How difficult is it to manage a side with Messi in it?

All Arsenal need is their own Lionel…



How difficult is it to manage a side with Messi in it?

The Good Ship Arsenal – More like the Titanic?


Take Messi out of Barça and put him in an Arsenal shirt, and you would put your money on us winning the title. His ability to score between one and three goals a game makes the rest of a team’s weaknesses largely irrelevant. We've had our share of those players that make the difference - Henry, Dennis, Paddy. Wenger built a team initially around Graham's old guard but allied to one or more of those players. You don't need a complicated game-plan when you have those kinds of players in the side. You could argue that the project culminated in the 2003/4 'Invincibles'.

Times moves on. The old philosophy and ideals are no longer relevant. Jack might grow to be one of those greats, but it's surely wishful thinking to believe that, further down the line, probably when he's in his prime, one of the big-hitters is not going to entice him with an offer he can't refuse. Why wouldn't you want to at least double your wages? As things stand, we are not going to be able to compete with the transfers/wages on offer either now or in the foreseeable future. I won't get into the arguments about FFP; suffice it to say I would be very surprised if the likes of City, Chelsea, RM and Barça haven't already covered that base.

George Graham commented not so long ago that he didn't think Arsenal would ever win the title again (later retracted, I know). But from where I stand, that unpalatable truth is what is driving all the frustration and upset among the fans. We are like passengers on the Titanic. Wenger and the Board attempt to reassure us that all will be fine when it’s obvious that, while we are not going to disappear into the abyss, we are a million miles from ever competing at the top table. We are sliding inexorably into mediocrity, neither good enough to play the old Arsenal way, nor able to roll our sleeves up and fight to the death.

So where does that leave the club? Our options are limited. We can unearth a gem or two, hang onto them for a few year before having to sell them on, or turn second-tier players like Giroud/Gervinho into world-class players - unlikely but possible. The core issue is that our football and the philosophy behind it needs to change. We need to be more pragmatic, more structured, more disciplined. We need to be more tactically astute. We need to be hard to beat and have a steel running through the side that makes sides know that to beat us they have to give everything. We need different kinds of players to cover up for the fact that we cannot field the talent we have seen in the past.

Is Wenger the man to bring about that change or is he still dreaming of finding another Messi?


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34
comments

  1. David the Price is Ian Wright Wright Wright!

    Jan 14, 2013, 0:37 #30737

    Wenger is most definitely not the man for the job any longer. How much more do you people want to witness. Any remaining Wengerites who get excited by his 'puffa' coat better keep quiet, as you are the dwindling few. The only Messi is the one that currently engulfs this great club. The one that it's 'custodian' is steering it through; a nightmarish adventure with no ending in sight. I haven't posted for a while, but after that shambles earlier I couldn't refrain myself. Again, defensively very fragile. Another kamikaze implosion by Koscielny. Dzeko had the beating of Koscielny 'all ends up' before the spot kick decision. Arsenal have always been there for the taking since 2008. Even if we were by some unforeseen stroke of fortune to get to a semi, or final as in 2011 v Birmingham, we will GET DONE! Whether it's him. BFG, or, any of the others at the back it's lamentable. Bould has had not one iota of influence from the previous defensive weaknesses. In fact, I'd hazard to say It's at best as bad as before. Do not roll out any ****e stats about goals conceded away, or other comparisons. I'm looking at the individual and combined errors in isolation. There is no mitigation for me. It's crap, sorry! Wenger has systematically and periodically stripped the club of Its best players, because he is hell-bent on his own brand of football fiscal prudence. We sold Song to the Spaniards who we always haemorrhage players to. Do you think a deal could be done in reverse, ever? What that tells you is that Wenger was after the money to boost the P & L. Yes, of course the Catalans wanted him; they recognised his versatility. We as a consequence are now weaker for it. Coupled with the catastrophic loss of RVP, we are going nowhere under Wenger's tutelage. Expect an exit to Bayern, we do not have the resources to eject them from the competition, especially over two legs. We may get a reaction v Swansea, but going all the way, NO WAY! REMEMBER THAT BANNER AT VILLA PARK WHEN HOULLIER WAS IN CHARGE. There may be another one going up there soon. We in sharp contrast are complicit in the demise of our club, out of blind loyalty, and a stubborn and crass refusal to acknowledge that the game is well and truly up. WENGER OUT!!

  2. Ronster

    Jan 13, 2013, 23:18 #30735

    Is that Stan's syrup I can see floating in the background!?

  3. Jego

    Jan 13, 2013, 22:10 #30733

    Arsenal needs 3 people: USMANOV, DEIN and PELLIGRINI

  4. Joe S.

    Jan 13, 2013, 20:52 #30731

    The picture just about says it all really.Only a fool would believe that Wegner has the footballing smarts to dig himself out of this hole. His comments both before and post match are no longer even laughable; " complete squad, character, only interested in top quality" it goes on and on. Any fool suggesting he be moved to the top is really living in gaga land. How much further would you like to see the club sink?

  5. Chris

    Jan 13, 2013, 20:15 #30730

    @SGRB - You may very well be right. The cost of keeping them would have been their wages for the year (I'll hazard a guess at 10m including all bosuses) plus RVP's tranfer fee (24m), Song's remaining the same after one year. That's 34m. If there's 60m in the bank, that's only just over half of the reserves. Wenger has said that he knew Manure would be streetsd ahead if he sold them RVP begging thr quesiotns of why he did) - if there is that much in reserve, why not splash it to eb title contenders? Baffling to me. @Peter Wain - to me, the defence shambles is a red herring. One RVP goal in 5 of those draws would have seen us with 10 momre points, irrespective of the defence (which, statistically, isn't that bad this year - even of some of the goals conceded have been)....

  6. GoonerSInce66

    Jan 13, 2013, 18:56 #30729

    Love the picture, saved it for my screen saver. It would have been nice to see less clueless boss on the bridge saluting and saying my strong and balanced squad will come through one day (after we hit the sea bed though if things don't change sooner rather than later)

  7. Andrey Arshavin

    Jan 13, 2013, 13:29 #30727

    The Russian Assassin, aka the Messi of St Petersburg... I´m bored tagging along on my wife´s shopping trips and picking up the girl´s after gymkana at the weekend... play me as a false 9 and you´ll see somthing better than Messi at Barca. As long as the opostion don´t have big players at the back or Brown Bears cus they are a bit scary and its the reason why I disappear in games...

  8. Peter Wain

    Jan 13, 2013, 13:21 #30726

    Chris we did not keep Song or RVP abnd even if we had the defensive shambles which we see every week would not have been that much bettter. For our esteemed manager to say we have a strong squad flies in the face of reality. We have no back up keeper, left back, decent centre half or a defensive mid field player. If Giroud is unfit we have to play Walcott through the middle and we will have no striker on the bench because we just do not have one. How anyone can say we have a strong squad is beyond me. We do need players (probably at least five) but I do not think our manager should spend because I do not trust his judgement anymore.

  9. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Jan 13, 2013, 9:28 #30725

    The current business model wouldn't allow for us buy Cazorla, Podolski and Giroud AND keep RVP and Song. That would require a complete overhaul of the club, which looks a million miles away to me...

  10. allybear

    Jan 12, 2013, 20:41 #30722

    Read today that Wenger thinks his squad is strong enough&he would hope to sign one top quality player,only if they are available&at the right price! Says it all for me.

  11. Chris

    Jan 12, 2013, 17:47 #30721

    @Highbury Boy - if I recall correctly, Podolski was bought before RVP's statement although that doesn't invalidate your point. In any case, what you say may very well be true - my view is simply that if we HAD kept RVP & Song and bought the players we did, plus had Jack coming back, we'd have been right up there. All I'm saying is we'er NOT a million miles away - just keeping those players plus dinig what we have would have mre or less done it. How many of the 7 draws so far would have been wins with RVP and Song? Even some of the losses might! And how many points would ManUre have lost if ANOtheher was playing instead of RVP? Quite a lot I would hazard - he's been the driving force for them most fot he season.

  12. BIG RADDY

    Jan 12, 2013, 13:39 #30720

    Love the picture

  13. Andy M

    Jan 12, 2013, 12:26 #30719

    just read how much Arsene is hurting by seeing RvP winning title for Utd - the player is at his peak. So why then, Arsene, did you allow it to get to a point where our talisman and Captain wanted to leave? Great management that was...

  14. BNG

    Jan 12, 2013, 10:20 #30718

    If you look carefully you can see OGL rearranging the deckchairs

  15. Highbury Boy

    Jan 11, 2013, 18:01 #30716

    @Chris. Podolski and Giroud were bought after VP had made it clear to Wenger that he was off. It wasn't made public but was widely known. There was no way Wenger would have authorized the purchase of those 2 players without knowing it would be funded from the sle of VP. Therefore it was never going to be a case of new players added to Song and VP.All hypothetical anyway. We are much further from winning the League title than any time in the last 16 years.

  16. Matt

    Jan 11, 2013, 17:57 #30715

    Everything will be fine when our 23 year old super striker gets his 100k a week. It's the Market value don't you know. Then we can all carry on paying £62 to watch a football match sat next to business men and tourists. Keep paying them everyone. The club and Theo and his ilk deserve it.

  17. Peter The Great

    Jan 11, 2013, 17:56 #30714

    Arsenal would stroll the league if they had Messi i'm sure of it and you can chuck in the Champs league too.We still despite what is said on this site dominate and have far more possession than other teams and are still easily the most attractive to watch.Messi would love it at Arsenal being in London and all the pomp that goes with it and our great stadium.He'd hate playing for the small time sides like Chelsea and Spurs with their limited game and their joke stadiums.The same way he'd hate being around all those ego's at City with their rubbish support or having to get on the end of long balls hoofed up the park by Vidic and Ferdinand,something RVP with his love to scrap style loves but a purist like Messi would hate.The only down side for Messi would be the glory boy whingers we have at the club who would probably even find fault in parts of his game.Yes Messi and Arsenal are made for each other and fit together like hand in glove.

  18. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jan 11, 2013, 15:51 #30713

    Good caption,is that theo on the deck having decided to jump ? Putting Messi in an arsenal shirt you would certainly think that but he'd need top top quality(real top top quality )like he already has around him, and we have none of those and never likely to have.More likely he'd be brought down to their level or played at left back. We're a million miles away alright Bard and it's not getting any closer having already slid into mediocrity sometime ago,the days when we were hard to beat are long gone and doubtful if they'll ever return as for steel running through the side it's on the Titanic.

  19. radfordkennedy

    Jan 11, 2013, 15:46 #30712

    I think you're all forgeting that if Messi and Ronaldo played for Arsenal,Messi would be played as a defensive midfielder and Ronaldo would be played wide left and told to drop back and cover Gibbs!!

  20. Peter Wain

    Jan 11, 2013, 14:34 #30710

    What a stupid article -even with Messi I do not see us winning the title. the defence is so shambolic I cannot see us winning anything with these players. What we need is George Graham to coach our defence so that they know what to do. Thet may all be internationals but I have seen better defending in the conference.

  21. Chris

    Jan 11, 2013, 14:27 #30709

    Red Mist - we were crap at the beginning of last season, before the new recruits settled. We have added some very good players since last season (plus Wilshere is back) but have suffered form being too reliant on them and having introduced them suddenly. Keep RVP and Song and we have a more gradual introduction for the new players and more rotation, plus we'd still have the best goalscorer in the league, leading to more consistency. With them we would have at least ten more points this season and the Mancs would have ten less - this would put us at the top next to Citeh, probably above them if we'd beaten them at their place. Yes it's all hypothetical but it's not that far fetched.

  22. VP

    Jan 11, 2013, 14:13 #30708

    I don’t see many top players sticking around and finishing their careers at Arsenal unless things change. The club has lost its ability to inspire and the only people falling for their BS is us the fans, which is why our top players keep leaving time after time. We can only pray that the ‘stepping stone’ culture has not filtered down to the youth team; although one would suspect it has. It will take a long time for a ‘loyalty culture’ to be re-integrated, and may prove extremely difficult given the unforgiving money fueled industry that the game has become. I think that the ramifications from our policies over the past decade are yet to be fully realized, and will continue to discount future gains in years to come. Any organization/club which fails to implement performance related rewards and benchmark them to industry standards are invariably fighting a losing battle. We are hoping that the FFP will help us achieve exactly that. It’s just a shame that the only people on the planet who believe this are the ones in charge of the club’s strategy. In essence, we are relying on our regulators to retain, motivate and attract OUR employees – how lame is that. What’s worrying, Glazadis recently pointed out that there is no other contingent strategy in place. If we really want to strengthen our DNA, First and foremost, we need to get rid of our poor gene pool of serving directors, starting with the chairman!

  23. Underachiever

    Jan 11, 2013, 14:06 #30707

    Wenger would probably have him playing as a centre back

  24. Red Member

    Jan 11, 2013, 14:02 #30706

    If we can't compete then the club should acknowledge this and let supporters have cheaper ticket prices OR Kroenke should be shown the door and we let Usmanov in. The current position is now pointless and is destroying this once great club.

  25. Red Mist

    Jan 11, 2013, 13:59 #30705

    Chris you are hilarious. Last season RVP best player in the league, but we were crap Man Utd lost the title on goal difference. RVP at Man Utd best player in the league Man Utd top we are even more crap than ever. A million miles indeed.

  26. CanadaGooner

    Jan 11, 2013, 13:48 #30704

    I dont get this article (sorry): (1) who cares what George Graham said or says? (Arsenal will never win another title? what nonsense! did anyone think Manchester City will suddenly become the toast of England?). If Abramovich chose to buy Fulham instead of Chelsea, wouldnt they be the ones with the trophies Chelsea accumulated over the last 6 years? In today's football any statement like that is simply idiotic (2) You can have as many Messis as you want but without the iniestas and Xavis of this world, you wont win a thing! Arsenal needs a total rehaul: new manager, new board, new direction and better players. Changing just one of those in isolation or bringing in a Messi will be a waste of time (3) from the time Flamini left and almunia declined, we havent had a midfield and goalie; not sure how a Messi would have solved those problems Enough said. I have slating articles on here as the author took the effort to draft it, but this one is quite shabby indeed.

  27. Ronster

    Jan 11, 2013, 12:18 #30703

    Theo Jensen....Maradonna did it with insane runs from midfield when the hatchet men still had licence to carry out their diry deeds!

  28. Ron

    Jan 11, 2013, 11:46 #30702

    Messie is a great talent no doubt, but the sheer amount of goals hes scored in la liga tell us much in that hes simply knocking over a load of weak teams in the main apart from 2, maybe 3 others. Im sure his strike rate would be pretty good in the EPL as the standard of defending is appalling but it wouldnt be near what it is in la liga in my view.I could be very wrong, but we ll never know as hes at the biggest outfit in the World anyway and wouldnt in my view chance his arm with the EPL as he wouldnt fancy the physicality of it. This for me is why Ronaldo is the greater player and the one i would have in my team. Hes done it in the EPL and hes also done it at international level to a better level than Messi too.Its all speculative though isnt it.

  29. Chris

    Jan 11, 2013, 9:25 #30699

    Not only is Messi surrounded by fantastic players at Barca, but they do all play quite a complicated game plan specifically to help him win games for them. My personal belief is that we're not a million miles for competing at the top again and it wouldn't even require a Messi - had RVP and Song remained at the club and remained on-side, I reckon we'd be at the top now - partly because ManUre would be struggling.

  30. Theo Jensen

    Jan 11, 2013, 8:53 #30698

    Messi's strike rate for Barca is 84% compared to 41% for Argentina. In the same way as Ronaldo scores twice as many goals in La Liga than the EPL... He's good but certainly not the best ever. The fact is those stand alone game-winning players are rare. Maradonna did it with insane runs from midfield, Van Persie did it with sublime footwork, movement and finishing. Look at Theirry Henry: a brilliant player but he always acknowledged the importance of Bergkamp's support as a factor. We are indeed miles off the top and you should say too that the EPL has overall seen a massive decline in standards which makes our siutation even more depressing.

  31. Tomas

    Jan 11, 2013, 7:12 #30696

    HavIng Messi in Your ranks guaranteeing titles is the most popular misconception amongst Messi's fans all over. Argentina's failure to do so is proof positive of that. It's not like Argentina's national team is short on talent either, featuring some of the most exiting players in world football. Players like Di Maria, Mascherano, Higuain, Tevez and Aguero to name the few. Messi might be the best player in the world , but with supporting cast like that of Barca's it's difficult to decide who makes who indispensable .His ability to take over games is legendary but it's not unusual for him to to coast sometimes for minutes at a time while his teammates are dismantling opposing sides and running them ragged just enough for Messi to jump into action and do his magic. Maradona won the World Cup with supporting cast of lesser quality and until Messi wins his , There will always be some to question his greatness .

  32. Paul

    Jan 11, 2013, 6:35 #30695

    Messi is the best player in the world no doubt but at Barca he is also surrounded by great players Iniesta Xavi and Cesc.Barca dont have Walcott Giroud Ramsey and Gervinho playing for them.We had a world class player last season in RVP and finished 19 points behind the top 2.Arsenal could have Messi and Ronaldo playing for us but as long as we have Inspector Clouseau managing us we will NEVER ever win another trophy(i dont call 4th a trophy!!)

  33. Deksissa

    Jan 11, 2013, 6:18 #30694

    Arsene is simply board guardian, not football club managaer, not anymore!

  34. GaryFootscrayAustralia

    Jan 11, 2013, 6:02 #30693

    "LOL" at the pic, as the grammatically challenged might say. Reminds me of that excellent satire of old - style Victor war comic strips found in another fanzine entitled "H.M.S. Arsenal". As for Messi guaranteeing a title, I'm guessing your assertion is tongue - in - cheek. With the exception of Wilshere, Cazorla, and arguably Arteta, we don't possess the right balance of tactical and technical attributes across the squad able to both supply and complement the boy's genius.