Reading the Xmas Turkeys

Three points at the Madejski



Reading the Xmas Turkeys

Santi: Given space to run the game


If there is one thing about this season’s Arsenal you can be sure of it is that you never know which one you are going to get from game to game. You can have, on any given day, flair, determination or complacency. And sometimes a combination of two or even three within the same ninety minutes. We saw both flair and complacency at Reading yesterday evening, although you can forgive the latter when the lead is so comfortable. Assuming of course 4-4 draws are not a consequence.

There are two schools of thought about what happened at the Madejski Stadium. One is that the positioning of Theo Walcott as a central striker changed the team’s ability to attack for the better. There was a great deal of width, off the ball movement and incisive passing in the game. The other school of thought is that Reading were so bad that they made Arsenal look good. For me, the key thing was the space and time that were allowed to Santi Cazorla, who ran the game. Because the opposition did not get tight to him, they could not get a foothold in the game, and the Gunners grew in confidence. It will be interesting to see what happens at Wigan on Saturday and whether we see a disappointing display if the Spaniard is not allowed to be so influential. Did Bradford play that much better than Reading last week? My suspicion is that they were simply more determined, and concentrated on ensuring Arsenal did not break through and waited on opportunities to follow.

It will be interesting to see if Walcott is allowed a run at centre forward now. That his house is up for sale might suggest he has plans to move soon. Perhaps a private agreement has been struck that means the club will at least get some return on their investment in the player by selling him in January. It would be ironic if, just as he seems to be running into some kind of form, he did depart. The maths are as follows. He is asking £20,000 a week more than Arsenal are willing to pay. Over a four year contract that is £4 million. If you buy Zaha as a replacement, the transfer fee plus his wages will be considerably more. Of course, Zaha might turn out to be a better, more consistent performer. It’s a difficult one, depending on whether or not you have faith in Theo. For my money, he is worth retaining as an impact sub. But in footballing terms, he is nowhere near consistent enough as a starter. Last night he missed a one-on-one with the keeper at 0-0. Clinical isn’t the word for him.

It was a valuable win after what happened in the League Cup. Arsenal did what they should every time they face a relegation zone side and put them to bed. The goals were well crafted and demonstrated the quality there is in the team’s attack. However, there was no excuse for the first goal that was given away in the second half. The ball from the full back to the central midfielder across the team’s own half is too often seized upon by expectant opposition, and it needs to be cut out. The passer needs to find a closer team mate instead of putting the side in trouble. It was a horrendous lapse in concentration brought on by complacency. When Reading pulled back another, there were brief visions of St James’s Park and Phil Dowd, but it was thankfully not to be.

Arsenal saw the game out with a left footed Theo goal to relax everybody. If the team can use this as a springboard and put together a sequence of wins against relatively modest opposition until the Manchester City game in just under a month, then fans will start to feel better about the second half of the season. It is interesting that Arsenal, in spite of having played genuinely well only a smattering of times this season, are closing in on third place. What that says I am not certain. A lot of cheap points are being dropped by everybody outside of the two Manchester clubs I guess.

Still no news on the Boxing Day game. It will be a weird atmosphere at the stadium if it does go ahead, with maybe only half the crowd able to make it. Then again, a half empty ground might just be a portent of times to come! On that note, interesting to see the infamous ‘Arsène – Thanks for the memories but it’s time to say Goodbye’ banner make an appearance at the end of the match. No-one can accuse these boys of being fickle in their views on the manager.

The current issue of The Gooner will be on sale outside the away section at Saturday’s game v Wigan. It can also be bought online here. There is also an e-version of the issue available to read on your ipad/tablet/iphone/android. The app is free and you can download the first few pages of each issue as a taster before deciding whether or not to purchase the whole thing.


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171
comments

  1. Mathew

    Nov 22, 2015, 7:00 #79508

    Sounded like more of a Chelsea article on an Arsenal page, who cares were they will be end of season. Simon, what are the odds on Wenger recruiting someone in January, he doesn't believe in a winter window ! Challenging a title are for those who has enough big squad to rotate all competitions. We are out of Champions League and if Coq's injury is long term then we might start targeting an FA Cup again.

  2. mbg

    Nov 21, 2015, 17:15 #79496

    LEULZ, we've seen I all before mate, and you can bet we'll see it again. You couldn't make it up, wenger out.

  3. LEULZ

    Nov 21, 2015, 16:57 #79493

    This is what I love about deluded loudmouth AKBs like Simon Rose, Amos, et al. They'll give it the big bollox talk after just a few games of the season...but it literally took just the next game, to prove what a load of absolute cobblers Simon Rose and Arsene's army of A-holes talk. LOL. "Title challengers" that follow up getting bossed at home by the Spuds, by defeat at WBA. Hilarious. Like I said: if Arsenal are title challengers, then so are Leicester!

  4. jeff wright

    Nov 21, 2015, 13:50 #79492

    I don't know but as is pointed out in The Mathematics Of Football managers need to do their maths properly if they want to avoid disasters. It's not rocket science to work this out. " Managers not only need to have a sound financial head on them, they also need to pay attention to the finer mathematical detail as Manchester City’s Manuel Pellegrini found out in 2013 when he incorrectly calculated goal difference in a Champions League match against Bayern Munich. Manchester City had previously lost at home 1-3 and Pellegrini then told his team that they needed a 5-2 away win. When the score was 3-2, Manchester City then incorrectly believed they needed to score an extra two goals to win, when in fact they only needed one more goal to win 4-2." .... Hey, perhaps he was using Arithmetic !

  5. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 21, 2015, 13:48 #79491

    Alleged title challenges? jeff I have never said we are or weren't in a title challenge. Not sure many others have, but true to your negative stance you say things to suit you and make things up.

  6. Badarse

    Nov 21, 2015, 12:27 #79489

    Was the Challenger disaster due to poor mathematics?

  7. jeff wright

    Nov 21, 2015, 12:14 #79488

    Amos,just more nonsense from you again.Mathematics are used extensively in football to help improve footballers performances and of couse play a part in determining who finishes where in the league or who wins it - G/D as I pointed out before is decided by mathematical differentials . We won a title on G/D at Anfield one memorable evening long ago.I suggest you google:The Mathematics Of Football .Published by the Institute Of Mathematics .This explains various way in which applied mathematics are used in football.

  8. Badarse

    Nov 21, 2015, 11:43 #79487

    'The Oasis brothers?', as George lamented, 'They're just not very interesting.' He glanced sidelong at jeff and mbg-he had to as they were both lying down making imaginary 'angels' in the dust, and purposely burping to amuse each other-he smiled benevolently at them then shook his head, saying, 'Which one of them is the silly one?'

  9. Westlower

    Nov 21, 2015, 11:25 #79486

    Some odds that may change drastically should we fail to win at WBA. Top London club: AFC 1/25, TH 10/1, CFC 22/1. To win any major trophy 10/11. No trophies 4/5. AFC to finish above Man U 1/3. To finish above Citeh 6/5. To win PL 13/8. To finish 2nd 6/4.

  10. Amos

    Nov 21, 2015, 10:24 #79484

    I appreciate your quest for understanding jeff so just for clarity's sake I merely pointed out mathematics doesn't decide titles and is not needed but only arithmetic is used (and needed) both during the season and at its conclusion to determine the status of the contest at a given point. Badarse has picked up and helpfully tried to point out the absurdity of the exchange which is no less ludicrous than deciding that a challenge is only a challenge if it takes place on the last day of the season, 3 or 7 days before its end in April or November. Hope that's of some help.

  11. Alsace

    Nov 21, 2015, 10:23 #79483

    I think it's wrong to assume some sort of malignancy in OGLs position. If (a much younger) Patrick Vieira turned up in January and said, "I'm doing nothing, I could help" he might say, well that sound like a good idea, let's do that. That's what happened with Flanimal and also with Cech. He's just lost his mojo. He still does 90 per cent of the job well. Just not the boring but essential bit.

  12. Bard

    Nov 21, 2015, 8:52 #79481

    Alsace; wonderful phrase ' in theory'. i agree he could do a lot of things to improve our chances of winning or at least challenging but you know and so do I he wont do anything unless our situation is desperate. At present we are nailed on for a top 4 so nothing will happen. As one poster put it new signings Danny and Jack. I think the real issue is to improve our position to 3rd and then Stan can put up ticket prices.

  13. Alsace

    Nov 20, 2015, 20:34 #79478

    Jeffrey. Whilst of course you are right that OGL will screw it up, we do actually have Coquelin this year. If he gets injured or suspended then obviously we are screwed. Unless we reinforce and get cover for that position that isn't of pensionable age. OGL could buy a DM in January. By that I mean it is technically possible. In theory. If he actually wanted to do something simple and straightforward that would increase our chances of a win. Nah.

  14. mbg

    Nov 20, 2015, 17:44 #79473

    jw, nice one, your in with a shout of top sketch artist comedienne now yourself, we now wait with baited breath the return effort in essay form and in triplicate gobbledegook.

  15. mbg

    Nov 20, 2015, 17:33 #79472

    Exeter, nail on head, I guess he didn't mark his territory enough (if at all) and now a real sketch artist and comedian has come along, not all that hard to do either.

  16. Jason

    Nov 20, 2015, 17:29 #79471

    I have looked into my Wenger crystal ball and I can tell you now exactly how many new signings there will be in January, and who they are. It will be 3, and they are called Welbeck, Rosicky, and Wilshere.

  17. jeff wright

    Nov 20, 2015, 17:11 #79469

    Badarse , Amos and five other desperate men dying of thirst were trudging through an arid hot desert . Suddenly Badarse stopped and pointed toward the horizon: "Look there " he cried,his eyes bulging in delirious excitement , this usually only seen when Arsene Wenger appears on his TV : "There's an oasis with palm trees I can see the cool water glistening!" The other men looked toward where Badarse was pointing and one said: "We can't see any oasis ." "Now come on" gasps Amos: "The Arithmetic odds on Badarse finding water are good the oasis must be there ." Badarse grinning inanely crying out: "One and one makes three ! " He lurched forward and staggered toward the oasis throwing himself into the pool of water. The men watched him floundering about in the hot desert sand while screaming in rage and confusion: "Where did the oasis go I saw it , I did it was there , it was there! " One of the men replied:" It was just a mirage Badarse there was no oasis there and mirages vanish before your eyes ,just like that. Sadly Amos 's arithmetic just did not add up.

  18. mbg

    Nov 20, 2015, 17:10 #79468

    Bard, I think he's getting a bit wound up himself, like a few other wengerites not to hard to do it seems.

  19. Exeter Gunner

    Nov 20, 2015, 16:57 #79466

    Speaks the man who, when someone else has a go at a comedy sketch utilising characters from this site, calls it cowardly. Whilst his sketches are just fun and cheeky of course. Think there's some anger at having his 'territory' stepped onto as well.

  20. Badarse

    Nov 20, 2015, 16:16 #79465

    Tosh! ODD,(Oppositional Defiance Disorder), goes into overdrive!

  21. Exeter Gunner

    Nov 20, 2015, 16:03 #79464

    "Hope that's of some help" I don't think being sanctimonious and patronising is ever really of help, Amos, but you're not alone on this site in that regard. Hope jw's clarification of my earlier points has been of help to you though. I think we can all see what's really going in these exchanges - some are setting up a future claim of 'We always challenge for the title under Wenger and did again this season' even if it all collapses now, some others wish to pre-empt that claim.

  22. Badarse

    Nov 20, 2015, 15:39 #79463

    And the crypt door opens...So mathematics is solving the mysteries of the universe, yet is still struggling with the vagaries of the donut twins, jeff and mbg-a right pair of prime numbers.

  23. Bard

    Nov 20, 2015, 15:27 #79461

    Some brilliantly absurd post today. I think I have found the answer. Wenger has challenged for the title for over 10 years ( debatable but ..) and failed miserably to win even one. I think that answers the question about the success of his capacity to challenge. However while I was writing this I had an email from Simon Rose who brilliantly threw a spanner in the works. If you are losing 3-0 at half time and then score in the second half so that the score is 3-1 technically you are unbeaten in the second half. If in the following game you are winning 1-0 at half time and then go on to lose 1-2. you can say you were unbeaten for 90 mins and only lost one game timewise. This is what the AKBs are on about, relativity is god. As an aside Jeff let it go Amos is just having a bit fun winding everyone up. He no more believes the rubbish he is spouting than Wenger does when he says we are challenging for the title

  24. jeff wright

    Nov 20, 2015, 15:19 #79460

    Amos as EG pointed out Arithmetic is a branch of mathematics . It is not wrong to say that mathematics are used to work out who wins the league title as you are trying to imply.Regarding your query to mbg about why is Arsene involved the answer was given earlier again by EG when he pointed out that all of the obfuscation that surrounds the claims regarding alleged title challenges that Colesyboy and others , such the very irritating pseudo-intellectual Badass put up, are only yet more excuses to try and cover for Wenger's inept record regarding having not made any title challenges in reality since he last won a league title way back in 2004.

  25. Amos

    Nov 20, 2015, 14:46 #79456

    Where does Wenger figure in this mbg? Whether we or ManU or Leicester or City or Spurs are challenging, or their challenges add up (arithmetically), or what constitutes a 'challenge' isn't a Wenger specific topic and would be just as irrelevant whoever was managing the club.

  26. mbg

    Nov 20, 2015, 14:39 #79455

    jw, more deciphering to be done i see, the deciphering department are going to be kept busy, lets hope they have an Enigma machine although i doubt even it will be much good.

  27. Amos

    Nov 20, 2015, 14:32 #79453

    Arithmatic would most commonly only be used in error jeff while far from rarely used only arithmetic is used in adding points tallies and calculating goal difference. The arithmetic currently has us challenging, with others, for the title winning position.

  28. mbg

    Nov 20, 2015, 14:24 #79452

    jw, going against their messiah, that just won't do, it won't do at all, lets hope he doesn't find out.

  29. Badarse

    Nov 20, 2015, 14:17 #79451

    Some of these posts don't seem to add up, no matter how hard I try to understand them. Now doing that is a challenge!

  30. mbg

    Nov 20, 2015, 14:13 #79450

    If only the league ended tomorrow, what about another petition to have it reduced to ten or thirteen games, i'm sure there'd be plenty of backing from the wengerites, even old frosty himself.

  31. jeff wright

    Nov 20, 2015, 14:13 #79449

    Amos , Arithmatic is :The mathematics of integers, rational numbers, real numbers, or complex numbers under addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. Or Maths is also commonly used by most people Arithmetic rarely so. You have obviously not done your Arithmatic. . doesent quite add up as being a collegial expresion.

  32. Amos

    Nov 20, 2015, 13:46 #79445

    I thought this whole question was about scoring points EG? - but in any event it's still only arithmetic. Anyone heading the table is clearly in a title winning position as that's where you need to be in order to do so. Of course that can only be concluded if you are in that position at the end of the season or, at some earlier point, the arithmetic confirms that you cannot be surpassed. Until either of those points are reached you're merely challenging for the title, as opposed to winning it, until or unless arithmetic confirms that the challenge has ended. Hope that's of some help.

  33. Exeter Gunner

    Nov 20, 2015, 13:35 #79442

    Arithmetic is a branch of mathematics, Amos. This looks very like a poor attempt cheap point scoring - rather like your deliberate decontextualizing of your opponent's words. See example of stopping at jeff's use of the word 'thinking' above. And your shift from "It's possible to be challenging for the title at any time of the season" to "challenging to head the table" is noted.

  34. Amos

    Nov 20, 2015, 13:28 #79440

    I'm sure you will find that arithmetic is used to add up the points tally and determine goal difference jeff - mathematics are not needed. You can also use the same arithmetical processes to determine whether at any given point in the season a team is mounting a title challenge or not. Whether a challenge is ultimately successful or not doesn't mean that it hasn't existed at some point - whether in April, December, seven or three days to go or the last day of the season. Nothing has been concluded yet other than that we are currently, with others, challenging to head the table.

  35. jeff wright

    Nov 20, 2015, 13:01 #79439

    Nonsense Amos titles are decided by who wins the most points 3 for a win 1 for a draw nothing for a defeat . Or as I pointed out in case of a tie on points won for first place G/D is used .So mathematics are used to add up the points or work out the g/d. I suggest that you should wait until April as well before concluding that we are in a title race and not just accumulating points to ensure a minor top 4 place again.

  36. Exeter Gunner

    Nov 20, 2015, 12:58 #79438

    This looks almost a question of semantics. Personally I think the term 'challenge' in this context is bound up with a sustained effort. So currently, teams at or near the top are simply that - at or near the top of the league, not 'challenging' for it yet. I would use this term towards the end of the season if being at or near the top has been sustained. Wenger himself said talk of the title should be reserved for the last 6 or 7 games so surprised certain individuals are so keen to say we're title challenging now - they are certainly 'sustaining' doing so! I think what lies behind it is wanting to be able to say 'We have challenged for the title X times under Wenger'. X including being near the top at any point in any season.

  37. Amos

    Nov 20, 2015, 12:38 #79435

    Mathematics doesn't decide titles jeff. Arithmetic is used to determine who has gained most points at the conclusion of the contest. Arithmetic is also used to determine which teams are challenging while the contest is under way. It is encouraging to hear that you plan to start thinking in April though.

  38. jeff wright

    Nov 20, 2015, 12:28 #79434

    None is mounting a title challenge with 12 games played Amos because it's mathematically possible for a dozen teams to win the league at the moment.. Titles are decided by mathematics and not rhetoric.Points win titles or though at times G/D also comes into the equation as was the case with us at Anfield once plus City and United recently .A title challenge is when you are in with a chance of winning it mathematically at the end of the season if not then any title challenge obviously failed and became just an also ran place. That is what we have produced for donkey's years and from what I can percieve things will be no different this season .Despite having had chances to depose City from the top of the table we have failed to take them they have been under strength lately as well and have Aguero a the best striker in the Prem and the best midfield player Silva to return Our paper-thin squad dodgy defence and Wenger's lack of tactical nous hang around our necks like a dead Albatross . As I have said before I will wait until April the first before I start thinking about title challenges.

  39. Amos

    Nov 20, 2015, 10:04 #79430

    It's not that the questions aren't being answered jeff - you just don't want them answered. It's possible to be challenging for the title at any time of the season. Whether that challenge is sustained until the last day of the season, seven games before the end of the season or only until Christmas is just a measure of duration. Relatively few titles are decided on the last day of the season but if that's the criteria you apply then most titles are decided without any one else ever mounting a challenge.

  40. Badarse

    Nov 20, 2015, 10:04 #79429

    goonercolesyboy, firstly ignore the cowards-those who use daft names and then post in an insulting fashion. Secondly my opinion is that much disagreement comes from ignorance. To open that theme I am interested in words and their meanings-many struggle with this. The English language is enormous and most just use a recognisable few words, unfortunately they operate to a 'make do' with some approach. It leads to discussions and debates, descending into arguments over a word. A challenge. How can that be misunderstood? Yet it is conveniently, one might add. The motor leading to misunderstandings are generally from those who operate to an agenda-don't like AFC or Wenger-so will argue using those smokescreen tactics I posted of yesterday. Some may just not grasp the meaning of the word, or phrase used-ignorance in any sense. Leicester in years to come might talk of the year they had a title challenge which lasted for the first half of the season based on those results, or something similar, and only pedants would argue with that. Yes we may feel it will not/cannot be sustained and circumstance may prove us right ultimately, but until that happens it is a challenge-no more, no less, no matter how unrealistic the outcome may be. Two teams win their first games, after ten matches and they are still neck and neck, even after twelve-this is a title challenge. If it is maintained until one dips in form and loses ground it is still a challenge until it becomes an impossible objective. The concept of a challenge diminishes as the gap between the two widens. At some stage all will agree it is no longer one. People will arrive at this conclusion roughly at the same time but not necessarily a synchronised timing. Someone beginning from a standpoint of negativity, ie 'AFC won't win it', (even before the season begins), will want to yell, 'I told you so!', and spend a long time saying it, then crow if proven. That isn't conducive to exchanges as it becomes a 'gloves off' encounter, because one side of the discussion deals in reality and the other in an entrenched and myopic view. With fixed mentalities it is a waste of time discussing, just say what you want within reasoned sensibilities, and then only for your own satisfaction. As for the cowardly gutter snipes, just ignore. Good old Arsenal.

  41. jeff wright

    Nov 20, 2015, 9:42 #79427

    You are quoting from my post out of context Colesyboy while still not answering my questions to you. So for the last time,it's all rather tedious, if we are in a position points wise close to City with 6 or 7 to play we can then make a title challenge - if we do - or not do so - depends on the results of those games.If we have no mathematical possibility of winning the title before the last game is played then there will not have been any title challenge made,yet again. Simple really this,so why are you struggling to grasp it.

  42. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 20, 2015, 8:58 #79424

    84020. "At present it is too early to say we have mounted a title challenge we need to be close to City with seven to play before that can be claimed" So which is it, jeff? Seven, three or one? Even bojangles is confused.

  43. Bojangles

    Nov 20, 2015, 8:40 #79423

    The angry monkey Colseyboy (72 yrs old) wound down his car window... "Oih you muppet , yer bleeding mug get out the way... Wengers God that bleeding Pottercini's f'ing rubbish" the grandmother who seen many things in life did her best to ignore the oath as she crossed the road. Colseyboy (72 yrs) old suddenly got a vibration in his groin as his phone message went off.. "I know who that is, it's that bleeding %<>$! MBG in it!!! I'll show him I'll bleeding tell that Jeff as well....Colsey reached for the pills marked "take when agitated"

  44. LEULZ

    Nov 20, 2015, 1:01 #79420

    I takes it Leicester are title challengers then right? Hahahahaha. No wonder with deluded clowns like Simon Rose we are such a laughing stock! Been singing the same deluded tune for over a decade but the result will be the same: no league title, no CL. Plus ca change...

  45. jeff wright

    Nov 20, 2015, 0:03 #79419

    yep,very true mbg ,it's noticeable how Colesyboy avoids answering questions about the so called title challenges. I don't know why some try to claim that we have made them when Wenger himself admitted that there have not been any since we moved from Highbury.Badarse needs to stop reading books that he doesn't understand and to stop abusing others on here for expressing views that do not match with his own ones . These being anything that Arsene says or does must be right because he knows best. It's not surprising that he agrees with Colesyboy though birds of a feather and all that.

  46. mbg

    Nov 19, 2015, 23:59 #79418

    jw, don't spend too much time on him, (you've had him in your pocket long enough)like i keep saying it just flows over, round, or through his bonce.

  47. mbg

    Nov 19, 2015, 23:47 #79417

    jw, 84047, yes mate you'd be better off taking tracings of them and sending them away to be deciphered, one was bad enough but i see his mate colesoreboy is at it now too, so it'll take a couple of months before we hear back.

  48. jeff wright

    Nov 19, 2015, 23:30 #79416

    Just more waffle from you Colesyboy,here is what I actually said in that post: " Colesyboy,6 or 7 games to go is when we should be thinking about winning the title not after 12 played ,even Wenger himself said so a couple of weeks ago. If have actually make a challenge from that point on depends on where we are on the last day - that last day will be judgement day on whether or not we made a challenge or just finished among the also rans again. As I have said before if you are not in a position mathematically to win the title on the last day then you have not made a challenge . There is a difference between something that is theoretical perceived to be and that of something that is real . " Now it is quite obvious to any reasonable person that I said it depends on what our position is on the last day of the season being the deciding factor regarding if we have made a title or not. Trying to mount a challenge for the title is not the same as actually doing so . If we do take it to wire with City and it goes to the last game then that will have been a title challenge .The last teams to do that were City and Liverpool a couple of years ago. Claiming that we are making a challenge after just 12 played while Chelsea are battling against relegation just shows how deluded AKB thinking is.

  49. mbg

    Nov 19, 2015, 23:08 #79415

    Hiccup, 84046, nice one, post of the day.

  50. Th14afc

    Nov 19, 2015, 22:38 #79414

    John f- I think ur too kind about mourinho....he treat that doctor like that because he's a grade A n ob not because of his mental state...just mourinho been mourinho

  51. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 19, 2015, 22:37 #79413

    Re read your post 84020 jeff, in which you state, a title challenge, if we are close to Man city with 7 games to go then it can be called a challenge. So what is it jeff? Seven, three or one? Your question is irrelevant as to when we made a title challenge as you can't make up your mind what constitutes a challenge. Your criteria changes it appears to suit you, by asking others when we last made a title challenge. Even the Muguiresbridge can't join iin until you make up your mind or make up whatever you want to make up...no that's not cosmetics make up Muguiresbridge, that's jeff's persistently making it up.

  52. mbg

    Nov 19, 2015, 22:24 #79412

    SKG, 83999, it would be hilarious alright mate, but he'd be welcomed with open arms from the wengerites if their messiah thought it was ok and that's the joke.

  53. jeff wright

    Nov 19, 2015, 22:17 #79411

    I can make my mind up It's only a title challenge if we are in with a chance on the last day of winning it. If we are not then there has been no challenge ...I would have thought that this was obvious.. I see though that you can't even come up with one season since 2004 when we have been in with a mathematical chance of winning a title with 3 games to go let alone one... I was trying to be conciliatory offering that option - although I was sure we never have been in with a title chance with 3 to go during that period .I don't like kicking a man when he is down and out so I sympathize with your plight Colseyboy because you can't provide something that is not there. However, this just go to prove that these so called title challenges are just another illusion along with the European Cup ones .Best to stick to FA Cups Colesyboy - you are on safer ground there . Albeit not so long ago some on here were urging Arsene to give it a swerve .Not me though guv I was in favour of him going for it and got a lot of flack off those posters, or as in Badarse's case poser, for doing so. You couldn't make it up.

  54. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 19, 2015, 21:55 #79408

    Laughable jeff that you can't decide that a challenge is either one, three or seven games depending on your skewed thinking for the day. Make up your mind or maybe shall we make it another random number? I think you are making it up.

  55. jeff wright

    Nov 19, 2015, 21:21 #79407

    Well we know we have never been in with a chance on the last day for over a decade Colesyboy so I was asking have we even been in with one with 3 games left to play. Perhaps you can enlighten us,but taking account of your past efforts to do so I doubt it.Instead just more wriggling and avoiding aswering simple questions will follow -or you will disappear to watch I'm A celeb Get Me Out Of Here. It's only a matter of time before Spunky turns out in it,he's done everything else.

  56. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 19, 2015, 21:03 #79406

    Oh, hang on, now we are at three games left. Which is it jeff? One, game , three games or seven games? Confused on the challenge or what the chances are of making a challenge? Ask Westlower for the odds of a challenge? He would love to be your bookmaker, would retire to Barbados in a hurry with your inept mystic meg forecasts. Bit like your injury guesswork with regard to Alexis too.

  57. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 19, 2015, 20:50 #79405

    Just read what you said jeff, you quite clearly stated on many occasions that you have to be in with a mathematical chance to win the league with one match to go. Then you conveniently state that you have to be close with seven games to go to be in with a chance. So a chance is different to a challenge? Or a challenge is more than a chance? Or is it chancier to challenge rather than challenging the chance? Knots on your hankie are all over the place at the moment.And in true jeff style, your final statement underlies your smug ignorance.

  58. jeff wright

    Nov 19, 2015, 20:47 #79404

    Badarse your posts are becoming ever more inane , you knew a bloke who had a a mount called Challege -so ... %$^! Help! Reading your posts is like trying to decipher the hieroglyphics in Tutankhamen's tomb ... anyway squire just like your hero Colseyboy you also are struggling to understand the difference between actually having done something and that of having failed to do so. It's simple enough to understand that if we have not won the title on the last day of the season or are not in a mathematical position to do so then we have failed to challenge for that title. Trying to do something is not the same as actually having done it. Can you remind when was the last time we actually looked like or was in a position to win the title with 3 games left . Cue now for more Badarse undergraduate type trying to be clever and sarcy gibberish that is intended to be funny.You couldn't make it up.

  59. Hiccup

    Nov 19, 2015, 20:45 #79403

    Hi baddie. I even got to the end of your last post too! Less is more. Bard, Amos has a point. It's not how you start, but how you finish. Every time Usain Bolt runs the 100 metres and has it won with 20 metres left, he pulls up in those last 20 metres. Lo and behold, the rest of the field record a faster last 20 metres than Usain. The only difference is, AKB delusion doesn't take hold of these athletes who wouldn't dream of bragging that they outran Bolt for the remainder of the race. Thankfully, this condition only seems to apply to arsenal fans and isn't a widespread problem.

  60. Badarse

    Nov 19, 2015, 20:11 #79402

    Unleash the hound-and Hiccup appears. Hi fella. I know a bloke who had a mount named Challege-so did his mate. He mounted a Challenge but never got a ride. He said he liked the knockout stages of the CL and couldn't wait to get the first leg over, sadly he was too eager, and got both over at the same time, so he fell off. Looking up he did insist he had at least mounted a Challenge. Oh the man's mate was named jeff.

  61. Hiccup

    Nov 19, 2015, 19:29 #79400

    Must congratulate myself for getting through to the end of this article. So Chelsea are in a relegation battle? And we'd better believe it? Pulling clear of relegation is like swimming through treacle. And in the next breath if City falter and Chelsea win a couple of games they're in the title race? Give me strength! Looking forward already to reading this same article yet once again this time next year. Maybe there should be a trophy for this magic ten game mark you are so infatuated with.

  62. jeff wright

    Nov 19, 2015, 18:58 #79398

    Colesyboy,6 or 7 games to go is when we should be thinking about winning the title not after 12 played ,even Wenger himself said so a couple of weeks ago. If have actually make a challenge from that point on depends on where we are on the last day - that last day will be judgement day on whether or not we made a challenge or just finished among the also rans again. As I have said before if you are not in a position mathematically to win the title on the last day then you have not made a challenge . There is a difference between something that is theoretical perceived to be and that of something that is real . You have problems grasping this fact old chap. I suggest that you try and concentrate a bit more and stop slinging abuse about like an enraged Ayatollah giving giving a sermon to non-believers.

  63. Bard

    Nov 19, 2015, 17:28 #79397

    Excellent post Jeff. The debate really hinges on whether people believe that the club are intent on mounting a challenge. I have made my views clear on that one.

  64. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 19, 2015, 17:21 #79395

    I do like this title mounting challenge. Is it to be with one game to go as jeff clearly states, or maybe it is with seven games to go, as jeff clearly states? I guess it depends on how many knots he has in his hankie, eh Badarse?

  65. Roy

    Nov 19, 2015, 17:10 #79394

    Simon, no one is ' clearly challenging ' for the title after 12 games. That to me would be if we're still in the same position come Easter.

  66. mbg

    Nov 19, 2015, 16:58 #79392

    jw, thanks for reminding us of that fact again (and others)it does no harm at all to keep everyone reminded of them, as some have a very short memory.

  67. Wear Your Colours

    Nov 19, 2015, 16:34 #79389

    Simon, I am an eternal optimist and I believe we have a really good chance of winning the title this season. However, I do feel game 12 is a little to early to talk about title races. Most professional footballers talk about April or Easter as the time to assess if you are in a title race or not, hence, let's see where we are at game 32; ideally we will be top, but as long as we are only 4-5 points adrift with six to play, then I would declare we are in the race. COYG!

  68. jeff wright

    Nov 19, 2015, 16:23 #79388

    Amos,Chelsea built themselves a platform to launch a title bid in those first twelve games they still had to build on it . City were hampered last season by having players away at the ANC malarkey whereas this season they do not have that problem. City and ourselves have the same points at present and it's question of who pushes on from this current point in the season.The odds are in favour of City doing so because they have a stronger squad with players in it who have won the Prem and a manager who has also done so recently. They are likely to spend on a new player or two in January while Wenger ,well,we know only too well what he will do... Wenger's title tilts are really all about getting a Champion's League place he as not even managed 2nd place since winning his last title in 2004. Wenger is not going to spend the money needed to win the title Stan like a squirrel hoarding nuts in the winter, as got that cash saved up for reasons of his own.Trust me he will not spend it just to win a league title when he can make loads more cash anyway by finishing in a runner up spot for less spent .That's how Stan operates and Wenger has been well rewarded for going along with Stan's business plan and has also been allowed to try out some of his own pet theories albeit they have flopped or become outdated -he he would not get away with doing this anywhere else.

  69. Westlower

    Nov 19, 2015, 15:54 #79387

    Give yourselves a treat and look at our 16 year old Romanian, Vlad Dragomir on Metro.co.uk, football section.

  70. mbg

    Nov 19, 2015, 15:51 #79386

    jw, and hasn't been a pleasant experience either, but it certainly hasn't stopped others getting carried away.

  71. Amos

    Nov 19, 2015, 15:38 #79384

    Far from arguing against my original point jeff I'm supporting it. Chelsea couldn't have known that the substance of their title win was in the first 12 games of last season any more than the Arsenal team of 2001/2002 would have known that the substance of that title win was the last 12 games of that season. It's only something you can reflect on at the end of the season based on what those around you have or haven't done at different periods of the season. It can be a fine line as Ron points out elsewhere. An unbeaten season can depend on Van Nistelrooy's penalty hitting the bar. Similarly the 2007/2008 title challenge may possibly be seen to have turned on one game, the narrow defeat at OT in April of that year. A game in which we led, were dominating and playing confidently. Win that one game and we would have taken the title.

  72. mbg

    Nov 19, 2015, 15:36 #79383

    Your right it is good to see the chavs and Maureen where they are, and you could also be right not to wright them off (only a fool would do that) certainly not for the cup, no if there was one team to write off (no matter what position their in now) it's Arsenal especially when there's actually something to play for and the pressures on, thanks to an old past it manager.

  73. Tony Evans

    Nov 19, 2015, 15:23 #79382

    Thanks John. Dodgy knee ligaments eh? Reckon Charlie would fit in nicely with our sicknote brigade!

  74. mbg

    Nov 19, 2015, 15:06 #79381

    If we could finally have a commendable transfer window, and actually bolster our squad with one or two (only one or two?)choice additions, lol your still at it, even after all this time, will you ever learn and as usual your not alone.

  75. John F

    Nov 19, 2015, 14:43 #79380

    Tony,Hammers chairman Sullivan claimed that he would not buy Charlie Austin as he was injury prone and had dodgy knee ligaments, a claim that Austin denies.This might of put a lot of clubs off him.

  76. mbg

    Nov 19, 2015, 14:42 #79379

    And when was the last time you could write that title ? or anyone could say that ? (for all the length of time it's going to last) does it now suddenly make everything alright ? does it fook.

  77. jeff wright

    Nov 19, 2015, 14:37 #79378

    You are arguing against your original point Amos that Chelsea won the title last season after 12 games ! Again I reiterate you have to be in a position mathematically to win the title on the last day - that is a title challenge and not a run of results at some point. Most titles are decided by the games played at the end of the season - often on the last day. Unless of course that it is mathematically impossible for anyone to win more points than you have earlier on in proceedings - as was the case with United - when Wenger provided a guard of' honour ' for them when RVP returned as a title winner to the Emirates with 7 games left to play. At present it is too early to claim we have mounted a title challenge we need to be be close to City with 7 to play before that can be claimed - although these same players that we have couldn't manage to beat City for 2nd place last season when in front of City from that position - so I won't be holding my breath on them doing it for first place this season .The shocking results in Europe that we have sufferd and the one to the Championship side in the League Cup shows that we lack the strength in depth to sustain a title challenge and once again 3rd or 4th place or even 2nd will be a trophy if they provide the Champions League cash for nest term. Keeping that 200m in the club's accounts to boost Stan's shares is what counts at AFC.Wenger is happy to go along with that.

  78. Amos

    Nov 19, 2015, 14:31 #79376

    Surely a poor start adds to the pressure to improve their challenge more than relieves it Bard? Arsenal start few seasons with the pressure of expectation that they will win actually win the title. There are many variables in a season and whether a promising start fails to be sustained or a poor start is overcome can depend on many other factors.

  79. Ron

    Nov 19, 2015, 14:20 #79375

    re unbeaten for 49 Amos, i recall being at Anfield in the Autumn of 03 and witnessing a match which had it have been 4-0 to Liverpool at HT, justice would have been served. As it was we won the game 2-1! Recall feeling like AFC wouldnt and couldnt ever lose a footie match ever again after that. There was divine intervention that day or some thing close to it mate.

  80. Ron

    Nov 19, 2015, 14:07 #79374

    Hope it does Baddie. He seems an OK kid. He seems to be still at the wide eyed and overawed stage a bit i think.

  81. Bard

    Nov 19, 2015, 14:02 #79373

    Amos the missing bit in your argument is that the value of late runs depends on where you are when you start them. if you are nominally out of it then the late run makes very little difference. However that aside its reasonable to say that we are the best when there is nothing on the game and next to useless when the pressure is on. So to my mind it doesnt matter a hoot whether we are behind, in front or 'off the shoulder', you can bet your mortgage that we will funk it.

  82. Amos

    Nov 19, 2015, 14:00 #79372

    The basis of the 2004 unbeaten season was set up in the first third of the season. We've often since had better points tallies at the tail end of the season, last season being one of them, than we did in 2003/2004. There's not really a pattern to these things other than in order to win the title you have to pick up more points than those around you as consistently as the circumstances of that particular season demands. Whether you do so with a poor start and finish well of t'other way around - or anything in between.

  83. jeff wright

    Nov 19, 2015, 13:52 #79371

    Must also point out that Chelsea are NOT engaged in fighting relegation. This is a ludicrous assertion after just 12 games played and considering their squad compared to sides that will be trying to avoid the drop on the run-in . Many of whom will have to play Chelsea . We should be looking at Wenger's inability to beat Mourinho in 15 competitive games one played recently in the league rather than claiming that Chelsea are fighting relegation while we are mounting a title challenge.

  84. Badarse

    Nov 19, 2015, 13:41 #79369

    Amos your clarity of thought is so warmly appreciated here in my own little bunker-I call him Archie, (remember Greybeards?). It is so refreshing, but in complimenting you I am aware it will bring down wrath from the dogs, er sorry, I meant gods. Ron, your analysis of the difficulties facing Callum, or any developing defender who has to be grafted onto Arsenal's attacking mentality, registers with me buddy. It is another consideration in development. I am hopeful of the outcome with him; it's based on the flimsiest assumption that I have seen enough football in the kid to lead me to believe that it will come to his aid at some time.

  85. jeff wright

    Nov 19, 2015, 13:33 #79368

    No Amos wrong ,Chelsea did not win the title in their first 12 games.They changed tactics after those ones and dug out results for the remainder of the season .City put in a late run of wins to deprive us of second spot.Our fold up in those last 10 games doesn't give me any confidence that we will finish ahead of them. It would not surprise me if we end up fighting it out with United for second place this season.

  86. Ron

    Nov 19, 2015, 13:22 #79367

    I cant quite grasp this looking back and seeing 'where we won or lost it' etc etc. Its a misnomer and success or failure cant rest on one game or even a series of games can it? Its won at the last game or when its mathematically impossible for anybody but one team to win it at which point every other team knows theyve no chance of winning and can only lose it. Its a bit like the fabled '6 pointer'. Theres no such thing, its just footie speak.

  87. Amos

    Nov 19, 2015, 13:13 #79366

    Does a late run make a difference Bard? It can do and did in 2001/2002 when we won the last 12 games to take the title having been in 4th place just 12 games earlier. Our average points per game in the first 12 games would only have been enough to have secured 6th spot in that season. We've had them all, poor starts and strong finishes, mid season resurgences, good starts and poor finishes. Each season has its own dynamic.

  88. Bard

    Nov 19, 2015, 12:51 #79364

    Amos; a very good spin on the stats. The question is does a late and largely irrelevant run matter that much. If you are a 2 laps behind the race leaders in a 1 mile race does it matter much that you were the fastest over the last lap. The pressures are different and certainly less intense. In fact you could say you have nothing to lose.

  89. Westlower

    Nov 19, 2015, 12:28 #79363

    Chelsea couldn't have handpicked two better games for their next PL home fixtures of Norwich & Bournemouth. Six points guaranteed! It's the away game at the Lane in between that may determine their immediate progress. Win that one & they'll be on 20 points after the next 3 games with confidence restored. Man U are the fly in the ointment in the race for the PL title. Only 2 points behind the leaders & with a game at OT to come against Arsenal. The bookies have surely got it wrong with Man U at 7/1 & AFC at 7/4. Is our chances of success really 4 times better than the Mancs? I don't think so. If there is a top striker for sale in Jan, it'll be a bidding war between Abramovich & LVG. Arsenal wont be a player in a free for all auction - never have been. Klopp must have been assured of transfer funds, so he to will enter the market in Jan, presumably targeting German players. I will be placing bets on Man U to be champions at 7/1 & Chelsea to finish top 3 at 12/1 & top 4 at 7/2. I hope Arsenal will cause me to lose at least one of those bets.

  90. Amos

    Nov 19, 2015, 12:27 #79362

    Title challenges are mounted in or by November jeff - though not exclusively - but they aren't won until May. Only when they are won is it possible to look back and see where they may have been won or lost. Look back at least season and you can see that Chelsea's title was indeed won in the first dozen games. We out pointed them and everyone else over the next 26 games.

  91. Tony Evans

    Nov 19, 2015, 12:26 #79361

    Just picking up on Ron's thoughts re Charlie Austin. Anyone got a view as to why no Premiership club took a punt on him. Is he injury prone or something because if not I just can't understand why he hasn't been snapped up after banging in the goals last season. I wouldn't mind seeing him at Arsenal either, Ron.

  92. Seven Kings Gooner

    Nov 19, 2015, 12:22 #79360

    Ron : Good shout regarding CA - he might just convert a few of the many chances we fail to put away in most games. However my spies tell me Adebayor on a loan in January is just the deal Arsene loves - that would be hilarious! It's a joke fellas - isn't it?

  93. Mark T

    Nov 19, 2015, 12:20 #79359

    This is a joke, right?

  94. jeff wright

    Nov 19, 2015, 12:06 #79358

    You let the cat out of the bag there Simon when you said can our run last .Title challenges are not made in November,everyone knows that.If we are are in contention on the last day with a chance to win the title then we can claim to have challenged for the title. When were we last in that position before the title win in 2004 >? As someone pointed out Leicester could claim to be challenging for the title on points won so far... we were in a far better position a couple of years ago at this time at the top of the league with a points advantage and finished outside the top 3! So if you don't mind I will refrain from getting carried away and keep a watching brief on events.I have found out from years of experience with Wenger that this is the best thing to do.

  95. Simon Rose's doppleganger aka Bard

    Nov 19, 2015, 12:00 #79357

    I always say that the team that finishes at the top of the table at the of the season always wins the title and the one at the bottom gets relegated.

  96. Ron

    Nov 19, 2015, 11:51 #79356

    Ha ha. I wdt argue that jonny, but ive always thought Claudio Ranieri is a breath of fresh air and the irony of him getting the jump on Chelsea for the top 4 is mouthwatering after how RA treated him back in 03. What goes around comes around.

  97. Holey Moley!

    Nov 19, 2015, 11:47 #79355

    So Leicester are challenging for the title then

  98. Badarse

    Nov 19, 2015, 11:45 #79354

    John F, that was a good call, am with you on that one. I actually believe the Sours are a more concerning threat to us than either ManU or Liverpool. I would not be surprised if they qualify for the CL for next season. Bard, I have told you before, do not put your Weetabix in your mouth sideways-any eating habits of odd shaped foods ask Ron and myself, we are the Jubbly experts, and there weren't many of those I can tell you. Simon Rose by any other name...Rose, Rose, Rosie! Ah, time for a cuppa. Jack in light training-there is your January signing!

  99. Ron

    Nov 19, 2015, 11:40 #79353

    Hi Bard - more likely i suspect RA will sack JM if theyre in a mess at Xmas cue 'interim manager'- probably Ancelotti. Im not sure the type of top marque players RA would want are actually there anymore? Football is very stunted at the present i think. I hope Leicester stay the course and f--k all of the bloated, arrogant cartel over to be honest. That league needs a jolt and some romance and has needed it for years.

  100. John F

    Nov 19, 2015, 11:34 #79352

    Yes you are right Baddie it is all guess work.I hate to say this but I would not dismiss the spuds so easily either they have a manager who appears to know what he is doing this time round after nice but Tim,AVB , Harry and his dog provided such entertainment.

  101. Mark from Aylesbury

    Nov 19, 2015, 11:34 #79351

    Think I go with Westie's stats on this one. Plus a combo of Fattie Fab creating a player revolt ( more gossip Badarse ) and legs going Terry , Ivanovic (spelling?) UEFA champions league form will remain good as the players are already thinking of their next move as most will get snapped up by top European clubs

  102. Bard

    Nov 19, 2015, 11:30 #79350

    Whenever you post Simon I never know whether youre taking the p*** or whether youre the Forest Gump of posters. Apart from being a statement of the bleeding obvious your analysis of the Chavs is way off the mark. Maybe you havent been paying attention since the Russian took them over. If they are in trouble at Xmas he will pay whatever it takes to get players in. He is one ruthless and ambitious cookie.There is nil chance of them going down. As for your remark about us in the transfer window, I nearly choked on my weetabix. I dont know how many windows we have been saying the same thing but we never buy to push on. The deal is this we are moreorless guaranteed a top 4 unless we completely implode, its job done; so there is no need to buy especially if what we need costs an arm and a leg. If we get second or third spot the club can peddle the line that progress is being made and the ticket prices will go up. Yes we find ourselves in a good position but on the evidence of the last 10 seasons youre deluded if you think that that means we will be making huge effort to win the title.

  103. Buckfutter

    Nov 19, 2015, 11:29 #79349

    If we add sensibly in January...Ha!

  104. Ron

    Nov 19, 2015, 11:03 #79348

    I can see your thought process Simon. Chelsea s issues are off the pitch i suspect. Lets face it pre 2000 for decades they were always a daft soap opera in waiting. I can see them storming up the table too and yr point on keeping him there is a good one. Is he a great Coach or a fairweather one? We ll see wont we. Cant see them winning the title though perversely i can see them giving the CL a right good go. I think the clubs emphasis will go that way plus aim to scramble top 4. AFC can win the title though. City are never reliable and its in the Clubs DNA to stumble and flop by their own hand. Arsneals biggest flaw is the mentailty of the Club. So long theyve been happy to just be thereabouts and not winners. Do we have hard nosed winners in that team? I cant see any, but the PL is a mundane league now and never been so available for AFC to take it. Utd could yet win it even and i wdt write them off at all. As you say, theyre probably the equal of Arsenal and in my view, in crunch games id back Utd to prevail and not AFC.Its a case of how the cookie will crumble isnt it. Im not sure January buys will change much. Personally id take a punt on Charlie Austin to give us some added fire power. CA would relish it and give 200 per cent to such a chance. at 7 or 8 Million quid hes well worth a go. He seems a sound lad too and wdt it be good to see an english banging a few in. If he did the fans would love it. Arsenal would have a bit of a soul and some substance again. Its been a long time since we have.

  105. Badarse

    Nov 19, 2015, 10:55 #79347

    May be, John F, but we are just guessing. To illustrate this I have friends who reckon the fall out with Mourhino, Hazard, and the doctor was due to Hazard getting too close to the doctor, if you get my drift. The outburst was a result of frustration. I don't subscribe to gossip and hearsay as it is too convenient in closing down arguments or speculation-am only mentioning this well after the event to illustrate my point. Perhaps nonsense as George sang, 'it's the Devil's radio', but it could be true??? I would be very surprised if we buy anyone, very surprised, indeed. Thanks Simon. I tipped CFC to win the title-but they won't! I do think 'false' positions have become clichés, but CFC can lean on their resources to dig them out. A definite top ten finish, possibly knocking on the door of fourth place is my guess now. Arsenal? Well beginning from our financial position as many want to remind us, then we are a 'given' for fourth place before a ball is kicked. I happen to think our squad, contrary to some, is strong enough, and balanced enough to attain that with something to spare, so third or above is my optimum. I tipped us as runners up, and that still looks a strong wager. Champs? Possibly, you can never second guess a final place in the race even with one game to play-anyone remember Anfield 26th May 1989? So we may be able to sustain our title tilt, and CFC will almost certainly improve.

  106. John F

    Nov 19, 2015, 10:34 #79346

    I read in September that Mourinho's dad was seriously ill.He strikes me as a man who does not hide his emotions and this along with his objection to Cech coming to Arsenal could the reason why Chelsea are struggling.The treatment of the lady club doctor may be evidence of his current mental state and the effect it is having on the team.The big question Simon is If we buy in Jan and even who given the fact not many big transfers happen in Jan.Top teams usually strengthen from a position of strength and we failed to do this in the summer.Time will tell what affect the decision not to will have.Sanogoal is back in January so at least we can enjoy the ride and have a chuckle if he gets on the pitch.

  107. Westlower

    Nov 19, 2015, 9:09 #79344

    Chelsea's chances of winning the PL are virtually nil. The bookies will tempt you to part with your hard earned by offering best odds of 125/1 which equates to 0.8%. If Chelsea win all remaining 26 games they will have 89 points. Simply wont happen. Suppose they win 20 & draw 6 they'll be on 77 points. Over the last 10 years of the PL, the winners have averaged 87.4 points; runners up 82.3 & third 76.4. At best Chelsea may finish 3rd (12/1), more likely 4th (7/2). Arsenal chances are rated: PL winners 7/4; 2nd 2/7; top 3 1/28; top 4 1/50.

  108. Ocheme

    Nov 19, 2015, 8:37 #79343

    Chelsea are still coming to push for the Title come what may.

  109. Chris

    Dec 23, 2012, 13:35 #30045

    @Jaded Harold - I have not misquioted ro twisted the context of any statistics - in my opinion you are completely wrong about the big picture. The big trophies (PL, CL) have only been won by three English clubs these lasst 7 years. All of these have spent at least 50% than Arsenal over the period - we don't have the resources to compete with that and trying would probably only make Arsenal poor, not successful. As for 5th highest turnover - I agree that it's odd that we don't spend more given that, but I think that's a question for the board. The manager is repsonsible for using the resources available to him. There's no clear evidence iof unused resources anyway but as I've said before, allocation of resources to the future might make sense if using them now won't help very much. @Chris (32608) - don't agree with anything you've said, just for the record.

  110. Chris

    Dec 20, 2012, 20:14 #29967

    Points per spend? If you think that a measure putting us ahead of United (amongst others) over the last few years is accurate and credible then what can I say? And you're right, it's not all about trophies. Although it would be nice to try and win some. But what else do we have? We now only player exciting, attacking football very occasionally. We're the most spineless team in English football. The constant propaganda coming out of the club and nonsense about "super quality signings", combined with Wenger's conduct on the touchline and in press conferences recently in particular and the arrogant, pampered nature of our squad over the last few years we certainly don't display any professionalism. These are as big a gripe as the trophies for me.

  111. Jaded Harold. Or lies, damned lies and statistics.

    Dec 20, 2012, 20:03 #29965

    @Chris- Re your reply to Canada Gooner and your assertion that Wenger is 'over-achieving'. Given the narrow and basic criteria you use, you may have convinced yourself, but a manager's achievements should be judged on his use of all the resources he has available, not just the money that he spends, and on this score Wenger has failed. To decide there is no need to use all the financial resources at a time when we are winning absolutely nothing year in year out is a dereliction of duty and a massive under-achievement. It is much easier to spend less and achieve less, even if you are marginally out-pointing comparable clubs, but Arsenal have the FIFTH HIGHEST TURNOVER in world football, and to hear Wenger say he'd rather finish fourth than win the FA Cup is galling in the extreme. And to read you following his lead is pretty depressing from a fans point of view. Most fans don't care about the Champions League these days, it just means an extra £20m that Wenger won't feel the need to spend to enter a competition that we're never anywhere near good enough to win (after a very boring group stage). Like you, I get fed up when people take statistics out of context to suit their argument, and that is exactly what you've been doing. Even the most cursory look at the big picture shows that Wenger has under-achieved in the last 6 years, and the saddest thing of all is that I don't see anything changing as long as fans like yourself are calling for more of the same.

  112. CanadaGooner

    Dec 20, 2012, 19:08 #29963

    @Chris - i can see some of your points and i'm going to respond simply because you dont sound like that moron (jack) who is just musing on without any semblance of logic. you say you dont think it's all about trophies; ofcourse, and that's why arsenal still fills a 60,000+ stadium today; if it was all about trophies, we wouldnt have any fans left. But people do not want to pay all that money (and time grabbing the tube or bus to get to games etc) to watch a team that cant beat a league 2 club. for 7 years, majority have been happy to carry on supporting wenger to bring by change and get back to winning ways, and he appeared to have a plan at the onset, and then the 'sale of quality players' began; and now we're not sure what the plan is; just excuses to justify why we now no longer even have a plan. that, my friend, is not good enough, and it is the reason people are not fedup and want change. i'm sure you go to the stadium and you see the trophies and years we won then, as displayed around the rim of the stadium? do you see 4th or 3th place finishes shown on there? well, then. much as you have your points and you believe those, you may well agree that the other side have a very compelling point and there indeed needs to be some changes (something the manager simply cant grasp!)

  113. Alsace Lorraine De Totteridge

    Dec 20, 2012, 18:54 #29962

    Dear Chris, I started out being a moderate like you, keen not to insult Mr Wenger in consideration of past services. I respond with venom when I am met with it, and after much provocation. You are clearly content with mediocrity, whereas I would rather exploit our relative financial strength and use it efficiently. Most of the last six or seven championships were winnable (or at least we could have made a credible assault on them) if Mr Wenger had followed some basics. He has flouted almost every basic requirement in the book, not out of necessity, but from ego. I gave you the Gervinio example, which you have had the good grace to accept. Here's another. We have no stopping or holding midfielder in the club. Wenger sold the last one because he would rather break the bodies of creative midfielders, than hire the necessary midfield enforcers. He would rather pay 10 poor players to be at other clubs than spend money on the two necessary hardmen to get through a season. He is a poor tactician, a poor strategist and a terrible disciplinarian. It doesn't matter to me that there are 14 poorer managers in the League every season. I want someone competent in charge, not an egomaniac. Arsene Wenger will get kicked out because he has a losing strategy. It's simply a matter of time. How much time depends on how long people are prepared to support him, and how much damage to the club those same people are prepared to tolerate.

  114. Jaded Harold

    Dec 20, 2012, 17:15 #29955

    @Chris- 2 questions. Could you tell me how Wenger's ratio of TROPHIES to spend stands up over the past 6 years? And do you think it might have been improved had he spent all the money available to him? To be fair though, Wenger has been more successful points-wise than the various managers at the basketcase club that is Liverpool FC. And although Chelsea won the FA Cup AND Champion's League last season, Wenger's team did manage to earn more league points. So that's alright then.

  115. mark from aylesbury

    Dec 20, 2012, 17:11 #29954

    Chris No trophies 8 years over achieving? No trophies 9 years ?? no trophies a decade????? When does the over achieving become failure at every level. I also wonder if anyone can name any Arsenal manager who went potless for 8 seasons?

  116. Chris

    Dec 20, 2012, 16:42 #29951

    @Canadagooner - personally I don't believe it is all about trophies - what about the fans of all the other clubs that haven't won one recently? Do they feel supporting their team is a waste of time? I also believe that most Liverpool & Spurs fans would gladly swap their League Cup wins for qualifying for the CL (ie finsihing in the top 4) for the last 6 seasons. If I appear smug by saying 'Next?', it's because I'm tired of seeing untruths trotted out about Wenger's performance - if tpm is a football fan, not a statistician, he maybe shouldn't quote inaccurate ones. The stats don't lie - even if you don't like them. Bradford - not such a bad result as the Champions losing to the team that should have been expelled form the league in 1992 - these things happen. And I repeat - Wenger continues to over-achieve.

  117. CanadaGooner

    Dec 20, 2012, 16:25 #29948

    @Chris; we're football fans mate (not statisticians!); all we want to see is our team not roll over at Bradford. how about that? You know things are not going well at a club when fans begin to use "spend to points ratio" and all that crap to justify what's been going on! Spurs have won a trophy in recent years, so have liverpool, chelsea, man utd and man city. when they start casting 'points per spend' in the shape of a trophy and you can stand statistics in a trophy cabinet, then you can start feeling so smug with stats. Next?

  118. Chris

    Dec 20, 2012, 14:30 #29940

    @TPM - Incorrect. We had the 5th highest wage bill in the last period for which all data was in (up to 2011). Also, we have confortable the 5th highest expenditure when wages + net tranfer spend is considered. Finally, we have best ratio of points to spend of any top team over the past 5-6 years(approx the same as Sp*rs, who being a midtable team should score more highly on this metric). Clearly, he's doing better than he should do. Next?

  119. tpm

    Dec 20, 2012, 12:54 #29934

    no hes not doing better than he should. hes doing the bare mininum. we have over the last few years we have flited between having the 3rd/4th highest wage bills, and flitted between 3rd/4th place. thus aw is doing nothing more than he should be. the fact that those with much lower expenditures like spurs are within a single point of us on so many occasions suggests hes only just manging to acheive this bare mininum.

  120. Chris

    Dec 20, 2012, 11:35 #29929

    Alsace L de T - you and SGRB clearly know each other. Very similar voice and use of identical phrases, plus some cringe-worthy mutual back-patting about each others 'witty comments' and use of the bizarre statements that folk defending Wenger should follow him to his next club and are the 'enemies of Arsenal'. IP addresses would be worth checking on the off chance. In any case,I may have been 'seduced by the cult of Wenger' so would say this to attemtp to 'position myself as standing for fairness and reason', but how about a little respect and perspective? I knowit's hard and we all (myself included) can rise to the (de)bait. But if Jack's vitriol is so destable, why return it with your own? The points you make about the team are valid cause for concern to a moderately knowledgable observer such as myself. But as yet, they have not impacted upon OGL's performance as a manager, as measured by e.g. points versus expenditure. He's still doing better than he should be - so, you explain to me why that is if he is such an incompetent manager. I'm all ears.

  121. Wmg

    Dec 19, 2012, 22:42 #29922

    @goonercolesyboy So because fans are young they don't know anything about the club?! How disgraceful of them to want a new manager who might win silverware again [!!!!!!]

  122. Alsace Lorraine De Totteridge

    Dec 19, 2012, 21:33 #29920

    Because Jack, it is you who are the enemy of the club with your support of OGL. Please please follow Arsene to whatever club is stupid enough to hire him once we manage the effort to get rid. You can then bask in the subsequent emasculation of that club on the alter of OGL's massive ego. Your loyalty to this manager is misplaced and your vitriol detestable. It is impossible to enjoy our football or support our club properly with that idiot in charge. Henry, Nasri, Van Persie, Fabregas and now Walcott have now woken up and smelt the coffee. Take your blinkers off and LOOK at what is happening to our club. Theo Walcott, serial underachiever, is walking out because he has no hope of any medals under this manager and will not be allowed to play in the position which suits him best. Why is he not being allowed that privilege ? Because Wenger wants to play Gervinho there!!! Wenger thinks that a player who is nine yards worse than Eddie McGoldrick or Francis Jeffers should play up front. Why not the tea lady or the stadium cat? If Wenger decided to play either of those up front, you and your mates in the AKB would lap it up and tell us that the manager must have his reasons.

  123. tpm

    Dec 19, 2012, 20:05 #29916

    ooo watch out goonercolesyboy is about super fan alert, u can support arsenal properly if u are in your 20's...jeez. bet u didnt dare say anything to those guys faces and just vented anonoymously about them on here. saddo. the key fact is we are arsenal fans not arsene fans. can u not grasp that they are not one and the same??? its clear that those that just dont want to accept reality cannot ever be convinced anything is wrong, but please please please just try to justfy to me why wenger wont spend his transfer kittys, and hands provenly woeful players, long deals, eg djorrou, sticks to a formation that doesnt suit his players, plays gervino up front, kept almunia as our number one for many years, has formulaic 70 minute subs and has no tactics? i wont hold my breath for your response. come on im waiting

  124. Ron

    Dec 19, 2012, 12:18 #29894

    Good win. The team can only beat whats in front of it disregarding all of the debates. Cant knock 5-2 away whatever your general views on the Club/Wenger are.

  125. northbank123

    Dec 19, 2012, 10:51 #29891

    Mandy first of all - and this is the point several point can't grasp - nobody's not backing the players as a group. Wanting the manager to leave doesn't mean that you hate the whole club. Arsene isn't Arsenal. And for an overtly attacking team we've only scored 31 goals in 17 league games, hardly spectacular. And when you consider that 11 came in 2 games against the two defensively worst sides in the league (Reading and Southampton), 20 goals in the other 15 games really paints a picture.

  126. billthered

    Dec 19, 2012, 10:44 #29888

    It was a good performance on Monday but please dont say that exorcises all the dross we have had to put up with this season.We cannnot put these performances against the top teams that tells us quite a lot.

  127. Jaded Harold

    Dec 19, 2012, 10:37 #29887

    Mike- Besides the fact that Man Utd are a pretty massive 'apart from' considering they've won more trophies than anyone else, the point of my post was that the available money that Wenger HASN'T spent through a combination of arrogance, stubborness, The Project and just bad judgement of players might just have turned the near misses and capitulations into trophies. That's the frustration.

  128. In Arsene We Trust

    Dec 19, 2012, 9:48 #29882

    Arsenal is climbing up that table, yet we have these "Asrenal fans", more accurately, plastic fan moaning because we didn't win by 8 goals. 3 points is what matters. Quit whining and support the club. Arsene knows best.

  129. Nilesh Bhagat

    Dec 19, 2012, 8:52 #29881

    "the key thing was the space and time that were allowed to Santi Cazorla, who ran the game. Because the opposition did not get tight to him, they could not get a foothold in the game" - Reading are a poor side but I don't think they set out to let Cazorla run the game nor was it an accident. The genuine pace and movement in the front 3 meant that the Reading defence had to drop off and were afraid to squeeze the game into midfield hence there was more time and space for Cazorla and Wilshere to operate. Also you say it is worth keeping Walcott as 'an impact sub' for £100K a week? I look forward to your next moan about the wage bill and 'rewarding mediocrity'.

  130. Mike

    Dec 19, 2012, 8:21 #29880

    Jaded Harold - you mention that every club apart from Man City and Chelsea have got financial constraints - Apart from Man Utd and those two, which other clubs in the EPL have won any decent trophies in the last 5 years. Lets ee if anything happens in the transfer window - although personally I think Huntelaar will probably be the only really decent buy - Wenger has now attempted to tie down the English youngsters which is perhaps an indication that he realises players from other nations tend to be nomadic and mercenary. He can now at least build a team around them and they are a promising but unproven bunch, but I believe he is now on the right track after all his other failed teams - I believe he should tie down Theo for the same reason.

  131. Der Projekt ist Kaput

    Dec 19, 2012, 7:23 #29879

    Reading are by far the worst team in the Prem league - but they can still score SEVEN goals against us in two games. An Arsenal defence? What a good idea!

  132. goonercolesyboy

    Dec 19, 2012, 0:38 #29878

    I was standing a few seats behind the banner...they , about 8 of them, were in their early twenties....just tells you all you need to know about them and their knowledge of Arsenal Football Club.

  133. Lee Bedford

    Dec 19, 2012, 0:30 #29877

    Love the Banner Boys! about bloody time as well I was beginning to think I was on my own in Block 16 at the e******s, funnily enough I was row H in that corner last night but left just before the whistle (yeah yeah i know early leavers but after bradford last week i think ive earned the right to sneak out LOL), i would have helped lift it up though win lose or draw. Mate and I got talking to some gooners in kfc before the game and its amazing people dont seem to remember the club existing or having good times before wenger came along in 1996! and then everybody was saying arsene who? whos to say we cant move on and find another young european coach to bring our club back to greatness where we belong! dear old arsene has become too powerful at the club im afraid but just like players, no one man is bigger than the club! EVER

  134. northbank123

    Dec 18, 2012, 23:53 #29876

    Jack - yet somebody else who just rationalises anyone who doesn't want Wenger in charge as not a real fan. There is a difference between supporting the club and the manager. You'd do well to remember that. Rocky - Where has the sense of pride gone? It's been pissed away through years of complacency, spinelessness, non-professionalism and celebrating mediocrity. Fans didn't used to slate those players because in that era everybody used to know what it meant to wear the shirt and people gave their all and cared about the club. Also that's a poor analogy because the opposition obviously makes no difference when you're shooting 30 yards out but over 90 minutes it clearly does. What did we learn from Reading? Arsenal can look good going forward against a team that won't close, are disorganised and will back off us. Of course it matters that it was against Reading because very few other teams in the league would ever allow us to play like that, regardless of ability. There's no way the same is true now.

  135. Rocky RIP

    Dec 18, 2012, 22:58 #29875

    I'm with jack to an extent but also hear what CanadaGooner is saying. There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism and striving for the best for our club. Passivley accepting lowering standards isn't being much of a fan, but neither is the relentless negativity I read on this site, day after day. People are entitled to scrutinise every game and question the manager. We also are right to keep the club on its toes and not take us for granted. However, when credit is due after a cracking performance, and we STILL hear the usual moans, then that is tiresome and sh!te 'support'. People come piling out to criticise, but never say a word when there's a chance to be positive. Some have admitted to actually wanting us to lose or not actually caring any more....yet they bother to come on here and share it with us. There's a lot of soul-searching going on and finger pointing, with people needing a scapegoat. What's required is balance and perspective. Constructive criticism is fair enough, but shooting someone down for daring to praise the team or suggest that we are starting to gell as a side is a poor show. We're are own worst enemies. Fans of other clubs rate our team/manager higher than we do! Where else do you find that?

  136. Mandy Dodd

    Dec 18, 2012, 22:48 #29874

    Nothbank123, protest is a right, just thought the timing very unfortunate. We have players good enough, we have some who are not, why not back those who clearly are? Jaded, yes a wobble, we will have a few as an overtly attacking team takes shape, but even the mighty and much praised on here man Utd have had a few defensive wobbles of late?

  137. GaryFootscrayAustralia

    Dec 18, 2012, 22:47 #29873

    Having read and been amused by the usual level of in - fighting over a match report, at least I can give credit that nobody as yet has asked for a new DMC, SC, DR, DRLC, or D/M/F/RLC...I keep forgetting that some people seem to view the football that happens in real life as a giant game of Football Manager (or Championship Manager for the DOS retros like me).

  138. CanadaGooner

    Dec 18, 2012, 22:28 #29872

    @Jack --- I joined this site several months back solely seeking a forum where arsenal fans can be encouraged to support the team 100% especially during the season as I still do not believe displaying banners or singing songs that could discourage the team during the season is productive. Each match I have attended this season has confirmed one thing: arsenal fans are very intelligent, and during the games we all (ALL) still cheer the team on; that's what being a fan is all about. But for you to expect people not to have a moan online, especially after a team of supposed superstars got beat by a league 2 team, is stupid. any real or unreal fan will be pissed off by that; infact, anyone who doesnt have an issue with a result like that has no business being a fan! get off your silly high horse and face reality. nobody at arsenal is looking for or asking for a miracle; these fans you insult now, have all largely been patient for 7 years; and if you look back to 2006, 2007, 2008; most were full of support for arsene, all hoping he can turn things around. it is the philosophical nonsense and the cap that has been coming out of arsene's mouth (and gazidis) in the last 3 seasons that has tipped a majority of fans over that cliff where they've simply had enough. that and the fact that the performances are now getting worse each season and arsene appears more and more clueless. I cant see how anyone can blame fans for getting a little fedup at this point

  139. Rocky RIP

    Dec 18, 2012, 22:10 #29871

    @CanadaGooner - 'i dont think arsenal played well at Reading because Reading were poor' is what you said, which I apologise for misinterpreting. It is ambigious and does work both ways in fairness. Fair enough if you are agreeing Arsenal played very well. @Tpm - I'm not missing any point. Good passing and movement, running off the ball and team understanding is good passing and movement whoever you play. In the same way a sweetly struck 30 yard volley from a tight angle into the top corner is a great goal irrespective of the opposition; a great save is a great save irrepsective of the oppostion, etc. You don't question a tennis player's brilliant performance in thrashing an inferior opponent if all the key attributes to their game are technically spot on - you praise it. Okay, they gave us more space than most and didn't get into our faces like most teams, but we still played well. I only say these things as it seems to be against a tide of negativity. Why do so many of our fans have a problem with people saying it when we do?! Is it our revolting modern fanbase? If you slagged a player in the late 70s/early 80s on the clockend you'd be handed your arse on the basis of fans with unconditional love defending their own. Now it seems fashionable to never say anything positive. Where's the sense of pride gone?

  140. Jack

    Dec 18, 2012, 22:08 #29870

    Why don't the Anti Arsenal Arsenal just go and support a team who does live up to their expectations and leave Arsenal to it's true fans who support the club through thick and thin.I'm fed up with listening to these bores.

  141. Any Old Iron

    Dec 18, 2012, 22:06 #29869

    Many are catching on fast regarding OGL. Some have been wise to him a lot longer. I venture to say that he is losing backers fast now. Wonder why. The fans with the banner have every right to display this wherever and whenever they want. Like the morons hanging their Arsene knows best/In Arsene we trust cack, it's a free country. Keep showing it guys. As GoonerGoal says ''VIVA LA REVOLUCION!''

  142. Jaded Harold

    Dec 18, 2012, 21:27 #29868

    @Money 'ring fenced'- Nobody I know (pro or anti Wenger) has ever believed that we have not been working under some kind of financial restraint- we've got a £20m a year mortgage- but apart from Man City or Chelsea EVERY club has to cut their financial cloth accordingly to some extent. That is not the argument. The issue that many Arsenal fans have is that Wenger hasn't spent the money that he DOES have available, money that could have made the difference between 3rd place and 1st, especially when so many fans were imploring him to strengthen defensively at the start of the 2010 and 2011 January transfer windows. I've lost count of how many times Gazidis has said there's money available, even Kroenke at the AGM stated that he's never refused Wenger money, and of course in 2009 Hill-Wood famously and publicly quoted Wenger as telling him he wasn't spending the 'quite a lot of money' available to him because there was no-one he could find to improve the team (this when Almunia was our first choice keeper). The new commercial deal will only replace the last 2 property windfalls the club received, neither of which altered Wenger's spending pattern. I've no idea why people think he'll change, he was as much a spendthrift in his first few years at the club as he is now, and of course he had the same no.2 for an incredible 16 years before retirement forceably ended the 'partnership'. I'm sure many feel guilty when they think about criticising the man who had such a great first 10 years and many are scared of Arsenal life after Wenger as he's all they've ever known, but he's simply not the manager he was, and he should stand aside gracefully and allow a new manager with fresh ideas to build a new era of trophy winning success. Mandy Dodd- Can't think of a more perfect time to show the flag than last night, after a victory against an awful team where we STILL managed to have a wobble. Showed the fans involved are more consistent than the team.

  143. CanadaGooner

    Dec 18, 2012, 20:40 #29867

    @RockyRIP - if you re-read my comment you'll see that you misinterpreted what I said. Yes, I think arsenal played very well (infact, so much so, that i disagree that it was just because Reading didnt play well; i said i think Reading didnt play any worse than some of the teams we have struggled against already this season, which is testament to the fact that the team played very well). the only question is: how will they play the next game? (the season is 38 games, not one)

  144. tpm

    Dec 18, 2012, 20:23 #29865

    rockyrip: "The Arteta-Wilshere-Cazorla trio were on a different planet to Reading's midfield. Passed them off their own pitch as the possession stats bear out. Barring a clean sheet, I'm not sure what else was needed for us to have played well. Our passing and movement was absolutely spot on. Please don't say 'it was only Reading' as that entirely misses the point" no you miss the point the fact it was aginst reading is crucial to judging the performance. reading are worse than qpr. that sums it up. as for our midfield being on a different planet to readings, so what? it bloody well should be, they are a championship side, we like to think of ourselves as one of the biggest clubs in the world. come on mandy/debbie (do u even know wat wob means debbie) et al, crow and say the anti wengers are wrong on the back of the 2nd easiest fixture of the year. give me strength. u are really clutching at straws.

  145. northbank123

    Dec 18, 2012, 19:45 #29864

    Mandy - had we lost this game many in the media would have insisted that it was just shown on the back of a few poor results. Instead it was shown at a game we won so they can't throw round the accusations of being fickle so easily, and showed that it's not a knee-jerk reaction as some are bizarrely suggesting. The game showed why people want him gone. We showed our ability (albeit against a woeful team), and then somehow managed to make a game of it at 4-0 up against a team that can't string a few passes together. The players we have aren't good enough, and our performances and results aren't good enough for the players we have. It's a double failure. Anybody with half a brain and the will to think for themselves, whatever their personal view on Wenger, can see that last night changes nothing in that respect.

  146. GoonerGoal!

    Dec 18, 2012, 19:08 #29863

    Oh look, yet another swallow! Does anybody really think that it means Summer is about to begin? No, I didn't think so... VIVE LA REVOLUTION!

  147. Mandy Dodd

    Dec 18, 2012, 19:00 #29862

    We were shown glimpses of how wenger wants this team to play. With courage, skill and flair. Santi, what a player, the team top of the league had to man mark him with a thirty million pound forward, but now, if you take Santi out of the game, there is a resurgent wilshere to deal with. A very very unfortunate choice of game for any such banner.

  148. Peter Wain

    Dec 18, 2012, 18:46 #29861

    I refuse to get too excited about last night. I cannot believe how poor reading were and when I think back to the awful performances we have put in this year I am still convinced that this is the weakest squad since the sixties. We still need to buy certainly in defence a left back centre half and defensive mid field player would help solidify the back.

  149. Jason B

    Dec 18, 2012, 18:29 #29860

    Wenger out.

  150. jamie hunter

    Dec 18, 2012, 18:29 #29859

    I cringe when I read the likes of 'we played so well because the likes of gervinho and Ramsey weren't playing'. I'm convinced clough reads these things and it will only lead to him picking them on Saturday! Good to get the win obviously, but Jesus Christ, how poor are reading? It's like watching a kids team, as soon as they have possession everyone piles up front. I'm sure it was just after the first goal, only about 15 minutes gone and they had so many players caught upfield that Chamberlain got the ball with about 60 yards of space to run into. It was basically arsenal against a poorer version of arsenal. No idea or inclination to try to stop the opposition. I'd need a damn good set of Christmas results before cutting this team any slack, and we all know that won't happen. As for walnut, I don't care how many goals he scores, no contract no games as far as I'm concerned. We all know he's off next month, so why are we pandering to him and allowing him to put himself in the shop window? Great work with the banner lads, let's get it up at Highbury as soon as possible.

  151. Rocky RIP

    Dec 18, 2012, 17:44 #29857

    @CanadaGooner - you don't think Arsenal played well at Reading!? Incredible comment. If you can overlook the 2 defensive lapses which are, I admit, infuriating and unforgivable, the rest of the performance was fantastic. Taken in isolation Arsenal played very well indeed. (I'm not ruling out another Swansea on the horizon, just taken in isolation last night was very pleasing.) The front 3 worked very well together and tore into Reading. Jack was excellent. The Arteta-Wilshere-Cazorla trio were on a different planet to Reading's midfield. Passed them off their own pitch as the possession stats bear out. Barring a clean sheet, I'm not sure what else was needed for us to have played well. Our passing and movement was absolutely spot on. Please don't say 'it was only Reading' as that entirely misses the point.

  152. JER

    Dec 18, 2012, 16:54 #29856

    If Walcott goes, the highest scorers remaining with the club will be Bendtner, Arshavin, Rosicky, Diaby, Vermaelen in that order.

  153. John Abrehart

    Dec 18, 2012, 16:54 #29855

    A word regarding Theo. For me he should certainly stay, he invariably provides something, even if it's putting the sh*ts up the opposition and breaking up their game plans. To see Jack and Theo interviewed on the box after the game told me that by his body language he will be leaving, despite Jack almost pleading for him to stay. If the rumours are true that he is to join Manure, this may be in part to some cajoling behind the scenes by RVP,who rated Theo and after all, was the provider of many of his goals last season. Theo would no doubt be put on the wing and only get a handfull of starts but could end up with a Premiership medal this season. Kiss the badge? Don't make me laugh. In my view, transfers between clubs in the same divisions should only be allowed in the summer window. The next few weeks will be very revealing; if Theo does go, his goals and his impact will need replacing. If the situation was reversed and he was interested in coming to us, we would go for him I am sure. Very bad management that this situation has arisen.

  154. CanadaGooner

    Dec 18, 2012, 16:33 #29854

    Kev, keep up the good work man! your recent articles have been top-notch in degrees of fairness and factual reporting/observation. Zaha will be another Giroud or Gerv. Arsenal MUST learn to buy premiership-tested scorers (which was why Fergie priced RVP off us; it wasnt like they werent getting enough goals off rooney and chichirito). If Demba Ba is available, we should offload walcott (we are already carrying too many duds!) but before we offload walcott, some others MUST be considered first. there is no logic to offloading walcott if you're going to keep gervinho for instance (albeit he(gervinho) is probably clever enough not to ask for 20k more!). the simple reality is that we MUST look to premiership-tested strikers when it comes to rushed january sales. over summer a manager can scour around for the perfect blend of player etc (something wenger hasnt done well since 2006 anyway), but in january you're looking for an impact buy: so, demba ba, michu or whoever else has been banging the goals in for the prennial middle-table teams should be brought in to see what they can do at a club where they will get many more scoring opportunities per match; as it's not like we havent been creating bucket-ful of chances, if only ramsey, gervinho and others didnt play with their blindfolds on! Like yourself, i dont think arsenal played well at Reading because Reading were poor (we've lost at clubs who have been worse than Reading already this season; so, nothing was guaranteed yesterday). getting an early goal is always key for arsenal, and that is one of the reasons why we thrived when we had clinical finishers and with a demba ba type character, we can get those early goals bundled in, and then guys like Cazorla take over Any attempt to cover up the Bradford disaster (and perhaps the only trophy we could have won this season) with a win at Reading is simply silly; let's see what happens at mighty Wigan on saturday. Up the arsenal!!!

  155. Greenwichgooner

    Dec 18, 2012, 16:24 #29853

    I really like last night's front 3. Gazza Neville did too, and he knows far more than i do about who is tough to defend against (said he'd far prefer marking Giroud) - pace, skill and movement at last. Cazorla playing just behind instead of having to drop back. Can't play this way with Giroud up front as he's static. I think HE's the impact sub, for plan B - good header of the ball, but v ordinary with his feet and v slow. No Gervinho or Ramsey (latter as sub is ok) improved the pace no end. We won't sign anyone better than Theo, so we need to keep Theo. I thought he played well. Lovely to watch us play well again, don't care if it was "only" Reading. They're 3 divisions above Bradford... I will scream if AW reverts to Giroud, Ramsey or Gervinho vs Wigan. Theo, Pod (can he play twice a week? Wasn't last night his first 90 mins?) and Ox please.

  156. Brigham

    Dec 18, 2012, 15:53 #29851

    A far better display, even it was agains lowly opposition, but have failed before against teams like that have we not? We attacked with more pace, meaning and our approach play was far better than it has been in recent games. As a sidenote, Walcott missed the one on one with the score at 1-0, not 0-0 as you posted.

  157. Debbie

    Dec 18, 2012, 15:17 #29850

    Even the Wenger out glory hunters must have been impressed with last nights display.Or does it not count as it wasn't against one of the big boys."WOB OUT WOB OUT WOB OUT".

  158. Mike D

    Dec 18, 2012, 15:06 #29849

    This same team minus Arteta and Walcott surrendered to lowly Bradford last week.Tells you all you need to know about Wengers pussies.

  159. maguiresbridge gooner

    Dec 18, 2012, 15:05 #29848

    Reading are the Xmas turkeys alright just the way arsenal were against Bradford.To say us fans were owed a result is a massive understatement but at least they gave us one, for now anyway with three much needed points and it's done our goal difference no harm.They'll certainly not get the same time and space in a lot of other games through out the season so you could say it's a bit of both kev, but reading aren't bottom of the league for nothing.For all the good work done up front and the individual displays Santi,Jack,there were still the defensive mistakes,lapes in concentration,complacency,their all the same and their still being made, are they ever going to be sorted ? Yes it's what arsenal should be doing to these sort of teams but never do, it's another one on Saturday can we do it again ? I hope so because were still owed.

  160. chris dee

    Dec 18, 2012, 14:47 #29846

    This was no game to judge the team or Walcott,Reading were poor. What has to be pointed out was that two goals conceded were down to rank bad,sloppy defending. Ed Kev, you can forgive complacency if you have a comfortable lead? Really? Well Ed Kev I reckon your comment is more than a bit complacent as is your asumption that our next few fixtures are against 'relatively moderate opposition'.Unless of course I'm reading the Premiership table wrong and we are top with a lead of 15 points.

  161. Money 'ring-fenced'

    Dec 18, 2012, 14:47 #29845

    We slaughter the manager and players when we lose, so credit where it's due - irrespective of opposition - Faultless first half. Good team shape. Midfield trio were awesome. Great running off the ball, movement and passing. Jack's return is so key. A telling quote?'We have gone through a period of restricted financial potential when we moved into the new stadium but we have gone over that and, hopefully, we can be a bit more convincing now' - Arsene Wenger. People have questioned whether he has been working under finacial constraints and we've had plenty of discussion over it on here. I think this quote reveals a lot about the supposed 'money available to Arsene' and the 'money ring-fenced for the manager'. How self-imposed it all is is the debatable point.(And yes, I'm aware our wage bill is badly managed.)

  162. Gare Kekeke

    Dec 18, 2012, 14:39 #29844

    A good night’s work all round. Can’t say I’m a Walcott fan but I do believe he’s worth keeping and his claims that he should play centrally was enhanced. In my view, we benefit more from Walcott than we do from the erratic Gervinho. Good goal from Podolski and Cazorla again proving to be the midfielder that Alex Hleb didn’t want to be. I must also mention another good game from Wilshire too. I’ll stick with my previous prediction that he can be our Paul Scholes. Still worrying though that we still have defensive flaws in our game even when we are cruising in some games. We can get away with it against poor teams like Reading but as we have seen in recent years, against far tougher opposition, we are not so lucky. I still believe that we will finish in the top four and maybe third again because of Chelsea’s recent collapse. How long that will last is debatable. But whatever issues I have with Wenger & the board, I’ll happily take finishing above that artificial lot & Tottenham any day of the week. We are still the biggest and most successful club in London. It’s about time some people realised this. Having a billionaire owner who writes all the cheques for the players doesn’t constitute a football club being bigger than everybody else. Some people should also remember where were Chelsea when we on route to winning the league in 1989 and what happened to Man City just a couple of hours before our title clinching win against Everton in 1998. Up The Arsenal!

  163. Trevor

    Dec 18, 2012, 14:31 #29843

    In 90 minutes, Walcott and Oxlade-Chamberlain offered more up front and on the wing, respectively, than Gervinho and Ramsey have all season. Hopefully the gaffer's experiments with the latter pair are over. Up the Arsenal.

  164. Jaded Harold

    Dec 18, 2012, 14:12 #29842

    Respect to the guys with the goodbye Wenger banner, they know that beating the worst team in the division (with the inevitable wobble) changes nothing and we will continue to tread water and achieve nothing until Wenger goes. Guys, if you bring the banner to Southampton I'll come over and join you.

  165. WMG

    Dec 18, 2012, 14:12 #29841

    Walcott's miss was at 1-0. Good win against a poor Reading side. Glad to see that banner out, let's see it at Wigan please!!

  166. GoonerRon

    Dec 18, 2012, 13:52 #29840

    I was really frustrated by the lapses in the concentration for the goals we conceded as it gave them unneeded impoteous and we should be aiming for more clean sheets - that said I'm not sure we would have conceded those goals if it was 0-0 or 1-0. Theo will obviously have more difficult games against better CB's but I thought he did pretty well with his back to goal and is definitely getting more consistent with his touch. One thing I did notice is that we varied our play more than I can remember, in terms of playing slightly longer when the ball was on - this is a genuine option simply by virtue of him being furthest forward and not having to work the flanks and protecting our full backs in more defensive positions.

  167. eboueisawitchdoctor

    Dec 18, 2012, 13:23 #29839

    kevin: spot on with the cazorla observation. close him down, as wigan surely will, and the service and energy will disintegrate. no doubt with a win under their belts, they'll relax again and treat the opposition in the manner they do most relegation threatened teams, expecting them to lie down and die as we pass them to death. i'm certainly not holding my breath over saturday.

  168. Angry Dave

    Dec 18, 2012, 13:15 #29837

    Don't let this 'decent' performance cloud everyone's judgement that time is up for Wenger. Theo will probably depart and with little investment in January will mean that we'll still be scrambling around for that fourth place trophy. Don't know about anyone else but that is simply not good enough - we should be challenging for the title and with a current, ambitious and proven-quality Manager like Pep in place this could happen. Just wish the pathetic board could see this and end this nightmare cycle we are in.

  169. northbank123

    Dec 18, 2012, 12:59 #29836

    Two reasons that we scored for fun last night: 1) Reading are the worst team in the league and concede goals for fun. Their defending is woeful and they gave our midfield three so much time on the ball. 2) We play best at pace. A front three of Podolski, Walcott and Chamberlain understandably means moving the ball quicker and better movement than when we play any of Ramsey, Giroud or Gervinho in those positions, or God forbid all three. Expect to see at least one of them back for the next game though.

  170. Mark

    Dec 18, 2012, 12:56 #29835

    Reading were absolutely awful and arsenal took advantage.

  171. mike

    Dec 18, 2012, 12:30 #29833

    only one school of thought - there were bodies in the box when the crosses came in at last. Midfield trio are also beginning to click