Respite

Online Ed: Eventual victory over QPR



Respite

Stan: Good of him to show up for the first two quarters…


Stan Kroenke must have been riveted by the first half, sitting next to chairman Peter Hill-Wood in the directors’ box. So much so that he had something better to do and disappeared after the interval. He obviously cares deeply about his football club. Still, let’s give him the benefit of the doubt. He wouldn’t be the first fan to leave a Gunners’ game at half time. And Sol Campbell did it once when he was a player. Tony Adams was also in the directors’ box. I wonder if, at any point before the Denver tycoon’s departure whether they conversed, and regardless, whether Kroenke had the first clue who Adams is, in spite of there being a statue of the former captain outside the stadium and images of him dotted all over inside.

The majority owner saw a first half that was an improvement on recent games, albeit only a slight one. People were so pleased to see Jack Wilshere back they thought he had a fantastic game. From these eyes, he made a difference, adding a little more drive to the play, but rarely fired the Gunners into the kind of rhythm they need to find to get the season back on track for real. The dream midfield of Cazorla, Wilshere and Arteta will need time to form the understanding required. Remember Arteta had never lined up with Wilshere before, never mind Cazorla. The players are of sufficiently quality that it should come, although Old Trafford next weekend is undoubtedly too early. Most fans are not optimistic about that particular fixture.

QPR’s team is stuffed with good players, and it is a bit of a mystery why they are struggling. It was opined to me before the match that they are unlikely to go down given their resources. They did a fair job of making life difficult for Arsenal, but in the end, the better team won. That isn’t really saying much though. It felt like watching two disjointed sides and at times was quite bitty. One got the feeling that the likes of Santos and Ramsey were picked out of sheer bloody-mindedness by Wenger. Given the nature of the opposition, there was an argument for starting Walcott ahead of Ramsey on the Russian roulette principal that you might get a moment or two from Theo that turns the game. They have to happen once in a while by the law of averages and the player has certainly got something to prove.

There is a story that Arsene Wenger got a bit narked with Steve Bould getting all the credit for the good start to the season and has told him to take more of a back seat in training, which may explain the team’s regression in the organizational side of their play when possession is lost. It’s a story that is difficult to believe on one level, but then you hark back to the refusal to give Martin Keown any credit for the run to the Champions League final in 2006 you find yourself actually giving it some credence. Something’s going on between the pair anyway, as was alluded to by Stewart Robson in a TalkSport interview last week. I think Robson, no longer employed to deliver tactical analysis for the club, is now free to speak more openly, so it is interesting to hear his views. Reputedly he was warned about being too critical when recording his Talking Tactics spots for Arsenal TV. It looks like Adrian Clarke, far more of a Wenger loyalist, has been given the gig this season. I’ll have to see what he had to say about the Norwich game!

Arsenal continued ploughing away after the interval and a classic moment of Superhoops’ madness changed the game as Mbia kicked out at Vermaelen. Somehow, it just wouldn’t be a Rangers’ game without the obligatory red card. This could explain their position in the table. Losing a central defender seemed to see the visitors’ solidity evaporate and chances followed before the pressure eventually told. Arteta was offside for the goal, but it was so chaotic in the goalmouth it wasn’t spotted. Arsenal got their break, and then in injury time almost conspired to give the win away with the return of their lack of discipline when it comes to closing games out.

As far as next week goes, a shadow team will play at Reading and anything could happen there, but a Capital One Cup exit might not be a huge surprise. Remember that fourth place is a bigger trophy, so there’s not need to fret over that, as no-one realized that in fact we have not had a silverware drought since 2005 and have won a trophy every year since, according to the manager. What I can’t understand is why the years on the front of the upper tier stop at 2005 though. In the words of Stan Kroenke at the AGM, “I must have missed something.”

Old Trafford will be interesting to say the least. Surely, the left back situation has to be resolved, as there is no way the team can start with Andre Santos up there. My guess is that Ramsey will retain his place simply to contain Patrice Evra, but the player needs to revise his opinion of his abilities and try to forge a future as a water carrier, a Didier Deschamps. His continued attempts to imitate Glenn Hoddle and fail abysmally are beginning to turn him into a boo boy.

A win was vital yesterday and Arsenal just about squeaked through. The patient is showing basic signs of recovery, but intensive care is needed for a while yet, and a growing number can see transplant surgery as the only long term solution.

The 25th anniversary edition of The Gooner will still be on sale at the away games v Reading, Man Utd and Schalke. It can also be bought online here. There is also an e-version of the issue available to read on your ipad/tablet/iphone/android. The app is free and you can download the first few pages of each issue as a taster before deciding whether or not to purchase the whole thing


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comments

  1. ITK

    Dec 19, 2013, 21:44 #43148

    People are now suddenly realising that Ozil isn't doing enough in the big matches. Against German opposition he was poor. Liverpool, City & Utd poor. Surely a player that cost 40m should be making more of an impact in these massive games. The impact is that both JW and Santi have had to vacate their positions for Ozil which have affected their form. Ozil was a panic buy. Was never a target, he was the only player Real wanted to sell and Wengers hand was forced.

  2. Westlower

    Dec 19, 2013, 7:56 #43128

    Badarse, More like Last of the Summer Wine, or in Ron's case Whine.......

  3. Ron

    Dec 18, 2013, 22:08 #43126

    Good lord, the veterans are out in force tonight! Westie lad, stick to dogs and betting my freind. Eric and Stevie are fine but... please behave yourself!! ha.

  4. BADARSE

    Dec 18, 2013, 21:41 #43125

    Anyone for the Sound of Music? ha ha. westlower Clapton/Winwood, what a combination. Even now as relatively speaking old men they still spark. Did you know where Ron left his maracas, they've gone missing.

  5. jjetplane

    Dec 18, 2013, 21:38 #43124

    Pretty bubbles in the air/........

  6. jjetplane

    Dec 18, 2013, 19:28 #43123

    Sacrilege Westie! ha ha. Reminds me - have not heard Badge for ages! I expect after the macams did some lovely damage on Chavworld they will park the bus on monday! Love the reports of the chavs filing out on the 'job done' ticket. How can anyone leave a match early? Crosstownnnnnn ....

  7. Westlower

    Dec 18, 2013, 19:22 #43122

    jjetplane, Have you heard Voodoo Child performed by Steve Winwood & Eric Clapton. Best ever!

  8. jjetplane

    Dec 18, 2013, 18:38 #43121

    Now we need to sign a voodoo child in january and get that slight return to ahhh electric winter wonderland. Band of brothers! Bless your windy ways (!)

  9. Seven Kings Gooner

    Dec 18, 2013, 18:11 #43120

    We are building : "Stone Free" & "The Wind cries Mary" are 2 of my all time best. I envy you if you can do a decent rendition of those two classics. Huge respect!

  10. Ron

    Dec 18, 2013, 15:37 #43118

    We are building - Thats brilliant mate. Is it just me or is guitar a real ba----d for everybody to master? Ive fiddled about with it now for ages and done OK ish but doing lessons now at last. Its good isnt it!! Great feeling but hardest thing to master ive ever tried mate.

  11. BADARSE

    Dec 18, 2013, 15:26 #43117

    Ron is the musician WeAreBuilding, I am just the conductor. Tickets please!

  12. WeAreBuildingATeamToDominate

    Dec 18, 2013, 13:51 #43114

    Ron, [email protected]: if you can use a bassist, give me a shout :-) been playing Hendrix covers for some time now. Especially "Stone Free" & "Wind Cries Mary". Football wise, CFC certainly aren't all they used to be. 4-3 at Sunderland followed by 2-3 at Stoke? Most un-Maureen like. Wouldn't be surprised if 3-2 either way was the scoreline come 9.30 on Monday night.

  13. BADARSE

    Dec 18, 2013, 11:00 #43110

    It's Xmas time so keep plucking Ron. Yes Terry is an odious character, like so many in his clique. Another good reason to get a result on Monday.

  14. Ron

    Dec 18, 2013, 10:44 #43109

    BADARSE - Ha. Struggling re Guitar is my priority im afraid pal. Made a good fist of 'Hey Joe' last night though so im told. Loved Hendrix! Yes, Terry. Odious, but hes been a good un. Never very quick though was he? Recall 03 was it when we beat them at the Bridge in the FAC? Terry own goal. All over the place that night he was. Lauren ran him ragged!

  15. BADARSE

    Dec 18, 2013, 9:06 #43107

    Hi Ron. It's easy to talk a good fight but I have believed for a while that we will beat them. Meaningless of course because it is just a 'gut' feel and often goes awry. A pal I know was at the wonky Bridge last week and said although Terry is still commanding he is slowing up quite dramatically. Imagine what Titi would do to an ageing and slowing centre back when he was in his prime. Bring your tambourine with you tonight but the conductor doesn't want a repeat of last year, so no sticking a safety pin through it again. Oh and it's also being mooted that it might be apt for you to do a Riverdance piece whilst we are singing 'We three Kings', how does that grab you?

  16. Ron

    Dec 18, 2013, 8:29 #43106

    Morning BADARSE - i forecast a win v Chelsea last week, purely a hunch but ill stick with it despite witnessing last Saturdays suicide. Its only wishful thinking though made on the basis that we re due a win v them. I recall we played them xmas time about 3 years ago and won 3-0 or 3-1? That wasnt expected so you never know. Im going to Aston Villa in a week or two. Thats a venue where we ve not lost since the late 90s. Be just like Arsenal to beat Chelsea and lose to AV! PS ive a feeling that the Mourinho returns experiment at Chelsea will all end in tears. The special one s midas touch isnt quite what it was. Lets hope our flaky lot can help with his demise.

  17. BADARSE

    Dec 18, 2013, 7:43 #43105

    Morning all. Ron how is your throat, are you still on for carol singing this evening? We need you falsetto in the group so begin by gargling with some chicken masala, buddy. So Chelsea took a tumble. Wonder if their mob would have gone out in the last round. It seems the game and it's result has upset one or two around the Bridge. Let's hope on Monday evening it's one too far.

  18. Westlower

    Dec 18, 2013, 7:37 #43104

    Da do RON RON, da don't RON, RON!!

  19. MARCUS

    Dec 18, 2013, 4:37 #43102

    Great post. You could not have put it any better. It was obvious from the end of last season, arsenal need a striker and a world class one and its still evident now. We are atleast three world class players from in my view having a really good team. We need a world class defender, a world class defensive midfielder and finally a world class striker. If you go back 15 years and see the teams that have the pl they have always had atleast 3 three world class players in their starting eleven and most likely in those three positions. The Chelsea game on Monday is going to be huge for us we have to win it no ifs or buts. We have to win. We can not allow them to come to are back yard and over run us like they did in the capital one cup. We need to show fight and guts and take it to them early. Also they will come strong as they will want to bounce back from their defeat during the week. So I expect it to be a battle royal. Also I have watched are last three matches and we seem to always defend deep and allow the opposition to have the ball and sit back. I dont like that. If you notice the best teams, when they dont have the ball defend in packs and press in packs we need to revert to that style of defending. Its the way the best teams do it, why can we not do it also? Are we just not fit enough or are we just not good enough when we do not have the ball??

  20. Ron

    Dec 17, 2013, 22:18 #43101

    Chris - There are two Ron s. Theres the Ron that supports the Club by paying the price, going to games, cheering them on however poor the product on offer, the illogical Ron if you like. Then the other Ron, the one that realises that by doing so, it sustains and subsidises the Clubs mediocrity and performances bereft of character,then takes a look at why that is. The latter, takes cognizance of the way the Club is ran and managed and as such, takes a position that's often not particularly palatable to some, but often is to others. Either way, a few seem to agree with me, others dont and thats fine.

  21. Chris

    Dec 17, 2013, 21:02 #43100

    I'll risk the accusation of sycophancy that has accompanied similar scenarios before, but I have to agree with Badarse on Ron's inconsistency, almost to the point of contradiction. On more than one occasion I have concluded that 'there must be two Rons' - maybe there are?

  22. BADARSE

    Dec 17, 2013, 20:57 #43099

    Ron your take may be on the money, however it is all guesswork and your spin. My post was to point that out, and the way your post was couched. It was vitriol directed at Arsene Wenger. You often say he must be a good man, or words to that effect, then you offer a line in quite disrespectful terms. That is your prerogative of course but if a post seems unnecessarily vindictive with no evidence, or perhaps inconsistent, then it should be challenged. I usually stay outside of these exchanges because I know generally you cannot alter people's perceptions. Some if I believe to be very unfair I won't pass on. To suggest your vague view of things cannot be challenged because I can't prove my case is a religious argument. You can't prove a deity exists and I can't prove one doesn't. The crux of that argument is that someone is claiming something without proof, I offer a rebuttal. That is my statement.

  23. Ron

    Dec 17, 2013, 20:31 #43098

    BADARSE - OK. i hear you, though i would say that nothing youve said there is any more persuasive than my mere perception. Of course its perception, but one thats arisen as a result of Wenger on many occasions choosing to make the point himself that hes turned down jobs abroad. Youve no more right with all due respect, to suggest that im way off beam in making the observations that i have without any definite information to say that your own perception is correct have you? I would go further and suggest that if Wenger doesnt want to be opened up to my perception, then hes best advised to stay quiet about supposedly being much sought after. Your retort is very dismissive of my view, which is fine, but it displays that preciousness of one who sees any Wenger analysis as wrong if it doesnt quite portray him as the omnicompetent omnipresent man who you like to think he is. 9 years nearly of nothingness, coupled with his oft stated 'ive turned down many positions' etc etc makes him rather fallible to the accusation that he lacks the verve or the wit to manage under real pressure. If im wrong, im wrong but im sure its a view that a few have uttered before me.

  24. Roy

    Dec 17, 2013, 19:18 #43097

    Buying players in Jan is always tough. Any player still in the Champs Lge is unlikely to move in Jan, and anyone cup tied isn't that much use to us anyway. Also needs to be someone who can hit the ground running, so all of these conditions seriously cuts down your options. The players to keep your eye on are those with World Cup aspirations who are not getting a regular game such as Ramirez at Soton for example. Whatever, it's not easy and there are others mentioned such as Williams but why would he come to us at this stage of his career to sit on the bench ? I can also see why Michu and Long have been mooted, but with the Pod and the Ox to come back it's certainly a fine balancing act. Only the manager knows how long it will be before they are fully match fit. A conundrum indeed, but that's what OGL is paid the big bucks for.

  25. jeff wright

    Dec 17, 2013, 18:55 #43095

    I don't often agree with many of the odious one Maureen's views his one that looks about right though and the bookies agree with him . However his ones that there are a different set of rules in football management for Wenger and another for everyone else can't be disputed. Wenger has been in the comfort zone for donkeys years and anyone who thinks tha the didn't realize that this would not be the case at Real when he had those secret meetings with Perez to learn what Senor Galactico had to offer him is only deluding themselves. Wenger would never have got the sort of control at Madrid that he had under the Fiszman regime or Kroneke's one either. I think he's got a bit less power with Stan in charge he doesent say a lot though but has a reputation for being ruthless with employees who don't agree with his decisions. Wenger still gets cut far more slack than managers at other clubs do though where even winning the Champions League doesn't guarantee even a full season next time - if they don't shape up and look like they are resting on their laurels. If a new manager took over at AFC he might be justified in asking for a lengthy period to try and win trophies after all the previous one has gone 8 years with out winning any. Somehow though I suspect that he wouldn't get it.

  26. jjetplane

    Dec 17, 2013, 18:29 #43094

    Great posts as always Ron and having only just seen saturday's highlights, the boys against men is only to clear. You would almost imagine Toure saying 'sorry kid for nicking your ball' to 'little Jack twitter'. Nasri also looked like a giant and seems to be be very happy amongst equals. He has turned out be the real star of the recent massive departures. I would like to compare Suarez having a bunch of definite spuds screaming god knows what s... at him and carrying on and looking highly likeable for all of it, with Jack's quite sorry petulance which will now get him a ban. With Per giving pretty boy a right earful it really did not look good and tactically should probably never have happened. See the old duvet was donned as bad turned to worse. Sorry, but it really is oh so perdictable. Penny for your real thoughts Mr Henry?

  27. Green Hut

    Dec 17, 2013, 18:25 #43093

    Chris- I'm sure you realise that literalism isn't the problem here so much as Wenger's chronic lack of self-awareness and disregard for the fans, although I can only think both soul-destroying quotes provided the inspiration for your impressive points-per-spend analysis.

  28. Westlower

    Dec 17, 2013, 18:13 #43092

    Early betting for the Arsenal v Chelsea game. AFC 11/8; Chelsea 2/1; Draw 12/5. Next Spurs Manager; Sherwood 11/4; Laudrup 6/1; Hoddle 8/1; Capello 10/1.

  29. Chris

    Dec 17, 2013, 17:51 #43091

    Green Hut - completely agree that United fans didn't revolt because of the context of that defeat. But nonetheless, it was worse than the defeat sustained by Arsenal on Saturday and happened in a season in which United would have won the title but for QPR's disgraceful last minute capitulation and in which they won it the following season. That's why I'm not getting overly worked up by Saturday's result, within the context of a relatively successful 2013 over all and season so far in the PL for Arsenal. As for 4th being a trophy - if anyone is really, honestly insulted by that their literalism must border on the autistic. The comment about 2nd for 20 years was unfortunate because fans love to dream but even then, its not hard to see what he was saying if you really want to...

  30. BADARSE

    Dec 17, 2013, 17:44 #43090

    Ron I have to take issue with your last post my friend. Again you speak from a platform in forcible fashion but your synopsis is all supposition. To lay claim that Arsene Wenger didn't have the courage or ambition to take a job at Real Madrid or even Tescos is unsubstantiated; it was just a decision he made. If he claimed that the expectations upon himself would be morally or philosophically wrong who are you to deny it's truthfulness? Many moons ago I was accused of not displaying enough ambition, I still trot that line out on occasions and people who know me see it as a fundamentally flawed accusation. I have more ambition, even today, than most I meet, it may be a little different to some accepted ideas but it clearly is a part of me, and it is clearly ambition. Perhaps Arsene's ambition differs from your concept of it? You then accuse him of being disingenuous, hypocritical, contradictory, and churlish. I'm sorry chum, only your view of things, and at best based on speculation and perception. I think you have read too many posts. It comes across as another rant at Arsene Wenger.

  31. Chris

    Dec 17, 2013, 17:32 #43089

    I'm talking in theory, Ron, about the perfect manager being able to win the PL at any club. Obviously real, imperfect managers can't usually bridge the gap that resource imbalances give the big spenders. On reflection I'll concede my sentence "The least imperfect manager's team usually wins it" was over-stating it (i.e. it was bollocks) but my point is still that the number of clubs that could win the PL if their managers made 'perfect' decisions (along the lines of consistently buying Michu-eque bargains, being tactical geniuses and motivational masters)is much greater than the number of clubs that do win it suggest.

  32. Green Hut

    Dec 17, 2013, 17:30 #43088

    Chris- The Utd fans who watched the 6-1 defeat to City a couple of months into that season had seen their team win the league 4 times in the previous 5 years, consequently I think they were always unlikely to call for Ferguson's head. As I said, very few fans expect Arsenal to achieve anywhere near that in these modern financial times but if those same Utd fans had seen their team not win even a domestic cup over that period and longer, whilst listening to their manager insult their intelligence by describing 4th place as a trophy and telling them he would be happy with 2nd place for the next 20 years, they may begin to feel differently.

  33. Chris

    Dec 17, 2013, 17:18 #43087

    Ron - Er no Ron, because the point I'm making is that no coach is anywhere near perfect. Re the end of my previous comment (submitted prematurely) - the tactical zeitgeist of the PL has shifted over the past handful of seasons. There is less emphasis on defensive solidity and more on attacking threat. There's more than one way to skin a cat and you can't maximise goal threat and defensive solidity simultaneously.

  34. Ron

    Dec 17, 2013, 16:25 #43086

    Chris - if that was true Clubs would all be spending mega bucks on the best coaches. My Brother's a season ticket WBA fan. Ill let him know that its only the coach choice there down the years thats the only factor that stopped Albion winning a few titles and not the lack of cash, the little stadium and largely journeymen players they subsist on. The Chairman there needs letting in on your theory.In fact, if Chelsea and City knew the theory, why buy great players, when landing the best coach would do?

  35. Chris

    Dec 17, 2013, 16:13 #43085

    Ron - Would United be stronger this term with Fergie rather than Moyes? It's hard to believe otherwise. Re 17 versus 19 bosses - the point is that almost any club could and win the league if their manager was perfect, in terms of recruitment and training of the squad and team & tactics selection. The least imperfect manager's team usually wins it. The point about PL defences is only valid up to a point.

  36. Ron

    Dec 17, 2013, 16:01 #43084

    Im not sure 19 other bosses are 'prevented' from winning the title. Its more that 17 of them arent likely to or never can in the first place. Many Utd fans are of the view that Moyes is blameless andf that their decline was happening anyway and would have accelerated even under Ferguson. My view is that Ferguson knew it too. The RVP factor alone masked the shabbiness of that team last season.I was at connference at OT last week and the day soon morphed into a footie debate day, with many Utd fans expressing that view. The media are ramping up the Moyes factor. The PL is poor due mainly to its shocking defending as i see it. Even Citys defence is iffy. Theres not a decent defence in the whole league. Much of the defending is borderline laughable. Was our CL group really the group of death as it turned out? It was a 3 team group, ill give it that.

  37. Chris

    Dec 17, 2013, 15:43 #43083

    Green Hut - If taking a broader perspective equates with 'clutching at straws' then I am guilty. As for an acceptance culture - if Man U fans had revolted after they lost 6-0 to City, said Fergie was past it and Moyes had taken over, we'd probably still have RVP and United wouldn't have won the title last season. Has Wenger made mistakes that have prevented us from winning the league over the last few years? Yes. But the same can be said for 19 PL managers every year. I'm far from convinced the the PL really is as weak as lot of folks on here seem to be suggesting. If we have any external measure of this, the UEFA coefficient is as good as any and at the moment it shows we are on target to be the top ranked nation in Europe this season. The fact that teams such as Man U are struggling in the PL are doing well in Europe, the success of Chelsea and the progress of Arsenal from the 'group of death' all back this up. So the idea that there is a golden opportunity this year is debatable - Ferguson's departure has clearly helped but Pellegrini is a big upgrade on the mad Italian and their squad has been upgraded, whilst Mourinho and the Chelsea squad are hardly weak opponents. Yet still we are top of the league.

  38. Ron

    Dec 17, 2013, 15:21 #43082

    MG - Your post 45973 states in a nutshell why Wengers been at Arsenal all of these years. Its only part way his commitment and expressed love for the Club. Its well known hes was hawked by Madrid and few others 8-10 years back. Im of the view that the type of pressure to win with such Clubs and demand to aquire the bet players isnt something he could cope with. Im not of the view either that handling egotistical players who would make demands of him is a facet of those jobs that he could handle. He's dressed it up as being philosophically and morally 'wrong' to work at such Clubs and to do things the way they do them, but the real root of it is that he hadnt the nads or the ambition to give it a go. Nothing wrong with sticking with what you know, but casting oneself as being morally above something to justify it is disingenuous and reeks a bit. Wengers been full of contradictions and hypocricies for years. Its one of the reasons ther press have hounded him so much. They long ago learned to hang him by his own words and when they couldnt do that they throw him a line knowing theyll often get a churlish (or often in fact childish) reaction. Wengers clever, but not near so clever as he likes people to think he is. Arsenal arent a Club that will ever challenge the euro elites in a way that Chelsea and Man City are able to do, but Wengers canniest deed to preserve himself has been to convince his Board and much of the fan base that those dastardly Clubs are evil personified, hence his way is the true and honest way. Its isnt and those Clubs arent, they just do things the way theyve chosen. Detest him as we might, Mourinhos had Wengers number for years and not just with on the pitch issues.

  39. jjetplane

    Dec 17, 2013, 14:56 #43081

    Ha ha do remember a crazy hippy concert at White City with Edgar Winter Band bringing the place down circa early 70s. After winning that dosh at WC went to the Countdown, Columbos and finished at Whiskey a go gos 6am sunday. What days. Happy whatevers everyone and it makes me laugh to remember I fully walked the complete Westway on xmas morning circa 75 having fallen for a lovely irish girl. Few hrs later with me pop in the Blackstock and him thinking he was showing me the ropes. Now back to this Wenger bloke ..... Holloway rd, Hercules ......

  40. Westlower

    Dec 17, 2013, 14:41 #43080

    JJetplane, Many happy memories of Harringay & White City. I was a frequent visitor to both in the late 60's onwards. Especially liked the Pall Mall competition at Harringay. Dog racing became an important part of my education; University's simply don't measure up for preparing you for what life is about to throw at you. Saturday's consisted of Highbury on a Saturday afternoon followed by White City dogs in the evening. Harringay used to race on Mondays & Fridays but sadly no more. The UK of today is a much sanitized nation compared to times back then. Media brainwashing is today's norm, thankfully some of us can still think for ourselves!

  41. maguiresbridge gooner

    Dec 17, 2013, 14:27 #43078

    Ron, Arsenal would indeed have a hard choice to make about joining an elite euro league, and if OGL was still with us and still doing things his way, i'd suspect he'd be against it because he'd know he'd have to do things differently ie spend, buy and have proper world class players, have proper tactics, etc, etc, to compete and have any chance of winning anything, there would be a hell of a lot more pressure on him to do so than there is now and indeed not be left behind as we wouldn't just be up against the elite of the prem league, would he want that? would he be capable? maybe that's why he could/would be against it.

  42. BADARSE

    Dec 17, 2013, 14:13 #43077

    Sorry to make you so melancholy maguiresbridge, especially at your age! The only solution, and only a consolation on most occasions, is to just say no. I react against conformity, many mindless forms of legislation and try to constantly swim against the tide. It's a bit like recycling, it doesn't really help much at all; but I recycle for my own peace of mind, not because a bureaucrat tells me to. Those same bureaucrats didn't give a fig when I was banging the drum in protest forty odd years ago as the planet was raped. They still don't give a fig, they just want the green vote. Try to keep your little family safe, and enjoy at a different level to what is expected of you. Kick over the traces, reverse a trend, start a new one, how about celebrating Xmas a week before everyone else? Confuse the watching world by not looking for happiness-it will come looking for you. Ouch, my head hurts!

  43. 71guns

    Dec 17, 2013, 14:00 #43076

    Lets keep things in perspective chaps, yes we were well beaten on Saturday but the reality is City have just got too many good players - if they sort out their away form they win the league. What we must focus on is how much we have improved this season and if we carry on beating the 'rest' (which we have struggled to do in recent years)and take points from the big 4 home games we'll be in with a shout. If we win on Monday last week will be swept under the carpet...

  44. maguiresbridge gooner

    Dec 17, 2013, 13:45 #43075

    BADARSE 45960, i couldn't agree more i remember the time you wouldn't see a place open over Xmas, everywhere just shut down you wouldn't have a garage,shop,pub,etc,open for a week or more i remember many years ago i couldn't go and see a girlfriend for a week because i forgot to get petrol. If you did venture out you might not see a car on the road. Now they never close you will have pubs shops clubs supermarkets open even on Xmax day and full, with wives phoning the other half to the pub to come home the Xmas dinners ready. As a traditionalist i would love to see a return to those days again of staying in the house for days with the family or visiting others with no noise of traffic (i don't know about the pantomimes though) but as we all know sadly those days are gone forever.

  45. jjetplane

    Dec 17, 2013, 13:44 #43074

    Swings and roundabouts, corporate malfunctions and all the rest have Utd scraping for top 6, probably Citeh or Chelski taking the league, and then Liverpool, Arsenal (possible improvement) fighting for 3rd while Everton, Spuds, Newcastle, Utd go for 4th. Hard to see much outside of this and I am quite enjoying it via the radio and lap top. The team I watch play ummm 9 leagues below the above and I am more than satisfied with the level of football played and it fully takes the rub off being almost ashamed at the lack of pitch power in Arsenal FC since Viera tucked that penalty away against the mancs. Totally with those who were not remotely suprised by last saturday's thrashing (its a thrashing when you concede 6) and cannot help remembering going to the Riverside many moons ago and seeing Kanu and Dixon having the time of their lives. We scored 6 that day and the look on Citeh faces was much the same. Also have just 2 memories re betting when as a young upstart went to White City and won a ton and a couple of years later waking up stoned at Haringay about 4 on a sunday morning. I can only imagine you Westie in amazement. Anyway - here's to Finsbury Joe - I enjoy your noirish surrealism .... ha ha

  46. Green Hut

    Dec 17, 2013, 13:04 #43073

    Chris- If only the Premier League decided league positions on goal ratio instead of goal difference, eh?!! Really, you do clutch at straws sometimes! But the point is that you said that '6-3 isn't that bad a result'. And it is, it absolutely is. Your comment is sadly symptomatic of the acceptance culture amongst the Arsenal fanbase of 2013, and while no malcontent expects us to seriously challenge for the title to the death every single year considering the greater money at City/Chelsea/Utd, some us do expect our extremely well paid manager to be able to utilise the considerable resources at his disposal into occasionally capitalising on opportunities that arise in league and cup. Wenger has failed this test every single time. As Arsenal fans over the last few years we're all losers, Chris. Some of us accept it as inevitable, some of us don't.

  47. Westlower

    Dec 17, 2013, 12:57 #43072

    Jeff Wenger, You completely failed to acknowledge that AFC had their pivotal fixtures of last week condensed by TV commitments. Three top class games, with two away from home is too much for any side to contend with, however much money the manager earns. Mourinho is already moaning that Chelsea have an extra game to play before they meet AFC next week. Ironic considering that Chelsea have a full week to recover,from their trip to Sunderland. It's too simplistic to always blame AW's team selection, as you and I are not privy who's fit and available. Playing 3 games in 7 days generally means not being able to play your best eleven when you need them most. Given the frequency & intensity of crucial games players form ebbs & flows resulting in team rotation. Thankfully we are able to prepare thoroughly for Chelsea, albeit we may be without Kos & JW. The team that played against Man City had never played together before & it only lasted 41 minutes due to Kos being injured. Gooners throwing their toys out of their prams every time a game goes against us is not helpful, support is more useful than constant criticism.

  48. maguiresbridge gooner

    Dec 17, 2013, 12:52 #43071

    DW Thomas, good shout, yes he has had all the chances in the world (too many) there can be no more excuses silverware must be won this season, it's shyte or bust for OGL, and i think even he knows it and so do his fans, although some would/will be quite happy for him to carry on rebuilding to kingdom come. I would hate to have him building/rebuilding my house because i'd be a long time homeless.

  49. Tony Evans

    Dec 17, 2013, 12:38 #43070

    Hi Ron and Badarse - interesting points of view as always fellers. As I said previously, Wenger is a source of complete confusion for me. A talented manger? Well he must be on many levels, just ask Liverpool, Everton, Spurs and any other team with dreams of a top four finish. A tactically astute manager that always makes sure the squad is sound, with the right mix of players? No he isn't and you only have to look at the current team to prove that. One half decent striker, short in central defence and between the sticks, and in the one area where we have numbers (midfield obviously) most are carbon copies of one another - lightweight and easily brushed off of the ball. Therein lies the utter confusion with Wenger - obviously talented in many ways, but frustratingly useless when it comes to putting together the finished article, or varying his tactics to suit the opposition.

  50. Bard

    Dec 17, 2013, 11:49 #43069

    Westlower:.the answer to your question ,what to do with Ox, Gnarbry, Rosicky and Podolski is precisely nothing . The Ox and Podolski won't be factors till next season because of fitness issues. The other two are midfielders and we have a shedload of the same. We need a striker and a hardtackling midfielder; that just might be enough to put us right in the mix come May. The argument about the strength of the squad is now redudant. It's too thin Ian's post makes the point well. To my mind we will not have a better chance of winning The pl. The moneyed clubs will outspend us next season. Wenger finds himself in the unusual position (by chance in my opinion) of leading the pack. He needs to seize the moment.

  51. BADARSE

    Dec 17, 2013, 11:27 #43068

    Ha ha Chris, that was wicked. Of course no one ever said life would or should be easy, we are only here by the most magnificent of flukes so do what I do next time, have a snooze. Did you know Cinderella's glass slipper was never glass? It was a mistranslation of the French word for squirrel fur. Is nothing sacred?

  52. jeff wenger

    Dec 17, 2013, 11:23 #43067

    I agree that there is an elite cartel of clubs in the Prem now days at one time there was just one- United - until we joined the party in the late 90's . Nowadays there are 5 clubs with more resources than the remainder of the league, City ,Chelsea,United,Arsenal,Liverpool. In that order financially. Tottenham are outside these cartel along with Everton ,Newcattle these are by definition Europa League rather than Chamion League ones. For one of them to finish in the top 4 requires a real top 4 side to under-perform as Chelsea did a couple of seasons back when they were handicapped by having a certain non-special one Portugeezer in charge for half a season. They did manage though despite the managerial musical-chairs to win the CL . It's not written in stone that the finishing order in the Prem will automatically be in wage-bill order - but the winner of it always comes from one of the top clubs with the greater resources and that will be the case again this season. United had the third highest wage bill last season around 20m more than our one ,however they finished 16 points ahead of us but crucially also ahead of the two big-hitters City and Chelsea. Managerial expertise was the main reason along with a helping hand from our bloke by selling RVP TO Ferguson . Wenger also duly provided a guard of honour fore RVP and co when they turned up at the Emirates with the Prem done and dusted with games to spare .RVP then set about helping to make sure that we missed out on third place in the league. This directed us into the group of death and the subsequent unwanted meeting with BM while United have a much easier tie by comparison. Sometimes in football you make your own luck - good or bad. We have to make the best of what the situation is in football these days - and it's not really a new thing that only a few clubs can win the league. It's always been mainly that way. We dominated football way back in the 1930s during the Chapman era - Liverpool in the 70s and 80s - United in the 90s - then for awhile it was us and United always first or second in the league until Chelsea and then City joined in the fun-fest. I don't go with the theory that Wenger has been pulling up trees for years competing with bigger clubs - in the head to heads with them in the league and cup comps they can only field the same amount of players that he can . So it actually comes down to Wenger's squad building and coaching/tactics. In my my view,backed up by results ,he has come up short on all three of these fronts. Everton do not have more resources than us .Wenger's team selections and tactics were the reason why we have 2 points less than we do have in the league. Again midweek away to Napoli there were bad calls from Wenger in team selections/tactics - and a complete shambles at City from him . If Wenger gets the credit for the good results then he must take it for the bad ones as well. What's made it boring for us is Wenger himself - he's been too long in the job and become stale and predictable - he reminds me of Thatcher after she had been in power too long and became a bit potty and tetchy - tbf he's not by any means a disaster though - because he provides a top 4 finish each season - albeit that is the least on his 7m a year wages that Stan would expect. Of course there is no guarantee that a new man would do any better - then again he just might .

  53. Chris

    Dec 17, 2013, 11:06 #43066

    Badarse - 'Wandering off to pantos' should itself come with a health warning. I honored a long-standing commitment to take my daughter to Cinderella in Stevenage on Saturday lunchtime, with her grandparents. Obviously I couldn't resist checking the Arsenal score periodically on my phone, meaning I incurred the wrath of her mum, on top of the pain of the score, and then 'had' to sit through the recording knowing the outcome already...

  54. BADARSE

    Dec 17, 2013, 10:53 #43065

    Morning Ron, yes it is quite sad but as I keep hammering the point, hardly surprising as any given thing in this case top football, reflects the abject failings in society. We put up Xmas decorations weeks before Xmas and kill the event for not just the young, but for all of us. Then we try to compensate as we are told 'we are worth it', by buying too many gifts for kids to play with. The adults try to cram too much food and drink into themselves in such a short space of time in the misguided belief that they are having a good time. 50 years ago my Dad talked of a likely golden age that I might enjoy, certainly my children would see it. We still await the dawning. We don't have enough work to go around, technology has seen to that, yet people are still grafting their way towards the grave. We should be able to relax and take a fortnight off for Xmas. To play with the kids and their new games. To wander off to Pantos as a family. To have a relaxing day at home chilling and watching TV if it's your style, and recharging the batteries to go crazy again the next day. People need time to be people. If you cut me my blood flows as a diluted form of alphabetti spaghetti, reading Arsenal, but there is more! Sadly the big multinationals see a day of non-production as a lost day, they fear that their competitors will steal a march on them, and they will. So, as governments take their instructions from these businesses we have a short Xmas break and the Proles have to run on the spot due to the guilt surrounding them in wanting 'not to work'. All very morose now Ron so can we have a nice round of Xmas songs? How about 'Do they know it's Xmas' but with 'Do they know we're Arsenal' as the lyrics-it works you know! Get those castanets out fella, or is it the French horn today?

  55. Chris

    Dec 17, 2013, 10:47 #43064

    Green Hut - It depends on how you look at it. I'd say that 6-3 is a clearly better result than 4-1. It was a high scoring match (due to the open tactics employed by both teams)and Man City out-scored us by a ratio of 2 to 1. Whereas they out-scored Man Utd by a ratio of 4 to 1. Re your subsequent comment - I'm not 'comfortable' when Arsenal lose any game but neither am I arrogant enough to suggest that anyone who doesn't want the manager removed because of a perceivedly unwarranted trophy drought is a loser.

  56. Westlower

    Dec 17, 2013, 10:47 #43063

    Informative graph in yesterdays Racing Post that showed the clubs with the highest wages bill gather the most points over time. At present Man City, Man U & Chelsea are the biggest payers. Realistically as things stand 4th or 5th is our natural finishing position. Anything better suggests we are overachieving relative to our finances. For all that, I still believe we'll have a big say in the PL title race. For those who want us to bring in new blood in Jan, what do you propose we do with Ox, Gnabry, Rosicky & Podolski? Unless we can buy top notch players what's the point of settling for less? Change for change sake doesn't work, as Spurs have found out.

  57. anti-wenger

    Dec 17, 2013, 10:35 #43062

    We only lost a game we were expected to loose anyway, so chin up people, it's not the end of the world. ManC, Chelsea,Manu and Liverpool would all rather be in our situation. how you guys now assume they're all better than us simply based on one or two results is absurd, considering 16 games have already been played and the team you're critizing is still 2 points clear at the top. Let's support the team till the end, we're part of the problem by putting our own team under pressure whenever they have a bad result. were u guys expecting another invicibles season? give the guys a break please.

  58. Ron

    Dec 17, 2013, 10:16 #43061

    Hi mate. Reality is that the cash laden clubs are going to take all and share things amongst each other. Arsenal are just top 4 as you say. We all moan and demand more and get frustrated but the truth is, that its a case of accepting football for what it is or taking yourself out of it, to a geater or lesser extent.The latter has done it for me. I do about 6-7 games per year now and most of them are away from the Grove. Good days out, the results are not that important really. Football has eaten itself away as its become immersed in its own sea of greed and the quality of it is pretty ordinary in truth. A great many think like you. The predictability of it at the top end is pretty tedious, but for me, its OK now and again. I could never go back to being a 'regular'. Cdt afford it anyway! Ive a few mates who follow mid table and bottom end Clubs plus a champoionship club. The telling thing about football when i speak at any length to them about football is that they dont actually care about their results v the so called elite Clubs. Theyre 'written off' games and their enjoyment is v teams of the same level. This attitude is the one that will see the elite clubs break away and form their own euro leagues etc. Clubs like Arsenal and Liverpool will have hard choices to make when that happens wont they? Do they or dont they? Are they elite or dont they want to be? Once Clubs like them opt to go that way, they could be consigning themselves to never winning anything ever again, but they will become even richer for it. That s the 'game' today. Football as you and me know it died years ago.

  59. BADARSE

    Dec 17, 2013, 10:13 #43060

    don froth, as I mentioned Dzeko the other day I need to respond and perhaps qualify. I offered him as a personal choice of mine in a discussion I usually avoid. My view is we shall purchase no player beyond possibly a loan deal. I was allowing the moment to take me and mentioned a name as a preference, no more. I actually align myself with you. People talk of crazy figures which leave me speechless, we haven't got that kind of cash, and had we no doubt would spend it in a more rational manner. However, as anything is possible, and I am allowed to dream, I watch in a relaxed, resigned, but hopeful way of what January holds in store.

  60. BADARSE

    Dec 17, 2013, 9:37 #43059

    Tony Evans it is anormal and natural feeling chum, confusion reigns. I don't just see it as AFC's unique situation. I recognise it everywhere. Sometimes I wish I didn't because it gives me no peace. Knowledge/awareness opens the door to reality, but often beyond that very door it's a view of such unpleasantness and ugliness there is an inclination to try to shut the door and turn away. Once opened it can never be shut, it's a bit like a child discovering that there is no Father Xmas. It cannot be undone. So how is it affecting us? Well the big companies/governments know they have to sell to stay afloat. The financial system we operate with is under extreme stress and will continue to fail. Then the urgency to sell more becomes frenetic, it's a little like the Titanic going down and ordinary people on board are pretty powerless. It breeds a crazy society and despite people claiming to be astute and up to speed on most matters we all slip up and in doing so, slip down. We expect, we demand, we rail at the failures and get angry. It's an oft repeated pattern of human behaviour. We are a wealthy club in a division of some with extreme wealth, and most without much at all. We are where we are basically because the performances are inextricably linked to money. People arguing on here that we accrue this much lucre and we therefore should be fourth always, and others using slightly different sets of figures claim we could finish higher are splitting hairs. We should certainly be there or thereabouts but both parties would agree we are less able, have less resources than those big hitters who regularly win. Then the argument descends into speculation and conjecture, does the manager do a good job, would another do better. The arguments could be dismissed and the question posed, go or stay. Despite admiring the well put arguments for and against I ignore. I already see the bottom line coming. As I want the manager to stay it's a closed case for me. During the trophyless period the rich clubs have consistently won, we have consistentlt knocked on the door, and the rest have consistently failed. That is if those terms are employed. I see it as a natural order. I want to win it's in me and our species, it's why we are still around screwing up the planet. People need to take their feet off the pedals and recognise this as reality. Here endeth the lesson. Sorry to appear to lecture again N4.

  61. don froth

    Dec 17, 2013, 9:23 #43058

    Dzeko..... Michu...... do me a favour, why do you people think we have this kind of money still to spend?Suarez for 60?its ridiculous!

  62. Tony Evans

    Dec 17, 2013, 9:08 #43057

    The past 7 or 8 seasons have been bizarre in the extreme for me as an Arsenal supporter. On the one hand we have a manager with a record other clubs outside of the top four (like Spurs) would be more than happy with, but on the other hand that same manager would not have kept his job with an elite club. All this has left supporters like me floundering in confusion - should we be happy with what we have got, or should we be demanding more? Are we just a top four club, or should we be aspiring to be one of the elite? Something has to happen to break this monotonous cycle of just doing enough, because let's face it - it's boring! I wasn't even that upset by the result on Saturday because I was half expecting it. How many of us on this site really believe we will win the title? How many of us really believe we will get past Bayern? It has been (and still is) great to be top of the League, and also in to the last 16 of the CL, but I want my club to be in these positions with genuine hope, which under Wenger, I fear, is never going to happen.

  63. BADARSE

    Dec 17, 2013, 8:16 #43055

    Black Hei your post was simple and succinct, with nothing to add. My choice would be Dzeko but would be more than happy with Michu. Thing is the top, top, top player you allude is scarcity itself. Aguero takes to the pitch and instinctively I know he is different, so too Suarez of course. These players are as scarce as, um, a Spud title challenge.

  64. Black Hei

    Dec 17, 2013, 5:00 #43053

    I know we would like to buy somebody, but I don't see how Shane Long is going to be "competition", "backup" as opposed to Bendter. Michu on the other hand would be golden, IMO. Yeah he is not Top, top, tip top quality cake, but he is good, kind of like Demba Ba. He isn't going to be a lethal striker like Augero, but Michu fits very well into the team, and is quite different to Giroud; he is more subtle.

  65. DW Thomas

    Dec 17, 2013, 2:55 #43052

    Still feeling like those two points dropped with Everton are/were points we needed. Wenger must win something this year or surely his time is up. You can't always say you're rebuilding and be taken seriously. Ozil et al need to step up vs Chelsea. No more hiding or excuses. And whether we get reinforcements or not, no more chances Arsene. And for goodness sake, enough of the same old tired excuses. We could have scored more? Yeah and if my aunt had balls...

  66. stevo433

    Dec 17, 2013, 0:35 #43051

    When I heard this morning that Spurs had sacked their manager it got me thinking. You see I turned 60 this year, have followed Arsenal since 1967, although I packed up going in 2008, but wondered if I will ever hear the magical words in my lifetime " This morning Arsenal Football Club parted company with their manager Arsene Wenger " . I live in hope.

  67. Ikenna Christian

    Dec 16, 2013, 21:28 #43049

    wenger doesn't like addressing his problems fully, what's the point bringing in a playmaker without a striker? Ozil 's stunning ability to create chances is matched by Giroud 's ability to miss them. I am not a prophet of doom, but I have my doubts that we will win silverware this season.

  68. CanadaGooner

    Dec 16, 2013, 21:28 #43048

    only an absolute IDIOT would have hired AVB right after the Chelsea debacle. I suppose Daniel Levy thought he was smarter than Abrahmovich, who has masterminded his team's CL win, Europa win, 3 premier leagues, several FA Cup and other trophies. You go and hire a 36 year old boy who was lucky to do well in the crappy Portuguese league (using the team Mourinho left there). The minute he started saying things against Mourinho (biting the hand that fed him) just because he won a handful of matches, I knew his time will come this season. Hopeless boy, stupid club (spurs); what a waste of money

  69. maguiresbridge gooner

    Dec 16, 2013, 20:55 #43047

    Green Hut, spot on mate like i said on another post the humiliation, beating, defeat on Saturday like the others, and the hike in prices will be taken with a whimper as usual, and there's a lot of names to describe those type and happy losers is right up there with the best.

  70. lee afc

    Dec 16, 2013, 20:29 #43046

    Nice post Ian......Another stat for every one...even after Saturdays result, we have taken more points away from home this season than anyone else in the league...By the way, we are top of the league too and that is not an accident...keep the faith gooners.

  71. Green Hut

    Dec 16, 2013, 20:17 #43045

    Happy Loser- Of course I'm not a winner, I support a football club managed by Arsene Wenger, the only man in a position capable of improving The Arsenal's trophy winning fortunes. You would have thought on a £7m salary himself with a humongous wage bill for his playing staff and a transfer kitty double that of the amount he actually spends that he might have managed it by now, but sadly no. And as long as fans are comfortable with 6-3 defeats, why should anything change?

  72. Ian Henry

    Dec 16, 2013, 20:06 #43044

    Those of you who think I am happy in any shape or form with a 6-3 defeat, I am not. The three positives I took were really me trying to look at it from a different angle for once. I have written more critical pieces after matches like this than I care to remember and couldn’t be bothered to write another critical dissection – after all what could I add to what had already been written and said by everyone else. For the record, I didn’t expect much, if anything, from the match on Saturday, so I was not especially surprised. This team has the potential to implode and defend crassly at any time; it has done so in the past, and it will almost certainly do so again, especially while Wenger is the manager. We need reinforcements in January, we all know that; we can debate all we like about whether player X or Y is the answer up front or whether NB52 is as good as anything else out there. I shouldn’t have put names in my piece, which is why I have said x or y here. I simply wanted to point out that we need bodies as the squad is not big enough – big enough in both senses by the way, not enough players and too many small players, but that’s another issue. We can dream as much as we like about super star signings and I would like them as much as anyone, but they are not going to happen. So we have to be realistic and because of the settling in period which accompanies overseas players in the main, we need proven premiership players in my opinion. Sure they may not be the quality we would like long term, and if we end up with a couple of extra players in the squad after next summer’s inevitable splurge on super quality, well wouldn’t that be nice? As the signing on Monreal in January showed, the club can act fast if it really wants to. So the question is, does Wenger want to act or will he prefer to continue to dither?

  73. Happy Loser

    Dec 16, 2013, 19:42 #43043

    Green Hut - Wingeing and whining on here doesn't make you a winner. When you have exacted change that sees an upturn in Arsenal's fortunes on the pitch, I'll gladly call you a winner. Until then, you're just... well, wingeing and whining.

  74. Green Hut

    Dec 16, 2013, 19:06 #43042

    Chris- '6-3 isn't that bad a result'. What??? Any fellow members of The Happy Losers Club on here care to agree with that? And not forgetting your context, Man Utd didn't lose by any greater margin than we did, and of course tottenham have just sacked their manager. We could also have given some players at least a partial rest midweek if we had managed to put the Napoli game to bed at any point before the final whistle. I find it rather bizarre that you are slating others for bizarreness.

  75. Frank

    Dec 16, 2013, 18:49 #43041

    @chris dee Absolutely spot on.Wenger sends his teams out to play City the same way he would Hull.We have played City Utd and Chelsea so far this season and lost them all.We got 2 points out of 18 against the top 3 last season.There is a reason for that.Wenger has one way of playing and thats it and you cant play like that against the big teams.Our full backs got murdered on saturday because they were left 2 on 1 all the time.Wenger plays tippy tappy players who wont track back.Yes Walcott scored two but when did he cover back for the full backs.Pires and Lungberg couldnt tackle a fish supper but they always helped out the full backs.

  76. maguiresbridge gooner

    Dec 16, 2013, 18:30 #43040

    BADARSE, still a pain in my fooking head too.

  77. maguiresbridge gooner

    Dec 16, 2013, 18:19 #43039

    Just when we're pissed off with our own team and manager after another stuffing and having nothing to laugh about, and with the postmortem in full flow up pop the dependable spuds to cheer us up and actually give us something to laugh about and not make the weekend look too bad after all. And then not been content with that, the next day they do it all over again, and set us all off all over again and set us up nicely for the week. They really were put on this planet for our amusement. Forever in our shadow.

  78. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Dec 16, 2013, 17:53 #43038

    No thesis, Chris, just a couple of facts, followed by an observation. Nothing for anyone to grab hold of and 'debate'. It's just more baldy put than some would like.

  79. Ron

    Dec 16, 2013, 17:52 #43037

    Ha ha . Hi Westie. Good day on Saturday matey. The result never stops that. Yet, OGL must have heard me as he left the 'hider' out (Caz) and started the Wallflower, hennce after 4 pints pre game, i was getting bolder re my hunch as others thought it was the beer s effects on lack of a good breakfast. Im not advising him again! Betting? Not on my hunch last Saturday old buddy. My guitaring talent is a bit Cazorlaesque mate. Rarely gets the best scales right, missed chords all over the shop and tending to hide from the trickiest riffs!

  80. Chris

    Dec 16, 2013, 17:48 #43036

    SGRB - The fact that Wenger achieves what he does near the top end of the table, where it's more difficult due to the law of diminishing returns, gives the lie to your thesis....

  81. BADARSE

    Dec 16, 2013, 17:46 #43035

    Thanks wetsie, ha ha. Oh what a festive mood I'm in. Think we all imagined Ron spitting blood and cursing everyone connected with AFC. We have red nose maguiresbridge, Ron 'Bah humbugging' his way towards Xmas and me quite calm and relaxed, proof you can be intoxicated even as a teetotaller. Am expecting a different Arsenal to take to the pitch next Monday, and Messi joining us just after Xmas.

  82. jeff wright

    Dec 16, 2013, 17:41 #43034

    Ron,a club statement after the Ozil 42m signing made clear that Stan had played a 'prominent part' in the signing . Wenger signed Sanago on a free - that's an Arsene signing. With our already big wage bill it's unlikely that we will see any big wage earners added in January .

  83. Ron

    Dec 16, 2013, 17:40 #43033

    BARD - S.G.R.B sums up why youre right to say that we will be 'there or thereabouts'. Nobody can sensibly say otherwise really. What SGRB doesnt say is that we ll knock over most teams in the PL, as its qualitively quite a poor league really when you look behind the hype. In my view the standard has nose dived in the recession years ie since 2008. Whether recession has a link, ive no real idea. A few are mentioning the Liverpool resurgence. They seemed good v the dispirited spuds, whos players have disgustingly stopped playing for AVB in my view plus theyve no europe to do. I suspect Suarez is this years Bale though and if he dries up, Liverpool will too.

  84. Westlower

    Dec 16, 2013, 17:33 #43032

    Badarse, You got the instruments mixed up as Ron is THE guitar player. It also appears by his despondent mood that he done his boll**ks betting on his predicted 2-1 scoreline. He's even resorted to calling me Wetsie now, probably more accurate thinking about it? Deep breath please Ron. Dangerous game, predictions???? You should try betting for a living!

  85. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Dec 16, 2013, 17:31 #43031

    Basically, the Wenger way will win you a couple more than you lose and draw, meaning a top 4 finish. And as he doesn't tend to spend much on transfers, it'll also 'win' you a couple of stats, e.g. 'points per spend'. Obviously some find that more pleasing than others.

  86. Ron

    Dec 16, 2013, 17:19 #43030

    GOONER RON - City could quite easily have scored 9 matey. Walcotts goals were well taken, like a mirage in the Sahara. He actually showed a poise that his team mates never could and im not a Walcott fan. JJ - being a fan for years doesnt on its own make us so critical. For me, its so many years of seeing the team so frequently lack character, fold and shirk fights. Ive seen most of the bottle jobs and went last Saturday (albeit on a cheapo last min ticket) and swear i must stop it. I still enjoy the away days though for reasons rarely seen on the pitch, but Wengers teams havent inspired for at least 5 years and neither has he!BADARSE - i dont know matey re Ozil. To be frank him and Wilshere looked like players whove lost interest last Saturday. Both were a disgrace. Ozils performaces re the better sides have been pretty poor though. He was worse at Utd though i thought. Did Wenger sanction his buy? Who knows? 42 Mill? Easy to think not isnt it.

  87. jeff wright

    Dec 16, 2013, 17:18 #43029

    I'm not convinced by the we are the only team to score 3 at City argument being used for a positive in Wenger's favour. He went for broke and played to score goals by sacrificing some defensive stability. No surprise either to see Kosser disappearing for an early bath again when he saw another AC Milan result happening . I said the other day that Wenger will win nothing playing the type of football that he coaches and with the small technical players that he has signed - I saw nothing in the 3 games played last week that makes me want to change my mind. Liverpool after their demolition job on the hapless spuds can now go a point ahead of us at the top of the table on Saturday if they beat Cardiff at Anfield. C'est la vie !

  88. Moscow Gooner

    Dec 16, 2013, 17:13 #43028

    I think the Chelsea game is the critical one: defeat at OT and at Citeh disappointing but not the end of the world - in 70/71 we lose 0-5 early on at Stoke and that spurred us on to great things. But: to lose at home to Chelsea with a full strength, well-rested, squad would be unacceptable and a sure marker for meltdown in 2014. 'Taxi for Mr Wenger' time. We'll then finish the season needing to win to claim 4th place and so it will go on season after season after season. This was the year remember when we finally had the funds available to compete: a win against Chelsea would give credence to that and give us the platform for a great second half to the season. If we can beat Chelsea at home then you would have to back in the home games against Citeh and United. Do or die time.

  89. Bard

    Dec 16, 2013, 17:08 #43027

    The crucial point about buying anyone is that it's a risk whether it's January or the summer. It's more difficult in Jan that's for sure but didn't we once buy the fat russian one Jan window and he produced some great performances for a while. The difference now is we're close to having a terrific side ( Ron I don't agree the side needs a complete overhaul) and we still have a great chance of the title. As CG and others have said we keep knocking over the lesser sides and we will be there or thereabouts come May. A new striker would give us options and allow Giroud the rest he needs. A nasty f**** r in midfield to share the load with Flamini would do us no end of good. If a manager of Wengers experience cant make that happen then he shouldnt be in the job.

  90. Ron

    Dec 16, 2013, 17:03 #43026

    Hi Chris - Absolutely. It was a pure hunch we might squeak some thing from the City game. Intuition as you say. It was a fools intuition and reflected a momentary departure from reality. I also said on another thread that despite my momentary hunch, i wdt be suprised if we lost 4-0 either. You might say i was having it both ways! It doesnt alter my longer and consistently held view though mate, that Wenger should have gone in August 2011 after the OT thumping. Similarly, my view has also oft been said that i want him gone in May whatever this season brings and that wont be much. The squad is lightweight and lacks fibre and has done for years. Its cappable of the odd good result though all the same. My hunch thought they might just exceed themselves and relsih a game v City. Instead they lost it, paniced and lost their discipline. People blaming the linesman and ref etc astonish me now. For large periods, it was men v boys and quite a few of us afterwards thought ikewise.

  91. Steve 1962er

    Dec 16, 2013, 17:01 #43025

    Yes we need a centre half and a forward, but Ashley Williams is certainly not the answer, we need far better than him, he is frequently beaten in the air and positional sense leaves a lot to be desired.

  92. jjetplane

    Dec 16, 2013, 16:57 #43024

    Was suprised Ron that you thought we would do something last saturday but can understand you feeling like s... about Arsenal again. I keep wondering just what is wrong with someone supporting a team for life and taking that team to task when they disappoint. That is part of the picture. Mr Wenger has been in his job a very long time and he has got to be thinking if things are pearshaped yet again come March, he might wanna move upstairs and give it to a younger bod. We should never assume people will be on the first plane when Arsenal come looking but I think we will have to look towards someone like Martinez (passion!) to take Arsenal out of becoming an eternal soft touch. I look back on the game at Cardiff and think they did Arsenal no favours by sitting back for a spontaneous Ramsay day. Though he dealt well with it, I would rather a Cardiff trying to tear holes in us. I think this season is only just beginning and the Indian Summer is over. Now for some serious football Mr Wenger.

  93. BADARSE

    Dec 16, 2013, 16:41 #43022

    Welcome back Ron. When westlower said, 'It's squeaky bum time!' I thought it was your introduction to enter stage right. Hope you had a good weekend pal. Now tell me please. Many were excited by Ozil's arrival, not so many at the moment perhaps. Thing is was he Arsene's purchase? Does he get the credit for it, as at the time many wanted (some still do), to give the 'gee' to another. Now if people allow their disappointment to show it becomes a given that Arsene did buy him. The manager loses both ways, which is often the basis for gripes on this board. By the way are you any good on castanets?

  94. HowardL

    Dec 16, 2013, 16:41 #43021

    It could be worse - we could be in Oz supporting England in 40 degrees. At least we're still top...

  95. Chris

    Dec 16, 2013, 16:33 #43020

    Ron - Last week you were giving us the benefit of your intuition, tipping us that you fancied Arsenal to get some kind of a result at Citeh. Now, according to you, the squad needs a massive overhaul and the manager should be first out of the door. 6-3 isn't that bad a result, esp not in the context of Man U or Sp*rs' recent results there, or Arsenal's schedule that week. With all due respect, given the context of your previous comments, it sounds a bit bizarre that you are stating now that both the team that has STILL amassed more points than any other in 2013 and its coach, who as been shown to be the best points per pound manager in the country, need to be sacked! What would Wenger do with the billion pounds it's taken Citeh to build their squad? (rhetorical quesiton - no need for answers about hand it back / waste it on dross etc)

  96. GoonerRon

    Dec 16, 2013, 16:21 #43019

    @ Ron - Theo scoring two goals on his first start since injury, away at Citeh who had previously only conceded 2 goals in 7 games at home. Surely a positive, no?

  97. Ron

    Dec 16, 2013, 16:20 #43018

    Wetsie makes a good point about buying more dross in January. Generally you get rebels, dossers with names, unfit 'past its' and downright lazy fu----s whos bosses have frozen them out, plus lightweight, perenniel crock types. As for the latter, Wenger can doubtless pick up a few of them as hes been an avid collector for 8 years already. Arsenal cant be placed into a position where they can genuinely compete with the big boys just by a surgical bit of January tinkering. The squad needs almost a total overhaul and to start it the exit door needs oiling so it can cope with the outbound ones who should be shown it in the Coach's wake. The sqaud is the result of Wengers creativity, the types of player he has and the culture theyve been schooled on runs through its DNA. A signing or two doesnt change that. A new Coach does, who looks to pick build a team of winners, notwithstanding such players might not be in the coaches own image. City have crushed the last vestiges of an illusion that the team this year is really any good. Its little different and the 42 Million quid man looks like serious cash wasted. Many of us didnt want Wenger near the cheque book over the last 2-3 years and have said so many times, as its unsafe in his hands. Saturday showed why. City perversely have actually done the Club a favour.

  98. BADARSE

    Dec 16, 2013, 16:19 #43017

    jeff wright. jeff I accept and understand exactly what you are saying. I would never sit and contemplate mine, or for that matter, your naval. I do recognise what is. I do not believe we are a finished product and would crave and be excited by another couple of proven talents arriving. However, realistically I do not expect that to happen in January, though it would be a magnificent fillip to the squad. We-you, Bard and myself, are of a kind. We all want to push on from here, not to lose that momentum already created. I think we still hope for the positive outcome. My viewpoint is that it is unlikely to happen in January. How wonderful it would be if someone arrives from over the horizon and does the business. Daydream believer signing off-as it's now night time.

  99. Ron

    Dec 16, 2013, 15:55 #43016

    It was 6-3. There are no positives except perhaps if that gutless Board as a result tell Wenger hes leaving in May. That will be the best and only 'positive' we ve had since Utd mauled us in 2011. Is it going to take a Munich mauling to underline the necessity for change? Taking 'positves' is what Norwich and West Brom do after a pasting.

  100. jeff wright

    Dec 16, 2013, 15:48 #43015

    Ha! Hoddle the messiah will get crucified again ... I hope Levy gives the poisoned chalice to that odious oaf Sherwood... no one deserves it more ...

  101. Westlower

    Dec 16, 2013, 15:15 #43014

    Some interesting names in the betting for next Spurs manager: Adams, O'Leary, Platt, GG all 66/1; Henry, Brady, Bould all 100/1; Favourites are Capello, Laudrup, Hoddle & Sherwood. To dare is to do!

  102. jeff wright

    Dec 16, 2013, 15:13 #43013

    Badarse, what about Chamakh he's been scoring goals . Bendtner was on his way to Palace before Sanogo was injured , Chammy and Bendy would have made a fearsome looking strike duo - and that's only their barnets.

  103. chris dee

    Dec 16, 2013, 15:09 #43012

    It's not the players. It's how the manager sets up the team.Only someone arrogant,stubborn or naive would ask his players to play the same way no matter who the opponents,unless you have 4 or 5 'worldy' players in the team and we ain't. Henry,Vieira,Campbell,Pires,Freddie,Gilberto,Cole.Lehman come to mind. George Graham did not have the most talented or biggest squad in the league but we still came top.Pragmatism is also a great virtue.

  104. BADARSE

    Dec 16, 2013, 14:55 #43011

    @GoonerRon, I would put in a bid for Dzeko, and it would be turned down. If I was then desperate, as we are, I would look at Bendtner, and buy him in the expectation of turning him and his career around. But I don't have to buy him, he is here. So I would then shop around for any up and coming young player with unproven form to supplement what we already have. If I knew of a PL player on the edge at his club I would push for a half season loan. That is precisely what I would do. If any of my team of advisers, scouts, 'men in the know', gave me an heads up on an unhappy and unsettled player I would weigh the options and possibly make a move. As I said a difficult labyrinth to negotiate around.

  105. johnnyhawleyloovinggooner

    Dec 16, 2013, 14:54 #43010

    hey hey cheer up! the panto season has started at the lane already. no matter how bad our board is there is always someone worse managed than us. you would of thought he would at least of got to the FA cup. anyway it shows the pitfalls of spending large amounts of money and making lots of changes.see the chavs are complaining about their forwards poor return on goals and looking to spend more of their benefactor's money.priceless.can they not spend their own money by selling the players he is unhappy with and spending the money he gets for them like everyone else? oh i forgot, he give them that money too.look at the stories of a black hole in manu's trading figures if they don't make the CL before calling for an empty piggy bank ( i wonder are they true?).Westlower is spot on.we can only buy a very promising player and hope he hits the ground running.

  106. jeff wright

    Dec 16, 2013, 14:52 #43009

    Badarse ,I myself find constant sermons delivered from the pulpit of pomposity that point at aeroplanes to be rather tiresome . We all know that we are top of the league and through to the KO stages of the CL if this apart from financially is of benefit to us remains to seen. Personally I believe that with our squad that it just makes things a bit harder for us in the Prem,as we saw again last Saturday. Given that it's unlikely that Wenger is about to break his duck in Europe.

  107. Bard

    Dec 16, 2013, 14:51 #43008

    Badarse and co I agree it's a risk but I don't agree you can only buy dissatisfied players, many want more money and a better club. We havent been this close for years an astute signing or two just might be enough. Of course it's not a shoo in if he buys but better to have tried and failed than not try at all. All this 'keep your powder dry for another day' is misguided. The real issue is whether the boss has got the balls to do what's necessary. It's my view that he hasn't and that this will be another of those 'what could have been' seasons that we specialise in. And before anyone asks how about Michu, Benteke, Hernandez.

  108. maguiresbridge gooner

    Dec 16, 2013, 14:49 #43007

    Positives Ian? well it wasn't eight, and it's not much good scoring goals when your conceding double. A good point about who OGL was angry with, i doubt very much it was himself but will he/players learn? how many times over the last nine years has that question been asked after every mistake and every beating? even though we already know the answer, the saying you can't teach an old dog new tricks has been aired on many an occasion. Reinforcements are needed alright and have always been, when was the last time we could say our squad was complete, really ready? or as near as damm,the mention of the cart horse says it all. Stubborn and arrogant is an excellent description but we've known that for a long time the more fans want something (changes, signings) the least chance there is of it happening he held out to the very last minute before signing Ozil who hasn't exactly set the prem alight since the hype, and it's still been debated if he was a Wenger signing or not. The squad needs strengthening alright but as i've said that's always been the case so don't expect it to change anytime soon certainly not with real super quality anyway, OGL's super quality maybe. Good piece Ian.

  109. GoonerRon

    Dec 16, 2013, 14:43 #43006

    If we could get a couple of top quality players for the right price then I would certainly welcome it that's for sure, although I'm not the likes of Shane Long are of the requisite quality. Regarding Bendtner, he came on against City with what 20 minutes to go and scored a goal that was wrongly chalked off and set up a clear chance for Theo with a brilliant scooped through ball. What else can we reasonably expect from an impact sub? If it was Dzeko or Jovetic who did exactly the same thing we'd be eulogising over the quality of their striking options. I'm not saying there aren't better back up strikers, but there is zero balance when it comes to the assessment of Bendter's on pitch performance. @ Danny - I'm impressed with the depth of your research in knowing the specific finances of every manager's contract in world football.

  110. BADARSE

    Dec 16, 2013, 14:36 #43005

    jeff wright, I don't see Spaced as a smug self satisfied type, chum. I think he just gets exasperated by the same entreaties. It can become 'white noise'. Irrespective of my personal views I know January is the worst time to buy, if you are purchasing for a specific/s. We know clubs don't want to sell good players, especially mid-season, and a player from abroad is an unlikely option. Settling in period would nullify any positives in buying him. January demands the player hits the ground running. PL player is always an option of course but who but a dissatisfied player would want to transfer. We sure as heck could scoop up dross, but do we really want 'a finger in the dyke' job? Say yes, sign him up, long-term contract, all goes horribly wrong and people howl that we have 'deadwood'. It is a tricky situation. It would be great if work has been done behind the scenes for a very good 'permanent' player, who could lend himself to our current campaign, but it would be both unfair and unrealistic to expect him to carry our hopes. A very difficult position to negotiate around. I think a good loan deal may occur at best, but like you, I live in hope but don't dream of a big signing.

  111. Danny

    Dec 16, 2013, 14:19 #43004

    There is nothing positive from a thrashing and this cannot go on. This rout was the UNITED 8-2 defeat and will go on with the big boys We have a management structure that supports a useless Coach who will never win anything. Only positive in my eyes is a firing like spurs did this morning Arsenal will only finish the minimum 4th and this cannot be tolerated with a club that has the highest tickets prices and a highest paid coach in the world

  112. jeff wright

    Dec 16, 2013, 14:02 #43003

    There is always an element of risk involved when signing a striker Westie,ask spuds and Chelsea about it . However,the facts are that no matter what smug self satisfied types like Space say, Wenger in the past has come unstuck by not taking a risk on signing new players when we have been in a promising position. Results of course between now and when the window opens may leave us in a not so promising one - but whatever the position is Wenger needs to pull a rabbit out of his old magic hat - if he still has it .

  113. GoonerD

    Dec 16, 2013, 14:00 #43002

    In blackjack terms, AW has 16 - a hand that might win because it beats 80% of hands. He pretty much has an even chance of going bust as he does of bettering his hand by twisting. The reason it's a gamble for AW to spend big over Xmas, is because Arsenal don't have the money of their rivals. For Mourinho - paying £65 million for Suarez wouldn't be a gamble. For AW it would be a make or break move. If the past is anything to go by, AW isn't much of a gambler and will wait until the summer to reinforce the squad when the stakes aren't quite as high.

  114. Westlower

    Dec 16, 2013, 13:44 #43000

    Jeff, If we bought average PL class players the question would be asked by Feb as to why we've wasted money + long contracts on players who couldn't improve us. We quickly overlook the fact not many, if any, available players could step into a top 4 club. If they're that good, why would their clubs be looking to offload them in Jan? It's one thing being a big fish for a mid-table club but a completely different game at the top level. No, I didn't take any 2/1 but I was tempted at 18/1 after the Villa defeat. Winning the PL means much more than money. Can't believe I said that!

  115. smithy

    Dec 16, 2013, 13:17 #42995

    I agree with the majority of whats written, but feel we need to aim higher than Micho or Long. I cannot believe there isn't a brilliant striker in the whole of world football who isn't champions league cup tied. We need to look further afield across the world or bang in a £60 million bid for Suarez. Caution is not what we need in the striker department, as what we currently have, are not world class.

  116. Spaced

    Dec 16, 2013, 13:12 #42994

    Top of the league and in the knockouts of the Champions League. Just not good enough!!! Sack Wenger and get AVB, right?

  117. jeff wright

    Dec 16, 2013, 13:10 #42993

    Westie, goals scored at International level are irrelevant to domestic comps. Poldolski has a poor record for us and is hardly Herr Fitness . He's scored 46 goals for Deutschland in 111 appearances . Whose record isthis > 82 played 62 goals scored . A clue... he's Irish ... perhaps using your criteria we should sign him then ... no... thought not ! Berbatov or a similiar Prem experienced one would be a good signing in January to help out in the remains of our season. He also has experience playing fussball in the Bundesliga - and that might also come in handy nine ? I hope you didn't take the 2-1 on us for the Prem, you can get 4-1 now and we are top of the league with a 2 point lead .

  118. WeAreBuildingATeamToDominate

    Dec 16, 2013, 13:02 #42991

    aah, the old chestnut of "Accenuating The Positive", in these days when figures of authority have to satiate our wonderful meeeeedja's craving for knee-jerk quotes and "putting a positive angle on it". As in, "yeah we lost 4-0, but their third goal was a yard offside." Losing 6-3 away to your title challengers doesn't seem to me to be any reason for putting a positive spin on anything. Still we could always be supporters of a certain other North London side, the recipients of a spanking this weekend, who didn't even have the excuse of being away from home............

  119. Westlower

    Dec 16, 2013, 12:55 #42990

    Bayern Munich (A) 11/3; Spurs (A) 15/3; Chelsea (A) 22/3; Man City (H) 29/3; Squeaky bum time!

  120. DJ

    Dec 16, 2013, 12:54 #42989

    As I posted in the summer we should have broken the bank to get that nasty man Suarez. Instead we are left with willing trier, lovely bloke Giroud who just isn't good enough to lead the line on his own!

  121. Westlower

    Dec 16, 2013, 12:34 #42987

    I find it hard to agree that buying Michu or Long is any improvement on what we already have. Long has 10 International goals from 43 games for Republic of Ireland & Michu 0 goals at International level, albeit after only one appearance for Spain. We are talking Eddie McGoldrick & John Hartson types. AFC currently have two International class strikers with 70 goals from 167 appearances for Germany & Denmark.

  122. John

    Dec 16, 2013, 12:32 #42986

    There are no positives when you concede 6 goals.But we scored 3 goals cry the Wenger loyalists so what?We scored 2 and missed a penalty in the Man Utd 8 goal humilation.Wenger is tactically bankrupt.He should have set a team out to get a draw.But no he tries to slug it out toe to toe with the best home team in the league.And he proudly says afterwards we could have scored 6 forgetting the chances City missed.The lack of a top class striker will eventually kill us as the season goes on.Giroud is willing but is not a great finisher and has no pace.Watching Suarez at Liverpool reminds me of when Henry was running riot in the league.We are two weeks away from when the window opens.Wenger has known since the summer we need a striker he needs to have one lined up on Jan 1st not scrambling about on deadline day for a cheap £3m player or a loan deal

  123. hibeegunner

    Dec 16, 2013, 12:13 #42985

    Any comment this morning Finsbury Joe who is the laughing stock this morning.

  124. Bard

    Dec 16, 2013, 10:29 #42981

    Great post Ian although you are liable to get a load of stick from the 'status quo' merchants who even think Bendtner a decent back up striker. The interesting issue here is the boss himself. Can he afford not to sign players ? He is stubborn but his power is not what it used to be, hence the panic buying of Ozil at the beginning of the season. All the fans know we need a couple to make a real fist of the challenge and we now have the money. If he doesn't buy and we experience the usual Feb disintegration he may be a dead man walking come the end of the season. Yes of course we can't buy world class players in the window but seasoned prem players are affordable.

  125. Ron

    Oct 30, 2012, 13:54 #27342

    PPP - Such compliments!Thank you. Yes, actually i was and have been concerned about the departure of the Club from having much in the way of any local/British roots as we entered the noughties and often argued as such.Many others have done too. If your understanding of a Clubs 'roots' simply means a little geographical distance along Gillespie Rd, theres no point debating it with you either. I wont lose any sleep over your disagreement with me either, you little intellectual powerhouse you!

  126. Stevesam

    Oct 29, 2012, 20:20 #27318

    @Jude - One Ramsey on the pitch is worth more than two Diaby's sitting at home in a Spud shirt on 60k a week !

  127. ppp

    Oct 29, 2012, 20:04 #27316

    @Ron - do shut up you whinging idiot. The club hasn't lost it's roots it's less than a hundred yards away from Highbury you dribbling fool. You weren't complaining about the "french foreigners" when they won doubles and league titles and fa cups galore were you?

  128. Hamza

    Oct 29, 2012, 17:35 #27307

    well, whatever happened to get us there, it was still: One nil to the Arsenal, One nil to the Arsenal, One nil to the Arsenal, One nil to the Arsenal! Can anyone even remember the last time that happened?

  129. Ed enough....

    Oct 29, 2012, 12:28 #27298

    Lets av it right...the only reason wonky kroenke stuck around after the AGM was to watch the peanut slingers at wembley yesterday...He cares even less about actually watching Arsenal than he does about the state of the club he mostly owns...and old trafford will NOT be intresting...It will be another massacre of embarrssing proportions once again...RVP hat-trick almost nailed on...

  130. Ron

    Oct 29, 2012, 11:32 #27297

    The whole Cub is pervaded by a laid back foreign, cosmopolitan, shrug of the Gallic shoulders approach. Its happy with with it and has been since the foreigners (primarily and fundametally French) hi jacked the Club post Wenger. Not many cared then that the Club was losing its identity and roots, some of us did. The chickens have now come home to roost. We re not only clueless and soulless, but miserable, mardy arsed and sadly gutless too. There will always be scapegoats and excuses. Thats the one and only thing the French have always excelled at. Id love to know and hear George Grahams true feelings on what he sees before him!

  131. chris dee

    Oct 29, 2012, 10:03 #27293

    Shows how bad things are when we rush to put a barely fit Jack Wilshere into the line up and a 'big club' relies on a 20 year old ,no matter how good,to raise moral and produce a result. Jack should be playing no more than a game every two weeks until Christmas,because if he breaks down again we will looking at another Diaby and Gibbs situation. Arsenal should also tell Roy Hodgson to f*** off and come back next year regarding Jack playing for England What's the chance of Arsene breaking the habit of lifetime and putting out our best possible team against Reading,trying to get a good win,trying to get thru to the next round of a competion the fans are gagging to win,and building up the players confidence for the trip to Van Persie's home patch? Nah!Not frigging likely.

  132. GoonerRon

    Oct 29, 2012, 9:23 #27290

    @ Theos bikini line - I'm not saying, nor have ever said, that everything is perfect. What I am saying is that over the last few years (and particularly last season) Wenger has been absolutely battered (some of it justifiable) for not building a defensive strong enough defence to maintain a title challenge. I was merely pointing out that, whilst still early on the season, we have significantly improved our GA column in the league. I can guarantee if we had the worst defence in the league (like this point last season) lots on here would be whingeing about it so I am trying to apply some balance.

  133. HowardL

    Oct 29, 2012, 9:07 #27288

    Intensive Care? Transplant Surgery? Euthanasia might be kinder.

  134. Daniel

    Oct 29, 2012, 6:49 #27284

    It needs us to finish outside the top 4 for anything to change.As long as we keep scrapping into the top 4 it will be carry on the same.As long as Wenger thinks 4th is a trophy its Groundhog season after Groundhog season This is not a good Arsenal squad Manonne Sandross Ramsey Gervinho and Giroud are not premiership players yet Wenger cant see it.It reminds me of the 94/95 season when GG had lost the plot.But GG never went more than two seasons without a trophy. Kroenke will never get rid of Wenger for football reasons so we are stuck with him for a long term yet

  135. Joe S.

    Oct 29, 2012, 3:13 #27283

    Already so much weight placed on Wiltshire. It is worrying,although you do dream of him doing some Roy of the Rovers stuff and inspiring the likes of Carzola and Arshavin to not throw in the towel. Don't hold your breath. There is just too much to get angry about. Why have we brought so much dross?What do Giroud and Plodosky offer the team long term good championship fodder that they are. Why is Santos on our squad? The lazy sod was hiding in Turkey taking the big bucks for minimum effort: in one sense a typically Brazilian mercinary. Too much damage has been done to the balance of the team and the only solution is a mass clearout. The only ones laughing are the players who had the sense to jump ship.

  136. matt1202

    Oct 29, 2012, 2:40 #27282

    I always find these articles interesting if purely for the shocking journalistic bias the online editor employs in them. Bould got all the credit when we were keeping clean sheets at the start of the season, suddenly we concede some sloppy goals against Chelsea and Norwich in the league and no mention of our number 2 anywhere, blame is all on Wenger. Then a nothing story comes out in the press (such a non-entity that no major paper even bothered running it) and hey presto, it's back to the Steve Bould knows what he's doing and Wenger has no idea rhetoric. Didn't see Bould sorting out the defence when they were all over the place against Schalke and Wenger was stuck in the stands, but again no mention in the editorial for that game. Your articles are getting very tired and predictable. In spite of Wenger if we win, 100% his fault if we lose

  137. Theo's Bikini-Line

    Oct 28, 2012, 23:54 #27281

    GoonerRon: as you are keen on quoting statistics here's another one for you: did you know that unless we get something from Old Trafford next week we will have our worst 10 match points total since 1994/95? Add that to our worst defeat in 115 years; our worst European Cup/CL defeat and the only premier side to lose a 4 goal lead and it's plain to see that regardless of how Wenger and his disciples like you try to spin it, things are patently NOT getting better and show no signs of doing so!!

  138. Wombledin

    Oct 28, 2012, 22:47 #27280

    We did just enough to beat QPR because we were in ninth spot. On the pitch and off it, the entire Club is now completely psychologically conditioned to achieving the 4th place threshold, nothing more, nothing less, having fallen under wizard Wenger's spell that this is a big success, a trophy in fact. Thus the players have no incentive or desire to achieve more than that. Its a disgrace. The further the team slips away from 4th, the greater effort they put in, but having reached the treshold the less effort they put in. Shame on Wenger as a manager of a Club as big as Arsenal to keep repeating that the CL qualification threshold is a 'trophy'. This bridesmaid, loser mentality is pervading the whole culture of the Club and hampering the team psychologically. It's entirely down to Wenger, who alone stubbornly refuses to spend the enormous transfer kitty's he's had at his disposal so as to seriously challenge again, and the whole Board is bewitched by it. Man U or Chelsea fans would never stand for one of their Managers lowering the bar of expectation like this year after year.

  139. Danny

    Oct 28, 2012, 22:11 #27279

    Guys, have you see Bould and Wenger sitting together. No eye contact or consultation./ Something is up there I definitely think Wenger has said something i am convinced during the Schalke 04 would have taken off the idiot Santos, but Wenger would have got pissed off. Boulds comments after the game was Wenger made the decisions and its his team Get rid this french clown quick!

  140. Big Andy

    Oct 28, 2012, 19:56 #27277

    This reminds me so much of the last days of George Graham. We have a once-great manager who has lost the plot, a squad stuffed with average players, and supporters who are completely disenchanted. This season will be another wash out: we will win nothing again. Hopefully, we will drop out of the top four and then Wenger will be on his way. Then maybe a new manager will come in and sort this mess out.

  141. Treble Double

    Oct 28, 2012, 19:42 #27276

    Another inept performance but at least we got the 3 points. Glad the goal was offside cos it serves to f@ck off that odious twat Hughes! A big couple of weeks coming up and I'm not feeling confident.

  142. DW Thomas

    Oct 28, 2012, 19:00 #27275

    Ramsey is way out of his depth. Santos, not the best, is not that bad either. Podolski has not played that well lately. Who has skill,and vision in this team anymore? Wilshire did look so much better than everyone else but was hacked all game br Granero. Jack is top class like Cazorla. But put Ramsey and other sub par players in there and we just don't tick. Giroud needs time, he works hard and just needs more games and service. Sagna's crossing was great by the way. When did he learn that skill? Still were very lucky as Mackie walked thru us and should have scored. A win is a win, yet we look poor with no real game changing players.

  143. Fozzy's mate

    Oct 28, 2012, 18:43 #27274

    Just watched manure v Chelski. Two teams in a different league to us. Our ex skipper was awesome again but still we have 25 million in the bank instead. SAF is now best mates with OGL instead of being at his throat because he is no threat whatsoever. Next week he will give him a friendly pat on the head as RVP destroys us. But as SAF said in the summer Wenger drove a hard bargain on price..

  144. GoonerRon

    Oct 28, 2012, 17:04 #27273

    For all those speculating about how many Man U will score next week, take a look at the league table and see the goals against column. We have the best defensive record in the league having played more games away than at home. Now, either Wenger is responsible for this on the coaching ground in which case shouldn't we acknowledge that? Of it is down to Steve Bould then shouldn't Wenger be praised for bringing him onto the coaching staff? Either way, we've made our joint best defensive start in the last 7 years and have conceded 67% fewer goals than this time last year. We got to OT with confidence slightly restored and an injury list looking slightly better.

  145. Jude Jolicoeur

    Oct 28, 2012, 16:35 #27272

    Simon f...The only thing Ramsey is proving is that he doesn't seem to be good at anything -- no speed, no one-on-one ability, attacks either slow down or break down when he gives it away cheaply or gets dispossessed when he does try to drive us forward. It's getting old. How many Hollywood passes will he attempt before realizing he's not good enough to be making them? How often will he, under no pressure at all, send a cross into the stands? Meanwhile, Arshavin gets introduced and within moments actually finds an Arsenal player in the box, not a fan in the stands, that results in a goal. What a novel idea. I'm not buying the out-of-position excuse for the lad. The more he plays, the more obvious it's becoming that he's rubbish, irrespective of position. Can't imagine Red Nose is too upset about missing out on him.

  146. Tim

    Oct 28, 2012, 16:01 #27271

    Gibbs is sorely missed. I can't wait to hear Tom's assessment of "Big George off the Estate" tomorrow on the Forum. He's proved after Norwich, Schalke and Rangers that he's woefully out of shape and out of his depth at this level, yet I'm sure we'll hear that he still rates the lad. Pathetic.

  147. GaryFootscrayAustralia

    Oct 28, 2012, 15:58 #27270

    My thanks go to Arteta and Sagna, who willed the team to three ugly, critical points. Serious deja vu from Swansea at home last season. Extra special congrats to the women's team, currently the best team at the club by several outback kilometres. It's maybe to Laura Harvey's favour that the women's game doesn't carry the same transfer market value as the men's, as I believe Stan and Ollie Gazidis would have sold Emma Byrne, Steph Houghton, Faye White, Alex Scott, Kelly Smith and Rachel Yankey before now, leaving Harvey dealing with the annual re-building job that the men's squad has faced for the last three to seven years, depending on your definition of re-building. The Ladies have not (yet?) been categorised as a revenue stream, and the result is plenty of trophies. More power to them.

  148. ianmac

    Oct 28, 2012, 14:36 #27269

    I don't want Wenger to spend in Jan, I just want him out. He obviously can't see a good player. Everton have bought Jelavic, Mirallas and Pienaar(back from spurs) who are far better than Giroud, Ramsey and Gervinho. And they cost a lot less than ours. He is buying very average players at over inflated prices. He must be made accountable for all onfield matters at least. We can't trust him with more money surely.

  149. maguiresbridge gooner

    Oct 28, 2012, 14:28 #27268

    Yes Kev they were sitting on the 50 yard line waiting for the first touch down then the old fart took him off for a miller to explain the offside rule that's if he knows it himself i'm sure if they'd have asked TA he'd have kept them right.Of course it's bloody mindedness Kev the more the fans call for something ie a substitution a player to be dropped/rested a player to be played in his proper position the less likely it is to happen as is being proved and being pissed with bouldy for getting all the credit for our good start i brought that up a while ago after mistakes started creeping back in again that maybe there was some kind of interference my god is his ego really that big ?.If that is the case it's shameful and the man definitely is an egomaniac.We got what mattered yesterday when we eventually broke the mighty qpr down on 84min and then done our best to throw it away with the same old. There were some positives with the return of jack he had a good game not afraid to get stuck in with plenty of running and good passing hopefully he can now get fitter and stay that way.Don't bet on santos not starting at the mancs remember arsene listens to no one.

  150. Rob

    Oct 28, 2012, 13:55 #27267

    Maybe Stan has plane to catch ? Whatever the case, you can bet your last ASDA bargain he won't be there at O|T next week to witness the ensuing dismemberment. Let's hope it doesn't damage his share price too much.

  151. Canterbury Gooner

    Oct 28, 2012, 12:56 #27266

    Kev, this should have been called 'Same Performance- Different Result'. Don't take my word for it: Mark Hughes himself said in his interview to the BBC that of all his visits to the Emirates with different teams that was the easiest one he'd faced!!! Firstly, the fact they played 442 against our 433 was itself a massive help to us, and even then we couldn't carve out any chances. Hughes (again) said we only created one real chance in the Cazorla effort before we scored. We couldn't break down a team without a win playing the best formation for us to go against who sit bottom of the table. The red card got us over the line and even then we should have lost given the two chances QPR had at the end. It was a complete shambles.

  152. Money in the bank

    Oct 28, 2012, 12:46 #27265

    The only reason Kroenke is still in London after the AGM is for the NFL game at Wembley today.Nothing to do with Arsenal.At least he will see one of his teams play at Wembley this season.Yesterday was only slightly better than the last two games but remember QPR are bottom for a reason they are s**t

  153. Kenny

    Oct 28, 2012, 12:29 #27264

    Totally agree Kev when you talk about the bloody-mindedness of Wenger when he picked Ramsey and played him on the wing and the usless Santos after that performance on wednesday.We were nearly punished when both those injury time chance came down the left side.If Santos starts at LB at OT it will be at least 5-0.The return of Jack was the only bright spark.Anyone who thinks the deadwood has been removed think again.Keep Szczesny Sagna, TV, Mert, Kos, Jenks, Jack, Santi and Arteta clear out the rest

  154. Peter Wain

    Oct 28, 2012, 12:22 #27263

    Considering our poor squad and poor home record it was a good result for us. It keeps one of our relegation rivals below us and gets us nearer 40 points which is good. Apart from this it was a nothing game. With the lack of pace we have up front we will not trouble United and with the ice cream salesman in goal and Giroud and Pobolski up front the chances of us scoring must be one in a 100. Still if we had lost yesterday it would have been a lot worst.

  155. jeff wright

    Oct 28, 2012, 12:21 #27262

    The result was the main thing , but there is no point in trying to pretend that our defending and finishing was any better than it was in the two defeats that preceded it . Our goal was well offside , it was not even a close call and only QPR's squandering of two good chances - when playing with 10 men at the end - with our defense all over the place - gave us the spoils. Giroud one goal in 9 appearances - that's just not good enough - if Montpelier want him back on loan then let them have him and then Wenger can buy another striker in January. Gewrvinho will be off to the ANC then - good riddance - he's another waste of space . An inform at home United who attack at pace and with venom - will be a different proposition for our current plodders to deal with. Even Santi looks out of sorts now -if we do unlikely win at Old Traffford - and we need to do so to get into the title race - then the Cava is on me ! Personally I think we will do well to get a draw and that will probably drop us back into mid table - if we lose with a string of tough games to follow in November - then our top 4 place will be in jeopardy. A rescue job in January looks likely anyway with Wenger having to splash the cash that enlargen the already bulging wage bill with so many deadwood players on the books that he can't sell. Walcott is not one of those and he looks likely to be the next one away to ensure that Ivan's bonus on profits made gets paid to him next year.

  156. Don

    Oct 28, 2012, 12:12 #27261

    I am no big fan of Ramsey but why does that clown Wenger play him out wide?Bonkers bit like Bender playing on the wing. Is that why we pay him £7m a year?.Santos should be bombed out in january put him in the same box as Squillaci Park Chamakh and Gervinho as recent awful Wenger buys.He is overweight and not fit and for a professianal player that is a disgrace.In the 4 games v Sunderland Stoke Norwich and QPR who have won a grand total of 3 games between them we have scored one goal!Worst Arsenal team since Jensen Hillier and McGoldrick.Wouldnt Berbatov have been a better buy than that cardboard cutout Giroud? But i have never managed what do i know

  157. Simon fry

    Oct 28, 2012, 12:10 #27260

    I think Ramsey is getting a hard time unfairly on this site!! Give the guy a break!! He is Playing out of position on the right and is never gonna give us the width and pace in that position that is required. He is a very good player and will prove it! Santos however is another story. A defender that simply can't defend. We need Gibbs back ASAP and need to bring in new fullback as cover.

  158. au revoir wenger

    Oct 28, 2012, 12:05 #27259

    Of course Bould has no influence,does anyone really believe he would be an advocate of zonal marking?

  159. Gare Kekeke

    Oct 28, 2012, 11:23 #27258

    A win is win. Simples. Santos & Ramsey by the worst players for us but in fairness to Ramsey he was playing out of position. But with Wilshire slowly regaining fitness and Diaby back soon (albeit for a few games before he breaks down again. It will happen), where does the former Wales captain fit in? As for Santos, he just gets worse and worse. I’m struggling to see why some Gooners think he’s top drawer. Sansom, Winterburn, Cole et al and some of y’all think Santos is up there with them. Bitch please. Of all the panic buys in the aftermath of 8-2, he’s arguably the worst. It’s a toss up between him & Park, now officially a waste of money himself. Without being too negative though, Jack played reasonably well and hopefully he can build on it. I will personally give him time to get back to 2010/11 standard and beyond. The win has only papered over cracks and the true test of this side will be at OT next weekend. If the rumours about Wenger & Bould are true then I’m not surprised. it’s well known that Wenger doesn’t like being challenged on the training ground and after all, Bould’s promotion came a year after it was first mooted to him but probably saw (being a former Arsenal player under Wenger himself) that his influence could be minimal. It could just a pack of lies but then The Arsenal these days are very good at that. I’m sure the DDT will get more fun watching NFL at Wembley than he did watching what he calls soccer. Up The Arsenal!

  160. Gordon

    Oct 28, 2012, 10:54 #27257

    Sir Alex said to Mike Phelan "i am going to take you to see a comedy in London".Phelan said "what we are going to a matinee in the West End?"No Sir Alex said "we are going to watch Arsenal" They were both seen laughing their heads off and both gave it EIGHT out of ten

  161. We are in 5 competions!!!

    Oct 28, 2012, 10:39 #27256

    @600NER PETE make sure the parade is quick we wont be 4th come 5pm.On the United game i can see them scoring 4 or 5 against our back 4 and keeper.I fear the worst its got RVP hat-trick written all over it

  162. Adrian Wagenaar

    Oct 28, 2012, 10:36 #27255

    Kev, Would not surprise me one bit that AW was getting "a bit narked" about SB influence. AW reminds me of Richard Briers in "Ever decreasing circles" This nonsense will drag on and on until we get a proper footballing man on the board again.

  163. Jackson

    Oct 28, 2012, 10:21 #27254

    A win against the worst team in the prem and its town hall time.Think you have gone very light on them Kev it was poor again.We had four bits of luck the sending off,Gervinho getting injured could you see him putting that cross over that Arshavin did?? Arteta being offside and QPR missing two sitters afer cutting our defence apart in injury time.Jack was excellent but Cazorla had his worse game so far.Be interesting to see if they work together.On the Wenger/Bould situation i can see Bould leaving at the end of the season i dont think him and Wenger get on as Robson said.Can i just ask why Podolski is imune for criticism?See you all at the town hall.

  164. Dan h

    Oct 28, 2012, 10:10 #27253

    Santos & Ramsey the obvious weak links in the team for different reasons.Every opponent will just attack down our left hand side QPR missed two gilt edge chances at the end even with 10 men.Ramsey playing out on the right not only leaves us unbalanced & slowing down the attack but it's obvious he is struggling time to take him out of the firing line.JW coming back was great to see some nice touches & he gives the opposition something to concentrate on other than Cazorla.We again struggled at times but Cesar made some decent saves.We take the points & move on.

  165. We're Doomed

    Oct 28, 2012, 10:08 #27252

    Yes it was a win but we were poor again.I think Man U will batter us especially if Mannone Fatboy and Ramsey start.It will be 11 v 8.Kev you only have to look at the body language of Wenger and Bould on the bench to see they dont get on.This Arsenal team reminds me of the end of GG's reign players going through the motions(Podolski the worst offender how many games in a row now has he been subbed?u35u3)No fight no passion.We need a new manager to freshen up the club with new ideas who will have a clearout from top to bottom.Our game lacks pace its all stop start .Isnt it ironic that one of our best players this season Jenko has to be left out because his replacement Sagna is a better player when the likes of Santos Ramsey and Giroud get starts.In january we need a keeper a LB and a Striker(just like we did in the summer) or else its 5th place.Lets just hope Gervinho is out for a long time

  166. Ron

    Oct 28, 2012, 9:58 #27251

    They wouldnt have won had Rangers kept 10 men till the end. Poor tedious game and QPR really should have nabbed the equaliser at the end anyway.

  167. Frank

    Oct 28, 2012, 9:52 #27250

    Old Trafford will not be interesting.We will get our backsides spanked again.Anything less than Utd scoring 4 will be looked on by Wenger as a victory.Thats where we are now.A scrappy win against the bottom club after the previous two defeats tills you we are nothing more than average.Best thing to happen yesterday was Forehead getting injured we can only hope Santos and Ramsey get injured before OT

  168. 600NER PETE

    Oct 28, 2012, 9:39 #27249

    We're in fourth place at the moment. Shall we have an open top bus ride round Islington this afternoon?