A Twenty Game Assessment

The season so far



A Twenty Game Assessment


The position, as we prepare to embrace 2014's Premier League commitments, is becoming tangible. Anyone who is aware enough can see the map of the route to the title, and the likely outcome of the race. Firstly, though, it is perhaps prudent to rewind and reflect on the journey so far. Before a ball was kicked, we had the usual suspects posing and preening, the pretenders aping them but in a clumsy and over-the-top fashion. An irrelevant ingredient, certainly to Arsenal fans, was the media pundits’ two pennyworth, and that in all honesty was its true value - two pence!

We at the Arsenal have had to listen to these power-fuelled fools for years, until we began to see that the emperor wasn't wearing clothes and slowly began to switch off mentally. Sadly, as with all things in life, they still influence some. The power of the spoken word, especially cloaked in faux importance through TV and radio appearances, still beguiles some. They in turn espouse the off-the-shelf views and patent them as their own original ones. So the mentality gathers pace like a snowball tumbling downhill. It doesn't mean anything, but views are often clouded in the smokescreen created by it. It all needs discarding; instantly it is by many, and summarily it is by the rest.

What did we know? Well we certainly knew we were a better shot than the footballing establishment gave us credit for. Also that Tottenham finishing above us was another unlikely pipedream. We were asking - in some quarters demanding - a "world class" striker, and we perhaps felt it would seriously affect our season, as it still might, because one didn't arrive. Still, we got Mesut Ozil, which was heralded as a step in the right direction, but the plaintive plea for a striker continues and may be realised before the month is out, but I shan't be holding my breath. However our form throughout 2013 has been consistent and that has been a missing ingredient for too long, so feelings were guardedly optimistic amongst many of the brethren. One or two setbacks along the way occurred but our ship was steadied and ploughed on through the choppy seas. Now the waters are more pacific.

Before the season began the main contenders shaped as thus - the original and perennial top four, namely Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City and Man Utd were ready and all but ourselves with new figureheads. Conjecture ensued that perhaps it would affect the other three. Perhaps it would. The second tier of the top teams comprised notably Tottenham, Liverpool and Everton. Most imagined the top four contesting CL places and the other three battling for the crumbs of the Europa League. Due to the domino effect, Everton had a new man at the helm, Liverpool had an unsettled and suspended Suarez, and Tottenham were playing silly buggers as usual. Selling their one world-class player and doing a supermarket sweep; that was seriously suspect. There were never going to be any other players.

So the season was under way and slowly gathered a head of steam. Suarez came back, and with the loudest of bangs. Everton maintained their prowess, Man U started to unravel, Man City looked inconsistent as usual, Chelsea always ominous but a little less so. We surprised ourselves by continuing our early year form, with a tighter defence, more maturity and a bigger sense of belief, both amongst the team and the fans. Tottenham, refusing to live up to their own pre-season hype, went in circles again, dispensing with their manager en route, and as likely as not soon to dispense with his replacement. The early season interlopers, Southampton and latterly Newcastle always able to hurt the biggest seven, are not able to sustain any worthwhile challenge. So slowly we see them fade off the pace.

Twenty games in, a new year beckoning, and we have the shape of things to come. We are riding high by a point with the two juggernauts of Man City and Chelsea breathing down our necks. Only just registering on the radar in seventh place, a shell-shocked Man U, and their most ambitious inclination is to get above Tottenham who occupy sixth place. That speaks volumes. Tottenham, of course, confuse and confound themselves so probably their ambition is to just stay in contact with Man U. That leaves Everton, who are easily able to compete with Liverpool, providing the "Suarez effect" bubble bursts soon. So, in summary, we see the likely champion coming from the top three. Can we keep up the momentum? Are Chelsea strong enough to go to the front and stay there? Can Man City overcome their poor away form and stride on for the title? Who gets the fourth CL spot? Liverpool if they keep their heads and their best player? Everton, who look more equipped than their neighbour and will rely much less on one player? Tottenham, if they find an unlikely magic lamp? Or Man U, who look rudderless but can always surprise?

In our heart of hearts, we probably expected a similar development in the league places to date, with a few tweaks happening here and there. We knew we would be good enough to offer but not perhaps to dictate, and our two rivals are no surprise. Merseyside would as likely as not send its two warriors in to contest the last CL place, Man U we guessed and hoped would struggle due to the changeover and so it's proven, and Tottenham? Well that's just Tottenham for you. Eighteen games to go, positions not cemented yet but giving the strongest suggestion that they may be very close to the finishing order. An interesting season so far. Let's hope the interest from Arsenal fans runs throughout. It just might, you know.


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177
comments

  1. Westlower

    Jan 13, 2014, 8:17 #44163

    North Bank man see's what he wants to see. Isn't he a bit like you and me?

  2. BADARSE

    Jan 12, 2014, 20:20 #44159

    He's a real North Bank Man, sitting in his North Bank Stand, making all his North Bank chants for Arsenal!

  3. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jan 12, 2014, 15:42 #44152

    Ron, more chance if he's given somebody else's, can they do head transplants?

  4. Westlower

    Jan 12, 2014, 13:46 #44149

    "Still crazy after all these years"

  5. Ron

    Jan 12, 2014, 13:25 #44148

    Danny - How does that one work then? Struggling at Villa? We ve not lost there since 1998. Long may we struggle!

  6. jjetplane

    Jan 12, 2014, 13:20 #44147

    ' ... old friends/Sat on their plastic seats/like Clockends'

  7. BADARSE

    Jan 12, 2014, 11:02 #44143

    'And the words of westlower and BADARSE are written on the subway walls, and tenement halls...'.

  8. Westlower

    Jan 12, 2014, 10:18 #44137

    @Badarse, Eyes right! Playing some Paul Simon this morning, great lyrics: Sound of Silence: Hello Arsene my old friend, I've come to talk to you again. Bridge Over Troubled Water: Sail on AFC, sail on by, your time has come to shine, all your dreams are on there way, see how they shine.

  9. BADARSE

    Jan 12, 2014, 10:07 #44136

    Morning all. westlower living in a capitalist society ( globalisation has made it a capitalist world)does not necessarily make one a capitalist. I play monopoly with the family occasionally, and I always play to win. I too have been both sides of the divide in our society, and it is still very much divided I am afraid. My experiences were almost role-playing, but then life is a game. If we went to the Arsenal together chum, you would always find me standing on your left.

  10. Danny

    Jan 11, 2014, 16:22 #44134

    Well Chelsea and won and gone Top. Citeh probably will win tomorrow and we will struggle as usual against VILLA on Monday We are two weeks into JANUARY and not seen any proactive moves in the Transfer market to get another quality striker. My hopes are not high with this senile coach

  11. Westlower

    Jan 11, 2014, 12:16 #44133

    @Ron, Agree completely about Berbatov. Too lazy, the team would have to carry him and it's bound to upset the dressing room. As we only play with one striker upfront the three we have should be enough despite all the media outsiders telling us that a new striker is essential. We're not set up to be totally dependent on a prolific striker as the goals are spread around the team. All our midfielders & attackers are capable of scoring.

  12. Ron

    Jan 11, 2014, 11:10 #44132

    Westie - hard to see anyone coming in isnt it.As you say, that kid s unlikely to hit the floor running. It seems a bad situ on its face, but why shdt Podster and Bendtner step up. I know we all have a dig at NB, but he s never really had an extended run as an out and out striker, hes been a winger, a hole player and whatever else etc. Maybe, given his head he might still surprise ...? Even Chamakhs knocking a few in now given security of a run. I know its a different level now for the latter, but we ve only got what we ve got.Id sooner nobody than Berbatov anyway. PS RVP - Hes back to his normal health by the looks of it. His fitness was never going to hold up, good as he maybe still is.

  13. Ron

    Jan 11, 2014, 10:58 #44131

    Good man Chris. Yes, it was good wasnt it. That BBC 4 thing on Fridays often is. Ive only recently noticed it.On the hey joe stuff, maybe his best, its literally 5 chords and a bit of a riff. Trying to play it myself. Strange though mate, it never sounds like him , even when ive got it on you tube as backing!Take all of your points re Amos. Credit to him though as well as my criticisms , hes a remorseless advocate for his views.I think hes Gazadis masquerading as Amos really.

  14. Westlower

    Jan 11, 2014, 10:58 #44130

    Seems AFC are not pursuing the loan signing of Alvaro Morata from Real Madrid. He probably lacks the experience to be effective for AFC this season but would be a good long term buy. Only made 24 appearances for RM, scoring 4 goals. Star of the Spain U/21 team. Very similar profile to Yaya Sanogo, who made 21 appearances for Auxerre, scoring 11 goals. Yaya was the leading scorer with 4 goals when France won the FIFA U/20 World Cup. Be interested to see how Yaya copes with English football on his return from a back injury.

  15. Chris

    Jan 11, 2014, 10:31 #44129

    Ron - Took your advice and caught the end of Hendrix last night - Purple Haze with a ten minute Jimi excursion and the encore Hey Joe. Top stuff, although I'd say it's the feeling rather than the hand speed that marks him out - hyper-speed guitar merchants are ten a penny these days but they leave me cold where Jimi's bluesy funky feeling and ability to tell a story with his guitar alone mark him out for someone coming from a more funky jazzy direction such as myself. Re Amos - yo are right Ron but I think Amos' style comes from his frustration at some people determination to believe that the governance of this self-sustaining profitable apparently well-run club who's team is managed by a demonstrably over-achieving widely respected manager with many notable achievements to his name is in fact based purely on cynical bare faced greed and managerial cowardice and incompetence. They prefer to believe that because they are frustrated that the team's on-field success doesn't meet their expectations, expectations that again can be demonstrated to be unrealistic. So yes, there are persuasive views rather than absolute truths but I imagine Amos' frustration comes from the fact that so many wish to take a negative and cynical view of the club and its manager rather than taking the objective view that actually, things are looking pretty good (even if we have seen some frustrating years). Over the next years, we will either be able to see that he was right if we see continued greater investment in the team or wrong if we start seeing massive bonuses for Arsene and dividends for Kroenke. May be it will be both in which case ticket prices will be the gripe of the day....

  16. Ron

    Jan 11, 2014, 9:54 #44128

    Mike - That he did. Theres always the need to convey a sound, evidentially based argument though by combining it with respect for the points made by others, rather than dismissing them with a surly disdain. There are persuasive views, but there's rarely any absolute truths. If he was a barrister, he d be destitute and sleeping in a bus shelter using his techniques.

  17. Mike

    Jan 11, 2014, 9:37 #44127

    Hope Amos comes back - I think he kept the others on their toes and backed up his arguments diligently and had them scurrying off to double check their statements - if it was a boxing match it would have been called off after the first few posts

  18. Ron

    Jan 11, 2014, 9:15 #44126

    Westie - Good stuff. Its only later in life ive got into the Doors. Its needed to learn a bit about Morrison and then its the lyrics that do it. Lots of feeling in them. Switched myself off from politics some years back. I fear for this country though as the kids are all totally dissafected by it as well. We need to get them stirred, there needs to be a rebellious streak in them. Instead theyre all utterly disinterested in the characterless, grey, featureless, self serving, careerist, sound bite, merchants we re lumbered with, hence its carte blanche for Cameron and his non entity types to do as they will. I understand why theyre like it though. Arsenes a man of great integrity and morals i reckon. On one hand he d make a great politician intellectually, but i suspect he lacks the ability to morph into a slimebag so hes best to leave it alone.

  19. Westlower

    Jan 11, 2014, 8:57 #44125

    Ron, I never really got into the Doors, perhaps I used to eat the wrong type of mushroom. Trivia: Richard Hannon the champion racehorse trainer was the original drummer of a pub band that went on to be the Troggs. Roger Daltry is a Gooner but it always disappointed be that Paul Weller supports Chelsea. I'm amazed, because it's well known he doesn't like to be surrounded by bankers! As for tribute bands, Spurs sent a tribute team to the Emirates last week. They wore lookalike kit but they played like the frauds they have become! @Badarse, I must confess I held a bookmakers license back in the 80's which makes me an ex turf accountant & by definition a capitalist. On the other extreme I was a shop steward in the 70's when you had to belong to a union to get a job in industry, hence my love of the song Joe Hill. Got to meet our local MP, Clement Freud & Euro MP Sir Fred Catherwood when our factory was closed down (turbulant times). So I've experienced both spectrum's (what happened to our friend from Oz?)of the political ideology. I live my life somewhere in the middle these days, swinging from side to side. My life experience has taught me that race horses, greyhounds & Arsene Wenger are more honest & predictable than politicians.

  20. Ron

    Jan 11, 2014, 8:24 #44124

    Westie - Ha . You wont stop me dreaming though. Teaching myself 'Bad Moon Rising' at the time of writing fella!!Another band i loved and still do , Credence. Saw a 'tribute' band to Credence a few weeks back. The original drummer with them. Really good. Good prog on about Jim Morrison after Hendrix last night.Did you see? The Who - Great band. Theyre a name that create schoolboy memories for me more than other bands for some reason.

  21. BADARSE

    Jan 11, 2014, 8:03 #44123

    Morning Jean Valjean, a beautiful ballad 'Joe Hill', and he isn't dead he is still alive in me for one. You are correct my 49 game chum. That number has a resonance with AFC! Yes some people forget so quickly and so easily, and others just never knew or want to know. To the barricades!

  22. BADARSE

    Jan 11, 2014, 7:52 #44122

    Morning gentlemen, anyone read the Financial Times yet? I haven't either but I think the fiscal policies of Greece are still not under control, and then we have the BRIC group of nations, as in Brazil, Russia, India and China creating financial tsunamis, and seemingly the MINT group, as in Mexico, Indonesia, Nigeria and Turkey, likely to explode onto the world's trading markets anytime soon. "Big Issue Guv?"

  23. Westlower

    Jan 11, 2014, 7:49 #44121

    @Badarse, The devil is in the detail? My stats are based on seasons 46/47 to 95/96. I've just checked again and I still come up with 49 games. If I'm wrong, I'm consistently wrong! My point being some of our older fans may have forgotten how many mediocre teams we've witnessed over the years, while our younger fans have never seen a bad Arsenal side (they only think they have). Someone accused me of being an accountant, nothing could be further than the truth, I'm no more an accountant than Ron is a rock guitarist! That'll upset him. Joan Baez wise, I prefer Joe Hill to Biko. Watched THE WHO live at the Albert Hall DVD last night, beats Hendrix every day of the week. "If I speak I am condemned, if I stay silent I am damned. Who am I?"

  24. jeff wright

    Jan 10, 2014, 22:49 #44120

    Well Chris I did admit to having made mistakes with the stats I posted whereas Amos on the other hand never admits to being wrong about anything. His stats that he dug up to try and show that everything was going fine and there was no need to sign Arshavin are typical of the disingenuous way in which he operates. My view on Wenger's struggle to beat the top sides extends to his obsession with winning the CL. He's said that this is his ambition and there is a bit of an anomaly here because if he can't beat the top sides in head to heads then how the heck will he ever win the CL ? I stick with my view as well that to win the league it helps to beat your rivals - as well as just the lower sides because you deprive them of points . Amos is wont to quote United winning it without doing so, but that was a freak result like their treble, and not the norm. As I recall all the other sides dropped an unusual amount of points against the rif - raf while Ferguson's gang plundered points from them. I think that were a few draws also between the other top teams that also favoured United's cause. That scenario will not happen this season and anyway we have dropped points home and away already against lower sides when we had our players fit and in form . It will all get tougher now as the season goes on and the pressure to keep winning increases. The non-signing of a striker also does not help and this must cast doubts on the claims that Amos makes that there is now more money available for Wenger to spend. There certainly is money in the accounts,but what Stan intends doing with it is something that only he knows. We do know that he never tried to put pressure on Liverpool by saying, okay you guys you want 50 milliion for Suarez then here it is! He was probably terrified that Liverpool would accept it.

  25. Ron

    Jan 10, 2014, 22:26 #44119

    Bo-----s to all this stuff guys. Hendrix. BBC 4. No finances. No disputes. Just sheer genius in action when a guitar becomes part of the man. Drool at the hand speed guys. Therein lies the secret. G nite.

  26. Chris

    Jan 10, 2014, 22:00 #44118

    Jeff - That's a laugh coming from someone who consistently displays a clumsy cack-handed half grasp of any stats presented and who endless trots of his mantra about results against the top four being decisive full stop when anyone who thinks about it objectively can see that yes they could be but not necessarily as it depends on all the other results... The funny thing is, most anti-Wenger folk when directly pressed squeal that no, trophies aren't all important to them, it's competing properly for them that is - yet they spend most of the rest of the time banging on about the lack of them. If you and SGRB would like to see a roller-coaster style of club governance that sees us win the odd trophy and then fall back for years that's fine and you're totally entitled to that view but the points that the likes of Amos have been trying to make illustrate that actually, with finances being so important in this day and age, things could go very wrong with that kind of strategy and you might find we ended up languishing for longer than you'd expect if we tried it. I've got sympathy for your view if you find it boring but I still think that the steady-as-you-go approach is best for the club over all (even if, contradictarily, I would love to see us splash out on more top signings such as Higuain as well as Ozil last summer). But really, chaps, b*tch away all you like but I really don't think it's going to happen.

  27. jeff wright

    Jan 10, 2014, 21:28 #44117

    SGB,Amos believes that his own interpretation of statistics ( he seems to be well armed with them !) is the only conclusion that can be made from them. The results in the games directly prior to Arshavin joining were not top 4 ones ,but more like relegation. On finances I believe that posters like Amos use them like a crutch to lean on and try in a clumsy cack-handed sort of way to try and use them divert attention away from the lack of success on the field of play . Okay 17 top 4 finishes is a success of sorts , just liuke going unbeaten through a season is, that doesent mean much though if you fail to win the league. It's possible mathmatically to go unbeaten and get relegated . No one would be celebrating that.Anyway just 4 of those seasons saw Wenger winning anything. On a time scale compared with the time that other managers had in their tenures this is not very good. And they never had yawn inducing 4th place is a trophy for an excuse either - they actually had to win real ones.

  28. BADARSE

    Jan 10, 2014, 21:16 #44116

    Hi westlower from your post regarding time from WW11 to Arsene taking over, want to query years buddy. Either 39-96, or 45-96. So either 57 or 51 years. Am I reading it correctly? By the way in the musical feasts we recently talked of, we both skipped over a few favourites I am sure, one a mutual love, was Joan Baez. Her rendition of Biko still sends shivers through me, just imagining her voice singing it. Particularly apt at this time, with Nelson Mandela's death so fresh in our memories.

  29. Chris

    Jan 10, 2014, 21:04 #44115

    SGRB - I think you should have said 'unless you're insiders, you don't know whether you have'. But even so, the facts that have been endlessly repeated speak for themselves - I suppose ultimately what you or anyone else does with them is your business. John Gooner - you are of course right, but we have to have some sort of yardstick against which to measure whether enough has been delivered. That's why consideration of the context of finances becomes necessary.

  30. John Gooner

    Jan 10, 2014, 20:50 #44114

    Good lord finances are dull! Are we accountants or football fans - some are accountants I suspect? Wenger's job is to deliver on the pitch, I don't care if he single-handedly solves the European debt crisis, if he doesn't deliver on the pitch he needs replacing. At the moment we are top and the football is enjoyable, Wenger have to do everything they can to ensure that deficiencies in the squad are addressed so that we can carry the momentum through to the end of the season. Who knows, we might even win something!

  31. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Jan 10, 2014, 20:32 #44113

    Chris, if the implication is support the status quo indefinitely then no, I don't think people would like that implication. And you're still implying 'the situation' has no scope for conjecture, that you and Amos have stumbled upon the absolute truth. Unless you're insiders, you haven't.

  32. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Jan 10, 2014, 20:14 #44112

    @jeff wright, Amos's stats are correct for the 25/13 game split but there is also validity in saying the Nov-Dec results may have continued in a decline that would have meant AFC would not have qualified for the CL had Arshavin not been signed. Just goes to show again it's not only what you look at, but how and from where. There are no absolute conclusions to be drawn.

  33. Westlower

    Jan 10, 2014, 20:11 #44111

    Finsbury Joe, I hope you've regained your composure after being knocked out of the cup by that overrated lot down the road. Sadly for you, I believe Palace will turn you Totts over tomorrow. Did you know Palace have only lost once on their last 8 visits to the Lane? Doesn't sound too clever for the Lilywhites does it? In contrast AFC haven't lost on any of their last 14 visits to Villa Park.

  34. Chris

    Jan 10, 2014, 20:07 #44110

    SGRB - I'm only seeking to clarify because I think it adds weight to what Amos is saying that others have come up with it independently, and I don't think he was seeking backing but trying to help people understand the situation. I think your last sentence is almost right, though - I think people do understand what he was saying but don't like the implications.

  35. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Jan 10, 2014, 19:25 #44109

    A little sensitive, Chris. To say he has your backing isn't the same as saying your views originate from his. Maybe some people understood but didn't agree with his conclusions. You make it sound like he was on a truth crusade.

  36. Chris

    Jan 10, 2014, 19:05 #44108

    SGRB - The fact that Amos' views uncannily echoes those I have been espousing here and elsewhere for 18 months or so (with the additional of some accounting expertise) reflects their independent and verifiable validity, not any influence Amos has had. He may or may not concede it but I disagree quite strongly with your assertion that he's been kept on his toes - he's been fighting a losing battle to get those with deeply entrenched views to understand but that's completely different.

  37. jeff wright

    Jan 10, 2014, 18:56 #44107

    That should read 'poor results during november and december...

  38. jeff wright

    Jan 10, 2014, 18:38 #44106

    Amos,once again you are trying to distort facts and stats to suit your argument. The real stats though just pror to AA joining us disprove your theory that all was going well . In fact the signing of Arshavin was a big boost to the team that was struggling and to the supporters with some poor results during late November and January causing concern that we might miss out on a CL place. Results improved after the grumpy dwarf was signed. He may have not lived up to expectations in the following seasons but he did in his first half a season stint. He's not the only player though who has deteriorated under Wenger's coaching and medical regime after making a bright start . Being played out of position a lot did not help and he probably realized that he had joined the wrong club. Hey,watch out for that little German/Turk playboy now. He's a big fan of Jose they share a mutual admiration of one another. Nov 22 FT Manchester City 3-0 Arsenal 44,878 Premier League Nov 30 FT Chelsea 1-2 Arsenal 41,760 Premier League Dec 2 FT Burnley 2-0 Arsenal 19,045 Capital One Cup (Quarter-finals) Dec 6 FT Arsenal 1-0 Wigan Athletic 59,317 Premier League Dec 10 FT FC Porto 2-0 Arsenal 37,602 UEFA Champions League (2008 First Phase) Dec 13 FT Middlesbrough 1-1 Arsenal 27,320 Premier League Dec 21 FT Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool 60,094 Premier League Dec 26 FT Aston Villa 2-2 Arsenal 42,585 Premier League Dec 28 FT Arsenal 1-0 Portsmouth

  39. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jan 10, 2014, 18:21 #44105

    Ron, they do give out vouchers for a free beer now and again, but i'm sure we'd all settle to be rewarded by actually winning something.

  40. BADARSE

    Jan 10, 2014, 18:12 #44104

    Chris thanks for the input. Nice to connect as I value your opinion. Your observation is on the button. I am aware of the ASD problems, albeit at a limited level, a grassroots level if you like. Yes I think your analysis is probably close to the truth, wherever it isn't a correct diagnosis it crosses into comedic nonetheless. So I think the order of the day is to encourage people to try differently, not harder. Forward Arsenal!

  41. Amos

    Jan 10, 2014, 17:36 #44103

    @jeff wright. Just one more little nugget of information for you to consider concerning your impression that we would not have qualified for the CL in 2009 without Arshavin. In order to qualify we needed just 20 points from the point at which AA started playing for us. In the previous 25 games we had averaged 1.76 points per game. From the remaining games we are now able to see that we would have qualified with an average as little as 1.54 points per game. Therefore we only needed to have done as well as we were doing in order to qualify but could also have performed at only 87.5% of our previous level. Ergo we would have qualified with or without Arshavin and needn't have carried him at great cost for the following 4 years. You'll thank me one day.

  42. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Jan 10, 2014, 17:20 #44102

    @Westlower, yes, that is another indisputable stat. Think we're in a unique position at AFC; I'm not aware of another club that's had consistent top 4 finishes but no trophies for so long. So from one angle: top 4 every time = success. Another angle: no trophies = failure. Both are true. This leads to the potential for a unique polarisation amongst the fanbase - a potential realised on these pages. @Amos, if you really are off, then yes, here's to a good season's end. I don't know if you'd concede it or not but it looks to me like a few posters have kept you on your toes, plus you've had unequivocal backing from the likes of Chris and Westlower, so perhaps your 'faint hope' has been realised in that respect.

  43. Ron

    Jan 10, 2014, 16:32 #44101

    Amos - Yes matey, heres to a good seasons end as you say. Ive no discontent at all. Im a footie fan first and Gunner 2nd.Thats why ive no hesitation in criticising them. Win lose or draw, its all fine by me. Its not important enough, though the post PL and SKY fueled media has made it so for many people. Im just wondering if Arsenal would ever make a gesture like Munich have just done for their fans? I know the answer to that one though, thats why i only do a handful of games each season these days and dont really see the Club as having any great sway over my life.

  44. Ron

    Jan 10, 2014, 16:20 #44100

    Westie - Indeed it is an impressive stat and our Coach shd be very proud of it. Most supporters are. I am, as one who feels Arsenes time is nigh for sure. What purpose does it serve though other than to make you feel safe in staving off any type of critique of AWs continued tenure? Across those 49 years, there were power shifts between clubs for a multitude of reasons stemming from changes in the game and within Clubs and thus some Clubs were eased out of contention as in any sport. Certainly in AW s 17 years, theres a easy case that cd be set out suggesting that to finish top 4 in the top echelons of the game has never been easier to achieve for a Club of Arsenals resouces, certainly for that period between 1996 and 2004 and similarly between 04 and the present when the chasm between the haves and have nots stretched to 4/5 Clubs instead of the two clubs of the earlier period. Hes been lucky to manage in the era of the PL. Theres a reason why those 5 Clubs (inc Arsenal Tottenham and Everton) trampled remorselessly all over the rest of the old 1st division to ensure the PL was set up. The main one was the sure fire hegemony that youre celebrating.

  45. jeff wright

    Jan 10, 2014, 16:20 #44099

    Amos,Arshavin was one reason why Wenger has been able to keep us in the top 4 for 17 years. Without signing him we would not have made the top 4 in that season. So taking account of the money made from the following CL campaign,and the knock on negatives that would have followed on not to qualify for the CL,I think that the money spent on AA was well spent. Westie as I have pointed out finishing in the top 4 was not a priority for other managers,winning trophies was more important. So your points are irrelevant.

  46. Amos

    Jan 10, 2014, 16:09 #44098

    Ron - Clearly I've got too much spare time! My posts can't prove me right but you can prove me wrong if you really believe I am. I'm not seeking the last word at all it just seemed rude of me not to respond you having taken the trouble to raise some issues that called for clarification. Really I'm just entertaining myself spending too much time on the Online Groaner with just a faint hope that something worthwhile could arise from a more informed debate. I suspect many of you will be much happier not to have your prejudices challenged too vigorously so I'll bid farewell and allow you enjoy the tranquillity of your discontent. Here's hoping the rest of the season goes well!

  47. Westlower

    Jan 10, 2014, 16:06 #44097

    A history lesson for those of you who take a top 4 finish as a given. In the 49 years from the second world war until Wengers appointment, AFC finished in the top 4 on only 15 occasions in 49 seasons (30.6%), compared to Wengers reign of 17 out of 17 (100%)for top 4. No other Arsenal manager comes close.

  48. Amos

    Jan 10, 2014, 15:59 #44096

    @jeff wright. I'm not at all amazed that not everyone shares my views. If they did this thread would be just one post long. I am amazed however that you can still conclude that I am denying the new stadium can be taken into account when assessing Wengers last 9 years tenure. I invite you to tell me just how and where I did this. Wenger might have had a higher wage bill than the spuds in absolute terms but in terms of their respective revenues the Spuds spending was slightly higher. I invite you to give some thought to the significance of that point. In assessing whether the policy of recruiting young players that show some prospect of becoming world class players with which we can claim justifiably a measure of success I invite you to consider that Arshavin, a proven world class player???, cost us more over the currency of his contract than Denilson, Bendtner and Chamakh combined. Denilson started and played more games for us and Bendtner has played more games and scored more goals. So which was the greater waste of money? (hint: look also at revenues from loan agreements) It's at least questionable isn't it! I don't have to know much about Arsenal's financial goings on all the information is readily available to anyone wishing to access it. You only need do so yourself to try to prove me wrong rather than simply asserting that I am. It's far more transparent than you and one or two others are prepared to accept.

  49. jeff wright

    Jan 10, 2014, 15:54 #44095

    Westie, yes it has been an achievement by Wenger to keep us in the top 4 . Of course this was not so important to other managers years ago when the CL TV money did not exist, so we have to take this into account . Also during GG's tenure English clubs were at one time banned from playing in Europe so dom cups , like the now despised LC and FAC, were more important then and credit should be given to George for him winning those trophies - and also the European Cup Winners Cup when we were allowed back to the Euro fun-fest as well. Mee also won a Euro Cup to drag us out of the past and into the future - again finishing 4th in the league meant little in those days with as low as 7th place sometimes earning a UEFA Cup ,or whatever it was called , place. Again as now winning the League or FAC provided a Euro comp place, it's a bit of a poisoned chalice now of course if you win a spot in the Europa League ,it's almost enough to justify a club breaking Platini's nonsensical FFP rules so has to avoid that fate! Chapman and Allison of course had no '4th place in the league is a trophy' to fall back on in their days, with no Euro comps in existence, so they had to make do with winning back to back titles and dom cups. Everything in football is relevant to circumstances that prevail at the time and this change like the wind from decade to decade . Of course no other manager at AFC had 17 years in which to finish in the top 4 anyway, so they can only be judged in comparison to Wenger on their own records regarding what they achieved in their own time . My view is that Wenger ,the most Euro orientated manager of all,has let himself down by failing to win a Euro trophy in two finals. So there is not much really to get excited about regarding his Euro record. Chapman edges it for me regarding domestic greatness over Wenger. It is of course all a matter of opinion as are most things in football . Unless Amos is claiming something ,then it must be a fact. C'est la vie!

  50. Ron

    Jan 10, 2014, 15:51 #44094

    Amos - Ive not 'ignored' anything youve said. I just choose not to answer youre every post. Ive not the time.Your last post still hasnt proven you to be right either however much you keep gnawing away at everything like my black Labbie here with his bone. Youre quite well informed on many matters, that im not, henec ive no choice not to respond really. Whether youre understanding is the same if i was, isnt possible to know of course. You do give the impression though that if youre head was severed and rolling across my office floor that you would still probably eke out the last word whatever it took.

  51. Amos

    Jan 10, 2014, 15:34 #44093

    Ron - There's opinion that is verifiable and that which isn't - opinion that is supported and that which isn't. The information that I have given where I have given specific information is verifiable if you wish to take the trouble to verify it. You can do so simply enough and I invite you to do so and come back and correct any misinterpretation you think I may be guilty of. At the same time much of the information that Jeff gave, such as the claim that Wenger has made £311m profit on transfers during his tenure can be dismissed with just a cursory knowledge of the transfer market but again information is freely available. He also claimed that there is no correlation between wages and transfer fees which, assuming you have followed other posters as well, you can see the fault line in that interpretation of a fact. Neither does his likening of the liabilities in discharging player contract to selling his own car support your notion that the interpretation of facts are equal. His theory on the Ozil transfer, in its various and changing forms, is an interpretation not supported by the information in the public domain as I and others have demonstrated. I have also said that there is a debate to be had about whether the skill set that Wenger has employed successfully in the past is needed to the same extent in the future. You have chosen to ignore this just as you have the points earlier made which were not solely financial despite you asserting them as such. I can understand that you might feel a little protective or defensive towards some one leaning towards your prejudices and it might be that which leads to your indignant tone but it appears to me to be the sort of indignation expressed by a motorist caught for speeding. Similarly the haughtiness you ascribe to me could also be fairly levelled at someone who believes they are the ones in the middle area when standing on one side of the debate and protective of only one side of that debate. Your accusation that westlower was suggesting that he is more intelligent than others is also, deliberate or otherwise, a clear and unfair misrepresentation and equally rude. One persons closed mind can be anothers single mindedness so it need not be a barrier to whatever individual achievements we make as individuals but that some minds are closed to counter argument is a fair enough observation on a football forum if the evidence supports that conclusion.

  52. Westlower

    Jan 10, 2014, 15:12 #44092

    SGRB, AW is also the only manager in our history who's never allowed AFC to drop out of the top 4. Over 17 years that in itself is an amazing achievement!

  53. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Jan 10, 2014, 14:54 #44091

    Amos, there is no disputing that you've taken the time to acquire more data than many others have. Nevertheless you interpret and/or select from the data in a way that suits your prejudices, just as we all do. You never, for instance, highlight 'negative' stats (e.g. Wenger is the longest serving manager without a trophy in our history) as such 'negative' stats do not suit the impression you wish to give. As such, your opinions have no more intrinsic value than anyone else's who uses data to their own ends. Certainly they have more value than those who would just shout words to the effect that 'Wenger is a ***' or 'Wenger is great'.

  54. jeff wright

    Jan 10, 2014, 14:54 #44090

    Amos, you remind me of those deluded types that used to stand outside London Underground stations years ago trying to sell copies of the Daily Worker .They believed they were right in supporting the Soviet Union and were amazed that no one else shared their views. You, and others, have constantly claimed that the new stadium must be taken account of in assessing Wenger's tenure at AFC over the past 9 seasons ,so why are you trying now to deny this? If Wenger's had a smaller wage bill than Liverpool than that's because he chose to do so by hoarding cash and refusing to pay top wages to proven class players and instead preferred to award 40 and 50k ones to a variety of young unproven ones such as Denilison, Diaby, Bendtner,and so on and on... again I reterate that it's how a manager managers his resources and on all known evidence Ferguson with his policy of paying top dollar to players like Ronaldo and co ,while making the yioung ones work to earn their pay rises , did a better job and with just a 20m more wage bill last season than Wenger did . Ferguson finished 16 points clear of us last season . Was it really so surprising that RVP went to OT ? Wenger had a 50m higher wage bill than the rookie AVB at spuds last term ,yet only finished a point ahead of him.No wonder he celebrated that as though he had just won the league instead of finishing 4th ! Thing should be a bit easier this season regarding a top 4 finish, but as I said before if anyone can make it hard for himself then that man is Wenger. Tell me all about it in May. In the meantime I suggest that you calm down a bit because me thinks that you protest too much. Yo don't know as much as you think that you do about the financial goings on at AFC.

  55. Ron

    Jan 10, 2014, 14:48 #44089

    Hi Chris - Good stuff, though way beyond the remit of a Wengerout/in chat ha!. We re all somewhere on the autistic spectrum. Its just that thankfully most of us arent aware of it (though many are quietly aware of being within it) and have never had cause to be diagnosed.

  56. Ron

    Jan 10, 2014, 14:35 #44088

    Amos - This entire thread is about 'opinion' as is everything from a fans position in football speak. Like any conversation, there are prejudices as you say, but its largely about interpreting the information that you and Jeff have both accessed that feeds your comments. You have no more indisputably shown that your interpretation of what facts exist any more correct than he has in all honesty. His starting point is to cast doubt on the Coach's continuation in a job that pays him 7 Million pa. Yours is not to doubt him at all. You use different ways of trying to argue that youre both right. He looks to on field decisions and what hes seen of AW actions as a Coach. You look largely to off field monetary explanations to support your view that AW shd remain and that to doubt him is the choice of a fool. With respect, the tone of how you deliver your opinions is quite insulting to him as i read them. Youve as much a closed mind to his views as Jeff has to yours, so the haughtiness of your exchanges with him leaves much to be desired really. The fact is that youre both entirely only partially right as the real explanation is almost certainly some where in the middle 'greyer' area which is where the vast majority of us reside. Westie - you refer to 'closed minds' also as being the case of those who oppose you. On a message board like this, and not knowing people, to suggest that those who dont agree with you means theyve 'closed minds' and therefore of lesser intelligence than you is similarly as rude in my view.You just have a prejudiced view, tha same as the rest of us. I think it was JJB who picked me up earlier on sounding as if i had 'absolutes' to peddle in backing up my views. He was right to do so, as clearly i havent any. Neither have you or Amos, although you perhaps both like to feel you have. Basically, a bit less of 'closed minds' asserttion wouldnt go a miss. Thats what im saying. A good few of us havent done what we ve done in life by labouring with a closed mind i can assure you.

  57. Alsace Lorraine de Totteridge

    Jan 10, 2014, 14:30 #44087

    Lynch, Jetplane and others. There are still lots of people who think that AW can do no wrong, but the war of words between AMG's and AKB's has thankfully and for the time being, become an irrelevance. Forces inside the club and inside the team are influencing him, and apparently in a non threatening way, otherwise he would be fighting to exclude them. As a result we have a defence and a midfield and an attack springboarded off those. If he can be persuaded to get enough talent in that will give us the goals we need, and a reserve decent central defender, it is possible that we can fight all the way to the end. Manciti and Chelski can be beaten despite their strength in depth because at long last we have some defensive strength married to attacking talent. It can be done, and watching it unfold is magnificently exciting. If we win, it will be the Arsenal way and not with a bunch of two faced mercenaries playing for us. How I wish Fabregas and Van Persie could come back this January.

  58. Chris

    Jan 10, 2014, 14:09 #44086

    Badarse - you are describing the patterns of thought of 'psychonormal' individuals. However, a very significant proportion if individuals do not develop those same characteristics of thought because they share some neurologcial characteristics with those on the autistic spectrum (or indeed may have an ASD). This makes it harder for them to develope the flexibility you describe (although it comes with other compensations). My guess it that regular contributors to these debates are more likely to demonstrate this caetextia (context blindness) than the over all population and that would partly explain the patterns you have observed. This is not an attack or criticism - merely an observation proffered in the spirit of fostering understanding :-)

  59. Amos

    Jan 10, 2014, 14:07 #44085

    @jeff wright. "This Wenger built the stadium with his own hands tied behind his back, while battling against insidious enemies with greater resources than he had to fight with, is complete nonsense." You are absolutely right Jeff. It is complete nonsense. But it's your nonsense - a straw man argument. You're the only one to make such a claim. As for the matchday revenues from the stadium of course that's a revenue generating asset which was the whole justification for the sacrifices to make the investment which property development revenues eventually contributed to. It's not that I haven't mentioned it it's simply that you haven't even bothered to try to understand what is being said. It's all there for you if you're open to it.

  60. jeff wright

    Jan 10, 2014, 13:52 #44084

    SGB,you are obviously not aware that only Amos's views on the fiscal affairs that transpire at AFC are the correct ones. This Wenger built the stadium with his own hands tied behind his back, while battling against insidious enemies with greater resources than he had to fight with, is complete nonsense. In reality the stadium pays for itself and pours cash into the clubs coffers rather than taking it out. On top of that money was also made from the flats built on the old stadium land . Amos never mentions this though. There has been a lot more money available for Wenger to spend and money that perhaps another manager would have used to help us win those elusive trophies that are so conspicuously absent from the Emirates trophy cabinet . Of course it is only speculation that another manager could have done better than Arsene but it can't be disproved that another one might not have done so either. Wenger,along with the likes of Amos , has been in the comfort zone or twilight one ,depending on how you view it, for donkeys years . It's all become very boring and predictable and false positives being put forth to claim otherwise will not change this. Will Wenger out-wit Pep in the CL tie? Will he out-wit Pellegrini and Mourinho in the Prem ? I don't think so because I don't think that he has the players or the wit these days to do so. And I don't see why I should be forced to believe otherwise having seen no evidence to make me do that . If I'm asked will Wenger get a top 4 place again then I will say yes,because I can't see any reason for him not to do so,although he has from similar positions that we are now in sometimes made hard work in the end of doing it. Usually because he failed to sign players in January to freshen things up and injuries,loss of form ,suspensions kicked in later on the run in and during fixture congestion.

  61. Amos

    Jan 10, 2014, 13:49 #44083

    @SGRB. The resources being generated by AFC are a matter of public record and a freely available. There is enough outsider information therein not to need insider knowledge to map the generation and utilisation of those resources. You can be cynical about what might happen in the future if that's your mindset but you can also be realistic about what is happening now. You can also look at the same or similar information for those of our peers in order to understand historic, current and projected relative positions. Of course I have my own opinions and prejudices but those opinions I express are usually supported with information that is verifiable. That is like some but not like everyone else at all. If you just want to express an opinion based solely on your prejudices that's fine, in many cases it is our prejudices that make conversation interesting, but you needn't be too surprised that someone challenges it if they believe they have an informed opinion which they can support.

  62. Westlower

    Jan 10, 2014, 13:46 #44082

    @DJ, We all share your frustration waiting for the open top bus ride to come along. As Amos has been so gallantly & patiently trying to open peoples eyes and minds that if the Russian & Arab money hadn't been poured into Man C & Chelsea coffers we would most likely been comfortable winners of the the PL. Man U have shown how easily it is to be derailed with a change of circumstance. Yes, we maybe knocked out of the CL by BM but the glory is that we've put ourselves into a position where we are seeded alongside Europe's elite. If the media are to be believed, some prefer (Wigan, Portsmouth) to win Cups and take relegation on the chin. That mentality belongs in the Championship and long may you stay there whoever believes in such nonsense. Glory is relative and I'm sure ours is coming anytime soon!

  63. Amos

    Jan 10, 2014, 13:34 #44081

    @Ron. The focus of this whole issue has been on the utilisation of resources whether cash reserves or playing staff. How is it possible to consider those without at least touching on the background of financial decisions which have provided those resources. In any case you have focussed solely on the financial aspects in my post and overlooked the references to changes in player contract law and the issue of ownership impacting on decision making which have affected our operating environment. I have determined money as the primary factor (and relative to our peers it is of course) not the sole factor. Quite right to point out that we have lost games we should have won. That's not unique to us of course. Especially in cup football. Different factors play a role in such events. Decisions for and against, form, injuries or the simple bounce of the ball among them. It is a fine line between 8 years without a trophy and in such matters we could have done better with the same resources had factors which we cannot directly control been different. However it should not be ignored that we might not have had all those player resources you have celebrated over the last 9 years if, for example, we had waited for Fabregas or RvP and others to become fully developed players before attempting to recruit them. That's perhaps a benefit of a policy of recruiting world class players before they are recognised as such. Not all the policies pursued have failed.

  64. BADARSE

    Jan 10, 2014, 13:29 #44080

    Children think in straight lines, adults develop their understanding with awareness and experience. You might say they begin to think in a more flexible way.It leads to firmer and sounder judgements. However many adults get locked into a mind set. They cannot/will not adapt, refusing to amend or alter their earlier decisions, and then begin to think in a circle. The debates on this site are some of the most 'well-rounded' discussions I have witnessed.

  65. Westlower

    Jan 10, 2014, 13:26 #44079

    @Ron, I recently quoted a graph shown in the Racing Post that clearly showed that the top prizes are won by the clubs with the highest wage bills. Overachieving is the ability to smack these clubs on the nose.

  66. DJ

    Jan 10, 2014, 13:26 #44078

    Westlower: Always enjoy reading you posts because your arguments are well reasoned and true. However, you speak more as a financial analyst than a fan. Everything you state is correct Arsene has built us a new stadium and kept us on the gravy train called the Champions League. But, where is the glory? Now supporters are content with 3rd place and the financial rewards it brings instead of the reason we go to football, and hand over our hard earned cash, to see our side win trophies. I think most people will agree it will be difficult to overcome Bayern in the Cash Cup but with some investment we have a fighting chance in the Premiership and FA Cup. You have to speculate to accumulate and not to the Leeds/Portsmouth extent just within our budget. A decade without glory for a club of our size is long enough.

  67. Ron

    Jan 10, 2014, 13:23 #44077

    GH - Absolutely. AW has in many ways been his own worst enemy, but virtue of his dismissive approach to the lesser trophies. The anlaysis of his present position is about 'perception' as many things are. At best, with better planning, attitude, decision making and approach we could in my view have bagged 2 CCs or certainly 1 of them, one title (with a little inspired buying to have supported his 2008 team). Ill ignore the CL Final in 06.This would have altered greatly how fans view his last 9 years. Instead, the Clubs support has been fobbed off with the 'its bacause we cant compete financially' statement. That only explains why Wenger hasnt gone toe to toe EVERY season with the 2 mancs and Chelsea. The reality is, we havent gone toe to toe with Liverpool either. Like you, ive not once heard anyone say, we shd matched City or Chelsea or Utd. With a little more practical thinking and less 'trophy snobbery', its my view that Wenger would look far different in the history books and unless, he changes his tack, his future in the Coach role is untenable. Too many people for too long have bought the Clubs spin on the money and stadium shift for the totally barren last 9 years. Its only a partial explanation.

  68. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Jan 10, 2014, 13:13 #44076

    Amos, that those resources are being generated in order to compete with those currently finishing 1st and 2nd would be an assumption on your part - unless you have genuine insider info. Someone of a more cynical mindset may think there is another destination planned for those resources. Ultimately you're just giving opinions based on what you've seen and heard, coloured by your own biases and inclinations, like everyone else.

  69. radfordkennedy

    Jan 10, 2014, 13:12 #44075

    Mike..Good post mate and I can see your point,its just in my opinion we have a real big chance off pulling it off.but only if we get some more fire power now.I don't see the pursuit of glory as spending for spending sake,as the lady once said doing nothing is not an option.I'm not totally convinced this team will get any better than right now we must do everything we can to keep scoring and go for it with everything we've got both in money and bottle

  70. Green Hut

    Jan 10, 2014, 13:00 #44074

    Amos- With the greatest respect to the poster I didn't take the £311m figure seriously as it's clearly inaccurate, but as I said I don't see people arguing that we have had the money to consistently outdo City, Utd and Chelsea over the past 8 years. I certainly don't argue that. And plainly if we had won one title (ie achieved more than we have) we would still have achieved less than those 3 teams during that period. Not asking or expecting for a change in the football landscape, just hoping that the manager is willing to use every resource available in the pursuit of glory whenever opportunity knocks.

  71. Ron

    Jan 10, 2014, 12:58 #44073

    Guys, you know, when you boil it all down, had we have lasted a further 12 mins in Paris in the 06 CL Final and won it. Had AW have fielded a stronger team from the off v Chelsea in the CC Final of 07 and perhaps have won it and had our approach matched Bham City's in the 2011 CC Final perhaps getting us past them and winning it, i suspect that al of this somewhat tiresome interchange about what should and could or might have happened had we spent this or that would not be occuring as AW, even without a title win wouldnt have any doubters at all would he. Even had the CL Final remained a lost match, the same applies maybe? Add to this the constants of the top 4 running concurrent with the slight change of fortunes in the said matches of course. In reality, hes not been so far off changing the landscape despite the cash moguls entry into football. Where the deabte against Arsene starts is of course, why didnt he take those 2 trophies that he clearly should have done? It had nothing to do with spending as i see it, more about attitude, approach and 'philosophy' which has been AWs and the Clubs achilles heel in the main, which has in turn led to the player exodus we ve endured. Amos, your focus on the money aspects of the Clubs recent past as being the sole determining factor to suggest AW has over achieved is flawed in itself. Anyway, what does 'over achieved' mean?It might have some credence in accountancy speak, but in pure footballing terms, the player resources we have had in the last 9 years suggests that hes not done as well as he should. The resort to the comparitive cash resources to explain it away is a red herring in my view. In short, we could conceivably have done better without spending a bean more.

  72. Westlower

    Jan 10, 2014, 12:50 #44072

    @Jeff, Name me another manager, anywhere in the World, who has kept his club in the top echelons of the game while being actively involved in a new stadium build. AFC could so easily have fallen from grace during this period. Where would AFC be today if Wenger hadn't kept us in the Champions League once we were committed to building the Emirates?

  73. Amos

    Jan 10, 2014, 12:42 #44071

    @SGRB. So to break the cycle the need would be to pursue long term policies in which you can generate resources that match - or at least are much closer to - those with the resources to finish 1st and 2nd. Though of course the need to so is boring and repetitive as a narrative - and those of a romantic mindset will disagree with this. :)

  74. Mike

    Jan 10, 2014, 12:39 #44070

    Sound thread of debate from Amos - the management of the club has managed to navigate its way through a tricky period which quite easily could have gone pear shaped and sent us sliding down to the lower parts of the league table and below. The question is what now? People are crying for a striker to be signed, but I haven't seen anyone currently available better that what we have got. Spending for the sake of spending is not a good idea - planned or unplanned Ozil was money well spent. The same need to apply to our new signings - people complain about panic buys and their outcome - the same logic needs to apply now

  75. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Jan 10, 2014, 12:31 #44069

    Technically it is of course an over-achievement to finish above a team with more resources than you in the league. But there is a different problem with 4th, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 3rd etc... it's repetitive and boring as a narrative. Of course, those of a statistical mindset will disagree with this.

  76. Amos

    Jan 10, 2014, 12:29 #44068

    @jeff wright. You don't prove a claim is wrong simply by asserting it is wrong - you have to demonstrate where it's wrong. As of now I can't see that you have provided proof of anything. All you have contributed is unsupported opinion. If that's enough for you to remain wedded to your opinion then it's fair enough.

  77. jeff wright

    Jan 10, 2014, 12:18 #44067

    Amos,thanks for the advice but considering that your own claims are often proven wrong I suggest that you yourself should heed it. At the end of the day it's how the money available is spent that counts,and after 8 trophyless years I stick with my view that Wenger has not over-achieved - in fact he could - and should during that time have done a little better. Chris my comments to Amos regarding the use of our resources by Arsene also applies to your own comments. The reality is that with more resources available to him Wenger should not be getting out-gunned by Liverpool on wages - if Wenger had bought better players during the past 9 seasons he might have also won something as Liverpool did when Rafa won the CL with them. Wenger hoarding cash parsimoniously and dogmatically pursuing daft policies are being cited as being a virtue and to be admired by you and Amos. In football however history only remembers what managers won - not how prudent they were in keeping their clubs share prices up for the owners - while caning the supportrs with sky-high ticket prices - nor how many times they finished 3rd or 4th. The fact that Amos gets excited about us having finished 3rd three times in 6 years says it all really ,ignorance is indeed bliss !

  78. Amos

    Jan 10, 2014, 11:56 #44066

    @green hut. That's not really an exaggeration is it. Claiming that Wenger has made £311m profit on transfers is an exaggeration - well more distortion I suppose. The anti-Wenger argument is based on the premise that he has had more resources than he has used and had he used all the resources we would have achieved more than we had. Plainly to have achieved more we would have had to have done better than Chelsea, City and ManU over that period. The only exaggeration is the claim that spending our resources would significantly have changed the landscape of the last 10 years.

  79. Chris

    Jan 10, 2014, 11:52 #44065

    Jeff - As you're so keen on accuracy, it's worth pointing out that a couple of seasons ago we had the FIFTH highest wage bill (behind Liverpool, who's wage bill nudged just above us that season, as well as Chelsea and the two Mancs), so that's an extra over-achievement. And of course, if we had spent more on transfers, as these other clubs did, we'd have had less to spend on wages so that needs to be borne in mind too. The over-achievement has been considerable, as Sporting Intelligence's report demonstrates.

  80. Amos

    Jan 10, 2014, 11:45 #44064

    @jeff wright. I think you'll find that Shinawatra was spending big on both wages and transfers at City in 2007 brining them to financial disaster which is why Mansour was able to bale them out. At the same time Liverpool under Benitez was spending big on wages. You also need to understand our own financial position back in 2007 which I've alluded to in another post. But even if you're only partially right we've still finished 3rd twice in the last 5 seasons hence we've tended to at least meet and even exceed expectations. Genuinely I don't wish to appear rude to you Jeff. I can see that your passionate enough about your views but you're arguing mainly from a position of ignorance. There's plenty of information freely available out there and you can check the information you use before you post if you wish to do so.

  81. Green Hut

    Jan 10, 2014, 11:34 #44063

    Amos- Presuming you're referring to the whole trophyless period rather than one specific year within it (and admitting I haven't read every single post on here), I can't recall anyone putting forward 'the financial argument that we have had the funds to have done better than City, Chelsea and ManU have'. That is exaggerating the position of many with legitimate concerns in an attempt to make them appear silly and misguided.

  82. Amos

    Jan 10, 2014, 11:31 #44062

    The really important juncture(s) is/are behind us Ron. The point in 2003 in which building of the Emirates was halted as we'd run out of funds to complete it delaying the opening for a year. The need to refinance a stadium which cost a reported £400m to build with long term loans of £260m - and therefore called for the other £140m to come out of the resources we had to generate ourselves. That must have been an important juncture! The property crash, just after our first season at the Emirates in which we made almost no profit at all due to the re-financing costs, curtailing cash flow at a time when the takeover of already profligate City by Mansour coincided with the impact of the then recent changes in player contract law which made it much easier for the benefactor clubs to buy the players they wanted. The resolution of ownership issues kicked up by Dein in 2006 and consequent boardroom disharmony solved only when Kroenke took sole control in 2011. That was also an important juncture. As important as it may be the decisions going forward are pretty straightforward by comparison. By you're right that this is an immensely interesting club and these fascinating times.

  83. Jeff wright

    Jan 10, 2014, 11:14 #44061

    Amos, I must just point out another false positive that you keep posting,we have as you say rightly point out finished third 3 times in the last 6 years, but we had the 3rd largest wage bill on the first occasion , so using your own criteria that was just just par for the course non? . City were not on the radar in 2007-08 season. In fact they did not even qualify for the CL until 2011 . As I recall it the spuds beat them on one occasion at Poundlands in a 4th place last game decider. So in reality ,reality not being something of course that you are too familiar with, we have not punched above our weight 3 times in the Prem during the last 6 years as you keep claiming that we have . Just the 2 times actually - and the last time was when RVP was with us , and scoring when he wanted. This also contradicts another false positive of yours that we did better last season without him when in reality we only just managed to finish 4th on the last day of the season by hanging on grimly to a 1-0 lead at Newcattle. Westie, with all due respect to Giroud it's a bit far fetched to compare him with RVP - Oliver's limitations are too obvious - you can't make a silk purse out of a pig's ear. Have a nice day now ya all .

  84. radfordkennedy

    Jan 10, 2014, 11:08 #44060

    Ron..quite agree mate I'm bored with all matters fiscal,shall we get the football out...incidently I'm considering contacting MI5 to see if there are any ladies or gentlemen still alive who worked on the ULTRA or ENIGMA codes at Bletchley Park to see if they can help me crack the verification code on this site!!

  85. Ron

    Jan 10, 2014, 11:00 #44059

    Amos - ill say one thing matey, i cant think of a Club thats more interesting than ours, in all of its aspects, off pitch and on it. I agree with you in that now is a really important juncture for those at the top, inc Arsene, to get the decisions right going forward. If pushed, it wdt surprise me at all if AW decided to work contract free from this Summer. Ive mentioned before that its maybe the case that his successor is already in place and known to all who matter. Its the Arsenal way after all. Our futile utterances on any of it are all wildly speculative. Its a good job they are, but good fun speculating isnt it!

  86. Amos

    Jan 10, 2014, 10:48 #44058

    Ron - I don't think it's true to say that discernible conclusions haven't been reached - they simply haven't been accepted. Indeed verifiable and independent conclusions have made. If they hadn't Wenger would have gone long ago. Those mainly opposed to Wenger find it hard to accept them or at least inconvenient for their wishes. It is their discontent which is grounded in the financial argument that we have had the funds to have done better than City, Chelsea and ManU have. In truth there seems little point re-examining Wengers previous performance or use of resources and asking whether it justifies his removal now as those that control or have the real power to influence have discernibly concluded that it doesn't. The anti-Wenger argument is academic and to a large extent pointless. However, there may be a debate as to whether the unique skill set that Wenger has which has served the club so well, even in this barren spell, is needed now - at least to the same extent. With the club on a sound financial footing with more professional ownership and commercial executives on board than at anytime in the past a major part of the job could be seen as more of a Head Coach than it has been through this period of change. It must surely move in that direction in the future. Of course that's a debate in which a conclusion can really only be drawn once it has happened.

  87. Ron

    Jan 10, 2014, 9:57 #44057

    JJB - Hi. I work at home in the main these days. We re not so far apart re the boss as you say. Lots of respect for the guy. How can anyone not give it? Theres lots about football thats made me turn away from it too like your goodself. PS These debates on going here on net spends and whats not spent,what has been,what should be and who got most value from sell on's etc etc leave me cold though If the number crunchers at the Club read this stuff, they must split their sides.I shall leave this and let the guys carry on ripping each other, with no discernable conclusions to be reached seemingly.

  88. BADARSE

    Jan 10, 2014, 9:57 #44056

    Good morning peeps, especially JJB. Am glad you don't post so often as my dodgy knee won't take too much stress-I have just knelt down in homage to your post from last night, and it's damn difficult getting back up again. You spoke roughly with my words, it was an absolute pleasure to read it, I sensed so much in it, well done Gooner, you quite clearly earn that accolade. I would go on to say this. Life is very convoluted and in every simple action, decision, movement, the complexities and ramifications sometimes visit an individual with an avalanche of information. People have to reduce, otherwise our brains would explode. However with that a person often decides on a pathway and follows it, irrespective of other factors, or new information. We hunker down and begin to lob grenades at someone hunkered down across the imagined divide, they lob back. A human trait, and it powers this site. I have experienced these behavioural problems all my life and gave up trying to explain my logic for others' benefits long ago. We generally refuse to alter though, and I am no different, so the old me sometimes comes into play, I reserve that right. Some just love the hunt, and conflict debating opposing views brings, I find it a little tiresome. Thanks for your post pal, it did me good.

  89. Amos

    Jan 10, 2014, 9:09 #44055

    @Green Hut. Ah I see. So when you said the independent SI report didn't make that conclusion what you really meant was that they did make that conclusion but as it ran counter to your view you didn't agree with it. That's fair enough even if your original post was misleading. The cash would only gather dust if it did sit there unused but of course what really happens is that it is constantly used and replaced. Hence we've spent as much cash in the last 5 transfer windows as in the previous 16 combined but have been able to replenish our reserves through good management. If there were no cash the dust would just gather on the unused cash free shelves. In the meantime we've loaned the tin of silver polish to the ladies team but as we've won a major trophy in each of the last 9 successive historical decades and there's plenty of time in the present one to continue that record we'll probably be able to give it another outing in time.

  90. Green Hut

    Jan 10, 2014, 8:36 #44054

    Amos- Yes thanks for pointing that out but I was disagreeing with their use of the word available in their conclusion, not disputing the fact that they used it. I believe that 'gathering dust' is a reasonable way to describe cash that has been sitting there for 'some years' waiting for the elusive 'value' to show up, but I would agree that Wenger has been remarkably productive in some areas. We haven't had to spend a penny on silver polish for 8 years.

  91. Westlower

    Jan 10, 2014, 8:06 #44053

    @Jeff Wright, Your comparison that RVP is a Derby winner, while Giroud is a handicapper. It's worth remembering that RVP was only a promising, troublesome Maiden when purchased by AW. It was only with skill,patience & understanding that the trainer improved RVP through the grades to become Derby class. A feat he also achieved with Fabregas, Vieira, Cole, Henry, Anelka, etc. Today, Wilshere, Ramsey, Walcott, Ox, Gibbs, Koscielny, Flamini, Diaby, Gnabry, Zelalem, Szczesny are the latest Group class players benefiting from Wenger's expertise. How much is that lot worth in the current transfer market?

  92. Amos

    Jan 10, 2014, 7:15 #44052

    @Green Hut. The conclusions of the Sporting Intelligence report inculde, and I quote directly from it: "Wenger has produced teams that have either out-performed expectation on the pitch given the resources AVAILABLE to him off it, or at least met those expectations." It also doesn't conclude that the club has ten of millions gathering dust it concludes that it has tens of millions to spend when they can find the value that they want. That of course is a strength not a weakness. It would only be a weakness if they didn't have any money to spend. The notorious reluctance to spend it suggests was rooted in pragmatic reasons. Naturally there're criticisms too but the broad and specific conclusions are that Wenger has been remarkably productive for AFC.

  93. Green Hut

    Jan 10, 2014, 1:20 #44051

    Amos- The Sporting Intelligence report didn't conclude that Wenger makes more of the resources that he has available, they concluded that he makes more of the resources that he spends. What they also concluded was that he has tens of millions in the bank gathering dust and that he is 'notoriously reluctant to spend' so as ever you can take from it what you want.

  94. jeff wright

    Jan 10, 2014, 0:28 #44050

    Amos , my final word on thee subject yaaaawwwwwwnnnn... RG, I was just giving my opinion based on what I have read and heard and I don't have access to all of the insider info that Amos has .Even though it all contradicts all known facts and flies in the face of logic. Goodnight all.

  95. Amos

    Jan 10, 2014, 0:05 #44049

    @greg71. What do you mean do I accept it? If I didn't I just wouldn't go to the games or watch their matches. In short I wouldn't be a supporter. As it happens though I think 4th is less acceptable than 3rd, 2nd or 1st but more acceptable than 5th, 6th or 7th.

  96. Greg71

    Jan 09, 2014, 23:15 #44048

    @Amos Whilst assuming you haven,t a crystal ball,would this position be acceptable to you from a footballing perspective? Back in the financial field,it looks like the Arsenal ladies are feeling the pinch as two more players leave for Chelsea.

  97. Amos

    Jan 09, 2014, 22:52 #44047

    @jeff wright. You don't understand your own point. You claimed that Wenger had made a profit of £311m on player transfers. That's complete and utter nonsense. It's a matter of record, even if you are only relying on net transfer spend figures, that he has spent more on transfers than he has received. There really is no argument but I'll accept that it is your wish to remain blind to the facts. As for 4th financially I'll repeat that we have finished 3rd in 3 of the last 6 seasons. As regards the Ozil deal being foisted on Wenger by Gazidis and Kroenke. The information confirmed by all sides is that the deal was done solely and privately in conversations between Wenger and Ozil. Ozil confirmed that Wenger workled very hard to persuade him to come to Arsenal. The deal was finalised at Wenger's home. All this information is publicly available and verifiably confirmed first hand by the participants. If, as you say, Wenger did not want to do the deal he alone had the power not to make it happen irrespective of what Gazidis or Kroenke may have wanted. So conspiracy theory debunked - but you can always turn a blind eye to the evidence if it's uncomfortable.

  98. GoonerRon

    Jan 09, 2014, 22:46 #44046

    @ Jeff - first you said Ozil wasn't Wenger's signing and now you're saying Wenger did in fact want him but hadn't planned it? And as for all of your stuff about what Perez may have done - let's face it - you are just speculating to support your argument against Wenger.

  99. jeff wright

    Jan 09, 2014, 22:34 #44045

    Amos ,you are the one desperately trying to claw your way out of a hole that you fell in and not me. If you believe that Wenger has not made a profit on selling top players going way back to the first big one,le sulk to Madrid for 20m then that's what you believe,or want to believe. So carry on regardless as with other debates this one has become tiresome . You are right though about our financial position being 4th place - United though last season showed that it is possible to finish ahead of the petrol fuelled City and chavs - but it takes a bit of guile and luck to do it. As the master said to grasshopper ,if man have oil wells it much better than man who have block of flats. Having three top strikers helps as well !

  100. Amos

    Jan 09, 2014, 22:22 #44044

    @JJB. That's a good and reasoned post. I also find that many broadly supportive or understanding of Wenger are nowhere near as virulent in their support as those against him are in their opposition. Most understand and expect him to make mistakes just as well do even if we feel he makes fewer than most. He's human with all the normal quirks, foibles and idiosyncrasies you'd expect a human to have. They are not apologists for him because they see little to apologise for. It seems that those most angry with him do expect him to have more messianic properties. To get every decision right. To have superhuman predictive powers. Maybe I'm over stretching it a little but their anger seems to be rooted in the same sort of disappointment that children might feel when they learn that Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy aren't real.

  101. jeff wright

    Jan 09, 2014, 22:13 #44043

    Gr, no I'm not saying that Wenger did not want Ozil but that it was not as the ebullient Amos claims a planned signing by Wenger - who I suspect had not even considered signing Ozil. Perez was cunning though and knew how much Stan was prepared to spend so he made him an offer that that due to circumstances he Stan couldn't refuse. Obviously with Ancelotti wanting shut of Ozil it was in the best interests of Perez to sell him . Senor Perez probably doesn't see us as being a rival to his own CL ambitions anyway against that of City and Chelsea and Bayern - so all in all with Ozil obviously not wanting to move to a Europa League side and needing playing time with the World Cup looming a move to AFC looked like the best option for him. If spuds had made the CL last season then he would have gone to them as a make-weight in the Bale move- despite what was claimed Bale would still have left to join Real Madrid when they came calling. There is no sentimentality involved in football where agents and players are concerned despite all of the kissing badges malarkey . Ozil got a rollicking at United when he ignored our supporters and giving his shirt to Jose after the chavs had beat us 2-0 was not a great idea either. I'm expecting us to have problems with the little man in the future if we fail towin anything - as we have had with others who expect more than just a top 4 finish every season.

  102. Amos

    Jan 09, 2014, 22:11 #44042

    @Greg71. That question has already been answered within the financial banter. Based on financial capacity only the finishing position for Arsenal in the season 13/14 will be 4th.

  103. Gare K

    Jan 09, 2014, 21:48 #44041

    Whilst we have a chance of winning the title, my own view is that we will come up short because contrary to popular belief, I’m not convinced the squad is as strong as many make it out to be and is a little bit unbalanced. The injuries we have had all season have shown no signs of easing and my feeling is that more injuries will happen when we least suspect i.e. Walcott and especially as quite a few players are being overused; Giroud possibly? I’m of the opinion too that it’s Man City’s title to lose. Their squad is strong, their ability to outscore their opponents by a big margin at some games is frightening as we found out ourselves recently, that fragile away form is gradually improving but what could let them down is the rarity they have in keeping clean sheets (something that we are very good at doing) if they are not scoring 4, 5 or even 6 in a game. And Chelsea under Mourinho second time round are gradually looking the real deal too but like City they too are not immune to catastrophes i.e. Stoke away. Another thing that could go against us is the lack of ‘winners’ in our squad. Most of our squad don’t know what it’s like to win a trophy let alone a league title but the squads at Man City & Chelsea are full of them. And the (at times) inability to beat a ‘big ‘team is still a noose that one day has to be removed. And that’s done by good coaching and tactics not an open chequebook so those who like to use ‘points per spend’ or whatever trivial stat should think of something else less trivial. In my view, Wenger still needs to strengthen at the back and up front, which is the common consensus but I too like a few am sceptical he will do so. My view is that he’ll wait for the walking wounded to return (I’ve said before and I’ll say it again, he’s still waiting for Diaby). And now he won’t be able to play the ‘we have no money’ card. That ship sailed last summer when Gazidis boasted of our ‘escalation in financial firepower’. But one thing I can’t see Wenger pulling off is a ‘vanity’ transfer like Man City did with Rodney Marsh in 1972 and Newcastle did with Tino Asprilla in 1996; signing players that both clubs didn’t need but just to show off to rivals. Neither club needed any of those players and their title challenges collapsed as they both upset the balance of both teams. I certainly can’t see that happening with us. Interesting times lie ahead.

  104. JJB

    Jan 09, 2014, 21:40 #44040

    Ron - Clearly you are a man who likes to offer his opinion, its hard to find any recent article on this site, that isn't dominated by yourself and a few other contributors, they generally make well written an interesting reading. I would love to have the time in my day to invest the amount of time you clearly do in your thoughts regarding all things Arsenal, alas life and work get in the way, so I guess you could call me a voyeour! I have to admit I do not wholly understand the point you are trying to make in your reply, I don't get the description of these supposed Arsenal fan's that have "blind faith" in AW? In all the endless hours of pre & post match pub talk this season, I have not encountered one gooner that has such notions of the manager, other than those under the age of 10 who perhaps can be forgiven for such naivety. You say that "wenger apologists have an arrognace about them", that in itself I find distasteful, who are these wenger apologists? what is a Wenger apologist? I would counter the opposite, I find the many of the anti wenger comments to be laced with bile and venom, I get angry with the man but I wont resort to the name calling that so many on here seem comfortable with, and to your point about those that retort with "go back down the lane", I personally choose to ignore those idiots that cant enter into the debate, but to suggest it is weighted on one side is naive at best. I disagree with lynch's view, because I do not understand the compunction to constantly look for fault with the manager whilst the team are performing so well, lets not forget that the only real thing that matters in football is the results, and so far this season it baffles me that the "wenger is a second rate, busted flush" line can be espoused when looking at where we are. Does that mean, that I am going to ignore the previous 8 seasons? Of course not, perhaps there are those that do, but again I dont know any, I know plenty of fans who have very mixed feelings but not the absolutes you reference......On this site more than any other, the idea that fans still support the manager is seen as moronic and is usually followed with the tiresome "AKB" tag....I realise that you have not trotted this out, but I am talking generally, perhaps you disagree? If at the end of this season we are yet again empty handed, then I would be in absolute agreement that his time is up, but I will not be doing him such disservice by resorting to the level of insults that those who want him gone, seem too ready to do, I firmly believe the man has earned the right to be carried out on his shield, not leave with a sword in his back., again I appreciate this has not been your line, but you have chose to stand guard on behalf of lynch in this instance. When I see comments, such as those left by lynch, I do feel the need to respond, I understand his point....but his language and disdain of the manger, I do not like at all, does that make me a "wenger apologist"?. I think any Arsenal fan with a good knowledge of football, can see that no other club of our stature in England has moved stadium without a sugar daddy, whilst managing to maintain a consistent level of performance, its a pretty unique situation that requires far more thought than those who seem desperate to divide the fanbase into two tiers of "AKB and AMG"...But again, this in itself does not fully excuse the last barren 8 years, I believe that change could be a good thing, but I will happily admit that I would love for AW to redeem himself in some way, perhaps I am a sentimental fool but I respect the man because I love the purity of football, I find the tribal nature of this sport pretty repugnant at times. Fair play for laying down your thoughts as to his future, I'm not a million miles away from you there in your thoughts and you at least speak with a level of reverence and respect. Personally, I dont think every fan has to put his cards down on the table as to whether they are anti or pro.....to borrow a well used quote..."I got some stuff im liberal about, and some stuff im conservative about"...I dont deal in absolutes, it delineates the debate in my opinion and shows a lack of understanding for the complexity of the situation of the club manager. However, you will excuse me if I don't always chose to ignore those that choose a different type of rhetoric like lynch, Im not prepared to let that slide without recourse, that doesn't mean I think his substance is wrong, that's not my point, but I don't think the means is justified here.

  105. GoonerRon

    Jan 09, 2014, 21:32 #44039

    @ Jeff Wright - whilst Wenger clearly didn't want RVP to go I do believe that the decision to sell him was unanimous between him and board considering the player's wish to leave and the length left on his contract. And you say Perez hawked Ozil - perhaps he did, as that is I'd imagine how a lot of transfers materialise - but again I repeat do you really think Wenger said 'I don't want him' then Kroenke and Gazidis bought him anyway? Not a chance.

  106. jeff wright

    Jan 09, 2014, 21:13 #44038

    Greg71, my guess is that 87 points will win the league and that City are the side most likely to get them.

  107. Ron

    Jan 09, 2014, 21:06 #44037

    Westie - A bit more Hendrix on Friday night mate. BBC 4 10 pm. The music nights on Fridays are good. Do you see it some times?

  108. jeff wright

    Jan 09, 2014, 21:02 #44036

    GR, well they went over Wenger's head when they sold RVP !Wenger said big clubs don't sell their best players remember when Barca came in for the player that Wenger had built his team around Fabregas. In the end though Wenger had to accept that RVP was a goner rather than a gooner and make do with Giroud instead . This is rather like a top racehorse trainer having a Derby winner taken off him and replaced with an handicapper . We will have to wait until Wenger's memoirs come out to learn exactly what hisa views were on the selling of his best players and the dismissal of his mentor DD - Wenger's never won anything since DD was got shut of by Danny over Dan's own secret share sales to test the water regarding the value of them that he entrusted Dein to carry out. A strange one that considering that Dan later sold out to Stan, but as they say money talks. Wenger obviously would have been consulted once Perez contacted us to hawk Ozil . I suspect a touch of the old piques were involved also with Levy having ruffled Senor Perez's feathers again with his usual macho man act regarding Bale leaving,a'la Modric before. I just can't see that Ozil would have been a priority for Wenger and if the bar codes had accepted his 10m (that's a Wenger signing)bid for that French midfield player then there would have been no other signings.

  109. Westlower

    Jan 09, 2014, 20:40 #44035

    LOST: Ron's faith, has anybody seen it? @Greg71, Keep a lookout for an open top bus making it's way to Islington Town Hall in May.

  110. GoonerRon

    Jan 09, 2014, 20:30 #44034

    @ Jeff Wright - so Wenger, who is often cited as having complete and utter control over everything, was happy for Kroenke and Gazidis to go over his head and purchase Ozil? Doesn't make much sense to me. Neither does the supposedly profit-obsessed owner and CEO, who clearly have utmost faith in the manager, going over Wenger's head and decimating our transfer record by the best part of £30m just to appease the fans.

  111. Greg71

    Jan 09, 2014, 20:18 #44033

    Based on all the financial banter can you experts tell me based on all the financial strategies where is the projected final league position for ARSENAL FOOTBALL CLUB in season 13/14 ?

  112. jeff wright

    Jan 09, 2014, 20:06 #44032

    Amos, I should obviously have said overall resources rather than stadium profits, one thing is for sure though Stan doesn't pay the wage bill out of his own pocket. The facts are though that the club has made money from selling players and not reinvested it in buying new ones . It looks like £31m was spent last summer which is well short of the claims that were being put out regarding what was supposed to have been available. Wenger's said that Suarez was the player that he dreamed of signing and he is still dreaming of signing him. I stick with my my view that Ozil was a panic buy and not what was on Wenger's radar it was a very late signing following on a bad result that hhad the booes ringing out again and the calls for the Stan to spend some ,well you know what. Stan could afford to spend the 42m with so much hoarded cash in the club's accounts . Ozil has pushed the boat out further though regarding the already sizeable wage bill so i will be interesting to see if ,in view of us being 'top of the league' and in the KO stages of the CL if any big wage signing is made . The fact that Wenger is talking up Bendy though suggests that this is unlikely. If we were struggling to get our usual 4th or occasional 3rd league place then it might be a very different story because as I have said before Stan and Wenger react to events rather than try to make them happen. It's steady as she goes skipper, land ahoy! Icebergs ? What Icebergs aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!

  113. Ron

    Jan 09, 2014, 20:02 #44031

    Ha Ha Westie - Oooh mate, the older amongst us dont monopolise the wisdom, its a bit of a myth that. I always respect your opinion though Westie and it is just opinions as you rightly say and dare i say too, its gut feeling, what i say to a certain degree. I just see this team as pretty much as its been for the last 2-3 years really.The stats v the same teams we ve played bear this out. Its better here and there granted and there seems more resolve amongst certain players too. I just cant see any prospect of team though that will endure and perhaps dominate for a year or 3. I sincerely hope im wrong though and i also hope Arsene pushes my opinion sraight back down my throat. If it happens, ill say thank you, thank you, thank you Arsene, forgive me for my gross error of judgement and my faith, once so powerful has returned. All good stuff isn't it!

  114. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Jan 09, 2014, 19:44 #44030

    More specific, Amos. Are you saying: AFC spend more than people think / they don't have as much as people think to spend; some powder should always be kept dry for the future; speculating to e.g. try and win the title this season would be wrong as it may harm our ability to win the title in future seasons.

  115. Amos

    Jan 09, 2014, 19:34 #44029

    @SGRB. Most definitely not a semantic issue at all. It's much more forensic, though quite simple at the same time, but the message here is very much about the money being spent on the playing squad and the ability to retain that investment capacity on an ongoing basis.

  116. Amos

    Jan 09, 2014, 19:24 #44028

    @jeff wright. Despite giving you plenty of opportunity to better inform your own opinion Jeff you're still missing it. The first rule of holes - when you find yourself in one stop digging! No Wenger has not made more from player sales than he has spent on player purchases to date.

  117. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Jan 09, 2014, 19:23 #44027

    Amos, specifically I was asking for your message from the info you've given here on transfer workings. It looks to me like, in part at least, it's an issue of semantics. Rather than 'money made from selling players' you wish people to say 'profit after discharging liabilities from selling players'.

  118. Amos

    Jan 09, 2014, 19:14 #44026

    @jeff wright. Whether Wenger is making the most of the resources he has or not can, and will always, be subjective opinion. At least up to a point. Arsenal Supporters Trust commissioned an independent report by Sporting Intelligence which concluded that he was making more of the resources he has had than any of his peers. Whether you accept that or not it doesn't help your own credibility if you're quoting figures which clearly show you don't have any real grasp of the criticism you're offering. As for wages/transfer fees, Arsenal has had the 4th highest player budgets for some time. Only City, Chelsea and ManU spend more. In the last 6 seasons we have finished 3rd as often as we have finished 4th. Worth also bearing in mind that the distance between our player budgets and that of City and Chelsea is much, much wider than the gap between us and Spurs. @SGRB. The conclusion we should draw is that we should take the trouble to ask whether our prejudices are supported by the facts or not. There's a whole wealth of information freely available. If you have any genuine interest in your club then taking a little trouble to separate the fact from the fiction will serve you and the club you support well. Doesn't stop anyone wanting Wenger out but at least you can argue for his removal from a more informed perspective.

  119. jeff wright

    Jan 09, 2014, 19:13 #44025

    Amos ,the proof is in the pudding the money is in the bank . Wenger has made more from selling players at AFC than he has on buying them during his time . Dragging wages paid from gate receipts and CL TV cash into it will not change that simple fact .

  120. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jan 09, 2014, 19:03 #44024

    jjetplane, see what you've went and done? you've started him off again, Here we go Here we go.

  121. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Jan 09, 2014, 18:54 #44023

    So what conclusion are we to draw, Amos? That AFC spends as much as it can whilst remaining a viable business, and doesn't make much from selling players?

  122. jeff wright

    Jan 09, 2014, 18:51 #44022

    Amos, it's not just about how much money Wenger has to spend but if he is making the most of what he does spend. You say that he is,others disagree with that. All sorts of claims can be made regarding figures that are bandied about ,some outdated by the time they appear ,but looking at the overall wage bill at the club compared with sides below us in the pecking order it is obvious that we should be doing better than just finishing a point ahead of Tottenham who had a wage bill 60m less than our one last season. You claims of a well run outfit maximizing financial resources better pound for pound than anyone else look rather far-fetched . It remains to be seen what transpires in the second half of this season 0f course ,but previous seasons can't be used to claim that Wenger has over-achieved - when he's actually often just scraped into 4th place ahead of managers with less resources.

  123. Amos

    Jan 09, 2014, 18:41 #44021

    @jeff wright. The figure of £311m profit from transfers that you quoted is absurdly incorrect whether over Wengers entire tenure or not. It is so far removed from the reality that I'm mildly embarrassed for you. Genuinely if you've been unable to follow the transfer spend issue closely enough to see immediately that such a claim is completely ridiculous then you should avoid falling into the trap of pretending you have any real knowledge of it.

  124. jeff wright

    Jan 09, 2014, 18:31 #44020

    Westie, your views are based on optimism and not fact. The stats showt hat we are doing no better than last season when we finished 4th behind both City and Chelsea . We will need to finish ahead of both to win the league and to improve on our CL prospects of last season we must beat BM over 2 legs. Or do you believe that another FAC win is on the cards ? Realistically I think that we have more chance of winning the old cup than we do the other two comps .

  125. Amos

    Jan 09, 2014, 18:31 #44019

    @jeff wright. Your idea that our financial dealings are NOT governed by our accounts or that financial accounts do not play any role in any self financing business is what is deluded. Wages are not governed by what is available after deductions from stadium profits and Arsenals accounts do not show anything of the sort. We spend more on wages (approx 60% of total revenues)than we receive in matchday revenue alone. There most definitely is a correlation between wages and transfer fees paid. Like others the club has a player budget. That budget is made up of the contractual wages and the fees paid amortised over the period of the contract. Hence the more you spend on wages the less you have available to spend on transfer fees and vice versa. As Sporting Intelligence (and others)has shown that there is a greater relationship between success and wage spend than success and transfer spend inhibiting the ability to pay wages by excessive transfer spending can be counter productive. As for the 3% rise in ticket prices it will probably only help offset rises in energy and other non player costs. In terms of total revenues it is not a hugely significant amount. @SGRB. Amortising costs over the contract is of no particular benefit to a club like Arsenal. As I said they are forward liabilities set against future profits so current spending has to be such that there remains a realistic prospect of forward liabilities being met. Headline figures are not of value in indicating how much a club is truly investing in its playing squad. They are misleading in fact.

  126. jeff wright

    Jan 09, 2014, 18:16 #44018

    Amos,I quoted a figure based on Wenger's entire tenure at AFC ,as with any source ,including your own ,we are all dependent on these figures being accurate. My point anyway was about the amount spent in the last window taking account of the sale of Gervinho and the off-loading of some other players from our wage bill. You have gone off on another of your tangents that end as usual in you posting statistics to try and prove your discredited views like a drunken man uses lampposts to lean on for support when trying to make his way home after a night on the sauce.

  127. Westlower

    Jan 09, 2014, 17:52 #44017

    @Ron, The fundamental difference between us is that I reckon the current team is far better than you rate them. There is no right or wrong answer, just a difference of opinion. Your judgement and that of other doubters is based on repeats of recent seasons. The World doesn't stand still for long and a team will either improve or regress. I don't detect any tangible signs of regression. I remain convinced this team will get better as the remainder of the season unfolds, which is my definition of fruition. Get back to me if I'm proved wrong. I'm surprised you regard a 64 year past his sell by. He's still a spring chicken from where I'm looking from. I truly believe in the adage: You can't know as much as me and still be young!

  128. Ron

    Jan 09, 2014, 17:20 #44016

    Westie - There are as many with blind faith as there are blind anti AW types as you well know. Top 4 and thrashing each year in the CL by the first top side we meet isnt total failure and ive never subscribed to the view that it is. Its isnt success either, its limited success and only then if you happen to agree with ragged also rans being classed as 'Champions' which i never have and thus my recognition of that CL is very lossely framed. For a Club that supposedly aspires to be a top Club its really not much to keep trotting out 'top 4 is great'. Its actually quite boring in my view as the outcome of his CL visits is like night following day. Liverpool wouldnt class it as success either,they would see it as a stepping stone but Spurs perhaps and Everton would, at this stage in their development. I doubt either of them would still crow about it though after 16 years, with one Final and 15 poor shows clocked up (well, the Spuds might admittedly, but a genuine top Club wdt!). This so called success is a worn out old excuse and Arsenal need to reach for a bar that a man of 65 cant do in my view. It now needs a new energy, new impetus and a new hunger and im not of the view Wenger after nearly a decade in the comfort zone can up his game, in fact hes still rather rooted in the 90s and early noughties, both with his coaching and his transfer policy.Im not of the view that this sqaud is that strong. The best teams are finding it out and your oft repeated mantra of 'it matters not where the points come from' is a convenient old cliche. Yes, it might well win a title, but the inability to beat top teams consistently, wont create a Club who can consistently challenge for the CL or the title. The Club has to change its culture at the top with investment habits as they now say they can and they need a new vibrant Coach in my respectful view. AW is tactically lacking and has been for years. Tactics and good defending win CL s. You mention 'fruition'. When does that point materialise? Now, next Season, 3 seasons hence? 5 years? Im sorry but jam tomorrow doesnt hack it now and it hasnt for at least the last 2 seasons. The books are healthy and the coaching needs similar health. A top Clubs measure now is winning, the days of going years not winning for a top club have gone, such are the changes in the game. It was OK when we were young fans, but now the gulf between the top 2-3 clubs and the rest is massive and its not a particularly strong league (SKY says it is, i disagree, its just a well hyped league) and as such we should be winning titles ALMOST as much as the cash rich clubs with our resouces. The coaching is preventing it.Big money purchases does not on its own win the top prizes. Ask Madrid. This is why beating the Clubs in the top mini league of the PL is vital. Its also a sign of a clubs virility when these teams are despatched often. To say 'we dont need to beat them' is a sign of accepting mediocrity. New coaches? Another year of the same by Martinez puts him in the frame for me. Everton are the team of the season so far for me. Its a risk, but not a Moyesesque one. RM has a personality. The bulged eyed, depressing Glaswegian one doesnt. Arsenal dont have a Club full of old dinosaurs plotting against a new coach from within as Manure do either. From abroad, Ancellotti would have done well at Arsenal, but we wont get him unless Madrid sack him. Much of the reluctance to embrace a change of coach at Arsenal is borne of fear, not reason in my opinion. A large part of Arsenals support is now older fans and its their fear that pervasive for the moment. Wenger is the beneficiary. Hes don emuch for football and Arsenal, but hes had a lot of latitude now and in my view should go, even if he wins the title this time. PS Listen to the shrieks now of 'Martinez got Wigan relegated; bla, bla.

  129. BADARSE

    Jan 09, 2014, 17:00 #44015

    jjetplane two big concerts fella. Nice! Give me your take on my poser the other day regarding the Neil Young Carnegie Hall interruption when the audience were doing the usual modern thing and he stopped playing..@ Ron there is some middle ground between 'hang Arsene Wenger', and the 'apologists', as you describe them. Of course people weigh the circumstances, though I suspect the accuracy of many scales that are used, then decide he should 'stay' or 'go'. I listened to reasons which opposed mine in demanding his resignation. I understood, though couldn't agree with the conclusions. I stopped discussing because it seemed pointless. However, although some with opposing views are kind of narrow in their reasoning many are very astute, and quite sensible in their judgements. I still don't agree with them on this point, but do respect them. Why with someone like you I have a good repartee despite that fundamental difference. I always try, (it helps me), to imagine the chat being in a hall/pub. A discussion would continue to move, here we have people on a carousel. I'd rather talk of something like the recent televised Winwood/Clapton concert. It was astonishing- musical masters!

  130. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Jan 09, 2014, 16:21 #44014

    So there are these liabilities to discharge. But amortising the transfer fee over the length of contract is to a club's benefit, no? So it balances out, in that respect. So headline figures have value as indicators, do they not?

  131. Bard

    Jan 09, 2014, 16:07 #44013

    Its crucial to these debates to get clear the backdrop clear. Previously we've had to endure selling our best players, often to our rivals in order to manage the finances. It's been painful as a fan but you can understand the reasoning. this season it's all changed. We're led to believe we can now mix it with the best. So here we are top of the league with 18 games to go light a top striker and maybe one other and we're being told, either no ones available or Barry will be back in 3 weeks to propel us to our first piece of silverware in 8 years. Roughly translated that means we're not actually serious about trying to win anything. I will wager that at the end of the season Wenger will trot out all the old rubbish about how we was robbed rather than holding his hand up and telling us he messed it up. Oh yes and then we can look forward to another transfer window of bluff and bull**** + of course an increase in the season ticket prices.

  132. jeff wright

    Jan 09, 2014, 15:54 #44012

    Amos, football is, as someone once said, a funny old game. Your attempts to make our financial dealings appear purely pragmatic as though they are governed purely by an accounts type of mentality is rather deluded. Wages are governed by the amount of money of money that is available after other deductions have been made from the stadium profits . The club's accounts show this and it was Diamond Danny's plan that the new stadium would generate more cash that would enable us to pay big wages and buy top players. The 3% rise in ticket prices will help top off-set pay rises and Ozil's wages - those are said to be 150k a week. Of course Wenger has off-loaded some players as I said before so that will also help to keep things ticking over. Wages are not a problem as long as they are kept overall within the amount that Stan and Ivan are prepared to pay . There is no correlation between wages and the amount paid or made from buying and selling of players . Other than beingf able to afford to pay the wages of players signed,or getting some mug to pay the 50k a week that Wenger awarded to Bendy . That one though is a lost cause and that's why we still have him with usa ,instead of another better striker who would cost more in wages and Ivan would still be paying 50k a week to Bendy. Let's see now if any big earners are signed in this window,or if anyone at all is come to that. Cheers.

  133. John Gooner

    Jan 09, 2014, 15:47 #44011

    I find myself agreeing with Johnny Lynch once again, although I sense he speaks too much truth for some of the bury-your-head-in-the-sand type optimists on here. Besides, disagreeing with Mr Lynch can be dangerous thing to do as old Fonzy found out ay!

  134. Green Hut

    Jan 09, 2014, 15:47 #44010

    Amos + Mrs Amos- Of course, given any reasonable profit or loss, and the appearance of one those annoying rainbows/trophy opportunities, Kroenke could at any time provide Wenger with a percentage of our huge and ever growing cash balance to bolster our challenge. It wouldn't be prudent practice every year obviously, but maybe just occasionally if, God forbid, the manager should show the ambition to ask for it.

  135. hibeegunner

    Jan 09, 2014, 15:47 #44009

    Ron 14.41 post 46904 Agree 100 per cent apart from the move Wenger up stairs. If he does not sign a new contact (and I hope he doesn't) he should not have a place on the board. The man is a control freak he would find it hard to interfere.

  136. Westlower

    Jan 09, 2014, 15:33 #44008

    Ron, I contest your definition of 'blind faith.' Believing in Sam Allardyce is closer to blind faith than Clapton & Winwood. Every manager has his strengths and weaknesses and I believe Wenger's strengths far outweigh his weaknesses. There is no such thing as the perfect manager. Given the chance I would't replace him with any other Premiership manager right now. Wenger has produced as good a squad as we've had in recent years and he deserves to see his project through to fruition. I cannot countenance being consistently in the top 4 as failure, given the circumstances of the move from Highbury. I'd be interested to hear who you think would do a better job? Who would be the best choice when AW retires?

  137. Amos

    Jan 09, 2014, 15:16 #44007

    @jeff wright. Sadly, in modern football, finance is anything other than irrelevant. The financial malarkey, as you call it now having considered it with apparent certainty as smoke and mirrors in your earlier beef about the club's transfer dealings, is what you are indulging in now. If you're not able to determine, or are even interested in, where the smoke is coming from and where the mirrors are then you should probably avoid using it as a stick with which to beat the club. In fact you needn't pretend you have any concern or knowledge of the financial health or otherwise of the club at all other than as a distraction from the idea that you're simply p***ed off that your support hasn't been validated by silverware in the last 8 years.

  138. Highbury Boy

    Jan 09, 2014, 15:08 #44006

    Let's keep things in perspective. After 20 games we have less points this season than last season from the corresponding fixtures. In terms of results it has been very similar to last season e.g. home draws with Everton, narrow wins at Newcastle,defeats at Manu. Unless there is an improvement in results especially in the 6 pointers against Man C and Chelsea coupled with their decline we will once again be fighting for a Top 4 finish. Unless of course we bite the bullet and buy.

  139. jeff wright

    Jan 09, 2014, 15:08 #44005

    Gooner Ron, I was referring to the Ozil signing being more smoke and mirrors by Stan and Ivan not by Wenger. I don't believe that Ozil was his signing any more than that Korean striker was . And if you are asking do I believe that Stan and Ivan would spend 42m on a smoke and mirror job ,the answer is yes taking account of the circumstances at the time after our bad start and the pressure that they were under. Even after the Villa game Wenger and players like Ramsey and Jack were saying that we didn't need any new players signed. For us to win the league now from the position we are in with just a point advantage at the top would be a

  140. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jan 09, 2014, 15:04 #44004

    The spuds never live up to any hype especially their own,it's always going to be grounghog day for them as long as the exist. I suppose the same could be said of ourselves over the last seven or eight seasons how many times have we heard this is our season, it's going to be different this time, just for the same old ,usual out come. Is it going to turn out to be another ground hog season for us? Well as you say we're twenty games in with eighteen to go and top of the pile and a position we haven't been in for a long time, and it has been suggested we might never find ourselves in again for just as long, a position to go on and win the PL. To say the league is there for the taking as i previously have, may be as some pointed out jumping the gun a bit but the chance is there none the less, a great chance, not for next season, or the season after that, this season, the hear and now, is where we're at will we take it? For the manager not to do everything in his power now, to give us the best possible chance of achieving something now, this season, that we haven't for a long long time will be criminal and that's putting it mildly.

  141. jeff wright

    Jan 09, 2014, 14:55 #44003

    Amos,further to my last post I should point out that Wenger has shown a massive profit on his transfer dealings an estimated £311 million . Wages are always an ongoing thing and they are financed by profits made from the stadium. Wenger's and Ivan's ones,some near 10m a year are also paid from the stadium profits . Ivan pays himself hefty bonuses based on profits earned from other than the stadium money . Nice work if you can get it. In fact you could say that it's money for old rope.

  142. Ron

    Jan 09, 2014, 14:41 #44002

    JJ - I think the post by JL is fair comment too, not in the sense that its the dead on absolute truth as none of us have the monopoly on that concept. Its a view shaped by precedent though ie AW s style and decisions over a few years now leading JL to take the position he has. Its an OK post though as its a challenge to AW and any who still has blind faith in AWs abilty to bring home the bacon this season. The problem is on here, that there are many posts that claim to be absolute truth or the poster having unimpeachable knowledge and its barmy. JL may be proved right though. He may be miles of the mark too. Those who are still 100 pc behind AW are now in the zone of being able to back him to the hilt and conveneiently air brush the last few years away. Many others arent prepared to do that, hence posts like JL s. It doesnt make him 'wrong' does it and in turn, AWs supporters may at the seasons end say, 'theyre you go, we knew he d restore his former gloss'. It still wdt make JL s views outlandish. What they have no entitlement to do is to condemn him for his views as some are doing, just because we re astride the PL table now, at this moment. If they do, its rank opportunism of the worst kind (in its convenient ignorance of earlier seasons implosions of which we re all so familiar with) and ignores the very real risk that Wengers decsions may still actually be the wrecking ball to the season. The poo pooing and chiding of such views is quite pathetic really as JLs view isnt unreasonable, far from it, and is surely no less unreasonable than those who are saying that 'title is there for the taking' or 'we only need x amount of points to claim it' or 'this team is far better than whats gone before' or 'take your negative views and f--k off to WHL' type posts. The Wenger apologists have an arrogance about them at the moment thats a bit distasteful to be honest, esp as theyre re trying to re write/ignore history to a degree as their blinkers are right now proudly worn to Wengers failings for at least the last 3 years. I do wonder where their pride would be if things do unravel differently to how they want them too as JL thinks they will. The anti Arsenes will be in just the same position. For the record, my view is that Arsene shd step upstairs and we take a new coach even if we do win the title.

  143. jeff wright

    Jan 09, 2014, 14:25 #44001

    Amos, my point regarding the sale of Gervinho and the purchase of Ozil was regarding the money that Wenger had in his so-called war-chest. All of your ramblings about amortised wages irrelevant to the amount of cash that Wenger spent and received. I don't know if a profit or loss was made on selling Gervinho's ,I suspect a loss was probably made though and who knows what will happen with Ozil in the future he could be sold before his contract ends ,same as Gervinho,RVP and a host of others . You really do take all of this finance malakey far too seriously . I suppose though that it helps to distract from other matters such as the inept transfer dealings that we endured last summer and 8 years with lots of lovely amortized profits,but no silverware to go with them.

  144. Amos

    Jan 09, 2014, 14:09 #44000

    Chris. You've got it right on the money - to use an appropriate phrase.

  145. Amos

    Jan 09, 2014, 13:59 #43999

    SGRB. No I'm not offsetting those costs. Players wages are a major liability as a contractual commitment but an additional liability. They are not offset against contract costs which are amortised as a liability over the period of the contract. Any contractual renewal costs, signing on fees, agents fees et c., would be added and additionally amortised over the new period should a contract be renewed before it expires. That's another reason why headline figures of net transfer spend can be so misleading.

  146. Chris

    Jan 09, 2014, 13:57 #43998

    SGRB - I think Amos has previously said that the transfer fee itself is accounted for as amortisation over the course of the player's contract. Hence a player can be sold for less than he cost towards the end of his contract but still be considered to be sold at a profit (in accounting terms) if the fee is greater than the remaining amortisation liabilities needing to be discharged. Or have I got that completely arse about tit, Amos?

  147. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Jan 09, 2014, 13:42 #43997

    Amos - are you offsetting the cost of the player's wages over his time at the club against the transfer fee received? Are you saying that's one of the major liabilities?

  148. Amos

    Jan 09, 2014, 13:40 #43996

    @SGRB. If I am reminding anyone of anything it is only that there is more depth to the issues of transfer finance than the superficial debates some would prefer to consider. Some are interested some, perhaps over sensitive to the challenge to their views, are not I guess. But what was that you were saying earlier about levels of seriousness and intensity??? :)

  149. jjetplane

    Jan 09, 2014, 13:38 #43995

    Well said Mr Lynch. The only way we might win the PL Is if Wenger does a lot more self-lambasting. The peculiar behaviour of our defence in the last year is surely not down to Wenger but I suggest the blokie 'wiv no hair' has a lot to do with it. There are some semi-leaders in there now who are effecting games more profoundly than the Nasris and Fabregases and that has to be the instilling of squad mentality over a free for all individualim. Wenger could now do with another coach (DB) to get everyone 'using an elbow' when they need to. Totally understand where J Lynch is coming from and his post has no less credence than those who are 'toeing the line'. We need voices like that inside the dressing room and on the bench. Do you think Flamini is saying 'oh well you are doing your best...' Er no. More like 'get thy f...... arse in gear or ship out laddie'. That's how you win something. Remember the effect Adams had on Anelka. Anelka had someone to look up to on the pitch. Ozil for all the reasons already posted is a great buy despite the critique. It does enable Arsenal to step into global arena with a bigger reverberation and let's hope Wenger will not turn his back on the opportunity to make the other big boys stir out of their dreamscapes. I am hoping that Citeh and Chavgrad are just 'too good' to win the title and the most well-focussed outfit steal it. That leaves us and Everton! @ Badarse 2 gigs - Zeppelin at Ally Pally & Neil Young & Booker T at Finsbury Park .... Here we go Here we go .....

  150. Amos

    Jan 09, 2014, 13:28 #43994

    @jeff wright. I can see that you find it confusing. It appears as though it is rocket science to you. I am pleased that you own your own car but in all honesty wasn't overly concerned that you did. I mistakenly thought that using your own analogy might be helpful to you. The point really being that you didn't 'own' Gervinho (or more accurately his contract). If you had, when you sold that contract, there would have been liabilities to discharge. I doubt if anyone had said we can give you Jeff's car as well it would have altered things very much! The issue here though is that you're criticising the club's financial commitments to transfers as smoke and mirrors when you have no real appreciation or interest in understanding that both the smoke and the mirrors are yours.

  151. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Jan 09, 2014, 13:20 #43993

    Yes, Amos, and you do like to keep reminding us of your unparalleled levels of foresight and understanding, don't you. Mindful of your need to have the last word in every exchange you have I'll stop there and say: Cue Amos...

  152. jeff wright

    Jan 09, 2014, 13:16 #43992

    Amos, it's your own distorted views on football finance that I find confusing,they just do not add up. As for your odd car analogy I own my car and have no debts on it so when I trade it in for another I will off-set what I get against the new one. As I said before it's not rocket-science.

  153. Ron

    Jan 09, 2014, 12:56 #43991

    J Lynch - It looks like the Danish strike master's back before we know it, so says the press today. I bet youre pleased arent you? If he is , id wager that puts the kybosh on loans or buys in this window? I never thought theyre would be any anyway however. We'll see wont we.

  154. JJB

    Jan 09, 2014, 12:54 #43990

    Oh Johnny Lynch, I despair when I read your type of diatribe, thankfully you remain in the very small minority. I have to firmly agree with westlower, you must look at table and see something very different to the rest of us, there seems to be a very strange effect in play with fans like you...when the team is failing then by all means lambaste the manager, but when the team is doing well you still lambaste the manager......no logic, no sense, just partisan-ism at its worst.

  155. Amos

    Jan 09, 2014, 12:53 #43989

    @SGRB. You'll be pleased to hear then that I wrote my post in the same spirit of mild amusement. Any flicker of a thought I might have had that you harboured any serious interest in understanding the sticks that you or others choose to beat the club with was more in hope than expectation though it's fun to entertain the idea that you might.

  156. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Jan 09, 2014, 12:42 #43988

    @Amos, I wrote that last comment because it mildly amused me briefly to do so. I'm afraid I've yet to attain your levels of seriousness and intensity.

  157. Amos

    Jan 09, 2014, 12:35 #43987

    @SGRB. It seems even that simplified version is difficult to get your head around so let's give it another go. Income from player sales is current income and is used to discharge current liabilities producing a profit or loss. It is that profit that is available to spend not the revenues you receive. Player contract purchases are forward liabilities even if you pay the whole sum upfront so that for example Ozil's costs over a 4 year contract would be some £20m a year for the next 4 years (contract costs, agents fees, wages etc). If you didn't have the financial discipline to cover those liabilities and simply treated all income as money available to spend then eventually you would have nothing to spend. Not accountancy jargon or FT speak at all - just simple everyday arithmetic really.

  158. Westlower

    Jan 09, 2014, 12:33 #43986

    @JOHNNY LYNCH, Please check that you're not standing upside down as you look at the PL table. Yes, it's Arsenal on top, not the bottom as your tone suggests. AFC are not locked into a relegation battle. This is a very good Arsenal side and I feel sorry for you if you think different. If you agree it's a very good side you cannot dismiss the fact that it's Wenger's creation.

  159. GoonerRon

    Jan 09, 2014, 12:30 #43985

    @ Jeff - do you really think Wenger would spend £42m on a player just to engage in a game of smoke and mirrors or to appease the fans? I just don't see it. Irrespective of whether Ozil has thus far fully justified our outlay, it is clear that his signing has had a hugely positive effect on the players, the fans, the allure of the club and probably commercially too. Not forgetting he has contributed well on the field in his early career too. This 'halo effect' has given us additional impoteous, there can't be any doubt. More generally, I think Galway Gooner sums it up well in that we've beaten mostly who we should and dropped points mostly when the odds suggests it was likely. If we can continue this level of consistency in the second half of the season we will be firmly in the mix when the silverware is dished out.

  160. Johnny Lynch

    Jan 09, 2014, 12:25 #43984

    Look, let's get things into perspective. First things first, everyone on here loves Arsenal and wants us to be winners again , and no-one on here (presumably) writes depressing articles or responses because they want to annoy fellow supporters.. but.. Wenger will ruin our season , again. We won't beat Bayern Munich, that's just the way it is. If Wenger cannot send a side to outwit David Moyes he won't be able to get past any team that Guardiola sends out. That's just the way it is. Against the top clubs (at least the top clubs in name) this season in the Premier league Wenger has been found out , Tony Pulis send a side to City that contained them for large parts of the game, Wenger went toe to toe and we got smashed. . Chelsea came to us for a draw and got it .. Wenger's a second rate , busted flush , he's now bemoaning the fact that Bendtner's out injured, seeing him as the saviour up front. The facts are simple , Cesc , Van Persie , and Nasri left Arsenal because they were fed up waiting for Wenger to deliver. Problem is the supporters don't have that choice, we can't go anywhere. 8 million a year for abject failure. Breaks yer heart

  161. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Jan 09, 2014, 12:15 #43983

    @jeff wright, a simplified version of the Amos guide to football finance for you: Only look at player expenditure. Money received from player sales doesn't count - it gets lost in accountancy jargon.

  162. Amos

    Jan 09, 2014, 12:03 #43982

    @jeff wright. The money from your old car that goes towards your new car would be what is left after you have paid off whatever is owing on your old car. If you're spending without discharging your liabilities first you'll be getting a call from the bailiffs before long. Your point about wages was that you claimed that somehow we were saving money on wages which mitigated Ozil's cost. Clearly we aren't - our wage costs will be higher not lower. I can understand your frustration with football finance but if you're confused about Ozil's transfer costs it would be rude not to help you see through the smoke and mirrors that distort your view.

  163. jeff wright

    Jan 09, 2014, 11:51 #43981

    Hi Amos, well if all of those players ,or deadwood, that were off-loaded in the summer were still on our wage bill then along with the current players and their increased pay rises we would have an even larger wage bill then what we do have. So what is your point ? Regarding the selling of Gervinho and the purchase of Ozil, if I sell my car and buy a new one then the money I receive for my old car off-sets some the cost of the new one. It’s not exactly rocket science to work this out. I preferred football when it was all about competing for trophies rather than like reading the FT. City are faves for the title but if Chelsea beat them at Poundlands and us at Neverland ( trophies are never seen there)then it could get interesting .

  164. Amos

    Jan 09, 2014, 11:46 #43980

    I'd have to agree that City remain favourites for the title and to be fair to them they're playing some great football too. They're compelling at home but I'm not sure that, based on their form in the first half of the season the fixtures they have are, for them, a much easier run in. They have played all but 2 of the teams currently in the bottom half of the table and won only 4 of the 8 they played. They have played only two of the teams in the top half lost one of them and drew the other. So they still have to play away at 8 teams in the top half and only 2 in the bottom half. Of course they may win them all - then again they may not. In any event argument that you have to win against the top teams to win the title just isn't true. As I've pointed out before ManU won the title in 2009 despite winning only once against the other teams in the top four and losing 3 games (City may even take comfort from the fact that they didn't win a single away game against any of the top 8 though unlike city they won all the other away games). In truth there're far too many variables to predict what happens but we've had a great ride this season and we should just look to enjoy the rest of it whatever it holds in store for us.

  165. BADARSE

    Jan 09, 2014, 11:35 #43979

    Thanks for the heads up on the article Ron. Though I wasn't in the vanguard of that particular idea as you were, I expected the transition to be quite choppy with the new man. I hoped it would affect the team points-wise of course, but more importantly to split the camp and that they might go into meltdown, that is happening! Once a bullying toe rag, always a bullying toe rag, so well done AF, what a legacy, compared to that which AW will leave us with. I am also with you on RvP. It cannot be realistic though. Isn't he on £230K per week? Didn't we offer around £50k a week less as our best offer? He can just remain on the treatment table for the next three and a half years drawing his wages. If he was coming back he wouldn't get parity of salary obviously, neither would he get a lengthy contract. He is history.@ Ah come on jeff wright, move like Jagger, will you?

  166. jeff wright

    Jan 09, 2014, 11:30 #43978

    Westie,I don't buy your optimistic view that the second half of the season will see us out-gun our stronger rivals by a point or two to win the title. With our now depleted squad, we obviously need at least a decent striker for starters . City have an easier run in now than us having played all of the top sides bar Chelsea and beat them all at home. I was responding to the comments and claims made in the article . Given our record against the top sides this they have to play us again claim is one of the false positives that I mentioned.Because on all known and realistic evidence this is not in our favour as you are trying desperately to claim .Girioud's goal scoring ratio against them, and our other players also, says so.

  167. Westlower

    Jan 09, 2014, 11:02 #43976

    @Jeff, Heartwarming to read your optimism never wavers. Yes, we have some difficult pockets of fixtures but so does every one else. We all play each other twice and having completed the first phase we find we had better results than the rest. If we repeat that feat we are Champions. I don't buy your theory that we flatter to deceive, picking up points in the 'wrong' games & only won where we were entitled to. The team with the most points wins the prize, doesn't matter a monkeys where the points are gained. Same again please!

  168. Amos

    Jan 09, 2014, 10:57 #43975

    It's certainly the best position we've been in at this stage of the season since Jan 2008 but even in Jan 2010 at this stage we were only 3 points off the lead. If it was foolish to predict disaster at the beginning of the season it must also be foolish (though much less so) to predict triumph half way through it. Whatever the outcome it is no more a defining season than any of those that have gone before. As westlower points out the team is still improving and the club well able to make sustained investment which is ultimately far more important than misjudged speculation in delivering success. We should buy when we can add value not simply to chase rainbows because we don't think we'll ever see another. @jeff wright. Just to help peer through the smoke and mirrors the money we received for Gervinho was a reported £8m but we would still have been carrying amortisation liabilities of at least £5.3m for his contract costs so the maximum profit we would be able to show on player trading from his sale to set against any liabilities for transfer costs incurred in this summer would have been £2.7m (after agent's fees et c., invariably much less). At the same time there will be no saving on player wages as invariably they will be higher this season than last.

  169. Ron

    Jan 09, 2014, 10:43 #43974

    Westie - A reslly good article about Manure in the online Daily Telegraph blaming Ferguson for Man U s demise. Its very good and actually gives time to my theory that AF only recommended Moyes, so that his achievements wdt be superceded in the blink of an eye as might have occured had they appointed a top coach.Im not at all saying i was the 1st with that theory, but i was quicker off the mark than the guy in the Telegraph for sure!!Matey - i wdt have RVP back however much we need a striker. Hes on the slide and at the time of his transfer i maintained it was good business at the price to flog him as the injuries would soon start again as he hit his 30s and with 2 full years behind him. I d sooner lost the title than offer him a way back to piggy back any glory Arsenal might yet get. Him and the likes of Fabregas, Nasri and Co, cdt create a winning formula when they had the chance first time out so im blowed if i would have them back now for some unearned belated glory. Once gone - stay gone for me, whoever they are. Seems a blanket and arbitrary attitude you may say? Absolutely, but giving such types a way back just encourages those that come later to try the same stunt, while they line their pockets elsewhere.

  170. jeff wright

    Jan 09, 2014, 10:28 #43973

    So in other words without some serious investment in our squad ( unlikely now in January) that should have been done last summer - it's just another top 4 finish and no trophies again. The Ozil signing was another smoke and mirrors job he cost in reality around 30m taking account of the money we got for Gervinho and other savings made from letting freeing up wages by letting players go . Once again though we have come up short against the top sides in the league and face a tougher run of fixtures in this second half of the season with injuries and possibly the loss of early season form from Ramsey another negative. The pointing at aeroplanes by Wenger and Ivan while citing false positives are like true lies just an illusion that reality will blow away .

  171. BADARSE

    Jan 09, 2014, 10:26 #43972

    Morning radfordkennedy, a nice connection with westlower, shame there was a bit of a downside, but full marks to you for milking the moment. Did you do as I suggested and enhance your machismo with your lady by playing Andy Williams' 'Home Lovin' Man'? @ westlower should just mention Fats Domino, Nat King Cole, Tony Bennett, all fantastic and instantly recognisable. Also play Dean Martin and Neil Diamond, even like Manilow on occasions, oh and I saw Paul Simon at the old Wembley Arena.

  172. Westlower

    Jan 09, 2014, 10:17 #43971

    Alex, Good summary of where the PL is at this time. None of the media experts gave AFC any chance of being Champions before the season started and after the opening day loss some were predicting that AFC wouldn't make the top 6 & the manager would be gone by September- December. Many predicted Spurs would finish ahead of AFC after their £100m spend. On paper AFC cannot compete on equal financial terms with the Manchester clubs & Chelsea but we're certainly making a good fist of it on the field. The policy of buying young players with potential is coming to fruition. Mixed with a blend of classy older players we have a squad that will continue to improve while Man U have let their squad grow too old. It'll take a massive investment for them to get back on track, which they may well do. Vitally, they are also missing the Fergie intimidation factor over the match officials. No longer are they getting awarded the 50/50 decisions which was a major factor in them strolling the PL last season. RVP back to Arsenal anybody? Liverpool have benefited by not being involved in Europe & exiting the CapOneCup early but I'll be surprised if Suarez doesn't head for Spain come the summer. Everton will fall short as they don't have enough class players. The spirit within Arsenal's dressing room has enabled the team to bounce back from any setbacks encountered so far. To date TV scheduling hasn't been helpful. It's encouraging that OX is back training and I hope we don't panic and buy a sub-standard or egotistical player in Jan who could disrupt the team harmony. Points wise we're bang on target to be thereabouts when the prizes are handed out & the final 5 games are very winnable. Win, lose or draw this present team is still improving and will continue to do so for the foreseeable. As a football club, we're in superb shape for a very bright future indeed.

  173. MoFaya

    Jan 09, 2014, 10:16 #43970

    Arsenal should exit the Champions League ASAP (Bayern will ensure that) and the concentrate on the League and FA Cup as a secondary target. The FA Cup games can used to keep the bench busy and ready for the assault on the league in case of injuries.

  174. BADARSE

    Jan 09, 2014, 10:14 #43969

    westlower very interesting list of concerts. I haven't seen that many though have the distinction of seeing 'Brotherhood of Man' at a Dinner/Dance donkey's years ago, ha ha. Our crossover was the Hollies. Allan Clarke's voice was really good for me. never seen but am a big fan of Andrea Bocelli. Saw McCartney on his world tour. Seen Billy Joel a couple of times, one immediately after his break with Christie Brinckley and you could feel the sadness in his voice throughout the concert. Beatles and Billy J as mentioned. Seen Clapton five times, four at The Albert Hall and once at the old Wembley. Saw Elton John there too, that was an aberration, ha ha. U2 also there. Oh and I saw the Kinks...no hang on, that was at the Arsenal during Billy Wright's time. @ Bard surely an assessment should be sensible and factual, passion on other occasions. If you want some of that I'll offer you an avalanche of it; now let's concentrate, what are your musical tastes chum?

  175. Galway Gooner

    Jan 09, 2014, 9:52 #43967

    We've done better than most would have said at the start of the season and we are far and away the most consistent side in the league. Bar the blip in the first game to Villa we've pretty much won every game we've been expected to win and lost every game we've been expected to lose. 18 more games to go and we need 40-42 more points to likely win the league, that about 2.27 points per game (we are currently averaging 2.25) so keep up the current rate of return and it may be enough. Look at the fixture list and see if there are 13 wins for us on the list? It will be incredibly close and we will likely need to pick up 3 points against City and possibly even Chelsea (I don't think they are the main challenger) to win it but its very possible. Come on ye Gooners!

  176. Bard

    Jan 09, 2014, 9:51 #43966

    Alex that post is bland in the extreme, a statement of the bleeding obvious. 'an interesting season" is that all ? It's a defining season mate. For the first time in years we have a terrific shot at the title. We are a player or two away from giving Citeh and Chelsea a proper run for their billions. It needs a our beloved boss to pull his finger out and man up. A serious run at the title will change the perception of Arsenal from serial also rans to worthy challengers and will make recruiting top players easier. I know others disagree but to my mind it's now or never. Where's your passion Alex.

  177. TheRealWorld

    Jan 09, 2014, 9:24 #43963

    I would love to drive a Ferrari. Or a McLaren. But, in the Real world, I earn just enough to own a Vauxhall. And I NEED to drive to work. So I bought a Vauxhall. In the recent weeks we've lost striking options. Now it would be awesome to buy a Ferrari up front. But we're in the Real World adn the waiting list for Ferrari's is a bit long, and right now we NEED a car to drive us to the title. We should get a Vauxhall