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1. BADARSE

   Oct 14, 2013, 23:00 #40580

   I liked your take on the 1974 WC Final Ron. My first one in colour on the TV! Some English lads went to Holland a number of years ago hoping to make a go of selling jacket potatoes, as the rage took hold here. They were told that the Dutch would not buy those hot potatoes. Still they tried and failed. The reason that the Dutch resisted is because during the occupation that is what they were forced to eat, either that or starve. A jacket potato was too close to remembering their German jailers. Sometimes if you cannot control bad blood, it can drown you.

2. Ron

   Oct 14, 2013, 16:47 #40576

   Alasace - Back in 1974 mate, The Dutch cd and shd have won that WC Final v Germany. Thast they didnt was their own arrogance. They wanted to humiliate West Germany and took their eye off the objective ie winning. Germany worked it out, hung in there and knew that their arrogance would undo them if they could hang in close and weather the total football storm. Paul Breitner is documented in expalining the German realisation of this. Neeskens one of the great Dutch masters has acknowledged it. Big dutch mistake in letting old wartime enmities get the better of them.

3. Alsace Lorraine de Totteridge

   Oct 13, 2013, 21:40 #40547

   Holland have won the European Championship, and participated in a final which they would never have been allowed to win and in which their opponents cheated to get to the final. We have been in one world cup final and won it. They have been in three and have won none of them. It is about winning. Even Spurs fans know that in their soul, which is why they are so foul tempered. If you think differently then perhaps Corinthian Casuals or Queens Park are your team.

4. BADARSE

   Oct 13, 2013, 17:36 #40545

   8 years : the inconvenient truth. I liked that! Now I see a connection between my favourite painter artist, Vincent, and my favourite footballer artist Bergy.

5. maguiresbridge gooner

   Oct 13, 2013, 14:38 #40536

   We're on a good run now, a chance of silverware for a long long time, a real world class player at last and moral is high, so lets just forget the last eight years of failure and all that went with it,lets sweep it under the carpet lets try and air brush it out of history it didn't happen, well it did and it's gone down in history and a lot of fans haven't forgotten and won't, and nothing has changed yet and until it does we will keep being reminded of it and so will OGL even if it is bad for his image, reputation, and bruises his ego, maybe it will give him more of an incentive to do something about it and give us genuine reasons to move on.

6. 8 years: the inconvenient truth

   Oct 13, 2013, 13:50 #40530

   Holland have given the world some of the finest footballers to ever grace the game. The Vincent van Goghs of football, delighting us with their artistry and pure, total football. They have never won the world cup. If you can never see beyond the lack of trophies, then their beauty and gift to the game is lost.

7. Alsace Lorraine de totteridge

   Oct 13, 2013, 11:47 #40526

   that 8 years . So inconvenient. So unarguable. So telling.

8. BADARSE

   Oct 12, 2013, 20:15 #40518

   @Dixon Arsene Seaman. Sometimes I need a laugh and a lift more than at other times. You just gave me both! Thanks dude.

9. Dixon Arsene Seaman

   Oct 12, 2013, 18:14 #40509

   @Canada - 'We spent the last 8 seasons getting dumped out of every tournament in the space of a week or two'. - so that champions league final we were 15 minutes away from winning in 2006 never happened? The wins in the Bernabau (who didn't get a buzz from that?!), the San Siro and at home to 'the best side ever' and defeats in two carling cup finals were all a dream erased by the fact that we didn't win a trophy. If Arsenal do ever win anything ever again, you'll undoubtedly moan that you were kept waiting. People say our fans are an entitled bunch of miserabilists, on the evidence of your continued focus on '8 years...8 years...Bradford...8 years...Blackburn...8 years...8 years..Bradford....where are my trophies?....8 years...' I can see what they mean. We all f'ing know we haven't won anything for 8 years. Stop reminding us.

10. BADARSE

    Oct 12, 2013, 10:02 #40492

    Then Alsace, you may just catch a glimpse of myself waving to Arsene taking a slow stroll out across the mouth of the Severn. He'd be explaining to himself where he thought the bankers had gone wrong. Have a lovely weekend yourself buddy.

11. Alsace Lorraine de Totteridge

    Oct 12, 2013, 8:44 #40487

    Re Liverpool Cup final - death my Michael Owen. The funny thing about that cup final was that Cardiff had been such a pleasant experience after attending cup finals at the Neasden Toilet that it wasn't a wholly wasted weekend. I think we were all looking forward to going back to Cardiff and getting the result right (and I learned later so did the team), and of course we did go back and have several pleasant trips there. Chelsea was my favourite for the football and the atmosphere. How pleasant it would be if we were looking forward to the possibility of a cup semi final or final in the Welsh capital rather than the possibility of the unpleasant experience (win or lose) at the New Neasden toilet. We could arrange for Ron and Westlower to meet up in a bar in Cardiff to have a respectful debate about why OGL is or is not truly great. And I could show them both the P45 I have drafted for him. And the Writ claiming several million pounds for a job not done. But I digress. Have a lovely weekend everyone.

12. BADARSE

    Oct 11, 2013, 20:42 #40483

    westlower, Ron's had his Horlicks, and looking a little like wee Willie winkie, has toddled up the wooden hill to Bedfordshire, but I loved your unique tale. Sad end to the day, but as I said recently, each individual occurrence is a separate memory in any large event. Your story will stand many retellings.

13. Westlower

    Oct 11, 2013, 18:07 #40482

    Ron, Just to finish the week on a lighter note with a Martin Keown story. My wife and I arrived early in Cardiff for the Arsenal v Liverpool FA Cup final and we sat on a bench waiting for the pubs/restaurants to open. We were both wearing our No.14 Keown shirts, confident we wouldn't see anybody else wearing one. Martin wore no.14 before Henry claimed it. Lo and behold, two young kids walked by wearing Keown shirts. I said there must be something wrong with them kids, nobody their age would like MK. Then a woman introduced herself and asked if we were Keown fans. Very much so we replied. That's good to hear, as I'm Martin's sister. I asked about the kid's and she said yes they're mine and they've come along to cheer their uncle Martin. Great day spoiled by two late goals. Long way home!!!

14. hibeegunner

    Oct 11, 2013, 17:53 #40480

    I don't often comment but I do read this blog on a regular basis and have to say I am a big fan of Ron's because 9 times out of 10 I agree with what he says. Like him I go back as far as the Billy Wright days and they where dire. Now while I think A.W. has done a great job over the years I think he is passed his sell by date time for a fresh approach as was the case when he took over but 16 attempts to win the C.L. I think proves he is just lacking a little something extra that all great managers have.

15. Ron

    Oct 11, 2013, 17:31 #40478

    Westlower - AW has a lot ot attributes to his coaching preferences as you say. Hes far from clueless. A coaches biggest flaw and weakness is his/her ego. Wenger thinks his theories will overhaul the environment he plays in. Like you, give me a Brady over an Adams aesthetically all day long. The truth is a team here needs both, particularly in the Prem League. We play in the cold, wet and wind and the air type is heavy for most of the season. This is why silky skills alone wont make a successful team despite the pitches nowadays. Wenger should coach in Spain and in my view should have gone to Real Madrid years ago when they really wanted him. Hes too old maybe now for that level of the game. He would have cleaned up there im sure. Hes very arrogant thinking theres no need to combine muscle with finery. Hes got Flamini now and he bought the BFG, but in my view he bought them both as sops to fan pressure, so hes not immune from that. Flamini fell in his lap or he wdt be there now for sure.I dont 'hate' him matey. I dont hate anybody. I do think hes a bit of a fraud though. His best CL run was when Keown who you mention marshalled the defence and his best days were when he inherited GGs defenders. His best team contained the best foreigner ever to play here in DB and who Wenger never signed but who orhestrated nearly everything the 49ers did.I would also add that many of those players ie DB, TH, Lehmann and Bobby P managed that team themselves for so long. I saw most of the 49 games and so often they got out of jail by going ad hoc and threw Wengers manual away to pull a game round.We also had a lot of luck as all teams need of course. Great players can do that. With lesser players, Wenger looks lost in my view. His results arent bad of course as top 4 consistency shows, but to raise his bar im just of the view he doesnt have it anymore, but like a boxer who wants one more and one last fight to be a champ again, he gets into the ring again constantly. A salary like that encourages it.Hes been a damn good coach, but not a great one. His best team underachieved terribly in my view mate. Have a great week end anyway and no doubt we ll chat again!!!

16. BADARSE

    Oct 11, 2013, 17:10 #40476

    Glad of the break, westlower? I am enjoying the tennis match between you both, it's a Borg V McEnroe game-ahh, those were the days!

17. Westlower

    Oct 11, 2013, 16:59 #40475

    Ron, If you don't rate AW as a coach that's your prerogative. After years of watching 1-0 games, I find his attacking style of football refreshing and stimulating. Defending by ball possession rather than thugery but each to his own! I'm saying that as Martin Keown's biggest fan but I'd sooner watch a Brady, DB or Ozil over THE back four. Given your involvement in coaching kids I'm surprised you're blissfully unaware of physical and mental fatigue caused by over playing, particularly in heat. Hence the furore about the World Cup in Qatar. I've been involved in the training of greyhounds for many years and quickly came to realise they can only be kept at a physical peak for approx. 6 weeks, then you have to let them down for a period before bringing them back again. Similar must apply to the human body. You deride me for the clubs I listed that are no longer in the big time, but have between them won European Cups, Leagues, FA Cups & League Cups. How easy it is for any club to be mismanaged, often caused by emotional & irrational fan pressure. It's so easy to slip down the slippery slope to oblivion. Be thankful AFC have been at the top table since 1919, much longer than any other club. Badarse, Ron and I are not wrestling, we're just exchanging our different points of view re all things Arsenal. You must be glad of the break?

18. Ron

    Oct 11, 2013, 16:03 #40472

    Westlower - Dear oh dear fella. Had to play in heat a few days before? My heart bleeds for the poor mites. My views are shaped by the sheer number of bottle jobs ive been at. As for the demands of playing, dont assume anything. Ive played at semi pro level and years of junior football and have coached for years, now coaching young under 14s so ive a fair idea of what physical demands the game brings. Many pro footballers (most who play in some pain from Sept/Oct onwards until May) think that coaches who bleat about over playing talk bullcrap. My views on Wenger arent shaped by one game at all. Dont be so insulting. Theyre shaped by watching his teams and forming a view for years on end and that view is that he in particular and many of the players hes bought have lacked the will and the stomach to compete with Clubs on the same level as themselves. For a Club like Arsenal, in the modern game, with the resources theyve got and yet win nothing for the best part of a decade is chronically bad. The teams you compare them with shows how desperate you are for reasons to support the present regime. To use such Clubs as comparitives is simply laughable.

19. maguiresbridge gooner

    Oct 11, 2013, 13:54 #40466

    Alasce, yes he's fixated with his holy grail, and he's just as far away now as ever from winning it, so lets concentrate on winning something we're capable of winning maybe even more than one, now that would be a real buzz.

20. maguiresbridge gooner

    Oct 11, 2013, 13:25 #40465

    Black Hei, A legitimate question indeed, and a very good one, and one that can be asked anytime because winning something this year doesn't suddenly make up for the last eight years of failure.

21. BADARSE

    Oct 11, 2013, 13:05 #40464

    @Westlower, I see you enjoy wrestling, my friend.

22. Westlower

    Oct 11, 2013, 12:32 #40463

    Ron, It wasn't just fans in Manchester prediction 5-0 scoreline, the whole world knew that AFC would get a hiding that day. There were 6 players aged 22 or younger. Coquelin was making his debut in midfield, Jenkinson, later sent off, was only making his 3rd start, Traore filled in at left back with Djourou at CB. We'd played in a tough CL qualifier in Italy 3 days before in 30+ degrees heat. What was left of the first team had nothing more to give. You continually fail to grasp the effects of a tough away game midweek, perhaps you never will. To make matters worse RVP missed a penalty. If the circumstances were reversed we'd have given Man U a tonking. Most of us have moved on from what was a very predictable result. I remain eminently proud of the way AFC always bounces back from adversity. So many other former successful (cup & league winners) clubs have fallen away, Leeds, Wolves, Portsmouth, Middlesborough, Ipswich, Leicester, N Forest, Sheffield W & U, Blackburn, Coventry, Bolton, Huddersfield, Charlton, Luton, Wimbledon, Birmingham, QPR, Derby, Burnley, etc. For all their investments, Spurs haven't won the league since 61. To hold one predictable defeat at OT as the reason for your hatred of AW is sad. Move on and enjoy whatever the future brings, win, lose or draw.

23. CanadaGooner

    Oct 11, 2013, 11:05 #40460

    Westlower, you're clutching at straws as always. "nevermind the 49 games"? - is that not part of what has kept Wenger in a job? (who else goes 8 years at a top club without a trophy and still keeps a £7.5m salary and retains the support of a sizeable fanatical support-base as wenger does?). Ofcourse he's reaped (and still is, reaping) the gains from that invincible season (probably MORE than anyone else who was part of that team). It's amazing how people like yourself would craft baseless arguments to support an equally baseless view-point. Wenger is still YET to a trophy this season (so, we shouldnt begin using 'past tenses' just yet!)

24. Ron

    Oct 11, 2013, 10:50 #40459

    Westlower - My hand's been clear since the 8-2 my freind.That day i saw a team frightened to be there, hunched shoulders, quivering as they emerged from that tunnel at OT.The ball was a grenade to all of them. What their Coach was saying to them beforehand to them, beggars belief. Fans in the pubs and bars before in central Manchester all predicting 3/4/5 - 0. He should have gone then of his own accord if not by being pushed. Im still of the same view and ill still have that view in May! The Club needs a change at the tiller. credit due to him for steering it through the post ground shift choppy waters, but his time has been and gone. That clear enough? PS No Arsenal player has ever dived then? Can't believe your hats still hung on that bent old peg. Like Wengers preached for years after every loss, theres always an excuse eh!

25. Westlower

    Oct 11, 2013, 10:37 #40457

    Ground control to Major Ron & CG, The 'predictable' end to the Invincibles run was everything to do with a Rooney dive for a penalty. Never mind the previous 49 games as it was nothing to do with the manager. Anybody who can't see the circumstances leading up to the 2-8 at OT has their head completely buried in the sand. Were we not 'ballsy' getting a 2-0 away victory in Munich following the 3-1 home defeat by the European Champions? Defeats before AW arrived meant nothing? Showing your hand now Ron. Cheer up chaps we may even beat Chelsea, then what are we to think? Balls or no balls?

26. Ron

    Oct 11, 2013, 9:56 #40456

    Westlower - i some times wonder if youve been in another solar system for the last 9 years. Wenger and Arsenal have been shattered after one defeat so often ive lost count. Wengers teams have been as brittle as balsa wood for years. The infamous 'Game 50' at OT was the event that showed me hes no motivator. 6 months of his and his teams miserable navel gazing and sulking followed that defeat and the pattern was set for whast followed since. Brag about your supposrt as much as you will. Loads of us are like you. 1964 away at Villa was my 1st game and yes i went to Perboro in 65 as a kid and Wembley in 69 and York etc etc. It means nothing, but for me, ive not ever seen an Arsenal team buckle and fold after a loss as near as often as ive seen Wengers teams do it since 2004.Defeats arent the problem. Ive seen lots of them and expect to again. Its the manner of them and the after effect under Wenger thats rotted Arsenal for far too long. He should have been sacked after the Utd 8-2 fiasco and any other top club worthy of the definition would have done it then. That we didnt, speaks volumes about his unhealthy level of control there vis a detached Boardroom in thrall of him.

27. CanadaGooner

    Oct 11, 2013, 9:27 #40455

    Westlower - when have Arsenal (under Wenger) ever recovered well from a pivotal loss? the invincible run was predictably ended by Man Utd, and what followed? We spent the last 8 seasons getting dumped out of every tournament in the space of a week or two. last season Bradford was followed by blackburn. Feel free to go back as far as to 1996 when Wenger turned up. We've never been a ballsy team under Wenger; so, YES, not paying attention and pretending we would lose to chelsea because we play a young team is not good enough. The team needs to feed on every opportunity of a confidence/morale booster; this includes winning against chelsea in the old beer-mug competition

28. Westlower

    Oct 11, 2013, 9:23 #40454

    Alsace & Ron, For pity's sake show some belief & ambition. The world doesn't begin and end with the litmus test of beating Chelsea in the LC. Confidence will not be shattered by a defeat. It's how a team responds in their next game after defeat that is important. Maybe the media have convinced you that a defeat equates to a crisis and it's your own confidence in the team that takes a hit? There's nothing more galling than Alan Parry & co repeatedly telling the world that AFC are trophy less for x years. I doubt they would afford us much credit should we win the lowly LC. We will lose matches along with every other team and you have to deal with that. Borussia Dortmund lost 2-0 the game after CL game against Marseille but I bet their fans are not so despondent? Maybe their fans appreciate that form can dip after a CL game? I'm now in my 53rd season of watching Arsenal live and how you deduce I'm in it for the short term joy is ridiculous! In the first 17 years I attended Highbury & away matches we won nothing, zilch! I've been through the humiliation of cup defeats at P'boro, Wrexham, Tranmere, Rotherham, Walsall, Oxford, Watford, Oldham, Millwall, Swindon (the worst of all). Every one of those defeats was in the Highbury era and we were trying desperately to win all of those games, defeat happens! History shows we survived all those defeats and prospered afterwards.

29. Alsace Lorraine de Totteridge

    Oct 11, 2013, 8:32 #40450

    Ron and BA. I call him the luckiest man in football. We can win the CL, and we should have won it already, but he has to do the things that actually need doing, not continue in any further diversions of his own. More surplus to requirements players cleared out in January and one or two more high value high quality players added to increase our depth. The Chelsea game is a litmus test. Will he have learned that a defeat weakens confidence? Our goal is to win every game with all at our disposal. Confidence is cumilative.

30. Ron

    Oct 11, 2013, 8:06 #40449

    Alsace - For every one holding that sensible and realistic view my freind, there are sadly quite a few 'Westlowers' and 'James's' about, binging on their long awaited bit of desperate, short term joy the seasons start has given them and rejoicing that their course of indoctrination by Wenger and the Club was total. Wenger would sacrifice anything to sate his delusional notion of this Arsenal team getting the CL onto his CV. Where his logic comes from in deducing he can win it is staggering. Its possible of course, but every bit of great karma and good fortune the universe could throw his way would have to happen all at once and a counteracting effect of bad luck would have to befall every other Club at precisely the same time.

31. BADARSE

    Oct 11, 2013, 7:58 #40448

    @Alsace, those words of yours echo thoughts I have had often, I am sure you and others too, have touched on the nebulous idea of going this way for many a moon. Of course you cannot employ this as a strategy beyond what Arsene Wenger has done annually anyway. There is usually a feeling of a sort of upbeat consolation, should we take a tumble as we often do in the CL. It can still blow up in your face as in 2011, but it would be nice to get that monkey off our backs. Because make no mistake, it is on 'our' backs. I believe this is a root cause of rancour. Some can carry the burden better than others, of course there are some completely oblivious to the frustrations as they follow AFC at a different level. Yet those that are committed fans, but don't wear adversity in quite the adult manner they should, seem to spit out their dummies and begin wailing. I see a domestic cup as my achievement when it arrives, secondly AFC's, but now lastly as a big dummy to placate the little ones.

32. Black Hei

    Oct 11, 2013, 5:42 #40447

    If Wenger does not change his ways, but still win a major trophy at the end of the season, should he go? Legitimate question as we all view "success" differently. Anyway, this is a question for the end of the season. The buzz factor is back, so let's just enjoy the ride while it is still here.

33. DW Thomas

    Oct 11, 2013, 1:25 #40446

    I am a realist. This team can play for sure, but what about the long term and against the big teams? Wenger saved his a.. with signing Ozil. Flamini was pure luck. Can we finish off the squad and buy that needed striker? I do feel,some of that buzz again, but remain skeptical when it comes to winning things.

34. Alsace Lorraine de Totteridge

    Oct 10, 2013, 22:51 #40445

    The reason why we are all a little more confident is because Wenger has been forced to DEPART from his established modus operandi. He has had to accept and has now seen the merits of a dedicated midfield enforcer. Further he has reinforced that method by playing Arteta as a second DM. He has bought quality rather than selling it. The next departure is to try and get some silverware which means getting the low hanging fruit of the League Cup. He's fixated with the Champions League but we have as much chance of winning it as England have of stringing two passes together in Brazil. Let's qualify for the knockouts in second place, go out to Barca, collect our cheque and try and win something we can actually win. We can then use that as a springboard to improve, acquire better players and go on and win something more substantial. This could be a 1970 or a 1987. It isn't a 1971 or a 1989. It is a winning mentality which counts, and we have only a few players at the club who have actually won anything.

35. Pesho Saulov

    Oct 10, 2013, 20:07 #40444

    Every transfer window in the last few years has been billed as the most important for Wenger and Arsenal. In my opinion, this is true of the the january window. We will see if the purchase of Ozil really is really the start of something new or it was just Wenger making a necessary compromise so that he can prolong his reign. Given the lack of form in our opposition at the moment and the "buzz" in our rangs, we have a good enough squad to be challengers come january. But without at least one proven striker who can get the job done from day 1 we can't last until may. i for one am not convinced of Podolski or Theo in the lone striker role and apparently Wenger won't even consider a strating XI with two strikers. Let's hope OGL doesn't miss the wonderful opurtunity that season 13/14 is turning out to be.

36. BADARSE

    Oct 10, 2013, 19:39 #40443

    @Spaced. With regards to both domestic cups, I reluctantly stand alongside westlower, and have done for quite a few years. Don't get me wrong, I would love us to win any one of them. Sadly 2007 and 2011 didn't happen, but they might have done, it was that close. I have had descriptions levelled at me of being both romantic and pragmatist; as acknowledged, I am those and more besides. In this instance the romantic wants the candy on the shelf, all of it, but the pragmatist knows it isn't good for my teeth or diet. Thereby hangs a tale. Yet, isn't it good to have a conflict of views, and still feel it is understood by the other party, and your view is deeply respected? The ying and the yang of it pushes and pulls me constantly. If it doesn't you, in quite the same way, then you are a little more fortunate than myself.

37. Ron

    Oct 10, 2013, 19:37 #40442

    Spaced - i like the arguments from both sides matey. The blinkered approach of those who see Mr W as some type of footballing guru or unimpeachable higher being is surprising. Hes just a football Coach, with occasional poor judgement, irrational tendencies from time to time mixed with an intelligence that belies most in his chosen profession. Its his longevity at Arsenal that has coincided with the rise of PL and a fan base that in the main has swelled its numbers in the same period and so a high proportion know no differently and resent or fear change.I do hold the view though that if Arsenal do want to become a force on the pitch again, it wont be under him. Hes seems a really nice guy and it would be fascinating to be in his company im sure. Even Alex Ferguson never had the aura created for him at United (Nephews a Stretford Ender of 12 of his 26 years there) that Arsenals fans have afforded Mr W. Im of the view its created a complacency and stagnancy (so far as on pitch matters apply) that will take a new Coach 2-3 years to undo.

38. CanadaGooner

    Oct 10, 2013, 18:54 #40441

    @ Ron - hear hear! you couldn't have said it any better sir!

39. James

    Oct 10, 2013, 17:11 #40440

    Ron, You're a bit of an old grump who appears to be stuck in the 1970's, I bet you still have those Peter Storey mutton chops. I agree football can appear sterile these days and the money has taken over a lot and personally I far prefer the old players of yesteryear, but this is what we have and Arsenal still in my opinion do things the right way and when in 20 years time people look back I think Arsenal will come out quite well. Looking through your ten points Even though they are highly exaggerated there is still a lot of truth in them and I think you know it.

40. Westlower

    Oct 10, 2013, 17:08 #40439

    Ron, You've hit the nail on the head by saying it's leading up to the time the top clubs play in the Euro Super League. 2018 is being touted as the start date. As a result the Pl will also lose it's present lustre as the world moves on again! The top players will only sign for teams in the new Euro Super League and the domestic leagues will be feeders for the elite. Doesn't it make you glad we were at Highbury from the 60's onwards?

41. Spaced

    Oct 10, 2013, 17:05 #40438

    Ron, the insinuation I got from your post(s) is that you dislike people defending Wenger. What I was trying to say was that I defend him (get called an AKB) but I certainly don't think the guy is anywhere near perfect. The difficulty here is that we all answer a single point at a time (typing is sooo much slower than a good chat!). Whatever the article it always seems to end up in a Wenger bashing argument.

42. maguiresbridge gooner

    Oct 10, 2013, 17:03 #40437

    It was a dark moment Gavin and there were a lot more over eight years that people have conveniently forgotten now that there is a buzz about the place. And you weren't the only one to think that. If everything hadn't gone tits up against villa things might have been different as he has rebelled before. But things did go tits up and that along with being in his contract renewal year might have helped the inspiration. But when he did eventually succumb you couldn't have asked for any better in Ozil, and Flamini is certainly proving his worth, and another Ozil or two and the buzz would be deafening, and we'd really have a chance of competing on all fronts and winning our first piece of silverware for a long time.

43. Ron

    Oct 10, 2013, 16:57 #40436

    Westlower - to be honest matey, i think whatever views we all have on this issue it all ends up by us (for me anyway) asking why on earth should any Club ever be even in a euro tourny, that holds itself out as the 'champions' league, when such Clubs as ours arent the champions and not even looked like getting close to being so for so many years.Its eroded the Cups and importantly eroded also the desire now to be champions even. To answer your query earlier of why a Club with a team as avarage as Man U can win a title by 15 points? The answers easy for me. The other Clubs arent as motivated to win the title as they realise its not needed anymore. It takes outlay on far better players to bridge the gap from 2/3/4th to Champs and the Clubs say, 'sod it we dont need to win it'.Just CL entry is good enough. Its a situation that hits at the very root of the title chase and asll it stands for. Those who love the CL (and the effect its had on Clubs 'priorities' - which you support and fair enough) and all it stands for may well be rueing the day in a few years when the so called top Clubs from the top leagues all go and form a Euro league and before that when promotion and relegation is ended too. Its coming for sure.Its not if, its when. When it happens football and its TV bosses will have driven the last nail its own coffin. Maybe then all of this domestic Cup snobbery practised by the likes of Utd and Arsenal et al will be seen in a different light, though too late by then to change anything.

44. Ron

    Oct 10, 2013, 16:09 #40435

    Spaced - Im unsure where in the content of my post there is anything that makes you think that any conclusion that i have seem 'black and white'? Im expressing a view generally on the Club, Wenger, fans perceptions etc and its tinged with my perception of why football is as sterile and becoming as increasingly passionless as it is these days (in my view). If you mean the singular issue of 'do we bother with cups or not and if not, why not? then it is black and white. Arsenal dont and havent for years. The pitiful results show it. Do you have any evidence to the contrary to say that im wrong? Beyond that, im just expressing a few views on the issue. The pro AW brigade dont brook any type of criticism of him though as with any great omnicompetent and omnipresent deity. Its quite sad to see. He has lots of merits but lots of downsides too and his aproach to the Cups stinks foul in my view, thats all. Theyre all rightfully shown on here from to time.

45. Westlower

    Oct 10, 2013, 15:53 #40434

    Ron, I agree with both points 6 you have a) Arsene does know best b) Man U have refs & FA helping them. How could a team that ordinary win the PL by 15 points otherwise? We're not too big for the domestic cups but we have to give PL & CL priority. I can't believe Chelsea or Man U will field their first team in the next round of the LC. They to prioritise CL & PL and will be looking at the bigger picture. I'll cheer as loud as anyone should we win the LC but I fear it'll be at the expense of the other competitions. You cannot expect players to perform relentlessly at the top of their game regardless of travel & playing fatigue, loss of form, carrying or returning from injuries, representing their countries, etc. It takes up to 6 games for a returning player to reach his peak again and once reached it's impossible to sustain said form over a long period. As JW, AR, TV, AD, TR, TW, KG have found, secondary injuries, both physical & mental, flare up once back in the firing line. The manager has to juggle his resources to best effect and only he knows the current state of each individual player. It's easy for us undermining the coaching staff & players from the stands or pub with our perceived knowledge but we are not privy to the info which forms the basis of team selection, substitutions, tactics, etc. Why do you get so wrapped up in worrying what the clubs accountants are up to? Do you demand to know how much the boss of the brewery company earns when you're downing a pint of beer? Rejoice you support a club run with integrity & honesty, who continue to be the envy of many!

46. Spaced

    Oct 10, 2013, 14:56 #40433

    Ron, it is responses like that which are aimed to exacerbate the so called divide in the supporters. . . I am very much a fan of Wenger as manager of Arsenal, however, I do not agree with Westlower's view of the league cup. I firmly believe that we should go for all cups (1987 was my first trip to Wembley and I cherish the memory). Wenger is clearly not interested in winning this trophy and as such I think he is wrong. But this has never made me think that he is not the best man for the job. It's not as black and white as you would love to portray..

47. Benny2

    Oct 10, 2013, 14:51 #40432

    "I doub't CanadaGooner would be buzzing if you plugged him into the national grid! But I guess that's the closest we'll get to a positive post." hahaha nice

48. CT Gooner

    Oct 10, 2013, 14:48 #40431

    All I can say is if the reaction to the Villa display (note I say display, not result, we were crap) was the reverence Wenger has being given over the last couple of weeks, my belief is there would be no Ozil in North London, and perhaps no Flamini either. I thoroughly believe it was the pressure applied by disgruntled fans and the media that drove the powers that be to make a statement signing. and thank god! Now we have optimizism, somethin I haven't felt watching Arsenal for years....

49. Man United Killer

    Oct 10, 2013, 14:41 #40430

    @WestloWer.I just saw your response to my post yesterday, in which I referred to you as Westlover.Oh dear!LOL.

50. Frank

    Oct 10, 2013, 14:23 #40429

    So many articles about how great things are in October!!!! I still think we will finish 4th.Why?because Wenger wont go out in january and sign a quality striker we desperately need.4th is good enough for Wenger Gazidis and Stan and has been for years.Sorry to be realistic and burst your dreams

51. Ron

    Oct 10, 2013, 13:57 #40428

    GC - Youre retort (if you even get one) to your reply to Westlower will be 1. Theyre all financially doped Clubs and can afford to chase the lesser Cups or 2. Go and support spurs 3. Go and support Utd 3. Go and support chelsea or City 4. Arsenal are too 'classy'to bother with small fry Cups 5. We re a 'big' Club and if you dont like it go and watch Barnet . We ve a stadium to play for, are you delsuional! 6.Arsene knows, you know ziltch 6. Man Utd have all the refs and FA helping them 7. Too many games are nt good for classy Arsenals fine and sophisticated players of which no other Club on the planet has and we re unluckier than every club on the planet with injuries. 8. You dont understand modern football 9. Who do you think we are? QPR? 10 We ve outgrown the lesser Cups and wont get top top top players if we arent in the CL. ETC ETC ETC ETC . Theyre like zombies fella!

52. CanadaGooner

    Oct 10, 2013, 13:39 #40427

    @ Westlower: I would agree with you, if we had the slightest chance of winning the champions league. Chelsea have won it, and I'm sure they will field a strong team (same as they did in the Carling Cup final when they beat us a few years back) and their chances of winning the Champions League again are probably better than ours (as they now have the experience of having won it + they have an owner who wont let a manager get away with 8 years of winning nothing). so, what's your point? If Arsenal's too good for the Capital One Cup, why are chelsea and man utd still keen on it? Afterall they've won more champions league trophies than our tally of ZERO. I like people who can present credible, logical arguments and not just fluff!

53. Ron

    Oct 10, 2013, 13:34 #40426

    Westlower - Afternoon to you. In fairness i thnk CG s take on the League Cup shd be looked at in context and not in isolation as youve done. Its no moneyspinner for a start which is Arsenals REAL reason for aborting it(and the FAC too!)so often, not just the purported drive (used loosely) for the primary trophies which you allude too.CG s take on the Cups is like many of us. Arsenal have KNOWN that theyve not had a cats chance in hell of a title or a CL since at least 2007, yet have fed the gullible the illusion that they have. Some have bought it. Those who havent have always had the view that they could have gone for the Cups and still achieved what they have (the balance sheet trophy and 4th place Cup).Lets face it, even if theyve follwed your perceived 'policy' theyve got close to winning either Cup and on a few times have chosen to throw the towel in belatedly and inexplicably) when being so close. Had any Cup win have occured over the last 6 years, even just one of them, i dont think for one minute Wenger would get any stick from anyone, either now or before.It would have bought him and the Board more fan patience than they already had. In addition, the wisdom is that the teams Wenger has created in that period might just have garnered a 'winning' mentality as a result, which conceiveably might just have helped a few of his project youth flops to have grown and not been the flops they ended up becoming. Instead the Cups have been deliberately wasted and may well be again this season as CG says. To suggest as you do that playing the 3-5 games it takes to win the Carling Cup as well as sustaing a title push is piffle and just feeds the lie that these players are fed by Wenger. Ever likely they pick and choose games and play like dossers when it suits them too! Lets be clear, its money that informs Arsenal all day long.Nothing else. Winning the title makes no difference to them. May as well be 3rd/4th, as the cost of getting to the summit is less than actually winning it anyway and the outcome ie entry to the CL is the same bar a bit of favourable seeding here and there. The Club has no concept of a fan s desire for glory as is the case with the business model of any Corporation. Id venture to say that any of those players in recent years, if asked if they would have liked a different atitude from the top towards the Cups, with hindsight, most if not all would say yes. Youve followed the stagnant accountants line and took it hook line and sinker though, as many have it has to be said. Thats your choice and privelige, buts its wrong to dismiss CGs more fan oriented view as if hes a naughty boy and needs putting on the naughty step until he shows contrition for the errors of his ways. The truth is he 'feels' like a fan. You guys who worship at the alter of Arsenals accountants are like cold fish, whove lost your passion, zest ansd romance for the game. Thats why stadiums are like morgues (espacially Arsenals!) and why many fans are shunning a game thats dying at the feet of its tawdry televsion paymasters.

54. Spaced

    Oct 10, 2013, 13:34 #40425

    I doub't CanadaGooner would be buzzing if you plugged him into the national grid! But I guess that's the closest we'll get to a positive post. ;) Nice little article Gavin.

55. BADARSE

    Oct 10, 2013, 13:30 #40424

    @John Gooner, I think not pal. I reckon that top striker would have still gone, though neither of us can prove our case. I do know I saw a clip on the web, where he was borderline insulting to AFC, when discussing wage offers. He was offered almost a quarter of a million pounds per week, on a very long contract with bonuses dangled in front of him, plus of course a more realistic chance of honours. He grabbed the money and ran. In a financially dominated environment it is deemed acceptable, however morals and principles still wrestle with our realities. He is history. The king is dead, long live the king!

56. David

    Oct 10, 2013, 12:59 #40423

    Agree with CanadaGooner's sentiments - although 5 years rather than 8. It was clear after 2007/8 season that Arsenal needed a big signing. What became painfully obvious to everyone bar AW is that Arsenal had become a nursery for other clubs who showed their ambition by paying big wages and big transfer fees.

57. Westlower

    Oct 10, 2013, 12:43 #40422

    Canada Gooner, The logic you fail to grasp is simple. Why would you risk the first team in a LC game when we play Borussia Dortmund either side of that fixture plus vital games against Liverpool & Man U straight after. Being involved for too long in the League Cup can destroy our season. Prioritising the major trophies is THE logic for AFC. Let's try and win the meaningful competitions, we are not West Ham. In future transfer dealings no player worth his salt is going to join the LC Winners over a CL side. PL & CL is best for AFC!!! The Totts usually win a cup when the year ends in..whatever it is, but it usually ends dismally by not getting into the CL, while their classy neighbours do. Should we be in queer street come January then go for the FA Cup by all means but only if....hand me a paddle Canada!

58. Gavin Garthwaite

    Oct 10, 2013, 12:24 #40420

    Whilst I'm not getting carried away, it is a positive start and if we all got behind the club- then we will move in the right direction. WIth Dennis Bergkamp- I know he had a lot to prove still, but the feeling he gave us, the supporters, mirrors to that of signing Ozil. Purely on the fact that we had missed his type of player for many years. Also, he cost 7.5 million :-) Up the Gooners!

59. BADARSE

    Oct 10, 2013, 11:56 #40418

    Good for you CanadaGooner! Am genuinely pleased you too are buzzing. Personally I have never laid down provisos, as in,'hoping to end the season with at least the FA Cup'. It is OK to think this way, and probably it was just a throw away sentence, but it isn't my way. I see much in modern life garnered from the black or white brigade. With us or against! We must win! I have just celebrated 58 years as an Arsenal fan, only 12 were winning seasons for me. Offset that against bitter disappointments and the score line doesn't look so hot. Yet it doesn't work this way at all. Winning the Double in '71 wasn't negated by the Wembley defeat in '72. They stood apart. The same with the League Cup win in '87 and losing the following year. ECWC success in Copenhagen was a magical quest for me and a few others (Rocky RIP), in '94, it wasn't less of an event or memory, by my trip to the Parc des Princes the year after. I just try to enjoy the moment. I would just say not to put too much pressure on yourself Gooner, just let it be. Keep dreaming though fella.

60. Ron

    Oct 10, 2013, 11:56 #40417

    James - You really ought (for once)start to think before you type. The lesser lights have all beaten the likes of Utd and Chelsea at times for the last 8-9 years, as they have beaten Arsenal too. Thats the nature of the Prem League and long may it last (though your classification of a Club like Everton as if theyve no pedigree and are a lesser Club is perplexing - yet more evidence of your abilty to self delude coupled with naving ziltch knowledge of football pre Prem League) which ive pointed out to you before on another thread. The big difference here is that those Clubs you mention ie Utd Cheslea and City dont have a consistent record of bottling and thus losing most of their big games each season to go with their odd defeat in the 'smaller' games. Unless youve lived in a cocoon for the best part of the last decade, you might, just might, know that we have no such record in big games to fall back on, hence why many of us arent planning where we can get the best vantage point outside the Grove to see the triumphal bus slowly pass by next May. Bard is right to think how he does. Your entry onto this board as a poster is no surprise. There are quite a few 'Arsene can do no wrong' merchants whove crept from behind the skirtingboard like silverfish in the last few weeks. Carry on dreaming if you must. Its fine. Just dont think the last 9 years can be airbrushed from everybodys memory though.

61. Red Member

    Oct 10, 2013, 11:44 #40416

    amazing how everyone is getting carried away considering this team has hardly beaten anyone this season (apart from Spurs- and to be fair to Wenger we normally beat them anyway)looking at the November/December fixture list if this team is still in the top 4 by Christmas I will be happy. as for being title contenders not a chance. we have ONE half decent striker, no back up CBs and a few dodgy goalkeepers.

62. John Gooner

    Oct 10, 2013, 11:44 #40415

    It's been a long time since I've enjoyed watching Arsenal games as much as I have done this year - Even when we're scrapping for a 1 goal lead, it's still enjoyable. The key message from the fans to the management needs to be that the Ozil signing (and lack of selling any of our key players) is a great start, but it MUST be built upon in January. We need a world class striker to complete our attacking options; we finally have the right balance of skill and steel in the midfield, but we just need someone up top posessing that extra 10% Giroud lacks. I appreciate there is not an abundance of available world class strikers, but we can and should try. I can't help but feel that an Ozil style gesture 1 year earlier may have kept the world class striker we lost, but no point living in the past.

63. James

    Oct 10, 2013, 11:11 #40412

    Not the old decent teams Bard, So if Arsenal beat City, Manure and Chelsea all is well and we can celebrate winning the title as points against the lesser teams don't count. And how are the supporters of Manure, Chelsea and City going to think about playing us if they are beaten by West Brom, Everton and Cardiff.

64. Bard

    Oct 10, 2013, 10:52 #40410

    Euphoria looks like its setting in. It's great we're looking better balanced and more determined but can we hold fire until we play some decent teams. Sorry to dent the Wenger love in but this is where we should have been. We have flattered to deceive too often for me to brea kopen the champagne. If we get through to Xmas in good shape I will be a lot more confident.

65. CanadaGooner

    Oct 10, 2013, 10:43 #40409

    I wont argue that BADARSE. I've been at every home game so far and 1 away game; so, must be buzzing! Looking forward to Norwich and Liverpool at home in coming weeks. What's making me buzz is actually Flamini right now! We currently do not look like a side that Bradford or Blackburn can brush aside. With Ramsey & Ozil hopefully ticking along nicely, hopefully Cazorla and Wilshere will join in at some point (with goals) and I am hoping to end this season with at least the FA Cup. Capital One Cup now looks unlikely, as I'm sure the Great Monsieur Wenger will go and play a bunch of kids against Chelsea yet again - I just cant get that logic!

66. BADARSE

    Oct 10, 2013, 10:33 #40408

    Ron, a precise and informative post, buddy. Bergy had a lot to prove to himself, thankfully he did. Then he went on to prove it to the footballing world. Very much an unknown purchase, but he came. How might our history have unfolded, had he not come? or just thrown in the towel after half a dozen trying and difficult games for us, when it could have gone either way?

67. Ron

    Oct 10, 2013, 10:18 #40407

    Without wishing to pick you up too much, Dennis B had much to prove when he joined us too. His time in Italy was miserable for him. His Coach had expressed frustration with him. The Dutch themsleves were feeling that he was not going to step up etc etc. DB was disenchanted with football. He wasnt scoring not getting regular games. How else do you think we signed him for 8.5 million? A DB playing at a peak he reched with us ultimately wdt have joined Arsenal as the Board wdt have found the money. He was seen as a cut price gamble buy, despite his known (but thought to be lost) pedigree.

68. BADARSE

    Oct 10, 2013, 10:15 #40406

    @ CanadaGooner, but 'buzz factor', nonetheless. Thanks Gavin. I am very uncertain of knock on effects of any sort, but hopefully a ripple is running through most Arsenal fans, and this in turn may also transfer itself to the team. This is perhaps a Tesco moment, 'Every little helps'.

69. Ajee Coffee

    Oct 10, 2013, 10:13 #40405

    Better late than never..

70. CanadaGooner

    Oct 10, 2013, 9:25 #40402

    Buzz factor 8 years late