated he is no different in his development approx 6 years since arriving at the club than he is today, and it's this lack of progress which infuriates. He only requires a hefty challenge early into a game to ensure he goes into his shell and guarantee the opposition full back no futher trouble all afternoon. When he does skin a full back his delivery is very much hit and miss and the point I was making is why should he get paid more money for no visible improvement despite now being 23 and not a boy anymore, but still plays like one. If you or I show no improvement at work we may get an inflation linked rise if we are lucky in the current climate, but Walcott by all accounts wants another £20-30k per week over and above his already over the top £60k per week. I like many don't think he warrants this rise he seeks, and that we should get rid of him and give his wages to AOC instead who shows all the attributes which Wally doesn't have or is ever likely to. To only make a match winning contribution one game in ten is simply not good enough for a club like Arsenal or even England come to that, and I say no more chances he's had so many but squandered the vast majority and I don't see this statistic changing for the rest of his career. I would love him to prove me wrong, but I doubt that will ever happen just like it wont either with Denilson, Vela, Bendtner, Squilachi, Djourou, Chamakh, Park, Fabianski, Diaby etc.

  57. kilkenny cat

    Jun 26, 2012, 16:02 #23641

    Think you have problems,try supporting Ireland. Then you would have something to moan about.

  58. Ron

    Jun 26, 2012, 16:00 #23640

    Colesyboy - Most decent attackers have our defenders 'on toast'. Take a look at the GA column, yet here is Wenger buying up players for the attack, to keep RVP content while all the obvious failings aren't seemingly being addresesd. Forwards are needed but not more important than elsewhere. AW invites criticism upon himself.

  59. colesyboy

    Jun 26, 2012, 12:23 #23639

    The slaughtering of Theo on here is so predictable....so when he changed the game against Sweden was he useless then?...did anyone pass him the ball when he came on against Italy? I admit he hasn't progressed as much as we would all like but he is a dangerous player to have especially if given the right service...he was RVP's top assisit man last season, but I guess that isn't good enough for a fair number of you? Impact player, yes, and the Ox is a better footballer than Theo, but then aagain he is going to be one of the best players produced in this country for ages so there is no comparison. Rest assured if Theo goes to another premier league team he will have our defenders on toast...pace is a vital asset, he needs now to progress and be part of a deep squad once the dead wood is sold or retired.

  60. GoonerRon

    Jun 26, 2012, 10:03 #23638

    @ Joe S - interesting point about Pirlo, although I was saying during the match that whilst his range of passing is sublime, I'm not sure he would be anywhere near as effective in the PL. The tempo, pressing high up the pitch etc would seriously hinder him. If you pressurise him and nullify his passing he doesn't offer a huge amount more in open play.

  61. Mark

    Jun 26, 2012, 7:09 #23637

    @Joe S are you really surprised Wenger is the manager who wouldnt give the great Robert Pires a 2 year contract because he was 32!!!!Dont look at the birth certificate look at the quality.Just look who many stupid contract we have handed out to garbage players since RP7 left

  62. Joe S.

    Jun 26, 2012, 0:40 #23636

    Amazing to think that Pirlo was given away free by Milan to Juventus when such quality players are so rare. This brings me to contemplate on how worringly unimaginative Arsene Wegner is in his sighnings, repeatedly using his contacts by overelying on the French well when scouting for new talent. As a rseult he misses out on players such as Pirlo or Raul who still have much to offer with their skills and experience. Wegner was lucky to tap into a golden generation in France but that source is dry at the moment and other clubs are also hovering around the same talent. I hope Giroud or M'Villa prove me wrong as they seem the pick of a very poor French crop but there is an element of laziness in Arsenal's recruitmenr policy where the end result can lead to Squillaci, Charmack and Park.

  63. Big Andy

    Jun 25, 2012, 20:10 #23635

    If I were the Ox I would be very angry that utter garbage like Ashley Young and James Milner were picked ahead of me. Why did Hodgson bring Alex and not pick him when it mattered?

  64. Canterbury Gooner

    Jun 25, 2012, 18:24 #23634

    All the players just collapsed at the same time for England last night- probably tired of chasing the ball non stop, both physically and mentally. You can't win tournaments on 40% possession every game. Also, why on earth is 442 still being used? Hodgson especially makes us play such a rigid, dreary style of play. Sure, each performance was better than the one before and he hasn't had long, but this is against weak teams and with luck on our side. We just look like West Brom to be honest. 33 year old Pirlo wouldn't have been half as good if we played 4231, using some genuine up and coming players like AOC, Sturridge etc. rather than club-reputation stars like Rooney.

  65. au revoir wenger

    Jun 25, 2012, 18:15 #23633

    Rooney is a contender for worst player of the tournament

  66. Ron

    Jun 25, 2012, 17:41 #23632

    Guys. Your comments on Walcott are so apt. Hope and pray one day to read the paper and find we ve sold the useless cretin to some mug daft enough to think he adds something to a team. No better now than when he was 16. Thats Walcott.

  67. DW Thomas

    Jun 25, 2012, 17:19 #23631

    Look at how important Pirlo was yesterday. Truly great teams have that talismanic CM who dictates the flow of the game. I am hoping Jack can be that if given the free role he needs. Cesc was that for us and when he played well and was injury free, no one could stop him. Zidane, Ozil, Xavi. These are all similar players that are world class. We lost ours and didn't replace him at Arsenal. Maybe Wenger is waiting for Jack or Ramsey to come good. That might be a few years still. One thing I noticed about Theo that is different than say Ox or someone like Ronaldo. When he gets one on one with a defender, unless there is space behind, he has no plan to beat them. No stepovers, fakes, swerves, etc. He simply stops and plays the ball back or crosses into the box. And his crosses are hit or miss. And he too wants a pay rise? Bringing him on yesterday with Carroll and then Jordan Henderson merely delayed the inevitable. Theo seemed to hardly touch the ball. He needs that creative ACM like Pirlo to give him the beautiful thru-ball to get behind the defense. Only then is he effective. We need M'Vila and everyone healthy and then I think we could be strong this season. Yet, if RVP goes, and to City at that, we are back to last season's shambles of a summer. How do you lose your captain and best player for 2 years in a row and think you can be taken seriously as a big club? Give RVP a little more than what's on offer and convince him to stay. Podolski, Giroud, and M'Vila plus a promise to strengthen in January if need be due to injuries. I'll say it until the fat lady sings, we need a player like Cesc. Will Jack be it?

  68. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jun 25, 2012, 16:40 #23630

    It didn't take Walcott long to have plenty to say my god if this guy could play as well as he talks after a game he'd be some player. Theo pet England are like arsenal they've learned absolutely nothing over the years.

  69. johnnyhawleylovinggooner

    Jun 25, 2012, 14:47 #23628

    if england want to progress in world cups etc, then the reffs need to show red cards for "tackles" on skilful players such as we have seen on several arsenal players. Instead of makeing fun of us with" they don't like it up'em",or telling us "he is not that kind of player" after yet another leg break,they should just admit that football has moved on and try to copy us and encourage flair players mixed with the bulldog spirit. The Rep of Ireland don't look half as bad after Englands display last night and lets be fair they were awfull in all three games

  70. Angry & Frustrated

    Jun 25, 2012, 14:33 #23627

    Don't worry according to Wally England will peak in Brazil in 2014!! Wally takes delusion to another level, and to think he is holding out for more money before he commits to a new contract at Arsenal. If I was Wenger I would offer him the amount extra he is asking for but deduct it from his current over inflated wages rather than add it!! On second thoughts sell this pup to anyone stupid enough to offer us a penny for him, as he typifies what's wrong at Arsenal & England where a match winning performance only comes along once in a blue moon.

  71. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jun 25, 2012, 13:07 #23626

    England will be arriving home as gallant losers after bottling penalties again.The sooner the FA and the players realise they're not as good as they think they are the better like arsenal they have a long way to go before they win anything.Hopefully it will be the end of the England careers or a couple of certain chavs and one or two others which might make the england team easier to watch.

  72. JER

    Jun 25, 2012, 12:22 #23625

    Yet again, at a major tournament, England are exposed as sadly lacking in technique - only Ireland were worse at that aspect. This will continue as long as the 'most exciting league in the world' is dominated by foreign players. There is some light though as the FA are trying to insist on children playing small sided games. Most other football nations have been doing this for years. Perhaps parents and coaches at that level can help by stopping the 'winning is everything' mentality just so they can bask in reflected glory.

  73. GaryFootscrayAustralia

    Jun 25, 2012, 10:47 #23623

    England were outplayed by a just above average Italian team containing one truly outstanding player. I've been mostly impressed by the manner in which Hodgson managed to tighten things up in the short term. What I don't understand is how a manager of his aptitude, knowledge and experience of the Italian league allowed Pirlo free reign. What we don't know is if Roy gave instructions that the players didn't have the ability or intelligence to apply to the match situation. On a related topic, can somebody please give DeRossi his IMAIE Award so he doesn't have to overdo the acting anymore?

  74. Steve

    Jun 25, 2012, 9:50 #23622

    What happened last night was nothing new.Since 1966 England have reached two semi finals.That just about sums up how could they are.But listen to Sky or read the biased English media we are told Hart Cole Gerrard and Rooney are world class.Do me a favour.Its this blindness that will always stop England.Nothing has changed since 1966.English players are scared of the ball.How a player like Walcott who has been average for Arsenal plays for England sums up the lack of quality

  75. Wombledin

    Jun 25, 2012, 6:27 #23621

    England were garbage today, utter rubbish, an embarrassment. They could hardly string 3 passes together the whole game. And granny hair Hodgson calls them heroic.

  76. Mandy Dodd

    Jun 25, 2012, 0:35 #23620

    Germany and Spain are miles ahead. England tried this evening, but guts, work ethic and last ditch defending only get you so far...most of the time. Sometimes, fate throws up a Chelsea, Wimbledon or Greece, but most of the time, you play like England did , you get nowhere. Not hodgsons fault, he did the best he could with what he had. But the fact is, England are in the stone age in football terms. Too many managers here too scared to play anything other than hoof ball. Poor development of youngsters, England need a huge change. Other teams went out due to poor attitude, divisions, we were united, just not good enough. Take Germany to win. Btw, how can a team lose eight in a row , as pens are close to a fifty fifty, that really is defying the odds, not that we deserved to go through today.

  77. Des

    Jun 24, 2012, 16:24 #23619

    German wont get the ball against Spain.Iniesta Xavi Silva and Alonso will play keep ball and Spain will beat the Germans 1 or 2 nil.Remember shot shy Greece actually scored 2 goals against the Germans.Just waiting for the Hodgson backlash when England get knocked out

  78. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jun 24, 2012, 15:04 #23618

    It would be hard to back against the germans as usual hitting form when it matters. Agree Kos did his growing reputation no harm it looks like the French found themselves in the same situation as the dutch with a couple of egos in the side maybe na$ri is letting his prem league medal go to his head.Spain have no such problem if there are any egos their not showing it and playing for the team.The result tonight is hard to call and your right Kev as far as England are concerned the performance doesn't matter its the result but i know a lot of mates putting their dough on an Italy win on pens personally i'm not to bothered what happens but we'll find out tonight.