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1. GoonerRon

   Apr 08, 2013, 21:08 #33888

   @ Spectrum - I love Arsenal as much as the next man but I think comparing us with Bayern is a bit like comparing an ear muff with a pigeon. The fact is they are a much, much bigger club than us despite the relative comparison you made. They undoubtedly fit the blueprint of a well run club and I'm sure there are things that we could learn from them on and off the field. They probably have got better bang for their buck but whose to say they wouldn't have also delivered trophies had they stuck with Klinnsman? It would be interesting is to compare us to Bayern in 1996 in terms of stadium capacity, corporate boxes, income and see how far we have come in closing the gap under Wenger's stewardship. One last thing (and I hate to be pedantic) but based on exchange rates their stadium cost a cool £100m less than ours - that is roughly equivalent to the combined fees they paid for Gomez, Robben, Ribery and Javi Martinez).

2. Northern Gooner

   Apr 08, 2013, 12:25 #33868

   And what place in the table did we finnish during the 70s and the mid-80s and the other spells without trophies? Did we manage top three, top four?

3. Ronster

   Apr 08, 2013, 9:34 #33861

   Let's bust another 'Myth'.....FFP will not exonerate Wenger.The American insurance giant AON has just announced it will sponsor the champions elect Manchester United's Carrington training ground to the tune of £120 million over 8 years.These are not petrol dollars....it has been secured through success on the pitch.That's winning trophies!

4. Spectrum

   Apr 08, 2013, 9:16 #33860

   What is behind the decline of Arsenal F.C. ? Let’s take an example from the team that knocked us out of the C.L. The parallels between Bayern Munich and Arsenal are quite remarkable in a number of aspects, except of course, in terms of success on the pitch. Interesting that the club that has romped to the Bundesliga championship with six games to spare, have also won that league four times in the last eight years since the 2005-2006 season . The same time period that Wenger has been in charge of the Gunners. “Ah, but you can’t compare Arsenal with them.” I hear the A.K.B.’s exclaim. “We’ve had a new stadium to contend with”. Well so have Bayern. Those parallels I mentioned ? … both stadiums opened within a year of each other, both the Allianz and Emirates’ construction costs were similar ( Allianz 340 million Euros, Emirates 390 million pounds.) Gate / corporate match day takings – similar capacities when first opened – Bayern’s expanded since. But Arsenal have more executive suites ( boxes ) ( 152 ) to Bayern’s 106 . Bayern are privately owned. So are Arsenal. Last year Arsenal were the fourth richest club in the world. Bayern were the fifth richest club in the world. I don’t have the figures to hand, but Bayern’s wage bill would not be bigger than ours, and is likely less, I suspect. Both clubs have good modern youth and training facilities. And like us, ( quote ) ” Bayern is an exception in professional, international football, having generated profits in nine of the last ten seasons. ” ( end quote ) So we can’t use the stadium cost and lack of resources as an excuse for non achievement. That leaves the onfield performance record. It’s here that a definite divergence occurs. Where can we pinpoint this divergence ? Hmmm. Let’s take a closer look, “Bayern finished the 2006–07 season fourth, thus failing to qualify for the Champions League for the first time in more than a decade”. ( Again we have a comparison with Arsenal’s current and future (?) situation ). More losses in the cup and the League Cup, left the club with no honours for the season. So they sacked the then coach Jurgen Klinsman, eventually hired Luis Van Gaal – who proceeded to spend big on quality recruits such as Arjen Robben and Mario Gomez, and the successes started to flow. Subsequent managers in Jonker and Heynckes, continued the run, with as I said earlier, four titles – as well as a number of domestic cups. Now they’ve employed Pep Guardiola. The result of this success ? ( quote ) ; “As a result of Bayern’s finals appearance in the 2012 UEFA Champions League, the club’s brand value has reached $786 million USD which is up 59 percent from the previous year. Among European teams this is ahead of Real Madrid’s $600 million USD and behind first place Manchester United whose brand is valued at $853 million USD “. The moral of this story is ; given very similar resources, Bayern are doing far better than us, because they were willing to take a chance on change, were willing to spend big ( but responsibly ) and thereby reaped the ( considerable ) rewards in trophies, and increased brand value ( prestige ). In short, they showed AMBITION and bravely BROKE WITH THE PAST. When will we ? ” In Arsene we rust.” ( info. & quotes from Wikipedia )

5. Chris

   Apr 07, 2013, 22:22 #33855

   GoonerRon - my wholehearted congratulations on excellently dealing with Spectrum. I think he's new to these parts (might be wrong) but if you are familar with him from 'Arsenal Truth'you will know that his main debating taxtics are: 1) claim he has 'easily dealt with' the comments of his 'vonfused, irrational' opponents (without any evidence of having done so); 2) state that anyone who doesn't want Wenger remoed - even if by means of violent revolition - is a treasonous enemy of the club & should silenced by wahtever measn are available; 3) use without any apparent self-awareness an 'InArsene we rust' strap line so boring & lacking in wit that it has been banned from one of the most popular Arsenal websiyes (check out the comments policy for 'Arseblog news'). In short, he's all rather agressive, arrogant and militant bluster with, I suspect, very little to back it up in life.

6. Ronster

   Apr 07, 2013, 22:04 #33853

   Wenger has always put himself on a pedestal...only securing a trophy in 8 of the 29 seasons he has managed a club should see him realistically polishing the shoes of Sir Alex and 'The Special One'.

7. Chris

   Apr 07, 2013, 21:31 #33851

   Spectrum - I didn;t think you were on 'my side'? YOu might as well be becuase the first half of your post 36544 is as good a defence of Wenger as i could muster! The reason we are only six points behind Man City is beucase we've got a MUCH better manager than them. The fact we're only six points behind, given our relatively meadgre resources, says it all - we've done incredibly well with what we've spent. What the debate REALLY boils down to is this - those that want Wenger out lack the ability to to hold in their mind the underlying causes of th edecline and the over-arching reality of our continued relative success, combined with a docrine that tells them anyone who disagrees with them (who shall be labelled 'AKBs' to isolate and identify them) is either disingenuos, blind, lacks the capacity for free thought or otherwise impaired. A pretty poor basis for any meaningful debate, I'd've thought.

8. Chris

   Apr 07, 2013, 21:18 #33848

   Theo, Theo, Theo - here you go ago! I'll repeat - the issue of whether theere has been a decline in the standards of the premier peague is irrlelevant - by focussing on that historical thread you are merely using diversion tactics. To keep us on track, let's say I concede that the PL has delcined in standard (I don't necessarily agree but I'll take it on the chin becuase my comment about'subjective opinion' has obviously riled you). The fact still remains that in order to restrict that decline to the level it has reached, our competitors have had to spend up to half a billion more than us over the past five years (yes Spectrum, that figure is correct - no 'AKB exaggeration' - you are just demonstrating your typical AMG half witted selective credulity). We've lost big players, so have they. Our replacements have been a little substandard - because we couldn't afford the 'next level' players that would have been the appropriate replacments for RVP, Fab & Nas (although I'd actually suggest Cazorla is more than good enough to replace Nasri). Oh - and as for not rpleying to your 'I can't be proved wrong' comment abot Chamakh - that's beucase I had nothing left to add. You had beautifully revealed yourself as someone who cares about being 'right' more than about the spirit of the debate. I thought anything I added could only spoil the moment.

9. Chris

   Apr 07, 2013, 21:01 #33847

   Stroud Grren Road Boy - is that me or Arsene you're referring to? I'd actually suggest that despite my obvious tongue-in-cheek provocations, it's you your comment should be aimed at - picking up on indiviudal phrases, removing then from context and then trying to make something out of nothing. As I pointed out, the money is still there if it ever was for Wenger - if he hasn't spent it, that's good - unless it's stolen through criminal activty or dividend.

10. Ronster

    Apr 07, 2013, 17:41 #33839

    Wenger has failed to win a European trophy in 24 attempts (he had 2 goes in 1999-2000).Bertie Mee won the FAIRS Cup in his FIRST season in Europe and George Graham bagged the Cup Winners Cup in his SECOND season in Europe...Spectrum,over to you me old son...finish 'em off!

11. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Apr 07, 2013, 16:57 #33836

    "Nice work Arsene!" So Chris is now praising Wenger for things he hasn't done, but will 'inevitably' do. The bloke has become a parody of himself.

12. GoonerRon

    Apr 07, 2013, 16:36 #33833

    @ Spectrum - you call my suggestions feeble, I call them the antithesis of silence which was your original claim. They didn't take long to come up with, that could be because they weren't things from the PAST but more CURRENT so nice and fresh in my mind. As for others 'dealing with them easily', they are all statements of fact so not much to deal with as far as I can see. Your point on Cazorla is totally irrelevant - the fact is we did buy him and as you acknowledged (presumably through gritted teeth) he has been an excellent addition. As for your latter posts, you come across as very arrogant. To say because I still support Wenger means I have a cult mentality and a pathological refusal to face facts is just such bollocks its not even funny. I have regularly said on here that 8 years without a trophy is not acceptable and that many things the manager does frustrate me but have also provided a host of reasons why I choose to support the manager at this time. In doing so I have empathised with those who have ran out of patience with the manager, acknowledging that keeping faith for some is just a step to far. For an 'independent minded free thinker' you actually needed someone to highlight ONE SINGLE good thing that Wenger CURRENTLY does - the irony is so thick you could choke on it.

13. Spectrum

    Apr 07, 2013, 13:23 #33829

    Correction to my post at 9.11a.m. It was Gibbs who was injured and replaced by Monreal, not Santos. "In Arsene we rust."

14. Spectrum

    Apr 07, 2013, 12:48 #33826

    Gooner Ron - ...."we have been in the latter stages of all competitions during this period and to me, that is 'competing'. No, Gooner Ron,that's merely participating, NOT competing. There's a huge difference.Competing means doing EVERYTHING possible to achieve your goal, which we're clearly not doing. Participating is simply being IN IT; playing matches when we don't have a realistic chance of going all the way - because we handicap ourselves through our lack of ambition. And repeated neglectful ineptitude from the one that is in charge of this charade every season. Little wonder I keep stating ; "In Arsene we rust."

15. Spectrum

    Apr 07, 2013, 12:37 #33825

    What the debate boils down to is this. The clear line of demarcation between the realists and the A.K.B.'s, is that realists are independent minded free thinkers, willing to consider all the facts before making up their mind on an issue, and have no difficulty deciding which path to follow after having done so. We also don't allow our sentimental affection /emotional attachment to one man override common sense and the interests of our club. A club which is bigger than a manager and always will be. ANY manager, not just Wenger. A.K.B.'s on the other hand, are willing victims of a cult mentality and don't realise it. Basically they're elevating the man above the club by their dogged resistance to change. Thereby depriving Arsenal of experiencing hope and success anytime soon.They have an almost pathological inability, even refusal, to face facts even when contrary evidence is presented to them. And to see the bigger picture - incapable of seeing events at Arsenal in their correct context. For example - Our latest unbeaten run is no doubt exciting them. But we've had these before, and invariably when it's too late to mean anything. Unless fourth is all that matters, which is the expectation that their Great Leader has indoctrinated them in. To summarise, they have been schooled into accepting mediocrity and are content with low expectations of success, despite "hoping" for it every season. And they never disappoint themselves. "In Arsene we rust."

16. Spectrum

    Apr 07, 2013, 11:58 #33823

    Chris - according to you and other A.K.B.'s we can't compete with the mega rich clubs like Chelsea and City. How come then, that we're only six points behind them ? Perhaps it's because though having the best players helps ( a lot ) success still comes through players' individual and collective desire and dedication ( which top players tend to inherently possess more of ), and the ability of the coach to correctly man manage and motivate them,with the appropriate application of tactics*. ( *Wenger has shamefully admitted before the Spurs match that he doesn't bother with tactics, that he doesn't plan for, or worry about opposition player threats ).City threw "half a billion at winning the E.P.L." ? Garbage. A typical A.K.B. gross exaggeration designed to excuse us from trying to compete with them. And if THEY sank without trace ( compared to Utd.,I take it you mean )then what does that say about OUR predicament ? - we're 24 points from them - wakey wakey ! "Unspent reserves that can be spent at a later date "? That's just you speculating. The way you're putting it, is that you think Wenger is "strategically" saving up his cash to one day surprise us in a 100 million spend-a-thon. When has that EVER happened ? We all know that does not describe Wenger's modus operandi. It's simply not in his character.So why mention a red herring like that ? And the old fallback ; "none of us know what goes on behind the scenes". True to a point, but whatever IS going on, sure hasn't and doesn't, satisfy the supporters does it ? Not those who care enough to question, anyway. "In Arsene we rust."

17. Spectrum

    Apr 07, 2013, 9:11 #33808

    Gooner Ron - The points you used in your reply to me are pretty feeble. How many hours did you to rack your brain to come up with them ? And that's the best you could do ? Most of them have been easily dealt with by my fellow realists on here, but I'd like to point out that if you see us finishing top four every year as an accomplishment for Wenger to be admired for, then you've fallen into the trap of accepting mediocrity as our new standard of attainment. And that is a loser's mindset.The board via the mouthpiece of their puppet Wenger, have lowered our expectations with their lies and spin, and A.K.B.'s have been suckered right along by it. Leaving out the main and REAL rationale (i.e. profits ),making the C.L. footballing wise - is only worthwhile if we have a chance of realistically WINNING the damn thing ! We don't.Partly because Wenger refuses to spend money on the world class players necessary to enable us to have a chance at it. Which leads me on to the related point of yours about Wenger bringing in Cazorla and Monreal. Firstly although Cazorla is an excellent addition, knowing Wenger's spending habits, do you REALLY think he would have bought him if Malaga hadn't let him go cheap in a fire sale,due to them desperately needing the funds ? I don't think so. His was a classic Wenger signing ; loiter around for hours outside the thrift store hoping to find a bargain. And he got lucky on that occasion. Monreal? We signed him ONLY repeat ONLY, because we were desperate for a left back to replace Santos ( whom we only signed at the last minute because the Brazilian was injured. Otherwise we hadn't intended to bring in anyone AT ALL ( again ! ) Santos has turned out to be one of the worst recruits we've ever made - vying for that dubious "honour" with Park Chu-Young ( remember him ? ) And who signed Santos....? Oh yeah...Wenger and our much vaunted scouting system. The same scouting system that missed spotting Michu for instance. And we also needed cover for Gibbs who is fast turning into another injury prone crock like Diaby. Both Gibbs and Diaby should be jettisoned. For a man who has an economics degree, how come he can't see what the rest of us can - that they're expensive passengers that contribute little, because they're rarely available to play! We don't attract world class players because Wenger won't pay the market rate for them, even though we CAN afford them. That won't change, whether we're in the C.L. or not. Wenger hates spending big. Look at his track record.The most we've EVER spent was 15 mill on Arshavin. Having said that, there ARE players ( on the next level down ) who could do a job for us, that are bargains, but we go for the wrong ones, or ignore them altogether. On Wilshere - good player, but he and Ashley Cole ( so far ) are the only two graduates from our Youth Academy for many years. But there have been many more who didn't make the grade.Instead, they're mostly out on loan or clogging up the wage bill - because Wenger collects kids like a stamp collector. Walcott ? - Amazing what playing for a contract can do, eh ? Yet now after he's signed his extension, how has he performed ? He's reverted to his former average self. But now he's on a much enlarged salary and conditions. Yet no doubt you, like Wenger were so keen to get him re-signed. As if he was the next Lionel Messi ! No, Gooner Ron, you'll have to come up with better justification than what you provided. For every "plus" you proposed, there's a dozen reasons why he's failed. I stated that ( quote ); "I've yet to have even one of them give a solid, detailed and meaningful reply to this".I stand by that. "In Arsene we rust."

18. GoonerRon

    Apr 06, 2013, 20:21 #33804

    @Theo - granted there are players on the wage bill who arent delivering value, of that there is no doubt, but our wage bill isnt obscene in the context of the top 4 or 5 highest wage bills, an equivalent position to which we consistently operate in the league. It is also offset and partially mitigated by our moderate net transfer spend. You say we're barely credible 4th place contenders yet here we are one point off third. The weakened league suggestion is irrelevant as the same 20 clubs play the same 19 clubs twice over the course of a season. As I keep saying, Spectrum said those in support of Wenger only have silence when it comes to recent or current good things he's done, I think I've proved that not to be the case, irrespective of whether you deem them to be minor or not.

19. Theo Jensen

    Apr 06, 2013, 19:03 #33801

    @Chris How convenient... I didn't go over old ground in that comment I simply responded to points you had made. You made out like Chelsea won the CL through skill, for example, when in fact the stats highlight a complete demonstration of anti-football. You left it in the same manner, and I could cite many more examples here, where you said I was being "proven wrong" over my suggestion that Chamakh may have had greater potential than Giroud, to which I pointed out it can't be proven wrong that Chamakh would have done worse. No reply. GoonerRon only responded to one of my points, so presumably he didn't feel there were answers to the others, and he did say it was the minor things he was focusing on. Now, rather than sum up with more conjecture several points I made, through the conduit of you addressing ONE point, you again would do better to yourself avoid the kind of 'diversionary' tactics you continue to employ. So to address the ONE point you made in this thread and with reference to the Red Queen analogy therein, you make a presupposition in saying that a certain level of relative investment was necessary to maintain (near) equity with the other big clubs in the league, ahead of a supposedly inevitable collapse across the board. The correlation appears to be that since 2009 as more star players have left with mostly inadequate replacements the standard has gone down. Consider that Juan Mata was available more cheaply than Samir Nasri, but Gervinho and AOC were the closest we saw to replacements- same calibre? So if we had simply maintained the best players that we've sold OR had bought in players of an equal or higher calibre it follows, in theory at least, that the 2009 level (Champions League Semi-finalists) would have been maintained or bettered with even a negative net spend. I doubt you did really want Wenger to leave as you invariably conclude that whatever issue he is not reprehensible. I'm going to leave it there and won't check back to see what you write. This is because you repeatedly fight until you've run out of reasonable arguments at which point you don't reply. You're a great debater in terms of the tactics, persistence etc. but you can't address my points to the end and choose silence thereafter, rather than a concession. This is why generally I find it pointless debating with you on here, though I have many times done so (to the end...). I guess my "subjective opinion" isn't for everyone and won't always have its reason seen, but still, I think we can all at least agree on everyone here having really enjoyed the English clubs' performances in the Champions League quarter-finals this season...

20. Chris

    Apr 06, 2013, 17:18 #33800

    @Theo Should I take it as an admission that you can’t answer my point that you respond to a perfectly reasoned argument I have made about why the relative strength of the league is irrelevant (Post No. 36505) by attacking my character (or at least, debating behaviour), claiming I haven’t made a reasoned argument or tried to back up my assertions, and referring to an imaginary ‘victory’ you like to imagine you had in a thread three months ago... A re-reading of that thread reveals that: Firstly, I did respond to several of your responses, I didn’t respond to your last one because you were going over the same ground using detailed anecdotes and I had engaged others by then . Secondly, crucially, that debate was about whether the PL had indeed plummeted in quality – whereas the point I’ve made here is that the absolute level of the PL is irrelevant, because whether it’s gone up or down that level is still a consequence of huge investment by our competitors that we can’t compete with. You have to invest just to stay where you are (or even to decline in quality if you were extremely good before). So the decline (if indeed there has been one) doesn’t invalidate arguments based on performance relative to expenditure. Why not answer my points put in this thread, in response to your baseless attack on GoonerRon & subsequently, instead of, as I have mentioned in previous comments and again demonstrate here, using all sorts of diversionary tactics to avoid doing so? If you don’t misunderstand what I’m saying, point out where I’m wrong (e.g. with the Red Queen analogy). To say I’ve failed to provide a line of argument seems a bit off when you haven’t bothered to even address the one I did make and your last sentence seems a little ironic in the circumstances. You say it doesn’t make any sense to say I’d be predisposed to wanting Wenger to leave –well, it doesn’t make any sense to accuse me of the reverse seeing as I DID want him to leave some years ago, as I mentioned above, before I’d looked into the facts surrounding the club and relative quality of the team.

21. Chris

    Apr 06, 2013, 14:24 #33798

    Green Hut - I didn't ignore your point about Park - that was covered under the 'anecdote' repsonse (ie all clubs make costly mistakes but you hope that over all they will be outweighed by the good decisions, as at Arsenal). Yes, there was clearly a misjudgement there (although your AMG trailblaiser Myles Palmer is adamant that he was purely a Gazidis signing, hence Wenger refusing to play him) but my point remains, that over all Arsenal are still making efficient use of resources. I too know which of the two measures that we are using gives a more accurate measure of achievement - mine. Yours might if the resources not epxneded disappeared into thin air but, barring fraud, theft or investment diaster (or a Kroneke dividend..), that's not going to happen. So, those unexpended resources need to be offset against future purchases and subseuqent successes, which will, inevitably, occur at a time when the money is worth more - both in terms of market prices and the relative spending power of our competitors. Nice work Arsene!

22. Green Hut

    Apr 06, 2013, 12:22 #33797

    Chris- The difference between us is that I judge Wenger on his use (or non-use) of all the resources available whilst you judge him solely on the portion of those resources that he decides to utilise. I know which one I believe gives a far more fair and accurate measure of Wenger's recent achievements. Re your question, you ignored my relevant point about Park Chu-Young.

23. Theo Jensen

    Apr 06, 2013, 11:31 #33796

    @Chris I think you'll find what is important is how, not what you think. I'll take it as indicative that you left mention of the EPL's standards, as you didn't have an argument before either so chose not to comment. It's easy to make an assertion, the trick is to try and back it up... It doesn't even make sense to say that I'd be predisposed to want Wenger to leave- why would I? This is someone who's provided me with some of my best memories. I already said I'd prefer to see him turn it around. I've never been accused by anyone else on here of misrepresentation or misunderstanding so maybe that again says more about your continued assertions without reason in company... Though, ironically, you accuse me of being reprehensible for you not being an AMG, against my alleged desires. I don't care? The fact that your 'arguments' invariably support Wenger speaks for itself (mine USED TO by the way...). So you enjoy yourself. Just try and show me a line of reason in future and understand my arguments, with an open mind about any issue, if you insist on attacking me through these comments that is...

24. Chris

    Apr 06, 2013, 10:44 #33795

    @Green Hut - fair enough, I accept that in its literal sense 'nothing is squandered' makes no sense, but that's not what I meant and as my argument goes on to point out, ALL managers and clubs waste some money. The sense in which 'nothing is squandered' is that an analysis of success versus expendiutre reveals Arsenal are making better use of resources spent than other clubs - i.e. they are squandering less. As for the clubs accounts - they confirm there are sibstantial cash reserves and have been for sometime. They don't revela what's available to Wenger because we don't know the policy of the club. I'm not ignoring the statements PHW et al have made in the past stating that money is available - but neither do I give them more weight than the statements to the contrary that Wenger has made, even recently. Perhaps no one would have been bought beucase the players Wenger wanted last winter weren't available then and he still thought we could qualify for the CL without them, rather than wasting money on other players? I fully expect good signings and strengthening next summer- if not, I'll concede I was wrong. Oh - and what relevant questions have I ignored form you? Making vague, general accusations like that do't strengthen your hand. Finally, I still don't see what you are saying about it being easier to spend less and achieve less. What I DO know is that it cost Man City, with an above average but not great manager, half billion pounds to win the title before dropping away dramatically. Wenger is a better manager than Mancini so I'm sure we could have achieved the same with much less but we still overachieve with what we spent, which is not easy at all - ask Liverpool.....

25. Chris

    Apr 06, 2013, 10:24 #33794

    @Theo - what was the second point you're referring to? I'm happy to re-address my views when the new facts require that - it seems a peculair arrogance to suggest that becuase I haven't 'come over' to your side, I lack flexibility of thought. The 'flexibility of thought' I've observed from you involves complex, convoluted thought patterns and arguments clearly designed to come to a conclusion that supports your own position rather than to reveal a 'truth'. True flexibility of thought involves the ability to truly engage with and understand the opposing view point - something that you, amongst others, have repeated used all sorts of tactics to avoid doing. Anynway, you're right - there isn't much point in debating with me because GoonerRon is presenting what I consider to be a 'realist' argument in a much more balanced and reasonable fashion than I can muster in the circumstances, so I'll leave it to him.

26. Theo Jensen

    Apr 06, 2013, 7:04 #33793

    @Gooner Ron, for me, the fact that the operating loss is so massive due to the obscene wage bill, the deadwood players weight on the club's finances, the fact we're barely credible fourth place contenders in a seriously weakened league, to name but a few major factors, overshadows the minor things Wenger is still doing well.

27. Theo Jensen

    Apr 06, 2013, 6:49 #33792

    @Chris that 'subjective opinion' is based on facts mainly. And you were not able to answer my points on the article 'Metal Giroud' as I recall- you answered the first response I made but not the second, both of which dealt with the weakness of the Premier League. You've basically left it long enough that now you think coming out afresh, it's all there to debate again like it was never dealt with before... I'm not really sure what the merits of debating you are anyway. You'll never accept any argument that advocates Wenger leaving as you're a cult member of his. You've already made your conclusion. I loved Wenger as much as anyone until recently, but then I think flexibility of thought it something important for anyone to have. It's certainly seems to be lacking amongst his apologists.

28. Green Hut

    Apr 05, 2013, 23:51 #33791

    Chris- I'm used to you not answering my relevant questions but I'll answer your unneccesary one. 'It's much easier to spend less and achieve less' simply and obviously means that less expenditure leads to less expectation and readily available excuses for failure. It also gives the more gullible fans amongst us reason to call for more of the same, year after year. You can't compare what Wenger achieves per spend with other managers without factoring what he doesn't spend, you simply aren't comparing like for like. For him to tell us on Feb 1st that he wouldn't have bought anyone in the transfer window if Gibbs hadn't got injured was galling in the extreme considering where we were in the league and the fact that he told us in December that there was money to spend and that he was going to be 'very busy' in Jan. Maybe he doesn't trust his own judgement any more, and I agree that all managers have messed up in the transfer market on occasion, but you said that 'nothing is squandered' by Wenger financially. That is ridiculously untrue. Another point I would agree with is that stats and facts are important, and the club accounts confirm that Wenger has considerable money to spend time after time, but if you choose to ignore all public statements, or 'anecdotes', that differ from your point of view, then you will remain as entrenched as Wenger. As for the self-imposed budget, I guess everything he has ever said over 16 years about money in football and the ethical, prudent way he wants to pursue success has been lost on you, so I'm sure you'll keep on believing what you feel comfortable believing. And if Wenger is sacrificing today for the fantasy of FFP then he deserves to sacked just for that, can't wait to see how Platini handles PSG's new £120m a year sponsorship deal. Chris I think we've got a pretty good idea what goes on at the club, even if you ignore most of it.

29. GoonerRon

    Apr 05, 2013, 20:42 #33789

    @ Theo - the thing is the set of reasons on which you base your decision to override the emotional attachment to Wenger are interpreted differently to others and that interpretation can be subjective. in the context of this debate spectrum said "What is Wenger CURRENTLY, repeat CURRENTLY, doing well" to which I responded with a number of suggestions. Now you're telling me it doesn't seem that cogent to look at the peripheral things that are done well. It appears that I can't win.

30. Chris

    Apr 05, 2013, 20:22 #33788

    Green Hut - 'It's much easier to spend less and achieve less.' What do you mean by this? Seriously, that comment is as vague as they come and needs clarification. Especially given that Man City had to throw half a billion at winning the PL before sinking without trace this season... You may have a point, but I'm not sure what you mean. As I pointed out, Wenger still eeks more out fo his expenditure than any other manger. You could look at ANY manager's spending and find wastage (Bebe, anyone?). Only the stats give us the turth - not your anecdotes. The budget, of course, isn't self-imposed no matter how you like to dress up the cash reserves. Or at least - if there are unspent reserves, it's only so they can be spent with more impact at a later date. The turth is that niether you or I KNOW the ins and outs of the clubs inner workings.

31. Green Hut

    Apr 05, 2013, 19:46 #33787

    Chris- Had a double take when I saw you'd written 'nothing is squandered' by Wenger financially, but yep, you did actually type it. Obviously there are many examples, but could you please tell me how the £5.5m impairment fee that the club declared in October's accounts, that wrote off the wage value of Park Chu-Young and was an admission that the club will not recover a penny by selling him, was anything other than a disgraceful example of Wenger squandering the club's money? As Stroud Green Road Boy said, the budget (transfers and wages) that you try to use to defend Wenger with is self-imposed so I fail to see how you can possibly credit him with 'unparalleled efficiency' re our resources when 1) He doesn't use all the resources available to him, and 2) He doesn't win anything. As I've said before, it's much easier to spend less and achieve less, and I don't see other MDs constantly and publicly telling their managers that they have money to spend. Wenger chooses a different path and maybe his moral code is the winner but us fans are definitely the losers. I would mention tactics and players but apparently it's all gubbins.

32. Chris

    Apr 05, 2013, 19:46 #33786

    @Theo - since when did your subjective opinion about the over all quality of the Premier League over rule the statistical truths that can still be demonstrated to hold? Have you ever heard of the Red Queen hypothesis? If Wenger didn't continue to make the most of the limited resources available to him, we would have sunk without trace by now (you have to run as fast as you can just to stay where you are' when you opponents are constantly evolving - ie have almost unlimited ability to improve their squad). The absolute level of quality of the rivals is irrelevant - only our quality compared to theirs - and that is limited by resources available to us compared to them, I'm afraid to say.

33. Theo Jensen

    Apr 05, 2013, 19:36 #33785

    @Gooner Ron, the difference is that everyone USED to be an AKB (including myself obviously). Therefore, it's extremely rare that an AMG is someone who has an agenda in the same way- it's based on a set of reasons which override the emotional attachment to Wenger. I'd prefer Wenger to turn it around personally, despite the decline he's manufactured. I said that United were interested in them and that they joined because they supported Arsenal, both are factual statements. You said "[Wenger] has made two league one players into England internationals" as if they were to languish there were it not for him, that was the original response. As for them getting more chances; sure, that's definitely a factor. But I don't have problem granting him credit for that? It just doesn't seem like a substantial achievement. I mean set against the fact we're barely credible contenders for fourth place in a league that is probably inferior to even Serie A right now, it doesn't seem that cogent to look at the peripheral things that are done well.

34. Theo Jensen

    Apr 05, 2013, 18:11 #33784

    Chris... Nothing is squandered? So you're happy with Park, Chamakh, Santos, Squillaci etc. are you? Been great additions to the squad have they and really useful players for us? Not on massive wages with no resale value? And as I've said before, those stats are meaningless because the EPL is the weakest it has been for years. If you really think Arsenal can't compete with a City team who can't even beat Ajax or a Chelsea side that isn't of an ilk high enough to register group stage qualification in the Champions League then you're deluding yourself.

35. Pointless

    Apr 05, 2013, 18:11 #33783

    I don't see the point in this article. Most of this we knew anyway!

36. GoonerRon

    Apr 05, 2013, 18:08 #33782

    @ Theo - So you're basically unwilling to give Wenger any single ounce of credit in relation to AOC and Jenks? They became internationals under him but Man U wanted them = no credit to Wenger. Wenger secured them ahead of Ferguson and Man U but they were Arsenal fans = no credit to Wenger. Is it beyond your seemingly anti-Wenger agenda driven mind to accept that they came because the manager has a track record of giving young players a chance, perhaps more than any other manager? AKB's get pilloried for apparently refusing to listening to the dissenters, yet here you are unwilling to give a modicum of credit in a situation that probably deserves it. Are you afraid your fellow haters might turn on you?

37. Chris

    Apr 05, 2013, 17:04 #33780

    @ Stroud Green Road Boy "1) Wenger CHOOSES to have the lowest net transfer spend in the league." Just like you CHOOSE to deliberately misunderstand the clubs finances, to manufacture an anti-Wenger argument? Wenger has a budget for player costs (transfers and wages). The fact he has a relatively high wage bill is offset by the lack of spending on players. This is how he decides to maximum the benefit from his over all resources. And as I have demonstrated many times before, he does this more efficiently than any other top manager / club. And this is one reason by your cherry-picking Man Utd's wages over total expenditure is 'see-through spin'. As for Monreal & Cazorla 'mere squad players' - well Monreal was MotM in their vital qualifier against France in the eyes of many, whilst Cazorla sits on the Spanish bench alongside the lies of Fabregas and Silva - hardly a shoddy squad, is it? @ Theo - see comment above re finances. Nothing is squandered, as Wenger's unparalleled efficiency continues to demonstrate. @Spectrum - I for one am one who turned from thinking Wenger's time was up some years ago to supporting him now - because I took stock and looked at the FACTS (not opinions about tactics, players and all that other gubbins) and realised how well he continued to do in difficult circumstances.

38. Theo Jensen

    Apr 05, 2013, 13:51 #33774

    @Gooner Ron, well they were both Arsenal supporters so that's probably why. Same for all the players given extensions. Wilshere said he thought we'd win trophies and that the trophy drought is just temporary- I do definitely agree with you that it's better to have them all tied to longer deals, for sure, I just wouldn't look at it as a substantial success for Wenger's reign given the decline that's been manufactured.

39. Ron

    Apr 05, 2013, 13:35 #33772

    Im of the view that any player that does get a long term contract at Arsenal signs it with the Club giving a knowing nod to the said player, effectively saying 'yes, youve now signed and thank you, but be assured that for the right offer, from the right Club for you, we ll let you go Son'. We saw this with Henry and from then any player with a clear sell on value has been given a decent contract on this basis in my view. Wilshere will be gone inside 2 years in my opinion (Man U beckons), unless we see a massive sea change in the Clubs approach in the meantime. As for the 'net spend' debate. Its a pointless, red herring misnomer fostered by Wenger. Its not what Wenger hasnt spent thats been his downfall, its what he has spent on dross that has. look at the total donkeys hes spent big money on. Its now a long list and theres no escaping it. The players hes missed at good prices that he could have got in a League that, lets face it, been rapidly declining in quality for some years is shameful. Alonso, Schwartzer, Freidel, Given. Mata maybe. Cahill, Parker to name just a few who are far superior to what Wengers brought in and persisted with over the last 6 years or so.

40. GoonerRon

    Apr 05, 2013, 12:43 #33769

    @ Stroud Green Road Boy - I'm not spinning anything by combining the spend, it just made it shorter to write. If you'd prefer individually then it's Chelsea £500m, Man C £500m and Man U £250m. Did I at any point say Theo was a 'great player?' No, I am simply highlighting something that Wenger has done well (as per the very specific criteria of the post I was responding to) in terms of Theo's undoubted improvement. @ Theo Jensen - ok, so Man U wanted Jenks and AOC but we managed to get them ahead of biggest club in the country instead. Is that not a good thing that Wenger has done well, and recently? So the long term contracts are to ensure the club gets a resale value on them? Presumably you would prefer for them to not get long contracts and for their value to be diminished? Of course they aren't guarantees that we keep them indefinitely. You show my any player contract that does. All I know is would any Arsenal supporter prefer for Wilshere to have a long term contract or not? Bear in mind it was signed under the current 'regime' with the current manager and it the midst of a 'trophy drought' - so either Wilshere believes we can win things or that he is committed to staying in any case. You can dispute what I've put all you want, I just wanted highlight that Spectrum's broad brush assertion that those of us who still want Wenger to remain in the job don't have any viable argument might just be wrong.

41. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Apr 05, 2013, 9:48 #33767

    @GoonerRon 1) Wenger CHOOSES to have the lowest net transfer spend in the league. Unlesss you believe he has less to spend on transfers than every other club in the league? Don't know why you're praising him for tying one arm behind his own back. And you're comparing our spend to Chelsea, Man C and Man U combined?? See-through spin worthy of Wenger himself. How about our wage bill being not far behind Man U's. 2) Those 'Spanish international regulars' are in fact squad players. 3) These players have huge question marks over their potential and quality. 4) Barring Wilshire, see 3). 5) And has just, once again, run Wilshire into the ground until he's got injured. And how long do you think he'll stay at AFC if the status quo you are defending continues? 6) If you think those stats mean Walcott has turned into a great player who's achieved his potential, then good luck to you. Wenger's continued presence is damaging our club.

42. Ronster

    Apr 05, 2013, 9:18 #33766

    When the title hasn't been delivered,Wenger has only finished in single figures points wise behind the champions on four occasions:1997-7pts;1999-1pt;2003-5pts;2008-4pts. Indeed with the exceptional players bequeathed to him by Graham,Rioch and the coaches at the French youth academy he finished a distant 18 points behind in 2000 and 10 points behind in 2001.

43. Theo Jensen

    Apr 05, 2013, 9:15 #33765

    @Gooner Ron- 1) he's squandered Arsenal's chances of challenging for higher honours because of his poor tactics, judgement of squad strength and poor transfer policy. Those figures are misleading since regardless the EPL is seriously weak, so if he hadn't manufactured a decline for our club we'd be comfortably winning trophies anyway, in theory at least... 2)Cazorla and Monreal came because of Malaga's financial difficulties. Where are these other stars? 3)You argued this the other day, it was pointed out that United were after both players, so I doubt they were just going to dwindle in League One indefinitely were it not for Wenger. 4)Kosc. is a sub for France, rarely more. Szcz, Ryo, Ramsey= Poland, Japan and Wales- not the strongest international sides. Wilshere was a good player straight from the youth team- to address the following point you're right that the scouting system is no more... but where are the other great youth team products? Gibbs only has 2 apps for England. 5) Those long term contracts are to ensure the club gets a resale value on them. They aren't guarantees that we keep them indefinitely. How many of them are tied up past the age of 26?

44. Alsace Lorraine de Totteridge

    Apr 05, 2013, 0:05 #33764

    Lots of complaints about the same articles and comments, but we are all just marking time, waiting for the day when we can get on with enjoyment of our football club again. I daydream about turning on the news and finding that he has had an argument over who has the right of way with an articulated lorry. Sternly he wags his finger at the lorry driver and will not back down as the juggernaut thunders uncontrollably towards the stick like Frenchman. As he disappears under the wheels, he can be heard explaining that the lorry has worked not one day in football and does not know what it is talking about.

45. GoonerRon

    Apr 04, 2013, 22:41 #33762

    @ Spectrum - how do silence a guy who labels anyone with the temerity to disagree with him a 'pesky AKB?' Here's my attempt (I've tried to be as CURRENT as possible): (1) has led us to a top four finish consistently (3 of the last 5 seasons in third place) despite having the lowest net transfer spend in the league, despite Chelsea, United and City spending a combined £1.25bn more than us on transfer spend and wages, and despite us having the 5th highest wage bill in the last 3 seasons. (2) he has attracted top calibre players such as Spanish international regulars like Cazorla and Monreal. (3) has made two league one players into England internationals, one of whom was purchased for only £1m. (4) other players such as Szczesny, Koscielny, Gibbs, Wilshere, Ramsey, Ryo have become full internationals under his stewardship. (5) had secured ours and England's most talented home grown player in a generation on a long term contract. This was after the scouting network created by him (albeit in the PAST) unearthing Wilshere in the first place and cultivating his talent to make him the player he is CURRENTLY. (6) has turned Walcott from a player who in his first 4 seasons averaged a goal every 7.55 games (or goals/assists every 3.77 games) to a player who in his last 3 seasons has averaged a goal every 2.88 games (or goals/assists every 1.59 games). This season the improvement has continued with a goal every 2.06 games (or goals/assists every 1.12 games). FYI - I don't think Arsene knows best, but I do believe he still does some good things for our club. @ Gooner89 - check back through any post or article I've made on here, not once have I told anyone to go and support someone else.

46. pppppppppp

    Apr 04, 2013, 17:48 #33759

    oh boy what a load of chris waddle. come on the gooner - grow some balls and stand up for your team.

47. Spectrum

    Apr 04, 2013, 14:51 #33756

    Hey fellow realists - how do you silence a pesky A.K.B. ? Just put this to him - ( preface ) ; We ALL agree that Wenger achieved great things with us in his halcyon days before 2005.No-one can dispute that.It's a matter of public record. So, as we both agree on that, let me ask you "What is Wenger CURRENTLY, repeat CURRENTLY, doing well ? Remember the rules ; digging up his ( now distant ) PAST record doesn't count.We're in FULL agreement on that. No, the question is ; "What is Wenger CURRENTLY doing well" ? When faced with this, the standard A.K.B. response is silence. I've yet to have even one of them give a solid, detailed and meaningful reply to this.Probably because there isn't a case to be made. You see, when you take away the A.K.B.'s most common and ONLY form of defence of Wenger - i.e. his PAST achievements, that A.K.B. is totally exposed in justifying why the manager should still be at our club. And here's another point to consider ; We see some A.K.B.'s seeing the light, and turning against Wenger. But how many realists ( i.e. the Wenger Outs )do you see doing the opposite (i.e. becoming A.K.B.'s ) ? Tells you something, eh ? "In Arsene we rust."

48. Gooner89

    Apr 04, 2013, 14:08 #33755

    Oh the AKBs so boring. Yawn, yawn, yawn. Wenger wins 7 trophies in five seasons. Great at the time but rubbish since. As pointed out George and the legend that is Herbert have a far better trophy rate with less available. As for the griping about negativity give us something to cheer about. In case you didn't notice we lost to the power houses of LEAGUE 2 Bradford and Blackburn who are about to apoint their 6th manager this year.AKBs and Wenger insult the rest of us with their "one of those things" or should that be 2 of those things. 4th place trophy and good accounts are enough for a bus parade. What utter BS. I have been a Gooner since I was 8 years old, I'm now 51. I bleed red and white, had an Arsenal tattoo for my 50th and have been a ST holder for 34 years. What gives you the right to tell me and others the right to tell those who insult your glorious leader to go and support another club because we dare to have a different opinion? Don't remember anyone who wants Wenger out telling AKBs the same. If you want to support Wenger that is your right but to those who insult those with a different opinion go crawl back under your stones. Finally just to clarify where I stand. WENGER OUT

49. Spectrum

    Apr 04, 2013, 13:36 #33754

    Ronster said.....( quote ) "Competing?! ....currently 24pts behind Man Utd ! And since the last title win: In 2005 finished 12pts behind the champions, 2006-24pts behind, 2007-21pts behind, 2008-4pts ( well done Arsene! ), 2009-18pts, 2010-11pts, 2011-12pts, 2012-19pts. Not good enough I'm afraid ". ( end quote ) Revealing, that if you take the points tally from 2010 to now, ( i.e. the last four years ) there's a noticeable downward trajectory in finishing positions, which on these raw figures, confirm what the realists have been claiming; that we ARE a club in decline. We may well at the end of this season, have Wenger set a NEW RECORD for the largest points gap EVER, since 2005. ( Can we go for 30+ ) ? Gee, this is almost as exciting a prospect as the race for fourth ! " In Arsene we rust."

50. Gaz

    Apr 04, 2013, 12:28 #33753

    Do those of you complaining about these type of articles realise you're free to submit one of your own?

51. mkherd89

    Apr 04, 2013, 11:42 #33752

    DOOM MONGERS NEW BREED OF FICKLE ARSENAL FANS,,,,,,,,,,IN WENGER WE TRUST

52. Max

    Apr 04, 2013, 10:55 #33751

    More of the same from the Online Gooner. The same post in different forms again and again, very occasionally interrupted by a match report or an interesting article.

53. Van de Ed

    Apr 04, 2013, 2:31 #33750

    Brian, well done and thanks for providing all these stats!!

54. Ken

    Apr 04, 2013, 1:25 #33749

    All very good, but it's just a load of repeats, you know like christmas they put on the same old films change the record for f**ks sake.WENGER OUT NOW

55. ApolloGooner

    Apr 03, 2013, 20:22 #33748

    The club isnt competing! And whats worse is that they are not really interesting in competing. To do that would eats away at the profits they love so much. What they are interested in is creating the illusion that they are competing. Or that they are on the verge. Sadly there are many fans who are sucked in by this and they will make no end of excuses to defend the club. Not only that, they even question the credentials of the fans who see through it all while at the same time trying to belittle them and the valid points they make. So thanks to Wenger, Arsenal now have a reputation as a selling club with no ambition and the fan base is divided. Great value for £7m a year.

56. CanadaGooner

    Apr 03, 2013, 15:29 #33747

    @GoonerRon; Fair enough. For me it's very simple: you cant be a serious club if all your best players are now playing for (and winning trophies) teams you're supposed to be competing against, while you're getting to the "latter stages" of competitions as you say (and winning nothing). 3 teams have won the majority of the trophies in the last 8 years that we've won nothing: each of those teams have an ex-arsenal player as their regular starter (ashley cole, RVP, clichy/nasri/toure). The closest we have truly come to winning a trophy is the carling cup final; all the others that you call "getting to the latter stages" are just a smokescreen

57. Ronster

    Apr 03, 2013, 15:23 #33746

    Competing?!....currently 24pts behind Man Utd!And since the last title win: In 2005 finished 12pts behind the champions,06-24pts behind,07-21pts behind,08-4pts(well done Arsene!),09-18pts,10-11pts,11-12pts,12-19pts.Not good enough I'm afraid.

58. Johnnyhawleylovinggooner

    Apr 03, 2013, 14:53 #33745

    stats dont tell whole story.they do not count petro clubs or other mad money floating about football.the new stadium (built and paid for by proper business plan) is a trophy.the problem is the good will built up by this has been lost by not replacing cesc or rvp with marguee players.

59. Ronster

    Apr 03, 2013, 14:33 #33744

    ''Stadium debt..blah..blah..petrol dollars..blah..blah..Wenger's competing..blah..blah..'' Did you see Bayern last night who are looking good for the semi finals yet again despite their similar debt and income!? And didn't Mee/Howe and Neill/Howe 'compete' when they weren't delivering a European trophy,a Double,an FA Cup...yet these noble servants of Arsenal Football Club had to eventually pass on the baton.A special mention to the often overlooked Don Howe who had the integrity to resign when he found out the club were courting Terry Venables despite the team being on a winning run.The club is stagnant,stale,afraid...we need to move on.

60. Ron

    Apr 03, 2013, 14:20 #33743

    Gooner Ron - Good points as ever, but i suspect a little bit of Wenger spin in there my freind!! Yes, stats in terms of stages reached in differenet tournies do bear you out in your 'competing' argument. You miss though the amount of aborted Cup games ie where we ve just not cared about going out. I class B Rovers at home this year as one of them. There are also the semi final dissasters where weak teams have been fielded ie V Chelsea in 09 (FAC) and 07 (CC). The thrashings where Wenger has happliy bailed out of the FAC ie Utd away in 08 - loss 4-0 and hardly a glove raised in anger. Its almost as if any progress in tournies has been by default in some instances ie we ve gone forward a round or two, but often when not really desired ie v Leeds (FAC)in 2011. I dont class getting via CL groups as competing as the groups have got easier and the teams in them largely abysmal and nondescript. As for the title, yes, 2008 is classed as a genuine challenge but we imploded in Feb that year. I dont think there has been one genuine chalenge since 2004 s success in reality. I take your points though albeit theyre a little selected (as are mine i suppose!!) Respect though, as i know you take a lot of stick on here for some reason. Keep at it though fella.

61. Ron

    Apr 03, 2013, 14:01 #33742

    Radford/Kennedy - Very true. Article doesnt point out that in those days of years gone by when we had average teams (im thinking mid 60s mid 70s and 80s in particular if you want to highlight periods, it was still a great day just going to Arsenal and we could actually smile at many players in those periods, but still backed them as they were Gunners players. The team was backed and the support was great. Nothing better than a Joe Baker goal when i was a kid! My Dad hardly moaned abour poor results. The match day experience was still real and geunine and he, nor i some years later ever felt ripped off. Today, its not far short of torture going to Arsenal with the 'new set' all around, the dead atmosphere and the pervading feel that Arsenal are taking the p--s basically. Winning Cups etc doesnt even reach anywhere near the Clubs agenda now. Its time fans accepted it or jacked it in as ive largely done, bar the odd away day excursion, that i do as those days to an extent still re create the old feel of supporting Arsenal. Wengers/Gazardis spin is aimed at the new breed of 'fan'. I believe they know it too.I actually feel sorry for the new type footie follower. They dont know what they missed years back when there was a 'connection' between Player and fan.

62. maguiresbridge gooner

    Apr 03, 2013, 13:35 #33740

    Jack the Gooner, what are you waiting for then, show us how it's done knock something intelligent up and give us all a chance to tell you if it's a good article or not.

63. WeAreBuildingATeamToDominate

    Apr 03, 2013, 13:14 #33739

    [email protected] 3 April - both George Allison and Tom Whittaker would have had their hands tied in respect of Highbury. GA when the new stands were being built in the early 1930's and TW as the club began to pay off its huge debt incurred during WW2, not to mention the part rebuilding of a bomb damaged stadium. They didn't seem to do too bad, considering.......Terry Neill might not have been the greatest manager ever, but he was also constrained by the board, around the time of the first £1m signings. 1979/80, Brady on his way out to Juve at the season's end for a laughable £600k, so the club get John Hollins (no dissing JH he did alright) for £30k....don't it sound all so familiar.

64. ApolloGooner

    Apr 03, 2013, 13:12 #33738

    Oh the irony Jack the Gooner! You complaining about the pointless articles and the idiots on here is just as repetitive as what you're complaining about. If the article serves no purpose then please tell me what purpose your comment serves? If you want something different on here why don't you try and provide it? Its a well written article in my opinion and if you are looking for a purpose to it (and all the other comments) then I think there is something therapeutic about knowing others feel the same and that they share the same frustrations.

65. What was the point in leaving Highbury?

    Apr 03, 2013, 13:07 #33737

    Can anyone work out where dopey would stand in seasons per trophy ratio table? Another more accurate table may be competitions entered per trophy ratio as early year managers didnt have the amount of competitions we have now so this may be fairer.

66. GoonerRon

    Apr 03, 2013, 12:40 #33736

    @ CanadaGooner - but aren't there a lot of other teams who think that they have a chance of winning one or more of the trophies too? The only team who is in with a shout of winning more than one trophy this year is Chelsea, and one of those they would prefer not to be in. Is it a coincidence that in recent seasons 5 of the last 6 FA Cups (I think) have been won by Man City or Chelsea? They spend far and away the most money and therefore have better squad depth and can therefore rotate their squad more effectively and still win the trophy. As I said, whilst we've had a barren run in terms of trophies we have been in the latter stages of all competitions during this period and to me that is 'competing'. I acknowledge this position isn't necessarily acceptable for all Arsenal supporters but for me the article doesn't really accentuate the differences in Wenger's reign to the others in terms of stadium move, the relative consistency we have had etc.

67. Jack the Gooner

    Apr 03, 2013, 12:28 #33735

    Having a good laugh at all the fools saying "good article"! How is it a good article? What purpose does this serve? I could have gone onto Wiki and knocked this up. Wenger has to go, but I agree with JJB, these articles are pointless, it just lets the same idiots have another opportunity to post the same comments! Can we not have something a bit different on here, something that has taken some intelligence to write?

68. ApolloGooner

    Apr 03, 2013, 11:44 #33734

    Good article Brian! And just to elaborate on the point Ronster made about us only winning a trophy in 5 different seasons under Wenger ... another way to put this is that 17 seasons, Wenger has finished empty handed as many as 12 times. That is dreadful considering the resources and talent he has had at his disposal. And yet because he has won 7 trophies to Graham’s 6 we are meant to acknowledge Wenger as our best and most successful manager. I think it is fairer to judge this on a ratio. In my opinion that means Grahams 6 trophies in just 8 seasons is far more impressive. And as Gaz rightly pointed out, Graham didn't have Europe available to him like Wenger has had. Wenger was a great manager when the circumstances were right for him but time has proved him to be far more ordinary and limited than we once believed. And lets not let the stadium argument excuse him. Wenger has hampered himself and the club far more than anything else has.

69. Red Member

    Apr 03, 2013, 10:54 #33732

    what is remarkable is that despite the trophy drought people are still willing to pay some of the highest ticket prices in world football

70. paul

    Apr 03, 2013, 10:49 #33731

    That’s nice. Can you also point to the fundamental differences between their managerial reigns and Wenger’s, and their football eras and our own? I’m wondering, for instance, whether George Elcoat was dealing with constrained cash flows because of a new stadium build while two or three other clubs were–at the same time, mind–doping the industry with limitless transfer and wage offerings? Perhaps in your desperation to discredit Wenger, you might also reflect on crucial circumstantial differences as well. I’m not saying Wenger is perfect, and my faith in his abilities has been tested like never before this season, but the kind of fact dry-humping you’re doing above is not at all persuasive.

71. GG89

    Apr 03, 2013, 10:12 #33730

    So if the avaerage person lives for 75 years and I´m 46 I have 29 years to see the gooners win something.... unless, AW is still the manager then he would be like 109 and gone 37 years without winning anything... not likely but I´m thinking along these lines....

72. radfordkennedy

    Apr 03, 2013, 10:01 #33729

    A good article but fails to reflect the sad change in administration strategy and policy.Back in Billys day all revenue came through the turnstiles and the only merchandise was knitted by your Nan and player salary was probably only twice that of the working man,and in berties day it was still mainly money on the gate that paid the bills with the exception of the green shed behind the clock end staffed by Jack Kelsey which passed as a club shop.And during Terry Neills time the club was so skint that the free christmas turkey to all staff was stopped!,but the common denominator back then is that these men were got rid of because of poor results and a period of no trophy success,and the likes of Dennis Hill-wood and Bob Wall were not frightened to make these decisions because after all we WERE a sporting club and the whole point of our exsistance was to challange and win trophies.If you then compare then with now,gate receipts are petty cash and merchandising,sponsorship and taping in on the vast amounts to be made in the far east markets is king.And if you add to that AW's ability to asset strip the club in terms of players sold,you can see why success in terms of trophies has become largely irrelavant.And untill we have real football men in charge and we return to being a sporting club again this business model will remain whoever the manager is.

73. Mark

    Apr 03, 2013, 9:45 #33728

    just renewing my tickets. more out of loyalty than anything. the club needs my help to pay DIABY's wages for next 9 months

74. bunch

    Apr 03, 2013, 6:46 #33727

    What this useful set of facts highlight is the extent to which our club is just about making money and the pernicious effect of the Champions League. Wenger has able to survive without trophy because the profits, after player sales, are maintained and making up the numbers in the Champions League is deemed to be success.

75. Mandy Dodd

    Apr 03, 2013, 0:10 #33726

    Surely worth factoring in the consequences of the stadium move under part of wengers watch. Many teams who do such things off their own backs end up relegated. Just a thought.

76. Joe S.

    Apr 02, 2013, 23:23 #33725

    Nomally I couldn't care less about this type of article, however I'm enjoyins seeing some of the AKB's getting all riled up. These people always defend Wegner on the basis of rational thinking and data as opposed to the uninformed raw emotion of his critics. Yet here they are telling us how irrelevant this post is and why statistics don't matter. Good One!

77. CanadaGooner

    Apr 02, 2013, 23:18 #33724

    @Gooner Ron; apologies, as my interpretation of 'competing' means if there are 4 trophies each season, we must be in with a chance in more than just one per season (that's why we have a big squad isnt it?), all that aside, I dont think finishing 24 points behind in the league (and I see the league as our FIRST priority each year) and being eliminated from 2 cups by bradford and blackburn is competing. By the law of averages, yes we have had chances to beat the likes of Birmingham in a Carling Cup final: if we are competing as you say, such results should be an obvious win for arsenal.

78. GoonerRon

    Apr 02, 2013, 22:25 #33723

    @ Canada - you say that we haven't been competing and whilst its impossible to ignore 8 years without a trophy, surely we have been competing? 3 cup finals, 4 semi finals, one win away from the league in 2008 and in the thick of the title run in two years later again. As I say, we clearly didn't get over the line for a trophy, for which the manager is certainly partly culpable, but wouldn't you call that competing?

79. Wombledin

    Apr 02, 2013, 20:51 #33722

    Trophies? Dont make me laugh. AFC=Americans Football Cashcow. Its all about the money money money, Kroenke wants your money money money

80. Terry

    Apr 02, 2013, 20:26 #33721

    All a bit silly really.All the other managers were sacked because they had let Arsenal slip to mid table mediocrity.Instead of Wenger leaving I wish the Wenger out whingers would leave and go and bore another teams set of fans with their endless bellyacheing.Arsenal is full of trophy huggers and fair weather fraudsters these days.

81. Bard

    Apr 02, 2013, 20:02 #33720

    No surprise to see the stats. Disagree with the posts suggesting he doesn't want to win trophies.He does but he just doesn't know how to anymore. The game's moved on and his strategy ( if there is one ) is flawed. He can't or won't change so we're stuck until he decides to chuck it in.

82. Sir Sid James

    Apr 02, 2013, 18:52 #33718

    Wenger is not bothered about winning trophies.The CL and the premiership we have no chance of winning and the two domestic trophies he doesnt even try to win.Its all about 4th place.But he forgets fans want trophies.We want days out at Wembley,we want to boast about winning trophies.Thats what a clubs history is built on.As Ferguson said when asked what would happen if United went 5 years without a trophy he replied "It wouldnt happen,Never"

83. Green Hut

    Apr 02, 2013, 18:48 #33717

    Ron- That's what keeps me awake at night. Not literally, Mandy.

84. maguiresbridge gooner

    Apr 02, 2013, 16:48 #33716

    Good Statistics Brian, Going on nine years without silverware a statistic we don't hear about from inside the club, or from ogl to often,as stats or records like that don't do much for reputations and overinflated ego's.

85. Roy

    Apr 02, 2013, 16:34 #33715

    Factual evidence maybe, and a partly welcome diversion from the normal type of article, but all it is doing is exploiting yet another possible angle into why the manager has become a so called "busted flush","lost his mojo" etc etc. Great credit to you, as I didn't think there were any more avenues to go down in order to get this point across ! Therein probably lies the rub, though - you, like the rest of us if we're honest, are increasingly looking for ways to change things and in doing so are prepared to dig as deep as possible to justify this. We are all frustrated and disappointed enduring as we are, another desperate season , one in which our only realistic trophy chances were ended by lower league opposition after selling our best player to Manure. There used to be a gentlemans agreement between the top managers - don't go after my players and I won't go after yours - but old red nose smelt blood and 25 years of that was ended, and we've only ourselves to blame. Watching him score the goals to win them the title while suffering even further troubles of our own in the meantime has just exacerbated things even further to where this season has now become the tipping point meaning that Wenger supporters are now in the minority for the first time. Yes, we want him out but it is irrelevant as he and the board are as one and have been since before we left Highbury when they hatched their grand plan, meaning that the only time you can expect any sort of change is if we lost 20 plus games in a row or half the stadium was empty on a regular basis. So, your article, though interesting, carries no weight even if I did point it out to someone because the normal criteria for getting rid of a manager will never apply at our club until the next one comes in, whenever that might be, so it looks like we'll all have to put up with it for at least one more season. I for one would still prefer to finish above the Sp*ds and have Champions League football next season, but I fully respect the views of those who don't. Up the Gunners.

86. Ron

    Apr 02, 2013, 15:50 #33714

    Big Andy - I dont think they have a problem really. Mr W will see his Contract out and thats it i feel. A seat on the Board awaits as sure as night follows day. He ll be the 'hand of prudent sustainability' ready to douse the ardour of any errant new Coach.

87. Ronster

    Apr 02, 2013, 15:47 #33713

    The key to the trophy cabinet has only been turned for 5 of the 17 seasons he has been in charge........

88. Gaz

    Apr 02, 2013, 15:31 #33712

    Should also be remembered that for his first four years George Graham had no European football available to him.

89. Big Andy

    Apr 02, 2013, 15:12 #33711

    Great article, but nothing here is really surprising. For a massive European club our recent lack of success has been nothing short of a disgrace. And the fact that Wenger is still our manager is an outrage. Kroenke and the Board now have a huge problem. I have absolutely no doubt that they would love to award Wenger's financial prudence with a new contract; the trouble is that they know this will be met with outrage from the majority of us real fans who know The Nutty Professor is a busted flush. This will be an interesting summer.

90. Paul

    Apr 02, 2013, 15:06 #33710

    We will never win another trophy under Wenger.Fact.And no 4th place is NOT a trophy never has been never will be

91. Bob

    Apr 02, 2013, 14:41 #33709

    Of course, the playing field is not level as the greatest manager of all tim - Herbert Chapman - had only two trophies available to him every season.

92. Jack

    Apr 02, 2013, 14:29 #33707

    This site is so depressing, all I hear is constant moaning and negativity. Why can't you be more like arseblog. Inb4 akb or not a real fan

93. Wenger Out!

    Apr 02, 2013, 14:12 #33706

    Interesting article. The stats don't lie. Wenger is a busted flush. Thanks for the memories Arsene, but it's time to say goodbye! Get Wenger Out!

94. IJM

    Apr 02, 2013, 14:05 #33705

    Excellent original research (not a cut and paste) and even for those uninterested in history it is relevant because it provides factual evidence, not mere opinion.

95. Where's Wally is a Gooner

    Apr 02, 2013, 14:01 #33704

    Good work. It puts things into perspective for a few people out there who think Arsenal started in 1996.

96. CanadaGooner

    Apr 02, 2013, 13:38 #33703

    Good article Brian. And I'm sure the ticket prices during those other long trophyless spells weren't the highest in the league. What really does compound the situation and makes Wenger's stay untenable is the fact that we can't even compete anymore! And it gets worse every season and is now at a point where within a week or so, we lose to two lower league teams in tournaments we should be taking very seriously (FA Cup and League Cup). Next season won't be any different under Wenger (not because he can't do it, but because he's too arrogant to admit his mistakes and do things differently! He sees himself as a mini-god now because he's the second longest serving manager in the league and in his mind, he is arsenal)

97. jack

    Apr 02, 2013, 13:37 #33702

    this is probably the worst article ever to be copy pasted. are you trying to be inflammatory?

98. JJB

    Apr 02, 2013, 13:35 #33701

    I’m sorry; I really fail to see the point of this? No surprises to see this rubbish on the gooner, it’s in line with the usual policy, but frankly I don’t give a sh**t about how many seasons previous arsenal managers went through without a trophy, we all know the clubs history! I bet this took you ages to research, I can see the care that has gone into it!! All I care about is right now! I want the manager gone before you jump on me, but this site seems to enjoy flogging a dead donkey! What are you expecting, other than a litany of the same negative comments that have been said before! Why not put something a bit more constructive, a call to arms if you will rather than this belligerent nonsense that serves no purpose.

99. Andy Kelly

    Apr 02, 2013, 13:05 #33700

    I think you will find that George Morrell managed Arsenal when they were relegated, not promoted. He also managed them until 1915. Harry Bradshaw managed them during the promotion winning season of 1903-04. Sam Hollis was never manager. George Elcoat should be William Elcoat Before March 1897 the team was managed by a committee of directors. Other than that, not bad.