It’s grim ‘oop north

Online Ed: Scoreline respectable, if not performance at Old Trafford



It’s grim ‘oop north

Arsene: Ever decreasing circles


Arsenal made a fist of it in this game in the second half for about 15 minutes after the entrance of Theo Walcott, although I’m not sure how much the switch had to do with that. Maybe United sat a bit deeper out of fear of the number 14’s pace, allowing more space for Arsenal to create. Even then, they still could not register a shot on target. United’s second goal and the dismissal of Jack Wilshere soon afterwards had me wishing for the full time whistle with 20 minutes left and Arsenal two goals down. Hardly the same feeling as last Tuesday night against Reading.

Cazorla’s last kick of the game consolation put a respectable gloss on the result, but the truth is that for the most part, the visitors were never really a threat. They can certainly no longer be described as title contenders. Arsenal going to Old Trafford feels a bit like Aston Villa coming to the E******s. The visiting team are not on the same level, an away win a possibility, but rarely expected. The Gunners have fallen from grace, the height of their ambition the pot of money offered by the Champions League.

Arsene Wenger told the shareholders at the AGM that if you are not in the Champions League, you cannot attract the top players. Eh? At times, there don’t seem to be many coming to the club these days, although the ones already there seem to be leaving. The standard of the team has eroded gradually, with the mix of over-reliance on potential and the prudent approach to the transfer market, with the likes of Xabi Alonso and Gary Cahill passed up as millions of player trading account cash stockpiles in the bank.

United’s opening goal was down to an individual error, as were Chelsea’s two goals against Arsenal a few weeks ago. Vermaelen is not having a good season, but it’s a huge decision to drop the captain on form, and frankly, who amongst the back up options is any better? Andre Santos, highlighted as the weak link in the build up to the game, actually defended better than expected, but his play when joining the attack reflected that of his colleagues. So many hit and hope crosses that failed to find a team-mate. Creatively, Arsenal were abysmal. Let’s not pretend. United let them have possession in areas where they could not hurt them, but the failure to penetrate determined defences that get tight to the midfield players is becoming a bit of a theme this season.

United should certainly have scored more. Maybe not the eight of last season, but easily five or six. Defensively, it struck me that Arsenal have not been the same team since William Gallas departed. He may have been an oddball with few friends in the dressing room, but the man could defend. It is significant that when Arsenal’s challenges for honours in latter years tailed off, it was often because Gallas was injured. Vermaelen looked a good player in his first season at the club, but he was alongside Gallas at the time.

The decline is painful, like Chinese Water Torture. Arsenal can no longer compete with United, who have not spent a lot more in recent seasons when their net transfer outlay and wages are combined. Certainly, their successes have been disproportionate to the gap in spending between them and Arsenal when you look at the amount of trophies they have won. Which indicates that Alex Ferguson gets more for his money and prepares a team better for matches. The decision of Ferguson to remove Tom Cleverly whilst Arsene Wenger allowed Jack Wilshere to remain on the field was rightly highlighted. I used to think United won more trophies simply because they spent more money, that there was nothing special about Alex Ferguson. I was kidding myself. His ability to freshen things up and evolve new teams is something he has continued to do. It is something Arsene Wenger only managed to do once really. He had two great teams, but failed to build a third. Ferguson has probably had four, and this looks to be a fifth in the making. The gulf in quality between the two line-ups was marked. It didn’t use to be this way.

I received an email after the game, asking “How much longer can this go on for?” I responded “Wenger runs the club, the answer to your question is - how much longer does he have to live?” I think Arsene Wenger, aside from stress, lives a very healthy lifestyle. I am only in my 40s, so I believe I will live to see another manager in charge of Arsenal. I suspect that might be after Jack Wilshere has retired though. It’s going to be a long old haul, with a good few more defeats at Old Trafford to look forward to in the meantime. Change is required desperately, but folks, I can’t see it happening. Stan Kroenke owns the club, but Arsene Wenger runs it. The board exist for the formality of ratifying the decisions of the commercial team, and wield no power in spite of their pronouncements at the AGM. The decisions that affect the direction of the club are made by the manager. The board’s focus is on making the club a tourist attraction, and it is no co-incidence that staff training is done by the same company that fulfil that role for Disneyland Paris. Football ambition is down to a manager who treats the club’s money as his own, and buys loyalty by paying his players and staff sums that most of them would not have a cat in hell’s chance of achieving elsewhere. It’s not a good use of money.

I’ll end with a bit of light relief, and God, do we need it. I was amused by Wayne Rooney’s post-match interview, when he used the term ‘late doors’, derived from ‘early doors’ to describe the closing minutes of the match. It’s weird how this ‘doors’ phrase to mark a passage of time has become a part of football language. And its instigator was the last United manager to put out a team against Arsenal before Alex Ferguson, one Ron Atkinson. That was in August 1986, and George Graham’s first league match as Arsenal boss. The Gunners won 1-0 with a late Charlie Nicholas goal in bright Saturday afternoon August Highbury sunshine. In the return fixture that season, Arsenal were actually riding high in the league – in contrast to United, but at Old Trafford lost 2-0 when an inexperienced David Rocastle was sent off. It was Ferguson’s first match against Arsenal as United boss. In a sense we’ve come full circle, except for one thing. Arsenal then were a team on the rise…


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174
comments

  1. Wengerballs

    Mar 25, 2014, 8:47 #48200

    "Looks like a busy summer ahead", ahahaharrr...how many seasons how have naive fans like you being saying that?

  2. Jason B

    Mar 25, 2014, 0:04 #48190

    Hah ha ha.If only. The man should've been sacked years ago.**** the stadium paying off bull****.Inspector Clue less needs to go .

  3. Bob

    Mar 24, 2014, 20:16 #48174

    10 players to enable us to compete with the very best is probably not that much of an exaggeration. At the very top level, it's about having a deep squad with 17-18 absolute quality players these days. Wenger has saddled us with a squad of players who, with few exceptions, are not of sufficient quality or character. That's why injuries to key players impact on us more than City, Chelsea or Liverpool. He needs to give way gracefully and enable someone with an appetite for assembling a team of quality winners to take the reins.

  4. John

    Mar 24, 2014, 19:47 #48171

    Haha ! Another keyboard manager! Stop wasting your time writing your crap as it makes no sense....

  5. Red Member

    Mar 24, 2014, 18:15 #48165

    10 players!!!! Ha Ha Ha. Not going to happen

  6. John Abrehart

    Mar 24, 2014, 18:13 #48164

    I agree with much of what you say Ian and the thing that depresses me is that we used to be a club that the game looked up to, we set standards and did things 'the Arsenal way'. Not any more, we have become a laughing stock and not just on the field of play. I refer to the Kalstromm debacle, the ineligible sub at BM, the raw kid as our striker against the Champions of Europe, who had not scored for the club at any level, the dismissals in the big games and the £1 over release offer for Suarez to mention a few. During transfer windows if it is mentioned in the press that we may be interested in a certain player, we seem to withdraw from the running as if it not the done thing to confront Arsenal in this way. Have we not possibly lost Mata, Hazard and Cahill this way? Such arrogance when compared to an earlier era when Arsene identified a target and David Dein quietly tied up the deal. It seems to be that the catalyst for our current demise was the 'night of the long knives' board meeting when DD and Nina were ousted. The old Etonian 'lock down' agreement ended and a sadly dying Danny Fiszman sold his shares to the Americans. The Americans started to run the club as a franchise and non-football people were put in charge of things they knew nothing about. Sad but true I think.

  7. Westlower

    Mar 24, 2014, 18:09 #48163

    @Malaga Gooner, Albert Einstein, probably the best attacking midfielder ever seen in a Bayern Munich shirt. So much brainier than everybody else in the Bundesliga. The Sun newspaper reckons he's reputed to be a distant relative of Albert Wenger, grandfather of our Arsene. True or false? The Sun wouldn't make it up would they? E =mc2, that is true!

  8. maguiresbridge gooner

    Mar 24, 2014, 18:01 #48161

    A busy summer ahead? not for wenger it won't, we've all been here before, forget what's needed it'll be two or three more of the same. The band wagon against OGL has started rolling Ian and not just after or because of our latest humiliation on Saturday, it's been rolling for quite a while and it's getting up steam (especially as OGL has employed a couple of good cart horses to pull it) as it's plain to see he's not up to the job any more whether some want to believe it or not, and winning the FA Cup is not going to change that. So i agree wholeheartedly that he walks regardless. Arsene has indeed done wonders for Arsenal and that can't or never will be denied and we're all grateful and always will be but the time has come for him to call it a day before the band wagon gets out of control. Good Article.

  9. BADARSE

    Mar 24, 2014, 15:20 #48154

    Yeah Malaga Gooner, you keep saying that again, and again. As Leslie Phillips used to say, 'Ding! Dong!'

  10. Ian Henry

    Mar 24, 2014, 15:20 #48153

    For those of who you think I am smoking something, I am not; I know full well Wenger won't sign 10 players see the last but one line of the final full para in my post) but he would need to if stayed. For those who think I am writing tongue-in-cheek, well yes and no. The only tongue in cheek like is the last one. To be clear, I think Wenger should go irrespective of the results between now and the end of the season and I have thought the same for years. The new manager will however still need at least 10 players, 3-4 additions and 6-7 to replace those departing. Other than Gnabry there is no one remotely good enough in the reserves who can step up.

  11. Man United Killer

    Mar 24, 2014, 14:43 #48147

    I sincerley hope this is meant to be nothing but a tongue-in-cheek article.Believe it or not but the quality of the players we have is not main problem we have-granted that most of them aren't title-winning players.Our boring indirect,unincisive, no-end-result style of play is our primary problem.All fingers point to the manager-he is tactically clueless,shambolic in the transfer market and downright arrogant-Does it get any worse?One of the main reasons Liverpool (mostly average players as well) are doing so well is how direct their game is.They create lots of chances and they are able to tuck it away because they dont have donkeys for strikers. *Wengers Arsenal-Never Contenders, Always Pretenders*

  12. johnnyhawleylovinggooner

    Mar 24, 2014, 14:32 #48145

    That is ten players and a new manager! A new manager and a marquee forward would be a game changer-as long as it is a top rank manager that is proven at this level we can push on. I always thought AW expects too much from players and does not seem to see the need to help them when things go wrong.Frank Mac CLintock stated that none of the present players would get into any of AW previous winning teams and wondered why he stuck with them for so long.hard to argue with that yet I do not think the team is as bad as that.it was AW who failed to have the team ready on Saturday and after his team talk been done for him it is really hard to take.I can only hope now we finish in top 4 and win FA cup and he goes with some pride,he deserves that at least.

  13. Man United Killer

    Mar 24, 2014, 14:27 #48144

    "Arsene Wenger needs to win all 10, or at worst win 9 and gain a face-saving draw against Man City next Saturday. Anything less than that and I believe he will walk away." if only wishes were horses... *Wengers Arsenal-Never Contenders, Always Pretenders*

  14. jjetplane

    Mar 24, 2014, 13:50 #48141

    MAX STIRNER you old anarchist you! Nicely said Ian and I think he needs to go sooner than later for his own good. Very frustrating that Arsenal as a club did not put the wheels in motion two years after Paddy put that penalty away. I feel sorry for him on the one hand but the other says that this man (earning that money!) has done little for the club over the last decade. For every good win or run of form from a player we have the traumatic dips in form and the incredible injury list which makes you wonder whether Jack, Ramsay and Walnutt have passed into Diabyland and there to dream football while earning excruiating amounts of Wonga-ga-ga ..... Only Swansea next ......

  15. Malaga Gooner

    Mar 24, 2014, 13:41 #48140

    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. (Albert Einstein) Ring any bells?

  16. JAMIE

    Mar 24, 2014, 11:17 #48121

    Liverpool have played a dozen less games than all the other top teams so they should have far more left in the tank. If Liverpool had played the same amount of games as the rest they would be about 5th.

  17. Kerryman Gooner

    Mar 24, 2014, 11:10 #48119

    We only need nine. Diaby will be back next season.

  18. Max Stirner

    Mar 24, 2014, 10:33 #48109

    Wenger is mentally gone, tactically inept, stupidly arrogant, inanely stubborn, he has become a laughing stock, when Gary Neville says what a great manager he is look for the suppressed smirk. Lets be clear, Wenger has no credibility now, he's like an old boxer whose slow and punchy, retire now Arsene to avoid more serious pain.

  19. Arsenal Fan

    Mar 24, 2014, 10:31 #48108

    Every summer we need players to replace the players who have left or not performing, but every summer Wenger falls short of bringing in the 2-3 players we need. Yes, we brought in Ozil last summer, but we also needed a quality DM who's not yellow card happy and quality striker. As hard working as Giroud can do at times, his finishing leaves a lot to be desired. I don't really know why the upcoming summer will be different with Wenger. It will only change if Wenger leaves.

  20. Ramgun

    Mar 24, 2014, 8:48 #48098

    On all known form, why do you think that Wenger will walk away from £25 million? As for Cazorla I wouldn't have that flat-track bully at any price. The fact that we need 10 players after all these years since 2004 means that the manager has not done his job and should go. It is as simple as that.

  21. WENGER OUT (thanks for the memories)

    Mar 24, 2014, 8:45 #48097

    Thanks Ian, you echo my thoughts pretty much. For the record I will be sad when Wenger leaves, I like him as a person and whether you like it or not, he's been the face of this club I love for a long time. I will also be incredibly excited when he leaves because change will definitely occur, good or bad. It would seem that the writing is on the wall now, so there's no point in knocking him further, I will focus my remaining effort on willing us on to the FA cup. Thanks for all the good memories Wenger and almost as importantly the bad ones - with nothing but good memories you'd be little better than a ManUre glory hunter - Au Revoir!

  22. Its up for grabs now

    Mar 24, 2014, 8:41 #48096

    If Wenger remains in charge you can forget it, you must be smoking something if you can even seriously think that he would bring in all those players. He will maybe buy one or two, loan a couple in and promote internally. That is what he always does, and this leopard won't ever change his spots. Remember in his mind it will have been a very successful campaign, if we once again attain our imaginary fourth placed trophy! He will state he can't compete against the financial doping clubs, so in a strange way it would be funny to see Liverpool succeed, where he has so consistently failed. That then would blow another of his and the AKB's arguments out of the water, as it would be the ultimate proof even for the most die hard Wenger disciple that their is a common denominator in our failures - Wenger himself! An FA Cup win would only mask over this reality, as nice as it obviously would be to end our trophy drought.

  23. Chris

    Nov 09, 2012, 20:06 #27907

    @ Canterbury Gooner & Gooner Fan - sorry to disappoint, but Arsenal's wage bill for year ending 2011 was 124m. The figure of 143m was for the year ending 2012. When comparing clubs, it's necessary to still look at year ending 2011 because not all clubs have released figures for year ending 2012. It really is very simple, if you take a moment to thnik about it......

  24. Gooner Fan

    Nov 08, 2012, 8:33 #27784

    Qualifying for CL is an overachievement? What a laugh! If Wenger failed to qualify for CL this season, you AKBs will most likely spout drivel like "well, he had us qualify for the CL for several years, it's okay, to not qualify for this one time or two...". @Chris: Arsenal's current wages are over £124 million, check your "facts" and stop your undying love for Wenger for a moment. As someone who supposedly knows statistics, that's shameful.

  25. Canterbury Gooner

    Nov 06, 2012, 23:49 #27706

    @Chris if you read Swiss Ramble's last article you'd see the wage bill is now over £143m.

  26. Chris

    Nov 06, 2012, 14:12 #27698

    @Gooner Fan - wages up to 2011 as per Swiss Ramble (millions of pounds): Man C 174; Chelsea 168; man Utd 153; Liverpool 129; Arsenal 124. Please, get your facts right, especially if you claim to have checked them. I don't claim to be a football expert as you will have read and I'm not even a financial expert. However, I do understand statistics and quite frankly don't care whether you choose to believe my credentials or not. The facts, that you like to ignore or corrupt for your own ends, speak for themselves. You are barking up a very wrong tree - the board is the problem and Wenger continues to overachieve. I like to see things presented in a balanced fashion and will continue to point it out when people just. don't. get. it.

  27. Gee

    Nov 06, 2012, 13:24 #27694

    Wenger will be offered another deal by the close of the season and of course he will sign it. Who wouldn't?? £7.5m per year with no pressure to actually compete and win anything. If Gazidis had anything about him (which he doesn't) he wouldn't offer him another deal and look to luring in someone like Guardiola. Heck I'd even take David Moyes - at least he looks hungry to win and compete and can actually organise a strong team

  28. GoonerRon

    Nov 06, 2012, 11:44 #27691

    @ Gooner Fan - if you take time to read my posts you'll see I'm not averse to criticising Wenger and he is by no means 'my messiah'. However, I do like balance and there is plenty on here offering destructive criticism without me adding too much more to it. You say getting into the CL should be the minimum requirement based on what the manager and selected players earn, however based on the facts I presented earlier regarding our OVERALL spend, finishing 4th, let alone 3rd, is an overachievement. @ Paul Heaton's argument is more pertinent in terms of do we get the best bang for our buck? It could be legitimately argued that this is not the case when compared to Man U. I suspect the key reason for this is their manager (who is probably the best manager that has ever lived).

  29. Gooner Fan

    Nov 06, 2012, 11:25 #27690

    @Chris: well, last I check Arsenal is fourth when it comes to wages last season, the likes of Newcastle and spuds spent less but finished just a few points behind us. That's pretty embarrassing from Wenger, especially when it took a dodgy West Brom keeper to help up qualify in the UCL. I don't know why you think Wenger huge wages and spending between 50k to 80k on bench warmers are "irrelevant", especially when you got a manager who keeps spouting about how the club should spend responsibly, while at the same time, bleeding the Arsenal fans with the highest ticket prices in the country and Gazidis gives himself a big fat bonus. Do you think the likes of Djourou, Squillaci, Chamakh, etc. are worth their wages sitting on the bench? If the answer is yes, then you're mad. I would like to believe you have "a statistically-orientated PhD form one of the best universities in the world", but I ran into a lot of Wenger apologists that claims they are so sort of footballing or financial expert. Honestly, I think you're constantly bringing up these "facts", because you know that more and more Arsenal fans are turning against Wenger more than ever since coming to Arsenal and you'll defend him to the end, no matter what.

  30. Chris

    Nov 06, 2012, 10:15 #27685

    @mark form aylesbury - I'm not spouting anyone's political agenda, I have done the research myself and come to my own conclusions. I don't find it very helpful you calling me an idiot, useful or otherwise, because you can't grasp the big picture. Actually, never having worked in professional football I do find my opinion on the football matters less persuasive than e.g. wenger's, so I do try to work out what he's trying to achieve than offer a post-hoc critique of individual players and decisions when things go wrong.... But I do have a statistically-orientated PhD form one of the best universities in the world so I trust myself to look at and assess those facts as well as anyone.

  31. mark from aylesbury

    Nov 06, 2012, 9:24 #27684

    Chris, Lenin used to refer to people like you as useful idiots. you are simply spouting the political agenda for the board who are building financial power at the expense of team spirit and trophy glory. Note how non believers are called stupid or they only have less than half a day in football. This regime could well fail in its current strategy it is afterall perfectly reasonable to link a 7 million salary to trophy hauls per season. Lets hope the visual black scarf days create some positive change!

  32. Chris

    Nov 06, 2012, 7:23 #27681

    @underschiever - I'm presenting the facts as they are. Yes, I agree that the team is not as good as it was in even the recent past. @Gooner Fan - in over all expenditure, we are fifth. In terms of wages, when I last looked, we were also fifth, but it's possible some recent figures may have changed that. Wenger's wages and what you consider to be the quality of some individual players are irrelevant. And the problem with Diaby is that he's a crock, not that he's not very good...

  33. Gooner Fan

    Nov 06, 2012, 1:15 #27677

    Overachieving my ass. With Wenger earning £7 million a year and the likes of mediocre players getting more than what they deserve like Djourou getting £50k a week and Rosicky getting £80k a week and I could go on, getting Arsenal into the UCL should be the minimum requirement. The fact is Arsenal has the 4th highest wage bill (go look it up), but as I mentioned the likes of Newcastle and the spuds finish just a few points behind us last season, and those team have less wage bill than us. But you AKBs keep defending Wenger no matter what mistakes he repeats, because it's obvious you'll never criticize your messiah.

  34. Paul Heaton

    Nov 05, 2012, 23:32 #27676

    @ GoonerRon, thank you and up to a point I agree with you. If we really have been the 5th highest spenders then, yes, in financial terms alone we've overachieved by finishing 3rd or 4th in those years. However, two of the points that I and others are trying to make are a) are we getting the best bang for our buck? and b) if we are overachieving by finishing 3rd/4th despite being the 5th highest spenders, then what might we achieve if we were the 4th highest spenders? As someone said earlier, despite spending +£200m less than Man City, Man Utd only lost the league on goal difference and yet when we spend a similar amount less than United we're miles off them and everyone seems to think that's perfectly natural. We might still finish 4th this year but even if we do it's Spurs, Everton & Newcastle that we're competing with these days and our spend is much higher than theirs.

  35. umderacheiver

    Nov 05, 2012, 23:20 #27675

    Chris, stop this bull. We all know there are "lies, damned lies and statistics". Anyone in thier rigjht mind can see that this is a manager and a team in decline.

  36. GoonerGoal!

    Nov 05, 2012, 22:59 #27674

    You want the truth? Kroenke, Gazidis, and Wenger are to blame for everything that is wrong about the club in its present form, but the biggest culprit of all is the parsimonious, megalomaniac that controls all matters concerning team affairs. However, I take solace from the fact that with the mention of demonstrations etc, the first signs of the long awaited revolution are at last beginning to appear, with little chance of more than 7 points from the four Premier League games in November; it shouldn’t be long now… VIVE LA REVOLUTION!

  37. HowardL

    Nov 05, 2012, 22:58 #27673

    Santos asking for RVPs shirt was the lowest point of an awful afternoon. To quote Jonathan Northcroft in the Sunday Times: "A blind-drunk beautician with dodgy waxing apparatus could not come up with a worse Brazilian. Seeing Andre Santos as Arsenal's left back, an office of such distinction when held by Ashley Cole, Nigel Winterburn and Kenny Sansom, feels somewhere between an insult and a surreal joke". Given the Schalke performance he must have been seen this one coming a mile off - yet the guy who is paid millions to see this clearly couldn't. Both of them need to go.

  38. GoonerRon

    Nov 05, 2012, 20:55 #27671

    @ Paul Heaton - good stats. Let's face it, it certainly shows a downward curve in terms of points gained. I wonder whether it has coincided with big money being spent which has made points more difficult to win? The fact I keep coming back to is that we have spent the fifth highest amount of money in the last 5 years and in that time we have finished third three times and never below fourth? Surely this has to point to the fact we have overachieved to some extent?

  39. Chris

    Nov 05, 2012, 19:24 #27667

    @Alexthegooner - LOL! I was wondering when you were going to come out with a "in all my 45 years of supporting Arsenal..." line! Look, the bottom line is that unfortunately in todays wordl, footbal sucess is largely dictatee by finances. Recently, Arsenal don't spend much - the facts have been posted here - but achieve quite abit more than they should based on that. We all have our own opinions about the football, although I'm not sure who the first game you saw was against and when it was are relevant (mine was vs Man Utd, at Highbury, 20 December 1980 - does that helps you read my football stars?)but I can state with total confidence that most of the time (I'll except the last four games) the football is in a different universe to pre-Wenger. THe ultimate test will be when Wenger is gone - we will be worse, unless someone like Guardiola takes over and even then we would need a financial revolution to succeed under his management, I'm sad to say.

  40. JollyJumper

    Nov 05, 2012, 16:46 #27651

    Kevin, your comment is spot on. All said and known for 6-7 years. @ Dan h, Post No. 30066, cc Santos and picking RvP shirt. You are right. If the OGL Wenger was a character, and we all know he is not, he should have grabbed RvP's shirt from Santos' hands and have thrown it into RvP's face, all in front TV cameras. Next, he should kick the f**king ass of Santos on his way out of the pitch. And by the way, what kind of a Club we became? How on earth an Arsenal player can behave like this? Simple answer = they are not briefed, not trained, not motivated, not ... nothing. Just remember Giroud and Coq throwing their shirts into public after 90min at Reading! Pathetic! Wenger = Le Grand Guignol OUT NOW.

  41. What was the point in leaving Highbury?

    Nov 05, 2012, 16:12 #27647

    Black Scarf Movement protest December 1st starting on the Blackstock near The Gunners. Change is most definatly required.

  42. MRMROD

    Nov 05, 2012, 16:01 #27645

    "Andre Santos, highlighted as the weak link in the build up to the game, actually defended better than expected..." Are you completely blind Kevin?!!?!!?! This was one of the worst individual defensive/ all round performances I have seen from any player in a very long time; and im not even going to start on the half time shirt swapping madness. This guy is not a premier league player and have been found wanting time and again. As for Arsenal, im sick to the back teeth of Ramsey being in the starting line up- he is not good enough and should be sold. A positive August/ September has come and gone and now we look very beatable again whose champions league 4th spot could be in jeopardy.

  43. ALEXTHEGOONER

    Nov 05, 2012, 15:09 #27643

    Chris. Firstly the players I have named were all brought in by wenger and none of them are capable of competing at this level; it's irrelevant where they are now. Other managers buy flops but are quick to get rid when penny drops whereas we keep them until we are forced to pay other clubs to play for them. Brilliant financial management. Secondly abramovich and chelskis first year of success was 2005 the last year of our trophy success- a hugely fortunate win against a superior utd team. Wengers previous 6 trophies did not have russian roubles or man city oil to contend with. I also remember a certain jack walker who threw money at blackburn rovers while Graham was around winning trophies. You and other wenger apologists continually point to financial figures to justify his success. I suggest you keep your head in those figures. Personally I prefer to judge a manager and team by the way they perform on the pitch. In 44 years of watching the arsenal- 1st game v wolves 1968- I have never seen such a spineless bunch. I have seen worse teams for sure but never such pampered over-rated and heartless players as these. George Graham had a far inferior set of players yet got them to play with heart and pride. These qualities are not evident in accounts and financial sheets. So please go ahead and write your articles pointing out how we talk bollocks. Please show the finances and percentages to prove your points. I'll stick to football which I do know a little about and I'll tell you for certain. Most of the players in our squad right now are not fit to wear the shirt and wengers days are well and truly numbered. It's only the accountants who show resistance to the truth.

  44. Arsenal fans get the club they deserve

    Nov 05, 2012, 14:30 #27638

    GoonerRon- I believe that 'one Arsene Wenger' was sung on Saturday in response to utd fans singing their usual sick song at our manager. Can't imagine that even the most loyal AKB would have found anything to praise Wenger about during Saturday's 95 mins.

  45. reg new

    Nov 05, 2012, 14:23 #27637

    quite sad to see wenger ending this way

  46. Paul Heaton

    Nov 05, 2012, 14:13 #27636

    Chris, I think we all accept that City & Chelsea, and to a lesser extent United, have spent miles more than Arsenal so let's leave that aside and just look at ourselves in isolation, and not in comparison with anybody else. If Wenger continues to do such a brilliant job why is it that between 2005/06 to 2011/12 our points total has been under 70 on 3 occasions and yet in a longer period of time from 1997/98 to 2004/05 it was only lower than 78 twice and didn't go below 70 at all? In fact, the 83 points that we got in 2007/08 would be the only season from 2005/06 to date to be in his top 7 points totals. Therefore, irrespective of how much we've spent in comparison to others, we are clearly not achieving what we were, despite the massive increase in resources at our disposal. In my view the move to the Emirates took Wenger's eye off the ball and he's now the club's chief accountant with half an eye on the football rather than the other way around. His hit rate on transfers over ther last few years has been woeful and surely if we really are hamstrung financially then it makes his refusal and/or inability to resolve our defensive issues even more neglegent? Many clubs with far less resources conceeded fewer goals than us last season. The truth is that he's a pale shadow of the manager he was and the evidence for that is staring us all in the face.

  47. Southgate Gooner

    Nov 05, 2012, 14:10 #27634

    @GoonerRon. Those statistics you put up were very revealing. What they show is that obviously we can't compete financially with the likes of Chelsea and Man City but then neither can Man Utd.Whilst our net spending is £200 million less than Man Utd, their net spending was over £200 million less than Man City but they still only lost the title to the last kick of the season and you always know they will be there challenging for the top honours. Remember in the first half of Wenger's reign we constantly challenged Man Utd for the title even though at the time their spending was greater than ours. When we made the decision to move to the Emirates is was so we could compete with the likes of Man Utd but whilst they have managed to keep up with Chelsea and Man City we haven't.Even though money is an important factor nowadays it doesn't guarantee success. You still need a manager who will sign the right players, play the right tactics and motivate the players to perform in the big games. What concerns me is the mentality at the club is that we just want to settle for being 4th best every year. That's why we end up losing our best players each summer.

  48. GoonerGoal!

    Nov 05, 2012, 13:43 #27631

    Just to put my pennyworth in. "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments. Enough said...

  49. Harold

    Nov 05, 2012, 13:22 #27627

    GoonerRon/Chris- Thanks for the figures but you miss the point entirely. One of the main grievances against Wenger (apart from non-existent tactics, embarrassing excuses and communist wage policy) is that he doesn't spend the money available to him. I've lost count of the number of times Gazidis has publicly stated that there is money to spend, and Wenger never disputes this, yet he continues to drag the club further downward every season with his obsession of proving the whole world wrong by winning the big trophies on the cheap. It was neccessary during the stadium building years but times have changed and our finances have changed. Unfortunately Wenger hasn't.

  50. ZB20H

    Nov 05, 2012, 13:06 #27623

    our points deficit in comparison to the eventual champions in recent years, 2012 – 19 points 2011 – 22 points 2010 – 11 points 2009 – 18 points 2008 – 4 points 2007 – 21 points 2006 – 24 points 2005 – 12 points 2008 seems like a golden age now.

  51. JER

    Nov 05, 2012, 12:26 #27617

    No leadership either on or off the pitch. Just what is going on with Steve Bould? He just sits on the bench looking glum. If the reports of a rift between him and Wenger are true then they had better sort it out quick. Lots of praise for our away support - yes they made a lot of noise but most of it was foul-mouthed. We should be above that.

  52. GoonerRon

    Nov 05, 2012, 12:04 #27614

    @ Arsenal fans get the club they deserve - in the spirit of balance I'd should point out 'the invertabrates' in the away end at Old Trafford also sang 'there's only one Arsene Wenger' on Saturday.

  53. GoonerGoal!

    Nov 05, 2012, 11:57 #27612

    And so the end of October arrives, and there is hardly any part of the club that doesn’t look in complete disarray, except for the moment at least; the balance sheet. However, given our present PL and CL positions, a “Manager” more than a couple of years past his sell-by date, the lack of quality of most of the players he has brought to the club in the past couple of seasons and the general lack of desire the team has shown over the past month, it’s almost guaranteed the balance sheet will not be looking so good within 18 months. Since before the season started, I have been predicting that we will struggle to make even a Europa League place this season, and after our worst start since the PL began, little I have seen so far has dissuaded me from that view. I expect us to gather no more than 4-7 points from the four remaining PL matches this month. While in the CL, a loss at Schalke seems an absolute certainty, but we might beat Montpelier at home. But you know what? I’m almost happy! Reading these comments, I am feel the long awaited revolution is beginning! But sometimes things have to reach rock bottom before they can start to recover, remember the last couple of seasons under GG? I am already in self-imposed exile from a club I have supported for almost 60 years, but I am prepared to suffer almost any humiliation, barring relegation, if it means that Kroenke, Gazidis, and Wenger are forced into an untenable position where they are forced to walk away from Arsenal forever, even if it means they walk away with their pockets bulging with £millions… VIVE LA REVOLUTION!

  54. billthered

    Nov 05, 2012, 10:49 #27610

    I really thought a few weeks ago we had a team to compete but the Norwich game told me quite a lot about the mentality of the side.Perhaps a lot of us are blind with regards to our club.I never thought I'd say this but we need a change fast but I fear it wont happen for a while yet.Steve Bould came in and the defence looked a lot more assured but he starts to get credit and our manager cant have that,you see it's him that should get credit no one else hence we now see a much more isolated figure sat next to AW who just sits there with no input.I said five or six games ago that we now wanted Bouldy to stand up and tackle Pullis,Allardice and the rest of the bully boys but now I think he has been told to sit there like Pat Rice before him and play the nodding dog.Well Mr manager what are you going to do about the gutless displays of the past few weeks after all is it not your job to motivate them.I would rather see eleven kids out there who understand what that famous cannon on your chest means.I am now dreading Tuesday night and feel sorry for my son who is making the trip to Germany.

  55. Graham Simons

    Nov 05, 2012, 10:45 #27609

    I think Chris raises a very good point. There's no point in hurling vile abuse at that bloke what used to play for us. It makes us look stupid - not him and it probably motivates him to play well against him. I do however take issue with giving him credit for not celebrating his goal out of "respect" - one season out of 8 and then sodding off is not showing respect. When he returns to the Emirates I would urge all gooners to ignore him - he will be expecting the booing of a life time. I say rise above it and concentrate on the "players" in red and white. They may be rubbish but they're our rubbish.

  56. Ron

    Nov 05, 2012, 10:19 #27608

    I suspect that the team was beaten before it even got on the transport (a plane?)to OT. They are so fragile in big games now and know theyre dependent on the opposition having a really off day if theyre to avoid a beating.This performance has been coming for some years though guys. The truth is that Arsenal work on the basis of beating most of the teams below the top 5 now to reach the heady heights of the CL places. This time, it looks like theyre going to fail to reach it. Its maybe for the besT. It will prompt change eventually and theyre now out of their depth even making up the numbers in the CL. They wont much fancy the trip to Germany mid week. I honestly dont think ive seen a more dispirited, frightened bunch of players in the shirt. Bad teams (a few of them!) down the decades for sure, but never frigtened teams. Its very sad really and Wenger must feel it surely. PS United werent and arent briliant. They never needed to be.

  57. Chris

    Nov 05, 2012, 10:08 #27607

    @Gooneron - yes thanks for putting that up - I have been thinking about writing an article outlining these figures to stop Kevin t al spouting rubbish such as 'Arsenal 3rd/4th highest spenders' or 'Man U spend only 15% greater than Arsenal's' etc etc. It's all b*llocks, as your figures show, and I would have expected FAR better of a published author like Kevin.

  58. Gooner Fan

    Nov 05, 2012, 9:36 #27606

    Whoever said that Wenger is restricted by financial constraints is spouting BS. At the AGM, the board mentioned that they provided Wenger with all the money he wants. Also, it's been reported that the club is sitting on a £70m transfer warchest, but Wenger's main priority is profit than challenging for trophies. Why else would he be spouting crap like qualifying for the UCL is like winning a trophy? Someone here bragging about Arsenal's wage structure when the likes of Newcastle have spent £110m less than we have and they finished just 5 points less than us. While the spuds, spent £30m less than us on wages but they finished just one point behind us. Err, I feel dirty. So, I wouldn't brag about our wage structure, because frankly, we've been spending so much on deadweights like Djourou, Squillaci, Rosicky, Chamakh, Santos, etc.

  59. Tony Evans

    Nov 05, 2012, 8:26 #27605

    Well said Kevin - I can't add anything apart from wondering why Chris keeps p*ssing in to the wind. Just accept Arsenal are going nowhere mate and then it get's a whole lot easier to deal with all the inept performances by the team and all the crazy decisions made by Wenger.

  60. Arsenal fans get the club they deserve

    Nov 05, 2012, 1:03 #27604

    Don't worry, when we scramble a lucky win against the mighty Fulham next week I'm sure we'll hear the invertabrates at the spacebowl sing 'there's only one Arsene Wenger' again.

  61. GoonerRon

    Nov 05, 2012, 0:11 #27603

    @ Chris / ALEXTHEGOONER - just to try and and some context to the argument, I've found the stats showing net spend from the 2007/08 season to present and added this net spend to the wage bills from 07/08 to the latest figures I can find which is 2010/11. 1) Chelsea £944m. 2) Man C £890m. 3) Man U £617m. 4) Liverpool £512m. 5) Arsenal £406m. 6) Spuds £311m. Now, the board and manager's appetite for competing can rightly be questioned, as can the extent to which we have spent what we have available and how effectively we have spent it, however the facts state that Chelski and Man C have spent half a billion each more than us on player recruitment in the last 5 or 6 years. Man U have spent 50% more than us in the same period and Liverpool 25% more. As I said, some of the flak flying is legitimate, but at a time when we've spent heavily on 100 year infrastructure, other clubs have seemingly taken a shorter term route to success.

  62. chrisy boy

    Nov 04, 2012, 23:45 #27602

    The club has gone stale, thats how i would currently describe Arsenal, a number of you again are asking for wenger to be sacked or to quit, thats only half our problem, we need a new direction and that means a clean sweep from owner, C.E.O and manager , and while were having a clearout get rid of the hopeless medicle team as well. Our great club is not only stale, its well past its sell by date !

  63. Chris

    Nov 04, 2012, 22:53 #27601

    Alexthegooner- five of the players you mention are no longer first team squad memebers. If you look back, all of the top managers have MANY dodgy players they have brought into the squad at great expense. Sadly, if we had not left Highbury, you are correct, we would not have been able to afford all fo the players you metion plus the ones that have proved VFM. George graham was not competeing on the same field as Wenger is (eg no Chelsea or Man C petrodollarwank) - I'm astounded we are still doing so well (as well as being sad we aren't challenging for the CL, as I have been for most of 35 years!). My theory (and none of us know what's going on with the finances inside the club...) is that Wenger is holding his fire and keeping his poweder dry until FFP etc mean he has a stronger position in the maekwt. I'm as livid as the next person that RVP etc etc were sold. But either he is maximising Arsenal's success in the mid-term, or he is constrained (possibly complicitly - I'm no character judge) in maximum financial revenue for the club (owner). In my opinion, anyone who thinks that he is incompeetment is sadly misguided. I'm not saying he's the best ever, but he is serious up there and toi get rid of him would be follY!

  64. GG89

    Nov 04, 2012, 21:51 #27600

    Sell your best player to the opponents because of the financial benefit and lose the game... Everything went to plan for Arsenal Ltd well done lads.... On the positive Arshavin sparkled a bit, Sagna and Wilshere are back.

  65. JJ Williams

    Nov 04, 2012, 21:24 #27599

    Wenger has made countless errors over the past 6 years and has to go... ovbiously. We also need a change at board level. Our transfer policy has to get with the times. We badly need a marqee signing to lift the dressing room and the whole club. We have to stop buying the likes of Podolski 12m, Giroud 12m and Chamakh 12m and put that money together and bid for the likes of Falcao £35M or an Aguero at £32M. I would even like us to put in a cheeky bid for Luis Suarez to fill the void left by RVP. We can all dream cant we? I think I need some of that stuff @Bob is smoking.

  66. nilz

    Nov 04, 2012, 21:19 #27598

    Well said ALEXTHEGOONER. Chris your argument hold no weight. Wenger should have stepped down when his famed youth policy which was the excuse for not winning anything from 2005-2010 went up in smokes with the sale of cesc. We cant attract the top players and we cant keep the ones we do develope. On top of that its clear from the players body language week in week out that Wenger is failing to motivate them.

  67. ALEXTHEGOONER

    Nov 04, 2012, 20:45 #27597

    Ok Chris you win. I stand corrected. Almunia, Fabianski, Denilson, Bendtner, Squillachi, Santos, Chamakh, Gervinho, Giroud, Vela, Park, Ramsey Vermalen are all top class players. Diaby, Rosicky, Djorou, Arshavin justify their lucrative contracts. Excuse me if I'm being specific. I'm so glad we left highbury to generate the added funds so we could compete with barca, madrid, manure, city and chelski. Wake up mate and quickly. Not one of the players mentioned would even make the bench of any of the clubs we are supposed to be competing with. The reality is George Graham won the same amount of trophies at poor restricting highbury on a tighter budget than wenger. The move to the glorious emirates has generated great income with which we are now competing with everton, newcastle and the spuds. I agree with you that wenger has been a great manager. Thats the problem he is a 'has been'. The players you say have been purchased by other clubs all hail from his 'has been' past and they left because they knew whatever magic wenger had has gone. Only wilshire will be coveted by other clubs. There's nobody else left. My theory is the move to the emirates transformed wengers focus from a football manager into an accountant for the powers that be. My point is simple. On purely football related options the manager has made a series of very poor decisions in the past 4/5 years. Spinning this into a fairy tale of a misunderstood genius who we should bow down to is deluded nonsense.

  68. johnnyhawleyloovinggooner

    Nov 04, 2012, 20:23 #27596

    my brother in law watched the match with three under 14 trained football trainers. they are man u to the bone, but they could not figure out arsenals gameplan when we went 2 nil down. they could not understand the lack of a willingness to win or even at the late goal how they could not give it a surge in performance. the sunday times give santos 1 out of 10 today. how many would you give the manager? i said i would wait 10 games well we are here. the 3 new summer players i like, the failure to invest the van persie and song money, is ,well i am stumped for words really,but this failure to learn from past mistakes is something no company can live with. the Hillwoods got rid of poor terry neil and the Don. why can't the board see the game is up .Arsene does not have a majic hat anymore.if our MD thinks it was bad a old trafford yesterday, wait untill it gets bad at the Chapman Arena,i hope he invests in a really good pair of ear defenders8

  69. Gman

    Nov 04, 2012, 19:01 #27594

    I liked the chants about Gazidis!

  70. SilverGooner

    Nov 04, 2012, 18:28 #27593

    What's the betting that Wenger sticks with Santos at left back on Tuesday evening against Schalke? Jefferson Farfan tore him to shreds in the last game against them so don't expect our useless and clueless manager to learn from that mistake!

  71. Nick

    Nov 04, 2012, 18:22 #27592

    How on earth, does Wenger come to the conclusion that Santos is a defender ?, yesterday was the 3rd game in a row that the brazilian has effectvively cost us a game, his presense totaly unbalances the whole defense, what is more Ramsey is not and never wll be a winger and is woefuly short of confidence and form, not picking walcott was a stupid decsion, i happen to think we have the players to mount a challenge if they are properly drilled and motivated, and played in their proper positions, i feel sorry for giroud who is starved of decent service, wenger is a deluded man who is arrogant in the extreme the shape and personel needed changing after the first ten minutes , that was obvious, even to a blind man who has never worked half a day in football, but he refuses to admit his master plan isnt working and as always does nothing in fact i was amazed he brought theo on as early as he did , but what he should have done was brought on jenkinson to play on the right and move sagna to the left, and then change to a 4 4 2 it may not have worked but it would have at least been bloody trying to change the course of a game that we were lucky not to have been thrashed in again, ive said it before and i take no pleasure in repeating it but wenger is tacticly bereft and we will see no silverware while he remains at the helm , i hope with all my heart im wrong but i doubt that i am .

  72. Life long gunner!

    Nov 04, 2012, 18:13 #27591

    Bob it is deluded fools like you that keep OGL in this comfort zone!

  73. Gooner1711

    Nov 04, 2012, 18:12 #27590

    @Bob - you are either a) deluded beyond the point of help, b) a **** or c) smoking way too much weed. If it is c) please supply to us all because your rose tinted glasses are amazing. Patent them.

  74. Bard

    Nov 04, 2012, 18:10 #27589

    Good post Kev. Felt too depressed to write or even argue with the AKB's. My take is that yes the board are a disgrace, yes Wenger has made some howlers in the transfer market but after watching the soulless performance yesterday I wondered to use that hackneyed phrase whether 'he's lost the dressing room'. Forget Santos, he's rubbish, but what's happened to TVM. They are just not putting it in for him. We go to war with Man u thats what we do. They ( Jack apart) just dont seem to care enough. Great managers dont stand for that crap, think Fergie, Mourinho heads would roll. Wenger seems helpless, at the helm of a sinking ship. He mouths platitudes but he doesnt get a response. TVM is Arsenal through and through but he's playing rubbish why? He's top class. Something is not right in that dressing room or on the training ground. We know Wenger wont be sacked so it's almost as if we need to sink into the relegation zone to get him to resign. I hate the Russian mobster but he'd have put Wenger out of his misery seasons ago.

  75. Michael Faulkner

    Nov 04, 2012, 17:51 #27588

    Tony Adams in an interview on Radio 5 this morning said that you won't win trophies if you keep selling your best players. How right he is. And he couldn't believe that Theo wasn't in the starting 11. Again, how right he is. He can clearly see the club going backwards, just like the rest of us.

  76. Dan h

    Nov 04, 2012, 17:40 #27587

    Chris we obviously have a minimal overall net spend but look at the wage bill 140m+ a year look at the squad quality.That is a statistic that highlights what a poor job ALL the management have overseen these last few years.Without speculating what player XYZ earn the club have more than enough to work with on those figures alone.The scouting system at the club still is very good Steve Rowley was recently head hunted by Mr Abramovich he stayed loyal to us.Mr Grimandi seems to have been used more to make final scouting judgements on players.OGL obviously has the final say on player purchases recently look at our recent French signings for example Giroud,Gervinho,Chamakh & Squillaci signed three of those absolute failures.Giroud a striker that thrives on crosses playing in a system that provides minimal crosses into the box?Mr Rowley in recent seasons recommended OGL to sign amongst others Kompany,Cahill,Mata & Cazorla all scouted extensively.It comes down to choice of the manager trust me we scout players for longer periods at times than other teams.Sometimes you have to pay more for quality but generally imo it does work out cheaper in the end.By paying smaller fees it seems we overpay in wages you then end up with players no one else will take off your hands.Higher end players even on better wages by reputation alone are easier to move on the belief that a player that has performed before can come good again!Anyway some good points made by lots of the comments today.

  77. Mark

    Nov 04, 2012, 17:27 #27586

    i think you are being a bit opimistic. we were clearly 2nd best all day and in every department. Arsenal have not been near to being on a par with ManU since 2005. this will finally be the season that the club and the manager's policies and strategies will come home to roost. 6th place at very best this season. If Walcott is an intelligent as he seems he will leave. Giroud is another Chamakh i.e. a huge error of judgement by manager.

  78. Sadeye

    Nov 04, 2012, 17:22 #27585

    The only thing that makes any sense to me is that Arsene has agreed to take all the flack for our poor performances over the past four or so years for some large remuneration later on down the road only he's been banned from ever saying so. Selling RVP was moronic. Had he been forced to stay and play another season he would have upped his game to retain his valuation and we would have been better off and the £23m we would have forfeited in the process is tantamount to what we've squandered in the proceeds. Arsene has to go, in fact he should have gone years ago and this season will be no better (worse) than last season and I guess the time we end up bellow the scum will be the last I can take.

  79. Mike Holmes

    Nov 04, 2012, 17:19 #27584

    I don't normally comment on comments, but JC "Wenger, please please please please go now. Dein and Usmanov in, and give us our Arsenal back" why would Dein (who no longer conducts business with Usmanov) and Usmanov in be 'giving our Arsenal back'. Extremely poor performance, Cazorla has not been able to make an impact on the last three league games, two of which were against teams expecting to be in the bottom half of the table. I would hope this is blip and not something that will be repeated. Podolski seems to go missing without the vital link up play he had with Santi at the start of the season that looked so promising. I'd like to see a new formation, I believe we have the right midfield, but there really is a severe lack of pace which does not suit the 4-3-3(1) or whatever we play. Ramsey on the right is obviously not working, and I know he creates less of threat to any left back then Theo will. Desperately need another striking option as there really is limit to the amount of game changing subs we have available. some obvious remarks I know

  80. Nozzer

    Nov 04, 2012, 17:16 #27583

    Yesterday was the nadir for me, all good things eventually come to an end. The fact that United were gutted at not having scored more says it all. It shows how far we have declined, Wenger can moan about financial doping bit in reality the money available to him with a few exceptions over the last five years has been wasted on players who are not of the standard we require. I am a season ticket holder and I will always support the Arsenal, I do not support what Wenger and the current regime are doing to the club. AKB's say we will decline further if Wenger goes, well we are not going to go forward if he stays.

  81. Fozzy's mate

    Nov 04, 2012, 16:41 #27582

    Chris, my major problem is as all on here know the lack of outlay and build up of the eurozone bail out fund. No matter how much MSS states give it another 2 years, with our current financial policy do we really think even more cash in the bank will change that? Do we actually think the club did not want to cash in on the likes of Fabregas, Nasri, RVP, Song etc? I agree with you that spending dictates things but why don't we spend what we have? I think Wenger likes the current status quo as he can drift on, while if we spent our resources he would have to deliver. What I don't understand is why we risk finishing outside the top 4 by selling our top talent year on year?

  82. Chris

    Nov 04, 2012, 16:06 #27580

    Annother thing, Alexthegooner - you are right that money needs to be spent wisely but if you spend enough, you'll win even if you spend it inefficiently.... You say Wenger can't judge players - then how comes these teams that are winning by spending more are buying players from Wenger for a lot of money, even when they have only 1 year left on their contracts..?

  83. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 04, 2012, 16:06 #27579

    Bob i'm just heading down the pub to meet a couple of mates let us know what you've been drinking.

  84. billdodgin

    Nov 04, 2012, 15:58 #27578

    All good points you make Kevin. I just hate this cold hard reality we face now . The only excitement we have is : will we or won't we finish top four ? OR can the team provide us with the odd bit of circus entertainment like the Reading game. I'm sure that as per last season - the possibility /probability of no champs' league is well budgeted for. You remember when we used to expect to win trophies- not by right , but by the quality we knew we had and could see in action regularly on the pitch. Changed times. I can see us perhaps being told by the manager in due course that,after all, the Europa is also a trophy. We remain in 4 trophy competitions ( assuming our names are down for the FA cup), and to be fair some of the other Prem results could yesterday have gone worse for us. BUT its this sense of hopelessness amongst so many of us at this stage that feels new. Do you remember some seasons ago when Wenger talked about a bad patch we were having as bothering us fans because it was like having sausages after being used to caviar? The bangers are pretty frequent as a footballing diet now for us. I'm grateful too, for the sake of any goal difference issues later on in the season, that man u didn't really go for it more yesterday. I note what you say about your age ,Kevin, and any prospect of Wenger going in the near future. Am quite a bit older than you and dread to think what age I will be . Everything at the club appears so fixed and stagnant,non-conducive to regime change. I feel very strange ,envying the likes of Chelsea and Spurs their capacity to wield the knife . If these rumours of AW and SB not getting on have any truth - that is the latest in a string of concerns about the former. All together now -- Good 'ole Arsenal we used to have a ball/ But with Arsene there we'll win **** all.

  85. Chris

    Nov 04, 2012, 15:52 #27577

    Alexthe gooner - you say that the team's plight has nothing to do with money but then go on to make an argument, based on finance but quoting incorrect facts, that Arsenal should be doing much better!! It has been shonw MANY times that success in the PL is very highly correlated with financial outlay, whether you, I or Fozzy's Mate like it or not. Five teams ave been speding more than Arsenal over the past five years, so all should be doing better than Arsenal. The fact they aren't shows how brilliantly Wenger is doing. The Chelsea example you quote, and the fate of Liverpool, both show that it's not easy and illustrate how well Wenger is doing! You can pick on as many specific examples as you like but the facts show Wenger is doing fantastically, especially as without him the amount of money availableto Arsenal would be FAR LOWER (stadium more empty or non-existent, no CL qulaification, no tranfer profitability)....

  86. Bill

    Nov 04, 2012, 15:46 #27576

    God i miss that August Highbury sunshine! Wenger needs to hear the message - 4th place is not a trophy, selling our best to our main rivals is unacceptable and winning every game is our "priority". Why? - because we are Arsenal. The talent and behaviour of our footballers is way below what is expected. Can you imagine Fergie settling for 4th? With regards RVP , i know its painful, but what he said re ambition was spot on. The guy wants to win trophies and he will at manchester United.

  87. Andy M

    Nov 04, 2012, 14:58 #27575

    Ramsey not good enough. Poldoski went missing. Santos has become a joke. Giroud needs service. Let Theo play central or let him go. And would it be too much to ask that those that wear the shirt do so with pride, passion and a willingness to put a bloody shift in. It's not as if they don't get paid well is it? I'm getting mighty pissed off with our attitude at the moment.

  88. Fozzy's mate

    Nov 04, 2012, 13:57 #27574

    An accounting firm run by an accountant and an economist for a dough trouserer. Account balance, share price and net assets figure are what matter. Everything else is immaterial. I'm not a great Walnutt fan but I believe his non selection is an attempt to force him to the city of pity who will in desperation fire another 10 million into our eurozone bail out fund. The aforementioned economist speaks as if the team has nothing to do with him. If only...

  89. ABW's

    Nov 04, 2012, 13:43 #27573

    Anyone but Wenger.

  90. Lcl49

    Nov 04, 2012, 13:41 #27572

    As long as we have a manager suggesting we could've won 11 v 11 when we were actually 2-0 down by then shows once more how deluded wenger is. How santos is even still in the shirt after his performance v shalke and the RVP shirt incident I do not know. Too many players not good enough....we've slated Walcott almost all of his arsenal career and now people say he is he saviour? I don't think so. Will get harder and harder to justify season ticket renewal

  91. Stevesam

    Nov 04, 2012, 13:35 #27571

    I believe that AW is only interested in the money. He has lost any desire to be the best and win trophies, SAF does not even bother with mind games anymore, he knows we are in decline. A simple example, at recent home games in CL, AW is upstairs having wine and dining with his Board mates, Steve Bould left to organise the team. Pre match warm up, just Steve out there ( other than that fool Peyton ) putting the players through the exercises, warm up finished, Steve goes off, players left to talk in groups, try a few shots at goal and generally have a laugh. Opposition still working, with a minimum of 4 coaches on the pitch doing different group warm ups. Game starts, on the bench Bouldy and ? Where are Banfield and Promo or even Terry Burton ? Not needed, clearly AW has given his instructions and why bother with anybody else. Look at any other top team / club and see how many top coaches they use. Bouldy rarely gets out of his seat as he knows it’s pointless, he has to follow instructions. AW is out of control now, if he was an honourable man he would see he has taken us as far as he can, with some memorable past success, and resign. Should have been straight after we lost 8 – 2 last season. Did he take the blame for that result, did he offer to resign ? Not likely on 7 million a season. There are 2 ways to protest without too much expense, if any, taken from successful protests at other clubs (Manure), we all start to wear yellow and blue, home and away. Yanks out. (Real Madrid) when we lose at home to teams like Shalke, we all wave white hankies, very effective and can be a visual protest that shall be reported by the media including Television around the world, which shall cause enough embarrassment to make PHW choke on his free wine and fine food ! @ Jude any comment on Podolski or Wally’s contribution ? They are claimed to be attacking players.

  92. Michael Preston

    Nov 04, 2012, 13:31 #27570

    We are a club in decline, with all pretences stripped away. We will see the occasional good result, some intermittently good individual performances, but the trend is clearly down and will continue that way until there is a radical change of some sort within the club. My own view is that it is the ownership that is wrong. It's an ownership that is based on US sports, where there is no relegation, where salary caps level the playing-field, and where geography means that in general there is no local competition for attendance. That ownership will only change when either the value of its investment is seriously threatened or when it gets an offer that it can't refuse.

  93. Bob

    Nov 04, 2012, 13:18 #27569

    In arsene we trust! Keep the faith fellow gooners. Santos will settle with a few games under his belt and Ramsey needs match fitness. We can still win the league and Wenger will do it like he has before!

  94. Jamie Hunter

    Nov 04, 2012, 13:17 #27568

    The saddest thing I saw yesterday was Fergie's interview. he seemed genuinely disappointed that we went up there and gave THAT much of an easy game. Its Arsenal (post 2004) all over;Even I, a massive Wenger-out merchant, thought we'd cracked it. The performances at City and Liverpool, Stoke even, really had me thinking this was the team we'd been waiting for. Even the Chelsea game had the feel more of a bad day at the office. But nope, its the same old story. We look like anyone willing to put in the effort could rip us to pieces at the back any time, and up front, well its a joke. We've played this boring tippy tappy crap for years now, but this team have really taken it to a new level. Take out that crazy Reading game, and in the last 5 matches, I think we've had a TOTAL of about 6 shots on target!!! Considering across those matches we've probably had about 65% possession, that tells me something is SERIOUSLY wrong. Wenger ran out of ideas a long time ago, and the board need to act quickly to bring is back to life. Its coming to something when I and a good few other gooners would KILL for David Moyes! But I'm wasting energy even writing this, aren't I? He could get us relegated and as long as the bank balance was ok he'd keep his job. Shameful.

  95. GaryFootscrayAustralia

    Nov 04, 2012, 13:01 #27567

    Like Villa coming to Ashburton Grove....except Villa won at the grove two seasons ago, which was a particularly unhappy affair. Your Villa reference is relevant though, as what's happened at that club could represent The Ghost of Arsenal Future - if those in a position of influence and direction at The Arsenal don't pull their sock up sharpish...

  96. ALEXTHEGOONER

    Nov 04, 2012, 12:59 #27566

    Chris your analysis of money spent on points gained is a ludicrous clutch at a very slippery straw. The current stagnation of our teams performance almost on a game to game basis is not based on finance and the attempts of wenger apologists to reduce it thus is frankly laughable. Of course 3 other teams have a greater financial capability. That does not make us paupers. We have relatively huge resources available which have been wasted. The squad has been overcrowded with average players consuming the 3rd/4th highest wage bill in the country and probably 5th/6th in Europe. The malaise lies in the football decision making of the manager. We had the resources to buy alonso,cahill, mata, lloris, dembele etc. The list is a long one. Instead he told us he didn't want to 'kill' denilson. He told us vela was world class finisher.; Almunia and fabianski were world class keepers. Bendtner was a quality stiker who would prove everybody wrong etc. Again we could go on a long time but you get my drift. The managers judgement on players was once incisive and at times inspirational. The past 4/5 years it has been woeful. Money has to be spent wisely regardless of how much you have. Do you think city would win anything if they bought average players? By the way Chelski were highest or 2nd highest spenders last year and came 6th. Stop playing the financial card. Our problems are about football.

  97. JollyJumper

    Nov 04, 2012, 12:49 #27565

    Wenger = Le Grand Guignol OUT NOW. No, sorry 6 years ago.

  98. Nutty's RIght Peg

    Nov 04, 2012, 12:12 #27564

    From around 87 to probably a couple of seasons ago, I always felt a visit to Old Traford had me feeling we had a decent chance of turning them over however decent a side they might have had, we always had the quality, pace, power, organisation, and belief, and on several occasions it worked out in our favour. Anyone out there see any of those qualities yesterday. ?? No, me neither. It felt like a lower league side playing us at The Grove, a Plymouth Argyle type side,only looking to keep in the game for as long as possible, damage limitations stuff. There used to be a football club over there.

  99. Simon f

    Nov 04, 2012, 12:11 #27563

    Sadness!!! In some ways I can cope with being beaten by a better side. But when I see the opposition working harder without the ball and showing more determination in possession that sadness turns to frustration. Seeing santos take Rvp shirt at halftime says it all!! In the heat of battle one of players wants a momento. Apathy beyond belief reigns....

  100. The Judge

    Nov 04, 2012, 12:06 #27562

    Said for a while that AFC stands for Arsene's football club. With their focus on "financial value & balance sheet" the Board are missing the point that only success on the pitch delivers long term financial success through the growth of the global fan base. Time for change, can we have our Arsenal back....

  101. Marky mark

    Nov 04, 2012, 12:04 #27561

    What has happened to Diaby, this is his second injury of the season allready, we were told 3 weeks, that seems a long time ago, Wilshier needed to be taken off, but we had no one to replace him, as a result the inevitable happened and off he went, unlike Moanchester who saw trouble looming and reacted. Our squad is paper thin and we have players like Diaby and Rosisky, while being good squad players have spent most of their Arsenal, and in Rosisky case most of their careers injured. We cannot challenge with our squad, we are not challenging, do not believe Wengers hype.

  102. Resign Wenger Resign

    Nov 04, 2012, 12:02 #27560

    Fulham 2 goals, Stoke 2 goals,Braga 2 goals,Spuds 3 goals at OT this season.Arsenal 2 shots!!! pathetic performance,Pathetic team and managered by a Pathetic loser

  103. Alsace Lorraine De Totteridge

    Nov 04, 2012, 11:51 #27558

    We came on in the same old way and they saw us off in the same old way.

  104. Clive the Gooner

    Nov 04, 2012, 11:25 #27557

    Another no show at OT. What a dismal performance again, though not a surprise. We looked a beaten team from the kick off gone are the days of out playing Man U on their own patch. As much as I detest RVP for joining them I can't help but think he's right. The people running OUR club have no ambition and should walk away but we all know that won't happen.

  105. jjetplane

    Nov 04, 2012, 11:19 #27556

    Strangest thing is how Wenger appears almost estranged from football. When he talks it is so removed (arrogance) that such a notion has fed right into the team. Premiership football is becoming a dull spectacle by the week built on an American idea of entertainment. Wenger seems part of neither camp - a bit like Clegg, and just as pointlessly rich. Hearing both Graham and Adams assessing Arsenal you are just waiting for the pained laughter. They know - Wenger does not want to.

  106. Gavin

    Nov 04, 2012, 10:58 #27555

    Yet another pitiful performance at Old Trafford to add to the ever growing list in recent history, whether it be Premiership, Champions League, FA or Carling Cup. Since the club's main concern is the 4th place trophy, and are not really interested in seriously competing for anything else, then any performance or result at Old Traford would be seen as a bonus in the overall scheme of things, and not a priority. On another note, either Santos wanted rvp's shirt as he thought he was playing for them, or maybe he thought it would go better with the red socks we were wearing. The away kit is bad enough on it's own but if we dress like clowns then maybe it's no surprise we play like them. It's all symptomatic of the general malaise in the club.

  107. Wombledin

    Nov 04, 2012, 10:01 #27554

    Hill-Wood, Gazidis and Wenger shared a 700 quid bottle of French wine after, with Peter Hill-Wood saying "Oh not to worry dear chaps, we're only 2 points off 4th spot, which is as good as any 'trophy' what. Don't pay a jot to the riff-raff with their sentimental nonsense about trophies and silverware, we know better than that."

  108. 1971 Gooner

    Nov 04, 2012, 10:00 #27553

    Don't always agree with you Kev, but this is spot on. Never have I felt so disinterested in an Arsenal v Manure game. I didn't even bother watching the second half - absolute tripe. See also: QPR, Shalke, Norwich and so on. This team is approaching the early-80s nadir of the Neill/Howe regime. The fact we are being held to ransom by Walcott - a player who is average at best - says it all. Thank you Arsene for what you delivered between 1998 and 2005 - great teams, great football, excitement, ecstasy and trophies. Don't make me remember you as the haunted, burned out shell you now resemble on the touchlines. Bring in Pep, back him in the transfer market and let's have our Arsenal back.

  109. Chris

    Nov 04, 2012, 9:53 #27552

    Kevin - but that doesn't make any sense - you can't use that comparison to conclude what you have because if a team spends enough it will win the league, no matter how inefficient they are using that money. The team spending most will usually win. Look at Man City last season! And as it's a 'first past the post' system, only one team can win it and so all the other teams score zero.... Arsene isn't playing the same game for two reasons - firstly, limited funds mean he has to prioritise efficency (he's playing 'Moneyball' I'm sad to say) and secondly, he totally correctly prioritises CL qualification over domestic knock-out cup trophies. You may or may not be right that SAF is a better manager than Wenger, but couting trophies is not a way to demonstrate that becuase Wenger has sacrificed that for the good of Arsenal. He's hamstrung by the financial environment of the club he's chosen to stay with (thank god, becuase with any other manager we'd've been SUNK long ago).

  110. Rich

    Nov 04, 2012, 9:53 #27551

    Was expecting a few AKBs to post on here as they usually do after another honest article spouting the usual pro Wenger rubbish.Maybe they are finally seeing what the rest of us have seen coming for a long time. Club is in ruin on the pitch!!.

  111. Gooner72

    Nov 04, 2012, 9:35 #27550

    One word, shambles, if Wenger does not step down at the end of the season or is replaced pretty soon 7th trophy less year will read 8th, 9th blah blah blah, was Usmanov really that bad an option?, probably not, now we are stuck with a penny pinching yank who has no idea of what this once great club is all about, a CEO who talks the talks and sadly a manager who is well past his sell by date, it stinks!!!

  112. steve

    Nov 04, 2012, 9:28 #27549

    Good post Kev. As fed up with Wenger, Gazidis, and Kroenke as we are, the reality is that defeats such as yesterday mean nothing to them. As long as we scramble into 4th that's all that matters. They said as much at the AGM last week and on yesterdays performance the players are now buying into it too. Does anyone think Kroenke and co. will be losing any sleep over the performance and the result? None would be my guess. As fans we have to be realistic and I agree with Kev that nothing will change under the current mananger and owner. No amount of complaining will change that although we every reason too. I have been watching Arsenal for 30 years and I'll be there against Fulham next week KNOWING what it means to be a Gunner, shame that the club doesn't.

  113. Ali

    Nov 04, 2012, 8:47 #27548

    Last night's defeat didn't hurt at all because it was expected. If you want not be tortured by supporting Arsenal, lower your expectations and think like a West Ham, Fulham and Everton supporter (hope but don't expect anything).

  114. mark from aylesbury

    Nov 04, 2012, 8:46 #27547

    Agree with David, stop turning up at matches. Using multimedia, twitter / facebook groups organise stay away days. Otherwise its 10 more years of bloated non entity management wrecking our club.

  115. Gooner1711

    Nov 04, 2012, 8:41 #27546

    @Chris - what is your point? The bottom line regardless of points v money spent is that they have and look like a winning team/club. We do not and will not whilst the current regime is in place. We can all talk on forever, nothing is going to change until they all go. Simples.

  116. Seven Kings Gooner

    Nov 04, 2012, 8:21 #27545

    I hope everybody saw on MOTD Santos ask for RVP shirt at half time, RVP gave it to him right in front of OGL. There was a time when an Arsenal manager would have stepped in, given RVP his shirt back, subbed Santos after telling him he will never play for Arsenal again. This shameful behaviour is just another example in a long list of incidents on the pitch that now characterize the demise of our club.

  117. gordon

    Nov 04, 2012, 7:58 #27544

    The scoreline may say differrent but in a way yesterdays performance was worse than last season.If Utd had scored 6 no one could have complained.The gap between both teams was huge.This is not a great Utd team.Yet we are told we have improved this season.We havent. Cazorla is not the best player in the league we were told he was after the first 5 games .It tells you all you need to know about some of our fans want serial waster Wally Walnutt to be given 100k a week to stay.Santos is the new Comedy Eboue all week eveyone was saying he cant start v Valencia but stubborn Wenger wouldnt drop him.Ramsey is finished as a prem player.I said all along we ewill finish 6th this season i havent changed that opinion

  118. David Evans

    Nov 04, 2012, 2:18 #27543

    We all agree that today's performance and the season so far has been abysmal and any excitement or enthusiasm for the league campaign has already been extinguished. Where is the quality? Where is the passion, desire? As fans we need to find a way to voice our displeasure. How much more can we take? We need radical change now before its too late and nothing will change until Wenger goes. The board needs to know we will not accept this and remind the next bloke who unfolds an "Arsene knows" banner. Santos rushing to get RVP''s shirt at halftime speaks volumes about the spirit and ambitions of the squad.

  119. Gare Kekeke

    Nov 04, 2012, 1:34 #27542

    Full credit to Man Utd. The scoreline was very kind to us to say the least. We were poor, but then we always are at OT. At the risk of sounding like a parrot (to quote Wenger a few years ago) I won’t bother criticising Santos again as I have done it too often here in recent weeks. TV has been poor for some time and needs to get his act back quickly. There is plenty of good in him. I’m no Mannone fan but fair play to him for keeping the score down too otherwise it would have been another OT thrashing. This won’t go down well with everyone but hey this is an open church and if it’s ok for Gooners to come on this site and tell their fellow Gooners to f*ck off for expressing a negative view, then I’ll say this; full respect to Van Persie for not celebrating his goal in front of us. He could have given it large but chose not. And before anyone has a go at me for saying that, just remember what Adebayor did in September 2009 when he scored against us in a Man City shirt and how we all moaned and said what he did was wrong. With RVP, perhaps that played on his mind as well seeing the disgraceful behaviour of Chelsea fans at the Bridge last week when Hernandez goaded the home ‘fans’ after scoring Man Utd’s winner there. So now for us in the league it’s three defeats in five, one clean sheet in seven and officially Wenger’s worst start to a season as our manager and our worst since 1994/95. And if like me, your support of The Arsenal stretches further then the reign of Wenger, then you will remember what happened to us that season. It has been often said on this site recently that the fans who go to away games are the true supporters of the club and not the so-called moaners. Seeing as I was at the away end then I’ll express my mixed views on the away support at OT. The continuous rendition of ‘we love you Arsenal’ towards the end was fantastic but the vile songs about Van Persie was not. I have one word for the fans who sung those vile songs; hypocrites. They are the first people to complain when opposing fans sing those awful songs about Wenger but take delight to dishing out vile songs themselves. And no it’s not banter. I didn’t join in myself and I refuse to do so as I’ve have been subjected to vile abuse myself being black. The songs however about Gazidis were spot on. Kronke could be next. Up The Arsenal!

  120. Paul Heaton

    Nov 04, 2012, 0:30 #27541

    Wenger's time was up years ago but it's days like today that show just how far we've fallen. We used to go toe to toe with United and when you hear Gary Neville talk about those days it's obvious that, whilst maybe not exactly fearing us, they certainly had huge respect for us. When we go there these days we look happy enough to avoid complete humiliation. The truth is that their ordinary players - Evans, Carrick, Cleverley etc - contribute far more than our more lauded, and almost certainly better paid, equivalents. Even after everything he's won Ferguson still seems to strive for success with every fibre in his body, whilst Wenger seems happy to oversee a profit making corporation. Can you imagine Ferguson going 7 years without a trophy and then trying to persuade everyone that 4th was success ? Against Villa in the last home game of the season a couple of years ago the crowd was in open revolt with the club. It's time for more of the same until Wenger walks away in a huff bemoaning our ingratitude. Let's get Moyes who's done a brilliant job at a club that really is skint instead of one that just pretends it is.

  121. weststandlower

    Nov 04, 2012, 0:20 #27540

    absolute cack. not good enough. fearful this is the season this will finally fall apart

  122. why??

    Nov 04, 2012, 0:11 #27539

    No pride, no passion, no desire. My heart goes out to the 3000 fans that were at OT today. I question the sanity of any AKB who can make a case for the defense of that sh**e!

  123. Website Editor

    Nov 03, 2012, 23:23 #27538

    Chris - Since Arsenal moved stadium, Man Utd have won 7 trophies, and in the process, I believe have spent around 15% more on wages and transfers (net spend). So, by that reckoning, Arsenal should have won 3 to their 4. I am not judging by point per £. Using that kind of statistic, you'll be headhunted by Ivan Gazidis for a place on the board before you know it.

  124. goonergocarpfishing

    Nov 03, 2012, 23:04 #27537

    go please asap mr wenger

  125. greg71

    Nov 03, 2012, 23:04 #27536

    to the poster who promoted moyes why would he come to us ? fulham have never won at arsenal what price next week ? rvp has been vindicated and deserves a welcome for the return game.black scarf supplier anybody ?

  126. palmergooner

    Nov 03, 2012, 22:49 #27535

    Santos swapped his shirt with RVP at the break while Wenger looked on casually;that speaks volumns how the club has headed.

  127. au revoir wenger

    Nov 03, 2012, 22:35 #27534

    i cant believe how lazy this Arsenal team are when they lose the ball

  128. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 03, 2012, 22:28 #27533

    When you see old red nose remain in his seat smiling and laughing looking relaxed not up jumping about pointing at his watch berating officials (unlike ours) you know he's not two worried about the opposition.

  129. John Abrehart

    Nov 03, 2012, 22:18 #27531

    Summed up perfectly Editor. When we cast our minds back to previous encounters at OT in the Wenger era, games won by goals from Overmars, Wiltord and Abedeyour.........when we could genuinely compete as this level. RVP could be one of those players and his stated desire to move in order to win something is believeable, seeing that he allegedly turned down a bigger pay day move to Citeh, (who can blame him there?)One's mind goes back to the Clichy moment at Birmingham, the Chesney/ Koscielny moment at Wembley and Bendtner failing to control the through ball at the Nou Camp (well, Chelski got lucky didn't they?), among others. Having won something with us just may have given him something to hold on to and believe that he could do it again. Seeing him in a Man Utd shirt was just sickening and the 9/2 against him scoring the first goal was very tempting; I declined the offer, but only out of stubborn loyalty.

  130. Up4grabs

    Nov 03, 2012, 22:11 #27530

    Trapped in a traffic jam on the A406, not only could I not watch the game I could not even be bothered to listen. Just flicked it back on occasionally to hear commentators say how the game resembled a testimony and what good support we have... That's the kind of thing they say about Newcastle.... If Arsenal fans don't get militant soon we could find 8 yrs becomes 18 between silverware.

  131. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 03, 2012, 22:04 #27529

    Another truthful summary Kev at least we weren't humiliated could have been but weren't.Out played yes out classed yes old red nose was right when he said the score is not a true reflection of the game it could have been a lot more it was down to luck it wasn't.The usual individual errors occurred and yet again proved costly it wasn't as if they were tired.Jack was way off the pace and it showed and that proved costly more work to be done there it's a pity wenger didn't take a leaf out of old red noses book and sub him at least we'd have had eleven players on the pitch.At least mannone didn't make his customary mistakes and to be fair had a good game with some good saves but he's going to have to do that a hell of a lot more before he starts to convince. The mancs were clearly the better team today with individuals of more class and it's still not one of their best teams and your right Kev we're still not at their level it didn't used to be this way.And all this old fanny you can only attract top players if you are in the CL well where are they? maybe we'll see them in January.

  132. Any Old Iron

    Nov 03, 2012, 21:48 #27528

    A few weeks ago when things were go well, many were waxing lyrical about the state of play, and about Wenger. I for one stated his merits are many. What i've said many more times than that are that his flaws are far in excess. The least points collected at this stage during his tenure tells it's own story. Your time is up Arsene. Finishing 4th again will only beguile the masses, and will be reliant on the failure of others. We are an average side now, no more. Wenger out!!

  133. Trevor

    Nov 03, 2012, 21:33 #27527

    Dear Arsene: The Ramsey experiment is over, mate (especially out wide). I fancy my gran over him any day. What is your obsession with that useless tosser? Spend some money in January on some proper footballers, please. Very truly yours, Trevor (soon-to-be former season ticket holder)

  134. Fozzy's mate

    Nov 03, 2012, 21:23 #27526

    As predicted SAF pats his mate OGL on the head and thanks him for R 3 points. He was actually embarrassed at how easy it was considering how subdued and lacking in intensity manure were today. In a way it was a worse display than last year. I said today that Wilshere will soon be playing at Old Trafford and was not joking. I also agree with Kev that TV5 has been dire for the last 12 months since he started whining about playing left back last season. Well surely now with Gibbs having played his annual 5 games fatty Santos must be replaced by TV5 with Kos joining BFG in the middle? In terms of the last 3 league performances it really cannot get any worse. The clueless OGL truly is that. I also agree let's see the DDT and MSS verbally targeted next week.

  135. Jude Jolicoeur

    Nov 03, 2012, 21:20 #27525

    Hopefully Ramsey's injury keeps him away from the first team for a while. Wenger, thankfully, won't have the option of running him out there only to embarrass himself. We've seen enough to know that the boy has very little to offer, unless you value back passes and getting dispossessed cheaply. To think he almost signed with United -- would he get anywhere near their first team? Describing him as woeful is being polite really.

  136. Martin C.

    Nov 03, 2012, 21:06 #27524

    Fair point about Red Nose protecting Cleverley. Did the thought ever cross Arsene's mind to do the same for Jack? It's been one poor performance after another since returning from the international break. Away to Schalke on Tuesday? Really?

  137. enough is enough Wr

    Nov 03, 2012, 20:50 #27523

    Last season the board refunded the fans travel cost.They should do the same again.The scoreline was better but the performance wasnt.Now tell me again why did RVP leave?Wenger surely has to go.Another defeat awaits on tuesday

  138. GoonerRon

    Nov 03, 2012, 20:17 #27522

    Not good enough by any stretch. I think questions should be asked about the line up as we were clearly lacking pace in the side. For the last 5 games in a row we've got nothing going in the first half which really needs to be addressed at Schalke. I'd like to add that Mertesacker had another very steady game - its a real shame Verm and Kos can't get something going alongside him at the moment. Lastly, for all those saying we can't defend we actually have the best defensive record in the league having played what are probably 5 of the 10 most difficult away games. It isnt completely broken as some in here are saying, but we clearly need to find the right balance so we dont look at toothless in attack.

  139. Chris

    Nov 03, 2012, 20:14 #27521

    Kevin - it makes no statistical (or logical) sense to say that because Ferguson has won more trophies, he gets more for his money than Wenger. Arsenal under Wenger have gained more PL points per million pounds spend (wages + net transfer) than Man U, including in the last five years. Only one team can win the PL because it's a first past the post system. The ratio of points to spend indicates that given the same amount of money, Wenger's Arsenal would beat Ferg's Man U. Can I ask how you came to the oppostie conclusion? Is this another thing that you LIKE to believe without being able to back it up?

  140. david

    Nov 03, 2012, 19:53 #27520

    Stop showing up to the matches, it isn't going to change unless something dramatic happens. We are an incredibly average team with one good player, not playing walcott smacks of wenger the shareholder not happy an employee is towing the line. Wenger has become a corporate manager who can't field a competent team. American owners sums us up.

  141. Rob

    Nov 03, 2012, 19:39 #27519

    Great piece once again Kev. I wonder where all the - "Oh you don't like us ! Please go away" - brigade that manage an appearance after meaningless wins, are after this one ? Counting down the days to Gazedis's next bonus ? He is ! And don't kid yourself he isn't. Right from the off, this looked a team waiting for Utd to take the lead. It didn't take long and Vermallen has been woeful for the last 18 months and he was dire in this key - allegedly ! - encounter. But then he's not the only one. Wenger, Gazedis, Hill-Wood, Kronke - it's like the four horseman of the apocalypse on Holloway Road. I now only watch these clowns on sky in the pub. So I only pay for the Guinness. I'll take that. The thought of paying Wenger/Friar/ Gazedids's pay cheque, as well as subsidising the 'Syrup Man' from Colorado, is just more than I can take. One day, I will step back into Arsenal Stadium or whatever it is called. But only after these 'gentlemen' have long since departed. I am quite prepared to wait. But it will be along one.

  142. kenny

    Nov 03, 2012, 19:38 #27518

    A pathetic non performance but was anyone really surprised.Fergie treats a game v us the same as he treats a game v Stoke.The thing is Wenger has no shame and will never quit.We have at least another 5 years of this s**t.

  143. ianmac

    Nov 03, 2012, 19:32 #27517

    Fergie summed it up in his post match interview, "It was very subdued for a Man Utd Arsenal match, nothing like any of the games in the past." What he was kindly saying was that Arsenal are no longer at the level of Utd and not a main rival. This is so true. We are just another average mid table side going to Old Trafford expecting to lose but possibly hoping for a miracle and getting a draw. After the worst possible start this team were scared of being humiliated so tried to keep some possession without attacking with any purpose. I bet the team were quite happy with the scoreline and the fact it didn't get embarrassing. We are now only a big club because of a great new stadium, massive ticket, merchandise and food prices, 44,000 season ticket holders and longish ST waiting list. Unfortunately the team doesn't warrant the 'big'. The demise is a little like the Australian cricket team.

  144. Ando

    Nov 03, 2012, 19:29 #27516

    Brian Clough anyone? Walnut to liverpool done deal according to most Liverpool newspapers, that would explain why he is leaving him out and playing a tosser right mid.

  145. Treble Double

    Nov 03, 2012, 19:24 #27515

    Big shout out to the travelling support today, they were superb right to the end, just as they were at Reading. Our away support has to be up there with the best travelling fans in the league. They made me proud to be a Gooner, shame the same cant be said of the team. We had more points last season at the same stage than this. Enough said!

  146. i'm a gooner get me out of here

    Nov 03, 2012, 19:21 #27514

    Take no notice of the scoreline.It was like watching Fraudley Harrison v Muhammed Ali at his peak.Our first shot to test DeGea was in time added on.All are outfield players were poor.But dont worry the AKBs have the 7-5 to live off till the end of the season.Wally Walnutt coming on made no difference at all.

  147. jj

    Nov 03, 2012, 19:15 #27513

    15 points in 10 games is very average. Very also-ran. I would rather lose 5-0 than hold on to a 2-0 loss, as we seemed to do after Jack got sent off. I don't think I've ever seen an Arsenal team accept a defeat before by passing the ball around at the back when we should have been pressing forward.

  148. Simon

    Nov 03, 2012, 19:04 #27512

    If Arsene is to keep any credibility he will leave at the end of this season . We have been fortunate enough to on a couple of occasions to qualifier for the Champions League , which itself is a joke , take our group for example every year the same type of average team turn up . I am bored rigid pass pass pass pass and pass again . I cannot see us winning anything anymore with Arsene in charge , not to mention the season ticket prices are obscene beyond belief . We are and have been taken advantage of like no supporters before . David Moyes come on down .

  149. arsenal1

    Nov 03, 2012, 19:00 #27511

    Arsenal is now an ordinary team in the EPL. With average players like Santos, Ramsey, Gervinho, Giroud, Diaby you cannot challenge for the title. Just compare the forwards with Man U. Rooney, RVP, Hernandez and Welbeck against Giroud, Chamakh. Clearly explains the difference between a team which is playing for title and the other which is 'definately' not.

  150. its getting worse not better

    Nov 03, 2012, 19:00 #27510

    Very easy home win.We were never in the game for one minute.Defensively we are shocking.Santos is sunday league level.TV has been poor for 18 months.Bould has not stopped the stupid mistakes at the back.Going forward non existent.In the games v Norwich Schalke and Utd we have not had a shot on target before injury time.Wenger Out Now

  151. Fozzy

    Nov 03, 2012, 18:57 #27509

    Sorry you remind everybody but we have a vital CL game coming up on Tuesday against that lot who took us apart ten days ago. Please Mr Manager, do us a favour and whilst you are sipping mint tea in the departure lought, introduce two players to each other, namely Fatty Santos and that new German bloke. If you are going to play both of them in the same team at the same time, please get some level of basic understanding so that they can cover for each other. Here's a clue - Fatty Santos is not very good at defending. Podolski needs to come back and help the poor bloke. Podolski has no way earnt his automatic starting position as he has become lazy. I suppose he's thinking that if the Russian Dwarf can get away with it, so can he. We need some sort of result on Tuesday. Today we did well to score nil and the consolation of putting the ball in the back of the net when it was far too late just made me even more angry.

  152. Angry & Frustrated

    Nov 03, 2012, 18:56 #27508

    Wenger lives in a parallel world, judging by his post match comments. Sad thing is he really believes his own rhetoric, and clearly thinks that whatever crap he spouts the rest of us will swallow without question. Final thought, how can any of us truly criticize RVP? From what I can see he was 100% correct in his assessment of where we are going, which is nowhere, whereas Manure will at least be challenging as he predicted, because they have a winner for a manager whereas we have Wenger!!

  153. DW Thomas

    Nov 03, 2012, 18:51 #27507

    Pathetic display. Wenger should step down as he will never change. Ego the size of Everest. Ramsey and Verm were terrible. No attacking sense, just bad passing and little movement off the all. 2-1 score looks way better than it was. Mannone was our man of the match! Wenger has no,tactical ability and can't build a team for anything. RVP looked almost sad for his former teammates. How has Arsenal come to this? A second rate team with a has been arrogant coach. So many of our players could care less.

  154. Website Editor

    Nov 03, 2012, 18:47 #27506

    J Arthur Rank - Fair enough. Changes made. 1987 was a long time ago and the memory isn't what it was. as for spelling, send me an email if you want to do some proofing. if it's good enough for the Guardian...

  155. Danny

    Nov 03, 2012, 18:45 #27505

    As a Arsenal fan, Today lose was expected. More of theses re coming. We really need to join forces and get this idiot out. I strongly beleive, the end will come, when Wilshire , the only player to wants to win leaves. This will break the people the back and demand the removal of the idiot

  156. @babakrdaemi

    Nov 03, 2012, 18:43 #27504

    Utd have spent a lot more than arsenal. Utd got £80m for ronaldo making the figure look smaller. Plus utd got RvP. A player we could not sign the other way round. It's not realistic to say Wenger does what he wants at the club. The only way to compete is to spend money on a level we don't have. I think we need to deal with it. I have lost interest in football, not because arsenal are not ambitious enough. Becuase ambition of a club is the level of investment of its owners. Without the Russian we would not be so far behind or 7 Yeats without a trophy. And Arsene would not be getting called out. Understand the new landscape of football and accept it or move on

  157. tony

    Nov 03, 2012, 18:36 #27503

    A 2-1 battering.We had our first shot on target after 90 mins on the clock.It was an abysmal performance the type we have come to expect from Wenger teams.Gutless clueless.The only player who can escape criticism was Manonne.TV Santos Ramsey and Podolski were the worst of the worst.Its going to be a long winter.If Wenger really does love the club he should resign NOW

  158. ryan

    Nov 03, 2012, 18:35 #27502

    Bit strange that people call for David Dein to come in and Arsene Wenger to leave - Dein brought in Wenger and would never get rid of him

  159. Peter Wain

    Nov 03, 2012, 18:12 #27501

    Teh problem is that all of the team went to manchester expecting to lose and the manager did as well. He knows we do not compete in these type of matches We can barely compete against the QPRs of this world. Our home form since christmas has been awful and it sould be no surprise to see us lose to Fuham.

  160. J Arthur Rank

    Nov 03, 2012, 18:10 #27500

    "...and weald no power in spite of their pronouncements at the AGM" It should be 'wield'. Get a proof-reader in. "...but at Old Trafford lost 2-1" We lost 2-0: get a fact-checker in.

  161. Stuart.

    Nov 03, 2012, 17:58 #27498

    Someone needs to remind Arsene that to win a match you have to put the round thing between the white posts that the opposition goalie is stood in front off. No prizes for having 70% possession or hundreds of passes around the midfield. Four attempts on target in our last three EPL games is not good enough and I put a lot of the blame down to his love affair with Ramsey. He offers absolutely nothing going forward. Towards the end of the game we won a free kick inside the united half, two goals down but three passes later the ball was with our keeper. Sums up our attacking mentality, I'm not saying I want to see continuous long balls but sometimes you just have to get the ball in the box and fight.

  162. Highbury Boy

    Nov 03, 2012, 17:58 #27497

    How is it that I who have never spent half a day in pro football could see that a fired up Wilshere (the only one who seemed to care) was likely to be sent off while Wenger left him on. Fergie reacts to events and could see that was a Final warning to Cleverley so took him off. There is no comparison between the abilities of the 2 managers even though I think Wenger earns more. at least the good news for Stan is that we have helped move United closer to the Title and that means more money for the VP transfer. Also Gazidis must be happy as Wilshere looks a ready made replacement for Scholes and what a big bonus that will bring him. Apart from Sagna all the other Arsenal players look very safe from predators. Sad when the only pleasure is to see Spurs lose.

  163. Big Andy

    Nov 03, 2012, 17:54 #27496

    I'm a life-long Gooner of nearly 50 and I'm glad we lost today. If a few punishing defeats and a mid-table finish is what it takes to get rid of Wenger then I'm willing to endure it. As long as this man remains in charge of our club we have no future. Hopefully, if our share price collapses then we will see the back of the American parasite too. I am so sick of this.

  164. jeff wright

    Nov 03, 2012, 17:51 #27495

    The result itself was no big shock, but the sad thing is that neither was our shoddy performance - or Wenger's pathetic excuses . I read elsewhere someone claiming that he says these nonsensical things in interviews but that he doesn't really believe them. If only. Lol

  165. Dan h

    Nov 03, 2012, 17:31 #27494

    It was a comfortable home win no suprise there it should have been more.Looking at other results again like many of us wrote last year us coming 4th may be as much about other teams weakness as our own.We really are a 2nd tier club in ambition but with a vast amount of dross in a 140m+ wage bill.The only real credit i will give is to the away support magnificent as always the club really take these people for granted.Glad to hear some chants against MSS spot on imo.Someone should have a word with Santos save getting souvenirs for after the game sort of thing you expect a lower league player to do in a cup tie.Will write again Santos should be nowhere near the first team & again the manager really has a blind spot about Ramsey hard enough place to go without playing players reasonably competent in their position.Cleverly should have gone but the result was sadly expected.

  166. SilverGooner

    Nov 03, 2012, 17:29 #27493

    I expected nothing other than defeat today so I wasn't too dissapointed as I have well and truly lowered my expectations where Arsenal are concerned. As you say Kev, the scorline was very flattering to us. We created absoultley nothing until Cazorla's 94th solo effort. Our best bet for a trophy this season is the League Cup so I hope our tactically inept manager is going to take the Bradford game seriously.

  167. Canterbury Gooner

    Nov 03, 2012, 17:18 #27492

    A good post but there're a couple of things I'd dispute with you. Firstly, TV was excellent last season and many pundits were saying he was one of the best CBs in the league. Secondly, Santos was at fault for the first goal as well for failing to block the cross. Wenger's line up and game plan was so predictable today and United knew it too (surprisingly...). They got their tactics spot on and we once again disappointed.

  168. Season Ticket Holder....

    Nov 03, 2012, 17:12 #27491

    Wenger is presiding over an utter shambles!!! How much longer are we going to put up with this nonsense......revolution is needed and NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  169. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 03, 2012, 17:01 #27490

    I see both Ferguson and Rooney are disappointed to have only beaten us by a narrow margin. Compare that reaction to what it would have been a few years ago. Another indicator of our decline to go with the ones the editor cites above.

  170. Perryg

    Nov 03, 2012, 17:00 #27489

    Please Wenger for the love of god GO, and GO NOW. Another piss poor performance at OT, no heart, no passion. Wenger should have gone years ago and he has destroyed his legacy at the club by staying on this long.

  171. Neb

    Nov 03, 2012, 16:59 #27488

    Well said. Couldn't agree more.

  172. JC

    Nov 03, 2012, 16:45 #27487

    Kevin, if anything this editorial is too moderate. Wenger, please please please please go now. Dein and Usmanov in, and give us our Arsenal back.

  173. Martin wengrow

    Nov 03, 2012, 16:34 #27486

    Spot on as usual, Kevin. Nothing to add really.

  174. Peter Wain

    Nov 03, 2012, 14:51 #27485

    Another awful display by a below average squad. How we finish in the top half of the table I do not know and neither does our esteemed manager. Non competitive as usual one goal in the 94 minute fails to hide a total thrashing which if United had taken their chances would have been as bad as last year. In fact I think the performance was a lot worst given that 12 months on we should have rectified some of our weaknesess. Sadly our manager seems to have lost the ability to judge players. Girond is the slowest centre forward in world football and not being blessed with pace he compounds this by not playing Walcott. How fatty Santos stays at the club is a nystery. Never has so much weight been so useless. Podborski was also ineffective and Carzorla now looks quite ordinary. Make the most of champions league this is our last year. With the transfer policy in place relegation looks more likely than a fourth place finish. Kroenke go now and tke the snake oiled slaesman and the manager with you.