What value integrity?

Reflections on a recent spat



What value integrity?

Arsene knows… it’s all a wind-up


Recently Jose Mourhino created a furore with a comment directed at Arsene Wenger. It was a storm in a teacup, but one which signified much to me. This insolent remark never developed into a spat, which is the most it ever could have become, because the integrity displayed by the recipient of the barb - Wenger, never gave the clown - Mourhino, the ammunition to offer a diatribe, or engage in a tit for tat exchange. The absence of a reactive response meant the voracious appetite for scandal that the media possesses was nullified. They had no material to work with. My take on the episode is simple. This man is boorish, arrogant, egotistical and puffed-up. To make an announcement like this is completely in character. He is not known as the 'Portuguese Peasant' without reason. Arsene's integrity and attitude is also easily recognisable. That attitude also defines the man. So, we have a 'non story', which the media desperately wanted to breath life into, just to sell copy. Is it any wonder that Arsene Wenger isn't on the Xmas card lists of the newspaper editors? He refuses to play their vacuous games.

The thing is, so many others want to play this silly game. A child brought up on a certain diet, enjoys the foodstuffs that another might reject. Our society has been spoon fed gossip, scandal and unenlightened drivel by those in power for a long time. The advertising men, governments, media all use the same beguiling instruments to play a similar tune, and we dance to it. The 'dumbing down' is omnipresent. Many people began 'talking up' Mourhino. Singing his praises when they would be best employed rejecting his behaviour as that of a vandal, a destroyer. Sadly they didn't, and this is the damaging point beyond his spiteful and foolish statement.

Through the years people have offered up unconnected statements to bolster a weak argument. 'At least the Krays were good to their mother.' So was my brother and I, but we never went around hurting people for personal gain. 'At least Hitler got the trains to run on time.' Again, I am scrupulously punctual yet resisted murdering six million innocents as an aside, though am sure they appreciated it with their 'on time train journey' to the death camps. Mourhino's track record is unconnected with his rude remark. Yes it is within the parameters of football, but that is a flimsy excuse, and at best has an extremely tenuous connection. A neighbour's untidy front garden is within the parameters of a desire for an aesthetic and harmonious neighbourhood, but doesn't give me the right to be rude and insulting to them. Yet I am sure many today would argue with that view; therein lies the crux of the matter.

Why do Arsenal supporters (!??!) engage in such a past time? Yet again, led as sheep, they have been seduced into believing it's the way to go. It is normal and acceptable behaviour. It isn't, and never shall be! Why do they try to use the situation as a 'stick to beat' Arsene with? It's because they have a secret agenda, even if that secret is an 'open' one. They use the premise that 'the enemy of my enemy, is my friend'. Then try in unfair, certainly invalid ways of justifying their claims. Then we have a slapstick moment when the more balanced side offers their rebuttals, and they along with Wenger reap the whirlwind of reprisals from the original perpetrators. Very odd behaviour, but commonplace. As an observer of life I find the situation very typical. These reactions are not at all surprising, though I constantly remain amazed at the ineptitude of some to see through a tissue of manipulation by those that rule. I guess that's why they rule.


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148
comments

  1. Amos

    Mar 03, 2014, 10:25 #46849

    The next day and you still have to look in? :) Is there a time limit then SGRB? Why is the data over 5 years and not 10 years? Data over the last 3 years has to be more current! It covers the period City have been strongest and since Kroenke took control. Far more logic involved than your arbitrary figure. I'd already had the last word a few posts back and you've been blustering ever since. But it's fun watching you posting desperately without managing to say anything at all - other than feigned indignation and bogus attempts to deflect from the issue. Your need to extinguish anything and anyone suggesting even the mildest positive tone is genuinely amusing to witness. Yeah - we're competing with the big boys alright - even if it hasn't always been on level terms - and we're continuing to do so. It's not that hard to see it - unless you're determined not to in which case your inclination - your need in fact - will be to immediately dispute anything positive.

  2. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Mar 03, 2014, 9:43 #46847

    The next day and you want to it keep going, Amos? The data is over 5 years. You've shown your true colours in this thread, and anyone that cares to (probably no one) can draw their own conclusions regarding our exchanges. So, others have suggested you shouldn't be indulged and I shall do so no longer. Now, go on, have the last word; you know you need to.

  3. Amos

    Mar 03, 2014, 7:21 #46840

    @SGRB. You've seen through nothing. You're too busy building artificial walls of imaginary insults in the vain hope that it can protect a view that you are so desperate to cling to. I don't dislike your data. Though it is more assertion than data as the record of those teams over the last 3 years isn't significantly better than ours. In one case it is worse. Your data supports my point better than it does yours. As for my head it is still firmly on my shoulders despite the attempts of some malcontents to metaphorically sever it not wishing to hear anything that might have the slightest note of positivity about the club or its officials. It just amuses me to see how desperate some are to wallow in the negative. It's worth persisting with just for the entertainment value.

  4. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Mar 02, 2014, 23:19 #46837

    Oh dear, Amos. You've spoken much of transparency, but your veneer of objectivity has now been seen through. Your unravelling verbage confirms what this thread has demonstrated: You are as wedded to your views as anyone else. You select from the available data to reinforce those views. And if anyone else selects from the available data something you don't like, you go ad hominem. You, wilfully or otherwise, didn't grasp my last comment, otherwise you wouldn't have misconstrued and therefore have the nonsensical notion my notion was nonsensical. Like Ron says, your head's been scythed off but you keep jabbering as it rolls across the floor.

  5. Amos

    Mar 02, 2014, 21:02 #46831

    @SGRB. I have already countered it to my satisfaction. ;) You're running around in ever diminishing circles. You clearly coveted, revered, appreciated, respected, venerated, liked, loved, desired or any similar choice of verb though none of them will enable you to honestly run away from the nonsensical notion that teams with a better head to head record (if in fact they really are) against the big boys are competing better against them than we are despite consistently finishing below us. The problem is that you can't counter that point - not even to your own satisfaction really - no matter how many desperate diversions you now attempt to construct.

  6. maguiresbridge gooner

    Mar 02, 2014, 20:26 #46827

    Moscow Gooner, good shout mate, unfortunately the jury has been out to may for the last eight seasons with always the same verdict, and with the same old Lawyer still representing us we can safely say the same verdict will be returned again this season.

  7. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Mar 02, 2014, 18:49 #46818

    And you can't counter that point, can you Amos, however technically incorrect you deem it of me to raise it. Try what I'm saying this way: Apart from the hypocrisy, there is the sheer absurdity of suggesting I have a 'reverence' for not one, not two, but three other PL clubs. Can you see now how stupid that sounds? Stacking their 'big boy' record against ours is a mechanism for demonstrating we are below par in this regard. It's got nothing to do with trying to make out those teams are 'better' than us - of course they're not! And it's highly relevant to competing. We don't beat the big boys and we don't win the big matches, here or in Europe. It stops us winning stuff. Being eternally 'sanguine' about finishing 3rd and 4th, I do realise you're not going to recognise the issue.

  8. Amos

    Mar 02, 2014, 18:35 #46817

    @SGRB. As you dealing with the issue to your satisfaction doesn't need anything more from you other than that you put fingers in your ears and hands over your eyes such satisfaction won't make as great a demand on you to justify your argument as it should to others. You've failed to make your point so you've taken the disingenuous route of changing the point to an even more bogus one in the hope that you can fare better with that and trying to mask that by claiming that I'm the one wriggling. You really are that transparent. :)

  9. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Mar 02, 2014, 18:10 #46815

    Amos, I already dealt with the 'big boys' issue to my own satisfaction - we have different definitions of competing. Your twice-made accusation of 'reverence' is what is now at hand, and for the second time today you're attempting to wriggle out of something. You've done exactly what you condemn others for doing - taking another's use of a certain fact to make a certain point and using it to make a judgment on them. There's your hypocrisy, laid bare for all to see (though everyone else is on the other thread now). There's nothing you can say to escape from that particular 'fact'.

  10. Amos

    Mar 02, 2014, 17:03 #46810

    @SGRB. You're making a straw man argument as though the use of the word reverence is the point at issue. You do so because you're unable to reinforce your big boys argument any other way. I've dealt with the relevance (and the reverence) of your fact about the head to head record against the big boys of those teams that consistently end up below us which you're unable to answer in any way relevant to the original point. As I said early - you are all too transparent.

  11. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Mar 02, 2014, 16:20 #46803

    My point, Amos, is that you are accusing me of showing 'reverence' for pointing out a fact. If I did the same to you, you would object - as you are doing, though here I have been talking hypothetically, as you should be able to see. Why then do you feel you can fairly accuse me of 'reverence' for introducing a fact concerning head to head records? I thought you were all for arguing from the facts? Could it be that you just didn't 'like' that fact and snapped back with your 'reverence' jibe, and are now seeking to justify it? You've been caught out here, Amos, but your pride will stop you from conceding the point.

  12. Amos

    Mar 02, 2014, 15:59 #46795

    @SGRB. Show me where I have shown reverence for Wenger's points per pound stat before suggesting you could level that accusation fairly. The only reference I recall is pointing to an independent report from Sporting Intelligence which came to that conclusion. Even then I also pointed out that the same report contained some ammunition for those critical of Wenger. The 'pounds per point stat' is a straw man reference most often dismissively made by those unrelentingly opposing anything that might lean towards supporting Wenger or the board. There's a much greater consistency here ready to dismiss anything said or done by Wenger or the present board without tolerance of any other opinion and to lump together anything that doesn't follow that preferred pattern in the belief that it can then be dismissed purely because it suggests support. Transparently that's what you're attempting to do now. As for fighting with the big boys our head to head record does not invalidate the point that we are competing and competing more consistently than others despite whatever head to head records might say.

  13. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Mar 02, 2014, 14:40 #46791

    Amos, it's no different to me saying 'you hold reverence for Wenger for his points per pound stat'. You either believe such comments are fair across the board or you don't. We are talking about your consistency here. Which is it, in your case? And for the last time - it is obviously 'normal' to expect our head to head record against the big 3 to be inferior. However, the fact that it is so poor, in fact inferior to those lesser clubs I mentioned, indicates there is a problem there. That is all.

  14. Amos

    Mar 02, 2014, 13:55 #46783

    @SGRB. You hold reverence for those teams for their head to head record. It's not unfair to point that out but you're being oversensitive - or more likely looking for a straw man. I've simply made the point that we've competed with the big boys in the process of finishing 3rd or 4th. The dominance of the 'money' clubs in terms of points totals is clear enough but difficult for some to understand what has happened to the competitive landscape in that time which explains that dominance for the greater part. Not that everyone wants to understand it of course. As for revering Wenger I'm pretty certain you wouldn't find any post of mine here that could genuinely justify such a claim. Though it's a tactic the malcontents will adopt by default, and one you haven't been completely able to resist I see, towards anyone even mildly supportive. Whether you can see it or not there's the real hypocrisy in these forums for you. @greenhut. Yeah - I'm content that the context is there for those who want to see it. Though it won't stop all of you from wriggling away from it. :)

  15. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Mar 02, 2014, 12:19 #46773

    Seems to come down to different definitions, Amos, there's no argument for you to win. You think we've competed with the big boys by finishing 3rd or 4th, and well off the points total of the winner, every season. I don't view that as competing. And that I point out the facts of head to head records against the 'big 3' means that, in your eyes, I 'seemingly revere' those teams with a better record than ours just invalidates your claim to a primary interest in evidence based argument. It's just a pathetic little dig of the sort you claim to be above. If you were accused of 'seemingly revering' Wenger, you would reply no, I use evidence based argument. Do you see your hypocrisy?

  16. Green Hut

    Mar 02, 2014, 12:08 #46769

    Amos- Luckily everyone can read our conversation in it's full context, but you keep wriggling if you want to.

  17. billthered

    Mar 02, 2014, 12:06 #46767

    When the media suck up to Mourhino he should always be reminded that he is a lier,was'nt him that said he was in Portugal when he was in fact tapping up Ashley Cole in a hotel in London,and as far as that comment about Wenger being a voyeur he should have had the book thrown at him.He in my opinion is a worm who would not front up someone in the street.

  18. Amos

    Mar 02, 2014, 11:51 #46766

    @greenhut. You've missed the conditional 'if' when claiming I made something up. You can see how easy it is to present something differently without its full context. Sure everyone understood who Wenger was referring to. That was 'every other manager', rather than anyone specifically, who tended to rule themselves out of a title race that they were clearly fully involved in whether in the present, past or future. It was a general response to a general question that others have adopted in the specific to suit a particular purpose. Much as you're doing now. @SGRB. It's no great surprise that our head to head record over a period of time isn't as good as those who have consistently finished above us but, as I've demonstrated, it isn't significant in terms of winning the title in every season nor is it always significant in terms of league placing (even in the seasons when our head to record has been good). The fact that it can be a significant factor at some times but not at others doesn't invalidate my point(nor make yours, that we have consistently competed with the 'big boys' over many seasons, albeit not successfully enough to finish above them. Those teams you seemingly revere for their better head to head record of fighting against the big boys have clearly not fought as well against them in the competition that matters most. As for having the last word, in the absence of any real argument, you don't have much choice really.

  19. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Mar 02, 2014, 11:03 #46760

    Amos, our record shows that we don't fight with the big boys in terms of our head to head record against them. And where we end up at the end of each season shows we don't fight with them at the top of the table either. Those were my simple, straightforward points, based on the actual evidence. The record against the big boys is a problem; it's a problem you don't want to engage with. So time to move on now. I find it ironic to be accused of 'obsession' by a man who insists on having the last word in every single little encounter he has, as you doubtless will do again now.

  20. Green Hut

    Mar 02, 2014, 10:56 #46759

    Amos- Nope, never thought that 'an Arsenal press conference before a game against Liverpool was only a conversation about Chelsea's title challenge', you just made that up. But a part of that press conference did touch on the title race, which is the part we're talking about. As I said, in the context of what had just been said, everyone in the room understood who the original questioner was referring to, and when Wenger foolishly decided to run with it the second journalist decided to try and entice Wenger into digging an even deeper hole for himself. But you knew all this already.

  21. Amos

    Mar 02, 2014, 10:35 #46752

    @SGRB. I haven't misrepresented your argument at all. You took issue with my point that we continue to fight with the big boys by asserting that our record against them proves that we don't. I've shown that the title isn't dependent on the record against the 'big boys' any more than a better record against the 'big boys' guarantees a higher league placing than a team with a poorer record. The fact is that our league placement over the seasons shows that we continue to fight with the big boys - except perhaps in the resources we have been able to employ until now in order to do so. It was a disappointing result against Stoke but appropriately, given your present obsession, their record at home against the big boys this season, beating both the chavs, mancs and holding free scoring City to a 0-0 draw, maybe should have told you that it shouldn't have been an entirely unexpected result,though no less disappointing for that.

  22. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Mar 02, 2014, 9:56 #46739

    "I've demonstrated why the record against the top four teams is less relevant than the points gained overall while you've simply asserted that it isn't." Except that I haven't made this assertion. I've simply stated it's usually important and will be this season, whilst you've dismissed it as irrelevant. It's easy to make accusations of bogus assertions if you misrepresent your opponent's argument. The unexpected result at Stoke does make the upcoming games against Man C and Chelsea seem less important in terms of a title challenge though, as we can now win those and it still not be in our hands.

  23. Amos

    Mar 02, 2014, 9:49 #46737

    @SGRB. You're still being patronising in attempting to dismiss a point on the 'I said it first' principle. I've demonstrated why the record against the top four teams is less relevant than the points gained overall while you've simply asserted that it isn't. The support you proposed for your notion is that some teams that have consistently finished below us have a better record against top four clubs as though bizarrely that somehow proves your point and not mine!!!! I'm quite happy to see a genuine criticism of Wenger's methods but advocates of such bogus propositions as yours are equally deserving of criticism.

  24. Amos

    Mar 02, 2014, 9:28 #46730

    @greenhut. I think you're insulting your own intelligence if you think that an Arsenal press conference before a game against Liverpool was only a 'conversation' about Chelsea's title challenge. Wenger's observation that Chelsea were in a title winning position but others can still win it was in response to a question about how we were placed. Of course the second 'fear of failure' question was asked of Wenger, all the questions were which is kind of the point of a Wenger press conference, but that the question had to be repeated at all simply shows that the original response Wenger gave was too general in nature for the journos taste and he wanted to increase the opportunity to present it in a way he wanted. Sure 'every other manager' could have included Mourinho, but not specifically and not exclusively. It could only be a Mourinho insult if you turn it into one. So as Alex says: Why do Arsenal supporters (!??!) engage in such a past time? Yet again they have been seduced into believing it's the way to go.

  25. Moscow Gooner

    Mar 02, 2014, 8:09 #46720

    Interested to see some on here arguing that supporting a football club is on the lines of: 'enjoying beautiful football and being part of a well-run club, and if occasionally we win something all well and good.' It may be but that is not the Arsenal way and it has not been since Herbert Chapman took charge in 1925. It's what I used to hear from West Ham and Tottenham fans in the 1970s. Nobody claimed that the '71 Double side played 'beautiful football' - but they were winners and that's what counts. This current side have yet to prove that they are anything but 'specialists in failure'. I hope they will (prove to be winners) - but the jury is out until May.

  26. Joe S.

    Mar 02, 2014, 6:51 #46719

    Rage on Tom and beat your mighty breast for what it's worth. Your stance does not imply loyalty but a blind refusal to accept the obvious. Arsene Wegner could be in charge of Arsenal for another ten years and still we'll be in Ground Hog Day. Anyway what gives you the right to call yourself a true fan? You sanctimonious follower.

  27. CT Gooner

    Mar 02, 2014, 3:17 #46718

    @ Tom. So what am I missing? What is Arsene Wenger doing that makes you feel the way you do. I feel his inability to recruit the correct players we require is dreadful. I think his tactical incompetence is a joke. I find his pay check obscene. I find the speed of our play over the last 4 years to be ponderous. I have articulated my complaints, now please tell me what he's doing right??? You seem to feel that supporting the manager and regime make you more of a fan, I'd argue it makes you a sheep. Oh and by the way, kronke will spend your money moving the St Louis Rams to LA...

  28. Enfield Eric

    Mar 02, 2014, 1:00 #46717

    @Amos Wenger's response was to those in title contention and in no way aimed at anyone specifically, except those suffering from paranoia.

  29. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Mar 02, 2014, 0:29 #46716

    @Amos, simply trying to turn it around with 'no it's you that's being patronising', 'no it's you that think he should be messianic' is pretty poor stuff. Who said anything about 'aiming' for 3rd or 4th? That's what we compete for, is the simple fact. I do understand why you want to dismiss Wenger's record against the big teams as 'irrelevant' - to do otherwise would require a critique of the man and his methods, rather than a critique of the critics, which is where your focus lies.

  30. Green Hut

    Mar 02, 2014, 0:01 #46715

    Amos- The conversation was specifically about the title race, so I very much doubt that the reporter's 'every other manager' was referring to those in charge of Fulham or Cardiff. Ruling out Pelligrini, we're only talking Chelsea, Liverpool and maybe tottenham, and Chelsea were top. And to clear up your ambiguous comment, the person that the later journalist (clearly smelling blood) asked for clarification from was Wenger, not the original questioner, who knew exactly what he meant as did everyone else in the room and everyone watching over the next couple of weeks on youtube. So please stop insulting everyone's intelligence with this nonsense.

  31. Tom

    Mar 02, 2014, 0:01 #46714

    All the boring Wenger hasn't got a clue, virtual soccer managers coming out with their usual post match wisdom. Bugger off! Arsenal don't need you anymore we have enough real fans and can easily afford to lose 30,000 glory hunters, most of you are sad depressive losers anyway.

  32. radfordkennedy

    Mar 01, 2014, 22:32 #46713

    same old,same old if you listen you can hear a string quartet playing 'nearer to thy god than thee'

  33. Amos

    Mar 01, 2014, 22:26 #46712

    @greenhut. The response was to a question which referred to 'every other manager'. There was no direct inference other than to offer a reason why 'every other manager' might act in the way the questioner suggested. Only the questioner can know what was in the questioners mind but it was apparently so unclear that another reporter had to ask him again later in the same press conference what he might have meant. Clearly the media drew the inference that suited their purpose. If, as some wished, you wanted to use it as a stick with which to beat Arsene you could of course as some have done. Which is pretty much the theme of the article.

  34. Joe S.

    Mar 01, 2014, 22:13 #46711

    Wegners problem is that he's bought the party line and is just happy to go along with the eco rationalists and make a nice buck for himself at the expense of the fans. I don't believe he even believes half the rubbish that comes from his mouth regarding integrity. What are the figures on his reputed new contract again? Well excuse me! The whole argument seems to be a dud. Maurinio had everything at Madrid yet came out with the minimum. He often looked out of his depth against the likes of Barcellona and the German teams. At Chelsea he looks like a god because he is managing in a weaker league where the likes of Liverpool and Manure are rebuilding. As for Arsenal, well they just refuse to compete so let's just stop it there.

  35. Bob

    Mar 01, 2014, 21:49 #46710

    What, exactly, was the point of this verbose contribution? Mourinho may have been blunt in his reaction to Wenger's original remake, but he was not wrong. Move on.

  36. Man United Killer

    Mar 01, 2014, 20:13 #46709

    Our toothless attack once again exposed.No runners at defenders, no shooters, no effective widemen, no crossing abilities, no runners into box for crosses,no clinical and reliable finishers, no bulldozing midfielders,no direct play, no tenacity, no bravery, no 'no nonsense' attitude, no imposing players in midfield,no plan B playing style.NO HEART...titles are made of these. Table is starting to take expected shape.Wenger Out Indeed!!!

  37. Ozil left out of scrum

    Mar 01, 2014, 20:01 #46708

    It's happened. Wenger has morphed into the old Tony Pulis. He may yet get Arsenal back to as boring as GG when option vanished. Hughes must be leeking himself.

  38. WENGER OUT

    Mar 01, 2014, 19:59 #46707

    BADARSE, I must admit that I never saw you as someone who believes in class systems - To me you seem to be someone with a liberal mind who can see past class and status. Certainly I think that defining a 'Boer' is a historical/political nightmare worth avoiding. Maureen is a very successful manager who has formed excellent relationships with his players over the years and from what I can tell he's also a devoted family man. I've met many psychopaths in my career to date, people who make Maureen look like mother Theresa - I think Mourinho thrives on being branded a villain and actively aims for it, we'd all be better off ignoring his comments as a reaction is exactly what he's after. As you asked before, in order of ability 1-5: Ramsey, Ozil, Wilshere, Rosicky, Cazorla - In order of effectiveness: Koscielny, Mertesacker, Ramsey, Sir Chesney, Ox-Chambo.

  39. Peter Wain

    Mar 01, 2014, 19:40 #46706

    poor performance lack of pace without Walcott why was the ox not given a run. Another waste of a season and we seem as far away from a trophy as ever. Lucky to finish fifth at this rate.

  40. underacheiver

    Mar 01, 2014, 19:35 #46705

    Another trophy less season beckons again. But don't worry the futures so bright we need sunglasses. Sign an improved contract Arsene and take a big bonus Ivan. A few percent on ticket prices will cover it all. Cheers.

  41. BADARSE

    Mar 01, 2014, 19:23 #46704

    By the way WENGER OUT, in answer to an earlier post I don't think the article was name-calling when 'Portuguese Peasant' was referred to. We use the term country bumpkin, and yokel, USA use hick, and the Dutch use boer. All referring to simple folk, or those without class. Of course Mourhino has lots of class, it's a pity it is all second though.

  42. jeff wright

    Mar 01, 2014, 19:05 #46703

    Wenger's effort at mind games with Mourinho has fooled. All it did was to put more pressure on our players to have to the league. This was always unlikely to happen with our weak squad and Wenger's one dimensional tactics and rigid pre-planned substitutions. Now it is in reality all about trying to finish third . Chelsea have a 4 point lead and we have to go to the bridge only a super optimistic AKB, taking account of Wenger's record against Mourinho, can see us winning there . City have two winnable games in hand on us and also play us at the Emirates . All very predictable really how things would transpire ,unless you have been living in Tibet in a cave with no access to the outside world for 9 years. Because otherwise you would have seen it all before. I agree with the views expressed by some about Amos and his hypocrisy and deluded opinions on his own superior grasp of detail.

  43. BADARSE

    Mar 01, 2014, 18:55 #46702

    WENGER OUT, much respect to you buddy. Thank you for such an honest answer. It shows through the cracks that you are sincere and clearly pained. I wish I could offer something, but you might tell me the five players you rate most in this squad...or what music makes you boogie! Once more, respect.

  44. Stevieo

    Mar 01, 2014, 18:54 #46701

    Post match interviews: Winning manager – “it was a nailed on penalty”: Losing manager – “never a penalty in a million years”: How predictable. Lazy interview technique to blame for this. A bit more he said, she said or a head butt thrown in could have provoked a reaction worth debating!!

  45. Green Hut

    Mar 01, 2014, 18:42 #46700

    Amos- So when you watched the journalist ask Wenger the 'general question' immediately after Wenger had said the title was Chelsea's to lose, you didn't believe like the rest of the football world that there was direct inference towards Mourinho and Rodgers, and principly Mourinho as Chelsea were top? You're doing exactly what you and Chris constantly accuse jeff wright of doing.

  46. WENGER OUT

    Mar 01, 2014, 18:34 #46699

    BADARSE, a fair question. I have chosen my name very deliberately; I gave up being magnanimous towards Wenger after the January transfer window. I have decided to step up my anti-Wenger rhetoric until he's gone - I do realise my name will marginalise me in the eyes of many, who will write me off as a fanatic, but if I chose another name, others would accuse me of blowing with the wind. At least this way my stance is always clear, even when I'm writing of my love for the club or my joy at a well-earned win. I have been totally convinced that Arsene should be relieved of his duties since the 2-1 loss at United last season - I even submitted an article about it - and nothing I have seen since has changed my mind.

  47. Gav Lee

    Mar 01, 2014, 17:54 #46697

    Wenger out. Seems a good name to me.

  48. kilkenny cat

    Mar 01, 2014, 17:54 #46696

    No shock no surprise. Anyone with eyes knows what will happen. We will win nothing till this regime are gone. Everton is a massive game,but ogl will make his usual errors. My anger increases as Suarez scores again. Sick of groundhog day.

  49. BADARSE

    Mar 01, 2014, 17:39 #46695

    WENGER OUT. Why would you choose that as a name? Is that your only idea? Is that your prime aim on here, just to find an opportunity to bang a drum and holler 'Wenger out!' Only asking as it strikes me as a quite narrow remit-your handle kind of gives away the direction you are coming from. I am sure you have valid and well constructed arguments to support that view but do you not think it sort of makes you a one-trick pony? Do you ever celebrate or enjoy just being an AFC fan? Serious question as it wouldn't do for me; I need something more and I don't just mean silverware. Harrison Ford might say, 'When did you last see a game that truly made you smile, made you happy to be a fan?' There are far worst things happening in the world than Arsenal losing a football match.

  50. Silly Billy

    Mar 01, 2014, 17:20 #46694

    gets it wrong amos ur not convincing me with your view coz jose he winds wenger up and make him a fool again

  51. Amos

    Mar 01, 2014, 17:13 #46693

    That's a common enough mistake Silly Billy but no - he's right often enough but he get's it wrong too. Pretty normal stuff really. It's those that think he should have messianic properties who struggle most with what is said.

  52. Silly Billy

    Mar 01, 2014, 17:00 #46692

    amos belives what wenger says must be right

  53. WENGER OUT

    Mar 01, 2014, 16:59 #46691

    Classic Wenger performance - leaves Ox on the bench until 73rd minute, then takes off our best player (Rosicky - not much to choose from) and the best finisher (Podolski). How bad does Cazorla need to be to get dropped? At the first sign of trouble, Cazorla and Arteta (both worse than useless) should have been off for Ox and Ozil - Useless f'ing management once again!! O well, it's all academic as we won't win another trophy under Wenger, so I don't know why I let it bother me....

  54. Amos

    Mar 01, 2014, 16:58 #46690

    It was the media that dreamt up idea (or more accurately twisted what was said) that he had accused Mourinho of a fear of failure rather than giving a general response to a general question yes Steveio so I'm happy to clear that up along with the notion that any glassware was involved.

  55. Stevieo

    Mar 01, 2014, 16:43 #46689

    Thanks for clearing that up Amos. So it was the media that dreamt up all this 'fear of failure' stuff, told Mourinho and then made out that Wenger had said it. And you reckon it's the media that twists things?

  56. BADARSE

    Mar 01, 2014, 16:32 #46688

    Bard, of course you know the club will not open up and tell you what you want. All organisations play their cards close to their chests, and the use of smoke and mirrors is now commonplace in all walks of life. I am aware of their use in most things, and their continuation is paramount in general operations throughout. I don't let that aspect get to me as it just leads to wild imaginings. I invite you to come and sit on the hill with me and watch the world spinning round.

  57. Amos

    Mar 01, 2014, 15:41 #46687

    @SGRB. I think you're the one being patronising and doing yourself a disservice in the process. How many points do you aim for to finish 3rd? It has been as low as 68 and as high as 83 since we last finished 1st. 4th? As low as 61 and as high as 76. It isn't possible to aim for 3rd or 4th. Everyone aims to get first or failing that as close as they can but they're all competing for it. It's just a matter of how long into the season they can continue to do so. Our ability to compete with the big boys means we haven't ended worse than 4th. An aspiration for others you've mentioned hence it really doesn't matter how good Everton, Spurs and Liverpools record is against the top four if they still fail to finish above us. You're being even more patronising in attempting to convince anyone, least of all me, that it matters more. The trend is evident for those who want to see it but you need to look a little more broadly at the competitive landscape over the last 10 years and imagine what they might be over the next 10 to understand trend patterns.

  58. jeff wright

    Mar 01, 2014, 15:00 #46686

    Personally I couldn't care less what Mourinho and Wenger think of one anothers management . The Portugeezeezers comments though have fixed the spotlight on Wenger regarding actually winning a real trophy this season - and he is now caught in its glare like a frightened fox who was using the dark of night to try and raid a chicken coop in a back garden. Wenger said pre-season that he would not sign a new contract until he saw evidence that he and his current side could bring some success to the club.So far he appears to be adhering to this ,of course it could all be a cynical ploy to try and gee up Giroud and co, but then again it could be true, and how things pan out over the next few weeks could prove to a catalyst in deciding on Wenger's future plans . All of the current coaching staff at AFC are out of contract in the summer and with the current trend for new managers to bring in their own staff this would be an opportune time for a changing of the guard to take place - if Wenger does get on his bike and pedal off into a fading sunset with his bust safely left standing on its pedestal in the Emirates mausoleum .

  59. Bard

    Mar 01, 2014, 14:55 #46685

    Chris; its irrelevant what would have happened if if if. The reality is he didn't and he hasn't thats fact. Trophies won in the last 8 years none. Where is the evidence that he has trumped the big boys? Badarse; of course I realise they aren't likely to come clean. My point is that it is the smoke and mirrors coming from the club that explains why there is so much discontent.

  60. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Mar 01, 2014, 14:50 #46684

    @Amos, you're splitting hairs. For clarification, AFC compete for 3rd and 4th. Your 'it's a prerequisite' comment is patronising and does you a disservice in genuine debate. Further - AFC's overall record against Man U, Chelsea and Man C over the past 5 seasons is poorer than Everton's, Spu*s' and Liverpool's. That's the trend. You will already know this of course. So, given your first interest is in seeing evidence based argument, why, I wonder, would you choose to pick out two more favourable seasons, rather than the much stronger evidence provided by the trend? And how have these lesser resourced clubs managed a better record than us, if it's all about resources? I'm afraid it does matter and is significant - we don't win the big games. And that will usually - as it would do this season - mean winning nothing.

  61. Amos

    Mar 01, 2014, 14:30 #46683

    Colourful analogy but still wrong I feel Stevio. Wenger didn't throw anything the press asked 'What is this?' Wenger answered 'It's a bottle'. The press then carried it to Mourinho and threw it at him. The article really just points to the enthusiasm with which some will pick up any stick (or bottle for that matter) and use it to beat Wenger with. Good that we both agree with what Wenger said as a general response but not unreasonable to put out that Jose over reacted. Wenger's words were twisted by press knaves to make a trap for foolish Jose to use a paraphrased aphorism that grasshoppers might appreciate. :)

  62. Westlower

    Mar 01, 2014, 14:01 #46681

    @Wenger Out, The 'peasant' description of MAUREEN came originally from Portugal where he is despised in some quarters. It didn't originate on the Gooner website. For all his success he isn't as popular in his home country as you may imagine.

  63. Stevieo

    Mar 01, 2014, 13:49 #46680

    Amos, the media didn't throw the first bottle. They put it in Wenger's hand and said you can put it back on the table, or you can throw it. I agreed with what Wenger said, but we shouldn't get upset if a crate comes back. This article states that Arsenal fans are led like sheep. The fact that so many Arsenal fans have prescribed to what Mourinho said several years ago before this outburst, doesn't make them sheep?

  64. WENGER OUT

    Mar 01, 2014, 13:45 #46679

    Long walk for a short drink their Alex - Do you find yourself preaching to others often? The 'Portuguese Peasant' - not really called that by anyone other than AKB's - was way out of order in what he said, but it's the fact that every word was true that hurts Wenger worshipers like yourself. Where was Arsene's supposed integrity last year when he disrespected his own fans after the Villa game? I know it was another situation sensationalised by the media to sell a story - and I can see that for myself without your saintly intervention - but I saw the interview and I saw a man way out of his depth being downright disrespectful, another despot desperately attempting to cling to the power he has so unrightfully been afforded these last few years. He's an ordinary coach and it's time for him to leave this extraordinary club.

  65. Amos

    Mar 01, 2014, 13:33 #46678

    @SGRB. You don't stand any chance of winning the title if you're not competing for a top 4 place. It's a pre-requisite. We do finish above those with fewer resources than we have now and we've continuously finished above some of those who have had or employed more resources than we've had in the recent past. We've also, on occasions, finished above those who have more resources than us now. ManU's record isn't that much of an anomaly though it is more so in the post-Abramovich era but it stands to reason that usually our record is poorer against the teams that have finished above us. However we've recently W3 D1 and L2 against those teams and finished 4th (and also recently lost only once and won 2)against the other top 4 teams which is much the sort of average points totals that the winners might be expected to gain against their peers. So I'm happy to clarify that the record against the top four teams isn't that significant. What is more significant is that we end the season with more points than other teams not where the points come from.

  66. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Mar 01, 2014, 12:40 #46676

    @Amos, competing for a top 4 place is different to competing at the top, which is the impression you were giving before, glad you've clarified. Just as those with more resources ought to finish above us, so we ought to finish above those with less resources. And that Man U title win was an anomaly. That record against the big boys is usually significant and will be this season, if you look at the fixtures coming up. @Chris, thought someone may bring up Chelsea 2 seasons ago. They won the European Cup that year. Or is qualifying for the CL now better than actually winning it?

  67. Chris

    Mar 01, 2014, 12:18 #46675

    Bard - It's simply not true that Wenger is out of his depth in the big time. If he'd been able to buy Hazard, Subotic and one or two others a few years back, as it was reported he wanted to, we would be completing much better at the top table. As it is, he does remarkably well with the resources expended. If the club are to be believed, we are at the beginning of a period when we should be able to compete better with the big boys, and already we've seen that in terms of one bigger signing and being at the top of the league with only 11 games to go - so things should get better. SGRB - This season is already different from the previous 5 for the above reason (still being in contact at the top with 11 games to go). And we don't 'always finish behind the big boys' do we? We sometimes finish above one of them, like Chelsea 2 years ago and Man U this year. It's hard to compete 3 teams with far greater resources. And what's more - we NEVER EVER finish behind those who expend fewer resources than us. That shows we're on the right path, with Wenger for the timesbeing.

  68. Amos

    Mar 01, 2014, 12:16 #46674

    @SGRB. That we are continuing to compete or fight with the big boys isn't the same as our individual record against each of them. The record of most teams against those that usually finish above us, even among themselves, is bound to be poorer but in itself that isn't significant. ManU won the title fairly recently having won only once and losing three against the other teams in the top four. We've always competed for a top four place, much more so than Spurs or any of the others in this other 'tier'. So much so that we've managed 3rd in 3 or the last 6 seasons. Our record of competing in this 'brutal' period is far better than anyone other than those with the resources that ought to guarantee they finish above us. @Bard. I'm pretty sure that if we'd drifted into mid table after 2005, weighed down by finances and mortgaging future income to compete with the transfer spending of the teams that have finished above us, changing manager every couple of years all in a desperate bid to chase the rainbow that we could compete with Abramovich and Mansour there would be many among the present malcontents happier see us as a mid table club trying to punch above our weight. I spoke with a Portsmouth supporter a while back and asked him whether their present position was worth a few seasons in the PL and an FA cup. He said it was. I'd have hoped to build something more enduring myself.

  69. BADARSE

    Mar 01, 2014, 12:08 #46673

    Bard, the club will not 'come out and say' what you expect, or suggest. It doesn't work that way chum, does it. What Amos is saying is that had we fallen from the summit long ago we would have been more ready to accept things as they are. I have claimed the same before, using different words. In many ways we are victims of our own 'success' in such matters. As we have had an unbroken run in the CL, occasional tilts at he title and some cup final appearances it perhaps has raised expectations beyond what AFC and AW can reasonably deliver. Had we had a run of finishing somewhere towards mid-table, this season would be deemed a success in comparison. The gripe of not spending enough, AW a poor manager, ST prices, people leaving the Grove early etc, are all different arguments entirely.

  70. Bard

    Mar 01, 2014, 11:49 #46672

    Amos; I'm not sure about the argument that we might be less discontented if we hadn't had opportunities. Its possible that he would have gone a long time ago if that had been the case. Its my view that the discontent is more about wasted potential. and the lies that the club expects us to swallow. If they came out and told us that we can't realistically compete for the bigger trophies and that we are the competing with the best of the rest then I for one would accept that. I love Arsenal and if thats the best they can do so be it. But sadly thats not the case. We are told we aspire to win the PL and CL that we have the financial muscle to buy the best players but show no real intent to do any of those things and we have a manager who's out of his depth in the big time. Moyes is having the same problem at Utd. Thats the real source of the discontent.

  71. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Mar 01, 2014, 11:26 #46671

    @Amos "that we have continued to, are still and will be able to continue to fight with the big boys should be clear enough". It's not though is it. Our record against the 'big boys' for the past several seasons has been poor and we finish behind them in the league every season. You may wish to argue that AFC's record has been good enough in the circumstances, but let's not deny that brutal reality. We've not competed with them at the top, we've been in that next tier down, fighting with the likes of Spu*s for a CL place. We've yet to see if this season is any different.

  72. BADARSE

    Mar 01, 2014, 11:11 #46670

    Ron, hi buddy. Chris and Amos have really covered the bases for me. I would just add this without going 'all cosmic', the lines have shifted and blurred. I can refer to 'flat cap' eras as dead and buried and that is understood and accepted. What people struggle with is the very real concept that eras are evolving and devolving whilst we breathe. The change is happening right now! We don't notice it as it's like our own hair growing. When a change is noted we resist. Human nature has that coded within our genes. We are surviving right now with the existing status quo, a new order could be threatening so we must distrust it. It's our blueprint for survival after all. It's fair and reasonable to reflect and make a judgement for better or for worse when comparing eras, but then we have to move forward-operating under the newly established guidelines or we become dinosaurs. True football is a simple game however the ramifications of it's involvements asks for a far deeper understanding. Were that winning trophies was the only barometer of success. That my friend, is no longer true.

  73. Amos

    Mar 01, 2014, 11:06 #46669

    Most do accept the brutality of winning and losing. It's those that are most sanguine about it that attract the most criticism. The pragmatic view of the changes in the competitive environment in football in the post-Abramovich era, magnified by the changes in player contract law while revenue was diverted to capital investments accepts the brutal consequences of those realities. It's those having difficulty in accepting those consequences who are most discontented but that we have continued to, are still and will be able to continue to fight with the big boys should be clear enough. Curiously had we not still been 'in contention a number of times', despite the challenges there probably would have been less discontent.

  74. Bard

    Mar 01, 2014, 10:25 #46668

    We can have debate about the philosophy of winning and losing in life but the beauty of sport is that the winning and losing issue is absolutely clear. That we can't accept the brutality of it is why there are all the arguments about pens not given bad ref decisions etc. For a club of Arsenal's size and financial power they should have done better. We have been in contention a number of times as we are now but Wenger seems incapable of getting us over the line. My opinion is that he hasn't got the bottle to fight with the big boys any more. He is happy to be a good loser hiding behind spurious arguments about why he didn't make it.

  75. Chris

    Mar 01, 2014, 9:54 #46667

    Ron - As Badarse is kind of saying, success' is relative - getting in the top four is a success compared to not being in the CL each year. It's not a yes / no situation, even in footballing terms. Re Mounrinho - I actually think that his rejection as a player, in front of his dad, inflicted some deep-seated wound on his psyche. Consequently, on some level he has a hatred of football for inflecting this wound and he has this raging desire to dominate it - allowing him to 'kill' his rejection and the idea of himself as a failure at the same time as 'punishing' the game itself, for inflicting the wound. This is why he drags its name through the dirt e.g. by poking opposing coaches in the eye when he doesn't win and the game threatens to validate his 'failure', plays joyless anti-football that negates the game and the spectacle when he feels he needs to to avoid the ultimate humiliation - defeat, and always ends up in conflict no matter where he goes. Judged in anything but superficial terms - silverware - he is a failure. To him the end result is all that matters - and not for anything but self-centred reasons either. Is that all that we as supporters have become / aspire to?

  76. Amos

    Mar 01, 2014, 9:49 #46666

    You're just describing much of the process of manipulation that Alex refers to in his article Steveio. If he's using an 'old' story to demonstrate that manipulation then there's little new in that. You even agree that such fare is more interesting than either pre or post match interviews with a particular disdain for Wengers post match interviews especially when he offers an informed view different from what might be seen as the popular view. To some extent that it was the article takes issue with. To continue with your pub analogy, in this instance it was the media that threw the first bottle, told Mourinho that someone else threw it and got him to hurl a crate of bottles back. They then stood back and laughed at the slapstick that ensued as everyone else argued about who threw what.

  77. Stevieo

    Mar 01, 2014, 8:57 #46665

    Yes Alex, a non story that the media couldn’t breathe life in to. So what do you do? You drag up this old story, and add your tuppence worth to stir a reaction on here. Exactly what you accuse the media of always doing? And why does everyone ‘bite’ and buy in to it? Frankly it’s more interesting than managers saying what a tough game they’ve got at the weekend and how they’ll approach it professionally. It’s better than listening to what a good squad a manager has, and how it’s full of mental strength and belief. The sort of rhetoric we’ve heard in press conferences since the press conference began. So when the sh*t hits the fan with spats between managers or players, only you seem surprised that everyone ‘loves’ it. Everyone loved the Wenger/Fergie spats. Post match interviews are a bore. But when the ref has made a game changing clanger in a game, we all can’t wait to see how the affected manager responds in his interview. Sat there hoping he is spitting feathers with a high blood pressure and veins popping, Geoff Shreeve continuously probing for a reaction with the mic rammed in the manager’s face, it is quite disappointing when it is played down. The fact that Wenger is an expert at hanging himself at post match interviews with his version of events being different to the rest of the observers, no wonder the media smell blood. However, you make him sound the vilified in all this. In this instance, he was more like the guy that throws the first bottle in a pub and then gets the hell out.

  78. Ron

    Mar 01, 2014, 8:36 #46664

    Hi Badarse - Yes, quite correct to a degree but you have to look at the reasons why. Footballs a simple game and genuine success is recognised only by winning trophies. The thing is a Club can have partial success, same as a business. Eg win the FAC and be relegated. Overall, looked at in context of a full season, thats failure largely but still successful. You've UEFA to thank for the new type of success via its choice of rewarding failure by extending entrants into its so called cream of Europe tourny and downgrading everything else as a consequence. Its done that and thus created two or 3 tiers of success, depending on which Club wins which trophy ie Sunderland staying up and winning today is great success across a season. For United, it would be small beer, second grade success but better than nothing.These changes now allow Clubs like Arsenal to claim to be successful by virtue of getting top 4 each season. Its successful but not in a footballing sense. Liverpool would think the same now, yet years ago they would say anything but 1st was abject failure. The changes have at their root, the desire for wealth generation. Sporting excellence has become secondary. This is where the schism comes in between fans and Club, for those who follow the top Clubs. The lesser Clubs fans aspire to have the same schism s with their Clubs.Its madness and football is the loser.

  79. BADARSE

    Mar 01, 2014, 7:51 #46663

    Good morning gentlemen. The definition of success in football nowadays is akin to most assessments of life. Often a nebulous state of being, and always open to interpretation. When two sides offer their personal and differing views, conflict ensues. Most come to the table with preordained mind sets-agendas even- and argue to prove their points. Interesting as it is, it's not debating-it certainly isn't a discussion. In the 'flat cap' days it was a case of, 'if you won the match that day'. That was success. It didn't even carry beyond that for much of a supporter's existence. At the sharp end of a season with a prospect of winning the trophy, and with the finishing line in view the immediacy of the moment ruled the outlook. This situation for most was a very rare event. With a certain period of dominance a club's fans can lose touch with reality, their own mortality even; they believe they are 'kings of the world'. Perspective is altered. During the 'thirties', our most 'successfully sustained' (?) period, we finished 'double' runners-up in '32. We didn't win a sausage that season, yet I count it as successful, in the wider scheme of things, and hit people with it when in a chat I parade our attainments for that decade. If we look at the way these postings have shaped it's been reduced to a 'Daddy or chips' moment. It would be interesting to reflect on the following: Could AW achieve success with a highly talented group? Emphatic yes-he has! With developing a group of young players? That too. Winning with a 'cheaper' group of players? The jury is out on that one, but again some might say yes, success after a manner, due to him coming close. JM can clearly win with a dominant group. Could he develop young players and fashion them into a competitive unit, or succeed with a 'cheaper' group in the PL? Unproven! Individuals then decide on their own balanced view of success.

  80. Westlower

    Mar 01, 2014, 7:23 #46662

    @Ron I saw Status Quo after racing at Newmarket. Great 'one' song band that keep regurgitating but seen worse. Watched Supertramp live in Paris 79 last night. On the weekend of LC Final; AFC 1 Swindon 3, 1969; AFC 2 Luton 3, 1988. Looking at those results some may conclude we were mentally weak, tactically inept & managed by a clueless man.

  81. Ron

    Feb 28, 2014, 23:29 #46661

    Ha. Yes. its good doing that. All good stuff. Be great to get to talk and have a few drinks with these guys i always say and meet them as they are. Im sure we d be totally re adjusted towards them, though they live their lives being guarded with people i guess for fear of loons running off to the press so maybe its a chosen few who really get to know them.

  82. Chris

    Feb 28, 2014, 23:17 #46660

    Psychopaths are usually charming, Ron, so that doesn't say much! I admit I'm running with the theme and do have my tongue in my cheek a bit, just to see where it might take me. Although I'm making it up as I go along, reckon my Mo theories hold as much weight as most of the Wenger ones we see on here...

  83. Ron

    Feb 28, 2014, 23:05 #46659

    Oh i dunno Chris. GG was a lovely footballer but obsessed by getting the right result. Not as brash as Mourinho but just as driven to win. I can see where youre coming from, but i reckon you detest Mourinho a bit too much really ha. (I actually met him once mate in the Marriot hotel in Bham. Chelsea were there playing Villa at night one mid week.Carlton Cole the big oaf knocked one of our PA s papers flying - mind you i think she was too busy oggling Jose!He helped her pick up and re org all her stuff. Very charming. Seemed a really nice guy. We had about 15 mins with him) He bought us a bottle of nice Red. I told him i hoped Villa tonked them. They didnt. Chelsea won 2-0

  84. Tel

    Feb 28, 2014, 22:59 #46658

    It all really boils down to how an individual perceives Arsenal and how they would like it to be run. Most AKB's are like Wenger, they like to see a well run club,self sufficient playing great football and not relying on outside sugar daddies and influences. If Arsenal win a trophy or two that's great,if they don't well as long as they're competing and heading in the right direction then that's fine too. The WOB's are a different kettle of fish.They would rather Arsenal become some world dominating super club like Madrid with sugar daddies huge signings every window and quick turnover of players and managers. Wenger and Mourinho like the AKB's and WOB's are worlds apart as well which is why there will always like the two sets of fans be tension between them.

  85. Chris

    Feb 28, 2014, 22:42 #46657

    Ron - I think Mo is petrified to fail. Why else would be do ANYHING to win? Not for nothing is he known as an enemy of football. He's never been a club builder like AW or Fergie (which takes with it the risk of losing but feeds a love of the game) and as you say, he hates to have to trust young players. He sends them out on loan so he can concentrate of 'winning'. He burns out his relationships with clubs - to win. 'Winning' is not automatically good - and in Mo's case, it's s pathological consequence of his failure as a player and his subsequent desire to desperately prove to daddy that he isn't a failure. It's a deep-seated schema that rules his existence and his desperate desire to prove he's a 'winner' has the opposite effect. You see a 'winner' - I see a 'loser' in life, at least in the wider sense of a successful life. Just my two bobs worth - maybe rubbish but I don't think so.

  86. Amos

    Feb 28, 2014, 22:37 #46656

    Indeed you ought to be familiar with your own tendency to prevaricate jeff but I remain unconvinced that you are that honest with yourself. I can't pretend that I'm particularly interested with the details of your fondness for a 70's TV series but it certainly isn't relevant no matter how many opportunities it may provide for unconnected statements. Thanks for the invitation to continuing posting - not that one was needed. Likewise you may not need the invitation to dig a little deeper yourself.

  87. Ron

    Feb 28, 2014, 22:34 #46655

    Hi Westie - too much time on my hands tonight mate. We do have a few good debates on here at times though don't we, even though we p--s each other off at times!! ha. We all love the Gunners though and we shdt none of us ever forget that. Mate , Stokes a toughie, though i don't think theyre as formidable under Hughes. Its winnable but i wdt be surprised at a draw. PS. BBC 4 - Status Quo! Yuk. thats why im on here i guess mate! They developed a winning formula tho0ugh didn't they all those years ago, so who am i to damn them. Saw them once at Wembley. Wet and rainy cold July and Queen were on doing their 'kind of magic' tour. 1985/6 must be. Quo got everybody cheered up, rocking and warm whereas Freddie M cdt that day. Did it make Quo a better band than Queen?Of course not, but for some it did i'm pretty sure. Who s wrong? Just like our footie arguments eh mate. No indisputable answers.

  88. jeff wright

    Feb 28, 2014, 22:26 #46654

    I know prevarication when I see it Amos and the grasshopper to whom I referred was a boy and not a winged insect grasshopper was his name,so carry on digging yourself into a hole if you wish but your own claims to being a pedantic detailed poster are being exposed for the sham that they are.

  89. Ron

    Feb 28, 2014, 22:15 #46653

    Seems nothing fundamentally wrong with Wenger as a man Chris, nor Mourinho too really. Just different. Both arrogant and stubborn in different ways. Both loved by players in different ways. When does a player ever damn either of them, past or present? Both are clever, both obnoxious in different ways, both are manipulators of opinion to bolster their own agendas, just do it differently but it does get personal at times when the equilibrium moves a bit. I don't think Mourinho's frightened to fail at all. I don't think losing enters his vocabulary. Hes too confident. Ive never seen AW as confident. His players with his best teams have been 'his confidence' as theyve ad libbed games and won when defeats were looking inevitable. Mourinho sets his store by wanting to 'tactic his way' to wins. He wants the wins to be 'his' and his players to do his bidding exactly and he loves them when they do. The players love him for it, as it works nearly always. When they don't he gets shot of them. He likes players though who are headstrong and who can bully.Hes ruthless with them though and not scared of them. Wenger preaches a philosophy and wants the players to execute it. He could when he had clever players, blessed with power and skill but not so much nowadays. Project young untried player, became his cause celeb and as he couldnt or wouldnt buy and had the green shoots of it working from 2006 - 2008, he became arrogant and stubborn in that when the wheels came off, he persisted with the same experiment and wouldn't change tack. Those younger players didn't have it in them to question him. There were too many of them together and they had their own youngster culture to bounce off each other during bad times. As that persisted i don't think Wenger has ever found it within himself to go back to stronger men with big personalities. I think hes frightened to, as such players force change in football Clubs, changes that Wenger might not have been able to resist. By the same token i reckon Mourinho is frightened to do what Wenger has tried ie risk placing faith in youngsters. Hes frightened of the uncertainty of that plus winning is too important both to him and his bosses. Theyre both riddled with hang ups. All top coaches and captains of any industry are, all great generals in the military are. Mourinho's thirst for winning is as rooted as is Wenger's philosophy to him. To judge them from the outside as us lot do, is governed by simple criteria of wins and trophies. Each mans employer uses the same criteria and its a case of which one the employer chooses that shapes the man. Much to respect in both men. Much to respect in both Clubs. I don't buy into the must hate Chelsea cos they've got oodles of cash view. Its just their way. The Chelsea way is that they say to their fans, ' we'll do what we have too to win trophies'. Arsenals way is to say ' we re not prepared to do what we have to. to win trophies, but we ll have you people believe that we are doing so'. The difference is massive. Its the last bit that annoys me intensely about Arsenal. They treat the fans like mugs when for me, all it would have taken several years ago was for them to say, 'look, we ve moved stadium and the likely outcome is we ll not win trophies but we will do our best with less than ideal resources'. Instead they weave a web of deceit and for many it convinces. Its that which enables the Club to settle for a peristent relative lesser level that they're happy with. In fairness, the end product isn't bad when compared to 16 other Clubs as Amos rightly says. For me, The Club can and should be doing far better though by now and i cant see much there to tell me that they're very interested in raising their own bar.As for Arsene, i don't think he could go back to managing big players with egos again. Too long away from it and its his biggest weakness. Its all speculative and our conclusions are all based on from which direction you look at things of course.

  90. maguiresbridge gooner

    Feb 28, 2014, 22:09 #46652

    Good post Ron, and your making a habit of making the quip of the day, hoovering up cups, i can still remember when we used to do that, we probably still could if we had a decent Henry.

  91. Amos

    Feb 28, 2014, 21:45 #46651

    It's all in the context again jeff. Despite the implied warning in the article about using unconnected statements for reinforcement, ironically perhaps, you've introduced Stan's observations on an unrelated topic - Badarse's alleged patronisation - plane spotting - wage amortisation - and at some length ManU's future prospects. Now you seem overly concerned with aphorisms purportedly shared with winged insects. So I'm guessing you don't yet have the concept of prevarication in its proper context. ;)

  92. jeff wright

    Feb 28, 2014, 21:32 #46650

    Really,then why did you attribute the masters musings to grasshopper?

  93. Westlower

    Feb 28, 2014, 21:31 #46649

    @Ron, Whatever matey, ha,ha! Seriously that was an impressive 'War & Peace' post. You mentioned the key word 'fear'. Supporters especially fear losing and some struggle to deal with it. The foul mood that losing creates leads to blaming the manager and works itself through the usual suspects in the team. Good judgement gets distorted when we lose our tempers & the bloods up. You only have to listen to the phone-ins directly after a match finishes to hear some ridiculous opinions being aired. We all bleed when AFC lose. Let's hope Bard and the rest of us aren't left feeling 'p****d off' after the game at Stoke. 'Hard work beats talent, if talent doesn't work hard.'

  94. Amos

    Feb 28, 2014, 21:22 #46648

    On the contrary I'm being particularly succinct today jeff! Embracing context is a genuine aid in that objective. Whereas avoiding the context just encourages those bent on obfuscation.

  95. jeff wright

    Feb 28, 2014, 21:15 #46647

    I was referring to Wenger not winning anything Chris , but there again no one lasts long with Rom even if they do! So perhaps you are right.On that. My point about Rom demanding success as being the reason for his managers winning trophies though still stands. Amos you are again prevaricating.

  96. Chris

    Feb 28, 2014, 20:49 #46646

    Jeff - Suggesting that Wenger wouldn't last long with Rom isn't one of your brightest comments. Even the rooky di Matteo, who couldn't cut it at West Brom, won the CL at Chelsea. You really do let your preconceptions get in the way of thought Jeff - it's as if everything has to fit in with one or two simplistic notions you've come up with to (mis-)understand the world...

  97. Amos

    Feb 28, 2014, 20:41 #46645

    Managers like Allardyce or Pulis would have won something with Chelsea over the last 8 years given the resources that have been employed. The credit for success is 90% Abramovich's as the record clearly shows - and probably football itself for permitting competition to be distorted for so long.

  98. Amos

    Feb 28, 2014, 20:30 #46644

    You're being a little harsh on yourself jeff! You most certainly can make it up and frequently do. I haven't blamed your grasshopper for anything. I've simply questioned your wisdom in depending on them for guidance. :)

  99. jeff wright

    Feb 28, 2014, 20:29 #46643

    Amos,Rom it's because Rom demands success at Chelsea that his managers produce it... your point doesn't make any sense Rom provides the money but the managers still have to win trophies. Wenger wouldn't last long with Rom or Perez either.

  100. jeff wright

    Feb 28, 2014, 20:19 #46642

    SGRB,Amos is not just struggling with your frog and grasshopper he also twice blamed my grasshopper for comments made by the master! Coming from someone who pedantically and obsessively demands perfect detail from others this is just not good enough. You couldn't make it up.

  101. Amos

    Feb 28, 2014, 20:14 #46641

    Everyone one in football knows Arsenal haven't won anything in 8 years but as most clubs don't win anything and many for much longer periods than AFC or Wenger then it isn't possible to specialise in failure as failure is the norm. Mourinho was wrong on that count. On the other hand as most Chelsea managers have won something in the last 8 years or so (and even Avram Grant got to a CL final losing only on penalties)there is little special in managers winning trophies as clearly it is Abramovich who is specialising in success.

  102. jjetplane

    Feb 28, 2014, 20:13 #46640

    Mighty stuff there Ron and I salute your excellent analysis of 'Fear and Loathing in the PL'. It really is a case of billionaires on the one side playing the game of caution and little risk verses billionaires with egos to match their assets. When all is said and done the whole thing stinks to high heaven. Listen to Robbie Savage for a minute and you get the drift upwind. When's the book Ron?

  103. Chris

    Feb 28, 2014, 20:07 #46639

    Ron - Wenger was replying to a question about managers other than himself and Pellegrini - so he definitely wasn't referring to Man City in any way shape or form. My view is Wenger himself was once fearful of failure - I think the reaction to Game 50 at OT demonstrates that to us. As Bobby Robson intimated - he had to learn to lose. And I think AW took that on board, and that lead him to take on a project that was effectively a hiding to nothing - namely, trying to keep Arsenal at the top table (top 4) and commercially successful in the years around the stadium move. Against that background, Wenger has learnt to lose more gracefully and in doing so, has probably lost his fear of it - at the same time as cintinually achieving what would be consdiered great success by at least 16 clubs in the PL. Mourinho is a million miles from thee - he is as scared to be unsuccessful as he probably is to die. He moves from rich club to rich club, laying waste to long term relationships in the pursuit of success - or, to avoid failure. Basically, yes, Mourinho is a 'winner' - but he's stunted as a man. Wenger hit the nail right in the head with his comment and reasoning for why Mo continually ruled Chelski out of the PL race and talked down expectations - and Mourinho knew it. Wenger still - rightly or wrongly - holds back from trying to maximise immediate success because he thinks it's for the best in the mid-term and he can only do that because he has learnt not to fear failure. That may infuriate people (including myself at times) but it makes him a decent human in my book.

  104. frankytheswede

    Feb 28, 2014, 19:45 #46638

    damn ron i wonder what wenger would think if he read that post lol its tit for tat mourinho says i dont need 8 years i just want my contract or something along the lines, wenger talks about the transfer of mata it just goes back and forth but ron you are right wenger has no reply to the specialist in failure remark from mou. lol i never really thought of it until now what could he say lol

  105. Ron

    Feb 28, 2014, 19:23 #46637

    As far as the Wenger/Mourinho exchange goes Alex, the press and media love Arsene and they love the way the Club sets up its briefings and press gatherings. They've often said as much. In terms of the bad guy good guy scene youve painted, its a little fanciful. AW knew exactly who he was talking about with his 'fear to fail' commment. Chelsea and MC plus a few from europe doubtless. Mourinho responded by stating the AW is 'specialist in failure'.Whether or not Mourinho took Wenger's comments personally is neither here nor there, his riposte carried weight at worst and is the truth at best if his definition of failure is the non existent trophy haul of Arsenals since 2005, esp in comparison to his own record in the same period. You say Wengers non reply was a show of integrity (i think you're saying that at least aren't you?). Perhaps Wenger thought there was no riposte to give and erred on the side of sensibility? Lets face it, what could Wenger say? Well, he cd have trotted out 'top 4' every year since 2005 and whipped out a copy of Arsenals profit and loss account granted. But a football reply? Was there one that wouldn't have made him look a chump? A trophy desert 8 years long does not an argument make in my view. The thing with Wenger is that hes widened the definition of 'success' beyond sensible meaning, by defining his record in the last 8 years. His method is not simply a football version of success, its success in the wider commercial meaning of the word to an extent, but even then its flawed. No successful business survives by selling its main productive assets year on year to end up with an accounts sheet that shows profits entirely resulting from such sales. Only football can operate like that. Wenger takes advantage of it and hes allowed too by an employer that happy with profits from howsoever they come.The acid test of Wengers continuance is to see how it plays out and how his definition is supported by those above him now that he has no more high value assets to sell. He may simply do a Fergie and get out while his stock is still decent and leave the rebuild of an average asset base to a new incumbent. Mourinho on the other hand, works from a different plane. His raison det re is to win trophies without which those above him, will sack him and he ll maybe even sack himself. His bottom line is to hoover up silver cups. You can see the narrowness of his ambit cant you? So where does the integrity lie? Wenger in his hidden attack on the Clubs with cash and who spend it and not following his comments up or Mourinho in telling the truth by his definition and sounding callous and disrespectful in doing so? My view is that Wenger accidentally caused mischief with his comments. Mourinho was right to react in the way he did, as the Wenger comments are so vacuous seeing as he s sat astride a blank sheet of footballing achievements for 8 years. How are Chelsea and MC fearful of failure? They're very set up is designed to succeed under a coach who knows he s out if it fails. Those coaches in such Clubs know and accept it, so wheres the fear to fail? The Clubs themselves don't seem to have any fear of failing as if the blue print hits a glich, they change the blueprint and the people who are paid well to make it work. Wengers comments were no more than reflective if his year on year ever tedious diatribes against those Clubs, his resentment festers like an un lanced boil on your backside. He peddles it to mask his own failure in my view. That's not integrity, that being disingenuous and using spin, to dress up and support his own nonsensical definition of success.Wengers has no fear of failure, ill give him that. In Wengers world constructed by himself and assisted by non football oriented bosses, its not possible to fail from a footballing perspective, judged by Mourinho's criteria of failure, so Wengers web of spin has once again lured you and no doubt many others into a belief that hes whiter than white once more, leaving Mourinho as the braggart and puffed up as you say. In many ways he is, but on this occasion he showed Wenger up for what he is, a mealy mouthed peddler of spin and as such Wengers silence was telling. He does specialize in failure. The last 8 years tells you he does. The galling thing from a footballing viewpoint, is that he revels and rejoices in it.

  106. maguiresbridge gooner

    Feb 28, 2014, 19:13 #46636

    The press kept it going for as long as they could alright but it fizzled out very quickly in the end ( although if this season turns out like the last eight expect it to take light again very quickly and burn for a lot longer) and wasn't turned into a spat due to OGL not hitting back, maybe there was another reason for that rather than just his integrity.

  107. jjetplane

    Feb 28, 2014, 19:11 #46635

    Bard - you got it there. Wenger is just another manager when we look at the last eight years. At one point he was an elevation above that, but that is long gone. We have a little Indian summer at the moment and one trophy would be nice but another hefty contract would be absurd if we gain any real momentum from this season. Franftheswede has reminded us again of some of the misfits bought over the past few years and those that come good who then incannily turn into crocks. Hard to really get passionate about it when the Ryman Cup is on the horizon.

  108. Amos

    Feb 28, 2014, 19:08 #46634

    @SGRB. Yeah definitely in danger of drifting into the abstract but context is what this issue is about really. Had Mourinho understood, or rather had the press media allowed him to understand the context of Wenger's comment he may not have felt the need to react as he did. The press dress it up as manager's mind games but really they are more guilty of playing with the minds of the managers. They already know they can play with the minds of many of their headline/soundbite addicted readers. Which is a point the article alludes to bring us further back on track.

  109. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Feb 28, 2014, 18:55 #46633

    Amos, I agree context isn't evasion. It can be (mis)used as evasion though, as well as to facilitate understanding. I think we're definitely getting off topic now (or rather too abstract)...

  110. Amos

    Feb 28, 2014, 18:41 #46632

    @SGRB. At least I've given you pause for thought then! I feel my contributions could yet be vindicated! Context isn't evasion though. Its necessity is in not allowing understanding to be evaded.

  111. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Feb 28, 2014, 18:34 #46631

    @ Amos, hmmm... I see a contradiction, though I'd concede there is a certain consistency in still using the shield of 'context' to evade the frog.

  112. Finsbury Joe

    Feb 28, 2014, 18:31 #46630

    Please do not insult a great man and serial winner by mentioning him in the same breath, sentence and showing him in the same picture as the specialist in failure, arsene wenger. Integrity, Gooners want silverware, and will not get it while this man who perverts the very nature of sporting competition remains in charge.

  113. Bard

    Feb 28, 2014, 18:28 #46629

    Westie i agree harmony on the terraces, get behind the team its the afterwards thats the problem. I can only venture my opinion that its about winning or losing. if we win I'm very happy if we lose I'm p****d off. If we lose and we've played well and its sunny day I'm still p****d off. If we win and its a terrible match played in pouring rain I'm a happy man. Whether Wenger is a nice guy or a villain frankly doesn't really interest me. He's the current guardian of the team rewarded handsomely to win matches and trophies. To date he is potless for over 8 years and presided over a few of the most embarrassing debacles I've had the misfortune to watch. I don't believe a record like that currently merits uncritical support

  114. Amos

    Feb 28, 2014, 18:27 #46628

    @SGRB. Nah! You've missed by a mile! The difference is that between abuse and good natured mocking of those resorting to abuse.

  115. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Feb 28, 2014, 18:22 #46627

    @Amos: "when you only have abuse left with which to respond then you have lost the argument" ... "I agree there isn't an argument to be won here". As the frog said to the grasshopper - gotcha!

  116. Amos

    Feb 28, 2014, 17:50 #46626

    I'm not sure that the Disney Jiminy Cricket character you seem to rely on for guidance serves you very well jeff but you can only use the resources available to you I guess. I agree that there isn't an argument to be won here which makes it all the more surprising that you have to resort to abuse to attempt to win it. There're points to be made though. Even when they're overdependent on the wisdom of grasshoppers. :)

  117. Amos

    Feb 28, 2014, 17:37 #46625

    I get out plenty Ron. Travel broadens the mind which allows you to see beyond the superficial I find. I agree that supporting a point with evidence based argument is frustrating for those who find superficial debate more comfortable but we needn't allow that minor inconvenience to dissuade anyone from doing so. I didn't say that Mourinho was unintelligent at all but again a superficial scan of my comment might be mistaken as doing so. As for what life reward's have granted me I'm more than sorted I'm pleased to say. So much so that I can take the time to contribute to this forum. I presume your success permits you the same indulgence?

  118. Green Hut

    Feb 28, 2014, 17:36 #46624

    People are lacking sympathy because Wenger knew exactly who the original question was most referring to, and he had the opportunity to answer 'I don't know, you'd have to ask them' (remarkable he didn't considering he spends most of his time being non-committal about everything), but needlessly chose to invite The Spiteful One to mock our last 8 years of nothingness. Westlower, supporting a bad manager is the opposite of supporting the club.

  119. jeff wright

    Feb 28, 2014, 17:30 #46623

    Amos,you never had an argument to win,and a joke is not abuse.Ron is right though I am potty indulging you in your nonsensical tete a tetes so au revoir ... and as the master said to grasshopper...at the feast of ego, everyone leaves hungry.

  120. Ron

    Feb 28, 2014, 17:13 #46622

    Amos - Can i respectfully suggest that you start to get out a bit more. Theres little worse than a pseudo intellectual. Searching for your empirically accurate evidence to back every point made by everybody to support what are largely loosely held views on a football meassage board really is tiresome. I note youve said Mourinho is uninntelligent too. Amazing. I suspect his lack of wit and grey matter has served him better in seeking life's rewards than yours have you. Lets face it, youre here and hes there isnt he. I once suggested that you would have the last word if youre head was sythed off and rolling down the road. You dont change do you. Jeff - youre as potty, indulging him. Have a good week end all.

  121. frankytheswede

    Feb 28, 2014, 17:05 #46621

    great piece mmm mourinho talks a lot of crap that the masses eat up what does he care he keeps winning trophys that is why people regard him as the best in the bizz he will win lots of trophys at chelsea its a cert, people like to make excuses about why we have won f all blah blah blah i love wenger and what hes done for this club but im not oblivious to the mans limitations he cannot compete with a manager like mourinho. i dont know how we will finish this season i hope for a trophy but in the summer mourinho will fine tune chelseas squad and dominate unless big changes are made. has this club done everything it can over the past 4 seasons to challenge for trophys no the opposite in fact we have stuck with players that are not of the calibre required and rewarded said players with huge contracts all the while cashing in on the few gems we have had fab nasri vpersie cole vieira should have ended his career at arsenal could have made the difference in 08 and than all the lies and bull coming from the club wenger we have money but we want quality or something like that lol goes out and brings in santos park gervinho lmfao

  122. Amos

    Feb 28, 2014, 17:05 #46620

    Rather desperate pleading from you there jeff! Did your grasshopper ever tell you that when you only have abuse left with which to respond then you have lost the argument? Your favourite really should be context though if you're to get anything out of this exchange. :)

  123. Chris

    Feb 28, 2014, 16:56 #46619

    I think Wenger has become the object of frustration for a lot of fans who are disappointed by the lack of trophies. If they were truly objective, they would see many of their criticisms don't bare scrutiny but they are emotionally invested in the results and need to vent their frustration on something. Surely it's NOT all about just winning or losing, is it? Supporting a football club is much more than that, even of we all feel much better about winning for obvious reasons...

  124. CT Gooner

    Feb 28, 2014, 16:53 #46618

    @Westlower you are right, it is very difficult to support your club when you have no respect for your manager. I think what upsets me more is the abuse we have to take from AKBs for expressing our dissatisfaction of what's going on at our once great club, being told to F off to the lane and the likes. I for one do love Arsenal, but I have no time for Arsene. I see him as a disease, killing us slowly from within.

  125. DJ

    Feb 28, 2014, 16:51 #46617

    Purely on coaching ability alone Mourinho is a superb tactician and I would bet on him to win any must win match. However, it doesn't stop him being an odious creep who often oversteps the mark. The worst case being when he gouged the eyes of the then Barcelona assistant manager and then sneaked off leaving the mayhem he created.

  126. Westlower

    Feb 28, 2014, 16:51 #46616

    @Bard, If winning & losing is all that matters we are in trouble. Since I first attended Arsenal games in 60/61 to 1995/96, AFC lost 445 league games. Tolerance of our managers must have been so much greater than it is today. The way the game is heading we'd better prepare to recruit a new manager every month, in which case some revolving doors will need to be installed at the Emirates. Next manager please, and your name is? The Spuds run their club in that manner, AFC do not! I reserve the right to defend all AFC managers & players as much as you do to criticise them. All I know is AW will be the manager of AFC at least until the end of the season. Your criticism of him will not alter that. It's therefore not unreasonable to support & encourage the guy to do his best in going for the domestic double. The managerial situation may need reviewing at the end of the season but not now, as it causes disruption, not harmony.

  127. jeff wright

    Feb 28, 2014, 16:49 #46615

    Amos, your ramblings are becoming even more ludicrous and bringing into them old first form student type 'leveraged debt' comments to try and claim that you know what you are going on about doesn't make your them any more sensible. Your amortizing wages is my fav ,keep em coming though we need some light entertainment to distract from reality now and then . As the master said to grasshopper,man **** into cash register come into money .

  128. radfordkennedy

    Feb 28, 2014, 16:30 #46614

    Amos...i dont really think you can accuse Mourhino of lacking intelligence,hes very clever at deflecting attention and pressure away from his team by making deliberately offensive or ridiculous statements.There is always a comment about a team or official or even the opposing manager in a forthcoming game and all the while his team are pretty much left alone by the media to sneak up on the rails to take top spot...i wouldnt say he lacks intelligence at all mate

  129. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Feb 28, 2014, 16:27 #46613

    @Amos, people here are 'allowed' to make one point then move on to make a further point without being penalised for 'losing focus' or 'looking away' from the issue. You are aware you're posting in an informal football blog and not an academic journal, aren't you? Perhaps we should campaign for the OG to introduce paragraphing.

  130. Amos

    Feb 28, 2014, 16:23 #46612

    The fact that you feel compelled to respond rather belies your confused claim that you're looking away from reading my posts jeff. Sadly you're only responding to the straw men that you're building for yourself. At least your claim is consistent with your appreciation of context though. Kroenke wasn't telling United fans not to be concerned about the impact of leveraged debt. It was a very different question he was responding to. At the same time Kroenke clearly isn't an advocate of the practice of leveraged debt which should also add to the context of his observations on US sporting businesses practices. However, you're confusing my support for the value of context with support of Kroenke. I'm not concerned at all with who owns the club only that the club continues to be run in the same self sustaining manner.

  131. jjetplane

    Feb 28, 2014, 16:20 #46611

    Bit of a Simon Rose here. You just know what is coming in the second paragraph. 'You bloody lot with little faith' .... I have seen the Arsenal and lived them for the best part of a half century and what makes football football is the currency of crazy banter that comes with it. I can admire the aesthetic all day long with the likes of Messi and our dear Ozil but also appreciate the job Pulis is doing at Palace. There was a time I liked Chelsea (er when was that?) but the Mourinho bull I have never bought into. Saying that no one can deny that Wenger just loves talking about other teams and dishing out the cod philosophy so the Groooniad can print it. Worst thing about that is he drops a competitive self in favour of being a likeable soul. Being a likeable soul is not gonna win anyone anything. He does not need to stoop to the objectionable (as in using the term 'peasant' like some do) but he could take a couple of leaves out of Keano's ! book and tell it how it is. Anyway - enough of the blabber. Stoke - it's over! Ozil will deliver the sword ....

  132. jeff wright

    Feb 28, 2014, 16:08 #46610

    The only issue that I AM looking away from is one of reading your nonsense regarding what you claim that Stan meant and what he could have said if he had felt inclined to do so . I prefer , if you don't mind Amos to make my own judgement on Stan's : If I were a supporter of United I would go Wow! At what the Glazer's have achieved, comments. , The reality is that he was wrong to tell the United supporters that they were wrong to have concerns about the way that the Glazer's were running United. The club was winning trophies and making money before they arrived - and it is all rather silly really on Stan's part to try and claim the glory for this as being down to Malcolm and sons , who have saddled the club with huge debts that they themselves have incurred. Your slavish support for Stan is rather touching,although I do get the impression that you could start an argument in an empty room just for the sake of it.

  133. WeAreBuildingATeamToDominate

    Feb 28, 2014, 16:04 #46609

    I read an interesting view on the whole issue of newspapers reporting stories. (written by a journalist themselves). "The fact of the story may be a banality. It may be a banliity. It may not even be a fact at all, unless proved to the contrary. But to the journalist covering the story, it is the truth." They are not called reporters for nothing. They report on what someone is telling them. If you stick a microphone under someones' nose and ask them a question, the reply is dutifully noted and filed. Journalists love Maureen (and 'Arry) because they talk a lot, which does the journalists' job for them.

  134. Amos

    Feb 28, 2014, 15:39 #46608

    If are you gazing skywards jeff then that may explain why you're losing focus. Your crystal ball gazing and Mystic Meg style predictions about the dire future for ManU may or may not be proved correct but that wasn't the question that Kroenke was responding to - which is where the why and when elements of context are important. Had he been asked to comment on the wisdom of leveraged debt he might well have pointed out that he has never at any time embraced that device with any of the businesses, sporting or otherwise, that he is or has been involved in. As entertaining as it might be to contemplate ManU's towers crumbling (though I think it might be a tad premature - they're still a massive revenue generating machine)I think that you're rather looking away from the issue.

  135. jeff wright

    Feb 28, 2014, 15:29 #46607

    Amos,you are at it again pointing at aeroplanes,I know what Stan was saying at the time but the concerns of many of the United supporters were about the long-term consequences of what the Glazers were bringing to the table,not the short term ones. They have been proven right and Stan wrong. There is already a panic situation at United as it dawns on the Glazer's that the party is over and that the waiter has delivered the bill. The panic buying of Mata , along with the massive pay rise and contract awarded to Rooney are examples of this with no champions league money next season to help offset the repayments on loans that the Glazer's owe and other 'stars' having seen what Rooney is on wanting to get their snouts in the trough. Any new top signings wil also expect a tribute to their staus and then there is the lack of Champions League football as well to consider. A period of midtable mediocrity could be on the cards now for United. A case of what comes around comes around and the sight of a gloom looking gruppenfuhrer Ferguson sitting brooding in the directors box will not make any difference . He saw it coming anyway that's why he's sitting there instead of standing on the touchline intimidating match officials.

  136. chris dee

    Feb 28, 2014, 15:21 #46605

    A manager once berated,hounded,ridiculed and attacked a referee for so long after his team lost a football match that the referee's wife and two young daughters received threats from fans caught up in the managers moronic frenzy.The referee retired immediately. The referee was Anders Frisk the manager Jose Mourinho. But of course our press who become a bunch of giggling schoolgirls in the presence of this Drama Queen ignore such trivial matters and go into orgasms when he makes his smart arse little quips.

  137. Bard

    Feb 28, 2014, 15:19 #46604

    Westlower; Rather like Maureen, you can't seem help yourself with the same old digs at anyone who's critical of Wenger. The latest grumble is you can't see how you can support the club with a passion and be critical of the manager. I don't think I can really enlighten you perhaps Scientology might also be your cup of tea. They are another organisation that doesn't tolerate criticism. Im no fan of Maureen's public persona although its no different from Fergie's but I would happily support a bit of nastiness from Wenger if it meant we win something. While he's not controversial like Maureen. He spouts b******s most of the time. Bottom line its all about winning or losing that all that matters.

  138. jeff wright

    Feb 28, 2014, 15:07 #46603

    Ron, that's a good point about how other managers are perceived as being boorish and thick in regard to suave 'le prof' Arsene by some. In fact the Portuguese peasant jibe in the article about Mourinho is a another example of it.

  139. Amos

    Feb 28, 2014, 15:05 #46602

    Why are you feeling patronised jeff? ....and should I feel concerned about resembling Badarse? He seems like an interesting poster to me. Stan didn't give any advice to the United faithful (that's where the need for context comes in). He merely pointed out, at the time (and the time is relevant) that ManU had continued to win trophies under the Glazer while the Glazers presided over massive revenue growth since they took control. It should also be remembered that ManU had previously frequently and regularly paid dividends to the previous shareholders (just to aid the context). Again proper understanding of US sports would show that Kroenke US teams are not, in the context of US sports teams, meandering along in mediocrity.

  140. Ron

    Feb 28, 2014, 15:02 #46601

    Theres not a manager in that PL who hasnt committed a major booby in their dealngs with the media. Often they wade in and look daft and at other times they respond poorly. Im always amazed at how Arsene gets drawn in at times to makinng poor naive responses, when its clear hes been set up by the media, esp when hes hurt or put out. At other times, he fails to respond when a good opportunity to do so avails him. After all the years hes been here, he isnt always very good at handling the media sharks. Mourinho can make some very telling comments and observations which are hard to disagree with. At other times hes just a boorish rude fool. They all have their moments. I wouldnt like to create a 'league table of integrity' really. None would score too highly i suspect. Its often hard to detect. For eg i reckon Sam Allardyce has good integrity deep down but as hes big and a bit in yer face and speaks with an odd hybrid, north west/west midlands accent hes deemed as ignorant and disregarding of others etc etc

  141. jeff wright T

    Feb 28, 2014, 14:56 #46600

    Amos,you are starting to resemble Badarse with your patronizing comments. I know that Stan was comparing attitudes to the way he and the Glazer's operate between the UK's ones and the USA's . Then again he do that wouldn't he? The fact that Stan's advice to the United faithful has now been proven wrong, and the supporters right, regarding the financial way in which their previous debt free club was run,is I suppose irrelevant then? However, the fact that Stan was using the Glazer's to support his own right to take money from AFC for his personal use is what we should be worrying about. It's also a fact that Stan's clubs in the US meander along in mediocrity and that this is something that he is happy with.

  142. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Feb 28, 2014, 14:45 #46599

    It's a weak mind that cannot divorce supporting your club from supporting the incumbent manager. Unconditional support for individuals within an institution leads to a lack of accountability and scrutiny.

  143. Amos

    Feb 28, 2014, 14:38 #46598

    Context is all important in understanding not just what was said but why, where and when it was said. Apply the context and both Wenger's general response to a general question - along with Kroenke's comments made getting on for 3 years ago now about different sporting philosophies in the US - are perfectly reasonable. It takes a little effort to seek out and understand the proper context but it's worth it if the interest is genuine.

  144. Terry

    Feb 28, 2014, 14:36 #46597

    If you watched Wengers interviews in full you would see that the last thing on his mind is to want to get involved in a tit for tat with fools like Mourinho. Mourinho is an attention seeking baby who craves scandal,it's such a shame that some of our fans the so called Wob's cannot see through it and revert to Stoke Orc status whenever the media attacks Wenger.

  145. jeff wright

    Feb 28, 2014, 14:14 #46594

    Far be it from me to defend the odious one but it should be pointed out that Mourinho was responding to comments made by Wenger, when he made his specializing in failure retorts about Arsene. Wenger himself is never slow at coming forward to comment on anything if prompted to do so. Especially with regard to the way some clubs run their financial affairs . Then we have had Stan lectoring United supporters who are anti-Glazer on why they should be grateful for them owning United . You know it makes sense.

  146. Amos

    Feb 28, 2014, 14:08 #46593

    I don't think Mourinho lacks integrity as much as he lacks intelligence. He foolishly fell into a trap set up by the press who having collected the bait from a general answer to a general question at Wenger's press conference earlier the same day then presented that as though Wenger had made a direct claim about Mourinho in order for Mourinho to provide the story. In truth only the reporter asking the question of Wenger could've known for sure who he had in mind. I suppose if there is an issue of integrity it would be that, having established what was really said, Jose lacked the integrity to acknowledge that he'd been set up. Having said that few expect any integrity from the press who were the real villains of this whole story.

  147. Westlower

    Feb 28, 2014, 14:06 #46592

    Alex has highlighted how the media try and influence the news rather than simply report on actual events. They love Maureen because he always has an opinion on others problems. The Wenger Out Brigade feast on Maureen's remarks as confirmation that their own judgement's have been verified. Arsenal supporters rowing in with a Chelsea mans point of view doesn't rest easy with me. In my mind you cannot divorce supporting your club from supporting the incumbent manager, whoever he is. This appears to be a new phenomenon, whereby some blame the manager for defeats but refuse to acknowledge he has played even a minor part in a victory. How you can support your club through a mix of hatred for the manager & selected players yet still claim undying love for the club is beyond my mindset. I can only conclude that certain individuals political aspirations in wanting to oust the board & manager is far greater than their support for AFC. It's a weak mind that can't accept a defeat without wanting to hurt those they deem responsible.

  148. theopants superstar

    Feb 28, 2014, 13:46 #46591

    If you are right and Arsene truly doesn't want to play the media's 'vacuous game', then why or why does he insist on answering questions on other clubs put to him by those same people when he knows full well they are trying to illicit something to start a controversy? Why doesn't he use that 'integrity' to say "No comment" and thus give them no material for a story more often than he does? Surely he has been in this country long enough and has sufficient experience of suffering at the hands of these people to know better?