Shame on us

Anti-semitic chanting continues amongst Arsenal fans



Shame on us

Racist in the crowd?


At last weekend’s FA Cup game I was extremely disturbed to hear two fans sing a song that included the line “gas them all”. In the noise of the crowd I was unable to hear the rest but I imagine it was along the same lines.

It is even more disturbing that this was not the first time I have heard similar chants while watching Arsenal. In my view this is a problem away from home. On a train home once from Blackburn I heard a large group of fans sing “Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz”. I heard the same chant at a train station in Wigan and a bar in Munich (this may have been a violation of German law - but I don’t know enough about this to be sure). In Munich, it was one supporter, but the key point is that is one too many. Away at Manchester City I also heard a song with the chorus “f***ing Jews” in reference to Spurs.

Obviously there are also many chants at Arsenal that include the word “Y***o”. You may think this is a light hearted word but to those Jews who know that it was used by Oswald Mosley’s black shirts in the 1930s it is deeply wounding. The use of the P or N words would be entirely unfathomable these days, and Y** should be so as well. It is a similar situation to Ron Atkinson’s use of lazy “n****r” to describe Marcel Desailly. He didn’t understand how using such words together was incredibly painful for many black people in the context of slavery and segregation in the southern US.

There are several points to remember about these incidents, and the four others I have cited. The first is that the people involved in them probably, in fact almost certainly, would have had at least one relative who served in the war against Nazi Germany. For all I know they could have had relatives as prisoners of war, severely injured or even killed. So how can they now turn around and turn the Holocaust into a cheap line to taunt Spurs with? These people are too young to remember the emotional impact of the Holocaust, so this means they don’t realise what they are doing.

The second point is that Arsenal in fact has a large, possibly even larger than Spurs, following among London’s Jewish population. My own experience suggests a large proportion of Tottenham’s fans live in London’s commuter towns in Essex and Hertfordshire, places not known for their Jewish links. So the idea of Spurs as a “Jewish” club is in my view a bit of an urban myth these days. Arsenal also has large amounts of support among London’s non-white population. So it is utterly unacceptable that such supporters should be made to feel uncomfortable while following their side.

So what can be done? I twice e-mailed Arsenal in the week after the game only to twice get a reply about how “we don’t condone racism”. Well Duh! I never said that the club itself condoned this, but my point was they have a bit of an undiagnosed problem of anti-Semitic chanting at the club. My communication with the club suggests they are not especially interested in addressing this issue head-on, and that their apparent action on this matter, joint declarations with Spurs before matches, is not nearly enough.

If they were serious they would have investigated the issue and issued life bans to the two supporters. They would then have publicised this to illustrate how there will be hell to pay if supporters sing such songs.

The club’s apparent indifference means that we as supporters must try to stamp it out ourselves. Whenever a supporter sings such a song, they need to be turned on by other supporters and made to feel uncomfortable. This in my view would stamp out such chanting. We really are better than the likes of Millwall, Chelsea and West Ham where many supporters are happy to sing about Hitler, make Nazi salutes etc. There is in my view a slippery slope between such songs and attacks on Jewish schools, graveyards and synagogues. They are part of the same problem.


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69
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  1. mkherd89

    Jan 17, 2014, 11:58 #44333

    BORING

  2. Ed enough...

    Jan 16, 2014, 14:55 #44322

    Correct me if I'm wrong but don't the Spuds call themselves ****'s??? surely calling our manager a paedophile is a tad worse...yet still no one does sod all about it... You are clearly far to sensitive for football, maybe give tennis or cricket a try..

  3. Moscow Gooner

    Jan 15, 2014, 15:07 #44292

    As others have said, overlooks the fact that Spurs fans have adopted the 'Y*d' tag themselves, display Israeli flags, glory in the identity etc. As for the comment (Alsace Lorraine de Totteridge) about the old North Bank being a haven of toleration etc. that must have been a very different North Bank to the one I stood on in the 'seventies: viciously anti semitic (and racist) chants were much more prevalent back then. As for life bans for fans who reference the Holocaust, what is the logic for stopping there? Why not life bans as well for those who reference eugenics, Stalinism, Maoism, the Cultural Revolution, the trenches in World War I, slavery, the genocide of American Indians, Pinochet, the Irish famines, discrimination against gypsies, the Crimean War etc etc etc...??

  4. BADARSE

    Jan 15, 2014, 10:54 #44274

    Well said Thomas!

  5. Thomas Williamson

    Jan 15, 2014, 10:34 #44272

    Author of the piece here. I am pleased to see how much debate I have sparked. I want to clarify a few points. The call for life bans is for those who sing songs that reference the Holocaust not just the Y word. I hope all supporters can agree on this. Secondly when people sing the Holocaust songs away from home- they will have given their names to the club to buy tickets so are potentially traceable. The club should investigate such incidents in my view because they give off a bad impression of the club.I do not think we have a major problem with anti-Semitism, just there is still a minority of supporters who sing these songs and so we should be vigilant against it.

  6. BADARSE

    Jan 15, 2014, 8:15 #44264

    Clockender1 @murphyr. We are clearly all on the same page on this one. Any relatively innocent chants/comments need to be challenged, otherwise they become the thin end of the wedge, but you don't need to crack a nut with a steam-hammer! Authorities have to tread a fine line and generally give a blanket rule, this is true of most decision-making from councils/ leaders. There are many ramifications from all considerations, so I suppose I am saying they should highlight the problem, this is vital in my opinion, then use a level of understanding. None of this draconian 'life ban', but people should be aware that the world is turning, and peoples views and attitudes are always evolving and changing. What has gone before is not necessarily what we want in the future.

  7. Murphyr

    Jan 15, 2014, 1:22 #44259

    @Clockender1 @BADARSE This is really the crux of the matter isn't it? Spurs fans have "repatriated" the Y word to describe themselves. Its a badge, motif, war cry or whatever. Now that does not mean everyone has to like it but that is what it is in my view. The link to Judaism or Jewish people is, as many people on here have already pointed out, a highly tenuous one in the modern age. This for me puts chants or songs involving the Y word (only just noticed that the moderators block the word when we type it - a bit much in my opinion and slightly counter productive. Banning words does not challenge underlying prejudices) in a slightly different category to strict Anti-Semetism, historic or contemporary. Now none of this is completely cut and dried of course but i think there is enough to make a clear distinction between the chants of a few football fans directed at a cartoon version of an identity and actual anti-semtism itself. Perhaps i am naive but i think that ordinary folk do have it within them to draw the distinction themselves and don't really need "experts" in officaldom to constantly point out what is right and wrong when it comes to what we say. I'd hate to see a situation here that currently exists in Scotlad where its parliament has basically criminalised Auld Firm supporters for what they say rather than what they actually do.

  8. BADARSE

    Jan 14, 2014, 20:55 #44250

    Clockender1 I take your points, they clearly have merit. As I suggested it is a tricky one. People were astonished that the golly was taken off the jam jars, but that was a correct decision. Certainly non-Jewish Tottenham fans just see it as a nickname, it's the minority who are wounded though, the few sensitive Jews that it does offend, especially when linked with other words, scum, and concentration camp names. Difficult chum.

  9. Clockender1

    Jan 14, 2014, 20:42 #44248

    @ Badarse - " however using terms with nastiness and alluding to the holocaust pro-actively is wrong". anything that refers to the Holocaust is obviously wrong - but using the term for example in the "Heyyyy.... (you scum) where's your Captain gone..." song, really a dig at Judaism and its followers or is it just a dig at a smaller/lesser club ? unlike the N word, the term is still used widely in Jewish culture referring to the dialect, songs, theatre and even Art. In many parts of European Judaism the term has no negative connotations at all. of course it can be used as an insult, but then so can many words intrinsically linked to many cultures - the Irish and Paddy for example, The Americans and Yanks.

  10. BADARSE

    Jan 14, 2014, 17:38 #44242

    Clockender1 you make some very valid points. I am the last to want a sanitised life, so am with you on that one. I also know the edges of most things gets blurred and racism, or more specifically words or expressions deemed racist can be sometimes indistinguishable from common or garden slang. In my growing up circles many moons ago Jews were often referred to in a friendly, and to their faces as ****dish. As you quite rightly say, they used the term themselves. What we are talking about is a damnably difficult subject, and one almost impossible to police effectively, however using terms with nastiness and alluding to the holocaust pro-actively is wrong. What we do about it is open to conjecture, but our club can instrument a policy which the stewards could endorse. I think if the fans were just singing vile expletives, in fact any offensive swear words they would be encouraged to tone it down in a public place, and a football stadium is certainly that. Difficult though. Sometimes the gesture of the club acts as a catalyst.

  11. Clockender1

    Jan 14, 2014, 17:08 #44241

    Sorry, I reject the "slippery slope" argument, as you can argue the converse - it's a "slippery Slope" in censoring free speech.... As noted by Quartz among others - the usual songs are sung AT Spurs fans, not at Jewish fans. Spurs fans call themselves it both individually and collectively. Its been part of London slang for generations and always will be, to try to compare it with us of the N word which is historically tied up with Slavery, segregation and human rights abuses is laughable. I do understand that some Jewish fans find it offensive, but where do we draw the line ? - do we stop calling Chelsea Chavs ?, northerners "norven monkeys" ??? just how PC do we have to be ? - no more bad language ? in case we offend women and kids ? should we stop singing "went to Rome to see the Pope.." in case we offend Catholics ??? And although i'm no history expert i don't recall the use of that term featuring in or being representative of persecution of Jews in Europe or the Middle East, more that it comes from the use of ****dish which was used as the language of central European Jews until the early 20th century. so, i think if you're offended by bad language and common London slang, perhaps a football match is not the best place to go if you want to be in a totally sanitised environment.

  12. BADARSE

    Jan 14, 2014, 8:03 #44201

    Morning gentlemen, (and any ladies out there-perhaps make yourselves known?).So a 21 game assessment, all seven top teams won, Southampton and Newcastle both drifted a little more off the pace. Still top, 17 to go, 'Forward Arsenal'!

  13. Westlower

    Jan 13, 2014, 22:12 #44200

    Come on you rip roaring, goal scoring, title chasing Gunners! 48 points from 21 games, another 39 points from a possible 51 may be enough.

  14. BADARSE

    Jan 13, 2014, 22:04 #44199

    Er, top still?

  15. HowardL

    Jan 13, 2014, 19:04 #44198

    It surprised me to see this discussed in so much depth and with such seriousness. Congratulations! Racism should never be taken lightly. Of course, some perpetrators don't understand, or view their joining in with chants as a harmless joke. Perhaps they are too young to remember the Holocaust, or Pol Pot, perhaps not even Rwanda - but they must know of others like Saddam Hussein - and now Syria. As one of the posts pointed out: it's not just what it happens now, it's what it can lead to. Not quite the slippery slope but still quite a fine line. Think again about the Holocaust; it's just a word but represents Six Million people murdered, gassed - enough to fill the Emirates 100 times over - picture that then try saying again don't that it's a harmless joke...

  16. Westlower

    Jan 13, 2014, 18:33 #44197

    @Jeff Wright, Thanks for mentioning the bookies massive liabilities if Arsenal win tonight. The cynic in me worries when large sums of money are at stake. Fingers crossed the officials give honest decisions, unlike the clowns in yesterday games.

  17. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jan 13, 2014, 18:20 #44196

    Ron, proper proof would indeed be needed instead of hear say what's to stop one fan or more who has took a dislike to another over an argument/disagreement about something maybe over Arsene for example,to report his seat number and say he's using racist language to get him in trouble or worse? indeed maybe it has already happened.A good point on knowing who's using your seat especially season ticket holders if someone in it starts being racist or misbehaving in any way who's gonna be held responsible? no doubt it would be the holder who would find themselves in trouble i've no doubt this has occurred on numerous occasions. I wonder what way the ticket exchange works/looks on this, is the seller or the buyer of the seat held responsible.

  18. jeff wright

    Jan 13, 2014, 18:13 #44195

    Hi Ron, you could be right about a draw ,I know Westie can't mention this but I will , the bookies stand to lose more money tonight if we win than when Detorri rode his 7 winners at Ascot , with all of the banker bets on football winning on Saturday leaving multi-millions running on our little amigos ! Goodluck to them and the punters .

  19. BADARSE

    Jan 13, 2014, 18:06 #44194

    Just wanted to record a 'well played' to pretty much all posters on this quite sensitive subject, stay classy Arsenal! @ Oh westlower, what a financial miss, still me too buddy at different times in my life, as I said, life is just a game. I knew your refusal to become a capitalist was at the root of your decision not to buy, ha ha.

  20. GoonerGoal!

    Jan 13, 2014, 17:26 #44193

    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing..." If you really believe that it's wrong for the ignorant to attack which ever group is their current target, then why aren't you doing something about it? If you are not brave enough to personally confront the miscreants inside the Emirates, all you need do is cease the hand-wringing, approach a steward, and point out what's happening. Every steward is duty bound to do something about it, and if they are unwilling to deal with it, then you should find a two-toned jacketed supervisor and report the facts. Seize the Day! VIVE LA REVOLUTION!

  21. mervcharles

    Jan 13, 2014, 17:01 #44192

    Didn't the club bring in an initiative a few seasons ago where you could send a text message when inside the ground to report any offensive chanting? All you had to do was send details of the persons seat and the nature of the chanting and apparently stewards would then take immediate action.

  22. Ron

    Jan 13, 2014, 16:10 #44191

    Westie - Yes, something along those lines provided reports were suitably verified by cameras should at least make a start on it. I think once a few were nailed, that would become a deterrent to others. Im not sure Clubs are bothered too much though to be honest.Theyre loathe to ban people. The income is more important to them. The problem is made worse by the fact that many people are in that stadium on seats that arent held by them. My own Silver is used sometimes by people who i dont know.

  23. Ron

    Jan 13, 2014, 15:48 #44190

    Jeff - I reckon tonight will be tougher than you think. If we score first, then we might take them out, but i wouldnt be surprised if a draw was on the cards tonight. This long undefeated run v Villa stretching back to the 90s wont last forever.We should win, but you never know with ours.

  24. jeff wright

    Jan 13, 2014, 15:01 #44189

    You missed a trick there Westie not buying those shares just think you might have become the man standing between Kroneke and Usmanov taking over! Wenger's statement that he will not be spending any money on buying another striker will please Kroneke no end with him already having to pay Bendy 50k a week and new signing Sanogo lying in wait to be unleashed by Arsene onto the Prem defences. Anyway at least 3 points looks on the cards in tonight's fun-fest with Lambert's lambs ready for the slaughtering by our refreshed players up-for it and hungry for points .

  25. Highbury Boy

    Jan 13, 2014, 14:42 #44188

    A sensible article. A sensitive subject as Arsenal's home crowd is always over 20,000 more than Spurs' and there is therefore little doubt that Arsenal has more Jewish supporters attending matches.

  26. Marc Ollington

    Jan 13, 2014, 14:36 #44187

    After I came out the toilet at half time I reckon at least 50-100 people were singing the 'running round Tottenham with our willys hanging out' song - only for after the 'I've got a foreskin haven't you?' line to hear the response 'f*cking jew' shouted out each time. I can't say I was impressed. The pissed blokes in front of me also spent the match shouting such witicisms as 'jew c*nts'. They were removed in the second half but mainly for starting a fight. Obviously this is't the entire crowd but it was enough people to feel a bit taken aback by how many twats we have supporting us.

  27. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jan 13, 2014, 14:31 #44186

    I have never heard that type of thing from any one at the Emirates and i've sat in more or less every part of the ground at one time or another, i'm not saying it hasn't or doesn't happen just that i've never heard it. Yes i'm sure Arsenal have as many fans from the Jewish population as the spuds, maybe they don't feel the need to let everybody know it as much as them. I got chatting to two lads inside the ground a couple of years back they told me they were from Israel and Arsenal had a big following,i thought they lived or were studying in london but no they flew in a couple of days earlier especially for the match and were going home a few days later, Respect.

  28. Westlower

    Jan 13, 2014, 14:27 #44185

    If anybody doesn't wish to be confrontational towards people chanting vile obscenities then simply make a note of their seat number and report them to the club/steward. The club should then name & shame these people in the club programme or online. A warning letter should be sent out reminding the culprit to behave responsibly in future games. Three strikes and they lose their club membership & access to future tickets. The stewards policing the away support would make a list of offenders seat numbers and their names & addresses can be sought from their parent club. All ticket holders are traceable. If they sold or gave their ticket to a mate then they would have to think twice about letting a serial offender reuse their ticket or club card. It's relatively easy to stamp out racist chanting if there is a will to do so!

  29. Ron

    Jan 13, 2014, 13:45 #44184

    Dickheads - Not quite sure why or how youve deduced that, but do feel free to spout off. Where on earth have i said or implied that i want to sing vile songs about another group of people? ref - the implication behind your suggestion of 'why cant we'. Im happy to re phrase or clarify if youve anything of use to say that might lead me to think that ive in anyway given the impression that you mention. Until then ill just assume that you like to reinforce your name.

  30. Westlower

    Jan 13, 2014, 13:44 #44183

    @Jeff Wright, The two shares I considered buying at approx. £100 each would have made me a nice profit as Stan paid £11,750 per share when he took control of AFC.

  31. Alsace Lorraine de Totteridge

    Jan 13, 2014, 13:37 #44182

    The voice of moderation is all very well, but vicious language can start to seem comfortable in a large group. How would you like to support Chelsea , where this sort of filth is a deep seated strain within their membership ? What you have to remember is that the racist free environment we have always enjoyed at Arsenal isn't a right. It's a privilege handed down to us which has to be defended. How many other traditions have we seen go down the pan because we let it slide? The Spurs fans threw coins at our staff. Where is our demand for their stadium to be closed for a game or two? Is their behaviour acceptable? I don't think it is, and neither is a select few of our choicest morons saying exterminatory things about Jewish people. There are a huge number of Jewish Arsenal fans, and trust me, not one of them laughs this sort of Sh*t off. It doesn't surprise me that Mr Friar did something about such behaviour beforehand. He's a proper grown up with a strong memory of the club's players and staff getting blown to bits killing fascists.

  32. jeff wright

    Jan 13, 2014, 13:35 #44181

    Is this the same Hill-Wood who sold his shares in AFC to 'to we don't his sort here' Kroneke for £4.5m ?

  33. sparsksy

    Jan 13, 2014, 13:31 #44180

    "There is in my view a slippery slope between such songs and attacks on Jewish schools, graveyards and synagogues." Calm down a bit mate. A couple of bods singing a song you didn't like?? Society is full of people who do and say things that someone else takes offence to. That will never change in a month of Sundays. You are within your rights to say something to someone who says/sings something you don't like but at the same time, whether you like it or not, in a free society they are entitled to say as they please. But get it in perspective. They are not about to start shooting down synagogues or schools. You will find that they have no issue with Jewish people or any other faith.

  34. Westlower

    Jan 13, 2014, 13:21 #44179

    It's easy to take a holier than thou stance about modern day club owners/shareholders. I was tempted to buy a couple of shares in AFC back in the 70's, principally to frame and hang on the wall, displaying my undying support of AFC. Then I read a comment from Mr Hill-Wood suggesting anybody who invested money in a football club was being foolish as it was a sure way to the poor house. I took his advice at face value & declined from buying my two shares. Fast forward 40 odd years and 'investors' from all corners of the World are queuing up to off load their millions/billions. Nothing stands still for long on planet earth! It's a fact of life that the piper calls the tune, whether we like it or not. Twas always thus!

  35. Dickheads

    Jan 13, 2014, 13:12 #44178

    A post from Ron that took up a lot of lines to say absolutely nothing at all and the general excuse of 'other people sing bad things so why can't we' - as if two wrongs make a right. Lame, utterly lame.

  36. jeff wright

    Jan 13, 2014, 13:10 #44177

    So Kroneke was praising the Glazers for braising revenue,this would have occurred any way any regime while Ferguson was winning pots of silver, but ignoring the fact that they were not bringing down the huge debt that they themselves had saddled the club with. Stan also supported their right to take money out of the club to pay to themselves said that there was nothing wrong with that. Yes,this all make sense !

  37. Westlower

    Jan 13, 2014, 12:57 #44176

    There are many instances where the media overstep the mark and try and influence the news rather than just reporting it. I listened to Adrian Durham on TalkSport commenting on Wenger's remark that the January transfer window should be done away with & clubs only allowed to sign new players if a serious long term injury crisis has occurred. To hear Durham ridiculing Wenger made me very angry. Yes, he is entitled to his opinion but do they not have a duty to behave responsibly and not abuse their privileged position in life. The garbage that was flowing from his mouth is simply encouraging fans to put pressure on ousting their clubs manager. Does he not appreciate some fans believe every word they hear and read. Disruption creates news, stability is boring and not news worthy. The way were going is they'll be a different manager for every month of the year. Sensationalism and disruption rules in the media!

  38. jeff wright

    Jan 13, 2014, 12:46 #44175

    GH, tbh I think it was down to Ferguson that United won those trophies and he was winning them before the Glazers arrived .

  39. Green Hut

    Jan 13, 2014, 12:35 #44174

    Jason- You mean the 5 Premier League titles, 3 League Cups, Champions League (plus another 2 finals) and Club World Cup they've won since we last lifted a trophy? I agree, shocking short-termism, they must be regretting it now.

  40. jeff wright

    Jan 13, 2014, 12:31 #44173

    Well er,Jason, Stan refused to rule out paying himself a dividend in the future fro profits made out of AFC and his henchman Ivan already pays himself big bonuses . Here is what Stan actually did say about Malcolm and sons... Kroenke said: "Since they took over United they have won and they have increased revenues by a huge amount. If I was a fan of that club, I would go there and go "Wow!" because how could you do it any better? 'We have a whole different philosophy I think in the States, maybe, but I think it's time maybe for everybody to think a little bit. 'I think they ought to think about who invests in these clubs. 'He (Glazer) took money out of the club. So what? (LA Lakers owner) Jerry Buss takes money out of his club. A lot of owners in the US do. No-one ever says anything about it." Of course they don't they just pay up to watch games and stay stumn. What Stan conveniently forgot to mention was that United ,who owned their stadium was a debt free club before the Glazers borrowed money at sky-high interest rates and was winning trophies anyway ! No wonder Ferguson jumped ship,he could see it was heading for the rocks. No one can say for certain how things will transpire at AFC in the future. Stan is still very dependent on Wenger securing CL cash every season and has had to raise ticket prices again even though it's been donkeys years since any trophies have been won .

  41. Croker

    Jan 13, 2014, 12:27 #44172

    There are laws and the club have policies and procedures to prevent this sort of behaviour. The problem is that in order to be effective, these laws and rules rely upon individual fans to root out the offendors and I wonder how many of us are willing to engage a steward or a policeman? thanks for alerting us to this persisting problem Thomas and articles like this should heighten people's awareness that it needs to stop.

  42. jason

    Jan 13, 2014, 12:04 #44171

    united are not in financial meltdown...yet....but if that is where they are headed then it will be because for the last few years they have chased short term success at the cost of stability and long term investment.....31 yr old van persie will still be costing them £20 million a year for the next two years....kroenke praised glazers for their success in raising commercial revenue two years ago.....not for the way they have leveraged debt which kroenke has never done at any of his businesses....he is doing things very differently from the glazers....

  43. Roy

    Jan 13, 2014, 12:04 #44170

    Well said Ron. Most of us try to conduct ourselves in the right way, but there will always be the moronic element in life. Unforfunately, as you rightly say, the SKY monster gobbling up all before it means that it's not only the good stuff that gets over hyped. You can hardly breathe now without being scrutinised as Pardew found to his cost yesterday, the same as many before him, managers and players. You can't just give it and take it and then just get on with it anymore, someone somewhere must be accountable for it whatever the alleged gravity of offence. Surely it goes without saying that the more coverage you give something, the more noticeable anything unsavoury is going to be. No, that doesn't make it any less serious, in fact some might say these things need highlighting - but to this extent ? As you say, reduce the platform somewhat though that won't be happening any time soon, more's the pity. Sometimes it does make you worry where it will all end up.

  44. ppp

    Jan 13, 2014, 11:38 #44169

    Nope, don't agree. I feel a lot more evidence should be required than "I heard them hissing and assumed the rest" if you're going to call on someone to get a lifetime ban from football. Fine to say all racists chanting results in a ban - but who gets to define what's racist and what's banter? Policing this sort of thing is ridiculously hard. Supporters turn on your fellow fans and dob them in? Ridiculous idea worthy of the Gestapo themselves. So what if you chant something about a fat player and someone takes offence. They round on you and shout you down. You protest then you get socked in the mush for your trouble. A few people around you agree that what you chanted was offensive so you get a lifetime ban on top of a punch in the face. Fair? Of course not. If you want a loud and aggressive atmosphere at football it's going to come with a minority of idiots chanting offensive claptrap.

  45. jeff wright

    Jan 13, 2014, 11:37 #44168

    Football attracts more than its fair share of morons they are not confined to Arsenal ones. Our supporters years ago gave support to black players when ones at other clubs,such as Chelsea , were racially abusing them. Unpleasant though it is those supporters who engage in these anti-Jewish chants aimed at Tottenham are just a tiny minority, whereas racial abuse abroad against black players is widespread and this is a problem that football chiefs, such as FFP Platini and Qatar oil money blathering Blatter , choose to ignore. On another note it's been revealed that United are going into financial meltdown after their poor results and the Glazers who borrowed money to buy the club are being accused of ineptitude by not accepting an offer to sell the club at a profit when its value was so high. Now who was that fellow American businessman who is not known for saying much about his own dealing but found the time to publicly support the Glazers by telling their critics that they were wrong and that the Glazer's were doing a damn fine job ...

  46. Unchives

    Jan 13, 2014, 10:45 #44167

    The vitriol verbalised to our manager at away games is beyond belief, also to Eduardo & Ramsey on return from horrific injuries, from northern Neanderthals, have these clubs done anything about it? As for some of the Spurs fans,whether they are Jewish or not, I don't know, but lets say my shoes have stepped in better. Lets defend our club first before we try and help others. Laying down moral rules is one thing....policing it is another.

  47. BADARSE

    Jan 13, 2014, 9:54 #44166

    Just going out but had a quick peek before I went. Glad I did, wanted to say, 'Well done' to you Ron. You have seen the wider causes and explained the bullet points well my friend.

  48. Dan

    Jan 13, 2014, 9:26 #44165

    Whilst i agreee with the sentiment of the article you can't point out '1 guy singing in a bar'. What is the club/society/anybody supposed to do about that. Arsenal fans on the whole are well behaved and represent the club far better than most clubs in the UK.

  49. Ron

    Jan 13, 2014, 8:18 #44164

    To be at the butt end of such chants must be pretty awful, however, blanket coverage of football and all of its aspects, relevant and irrelevant by TV and other media over the last 22 years has made for a sinister, unhealthy and resentful relationship between fans of different clubs hence the moronic segments of each club who engage in these chants will sink to lower and lower levels to goad and vilify the others fans. In this issue, the anti racism theme thats been taken up by the media and the game over the last few years, gives a platform for the chanters. Those types, will double their efforts and revel in bucking the anti racism momentum,, as they know the chances of eradicating some thing that has existed for 2000 years isnt going to occur. The media ought to shut up from seizing upon every instance of anything that whiffs remotely of racism and as such remove that platform. Its becoming so regular that the issue has become tedious and as such, there's less commitment to it by clubs fans overall than perhaps there otherwise would be. Its the Clubs via their stewarding and in house measures who can address this issue if the will and mindset is there in the first place. The extent of TV coverage of football has much to answer for. Its sheer volume has created many different strains of behaviour by fans, players, coaches (and owners even) since the SKY bubble arrived merely as they know they have a ready made audience. The vile chant brigade are just following suit. The coverage of football has been far too extensive for far too long and needs slashing in my view.

  50. BADARSE

    Jan 13, 2014, 7:47 #44162

    @murphyr you are correct in down playing any excited headless chicken reactions, but it is a dangerous position to cite personal circumstances to lay an overall blanket coverage of any aspect. I'm fortunate enough not to need glasses so why allow others free subscriptions? The thin end of the wedge is oft used and valid in all things racial. I do agree that the problem is a difficult one. It is also true that Jews suffer less at the hands of ignorant people, today Muslims have taken their place as the butt of religious/different peoples. That is ugly too! Anything that can be done should be done. Mosely? My Dad, a weightlifting, wrestling young man gave free self-defence lessons to Jewish young men in the 30's, and any post which includes that despicable individual's name is a post to absorb. Mine is a point of view, a little different to your view, I would question "...almost proud of them..." as naïve, pride is a seven deadly sin, isn't it? and is also a vacuous personalised statement. Sorry to sound a bit harsh, no offence to you because your account does give what you intended, 'perspective', so job done.

  51. Murphyr

    Jan 13, 2014, 6:32 #44161

    I think we need some perspective here. The examples that you have provided seem to me to show just how isolated the issue may be. I mean you have referred to a sum total of what, perhaps 15-20 people? This does not suggest to me that Arsenal has a "problem" with anti-semetic chanting. This is not to say that the chants themselves are not offensive but that i am not sure that there is any general issue which might constitute a major problem amongst Arsenal supporters or in general. Its pretty ironic that Spurs supporters famously decried en masse "We'll sing what we want" when told by professional ambulance chasers to stop singing things like "**** Army" this season. I must admit i was almost proud of them. The game has become far too sanitised and the boundaries of what you can and can't say seems more restrictive at football matches than just about anywhere else. There always seems to be someone in a shiny vest or uniform telling you to sit down, stand up, don't bring that in, you can't say that, you can't wave that, etc... My Mum is a Jew (my Dad's Irish) and i grew up with almost all of my family on that side referring to themsleves as **** (all gooners though!). Its a slang term to describe a jew and one that has been used by working class jews for decades. It is not offensive in itself. The references to Oswald Mosely are overblown in my opinion and as such, are really unhelpful. Jewish people do not face anything like the threat that existed in the 30's. Such comments can only contribute to creating a greater sense of insecurity rather than alleviating it. Just my opinion.

  52. Eddie

    Jan 13, 2014, 0:48 #44160

    Surprised there's no mention of the vile 'Paedo' chants that Wenger has to endure week in and week out. I reckon at times at Old Trafford you could actually say it's ten thousand odd people chanting it! And in my view, this is worse than the words you have just mentioned. Infact, is there anything worse to be called? And to this question, is there any possible way to stop it? There is no way in a million years that you can issue life bans to a thousand odd fans!

  53. Moi

    Jan 12, 2014, 19:47 #44158

    In similar circumstances years ago I wrote to the club and Ken Friar, then their MD, took immediate action to deal with the perpetrator. Arsenal certainly took the problem seriously.

  54. Alsace Lorraine de totteridge

    Jan 12, 2014, 19:15 #44157

    The old north bank used to be a place where, probably alone among London grounds,people of colour could come and watch a game of football safely. It was below the dignity of the club and our fans to think the way that would enable such filth to be sung. With money has come a new sort of moron in our crowd. One with no knowledge of the traditions of the club, where supporters would actually watch both clubs on alternate weeks. There is a difference between our rivalry with spurs which is keenly felt and actual racial or religious hostility. Since football nor the police can currently get their act together to prosecute spurs and their fans for throwing coins last week, it's time the government brought legislation to bear. I was one of those who thought that spurs fans use of the y word was their business. Now I'm not so sure. Let's throw the filth out of our grounds, fine them heavily and take their homes if they can't pay. As woody Allen says, the only way to deal with these people is baseball bats,or the legal equivalent.

  55. BNG

    Jan 12, 2014, 18:05 #44156

    Never been comfortable with the Y word so I don't use it, just refer to them as spuds

  56. QuartzGooner

    Jan 12, 2014, 17:48 #44155

    The Y Word is very complex and has been discussed at length on the Forum. It is a legitimate word used by Jews amongst ourselves and was turned into a negative by Mosley's crowd in the 1930's, then sort of "Reclaimed by Spurs fans, both Jewish and non-Jewish. The Holocaust chants can be heard around the ground but I have not heard them of late in the ground. I have posted this before on the Forum but I have heard some hardcore anti-Semitic "fans" making them on the tube to the ground, all adults in their 20's - 40's. Even though they were wearing Arsenal scarves, they were also asking other fans at King's Cross station "How do we get to Arsenal". Which made me think they were fans of other clubs coming to stir things up. There was nothing I could do at the time to prevent them, I was outnumbered and have no doubt a fight would have happened. @ Robert Exley - There are a lot of Jews who support Arsenal and Spurs, Arsenal have a longer historical and charitable involvement with the Jewish community than Spurs, dating back to Herbert Chapman helping Jewish charities whilst in the same years the old Spurs board flew the Swastika over White Hart Line. (See the fascinating book "Does Your Rabbi Know You're Here" by Anthony Clavane for more details.) There is a significant Jewish population living within a mile of Spurs's ground. Bottom line is why does religious hatred have to exist in football?

  57. Ted

    Jan 12, 2014, 17:22 #44154

    Arsenal are better than the likes of Millwall, Chelsea and West Ham? Are we some sort of high class perfectionist group. My view is all fans are pretty much the same.

  58. north

    Jan 12, 2014, 16:48 #44153

    Do you expect Arsenal to come out and declare we have a problem with anti-Semitism amongst the fans? Look at other clubs - do they publicly admit to the presence of Hillsborough, Munich, Wenger paedo etc chants? The most the club can feasibly do is be vigilant within the ground - not much help writing e-mails when you're back at home, why not report it during the match to a steward???

  59. Robert Exley

    Jan 12, 2014, 15:19 #44151

    I've long argued the Y word should be stamped out among Arsenal fans and almost every arguments to the contrary that I've heard are the lamest of the lame. It's a stain on our otherwise exemplary record on these matters. This author has rightly pointed out that few of the Spurs fans are actually Jewish and Tottenham isn't even a Jewish area anymore, they've all moved to Stamford Hill. Any arguments that they're referring to Tottenham fans and not Jews are equally lame, there is no Football context of the word that isn't linked to the racial one. Just kick it out. It demeans our club's reputation.

  60. Sanjay

    Jan 12, 2014, 15:02 #44150

    You might not hear this in the stadiums soo much these days with cctv etc, but trust me it is bubbling under and mainly surfaces in the pubs, the most common song being well be running round tottenham.... (as was the case in the 12 pins last saturday) Personally, I dont think the fans that sing these songs (most of them are kids) realise what they are saying, but that's no excuse.

  61. Marvin

    Jan 12, 2014, 12:51 #44146

    Well done Tom and Online Gooner for highlighting this.For too long some have tried to sweep it under the carpet.As a couple of the posts so far have proved.I was at the league cup game a couple of years ago at the Lane when the Auschwitz song was sung about Hitler going to do it again.And it wasnt the odd few.There is a massive difference from Spuds fans singing Y army to our fans singing a song about the Holocaust Hitler and 6 million jews being killed.Its got to end

  62. BADARSE

    Jan 12, 2014, 11:56 #44145

    Thank you Thomas. This indeed is a despicable aspect of life, and not just modern life. When times are rough, (when are they not now?), people close ranks and begin nurturing divisive mentalities. This is always going to be a problem but one that should be met. I am also of the opinion that every small protest, whether in a small group, or on a website like this, or alternatively as a huge and organised demonstration. This is a particularly tricky one to deal with as the abuse comes from ignorant cowards, and takes place away from areas of retribution; unless clubs take up their responsibilities it will go unchecked, so AFC should do their part. I also think that THFC should address their own, as their fans encourage it in their casual and ridiculous way by singing about it in a unifying chant.

  63. Martin F

    Jan 12, 2014, 11:03 #44144

    You heard this on a train somewhere near Blackburn,at a train station in Wigan and in a bar in Munich - and you want the club to investigate these external incidences even though they took place many miles away from the Emirates? You cannot expect the club to police the world. These are potential law breakers inciting racism. Record the incidences - take video evidence and contact the police. Contact Spurs and insist they stop their supporters celebrating a derogatory term. The least effective thing you can do is to bleat about it on an internet forum and blame it all very unfairly on the club as though it is their responsibility.

  64. 1975

    Jan 12, 2014, 11:01 #44142

    Two men have been instrumental to the clubs recent history. David dein for bringing Wenger and a host of world class players to arsenal. Danny fizman (rip) for the stadium that now earns us millions. My understanding is that both are Jews. I thank them both.

  65. iwasthere

    Jan 12, 2014, 10:53 #44141

    If I had the cojones I would challenge anyone I hear and simply say - "is your attachment to Arsenal stronger (rational and a point of view I have) than your hatred of Jews (irrational and a point of view I don't have)?" if they manage to understand the question, they'll shut up and think. If they don't they should be reported.

  66. Gavin

    Jan 12, 2014, 10:38 #44140

    Agree with the article. Where I sit there are guys who will make hissing sounds during games with Spurs. I can only assume that this refers t I gassing.... I also hear a song that ends with the words 'Jew scum'. I'm quite disgusted by it... However I do nothing about it because I don't believe the club are serious about it. There are stewards very close and they hear this but do nothing...

  67. Theo

    Jan 12, 2014, 10:27 #44139

    @Steve - Just because you haven't heard them doesn't mean they haven't been sung. I agree it's rare thesedays, but there are still isolated incidents and it's articles like this which highlight why it's wrong to the next generation. I don't really care what Spurs do; we're better than them and should never take our lead from their actions.

  68. Steve

    Jan 12, 2014, 10:21 #44138

    I have been to 100's of Arsenal games home and away over 25 years and i have never heard two of the three songs you mention. As for the other i remember that from over ten years ago. As for Spurs don't they call themseves the u know what army . Old old news

  69. Theo

    Jan 12, 2014, 10:06 #44135

    Well said and well done to the Online Gooner for highlighting the issue. It's better than it used to be, but until it's eradicated completely we must keep reminding people of why it's unacceptable.