Get Yer YaYas Out

Online Ed: Another season, another home defeat to Bayern Munich



Get Yer YaYas Out


Arsenal started this tie very well, with shots raining in and the visitors rattled enough to concede a penalty. It was an opportunity spurned. The spot kick was created by Mesut Ozil’s trickery, but what followed looked plain casual. The lack of a run up meant that his effort looked very lame, presumably an attempt to outwit the keeper that went wrong. It was the kind of chance you really cannot afford to miss at this level, and so it proved. More than one fan remarked that it was just our luck to have the one German who can’t take a penalty. Ozil missed with a similar style against Marseille earlier in the tournament.

Bayern, in turn missed from the spot later in the half, but critically, Arsenal were down to ten men as a consequence of Szczesny’s foul. The task was hard enough as it was, but even though the miss was a let-off, one feared what might develop as the game wore on.

Credit to Arsenal, they battled valiantly given their ability to attack was so minimal. On that level, time for the Yaya Sanogo debate. Olivier Giroud was fit enough to make the bench on Sunday and last night. The story is presumably that he is being rested. Yeah, right. There seems little doubt that the striker is being punished by Arsene Wenger for his 3am transgressions before the Palace game. Players having sex the night before a game is something that can’t be tolerated by the manager, and there used to be a ban on the hotel porn channel for his players to ensure there was no physical activity of any nature. However, times have moved on, and players now access porn on any number of devices that Wenger can’t control. So Giroud had a woman in his room when he should have been sleeping. Well fine him two weeks wages then. But to drop him from this game seemed incredibly churlish, especially given the alternatives.

Opinion about Sanogo’s performance was mixed. I don’t think anyone is going to criticize the player, given the situation he was thrown into (and Nicklas Bendtner will have his own thoughts about this development). For me, he was simply not up to the task being asked of him, especially when the side were reduced to ten men. He did get a shot in while the team had the full complement, but he did not impress me as much as some others. I think they were being generous. It would be far more valid to question the transfer policy that led to the situation of him being the alternative to Giroud for a game as big as this, but that is a long worn debate. Most people agree. It is madness to be relying on this kid. Arsenal got away with it v Liverpool last weekend, at Bayern, his inexperience was more exposed.

The goal, when it came in the second half, was a cracker. The amount of space Tony Kroos enjoyed was a direct consequence of being a man short and the team chasing shadows. The sending off and an injury to Kieran Gibbs meant Arsenal only had one more sub to make. There is an argument that Giroud, for his hold up play, would have been a better option to bring on, but Rosicky instead entered the fray for the Ox. Ozil pretty much disappeared after missing the penalty. It’s not really working out for the player currently, in spite of Arsenal still remaining in the hunt on two domestic fronts. His early season form seems to have gone to pot. There is a feeling that due to his price tag, the manager can’t really afford to drop him. However, just at the moment, it’s worth considering whether the team might play better with Cazorla in the hole and Podolski wide left. Let’s see what happens against Sunderland.

That Arsenal held the current champions to a one goal lead was due partly to tenacious defending, and let’s face it, a bit of luck when it came to the German side’s finishing. In the circumstances, 1-0 would have been a very acceptable defeat and left some hope for the return leg. However, a rather aimless and unconsidered free kick near the end which saw Laurent Koscielny further advanced than Sanogo led to the defender trying to make it back into position as Bayern scored again to kill the tie. Lahm, now moved into a midfield position after starting the game at right back, floated a cross in that Moeller gobbled up and it was 2-0. Shades of the home defeat to Dortmund, where the team went a little too gung ho. It might have been worth it if the Arsenal free kick that led to the goal had been a little more thought out. But its quality left the Gunners vulnerable. Call it naivety. The feeling after the game was that Wenger’s team still have a lot to learn about European knockout football.

The positives? It was a much improved display on the same match last season. Arsenal were not humiliated. The fans were marvelous, getting behind the team. A substantial enough amount of people did get in early to make the card display that welcomed the teams worthwhile and visually effective. Sure there were latecomers, but not as many as normal. And now the manager can focus on the FA Cup with a little more conviction. No-one expects the team to overturn this tie in Germany, but the FA Cup represents a real chance of a trophy and with the final taking place after the Premier League is completed, there are only two matches that will distract from the Gunners’ league programme.

As for Europe, Arsenal had a go, went toe to toe with arguably the best team in Europe until the sending off, and we could have had a very different outcome if Ozil had converted his spot kick and made it 1-0. However. It wasn’t to be.

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190
comments

  1. Chris

    Feb 25, 2014, 9:26 #46376

    Ron - Not sure what you mean with the Bertrand Russell reference Ron but I can say that as a professional scientist I lean towards viewing the results of robust statistical analyses as 'fact' - beyond that we have 'opinion' that is formed from interpretation of the nuances but to suggest there are no 'facts' is throwing the baby out with the bath water, imho.. Against that background, I view it as fact that Wenger in not incompetent and that he is doing rather well with the resources expended (allowing the caveat that perhaps he could be expending more). Those who claim otherwise are putting cart before horse, or rather inthis case, nuance before fact.

  2. Ron

    Feb 25, 2014, 8:20 #46372

    From cradle to grave i'm not above criticism. I can live happily with that. Im not sure that you can There are no indisputable, unalienable 'facts' in life, only opinions Chris. To assume there are is to invite a fall. I'm an admirer of Bertrand Russell. A few who post on here maybe ought to digest a little of him.

  3. Chris

    Feb 25, 2014, 7:51 #46371

    Ron - I've often been the one of here to point out how much of a limited amount of information we really have about what's going on and have promoted caution on that basis so I accept what you;re saying even if I don't need to be assured on that score! People here will have it that I'm an Arsene acolyte or what have you but really, that's not the case - I just buy into the conclusions of e.g. the Sporting Intelligence report as demonstrating how well he is doing. That is my opinion and that of many folk who like to assess facts. Folk may not like his 'cautious' style in e.g. the transfer market and I am one who would like a bit of it to be thrown to the wind at times. But really, at the risk of offending you again - some thing s are NOT opinion as far as Im concerned - and they are the conclusions of the SI report (which I had come to through independent research before the report existed - again you can't help condescending by suggesting I like to 'rely on' these reports - perhaps you need to think about how you address people whose views differ from your own Ron because you are hardly above critiscism...) and the fact that Wenger is NOT, on blanace, an incompetent manager even if he does have weaknesses. Anyone who says otherwise is basically, wrong. As for Jeff - what really annoys is when he stubbornly refises t face facts - he has been know to back his opinion up with false 'facts' and the blur the line between fact and . Re-read various threads and you will see this - he will now say the same of me, as is his style, but again - re-read and you will see this is not the case (or if it is, I'll happily accept where this has been demonstrated if it can be). Basically, Ron, you lie to think that those whose opinion agrees with yours have come to it through'honest' observation whilst those who disagree are fed our lines yet that is far fromt he turth.

  4. Ron

    Feb 24, 2014, 17:35 #46358

    Hi Chris - No worries. Ultimately footie isnt important enough for me to fall out over as i see it. Jeffs entitled to his view and much of what he says is supportable by what he sees. You, me or him only have a very partial handle on things football, i assure you. Theres stuff that go on in football Clubs that would makes your eyes water if you knew and it throws all of our deeper rooted perspectives into the re cycle bin in many cases. We can all get thorny on certain days to certain posts as you say. There are no 'right' conclusions though. Best policy with those on here you feel you cant reason with is just to ignore them. Its all subjective. Nobody 'wins'. You and Jeff seem to seek to be a winner all of the time. Give it up. Neither of you will convert the other as the raw material youre both working with is too vague. The reports that you seem to like to rely on dont have authors that say theyve found unambigous truths. If they do, then theyre at best misleading to support their own bias or objectives in writing the reports or at worst just plain daft. Im actually an admirer of Arsene in pretty much the same way as i am of certain people in my own profession, but with them as well as him, i can openly criticise methods and judgement based on what i see and feel. Theres no crime in casting doubts on the way people do things. I have it in a lot of my working life and its healthy. I reckon you d love some of the quarterly coaching seminars i do. There are about 40 young player coaches there plus really experienced people and we have 'guests' from Clubs. My interest is the full backs, as i was one. Still am in veteran invitation matches i do. The analysis of the top Clubs methods is fantastic and eye opening. As you can imagine, Arsenal are held up as very suitable for analysis, credit to Arsene Wenger for that in so many ways, however, the critiques are excellent too. I therefore feel at least slightly better placed to examine and criticise his abilities than many are really. Its my view that our Club would benefit from change, thats all. Our orbit needs a jolt if you like, if we are to reach for the Sun again. In business, often change is needed even when the person at the top is still highly capable. Those below often need it, as they change while the long incumbent/s at the top often dont. You can call it change for change sake if you like. Thats where i am with Wenger and Arsenal. Those above him arent changing soon, and AW is the catalyst for them to re appraise, without which we cant move forward. Thats my view. I could be wrong, very wrong. I hope i am really. So could you though be equally wrong. None of us monolopolise the truth.

  5. Chris

    Feb 24, 2014, 16:33 #46357

    Ron - Somehow I knew you were going to pick up on the word 'conclusive' but didn't realise it was going to offend that much. To be honest, I do actually believe that a conclusive case has been made, by independent parties, that demonstrates that Wenger has and continues to over-achieve based on resources expended. That is probably why he's still in his job and on such a big wage - the fact that you (and others such as jeff) don't believe any such case as been made is probably why these endless debates and why I get frustrated and end up being rude. You may not possess the arrogance you describe but you do put forth strongly worded and in some cases extreme views (as in this thread about Wenger's ability) that others take exception to, so it's good you do have broad shoulders. The annoyance in your earlier posts was obvious and by suggesting those that don't agree with you are 'blinkered', that their thoroughly thought-out views that you don't like are 'shooting from the hip' and that their support for the manager is based on a kind of snobbery you do quite a bit to bring it on yourself. Nonetheless, although I'm certainly not here to be endearing I don't want to upset folk so I'll do my best to tone it down, even with Jeff (and if you cant see why he's so frustrating, I suggest you try to put yourself in the shoes of those who try to reason with him...)

  6. EQ

    Feb 24, 2014, 16:02 #46355

    Reading the article about Manu U game just a few seconds ago, it it possible Giroud was dropped to give us more movement up front, and wasnt just a punishment?

  7. Ron

    Feb 24, 2014, 11:23 #46324

    Hi Chris - So far as i know, senility hasnt set in yet for me, but there you go, fire away, ive broad shoulders! Its up to each of us of course, but never in all the time that ive contributed on here have i seen anything said by anybody (inc you i might add) notwithstanding from whatever and from whereever the sources of info people/you rely on or for sure have never said anything myself that remotely gets close to being 'conclusive' about anything about Arsenal that we ve discussed or debated to death. I dont possess the desire, arrogance or knowledge to claim exclusivity on any of the facts surrounding the 'Amos', you and Jeff Wright debate a few weeks back or validity of viewpoint but saw it all nonetheless. It was about as conclusive as a weather forecast for next Christmas Eve to be honest. That might be a disaapointment to you, as you always seem offended by the views of others who dont sing from your hymnn sheet (partic Jeff Wright for some odd reason) and with all due respect, football isnt that vital to me in the grander scheme of life. Each to their own but you perhaps could be helped by lightening up a tad id suggest.You can be quite rude in your exchanges which isnt very endearing to be honest.

  8. Chris

    Feb 23, 2014, 21:43 #46304

    Ron - If you really think the phrase "outperforming financial power" was shot from the hip with no specific meaning, you clearly have a memory problem or are a very selective reader as there have been numerous and conclusive discussions about that which I therefore didn't go into. With all due respect, I think you'll find that you've shot from the hip by firstly suggesting that those who don't sign up to the case fro change are blinkered to it and also by suggesting, in Jeff Wright-esque very weak style, that there is a degree of snobbery behind the support for Wenger. I can't speak for others but I can say personally that if Pulis or Allardyce had was in precisely the situation we find Wenger in now (in terms of achievements, style of play etc), my support would be just as strong (although in the case of Allardyce I'd be wanting him to manage England). At the risk of genuinely shootinng form the hip now, I'd suggest that there is a 'inverted' and in some cases borderline rascist snobbery behind many of the most strident anti-Wenger views.

  9. jeff wright

    Feb 22, 2014, 18:25 #46250

    Westie,Rooney plays for United There is more chance of George Osbourn scrapping tax on tobacco than there is of any of our players being paid more than Monsieur Wonga gets . He dictates who gets what ;and it's never more than his own whack is.

  10. Westlower

    Feb 22, 2014, 18:09 #46249

    @Jeff, As Rooney now earns twice as much as Wenger do you think the Arsenal manager should have a wage rise so that he doesn't get left behind by player power?

  11. Terry

    Feb 22, 2014, 17:33 #46248

    Great performance today. Shame about the other results with the Chelsea players diving as usual and simulating every piece of contact. Martinez pointing out their blatant cheating after diving yet again to earn a free kick that led to their goal. The FA should look into Mourinho and his gamesmanship.

  12. jeff wright

    Feb 22, 2014, 17:15 #46247

    There is no doubt that a touch of the old snobbery is involved Ron with deluded AKB's such as Chris,Amos aka Augusta Caesar ,Mike of the many names and co . It's the old 'le prof' syndrome at work with Wenger supposedly being more intellectual than other more common managers . Our flat track bullies were at it again today as soon as they meet lower opponents at home they look like world beaters .I had to smile at George's comments on supporting Ozil over his penalty miss these views are more suited to ladies netball rather than football. Anyway it's Wenger who should be supporting Ozil and he left him out today - and when asked about the way Ozil in which Ozil took the penalty Wenger said he didn't like it and preferred his players to run at the ball. . So not much sympathy there from Arsene but as you know he is not adverse to blaming our players,the supporters ,match officials ,state off the pitch or Uncle Tom Cobberly if things go wrong. My view is that Wenger should have have sorted out someone else before the game to be the penalty taker after seeing Ozil's previous two lame missed lame efforts and also because of Ozil struggling with his form and confidence. Wenger gets paid 7.5m a year to get these things right .

  13. BADARSE

    Feb 22, 2014, 16:08 #46246

    I admit it. I am the Flying Purple Prose People Eater.(50's music???),and also GOVD. I meant the compliment to you Ron. I'd say it's good to be back but some might get the idea I liked GG music. Good afternoon to you gentlemen.

  14. Ron

    Feb 22, 2014, 14:44 #46245

    Westie - Possibly matey, but Low, excellent man as he seems to be has been out Club mananagment for quite some time.Im of the view Arsene is with us for a couple of years yet and would like to see him move upstairs too. Id like him to do a Fergie and upon the basis that Roberto Martinez's career progression keeps on the same superb plane that its been on for quite some time, nominate RM as his successor. Hes got style,is very respectful and loves football played in the right way, is a wonderful sport and is a very genuine media savvy man who has also learned what the PL is all about already.

  15. Ron

    Feb 22, 2014, 14:29 #46244

    Chris - Hi mate. Yes, but that view (49177) is fine if the Club accepts its bar limit as being 'top 3 or 4' every year, without wanting to raise it to top 1 or 2, which the signs from the Club exude each year in many ways that we ve all discussed to death on here. In football and in business and in personal achievement generally there is often a giant chasm between 3rd or 4th and even 2nd and esp so between those places and 1st. The Club set its own agenda and declared it openly to seek the same levels as Utd were at at the time the stadium move was conceived and chrystallizing. Its failed to do so 8 years on and 3 years on from the primary debt having been serviced. Your expression 'outperformed their financial power' is vacuous. What does outperformed mean? and what does financial power mean? More apt, how are two conflated to make any sense it? Its just an ambiguous and convenient expression 'shot from the hip' with all due respect. Its sounds good in a pro Club/ Wenger way but there s no indisputable substance or meaning to it. Maybe it carried more persuasiion 5-6 years ago, but in my view not 9 years since the last vestige of genuine success. Much of the support for Arsene is founded by a view that people 'like' him and find him urbane and genuine and clever and ultimately a pro Arsenal excellent man. Im of that view of the guy too and always have thought him so. It cant cloud my view though that the years of coming up short have now been exhausted and its time for the baton to pass and new direction sought, which in itself is a sujective view and open to challenge admittedly.The man and the job have to be detached from each other for such realism and the non bias that you call for to take effect. Im pretty sure that if the self same record over the last 9 years was achieved at Arsenal by Tony Pulis or Sam Allardyce, those of you who are blinkered to the case for change would have been hounding such men out years ago. PS As an aside - If Tony Pulis keeps Palace up, hes my choice for coach of the year.

  16. cretinous minority

    Feb 22, 2014, 13:57 #46243

    Wenger is incompetent and should be given a role as shop manager.

  17. george osborne is badarse in disguise

    Feb 22, 2014, 12:37 #46242

    you can tell by the purple prose. 60`s music references coming next. come on george, admit it

  18. George Osborne's Velvet Drawers

    Feb 22, 2014, 11:55 #46241

    @ Ron, much respect to you, but you can find a panoply of life in simple exchanges in a supermarket queue. My point clearly was that if a teammate misses a penalty you try to lift him, not bury him under an avalanche of insults. I understand this is just a viewpoint exchange so it cannot harm the individual concerned, I just put myself inside the man's mind and speak on his behalf. Perhaps to offer a rest from pain-a rest from wrong. Oh, and some of those characteristics I mentioned, you display admirably too. Can you see what I see?

  19. Ron

    Feb 22, 2014, 11:32 #46240

    George Osborne - Respect to all views on here, but my word, where have you been all of your life my freind? 'carry the mantle' , 'carry it beyond his years, 'courage', 'Pressure', 'on his knees'? Good grief. It was a flipping football match for heavens sake. I cant know where youve spent your life, but im truly envious of you if 90 mins on a mild Wednesday night flagged up those characteristics in a bloke for you.

  20. jeff wright

    Feb 22, 2014, 10:23 #46239

    Chris,you are hardly in a position to accuse me getting things wrong when you have never been proven right about anything ! The fact that you distort my comments to try and make them suit your own ones such as , ...everything is going great so why blame the manager... although I think he should have signed a striker last summer... ones . Actually he did sign a striker ,he's called Sanago that's a fact ,but hey Chris why let facts get in the way of your own views after all this has never stopped you from doing so before.

  21. Chris

    Feb 22, 2014, 9:00 #46238

    jeff - I know you don't erm... get things, but it's hardly surprising that folk spring forth with counterarguments when you and your ilk continually come forth with poorly constructed, illogical criticisms of the manager derived purely from your own frustration at results and at not having your nads pumped by Arsenal winning something. What is obviously not true (except to a cretinous minority) is that Wenger is an incompetent manager. Yet still you lie and go on and on in an attempt to back up your ill-formed view. If you were a horse...

  22. George Osborne's Velvet Drawers

    Feb 22, 2014, 8:30 #46237

    @westlower,'You can't beat the memories you gave to me!'

  23. Westlower

    Feb 22, 2014, 7:49 #46235

    Doubtless Sunderland will set up for a 0-0 but it's a chance for Giroud to shaft them - practice makes perfect Olivier! Always hard to get a positive result post CL game but we can't afford to drop any points today. @GOVD, 'a memory stirs'

  24. jeff wright

    Feb 21, 2014, 23:34 #46234

    Bard, you are wasting your time posting anything that doesn't prove that Arsene knows best - even if this is obviously not true. According to the AKB's there is no one else on Earth that could have possibly done better and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.You know it makes sense for a club with the 4th largest wage bill in the Prem and the highest ticket prices in football to have Giroud,Bendtner and Sagno for strikers and when having a chance of finally winning something to only sign a injured 31 year old Swede .

  25. Bard

    Feb 21, 2014, 22:56 #46233

    Westie; it hasn't been made clear Giroud was being punished. The version I heard from Wenger was that he needed a break. Still whatever it was it ludicrous to have to rely on an unproven kid as your back up.The argument that Kallstrom doesn't cost anything until Mid March therefore he's a good bet as a singing is ridiculous. Who cares if he costs or he doesnt the question is how is he going to contribute to our title challenge and the answer is he doesn't. After several months of planning and a month of transfer window he's all we could come up with.

  26. George Osborne's Velvet Drawers

    Feb 21, 2014, 22:20 #46232

    No manager would ever remove the responsibility of taking a penalty from an originally chosen taker. The player must first offer it up. It speaks volumes that Ozil carried the mantle, stepped up to the spot, and now-because of his nature-will carry that miss beyond his years at Arsenal. I was disappointed and frustrated when he missed it, but full of admiration for his courage in taking it. Many on this website want to make a lot of the lack of moral fibre and frailties of this squad. That was a big statement from a young man under pressure. So with this point of view I offer an alternative. As a direct result of criticising Arsene Wenger for letting him take it, the very opposite should be true,that Wenger triumphed by the reflected glory of Ozil's responsible approach. Of course he didn't, in reality it was Ozil's decision, and the lad has stumbled. No true Arsenal fan would see him on his knees. I'd help him to his feet. How many are with me on that?

  27. Westlower

    Feb 21, 2014, 20:53 #46231

    @Bard, It has been well documented that the Kallstrom signing only went ahead because he doesn't cost us anything until mid-March. If he contributes to the team effort in the closing weeks it will then be deemed a shrewd signing. Sanogo only played because of Giroud flaunting club rules. Players have to held responsible for their own actions and Giroud has literally screwed his career at AFC. How could AW have predicted Giroud's actions? Others blame AW for Ozil missing a penalty. It's sheer paranoia! Given that a member of a 25 man squad, namely Wayne Rooney, has reportedly agreed an annual salary of £15,600,000, is AW really overpaid on less than half that sum? Allardyce paid £12m for a lame duck striker & the press are sympathetic!

  28. Joeos

    Feb 21, 2014, 20:44 #46230

    Chris, it is the many geniuses totally lacking any common sense or an unbiased outlook that provide the comedy value in this place. I find it hilarious and recommend it to anyone who needs cheering up.

  29. Prince Eyango

    Feb 21, 2014, 20:13 #46229

    @Babatude - Absolutely spot on mate! We're so close to bagging a major trophy & yet so far away due to Le Boss' stubborness.

  30. Chris

    Feb 21, 2014, 19:54 #46228

    Ron - "but i g'tee you,sensible coaches at junior levels everywhere, far higher and better than me are staggered at what Arsenal players do on that pitch at times." And yet, Arsenal are one of the top three or four teams in the country every year, often out performing their financial power. Whatever his failings, logic tells us his merits outweigh them. It doesn't take a genius to work that out - just common sense and a reasonably unbiased outlook.

  31. Bard

    Feb 21, 2014, 19:01 #46227

    Westie; I agree that we need a good financial structure but it has to be matched by the input on the field. The problem I have its all smoke and mirrors from the club and between the gaps Wenger has managed to disguise his failures. If Alladyce had bought an inured Swede who couldnt play because of a damaged back on the last day of the transfer window, he would be a laughing stock. He plays a 21 yo kid coming back from injury at centre forward because we don't have anyone else but its glossed over because its Wenger. Despite our alleged financial problems he has spent vast fortunes on high wages for sub standard players and on long contracts. He is well known to be a ditherer in the transfer market and he is no tactical genius. We need someone with a different and more modern outlook.

  32. Westlower

    Feb 21, 2014, 18:18 #46226

    @Ron, I believe a new coach will happen sooner rather than later. Joachim Low would be my choice as he comes across as an Arsenal man. Whether AW goes upstairs and become Director of Football only time will tell. I would think the club would want to reward him for overseeing the move to the Emirates as I don't believe any other football manager could have coped with so many balls in the air at the same time. To keep us in the top echelons with some 'less than excellent' teams in that period is some achievement. For sure, he wasn't always able to focus 100% on the playing side during that traumatic period. The demise of Danny Fizman & David Dein departing must have made a hard project almost intolerable. AW will always have my admiration for getting us through that difficult time as it could so easily have gone 'tits up' at any stage.

  33. Westlower

    Feb 21, 2014, 17:47 #46225

    @Jeff, Thanks for not highlighting my error of stating BD (Borussia Dortmund) when I meant BM (Bayern Munich). Spending on big money transfers doesn't guarantee success anymore than grooming young talent, but you probably find out quicker if the player is what you need. Soldado at £26m has today been described by Alan Sugar as a donkey. Bale at £80m+ is struggling, Cavani at £50m+ may leave PSG in the summer. So hard to predict who has the physical & mental scope to progress or how they fit into a particular team. Ozil looked better playing with Theo? Every club has their failures, Ramsey was one of ours last year but has turned his fortunes around this season. Nothing stands still in life. The guy who misses today's penalty scores tomorrows.

  34. Ron

    Feb 21, 2014, 17:28 #46224

    Westie - Hear all that you say mate and to to a great degree its all correct. However youve deftly 'divorced' Wengers managerial decision making esp of the last 4 years from the macro economics of it all. As if his role is totally wrapped up in the money management. His basic team, transfer window, and coaching methods arent complimentary to the back office managment of the Club. Hes become part of that back office, thus hes severely compromised. The Club needs a pure football coach, to consistently put a football perspective to those at the top in my view and if it means such a coach ruffles a few feathers then its healthy for the Club. Their far too comfy and so is he. This ignores Wengers technical deficiences. I only coach 11 - 14 year olds and cant hold a candle to a top coach of course, but i g'tee you,sensible coaches at junior levels everywhere, far higher and better than me are staggered at what Arsenal players do on that pitch at times. Arsene has been a damn good man for Arsenal, but hes well past his best now. The younger bucks are smiling at the fella and patting him on the head now. Even that windbag Rodgers does now ffs! You carefully equate Wengers role as one and the same thing as the Board and their advisers and fail to see (or refuse to see) that hes made some poor decisions over the years both on the pitch and in failing to acquire better available players than those he had from time to time. Your giving him a free ride to his get out of gaol card and in my respectful view, are wrong to do so. Have a great week end mate. All good stuff isnt it.

  35. jeff wright

    Feb 21, 2014, 17:01 #46223

    A bit too much pointing at aeroplanes going on there Westie. However if these changes that you claim will ever transpire under Stan's watch is in my view highly unlikely . You are on the money though regarding our wage policy not having helped things. However, this is mostly a self-made problem that Wenger himself has caused .His policy of filling the squad out with 'promising' young players who have a sell on value, against that of having more older experienced ones, who would provide a better chance for us to actually win trophies rather than just compete for them is still alive and well. And, if Chips Kenswick our chairman was not speaking with a forked tongue recently then according to him that is how things will stay. Wenger's wage policy of paying the kids more than they would receive elsewhere attracts them to him ; while his parsimonious approach to paying the likes of Suarez the going rate turns them off joining us. I preferred Ferguson's policy of paying the kids less until they had proven themselves ,while paying more to top players. Instead of having Giroud, Bendy and Sanago we could have a top striker and and just two of them for back up and also a top experienced GK , with virtually the same wage bill that we now have if it was restructured . Theo being out injured is nothing new and neither is Gibbs. These two are very injury prone and Wenger knows it. It's his job to have alternative options in place . Tbh,I don't see any . Obviously Wenger doesn't rate Poldolski very much but again he signed him as he did Bendy - whom he also doesn't rate - but non the less he kept them on for this season. More poor management from him that can't easily be blamed on other factors. We need a shake up of our wage policy with more emphasis on using it to better effect regarding squad strengthening rather than looking just to increase the bill . That under Stan, despite claims from Ivan to the contrary ,will never happen. All the known evidence suggests that Wenger had around 30 to 35 m to spend last season taking account of players sold and released ,he actually spent 31.7m . Cue Amos and Andy the amateur accountants to bray on about amortised wages .

  36. radfordkennedy

    Feb 21, 2014, 16:31 #46222

    Westlower....aah i see Briar Hill is where the smart money is going is it..incidently i fancy us to clear our heads v sunderland and have had a slice of 20/1 on us winning 4-1

  37. Westlower

    Feb 21, 2014, 16:12 #46221

    @Jeff, Let's be thankful that the commercial side of AFC is run by professional's who know how to manage a multi-million pound business. The running of a top football club can no longer be entrusted to well meaning, illogical, football crazy amateurs (ie. Newcastle). Annual budgets are set & targets must be met as with any successful business, football is no different unless it's supported by a mega rich sugar daddy who doesn't have to account for big losses. Both AFC & BD have sound and commendable business models. BD getting Lewandowski on a free is great business. Success on the pitch is invariably linked to how high the annual wage bill is. AFC is still trying to catch up with the 'big boys'. We didn't have a prayer of keeping up post moving from Highbury and only now are we in a financial position to kick on. Yes, it's frustrating but that's why so many of us have been supportive of AW during this period. Hopefully FFP may make it more of an equal playing field but don't hold your breathe on that one. Success on the pitch happens when the right ingredients of a team come together and favourable periods when key players aren't missing through long term injuries. Currently AFC would be so much stronger with TW & AR in the side, but that's how the cookie crumbles sometimes. You simply cannot legislate for all injuries that might befall the club during the season. Man City are weaker with Aguero & Fernandinho missing. Most clubs are set up financially to spend their transfer budget in the summer & the Jan window is much overplayed by the media desperate for new stories. Very few clubs can pay massive transfer fees up front and some are handicapped by still paying off old deals from previous seasons. It takes special skills from a talented group of people to keep a club competitive both on and off the field. AFC are still growing after the move to the Emirates & remain an exceptional football club.

  38. Kerryman Gooner

    Feb 21, 2014, 15:46 #46220

    Allybaer is spot on about Wenger being past it. He was brilliant from 1996 to 2006. He reformed the Arsenal organisation. But he is out of control. He gambled hugely last WEednesday - and lost. He has been well rewarded financially in the last 9 years at Arsenal but he is gambling with others money and hopes. Ozil should not have been taking that penalty. Only players in form, confident, should have that penalty. Now Ozil has an even more difficult task to recover some momentum. Kosielny looks like a hard man to me. He would have lashed that peno home and who knows what would have happened after that. We need leaders on the pitch and I think Wenger won't buy such personnel.

  39. frankytheswede

    Feb 21, 2014, 15:43 #46219

    its bayern guys, they are better club than us on every level. get real man we did our best, a man down against the best team in the world. forget this effing cup, we must put everything into the fa cup and the league. get past everton and we have a semi at wembley and we are a point off top. that is the level we are at right now we need domestic success. i hope wenger throws the game in munich ffs we have more important games ahead. even if we get past bayern who next lol real psg barca atleti dortmund even city or chelsea would do us over two legs and they arent even near the quality of the top teams in europe. weve had a great season so far the best in years lets not run before we can walk come on you effing gunners

  40. jeff wright

    Feb 21, 2014, 14:51 #46218

    Hi Bard, yes the commercial side of things clearly does wag the dogs tail at AFC, this is what happens when you have business types with no interest in football other than trying to make money out of it running the show.Wenger's ego will convince him that he can tame mad Mario and due to his track-record, and the sponsorship connection, Wenger will be able to buy him for less than some other strikers of a similar ability would cost him.Is this the reason why Wenger did not buy a striker in the last window,don't forget he waited to get Chammy on a free that time when we needed a striker in January.

  41. James

    Feb 21, 2014, 14:45 #46217

    Finsbury Joe said in a previous post that he hadn't missed a spud game in ten years meaning most of his posts on the OG have been concocted on his mobile during tiny totts games. That's unless he's fibbing.

  42. Westlower

    Feb 21, 2014, 14:32 #46216

    @Mike, You're correct in saying BD (8/11) were overwhelming favourites to beat AFC (4/1). After 30 minutes I suspect the odds were very much closer together & AFC would have been fav's on the in running betting had Ozil scored the penalty. On such fine margins are football matches decided. I'm baffled how some blame AW for the missed penalty. All credit to Ozil for having the balls to take the spot kick after his previous miss. He has more spine than some give him credit for & his day will come. @R/K, What's wrong with Briar Hill in the Albert Bartlett?

  43. Bard

    Feb 21, 2014, 13:52 #46215

    Jeff; it would be a nice change if Arsenal put as much thought and effort into winning on the pitch as they clearly do into the commercial front. The thought of that twat Balotteli playing for us next season and having to listen to Wenger's justification for his bizarre behaviour might just be the straw that breaks the camels back.

  44. maguiresbridge gooner

    Feb 21, 2014, 13:08 #46214

    Ron, I've personally taken great pride in never calling them by their proper name or even their four letter nickname who some one once told me they love, but a lot of gooners still do it, there's a lot of names that would suffice but if they have to be referred to the spuds is as good as any they hate that. But as you say no mention of then at all would go down just as well.

  45. jeff wright

    Feb 21, 2014, 12:10 #46213

    That nasty rumour going around a couple of weeks back about Puma - the third best by some distance - sportswear firm has turned out to be true : " Puma, 84 percent owned by French luxury group Kering SA (PRTP.PA), said sales fell 13.2 percent to 698.3 million euros (576 million pounds) in the last quarter, missing an average forecast of 718 million as footwear sales shrank 21 percent." The biz plan to revive or kick-start a recovery for Puma is partly based on the new sponsorship deal with AFC . So obviously some sort of success by Wenger ,other than a 4th place trophy, would be a big help Puma image . Also the prime football 'star' sponsored by Puma is none other than raving mad Mario Balotelli ! You really couldn't make it up. However money never sleeps so it wouldn't be the biggest surprise ever if he is seen running out at the Emirates next season wearing an Arsenal shirt. For Puma this would be a caseof putting all of your eggs in one basket .

  46. Green Hut

    Feb 21, 2014, 11:43 #46212

    Joeos- Yes, if Keown had been linked with numerous other coaching vacancies over the last few years, but we both know that's not the case. You said that 'Keown has failed to get a coaching job anywhere in football'. I have shown that he was offered a coaching position at a Premier League club and turned it down, citing his desire to pursue a career in the media.

  47. allybear

    Feb 21, 2014, 11:37 #46211

    Its quite obvious to me that Wenger is well past it. A rookie striker picked and an overrated player left on the field who contributed zilch! Ozil was always going to miss the peno against his German teammate keeper! Face it folks make all the excuses you like as i have said many times the club needs a new manager.

  48. Joeos

    Feb 21, 2014, 11:11 #46210

    Green Hut, that must be the Tony Adams who was appointed caretaker manager in October 2008 and was sacked in February 2009 after 16 games in charge5Tn. Could it be that Keown did not fancy the job and gave a polite refusal to an old team mate?

  49. Mike

    Feb 21, 2014, 11:03 #46209

    Look at it logically, before the game Bayern were overwhelming favourites and had the better team. To everyones surprise, Arsenal were making a go of it for the first 20 minutes and were even in the ascendency. Once they went down to 10 men the best outcome was to have a clean sheet. Against the best team in Europe, this was going to an unlikely outcome. The dissapointment for me was the fact that the second goal came as a result of a counter attack which left our central defender in a 10 man team in the opponents half.

  50. radfordkennedy

    Feb 21, 2014, 10:59 #46208

    Westlower..good morning mate thanks for the update,as long as it doesn't piss down for 2 weeks my big fancy at a great ante-post price is Rock on Ruby in the Arkle at 7-1,a horse that I won a few shillings on last year Champagne Fever has been declared in the same race but was very poor in race on boxing day I think it was,but I really fancy the veteran Rock on to have to much class for the rest..what's your opinion in the albert bartlett on friday can Kings Palace be beaten

  51. Seven Kings Gooner

    Feb 21, 2014, 10:54 #46207

    Good idea Ron - no more Spud talk, also can the website editor block off nuisance posts, so we adults can have proper debates about the club we love.

  52. Green Hut

    Feb 21, 2014, 10:25 #46206

    Joeos- Keown was offered a job at Premier League Portsmouth by Tony Adams in November 2008. Adams said "I had a positive conversation with Martin and he was flattered that I'd approached him about the job, but he has told me he wants to concentrate on his television work". Give it up, mate.

  53. Born Gooner

    Feb 21, 2014, 10:06 #46205

    @Finsbury Joe - looking at the time of your posts, ie after the spuds had lost to a team nobody has heard of in the no-hoper league, makes me wonder do you TRY to make yourself look stupid, or did you actually even know that your ****ty team was playing last night?

  54. Westlower

    Feb 21, 2014, 10:06 #46204

    @Ron, Couldn't agree more, bye bye Tottering Hotspuds. R.I.P, Lilywhites!

  55. Joeos

    Feb 21, 2014, 10:04 #46203

    Green Hut, so it is Wenger's fault that Keown has failed to get a coaching job anywhere in football?

  56. Green Hut

    Feb 21, 2014, 9:51 #46202

    Joeos- Yes of course he did, I mean what club in their right mind would consider giving fully qualified, 7 time major trophy winning, 43 England cap winning Martin Keown a job? Madness. Nearer the truth would be to say that Wenger learned most of what he subsequently forgot about defending under the tutelage of George Graham's back four.

  57. Ron

    Feb 21, 2014, 9:47 #46201

    Morning Guys. Anybody agree that its high time the name Tottenham and anything to do with it was banned on this board? We re all guilty at times of letting them encroach on posts here and there. Theyre such an insignificant Club, in that there bracket with the Sunderlands and Stokes and a few others. Its a long time since 61 guys and its likely another 53 years will pass before theyre of any relavance again, if ever.Lets make today the end of Tottenham on this board day!

  58. WeAreBuildingATeamToDominate

    Feb 21, 2014, 9:41 #46200

    Enfield Eric; that crappy Russian team are actually from the Ukraine. Things being as they are right now in that neck of the woods, I wouldn't wish to confuse one country with the other :-) - still, Timmy S told me last night that THFC are going to score at "da Lane" - so he must be right.

  59. Westlower

    Feb 21, 2014, 8:32 #46199

    Mostly fresh team v Sunderland. Szczesny, Jenkinson, BFG, Kos, Monreal, Arteta, Rosicky, OX/JW, Cazorla, Giroud, Podolski/Gnabry. @R/K, Cheltenham going now soft, good to soft in places. Follow Willie Mullins and you won't go far wrong.

  60. Joeos

    Feb 21, 2014, 7:19 #46198

    Green Hut, Keown developed media work because no club considered his coaching abilities good enough to appoint him. His experience being gained under the tutelage of Arsene Wenger.

  61. Black Hei

    Feb 21, 2014, 3:17 #46197

    People who have been here long enough should know better than to have a "conversation" with Finsbury Joe. He is a bot, a macro created by some disgruntled supporter. That is the only way he can stay so consistently negative. If we win a game, we were lucky, won marginally, don't deserve to win etc etc. And yes we won many games this season and that is the consistent reaction.

  62. Enfield Eric

    Feb 21, 2014, 1:10 #46196

    Finsbury Joe. You do not stand up to reality. Bollocks yes, but reality no.

  63. Finsbury Joe

    Feb 21, 2014, 0:45 #46195

    Fabregas owes it all to wenger? Strange how his action contradicted his words. Has he made a trophy count of his time at Barca vs his time at arsenal? Sounds like a man trying to be kind about a favourite uncle who once helped him to better things, but a sad uncle who has somewhat lost the plot.....and tried to replace fabregas with denialson. The kindness of fabregas does not stand up to reality.

  64. Green Hut

    Feb 21, 2014, 0:41 #46194

    Joeos- Sorry, have I missed something? Has Keown been a failure as a coach since 2006? Has he managed teams that have conceded 3 goals a game? Because as far as I'm aware he has opted for a career in the media, where his coaching qualifications add credibilty to his analysis. Not sure how this lessens the chances of Arsenal's superb Champions League record clean sheet run that season being profoundly influenced by having a man of Keown's defensive acumen around, but I'm sure you'll find a way.

  65. DW Thomas

    Feb 21, 2014, 0:15 #46193

    We looked good till the red card. Yet, Ozil's miss drained the team's energy. Why? They should be men, but acted like wimps. How can Ozil, who is top class, take a penalty like that? And don't blame Monreal for the rest of the team allowing Bayern to attack all night down his flank. And how on earth do we expect to win anything with untried players like Sanogo? Sure he ran around a lot, but didn't score and missed a golden chance. Ox looked up for it again, and Jack too, but we have too many pampered mentally weak players. They can't handle adversity!!! We should have hired Pep when we had the chance. The worst part of all of it, e continuous failure is we have the foundation to be great. But tactitcal cluelessness by our manager again and again is our downfall. And the Giroud thing with the model is a farce. Can it be true about his one shot against the big three in two years? We need a true striker FFS!

  66. Joeos

    Feb 21, 2014, 0:13 #46192

    Finsbury Joe, Fabregas does not share your view as he recently stated that he owes everything to Wenger. We have some great players in our squad, all of whom have developed to where they are now as a result of working with Wenger.

  67. Enfield Eric

    Feb 21, 2014, 0:08 #46191

    Could have been worse, Finsbury Joe. Could have lost to some crappy Russian team nobody's ever heard of, in some exceedingly poor 2nd rate European competition played on Thursday nights on Channel 5.

  68. Joeos

    Feb 21, 2014, 0:06 #46190

    Wenger the tyre kicker, if you are not a wind up merchant you have clearly never played sport to the level where you suffer a serious muscle injury. I suggest you get down your local gym and get on a running machine set at a rapid pace and keep running until your hamstring goes. Then come back and describe to us the extreme pain and how incapacitated you were.

  69. Finsbury Joe

    Feb 20, 2014, 23:56 #46189

    A day after, does not seem any better. Amazing how wenger has this unique ability to take once great players backwards. A complete lack of coaching ability and tactical acumen makes it pointless to sign players like ozil, wenger should just stick to the sanogos and jenkinsons. Depressing and predictable and will get worse

  70. Wenger the tyre kiçker

    Feb 20, 2014, 23:52 #46188

    Am I the only person that thinks Gibbs should f##king man up an play through an injury .. He just looks like a little boy that doesn't fancy it, sitting there giving it "I want to come off as I'm hurt" ... MAN UP

  71. Joeos

    Feb 20, 2014, 23:36 #46187

    Green Hut, please enlighten us as to Martin Keown's coaching/managerial career since 2005/06.

  72. Joeos

    Feb 20, 2014, 23:29 #46186

    Ozil has the ability, like no other player in the squad, to create a goal scoring opportunity. Therefore it was right that he should remain on. I take it you were not at the game last night. If you had been there you would have seen that AOC was exhausted from the huge effort he had put in. Leaving him on would have risked a hamstring or other muscular injury.

  73. Green Hut

    Feb 20, 2014, 23:23 #46185

    Dave- 2005-06 was the season that Martin Keown was at Highbury taking his coaching badges.

  74. jeff wright

    Feb 20, 2014, 23:11 #46184

    I already know that Joe but results have not been so good since the City thrashing in the league... and we have lost our last two CL games . The FAC could be our best chance but I won't be betting on it due to Arsene's team selections . You do realize also that BM had players missing last night Swinesteiger and Ribery will be back for the next leg. So why did brilliant tactician Arsene choose Ozil to be the penalty taker ... it's not as though he has a great record in taking them... and why when it was obvious to anyone not needing a guide dog and a white stick... that the cheating diver Robbin was running riot past our lacklustre little 42m bundle of joy did Arsene not take Ozil off instead of our best player AOC ? We had to take advantage of BM missing the pen by keeping the score down to 1-0 . Wenger's late substitution of AOC while leaving non-backtracker Ozil on the field effectively meant we were only playing with 9 men.

  75. Dave

    Feb 20, 2014, 22:30 #46183

    In all his years in the CL Wenger has only got it right once.In 2006 when he ditched Wengerball and played pragmatic football.We scored 4 goals in 6 games from the last 16 games to the final not conceding a goal and that was a defence with Eboue Senderos and Flamini.The following season and the seasons after he reverted back to Wengerball and we have been useless in Europe since.The man is a stubborn old fool.

  76. Joeos

    Feb 20, 2014, 22:22 #46182

    Jeff baby, we have lost 4 games in 26 in the league. We got through the toughest CL group and knocked Spurs and Liverpool out of the FA Cup. Great stuff.

  77. maguiresbridge gooner

    Feb 20, 2014, 21:59 #46181

    Ron 49050, your spot on about the hackers and kickers, and limited ability coaches. There was a moment last night (one of many) when one of our players Gibbs i think it was who was chasing a ball up the wing around the area of the dugouts and a Bayern player came running in to close him down, i'd put money on now any English/British player fat frankie, shrek, toxic, st stevie, lescott, just to name a few, even Wilshire would have went for a tackle either sliding or what ever, and taken gibbs out leaving him in a heap, but no the Bayern player got there first and just touched the ball in front of him and kept it in and away he went down the line on another attack, pure class.

  78. jeff wright

    Feb 20, 2014, 21:53 #46180

    What went wrong then against Liverpool away and United at home? Hey, try and be serious now!

  79. Joeos

    Feb 20, 2014, 20:59 #46179

    Brilliant team selection and tactics by the manager from the available players had BM reeling. Superb quality play by Ozil to win a penalty, unfortunately he did not convert what he had created. Very impressive that he was third highest in terms of ground covered at almost 12km. Con man Robben mugged WS and the ref and got WS sent off. They failed to score from the penalty but the outcome of 10 v 11 was inevitable with the quality of BM. Superb defensive effort by the team until the 54 min when conceded to a great strike. Then more immense work to hold BM until a mistake by Kos leaving his position to try to get a goal late in the game which resulted in BM scoring a second goal in 88 min. While disappointed, given his performances to date, I am not prepared to criticise him for this error, everyone makes mistakes in their work So proud of the team and the management. For the avoidance of doubt, I am completely serious.

  80. jjetplane

    Feb 20, 2014, 20:46 #46178

    The perfect low-risk machine. Swims around all season and makes lots of money. What we have here gentlemen is baseball without the bats.

  81. Just get close enough to give them hope....

    Feb 20, 2014, 20:25 #46177

    look at the upside. the business-model is purring away.another good season for match-day revenues with 4 home fa cup draws. new sponsorship and only had to fork out some dosh on Ozone. Get the team close enough to glory to keep the pundits hoping and spending. Arsenal is one of the best business models in football

  82. Wenger

    Feb 20, 2014, 19:25 #46176

    Honestly Kev What is the point of finishing 4th every year?.To fill the coffers of Wenger Gazidis and Kroenke?.We get in the CL to get knocked out at the first knockout stage every year.We are light years behind Bayern Barca and Madrid.We are never going to win the CL.So what is the point? When we were at Highbury we had 4 world class players in Cole PV4 Bergkamp and Henry we dont have any now.Wilshere Cazorla and Ozil are imposters.If Sanogo is the future God help us.From Henry and RVP to Giroud and Sanogo.As i said what is the point?Wenger OUT

  83. maguiresbridge gooner

    Feb 20, 2014, 18:58 #46175

    Wombledom, good point, for years we were shouting from the rafters for OGL to do something about the defence and after all that time when it finally happens he's now let the strike force go to the dogs, we're back to square one, you couldn't make it up. Well it's coming back to haunt him now the way the crap defence did, and sooner than a lot of us expected it would even him as was shown last night, and there's a lot more important games to come yet to prove how incompetent he was.

  84. maguiresbridge gooner

    Feb 20, 2014, 17:55 #46174

    Where do you start? first of all well done to all, they gave a good account of themselves and held their own, for the first 15-20 minutes we played well and were on top. But oh what a chance missed, a £40m player who can't take a pen, not being able to take corners is one thing but a penalty? and if he was as low on confidence as we hear (he certainly is now)why was he given/tasked with them in the first place surely it couldn't have been to help his confidence, in an important game like that? When you get chances like that against teams in a different class to ourselves you have to take them. Thankfully Bayern returned the favor with their miss which was definitely a pen, but a sending off as well harsh but as we all know that's the CL for you and Szczesny's hand gesture as he left the pitch will do him or the team no favors at all. The shock of the night was Sanogo starting in place of the stud, clearly paying the price for telling Arsene lies never mind his wife no matter what spin was put on it, OGL must really demand respect. Yes Kev the saddest thing of all is that all we had to call on to replace him with is an inexperienced boy who shouldn't have been any where near this game and it was obvious, and who wanted to be a postman sad, what would a proper signing in the window have done? he couldn't have done any worse than what we have,i suppose we'll never know and it could well come back to haunt wenger and the fans if it hasn't already. It didn't turn out to be the beating some of us expected but there's still the second leg to come and i'd imagine we'll be under the cosh even more even with eleven men, we had our chance to make things a bit easier for our selves then but as usual couldn't take it so there's nothing new there, we'll hardly be afforded the same chances again. The FA cup is certainly looking more realistic but are any of us really surprised.

  85. jeff wright

    Feb 20, 2014, 17:49 #46173

    The problem with the ’ no red card a penalty is enough’ school of thought is that the culprits who have prevented a goal scoring opportunity get off scot-free if as was the case last night, the penalty is missed. The best option would be to award a goal and a yellow card. If players knew that a certain goal would be awarded for a professional foul preventing a goal scoring opportunity then they might be more reluctant to chance their arm on committing them.

  86. jeff wright

    Feb 20, 2014, 17:24 #46171

    GR, it is a matter of record that the Edourdo ban for simulation was overturned on appeal by Wenger's use of a video to show that the GK flicked his ankle with his glove . It was not overturned because Edourdo was the only player to ever been banned by Uefa for diving - that is a fact. UEFA had a great opportunity to set a precedent for diving but bottled it by agreeing with Wenger that his 'forensic evidence' showed that Edourdo was innocent. So Wenger can hardly produce a video on last night's incident and claim that Robbin is guilty . You don't need Rumpole of the Bailey to work out that Wenger would have a problem winning his latest case when on his previous claims Robbin must be another innocent man.

  87. Ron

    Feb 20, 2014, 17:24 #46172

    Chris/SGRB - i wish i knew who to believe to be honest.I cant imagine IG was outright 'lying' at all as it would cause ructions. Its a question of extent of expenditure and not just an expenditure matter. Its a question of to what degree AW indulges the Board in using money they give him and to what extent the Board indulges Arsene in his wishes and perceived needs in using it or not. The explanation lies somewhere between the two poles, but becomes befuddled when we pay big money for a type of player that we perhaps didnt need. The body language on the pitch can at times suggest that Ozils entry to the Club hasnt been quite as universally welcomed by some players as others in the dressing room whould have us believe.Last nights events just brings the debate to the surface again for me. PS We missed Wally's input last night when down to 10 men. We do miss his input anyway. Lat night he would have been an 'out ball'. Palying with 10 men at the top level a team is screwed without an outball player. Such player neednt even do anything when he gets it. He can just run with it, get the odd free kick and take defenders with him so to give the defenders a breather, albeit for a few moments. It might have meant a 1-0 reverse instead of 2-0 had he have been there. Cazorla (or anybody) have been told to do the same job.

  88. AugustusCaesar

    Feb 20, 2014, 17:22 #46170

    I think Jamie Carragher, believe it or not, put it quite succinctly last night when he said: he's denied a clear goalscoring opportunity but they still get that opportunity (with the penalty). Therefore it seems harsh to send the goalkeeper off as well. The point of the rule was to prevent cynical fouls (the classic Willie Young hack on Paul Allen in 1980 fact). It's arguable that if you changed the rule the cynical fouls would creep back in. It's made defending a much finer art you could argue.

  89. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Feb 20, 2014, 17:17 #46169

    Chris - it was relevant in that it ended it as a current debate. It would be too boring to go into the old historical debate again, but as the great Amos himself said, less has actually been spent in the last two transfer windows than the previous two. Anyway, I shall leave you to the very exciting ongoing debate a few of you are having about what precisely Wenger meant in which interview etc etc...

  90. ppp

    Feb 20, 2014, 17:14 #46168

    I agree it was pretty unfortunate to lose the keeper and concede a pen and have him banned for the return leg. But I still think a red card in this situation is correct. Perhaps an adjustment to the rule that means he isn't banned for other games would more accurately reflect the crime? If you think about it, a keeper fouling a forward just feet from goal is pretty unjust on the attacking team - especially if they miss the penalty which is a lot harder to convert than a rolling ball just outside the six yard box.

  91. Chris

    Feb 20, 2014, 17:09 #46167

    DJ - Can't argue with that. The Walcott injury was an 'eye-waterer' as far as our PL and CL hopes were concerned, esp considering failure to sign striker back up in the summer. SGRB - We'd all agree that there is more money available now, the 'hamstrung by the board' debate has been mostly historical (i.e. it refers to the few years up to last summer) so Ivan's comment was not relevant to it as far as i can see.

  92. jjetplane

    Feb 20, 2014, 17:09 #46166

    Amos - we know it's you!

  93. DJ

    Feb 20, 2014, 17:01 #46165

    Chris/SGRB: Don't won't to start a row between you! My point was with Walcott out for the season and Giroud getting too big for his boots (hence the hotel antics) we badly needed more striking options. Surely Wenger could see this and went after Draxler with the board stopping him taking such an expensive gamble? Resulting in us failing to recruit even a veteran loan signing.

  94. GoonerRon

    Feb 20, 2014, 16:59 #46164

    @ jeff wright - ok I'll stick to the facts. The most recent systemic example to support your assertion that 'Apparently Wenger believes there is one set of rules for him and another set for everyone else' actually proves it did not favour Wenger or Arsenal and in fact was completely against us. You have corroborated this nicely by your subsequent comment: 'You are right of course that it was unfair that only he [Eduardo] had been banned for it by them [UEFA]'. I trust this is sufficient factual for you.

  95. Chris

    Feb 20, 2014, 16:56 #46163

    Jeff 'rarely' - do you have any idea how ridiculous it looks to simply turn your adversaries accusation round back on them without having dealt with their point in the first place? Calling us 'fiction writers' only serves to bring your own failings into sharper focus, my man.

  96. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Feb 20, 2014, 16:54 #46162

    Chris - yes I know. How do I work what out, exactly? My point is the debate is now over. I know your role is scrutiniser of other posts for any hint of Wenger bashing, but it looks to me like you're trying to start an argument for the sake of it here.

  97. AugustusCaesar

    Feb 20, 2014, 16:47 #46161

    Jeff Wright - You haven't answered my point that you deliberately fabricated/manipulated Wenger's quote. Could you answer that now please?

  98. Chris

    Feb 20, 2014, 16:46 #46160

    SGRB - How do you work that out? Gazidis said we as of then had money to spend and could afford big wages. We spent money and put Ozil on big wages.

  99. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Feb 20, 2014, 16:41 #46159

    Surely the 'is the board hamstringing Wenger' debate ended with Gazidis' statement last summer. Unless you think Gazidis was outright lying?

  100. jeff wright

    Feb 20, 2014, 16:39 #46158

    GR, your points are irrelevant to the fact that Wenger used a minimal contact by the GK on Edourdo to claim that simulation did not take place. Incidentally Wenger straight after the game in a post-match interview said that he thought that Edourdo had dived. Later on he changed his mind after watching a video of the incident. Actually everyone knows that Edourdo dived but UEFA were happy to back Wenger's nonsensical 'forensic evidence case' to get themselves out of a holethey had dug themselves into by banning little Eddy for simulation. You are right of course that it was unfair that only he had been banned for it by them - but that was not what the appeal was won on. Stick to the facts old chap is my advice to you - and that chip you are carrying on your shoulder is obviously weighing you down - have enough fiction writers on here such as Chris Wrong and Augusta Caesar to be going on with. Cheers.

  101. DJ

    Feb 20, 2014, 16:25 #46157

    I think 60% of Arsenal fans think Wenger should go if we fail to win a trophy this season rising to 90% if we finish 5th!!! I think he should had fallen on his sword after the 8-2 drubbing at Old Trafford and the scattergun approach to the transfer window that followed. As much as I don't like to read the personal abuse he now gets, if Wenger does act as a screen for our parsimonious board his salary sure softens the blow! Still hope he can win me over with a trophy or two but have a feeling that another transfer window non event may well be the final nail in the well constructed but empty coffin.

  102. Ron

    Feb 20, 2014, 16:17 #46156

    Dont want innvolvement in the red and pen issue guys, but our Keeper came out clumsily and caught Robben half way down his shin before he went down. He did make a meal of it maybe a bit but it could have been a leg breaker. The pen was right but i couldnt see intent in our keepers actions,just a hapless (rather cowardly method of advancing from his 6 yd box towards Robben which proved to be the keepers downfall) so for me the red was wrong, esp as it wasnt a clear scoring opportunity.

  103. GoonerRon

    Feb 20, 2014, 16:14 #46155

    @ jeff wright (49097) - how many players have UEFA charged with trying to mislead a referee by simulation? I can't think of any in recent memory apart from one - Eduardo when he was an Arsenal player. How many examples of simulation do we see in the CL/EL? Quite a few. So at that point when he was charged, there was a different set of rules and it certainly wasn't favouring Wenger or Arsenal.

  104. AugustusCaesar

    Feb 20, 2014, 16:12 #46154

    Original quote from Jeff Wright: "I had to smile though at monsieur Clueless's comments that Szczesny had just touched him and that Robin had made the most of it so it was not a penalty". Concede you fabricated/manipulated Wenger's quote and we can move on. I actually think this is important and I'm going to ignore your hypocrisy side agenda for now if that's ok? Many of you do this all the time and it gets right up my nose.

  105. jeff wright

    Feb 20, 2014, 16:11 #46153

    GR, Wenger’s point was that because there was contact on Eduardo by the GK it meant that he did not dive and so the ban for diving was wrong. You trying to rewrite history will not change this. There was more contact involved in the Robbin incident last night . It suited UEFA to back Wenger’s appeal otherwise they would have had to ban hundreds of European club players every season if applying the ban for diving. There was a Super Cup Final a few days after the Edourdo appeal and there was more diving going on in it than in the Olympic Aqua Pool.

  106. DJ

    Feb 20, 2014, 16:10 #46152

    Has anyone got a valid reason for the continued absence of Podolski from our starting XI. Not only does he give the team balance on the left, Cazorla is better suited as a central midfielder, he is the one player in our squad who is a natural goalscorer. I'm not after a row just wondered if other fans had a view???

  107. Ron

    Feb 20, 2014, 16:05 #46151

    Bard - Ive always had a problem linking AWs desire to follow his philosophy on the game ie younger, developed players playing neat football with the apparent stubborness to try ad do it without flavouring his experiment with tried and trusted quality? Hes surely not a daft man by any means, but then maybe to an extent he is? OR are those above him hamstringing him more than we re all prepared to accept and that hes prepared to disclose? The whole conundrum perplexes me and its annoying. If the latter does apply, any new coach will simply have more of the same as AW gets. The Club should level with everybody, but im guessing there is a lot of political strife at that Club and a 1st class job is done to conceal it within which Wenger operates and his salary oils the process and keeps him silent. Age old discussion territory i know. Wish we had some answers!

  108. jeff wright

    Feb 20, 2014, 16:00 #46150

    The only one making things up is you Augusta . As for what Wenger said in various moments or interviews the fact remains that Wenger clearly believed that Robbin made more of the incident than it warranted. But by his own previous Eduardo 'forensic evidence' case that he won Wenger is making himself look an hypocrite by demanding a different set of rules for others.

  109. GoonerRon

    Feb 20, 2014, 15:56 #46149

    @ jeff wright - using the Eduardo incident is completely irrelevant - the reason why the club so vociferously backed the player and went to town on our defence of it was because out of nowhere he was charged for deceiving the ref and banned for 2 games - when we saw dives every matchday in the CL that went unpunished.

  110. AugustusCaesar

    Feb 20, 2014, 15:46 #46148

    Ok I watched the link you sent. He said "he made more of it". He didn't say "it wasn't a penalty" as you originally claim. And I repeat: you're manipulating quotes to suit your agenda.

  111. Chris

    Feb 20, 2014, 15:40 #46147

    Jeff 'rarely' - Wenger agreed that Scez had touche or whatever) but said Robben had made the most of it: "Our keeper genuinely went for the ball, he touched Robben and he certainly made more of it. I told Robben that. He has enough experience to know to make more of it. Overall, I felt Bayern made more of every single contact." (from Guardian). Watch the interview - the context is clear - he didn't deny Scez touched him or that it was a pen.

  112. jeff wright

    Feb 20, 2014, 15:40 #46146

    Just to clarify things Augusta here is what was posted on Arsenal com after Wenger won his appeal case against Edourdo getting banned for diving by producing a video that showed a minimal contact by the GK on Eddy. Now Wenger clearly stated that this meant that Eddy was not guilty of diving.A statement on Arsenal's website said: "We are grateful that the appeal body focused on the evidence and made the right decision in this case. We were able to show that there was contact between the goalkeeper and Eduardo and that the decision of the UEFA disciplinary body should be annulled." So according to Wenger's own point of law Robbin can't be accused of divingbecause there was contact made on him .And if he didn't dive then it was a penalty and also a red card. Case closed.

  113. CT Gooner

    Feb 20, 2014, 15:39 #46145

    Thank you bubatunde, couldn't agree more. To answer those who stated going down to 10 was the issue, check out the possession numbers. We had a great 15 20 minutes, playing "beautiful" football, but then BM got a hold and we looked like the away team parking the bus. Thank god Alamba (or however it's spelt) is crap, or it could have been very embarrassing. Time for our board to show some ambition and get a manager with desire to win, not be proved right.

  114. Bard

    Feb 20, 2014, 15:36 #46144

    Big games need big players to stand up and that side, well though they played for 30 mins, don't have them.( Per and Kos excepted) The worry for me is that Ozil looks more and more like a Veron, a very expensive misfit. However to blame him is all wrong the responsibility rests with Wenger and his clueless transfer policy. As for your comments on Wenger Cesar my perception is that most of the posts arguing against him are fairly well reasoned. Some of the vitriol is understandable given the lack of tangible of success and the repeated mistakes. My own view is that it would be unacceptable for him to stay on if he doesn't win anything this year. He needs to move on and we need to get someone else to take the team in another direction. BM was hardly a surprise, just another chapter in the sorry decade old saga.

  115. au revoir wenger

    Feb 20, 2014, 15:31 #46143

    where do you start with this one? Sanogo? taking off the ox?not addressing the problem down our left side?Ozils performance was a disgrace we may as well have put 43 million pound in a bin and set fire to it.I have to give it to Wenger i did not think he could make himself look any more stupid

  116. Chris

    Feb 20, 2014, 15:29 #46142

    Mr Lynch - I'm sure you really are a big hard nasty bastard, as you apparently wish to portray yourself. Personally, I find your apparent relish for violent confrontation as amusing and immature as most of your posts here. But more to the point - why don't you eff off yourself if you have such distaste for internet debate?

  117. goonerD

    Feb 20, 2014, 15:26 #46141

    Matthew bazell - completely agree. AWs record in Europe is crap. Even the good sides did bugger all in CL. How good were those good sides? AW must go.

  118. Johhny Lynch

    Feb 20, 2014, 15:23 #46140

    Far better the days when differences like this were settled on the Clock End , North Bank or East Stand (But never the West Stand) .. Now, you got the likes of The Fonz and Chris giving it the big 'un from the safety of their bedrooms. F*cking wan*ers

  119. Andreas

    Feb 20, 2014, 15:23 #46139

    Pep Guardiola got it spot on. Wenger didn't. Post match Pep did say when he came with a Barcelona team which played amazingly yet, didn't win. The man extra was crucial but again Wenger left the team with no outlet options. No pace up front (Gnabry?). How many times when composure and experience is needed how often do our experience players let us down? Too many. I would "rest" Ozil for next 3 weeks. Just having Podolski on the pitch would've made the munich cb play with more caution because they know his quality, the threat he poses. We can beat this Munich team just need the manager to believe it and get it right. In the return legs against Pep's Barcelona, Messi was the difference, as he is still. Munich do not have Messi. We can get a positive result.

  120. Ron

    Feb 20, 2014, 15:20 #46138

    DJ - Right with you mate. I think we will end up 3rd (still possibly runners up)and the FAC would be fantastic. A platform to go forward with at last, that should have been the approach to the domestic Cups quite some years ago in my view, instead of the frequent sacrifice of them on the alter of quite a few CL games that were more or less unwinnable from time they were drawn during these years of post groud shift transition.

  121. jeff wright

    Feb 20, 2014, 15:14 #46137

    Chris Wrong again , Wenger claimed that Robbin dived and conned the ref into awarding a penalty, so what are you going on about? If it was a penalty then it was clearly a red card job .I was referring to Wenger's claims in the Edourdo case that he won that because the GK TOUCHED Edourdo THIS MEANT THAT HE DID NOT DIVE.Now, slowly, Sczczesny TOUCHED ROBBIN,even Wenger admits that,so according to Wenger's own interpretation of the law Robbin could not be guilty of diving. Anyway Wenger was just up to his usual tricks of dreaming up excuses to cover for his own shortcomings.

  122. MARCUS

    Feb 20, 2014, 14:59 #46136

    BABATUDE GREAT POST MATE. LOOK ALL THESE FOLKS BASHING SANOGO AND SAYING WENGER SHOULD HAVE STARTED WITH GIORUD LOOL. LOOK I'M NO WENGER FAN BUT EVEN I HAVE TO DEFEND HIM ON THIS ONE. WHAT EXACTLY WOULD HAVE GIROUD DONE YESTERDAY THAT SANOGO DID NOT DO??? LOOL WOULD GIROUD HAVE GOT THE BALL FROM THE HALFWAY LINE AND MADE AN AMAZING DARTING MAZEY RUN AND SCORED A MESSI TYPE GOAL?? LOOOL. WOULD GIROUD HAVE SCORED A SCREAMER LIKE KROOS GOAL I.E 30 OR 25 METER'S OUT??? LOOOOOOOOL. PLEASE GIROUD IS A DONKEY HE BRINGS NOTHING TO THE TABLE ESPECIALLY IN BIG MATCHES SO STOP BASHING WENGER ON THAT ON. I DONT EVEN WANT WENGER AT ARSENAL ANYMORE PUT YOU CAN NOT BASH HIM ON THAT ONE AS IT WAS THE RIGHT MOVE. GIORUD IS B RATE STRIKER AT BEST SO WHAT HE HOLDS THE BALL UP??? HE IS AS SLOW AS A SNAIL. IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE THAT SLOW ATLEAST BE A GREAT CLINICAL FINISHER ETC. HE IS NEITHER. LOOK ON OZIL I DONT KNOW WHAT IS WRONG WITH HIM. BALLACK MADE SOME GREAT POINTS LAST NIGHT ABOUT OZIL NOT BEING ACCEPTED BY HE'S TEAMMATES. SEE HE LOOKS LOST OUT THERE. IT SEEMS TO BE HIS COUSIN PLAYING OR A TWIN PLAYING HE LOOKS DEMORALIZED. SEE THE ISSUE WITH OZIL IS THAT HE CAN NOT HANDLE THE PRESSURE OF BEING THE MAIN MAN HE CAN NOT. HE CAN NOT HANDLE THE MANTLE. HE IS NOT A NATURAL LEADER HE NEEDS BIGGER PERSONALITIES AROUND HIM AND FOLK ON HIS LEVEL OR ABOVE IT SO HE CAN HIDE. SEE AT MADRID HE HAD THE LIKES OF KHDERIA,RONALDO,PEPE,RAMOS,ALONZO ETC SEE HE COULD HIDE AMONGEST THOSE GREAT LEADERS AND RONALDO WAS THE MAIN GUY THERE. SO IT WAS RONALDO WHO WAS GETTING ALL THE STICK IF MADRID LOST OR DID NOT PLAY WELL. WELL AT ARSENAL IT IS OZIL GETTING THE STICK AS HE COST 42 MILLION SO FANS EXPECT HIM TO BE SOCRING SCREAMERS AND MAKING THINGS HAPPEN WITH ASSISTS ETC. I DONT KNOW WHAT WENGER CAN DO WITH HIM. HE NEEDS TO GIVE HIM A REST AND LET HIM GET HES CONFIDENCE BACK. I STILL BELIEVE HE WILL COME GOOD AS I KNOW THE TALENT HE HAS I WATCHED ALOT OF HIM AT REAL MADRID. HE JUST FINDING IT HARD RIGHT NOW IN THE PREMIERSHIP, BUT I DO GET THE FRUSTRATION FROM THE FANS WHO WANT RESULTS NOW. WE ARE STILL IN THE FA CUP AND HAVE A SHOT AT THE LEAGUE WHICH I DOUBT WE CAN WIN. ARE BEST SHOT IS THE FA CUP. WENGER HAS TO FIELD A STRONG TEAM AGAINST EVERTON. HE HAS TO IF WE GO OUT AS A RESULT OF HIM FIELDING SOME WEAK TEAM BECAUSE HE SOMEHOW THINKS WE CAN WIN THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE HE HAS TO GO THE NEXT DAY ASAP. I SAID IN 2009 WE WOULD NEVER WIN ANYTHING UNDER WENGER AGAIN AND UNFORTUNATELY I STAND BY THAT. HE IS CLUELESS WHEN IT COMES TO TACTICS AND THE TRANSFER WINDOW.

  123. jeff wright

    Feb 20, 2014, 14:58 #46135

    I'm not really bothered what you think Augusta Caesar . However, unlike yourself I try to make sure that any accusations that I make are supportable with evidence to back them up with .

  124. DJ

    Feb 20, 2014, 14:57 #46134

    It is true Bayern were taking over before the sending off but blimey didn't the first 20 minutes where Arsenal actually showed some balls and had a go fill you with some hope for the rest of the season. Agree the tie is dead but if the team showed as much application from the get go for the rest of our games esp at home we could still have a successful season. Podolski and Giroud must start against Sunderland both with a point to prove in what is must win game. As a matter of interest I would settle for third/fourth and the FA Cup does anyone agree?

  125. AugustusCaesar

    Feb 20, 2014, 14:40 #46133

    Well that's not the interview I saw. My point still stands though. You will, and others will, mis-quote him and mis-represent him to suit your agenda. I cannot stand all this 'Inspector clueless / AKB / Le Loser ('Le Loser' - that is so ****!') stuff, it's so puerile. Most of you are grown men with children I suspect.

  126. Chris

    Feb 20, 2014, 14:39 #46132

    Typical Jeff 'rarely' Wright behaviour. Wenger was disputing whether it was a sending off, not whether it was a penalty - go and watch the footage and take note of the context. Augustus is right - you don't care about accuracy, only having a go based often on pure fantasy.

  127. johnnyhawleylovinggooner

    Feb 20, 2014, 14:24 #46131

    You always play your best team-AW shot himself in the foot and the bullit hit him in the head.mad mad choice to play a very raw kid more used to the french 2nd div.It is the worst choice he has ever made in a match.surely a ballplayer like podolski would of been a better choice.his withdrawel of Santi was not much better.I love ozil but surely it would of suited the team to leave santi on.we were on top but BM were starting to find their feet,there is also a failure to learn from mistakes.at CL level any foul will be carded,and chances must be taken or you will be punished.we missed theo's pace and arron's runs,however,if we had of bought a quick forward we would have a get out of jail card and BM would of been more careful at the back and at their own set pieces. That Liverpool player is right-we have a soft underbelly for too long and no one is doing anything about it.

  128. GoonerRon

    Feb 20, 2014, 14:24 #46130

    @ Matthew Bazell - I'm not looking for an excuse, it is a cast iron fact that 11 v 11 we were more than matching them. We had 10 men for 55 minutes - tactically we did the right thing in defending the 18 yard box and letting them have the ball. If we kept pressing high up the pitch we would have run out of energy much quicker and would have been far more succeptible to balls in behind. They keep the ball as good as any team so it's hardly surprising they dominated possession.

  129. AugustusCaesar

    Feb 20, 2014, 14:19 #46129

    Jeff Wright - Did Wenger actually say that? Did he though? The fact that our own fans will deliberately mis-quoute our own manager to satisfy their own agenda against him absolutely sickens me to the stomach. Call yourself a fan. Disgusting.

  130. jeff wright

    Feb 20, 2014, 14:08 #46128

    My view of the impact that the sending off made to last night’s result was that it made no difference because BM were already taking control of the game. We started off playing at a frantic pace and caused BM problems, but we failed to capitalise on this , and it was obvious, well to some of us, that there was no way that we could maintain that sort of pace for 90minutes. 65% by BM showed that they were far the better side when they were in possession going forward. They had us on the back foot and under pressure when the Robin penalty incident occurred. It was a foul on him and under the rules of the game a red card if the ref sees the challenge on Robin as being a foul that prevented a goal scoring opportunity. The Ozil one was also a penalty but it didn’t look like he was in a clear cut goal scoring position. I had to smile though at monsieur Clueless ‘s comments that Szczesny had just touched him and that Robin had made the most of it so it was not a penalty. Wenger’s obviously forgotten the Edourdo diving incident when he appealed to UEFA over it and produced ‘forensic evidence’ that showed that the Scottish GK had made some contact with Eddy - and this resulted in Eddy’s ban being overturned. Apparently Wenger believes there is one set of rules for him and another set for everyone else.

  131. jjetplane

    Feb 20, 2014, 13:44 #46127

    Babatunde - second that emotion though giving Wiltord a hard time is not on!

  132. AugustusCeasar

    Feb 20, 2014, 13:42 #46126

    I also think you can make a strong case for Boateng being sent off. De he deny Ozil a clear goalscoring opportunity? I'd say yes. If he isn't upended he's in on goal. I'm massively disappointed with the result but the team has made huge strides this season and needs our support more than ever. We're still in a good position on two fronts. I'd also implore the fans not to get on Ozil's back. I agree he appears pampered and his casualness is always going to rub up the fans the wrong way but to publicly deride him from the stands will do us no favours. He needs to be told behind closed doors that he has to roll his sleeves up. Let us see if we get a reaction from the player before we hang him out to dry. He's a class act (ok, maybe a bit overrated and overpriced) and HAS been instrumental in our improvement this year. We'd be foolish to hound him out of the club.

  133. AugustusCaesar

    Feb 20, 2014, 13:28 #46125

    Regarding the manager’s decisions. I think it was a mistake to elect Ozil as penalty taker. Easy to say in hindsight perhaps but because he missed his last one in such an unconvincing way the alarm bells should have been ringing. Cazorla would have been my choice. On Sanogo, well, I’m actually slightly torn on this. Giroud’s ability to hold the ball under pressure clearly would have been a better outlet for us in the second half especially given the context that we were playing with ten. But Sanogo’s ungainliness and the sheer surprise element of his inclusion definitely rattled Bayern in the first twenty. It was a bold decision by Wenger and looks like a wrong one in hindsight given Sanogo’s ineffectiveness in the second half as an outlet with ten players. But if the penalty goes in and he’s replaced by Giroud on the hour with us 1-0 up I’m sure he goes off to a standing ovation and the decision is seen as a masterstroke by the manager. I think the injury to Gibbs was also a huge turning point last night. I think Monreal is decent but is a significant notch down on Gibbs and we missed his pace, tenacity and much improved maturity in a positional sense. The substitutions were interesting. I’ve heard the Ox got a knock which may explain why he was subbed. He doesn’t look like a player who runs out of energy and was probably our best hope on the counter. I think he left Ozil on to produce the one telling pass on the counter which may have unlocked the door. Wenger was happy to sacrifice his defensive capabilities for this reason. It’s arguable that Cazorla gives better cover down the flanks although he undoubtedly works harder. Personally I’d have been tempted to replace Sanogo with Giroud fairly early on in the second half to help relieve some of the pressure and maybe release the Ox or Ozil on the counter. It was almost like playing with 9 in the second half because Sanogo barely put a tackle on or held the ball. Not his fault I might add, he’s very inexperienced, especially in this type of situation.

  134. Bard

    Feb 20, 2014, 13:28 #46124

    At this level you cannot miss chances. Ozil's penalty miss changed the game. We may not have been the better team but at 1-0, we would have been flying and who knows what would have happened. Game over with 10 men. Sanogo/Giroud, doesn't make a difference really as neither up to the level required. Criminal that we didn't buy a striker. Another forlorn euro exit. As has been mentioned by others we are so far away from the euro big hitters its a joke.

  135. Colonel Chunder

    Feb 20, 2014, 13:23 #46123

    Not blaming the ref - was a red and a sending off BUT what about Boateng ? Surely the foul on Ozil was a goalscoring opportunity ? plus he should have had a 2nd yellow for another foul after he had been booked (certain yellow if not already booked) - Rant over

  136. BringBackDene

    Feb 20, 2014, 13:02 #46122

    After Ozil missed that penalty the team "Bottled It" and never recovered. 80% possession by Bayern reflects their level of confidence and drive, not the level of skill, confidence is what Arsenal so often lack. However, I did not understand why Ozil was not replaced.

  137. jjetplane

    Feb 20, 2014, 12:57 #46121

    The discussion re the front players is exhausted. Wenger has an answer when Walcott and Ramsay are around and with Ox and JW (Ozil?)the set-up makes a Giroud type a holding player just further up than the other potential scorers. This is all out the window of course with more injuries than trophies football and so last night we have Sanogo (who was going to throw the hat in for life as a postman) leading a line where the only attacking player truly functioning was the Ox supported by JW. Scary to see Guadiola looking well peed off that his team did not truly punish Arsenal for their naiviete at this level. Think they will be full-on for the return so hope is all. Great support for the team and a lesson like this is good for the humility and might again help the rest of the season. Exhausted though it is we still need a striker of the calibre of TH14 up front. Nothing else will do and I am hoping that is the only thing holding back Ozil the potential! main playmaker. I know he has little elbow about him but he really needs to be playing to a standard last seen from DB10. We opened too well and BM knew it and after 20 minutes it was the away team owning the pitch with a great Arsenal crowd happy to be there.

  138. Matthew Bazell

    Feb 20, 2014, 12:56 #46120

    Gooner Ron. 10 men is a disadvantage but no excuse for the fact that we hardly got passed the halfway line in the second half. Chelsea got a result at the Nou Camp with 10 men. If Bayern had 10 men I doubt they would have lost. We're always looking for excuses.

  139. Westlower

    Feb 20, 2014, 12:52 #46119

    @Babatunde, You revealed a startling ignorance of why the options on substitutions was restricted. Two enforced changes because of the red card & injury to Gibbs only left one sub option left. It would have been folly to have made another change until near the end because of the possibility of another enforced change due to injury. Sanogo isn't terrible, he has a World Cup U-20's medal for being France's leading scorer in that tournament. He's made his debut this week against Bayern Munich & Liverpool, that's not the stuff of Fat Barry from the Dog & Duck. Think, before you lose your temper and spew out your tired & predictable nonsense.

  140. STANS LITTLE HELPER

    Feb 20, 2014, 12:49 #46118

    Coming 2nd in the group was the fault of 1 man general arsene

  141. UTU

    Feb 20, 2014, 12:48 #46117

    Bayern Munich came to the 'Emirates' and The Arsenal got 'Moved' on the pitch. Babatunde analysis is bang on. Why no Podolski and Sanogo WTF. The Arsenal will never complete on a serious level and will always get 'Moved' by Top Teams on pitch under Wenger and the current board/ownership. Regime change is required over The Arsenal or we will suffer the fate of Tott#nham fans talking about the 'glory, glory years.

  142. Red White and Disillusioned

    Feb 20, 2014, 12:48 #46116

    I have to take issue with you Kevin about your statement 'The amount of space Tony Kroos enjoyed was a direct consequence of being a man short and the team chasing shadows'.After the red card,the only viable option was to take off Sanogo and put on a a midfield/defensive player,get 10 men behind the ball and try your utmost to hold on to 0-0.You don't know what might happen the second leg with 11 v 11.Then you can try to deny space to both Kroos and Lahm later in the game.The amount of time he(Lahm) got to put the ball on Muller's head was criminal.I know we were at home but when situations change, you have to adapt.I also have a huge problem with Koscielny being allowed to charge up the pitch at the end.His job is to defend.We were 1-0 down and wouldn't that have been better to take to Germany than 2-0.An other issue that needs to be addressed is the way players try and block shots and this applies to all players not just Arsenal.If you are going to try to block,what's the point of turning your back as you have no idea if you are in the way or not(if you don't want to get hurt don't take the wages).Defence can and should be organised and it might not be pretty but is effective.

  143. WENGER OUT

    Feb 20, 2014, 12:44 #46115

    A disappointing game, I said to my mate when Neuer saved from Sanogo that we need to take a chance soon or we will regret it and so it proved. Ozil wants shooting for taking his penalty like that - Ozil would be in A&E every other week if he played for Brian Clough. That said, I think that against any other keeper we would have been 2-0 up in 10 mins - Everything Neuer did last night was world class, how that Dortmund clown gets a look in at international level is beyond me. I find it hard to blame anyone for the sending off other than the fool who wrote the 'double penalty' rule - Perhaps Monreal should have tracked the run, but then we are talking about one of the top 3 wingers in the world here. I'm mostly disappointed because this lets Wenger off the hook for yet another CL capitulation - Although taking off the Ox was the worst decision of the season so far by anyone. Reminds me of the United game when we was replaced on 70 mins by Arshavin - Wenger seriously needs to address his pre-planned subs policy - Ozil should have been hauled off for the Ox - Everyone could see it! I actually thought that dropping Giroud was the bravest and most respect worthy things Wenger has done in years. I think you have been unfairly harsh on Sanogo once again Kev; he did just as much as Giroud (the carthorse) would have done in the situation and overall gave a good account of himself.

  144. Peter Wain

    Feb 20, 2014, 12:37 #46114

    Hardly a surprising result and after the sending off it was only a question of how few goals we could concede. I assume Giroud is carrying a knock as to select Sanogo makes no sense if Giroud was fit. The result is a tribute to the awful transfer policy over the last eight years. Now we have to win on Saturday which will be very difficult.

  145. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Feb 20, 2014, 12:35 #46113

    Full credit to the players on the pitch who battled hard against the triple hindrances of 10 men, a superior BM side and their own manager - who decided to chuck a raw youngster into the biggest match of the season, take off Cazorla rather than Ozil and substitute our best player in the Ox (presumably because it was preplanned).

  146. Steve Fadairo

    Feb 20, 2014, 12:32 #46112

    On the issue of Giroud, the fact that he is at a club (in this instance Arsenal) with designs of winning the Premiership and going far in the UCL, is befuddling. Would Giroud get into the 1st teams of either Man City or Chelsea? Would he even get into the SpuDs 1st team?? The answer is a resunding NO! Just like Wenger did with Amunia, he has stuck with Giroud for too long.......and at a great expense. Is Sanogo any worse than Giroud? NO! I commend the team for the way they battled last night. Keep that spirit up......and we may just about win something this season. The issue we have is the quality (or lack thereof) of the personnel at our disposal. Putting tactics aside for a min, Bayern's players were much better than ours. Added to that you chuck in Guardiola's 'expertise', then one would understand why Arsenal were always going to struggle in this tie. I doubt Bayern would make the same mistakes they made last year, when we go for the return leg this time around.

  147. MAYBE WEVE UNEARTHED OUR OWN YAYA

    Feb 20, 2014, 12:18 #46111

    I can see Wenger licking his lips now. Yaya S will be worth 30M within a year and will be sold. meanwhile lots of effort by the lads, same old lack of game know-how / continued naivety, a few good wins and nice play, but certainly no trophies and more rhetoric about how strong well be next year

  148. GoonerRon

    Feb 20, 2014, 12:02 #46110

    @ Matthew Bazzell - the gulf in class was so extreme BECAUSE of the red card - surely you can see that? In your opinion did a gulf in class exist when it was 11 v 11?

  149. Noz

    Feb 20, 2014, 11:58 #46109

    So let me get this straight. Ozil has played with the BM keeper for a shed load of internationals and hundreds of training sessions and yet he was allowed to take the penalty. Really? You couldn't make it up, the keeper must really have been kept guessing eh! So we are down to 10 men, relief for the overworked defence is urgently required, we are also a goal down and ideally need to nick a goal. Hmm let's see, I know, let's take off the only pace in the team, a player that keeps the opposition weary and a player full of confidence....yep, off you come Ox! So, we have one out and out striker, he isn't the greatest but has experience and can never be faulted for not putting in a shift. He's been a bit of a naughty boy, not footballing wise, and we are playing the best in Europe. Yeah we could fine him, make him run round the pitch in his pants even but no! Lets cut off our nose....... and play an unknown youngster with no experience (no fault of Sanogo's). So, the man who makes these decisions is about to get a half million a year pay rise on the back of a 3% rise in ticket prices. Deserved? Yes you are a genius Wenger but in the arena of managing to keep your job and sheeplike followers despite incompetence and arrogance.

  150. Johnny Lynch

    Feb 20, 2014, 11:57 #46108

    Babatunde - Well said mate

  151. Nick T

    Feb 20, 2014, 11:49 #46107

    In terms of last night I thought the players on the pitch, aside from Ozil, did well but therein lies the problem....'the players on the pitch'. A lot has been said about Sanogo already, for me he did some good things he did some bl**dy awful things but its simply too early to judge anyone after 2 performances only time will tell. The real problem/question is why, as a club of considerable stature, means and opportunity, have we gone into a game of that magnitude with a totally unproven raw youngster as a lone striker....it beggars belief!!!! We had the chance in January to capitalise on a great first half of the season and continue the momentum but its gone now and the blame must logically fall at the feet of one man. No prizes for guessing!

  152. Ron

    Feb 20, 2014, 11:44 #46106

    R/K - Youre right mate on both counts. The Club hasnt seemingly been able or to an extent even wanted to build on its past successes as long back as i recall. Big fish in a small pond mentality prevails. To be honest, save for Liverpools period of Euro dominance, which even then was in a period where middle ranking Clubs were able to make European Cup progression, British Clubs have all been to an extent shaped by the same Euro mentality even United. To the top euro Clubs now, the CL title is a must have. For British Clubs its a nice thought. Massive differences in perpectives and approaches. Yes, will the Club adopt an Usmanov type input and control. I dont know. Whether its bad or good, i dont know either, but its the only way to win that CL and possibly even the title here.Its the way of the game today. Im glad ive seen the successes of yesteryear in the way the Club once was and im indifferent now as to whether the Club goes down the route you mention. Ive never slaked off the Chelsea and Man C model per se, but cant say its healthy. Lets face it too, how many players join those Clubs are players who the real Euro titans want? Very few, if any. Playing football here simoply isnt the best option for the real genuine top talent. Its a philistine sport and ran by buffoons, played often by neandthertal hackers and kickers, limited abilty coaches etc. So much to deter the Messis and Ronaldos from wanting to be here. The game needs enormous top to bottom changes and has needed it for half a century. The Euro game started to leave us behind in the very early 70s (do you recall the German team of Netzer and Muller who dismantled us at Wembley in 72 i think it was. I was there and stunned by the poise, power and tactics and technique of those guys. We ve always shunned out most creative and balanced players in favour of workhorses. and we ve never reacted at Club or international level. Their too arrogant to do so. Its the English way sadly. Arsene knows this and has tried to forge a culture change, but his way doesnt work if a Club wants trophies as nobody hangs around long enough to see it through. Money rules you see. I admire AW for his philosphy, but it lacks realism and is too inflexible to work successfully. Hes a very tired frustrated man im sure. Look at the posts on here where people say we 'were matching' BM for a while. Staggering really. All well intentioned posts, by good Arsenal fans, but so sadly delusional in the extreme i feel.

  153. Tony Evans

    Feb 20, 2014, 11:31 #46105

    I thought Sanogo did well considering his inexperience, and the flak for our lack of proven fire-power has to be aimed at Wenger. Ozil has flattered to deceive virtually all season and his laid back attitude is never going to convince me he was worth £42M. As others have said surely to God Wenger will not field a weakened team v Everton now, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did. Overall we did as well as could be expected against Bayern when you consider the lack of genuine player investment over the years and Wenger's dubious tactics and decision making.

  154. Babatunde

    Feb 20, 2014, 11:29 #46104

    Hilarious. Kevin, just to address a few things. You said: "Credit to Arsenal, they battled valiantly given their ability to attack was so minimal". You make Arsenal sound like Kettering Town FFS. You don't mention that 'plucky Arsene's Arsenal' happened to have the most expensive player on the pitch, and that the Arsenal matchday squad cost more than Bayern's! That wouldn't fit the narrative of Arsene working miracles on a shoestring though would it....Next up: Yaya Sanogo. Now. I think it says everything for how low standards are at Arsenal, that certain people were 'impressed'. Sanogo, was effing terrible. One shot on goal all night. Who cares if he's a 20 year old postman, how many years are we going to use that excuse? I've seen 20 year old with far more talent. He's the French Emile Heskey FFS. No ball control, no technique, no composure, just runs around charging aimlessly. He 'puts himself about'? Well if I wanted that then might as well sign Fat Barry from the Dog and Duck Hackney Marshes 11. Sanogo is put simply, terrible. Which is the reason he was turfed out from a MID-TABLE FRENCH DIVISION 2 CLUB. And was about to start a career in the French postal service. Fancy that. A manager with £120 mil cash in the bank to spend, and all you can conjure up against the best team in Europe, is some pathetic postman. Joke. Next up: you make it sound as though Giroud is the answer. News: Giroud was on the pitch when Arsenal were walloped 5-1 by Liverpool. I know, hard to remember he was even there, right? Giroud was also on the pitch, when the worst ManU side in over a decade, bored us to tears the other week. Again, easy to forget he played eh? Giroud was also on the pitch, when Arsenal were destroyed at Citeh. A match in whichi Arsenal scored 3 times and yet, their 'number 9' did not manage a single shot on target. Can you see the pattern yet Kevin? You're a smart man and a good editor, so you won't need me to spell out for you how effin rubbish Giroud actually is. Again, it says everything about the standards at this club and the small-time mentality, when a guy who honestly wouldn't start a game at Villa or Sunderland; is being touted as the solution. Giroud isn't even as good as Wiltord FFS. What is he doing at Arsenal? His record in matches against the big 3 teams is a joke. 2 years of matches against Citeh, Chelski and Man United and the idiot has managed ONE shot on target in 2 years. Seriously. And now last but by no means least, our very own 'Specialist in Failure', Monsieur Wenger Le Loser. What I dearly love about Arsene's Little Helpers, the AKBs, is that they don't actually realise that the more ridiculous excuses they keep inventing for Arsene, the more they are showing him up for the fraudulent failure he is. '16 consecutive years CL qualification bla bla'. Actually, all that record does, is to highlight how comical it is that a manager on his salary (over £7 mil a year), and with his budget (over £120mil cash in the bank) and with ALL THE TIME he's been given, has NEVER WON THE CL! Showing off about qualification for a competition you're neveer going to win! Heh. I mean hey, why don't Spuds fans start showing off too about '15 consecutive years of Premier League top flight status'? Could you imagine if they ever showed off about that? We'd rip into the clowns and rightly so! Arsene can qualify for the CL all he likes, but all that competition does, is to highlight just how incompetent and tactically clueless a manager Wenger is, at the elite level. He is SO far behind the likes of Guardiola (won the CL), Ancelotti (won the CL), and yes Jose (won the CL. Twice) - yet his salary is reportedly higher than all these guys. It's a sick joke. Last night, Pep was making tactical changes all over the shop: Boateng on a caution, ref might try even it up? Half time sub, put Rafinha on, overload the left flank where Arsenal are weak. Reaped dividends. Move Lahm into midfield and get Kroos to bomb forward more than usual. Get Muller on as Mandzukic is too static and get him to time runs from deep, and use decoy runners. So many tactical in-game management going on by Pep. Do you think Wenger has the first sodding clue about such things? LOL. No chance. He still thinks you're only allowed to make a sub at the 70th minute! He is a total clown and the more ppl wax lyrical about his 'qualification record' the more funny it becomes. Almost as funny as those deluded souls who thought 'with 11 men we could have won'. Even with all 22 squad members on the pitch, Arsenal were losing that one. It's shocking mismanagement. We've spent so long listening to excuses about 'financial doping, injuries, refs, FFP, new stadium, bla bla etc' that Arsene is soon about to celebrate TEN years trophyless. 10 bloody years of this failure. How Anyone can make any excuses for that, when Wenger earns what he does is beyond me. Then again, many muppets seem to think Arsene IS Arsenal, when they need to realise he is merely an overpaid chancer, who wins nothing, makes excuses; and doesn't even have the dignity or the humility to accept he has totally failed and to walk away. Which other club would accept this garbage?

  155. daz

    Feb 20, 2014, 11:23 #46103

    Was it a clear goal scoring opportunity robben didn't look like he was in control of the ball to me on the other hand ozil was when tripped by boateng was that not a red card then ? No other defender was anywhere near so must of been the last man where is the consistency in decisions by the ref

  156. jeff wright

    Feb 20, 2014, 11:22 #46102

    Morning Ron, Sanago is just one of many numerous big thick strikers that are around - he lacks the experience of ones like Demba Ba though . He's nothing special and should be learning his trade at Norwich or some such club. He is not the sort of player that any top club with ambition would put out against a side like BM . Wenger obviously as the hump with Giroud after being made to look a fool by believing his lies about not having that model in his hotel room, otherwise he would have played. It must be said though that Sanago has actually, despite his own shortcomings , revealed Giroud's own ones. Because he has not been missed. Wenger's incompetence is the real reason why he ends up in these situations every season with a just 3rd or 4th place in the league finish being used to justify his 7.5 m wages . On another note the spuds are agonizing over whether or not they should settle for 4th place in the Prem or if they should win the Europey Cup... you couldn't make it up.

  157. Matthew Bazell

    Feb 20, 2014, 11:21 #46101

    10 men or not, that second half was a huge gulf in class. It just shows how weak the Premier League is. We're a big deal in England, but 2006 aside our record in Europe is awful. If Wenger is going to receive so much credit for getting us into the CL each year, then he must also be held accountable for his record in Europe which is second rate at best.

  158. radfordkennedy

    Feb 20, 2014, 11:20 #46100

    Ron..you know as well as I do mate that Arsenal are a top domestic team with good players and nothing more than that,we have for as long as I can remember failed to build on any period of succes and let it all fall away and as a result have never made the step up to become a true euro force,now the club like to talk the talk but will not spend the money on really true world class players we just play at it,whatever your opinion on usmanov is,its a fact that untill we have him onboard and take our club up several levels in player investment we will only ever be the joke club that all the real euro giants want to play

  159. davi

    Feb 20, 2014, 11:06 #46099

    GoonerRon - Completely agree with you mate. I don't understand all this hysteria at all. We more than matched them until we went down to 10. Poor finishing might have cost us in the end but we were always going to need a bit of luck to beat bayern (ANYONE would need that!) and we didn't get it, not just with the red card but also the Gibbs injury. It's just one of those things. Both Sanogo and Ozil were excellent until the red card and it's pretty unfair to judge them too harshly for how they played after that. I think the earlier enforced substitutions limited Wenger's options; Rosicky coming on made sense but I think it's true that Ozil should have come off rather than Cazorla. It's not a major complaint and the manager was gambling on the special talent of Ozil to make something happen. The manager has to gamble at times and this one didn't pay off, but it's unlikely that it would have either way. It was always going to be a tough game but near impossible with 10 men.

  160. artetaiswengerslovechild

    Feb 20, 2014, 10:42 #46098

    why isnt anyone commenting on how totally ineffectual monreal is? can't remember when he was last close enough to his winger to prevent a cross; and when he's taken on he invariably dives in. not to mention ball watching for the first goal. gibbs isn't great, but the spaniard is second rate.

  161. Ron

    Feb 20, 2014, 10:32 #46097

    Jeff. - Agree with you on the GK. The pole is at best back up material and one of the positions the Club should spend big on (even if no other) is the GK. We ve not had a genuine top Keeper since Seaman was in his pomp. Dont agaree on Sanogo though. Whether hes a 'new Drogba', i dont know (Drogba was a one off fantastic player) but his movment is good, his strength looks sound and hes a presence in the box. Deserves a chance to me.

  162. Sam

    Feb 20, 2014, 10:31 #46096

    Went to the Utd game and last night and no idea where our next goal is coming from. Wenger buys these big technically crap strikers to 'hold up the ball' but who hardly ever score, and (with no Ramsey or Theo) midfielders who don't either very often. Ozil's pen was totally crap, but don't make him the scapegoat. Jack was useless too. Thought the Italian ref got most things right. Who could have taken that pen? Even the players didn't seem sure before Ozil took it. He can't have had much confidence after previous misses, so it was an odd decision that it didn't seem decided before the game, when everyone knew Giroud and Arteta weren't playing. The Ox? He was our brightest player, so of course got subbed. They have world class in every position. Love Lahm and especially Kroos. Believe he's out of contract. Might be worth a £40mill+1 from OGL?! Fans were brilliant. Thanks to REDaction for the card idea as it worked.

  163. Jack

    Feb 20, 2014, 10:30 #46095

    We are are top 16 team in Europe no more.The Wenger apologists will come on and blame the sending off.Well they can continue to bury their heads in the sand.The rule is first good team we play we get knocked out.We will never win anything again under Wenger.The annual collapse is under way.Playing Sanogo against the best team in the world proves Wenger is senile.The Ozil signing was a panic buy he was never the player we needed.Believe it or not we needed a STRIKER.But hey ho we have £130m in the bank and to Kroenke and Gazidis thats what its all about,The Specialist in Failure strikes again

  164. jeff wright

    Feb 20, 2014, 10:15 #46094

    Sanago,Bendtner,Giroud the three stooges . Wenger makes it four . Ozil 42m and can't take a spot kick or be bothered to track back and help out in defence . Wenger can't sub him though so he takes off our best player AOC instead that sums up the total incompetence of Wenger's mismanagement. Ozil is the joke signing of the season. Szczney good shot-stopper - poor decision maker another rash error from him same as the one he made for Poland when he got sent off. Obviously he had not listened to Jack's advice about using his brain. We have lacked a top experienced GK for years due to Wenger's bizarre ideas and cheap-skate ways .Same old results every season same old tired excuses. Someone will be coming on next saying that Sanago will be the new Drogba ...... it's easy to make these sort of wait until next season claims or the one after ...yawn....

  165. Ron

    Feb 20, 2014, 10:15 #46093

    R/K - The thing is matey, you, me and all of us know that the voices in Wengers head will tell him that alls not lost going to the Allianz. He ll still prioritize this lost and futile CL cause over and above the FAC game with Everton and hope he ll get lucky again aka the Liverpool tie. His luck might yet hold as there seems be 'something in the air' regarding the FAC for us this year, but dont be surprised if a thrown together, less than committed team faces Everton and comes unstuck. Everton could well be Cup Winners this year themselves and after their performance at Arsenal pre Xmas, they ll fancy it for sure. Your logic and mine would be to accept the fates in Germany, send a scratch team there. Theyre unlikely to get royally stuffed as BM have done the job now anyway. Look how lax they were when we went there last Season. Theyre through barring a miracle. AW logic doesnt work that way though.

  166. GoonerRon

    Feb 20, 2014, 10:11 #46092

    People who make the judgement that Bayern were far and away better than us surely cannot legitimately base that on the full 90 minutes - down to 10 men for 55 minutes, against probably the best team in the world for ball retention surely isn't the correct barometer? The first 38 minutes, 11 v 11, we sbsolutely stood toe-to-toe with them. Sanogo was as big a part of that as anyone, forcing a sensational save from Neuer and showing power and pace. Re: the red card and penalty - I said after the Citeh game that I hate this rule because it isn't denying a clear goalscoring opportunity when they have a penalty. My view is if it's a 'last man' foul outside the area it's a red card as a free kick from 20 yards isn't a clear goalscoring opportunity, but if it's in the area (and a genuine attempt to play the ball has been made, i.e. not totally cynical) the team captain should be given a choice of having a penalty or a red card for the player responsible. That way, the time of the game, the score at the time can be considered, all of which gives the advantage they deserve.

  167. Unchives

    Feb 20, 2014, 10:11 #46091

    Actually a very good performance by the lads, which goes to show again that a few top signings and we can go all the way in the future. Bayern looked ordinary. As for Ozil....£42 million and he cant take a penalty.The striker situation is totally down to Wenger and has probably cost us over £20 million going out the competition at this stage....his pension beckons.

  168. Kenny

    Feb 20, 2014, 10:06 #46090

    We cam make as many excuses as we like but the problem is Wenger.It happens every year as soon as we face any half decent opposition in the CL we are out.Wenger can hide behind the sending off as he usually does.But he has been manager for 17 years and we have reached on CL final.the team selection was criminal last night and how Ozil stayed on is unbeliveable.Its time for you Kev and the online Gooner to right an editorial calling for Wengers head because the tactically clueless clown will be offered a new contract.Its another Groundhog season.

  169. Ron

    Feb 20, 2014, 9:59 #46089

    I dont like all this digging at Sanogo guys. Its very unfair.Hes just a kid. Hes coach put him. He did his best and even now seems to offer more than Bendtner would. He hasnt had games. He never asked for Giroud to be dropped who for all we know, is so riven with domestic strife he mighn't have been better than the kid anyway. Bloody hell, dig at that 42 Mill waste of idle space Ozil by all means (he's not impressed me from day 1) but it was BM, not Norwich (no disrespect Canaries) who he was being asked to do it against. We were beaten by players who are used to and thrive in CL matches. Theyre a Club who expect to get to Finals and expect to win titles and who ensure heads roll when they dont. Arsenal are small time plodders by comparison. But, leave the greenhorns alone at least.Think back to your 1st days in jobs as youngsters, when you were scared to say boo to a goose. Its the same for the likes of Sanogo.

  170. radfordkennedy

    Feb 20, 2014, 9:51 #46088

    I didnt suprise me to see sonogo selected for this game as i assumed that we would go with two banks of four and defend deeply (and try and nick one at the other end) as keeping a clean sheet was imperative and this i feel would have negated Girouds effect as he has to play with people near to him not 25 yards away and as he has no pace there was no point clearing your lines towards the corners for him to chase and buy some time.What did suprise me was the decision to take off the Ox instead of Ozil,its a shame it was deemed neccessary to send off Chesney as Robben didnt control the ball and it was running away from the goal,but thems the breaks i suppose,all in all the defence tried thier best against a team on a different planet from us our penalty area looked more like a re-enactactment of Rourkes Drift at times but at least now we can put to bed this euro la la nonsense and concentrate on something we can win

  171. WeAreBuildingATeamToDominate

    Feb 20, 2014, 9:38 #46087

    Ozil is a fifth wheel in this Arsenal side right now. He might as well have told the keeper where he was going to put the spot kick. Dreadful penalty. A good performance in the 2nd half considering, but Bayern are streets ahead of anything "the greatest league in the world" (copyright Sky TV and Talksport)can put up against them right now. Wasn't too long ago either that Citeh were being talked up as the best side in the world. Not by anyone outside of these shores though.

  172. JB

    Feb 20, 2014, 9:35 #46086

    Wenger made two massive mistakes leaving out our top striker and then not replacing Ozil after the red card leaving 'Miss it' Ozil on the pitch meant we were down to nine men.

  173. Don Froth

    Feb 20, 2014, 9:28 #46085

    Whether he missed the pen or not, Wenger is ignoring quite how badly Ozil is playing at the moment! its a serious issue that needs addressing double lively!

  174. RDT - 4

    Feb 20, 2014, 9:22 #46084

    I think Giroud prefers playing in the hole.

  175. Chris

    Feb 20, 2014, 9:18 #46083

    Ah dimmums. We lost a game last night and now Mr Lynch hopes Sunderland beat us on Saturday. Sad pathetic lickle child.

  176. John F

    Feb 20, 2014, 9:13 #46082

    The players worked their socks off but poor decisions cost us.Giroud playing keepy uppy in the hotel room cost him his place.Going loco now we have Sonogo was not quiet ready for this match and surely the best striker in the world would have been a slightly better option.Szczesny's poor foul. The decision to take off an in form Cazorla instead of a dejected Ozil did not make sense to me.Wenger said that Ozil was shaking his head for ten minutes after his penalty miss and it affected his game.If he left him on so as to not destroy his confidence I am afraid it backfired. With the crowd and flamini barking at him because of his poor efforts his mood did not improve.It would have been better to take him off put an arm round him and give him a rest and show him pictures of Girouds bit on the side. He looks knackered.Ozil's confidence has now completely gone, it was like we were playing with 9 men and a churchill nodding dog.The free kick at the end,what was the otherwise excellent Kos doing up there. Did he think I know I will run up into the box then if the move breaks down I will run back Bolt style to rescue our defence. Then after the game because I have so much energy I will help the groundsmen cut the grass.

  177. chris dee

    Feb 20, 2014, 8:53 #46081

    Fantastic management by Arsene allowing Ozil to complete a hat trick of missed wimpish penalties. Bayern,man for man were a class above us and showed how far we are behind the real giants of Europe.We are four world class players short of coming anywhere near winning the Champions League and unfortunately players short of winning the Premiership.We have a chance in the FA Cup,but even if we can beat Everton,look at City,man for man better players. It will take a monumental effort just to win the FA Cup never mind the Champions League. Sadly this season should be the 'enough is enough'with Arsene if no trophy is won.A great manager,a good man but at the end of the day clubs are in competitions to win them. Up to now we have reluctantly understood the problems of moving to the Emirates and we have reluctantly understood the selling of players but that understanding has now gone. We have the stadium ,we have the money ,we have the fan base but only regular trophies,as with all big clubs (we are still hanging in there) will now suffice. But don't forget the ambition of a club starts in the boardroom.

  178. Moscow Gooner

    Feb 20, 2014, 8:51 #46080

    Not much to be said about the game: Sanogo was a gamble that didn't come off; the defence - under intense pressure for 50 minutes against 'the best team in the world' - performed well; but why no Podolski?? Surely the guy had a huge amount to prove against Bayern? Support was superb throughout: amused by some of the media comments today about the marvellous atmosphere 'created by the Bayern fans'. I could hardly hear them! Proves that English support - when standing throughout - can create an atmosphere better than the Bundesliga.

  179. 6OONER PETE

    Feb 20, 2014, 8:39 #46079

    Best we've played all season until the Ozil penalty miss which affected the players adversely. Then it became same old story with Gibbs injury eventually leading to a mistake from Monreal and subsequently the red card.Shame as I felt we were the Arsenal of old for about ten minutes! I wonder what sort of team Wenger will put out for the Everton game now. Regarding the red card rule,it could be changed so that if there is a foul in the box it should be a penalty, but if a goal would have definitely been scored (like the Henchoz incident in the FA cup final) a penalty goal could be awarded (like a penalty try in rugby). The only time a player would be sent off would be if a goal scoring chance was stopped outside the box. This would result in a red card and a free kick from where the incident took place.It would still sometimes be difficult to decide if a goal WOULD have been scored but no more difficult than it is now for referees to decide on a red card or not. Al least it would leave games as a proper spectacle for spectators.

  180. davi

    Feb 20, 2014, 8:34 #46078

    There were two turning points before the red card. The penalty miss and the Gibbs injury. We were on fire before then and really had them rattled. I suspect Bayern might have sneaked a win anyway, such is the quality they have, but I don't think Wenger did anything wrong in his approach to the game. Before the red card Sanogo was as good as anyone for us. He was winning the ball, holding it up and very nearly scored - forced a brilliant save from Neuer imo. The luck went against us, basically. It was a penalty and under the rules it was a red, but it's another example of why that rule needs to change. If we can play with the intensity we showed prior to the red card for the rest of the season then we'll run City and Chelsea close for the title. Thought we were excellent before that.

  181. Wombledon

    Feb 20, 2014, 8:32 #46077

    We played the best team in the world with a kid alone as stroker. We have no good strikers. Le French Oaf and 3am playboy with worst conversion of chances statistically in the premiership, a kiddie Yaya thrown in the deep end against best team in the world who's only had one premiership start, and f*ckface Bendnter. For years we had a fantastic attack but crap defence, now we have finally got a good defence but no attack. Le Failure Specialiste makes us look like a joke once again.

  182. smithy

    Feb 20, 2014, 8:31 #46076

    I can't blame ozil for missing a penalty - although his technique was really poor, howeverer I do blame him for not putting a shift in when we were down to 10.Time and time again he failed to track the runner in behind him in our left back channel.No player is bigger than the club,I would bench him for the Sunderland club. As for Sanogo I thought he tried his hardest but you can see he is still raw.Again the lack of a striker signing in the past 2 windows is showing.Good effort by the club and fans,we need to be realistic and prioritise the FA cup selection over the long shot of the Bayern return.

  183. dazzy90

    Feb 20, 2014, 8:23 #46075

    Once again the clueless clown can't get past top class opposition. Fair enough, we only had 10 men, but we also really only had 10 before the red card. Sanogo - really??? For a team chasing a title, champions league progression, and an FA cup...?!!! WTF are you on Wenger?? You watch, Everton in FA cup he'll play a weakened side with one eye on the return match in Munich, of which we have no chance. I only hope he plays a full strength team against Everton and goes balls out for that cup as it's the only thing we have a chance of winning this season. Ramsey - hurry the f**k up and return!!! We miss your drive and goals badly.

  184. Fishpie

    Feb 20, 2014, 8:21 #46074

    There's still much to fight for this season and the team are in a good position in the two domestic competitions. Even in the champions League, an early goal from Arsenal in Munich would put the English cat amongst the pigeon Germans. But there are persistent indications that despite a much improved consistency and off the ball game in this Arsenal team, when we play the best teams or teams in good form we are found wanting. I know we had 10 men for most of the match last night and we were playing the best team in Europe but Jesus we were penned back inside our penalty area to such an extent it was dispiriting. We were opened up easily especially on the Monreal/Ozil side. Liverpool too cut through us with ease in both recent matches. Only Kos shows the kind of intensity that's needed. He's always right on top of his striker, he chases down with pace and intent when in midfield and, last night, got forward to worry the Germans in a way no other Arsenal player could manage. He is my player of the season and frankly we need more of his attitude and less of Ozil's. Ozil is a great player when in a team of great players who work hard and who support each other on the ball. It's easy to imagine how he would have been fine in a Bayern team or a Barca team who never leave a player in possession isolated. But at Arsenal we give the ball away and we don't play in tight packs. I apologise for being so pessimistic.

  185. Ron

    Feb 20, 2014, 8:20 #46073

    The lads gave it a good go and fought hard when down to 10 men. I thought the pen we had was cleverly got by Ozil and in many ways his miss would be deemed justice by Bayern fans. Their pen too was created by overreaction as AW rightly said. Having said all this, BM were a class apart from us. Bigger guys, far more tactically adept and far more professional than Arsenal. I suspect they ll win it again. No disgrace for us and no embarrassment either, but Arsenal are a million miles away from challenging the best of Europe. In fact, the best teams on the continent have sailed well beyond and are over the horizon from PL teams nowadays. No point dressing up last night by a plethora of what 'might have beens', we were well beaten by an expert team and Coach.

  186. fozzys mate

    Feb 20, 2014, 8:20 #46072

    To start with after two misses from two non efforts Ozil should never take a penalty for us again. With or without Giroud we do not have enough up front to win the league or progress further in europe. However it was a positive display and let's hope we now forge on on the domestic front. Even if we lose out in the league and cup we need to come close in both to know what it feels like when every game is a cup final. A crying shame that the dough stayed in the bank durig the window given how short we now look up front and how much we miss our goalscoring midfielder, who as ever with us has gone from being out for 3 weeks to 12.

  187. Tell

    Feb 20, 2014, 8:18 #46071

    Totally OUTCLASSED AGAIN,and it was a stonewall sending off !!! Soon to be 9 years ;-)

  188. Spike

    Feb 20, 2014, 8:05 #46070

    You can't blame the ref for the sending off but there must be a way to get rid of this unfair rule. Two nights running the game has been ruined by a pen/red card. The only losers are the fans as the game instantly turns from a proper spectacle to one team trying to hang on with ten men. The penalty is a fair punishment for preventing the opportunity. Adding the red just denies the fans a proper contest. Enjoyed the performance and effort but the team, squad and manager still came up short against the best. Why we did not offer that £24 million to Pep I will never understand.

  189. Declan Burke

    Feb 20, 2014, 8:04 #46069

    Frustration is the key word for last night and of course the last 9 years, and while we may well at last land a trophy this season, the sense of frustration is increasing, there isn't a lot wrong in losing to the champions of europe but the whole striker situation is unforgiveable, Wenger is paying for his negligence in this department now, Playing a raw kid against the supreme club outfit on the planet ? inexcusable.

  190. Westlower

    Feb 20, 2014, 8:03 #46068

    Until the red card it was hard to tell which team were the current European champions. That was the best start we've made in a game this season. Ozil converting the penalty for 1-0 and who knows what could have followed. We were rampant until that moment. No dispute on a penalty award against Szczesny but to be given a red card + missing the next leg is far to severe a punishment for a foul. The game was over at that point as BD showed their class in keeping the ball for the next hour. Ozil's confidence is at an all time low and he desperately needs a match wining performance to give himself a boost. Ox looked our most dangerous attacker and fingers crossed he remains injury free for the rest of the season. We continue to miss Ramsey & Theo more than the 'rested' Giroud. Finally a word of praise for the Gooners who gave brilliant support, as it's not easy staying vocal when playing with 10 men against the best side in the world. The Emirates is gradually developing a life of it's own.