What if...?

The slightest of margins can alter the course of history… and perception



What if...?

You grumbling lot


"Oh yes, and the ball is put through to Groves. Can he finish? Oh my word, he can! He has equalised and there may not even be time to centre the ball before the final whistle is blown." That was an imaginary commentary from Chelsea versus Arsenal, a 'what if' moment on Saturday 2nd February 1991, with Perry Groves equalising at the Bridge in the dying seconds, making Arsenal - that season- Invincible.

"Well would you believe it? A penalty in front of the North Bank to save the unbeaten season and Henry hits the post. So Arsenal failed to repeat their unbeaten season of '91. Even Vieira came close to rescuing it near the end but the linesman gave offside, though the cameras clearly suggest otherwise. So near, yet so far. A 'what if?' moment against Leicester City on Saturday 15th May 2004.

Football history hangs by a thread, blowing in a breeze of uncertainty. Any number of minute incidents can create that 'butterfly effect', to change an eventual outcome. That isn't news to anyone, but the ramifications are generally overlooked or quite naturally dismissed because there are so many variations possible. We live in the now. Time is rapidly rushing past us, and there is a limited period in which to reflect and recognise a sense of realism beyond the immediate.

Nobody would suggest a course in yoga is required, or an intense session in deep meditation needed to assess and maintain a healthy balance of understanding. We can engage, and often do, especially with those things in life that leap out and bite us in an unexpected fashion - those things we consider vital and important. Yet we seem to find it difficult to focus our considerations on more mundane matters, like football and supporting Arsenal. It is a form of reductionism. Football? It's just twenty two people kicking a piece of leather around. No; look deeper. It is so much more. Then so too are the problems of everyday football support and understanding them.

Anything I write will be considered 'psychobabble' by those most likely to benefit from the message these words carry, and they will sit shaking their heads. At the other end of the spectrum there is the group who can readily connect with the theme, and will be sitting nodding. I cannot influence one set and have no wish to change the comprehension of the other; it is that broad swath of people in between that I am really addressing. To reaffirm a weakening viewpoint to any of either camp who perhaps have a sense of conflict over points raised on forums, twitter or blogs, the media, or even in everyday face-to-face chats, and feel a brand of uncertainty that perhaps needs dispelling, it is not enough to say 'It didn't happen that way'. I am aware of that. My point is that it could so easily have panned out differently and that circumstance demands respect and recognition. There is the balance.

I listed two Arsenal historical events. Flimsy and fickle circumstance which can influence to a degree beyond its value. 'You get nowt for being second', was a Billy Bremner biography. Reductionism - though it helped to sell the book. Hard-nosed and gritty, but in English language sense it is tosh; in influencing minds it is dangerous. A much more astute and revealingly honest title was, 'That's the way the ball bounces', by our own Frank McLintock. A grasp of reality in a book title. (Seems that for the rest of my life I shall be thanking you in one way or another, Frank).

If you are still with me, you can list any Arsenal-related event and imagine a slightly different outcome, and all would be influential. WHL 1971, Ray scores; from the KO Willow doesn't prevent Mullery from toeing the ball past him, 1-1, and Leeds are champions. On the Saturday, Heighway scores a minute earlier in the last minute of normal time, not the first of extra time. McLintock, 'always the bridesmaid, never the bride', carries his Wembley record of six cup final defeats to the grave. Linighan's header is saved and Arsenal are beaten on penalties. Nayim's shot is tipped over by 'Safe Hands' and we become the only club to defend the ECWC by winning on penalties. The 'Nutty' boy's penalty goes in and Luton are buried; they cannot register a last-minute winner by a namesake, Brian Stein.

It is obvious that these situations could have permeated our combined psyches, but would they have affected our corporate views? I think so. Instead we have the accounts and outcomes registered, which clearly have held sway. If this point is accepted then scratch the surface and dig a little deeper in more pertinent areas. Jens in 2006 doesn't see, or get, red. We hold onto Sol's goal and Titi tucks away that one-on-one. Champions of Europe. It was that close.

The following year we see off Chelsea. Having led and dominated the first 30 minutes we knock in a second - the cup is ours. In 2011, Koscielny hoofs the ball into row 'Z', and we put four past Birmingham in extra time. The tackle misses Dudu's shin and we roll all over Birmingham; in May we are crowned deserved champions. These are frivolous scenarios, but very plausible alternatives. Yet that is my point, a plea to re-evaluate. The difference between success and failure is often wafer-thin. We should judge them as such. Michael Thomas was tackled before he delivered the coup de grace at Anfield, so that iconic season can never be trotted out as a defining season of grit, and a never-say-die attitude. More; George Graham failed. He was unable to motivate a side who were looking at the title. He allowed them to lose to Derby, and more importantly let them slide into a draw against no-hopers Wimbledon, and at home.

Of course it didn't happen in any other way than history tells it. Yet what if it had? Would we still have people bemoaning our fate at AFC, complaining that our prospects are bleak? I think so. Probably slightly differently, but moaning all the same. Just as I am convinced that people will still gripe when Arsène, superseded by a new manager at some time in the future, fails to fulfil their expectations. There are no guarantees in life - for many there is no guarantee of life.

Perspective is vitally important, or judgement is affected, and we are all lost. Fans insisted Fellaini was the man we should buy. What happened to him? Moyes or Laudrup should take the reins. What happened to them?. Hound Gervinho from the Grove so that he can set Italian football alight. Sanogo (who may become a Big Gun), is a dire purchase. Those clamouring for, and railing against, those individuals would by default have perhaps earned the sack. I say to them, spend half a day in football. To the impressionable rest I say, be true to your views, but always apply the consideration of perspective, because without it your views are hollow.

Why do AFC fans grumble today? Simply because they can. In days of yore it couldn't happen; there were no avenues open to pursue any narrative with anyone, least of all the club. Now we have the facility available to anyone who wants to vent their spleen, so they do. What of people today? Well politically we are media-led, and so too in footballing terms. Sky (The Sun of visual football) has a lot to answer for; so too the 'pundits', the newspapers, 'Talk Sport' buffoons, and the big loudmouth in the pub with the pint in his hand. Infinite gems of wisdom cascading from their biased collective comprehensions. Bigotry, secret agendas, and half-truths spilling forth constantly. Is it any wonder that these, often inexperienced outpourings muddy the waters of clear-thought processes?

This doesn't mean many views are not valid. Articulate, well-reasoned and insightful some individuals' opinions may be, but they mask the limits of the hordes behind them, those carrying the lighted torches and shaking their fists at the 'monster'. The observation is that many have no concept of the same things they accuse the club of lacking. Integrity. Good manners. Respect. Consideration. And I could go on. Much of the ranting I've witnessed is of a very poor level. Sometimes homophobia creeps in. A soft form of racism can rear its head. Ageism and sexism are not strangers to the rants. People addressing a group of well-intentioned fans, albeit possibly misguided - certainly in their opinions, label them with acronyms, and seem regularly to spit out the vitriol. Often rudeness and insensitivity become de rigueur in exchanges. Then attitudes are pursued akin to those who suffer on the autistic spectrum. ADHD, ADD, OCD, are these at fault? I have some experience in these matters, and usually one of these authentic acronyms could describe some behavioural patterns of repetition. So perhaps this goes some way towards explaining the on-going conflict between those entrenched outlooks?

Personally, I believe the initial starting point is at the crux of the matter. If an individual, an Arsenal fan, begins from a position of believing a season-ticket purchase, or for that matter a single admission ticket, gives them the right to demand anything beyond that which they receive, they are mistaken. It gives what it says on the ticket, a PL game. No more, no less. We all hold a point of view, but the rumbustious and the blustering, the aggressive and the bloody-minded win no favours. If they cannot impress me, what chance of impressing the board, gentlemen?

The editor of this fanzine and its website holds differing views to me regarding the manager's tenure. However, despite his frustrations he conducts himself admirably, full of respect and offering a well-balanced and constructive case for a change of leadership. Who cannot respect that? I would naturally go with that if it occurred, but see little sense in the same argument continuing ad infinitum in the shape of a bun fight. As I write, we are still in with a shout for the PL, the CL, and the FA Cup. Let's hope that shout is in a loud voice, but somehow I think it shan't be. Oh, and Westlower, I claim my 70% discount for your AFC (Aged Farts Compound), and would be honoured to stand with you.


NEW! Subscribe to our weekly Gooner Fanzine newsletter for all the latest news, views, and videos from the intelligent voice of Arsenal supporters since 1987.

Please note that we will not share your email address with any 3rd parties.


Article Rating

Leave a comment

Sign-in with your Online Gooner forum login to add your comment. If you do not have a login register here.

125
comments

  1. Finsbury Joe

    Mar 09, 2014, 23:32 #47209

    Spurs can still mathematically be champions.

  2. Vin

    Mar 09, 2014, 20:12 #47196

    What If city had not hit the post earlier? But now a semi against Wigan we really do have a great chance of winning meaningful silverware No counting chickens, but surely this time..... Let's hope our semi ticket allocation gets scaled up as Wigan only sold 19000 for last years semi

  3. James

    Mar 09, 2014, 9:59 #47178

    Finsbury Joe, Please tell us what the point is for the existence of the spuds. A team who has finished mid-table with the occasional slump to the second division since the 70's, who can never be relied upon to get a result even when you want them to. They will and always will be the Stoke of the south.

  4. WeAreBuildingATeamToDominate

    Mar 09, 2014, 7:51 #47176

    Fins; big shout going out to your boys who gave me a good laugh last night with their slapstick defending. Class.

  5. Finsbury Joe

    Mar 09, 2014, 0:59 #47175

    A very flattering result helped out by a biased homer ref. Everton were very hard done by, this side stands no chance if they face City

  6. jjetplane

    Mar 08, 2014, 18:23 #47174

    Just before we got the penalty Arteta was beginning to grate with the whinging. But did we ever need him to take a penalty/s. If he had taken that spot against Bayern (oh bollocks!) but was not Ozil a happy bunny when Art put the second one away. Think at that point Everton saw the signs and went flat when they needed to turn it up resulting in that goal that had shades of Petit (Wimbledon) Arshavin (Barcelona). So a semi final and everybody on board saying the FA Cup is one big lump of silver. Ozil had a great game but the Ox made all the difference. Giroud was Smudger at his best so well done you gunners! We beat Ampthill and also go for a semi final so a lovely day full of tense play.

  7. Green Hut

    Mar 08, 2014, 16:52 #47173

    BADARSE- As ever, if you're happy I'm happy.

  8. WENGER OUT

    Mar 08, 2014, 16:33 #47172

    We saw the real Mesut Ozil today, a faultless performance. Still can't help but think he's playing within himself due to the lack of runners - The Ox must play every game until the end of the season, he's the difference! He's had 6 months off, there really is no call to rest him.

  9. Ron

    Mar 08, 2014, 15:59 #47171

    The Cup is ours gentlemen. I keep tellin you. 'Name on it' and all that stuff lads. We can take Man C in a one off. I know i said we d beat them up there and lost, but the scorline that day flattered them. In fairness too, Everton were very good today. 4-1 looks better than the game it was. A credit to the FAC and why its sheen will never be tarnished for me.How nice to see an Arsenal player getting in and using body strength. Well done young OX and to Ozil too. a word for Sanogo too. Theres a future for that lad. Hes got a lot to his game, esp when he fills out and muscles up like the OX has done. Get in that gym lad and work on those shoulders and thighs. The techniques there.

  10. WeAreBuildingATeamTo Dominate

    Mar 08, 2014, 15:29 #47170

    Yay 4-1. Big ups to Wiggy for having the Cojones with that retaken kick. To Talksport, the BBC, Adrian Chiles and all the Totts; in the immortal words of Daphne and Celeste "ooh stick you, your mamma too. And your daddy". Now gonna get it on with the wonderful Free Story, double album I ain't heard for years. Have a nice rest of the day gentlemen.

  11. smithy

    Mar 08, 2014, 15:21 #47169

    Good result.an 8 out of ten performance.Sanogo needs someone to play closer to him as can get isolated.also the midfield was way too open- we can't play that open against Bayern.God ITV were so biased against us- they were willing Everton to win!Well done lads!

  12. BADARSE

    Mar 08, 2014, 14:46 #47168

    Afternoon gentlemen. What a wonderful performance. Thought my four players originally up for MOTM were Mesut, Santi, Kieran and Ox. The rest of the gang were only a half a step behind. Mesut drove on and gave us his best ever performance for us. Clearly the MOTM. Olly, did he do enough gentlemen? He must be a happy bunny. We're on our way to Wembley!' Can you hear me singing Green Hut? One happy Gooner here.

  13. Alsace Lorraine de Totteridge

    Mar 08, 2014, 9:44 #47167

    You are all too kind. Overall (and I have a very nice puffy one that I picked up in the market next to the pointless hugely expensive extra European Parliament in Strasbourg), it gives me....unbelievable belief.

  14. BADARSE

    Mar 08, 2014, 9:03 #47166

    Good morning gentlemen. HowardL, your remark poses a completely different possibility. Not just champions of Europe, but doing it under the most amazingly trying circumstances. That offers a variety of considerations. We forever could strut and meet headlong any winners, or conversations of or about the CL. Then that leads to the next aspect, would it have served as a springboard for ensuing events? Then had that been the case what would 'The Bash Street Boys' on this site talk about? Music? Horse racing? Betting? Musicianship? or even birthday party games?

  15. HowardL

    Mar 08, 2014, 7:21 #47165

    An excellent and entertaining article followed by an enjoyable thread, which has stayed pretty much on course. The bit about King Harold was particularly amusing! For me, the biggest what if I was, if Thierry had made it 2-0 in Paris, would we have held on with 10 men to win the champions league?

  16. BADARSE

    Mar 07, 2014, 23:07 #47164

    WENGER OUT, what did you do with the Party Poppers?

  17. The Nearly Club

    Mar 07, 2014, 21:05 #47163

    Everton have a better 1st 11. Hold onto your hats. a score draw is our best hope. Martinez is tactically much smarter than Whinger

  18. maguiresbridge gooner

    Mar 07, 2014, 20:48 #47162

    Alsace, you forgot to include the tired old buzzword that has replaced mental strength, which is sure to be used whatever the outcome whatever it means, Overall.

  19. jjetplane

    Mar 07, 2014, 19:58 #47161

    alternatively 'Well I think the players played with a great spirit in both games and I knew Sanago could do it in training, so to see him score in the two games - I am very happy for him. Did Robben deserve a red card. Well yes - you cannot headbutt a player in front of the linesman. Now we must plan for our next match in Europe and hope we get to Wembley. With the Mourinho problem at Chelsea and the loss of points, we can win the league yes. We have two games in hand and one point of the runaway leaders Liverpool. I cannot talk about any contract. Thank you'. Alan Shearer 'It has been a great turnaround and yes I got it wrong. Arsenal are one of the best teams in Europe and I think they are there for a great treble'....... Bloody alarm clock Gawdddddd....

  20. Alsace Lorraine de Totteridge

    Mar 07, 2014, 18:45 #47160

    An (imaginary) word from the Manager on Monday. "I felt that we played a little bit with the handbrake on. We lacked spirit and this may be because I decided to pick the Ladies team to play Everton. We have a must win game (at least in my head) against Bayern, the Champions of Europe soon and I am hoping that Jesus Christ will come down from on high and deliver us a miracle. It will need to be a miracle because I fully intend to make the same old mistakes in the same old way and hope for a different outcome. I will soon be in the happy position of being out of all four competitions, so that I can pretend that a spirited end to the season finishing in 4th place is a result to be proud of. Thanks for your support".

  21. Ron

    Mar 07, 2014, 18:07 #47159

    MG - Never fear my friend, the FAC is ours!!

  22. maguiresbridge gooner

    Mar 07, 2014, 17:18 #47158

    BADARSE, am game for anything when the worst for wear or so i'm told anyway, but definitely draw the line with the pins in the bum. Maybe a better use for the pins would be with the old voodoo it help us win silverware we certainly need something. Anyway happy birthday.

  23. BADARSE

    Mar 07, 2014, 16:01 #47157

    maguiresbridge goner, hi buddy. I had visions of you the worst for wear, bum in the air snoozing and the rest of the monkeys on this site delighting in sticking pins in it. If you don't want to play that it's OK, Cockney Gooner in NYC can do the job, you look after the musical statues group, but promise no 'Dad dancing', and go easy on the jelly and ice cream..

  24. jjetplane

    Mar 07, 2014, 15:45 #47156

    Hard to call but do remember Everton starting slow in last round but once they kicked in they were imperious. We used to be like that. Hopefully it will be a great game. Visions of JW standing outside A & E with fag in mouth placing bets on his mobile .... Me negative ha ha! Ron We are very positive about football. Not so with SOCCER. Enjoy your visits.

  25. maguiresbridge gooner

    Mar 07, 2014, 15:44 #47155

    BADARSE, here was me going to wish you a happy birthday I'll not bother now. Anyway there's enough donkeys with tails better known as cart horses at arsenal and they can all see and it still does them no good. Enjoy your sabbatical Westie.

  26. Ron

    Mar 07, 2014, 15:23 #47154

    JJ - i reckon we ll beat Everton on Saturday. 2-1. Be very tight though mate BUT if the attitude isnt spot on, Everton to win by the same score. Mind you mate, i predicted a win at Man City and to beat Chelsea!

  27. Bottle Case

    Mar 07, 2014, 14:45 #47153

    Got out of that easy enough!

  28. Bard

    Mar 07, 2014, 14:31 #47152

    Happy birthday Badarse, have a good one. Sorry your leaving us for a while Westie, always enjoy reading your endless positivity. You'd have made a great Capt on the Titanic.

  29. jjetplane

    Mar 07, 2014, 14:25 #47151

    Green Hut Was at that game too but all tis now a blurry lagered memory. Poor olde Wembley. Last good day I had there was the Overmars & Anelka show. Very lagered that day too. my hot dog refence alludes to days when we were proper local ragamuffins in the 60s and after the game we would get the dogs that were 'left over' or hot dog blokie was a good old boy. RON Talking of footer - while watching local team last tuesday night in an on paper difficult fixture, half hour went by and we were four up and playing football like I enjoyed in the 60s. You could hear the players then and on tuesday I was hoping half of them would shut up for a minute, which of course they did when we were 6-1 up. Here goes to saturday and a game coupla games off a wembley show for all 300 of us! Football - I f.....g love it. Will squeeze in Arsenal game between work and the big one with memories of Bouldie and Adams in the sunshine. Talking of Sir Tony. Wenger talk him zilch. He should have listened to Adams a bit more. The man has visions.

  30. Ron

    Mar 07, 2014, 13:51 #47150

    Westie - All the best matey. Its been great but hear from you soon buddy and good fortune to you. Take care. BADARSE -Greetings for the day fella.

  31. radfordkennedy

    Mar 07, 2014, 13:32 #47149

    Westlower...Good luck mate,have a great time and i hope Lady Lucky smiles upon you,although as a pro punter i know you avoid Handicaps and only play percentages but good luck anyway...Badarse Happy Birthday fella and i shall indeed raise a glass of Faustino V to you tonight,just remember to keep the volume down on ol'slowhand and that Lennon Rock n Roll album later think of the neighbours!!

  32. BADARSE

    Mar 07, 2014, 13:28 #47148

    Thanks for the greetings gentlemen. westlower despite my birthday I have no intentions of horseplay with the equine community. I also share a birthday with Flamini and I don't want to share my bed with him either. Astonishing letter chum. How prophetic. Have to revise my opinion of you, perhaps padre, you do know your football. Quite an eye-opener. When I first took my little grandson Charlie to Highbury he asked a chap nearby if he was a fan of the other team. When the bloke asked why, his mate volunteered that it was because he kept slating Bergkamp, and Charlie nodded his agreement.

  33. Westlower

    Mar 07, 2014, 12:56 #47147

    Came across a letter I sent to Tony (probably Madden) Islington Gazette 7/12/97: 'Surely the detractors of Overmars & Petit in the North Bank haven't forgotten the delights we suffered from the likes of Helder & Jensen. Yes, I concede the only form of entertainment in GG's final year was the crowd willing JJ to shoot (JJ scored one goal in his AFC career). For those who haven't made the observation yet AFC have not lost a single game when Overmars, Petit, Vieira & DB have all played. With a full season under their belts these four will set the World alight! I've been watching AFC since 1960 and have yet to see a Championship winning team formed in a few months. To the people doubting Wenger's judgement I ask the following question, who could do a better job? With the four players mentioned above + Adams, Keown, Parlour & Anelka we have the nucleus of a tremendous team. I further believe that selling Merson was the best bit of business AFC has ever conducted. How many times did we hear GG bellowing, "Merse, Merse" in a vain attempt to get the lazy bu**er involved? Ray Parlour has benefitted from Merson's departure and has been our player of the season. I fear we won't be Champions until Ian Wright has moved on. Wright's performance against Liverpool was the worst I've ever witnessed from an Arsenal centre forward. He has improved his team game since Wenger arrived but it's too little, too late.'

  34. julesd

    Mar 07, 2014, 11:31 #47146

    Badarse I also wish you a very happy birthday! Good health and come on you gunners!

  35. Westlower

    Mar 07, 2014, 11:13 #47145

    @Badarse, Shame on me, I forgot to wish you a happy birthday. You share your birthday with Forgive. She's been retired to the breeding paddocks & has a mating with leading stallion Dubawi in the spring. I hope you're as lucky! @SGRB, Enjoyed our chats, doubtless we'll resume our differences come Nov. I wonder how the world of AFC will look then?

  36. Westlower

    Mar 07, 2014, 10:53 #47144

    @Chris @ Badarse, Thanks for your best wishes. You've both had enough clashes with the 'angry brigade' to know how to handle their irrational bursts of temper. Think children! Chris, I'm a member at Newmarket racecourse, so I'll usually be there throughout the season. You were close in your Cambridge/Newmarket/Thetford axis, just substitute Ely for Thetford & I'm to be found in that triangle most days.

  37. WENGER OUT

    Mar 07, 2014, 10:51 #47143

    Happy birthday BADARSE, you're real gent! I hope it warms the heart to think of poor Finsbury Joe and his kin always looking over in envy, never to break out of the also ran mediocrity that is their lives.

  38. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Mar 07, 2014, 10:42 #47142

    Good luck in your betting endeavours, Westlower, sounds a cool way to earn a living. If most of us tried it we'd end up on the streets. A trophy or a change of manager would oblige a change of tack from all on here, though neither is likely so it may well be all the same come November.

  39. Chris

    Mar 07, 2014, 10:34 #47141

    Badarse - ha ha, nice one! I have recently wondered what might happen if we all met in the flesh - perhaps you have hit the nail on the head.... Anyway, have a good birthday! And cheerio to Westlower, whose non-stop cheeriness & positivity will be a sorely missed ingredient here. I'll probably unknowingly bump into you somewhere in the Cambridge / Newmarket / Thetford area judging from you description of your movements.

  40. Rocky RIP

    Mar 07, 2014, 9:57 #47140

    Happy Birthday Badarse!

  41. BADARSE

    Mar 07, 2014, 9:40 #47139

    Morning gentlemen. Sad news of your enforced absence westlower, I take your counsel wisely. It is my birthday today so that wasn't a nice surprise in learning of you doing a vanishing act. You be lucky chum, November beckons! One door opens and all that and we see Rocky RIP grace this site, hi Gooner. Organised party games later. 'Pass the Ron' where to Beatle music whoever is holding him as the song stops has to peel back a layer of cynicism and negativity. Pin the tail on the maguiresbridge...ouch! Chris, Amos, jeff wright and SGRB can sit in a circle posting to each other non-stop, then after one hour, to be carried kicking and screaming to a darkened room, forcibly restrained, and a cold compress laid on foreheads. radfordkennedy to run the red wine drinking contest. I warn you now, no one tell him he is the last man standing, the winner, and can top now. He will not thank you for unsporting interruptions. Green Hut to lead community singing; and shall need you all to help blow out, oh so many candles. 'Zoom! What was that? Your life mate. Do I get another? Nope That's it.' A big birthday thank you, and raspberry to you all. Adieu 24601.

  42. Dennis

    Mar 07, 2014, 9:38 #47138

    What if I'd chosen to go left with my last minute penalty in the FA Cup semi v Man U in 1999? - Another double for us, no treble for Man U. No Red Clive (Tyldesley) wetting himself. What if John Barnes had run the ball into the corner flag and played down the clock at Anfield '89? No greatest title decider ever. What if the ball hadn't bobbled off Steve Nicol in an incredibly kind way? Football is riddled with what ifs. What if the ref had spotted Henchoz stopping a goal for us with his hand on the line in 2001? A guaranteed FA Cup win. It's all about fine margins and the glorious uncertainty which makes it such an addictive, joyous and infuriating game to watch.

  43. Rocky RIP

    Mar 07, 2014, 9:14 #47137

    @ Finsbury Joe - please get your facts straight. It's always someone else's fault when Spurs fail. Blame a lasagne for 'wiping out half the squad' when the fact is that a bug was carried by a Spurs player and passed on to a few others. The lasagne was checked and found not to be contaminated. Otherwise Spurs would have sued the hotel. The hotel was absolved of any blame. Still, it always helps Spurs to re-write history with them as victims without knowing the facts. After all, it was all Henry Norris's fault.

  44. Finsbury Joe

    Mar 07, 2014, 8:44 #47136

    What if rivals were not deliberately poisoned via a well known Italian dish at the seasons end? Said rivals would have shifted the power balance, Wenger would be gone, The fear, this year could be the year they get their revenge, with wengers ineptitude and players dropping like flies due to the worst medical staff in the league

  45. Westlower

    Mar 07, 2014, 8:32 #47135

    Just to let you know I'll be absent from this site until early November. My day job takes priority from Cheltenham through to the end of the Flat race season on November 8th. Time consuming & laborious form book studying, stable visits & trips to the races from here on in (too many hours spent on the road). Football has to take a back seat & sadly no more visits to the Emirates until the end of the year. I wish you all well & hope AFC can put a smile on all Gooners faces by the season end. The regular posters are pretty much set in their thoughts so I don't expect too much will have changed by my return. @R/K, Enjoy your 2 days of freedom watching racing next Thur/Fri. Willie Mullins & Ruby Walsh will see you alright. @Ron, Enjoy your trip to Aintree. I'm sure the Ladies of Liverpool will be displaying as much bare flesh as the weather will allow. @Badarse, Count to 10 & then 10 more, before you get sucked into endless arguments with the belligerent few. My final prediction is for a draw on Saturday and we'll win the replay. AFC never do anything the easy way, it's in our DNA. Be Lucky!!

  46. Bard

    Mar 07, 2014, 7:49 #47134

    jimmygooner; its not my problem that it my comments went in first. I didn't realise that the first post had to congratulate the author on his efforts! I will look back on the other articles and check. As to your other point you obviously don't get to the site much I have written many articles and had one posted and had it criticised. I call it as I see it. My advice is don't post if you feel sensitive about getting a bit of stick. I am sure Alex can handle a bit of grief, its all banter. I suggest your comments are more appropriately directed to the site manager asking him to make sure the first post has a letter of congratulations attached.

  47. Amos

    Mar 07, 2014, 7:21 #47133

    I haven't defended ticket prices at all Patrick! Where did you read that? I'm no more happy with rising ticket prices than I am with higher travel costs or higher food prices and I'm more than willing to moan about all of them. Not everyone has a choice of whether they eat nor always whether they travel but they do have the choice of whether they go to football games as Ron as highlighted. It was Steveio who described himself as a paying customer and of course he has the choice of whether to go or not. So the best way he can express his discontent is not to go and you're clearly wrong to say he doesn't have that choice. You may be right about the future of football but broadcasting and commercial revenues will shortly outstrip matchday revenues at Arsenal as they do already at the other major clubs. I can understand those that regret being treated more as a customer than a supporter but many, like Stevio seem to have more of a customer's sense of entitlement than a supporter's sense of partnership. As I see it it is being encouraged by football itself and unwittingly or not supporters are going along with it.

  48. Patrick

    Mar 07, 2014, 6:49 #47132

    I'm not one to comment, but I can't help myself this time. Amos, How can you use the fact that Everton has sold out and that there is a high demand for season tickets as a defence for the ticket pricing? You continually spout economic statements to to give the impression of a knowledgable person but god knows it's scary for the future because by thinking the current way things are done is forward thinking is really worrying. I sure you are the same as me and the support for the club has been passed from generation to generation. It's irrational. It's not a choice about going somewhere else as a consumer. We go to football to be with friends and family. We go as it's part of our personality. This is unique. Arsenal have this at the moment which provides a large chunk of gate receipts. This will not be the case in the future. Many can't afford to bring children. Therefore the next generation will not make up with chunk of gate receipts. They will make the choice not to go. Is problem is not unique to arsenal, but do not patronise by suggesting people make a simple choice of not going. On an aside, I pesonally can afford a season ticket at the moment. Forget the economics of it, how can any person not think it morally wrong that the return is unarguably weaker than it has been recently. I take it really personally that this is the situation. I take it personally that I have to hear a suggestion luck is at hand for our success. My god, surely everything in life has this element. Some teams put themselves in the position where a little luck reaps great rewards. Others don't.

  49. Stevieo

    Mar 07, 2014, 6:49 #47131

    Ron, I think first and foremost, the club’s soundbite for its failures that we could not compete because of whatever reason for the last few years, is the starting point. Some fans spend a high proportion of their wages and holidays to follow football, and to be told that a club with our resources is only aiming for top 4 every year is a come down to start with. Then when you see what your payment has brought to the table is a kick in the teeth. A Nik Bendtner, who was more worried about the number on his shirt, so that everyone could see just how their money was being wasted. The clowns in goal we had to suffer. The young teenage kids paid such high wages that had never even put an Arsenal shirt on, and still writing off Mercedes. The arrogant types like David Bentley, being funded for his new David Beckham lifestyle. And all the while, our top players jumping off this merry go round for the farce that it was. Add on top a manager that goes years without replacing strikers unless a free out of contract one turns up, anyone paying to subsidise this circus has to start questioning their self respect. If happy to pay for it, then no problem. I see the club’s After Sales Manager has been on this message board. The ‘if you don’t like it’ attitude seems to have spread to the fans too. A full stadium equals happy fans? I remember the opening game against Villa was a sell out, I don’t recall everyone coming out of that too happy with the club’s summer transfer policy? Man Utd are still getting full houses I see. Therefore United fans must still be ecstatic with the way things are going. I wonder if the Glazers are telling themselves all is still well because they still sell out? I doubt they’re that naive.

  50. The What if nearly club

    Mar 07, 2014, 1:28 #47130

    ramsey flamini theo wilshere giroud etc robben agger injuries suspensions poor player behaviour excuses excuses last 3 away games weven been total crap 5th place and out of the cups in the next 3 days so we can all relax once again mid march onwards

  51. Th14afc

    Mar 07, 2014, 0:20 #47129

    What if....I could actually persuade my fiancée that to be an arsenal fan is the greatest thing in life and hope she understands that if they loose on a Saturday the weekend is a write off! What if....wilshere didn't get crocked by Liverpool scum...what if Charlie Adam wud hav actually been sent off during the game and the dodgy penalty wasn't given....what if mike dean refereed a match that arsenal won...what if mourinho wasn't an absolute tool

  52. Matthew Bazell

    Mar 07, 2014, 0:16 #47128

    Terry the fact that you have a history that dates back to 1970 makes your attitude all the more depressing. If you were ignorant of football roots that would be understandable. You carry on supporting Stan the Man and the board, that's your choice. But don;t be so arrogant as to refer to those of us that don;t as Arsenal knockers. Save your brainwashing, it's boring

  53. Green Hut

    Mar 07, 2014, 0:12 #47127

    jjetplane- I too remember when the hot dogs were free, first Champions League home game at Wembley, buy one get one free. Can't remember the score but I know I watched it with a full stomach, went back next game hoping for the same bargain but alas no. I'm sure Wenger put a stop to it.

  54. BADARSE

    Mar 06, 2014, 23:19 #47125

    Bard, what a revelation, now we know! What are the problems of the rest of 'les enfants terribles'? If there is a valid reason perhaps Chris can cut them all a bit of slack. Incidentally I must applaud the lad for his recent steadfast application in both fielding and batting against the odds. Just like the old Arsenal of yesteryear he wouldn't bend, so take a bow Chris. Your endeavours were duly noted.

  55. JimmyGooner

    Mar 06, 2014, 22:06 #47124

    Alex - Thanks for the well written article which gives an interesting and alternative perspective. @Bard - What a shame that your comment appears first and that you couldn't thank Alex for writing it. It hardly encourages others to follow suit does it? Disagree with it by all means, but at least acknowledge that someone has spent the time writing it for your entertainment. It's a disease of the modern world that people seem to want to find fault all the time. Perhaps you should have a go at writing an article yourself and then see how you feel when the first person to reply tells you it's drivel.

  56. Ron

    Mar 06, 2014, 21:19 #47123

    Stevio - the thing is mate, is it really the cost that gets to you? It was just partly that for me when i ended being a season ticketer 2 years plus back. There s a stadium full there who think the game's still great whereas many of us disagree. Like many things, theyre great or ordinary depending on where it sits in your life at any given time and also how old you are. Those of us who experienced it when it was an earthy game, when footballers were like gods and you could smell the grass on matchdays have in many cases decided the new sparkly, corporate sterile game isnt up to much and doesn't engender fan camaraderie as it once did and a such has lost its heart. For me, it happened a few years back , 2009 or perhaps 2010 maybe when i was at Everton watching the team, play none too great but rescue a point with a late RVP goal. Great goal by the way. It dawned on me that night that i hadnt enjoyed going and hadnt done for some time in fact. The thrill had gone. The buzz of adrenaline i used to feel when going into a ground and seeing the pitch and lights etc etc had gone a long time before. That night, getting that late equalizer didnt matter much to me. The long drive back was still a long drive and i wasnt buoyed up by it as once i would have been. Can we blame Wenger or the prima donna players for the clubs sterility, the games sterility and the rip off prices. Perhaps, but not entirely methinks. Just stop paying and go now and then. its a day out then again and not a chore. The product isn't great, but a day out with the guys is still an OK thing. Try it. It works for me. It allows you to appreciate other teams too. Each to their own though.

  57. maguiresbridge gooner

    Mar 06, 2014, 21:15 #47122

    jeff wright, certainly in the running for Quip of the day with he should have had goggles on. BADARSE imagine how sky and Jim white would have reported it. Jim white shouting loudly interupting expert studio guest Iain Dowie, news just coming in from our reporter in Sussex top top midfielder King Harold and number one Arsenal target has just been hit in the eye by an arrow although now blind in one eye Arsene Wenger has decided to sign him anyway (White now licking his lips and shouting even louder this is sensational news)as he is cheap and Duke William has promised to pay for his rehabilitation, and with luck he may have recovered in time for another battle towards the end of the season.

  58. Amos

    Mar 06, 2014, 20:38 #47121

    As a paying customer you certainly shouldn't be expected to pay exorbitant prices for a product that doesn't meet your expectations Steveio. Nor should you be expected to occupy a seat when clearly unhappy having to endure a product that affords no pleasure. The conventional response would be to not buy the product. The supplier would then have to adapt his offer to meet the demands of the customer - unless of course he doesn't have any problem in finding other customers. I notice the Everton game sold out within 2 hours of going on sale. If only the game hadn't changed as much as it has eh?

  59. jjetplane

    Mar 06, 2014, 20:25 #47120

    I well remember when hot dogs were free/But can someone tell me who is this Diaby? or There was a young man called Jack/Who always liked to attack/But smoking like a trooper/His game went to pooper/And now he's flat out on his back. Grumble Grumble ..... Yak Yak.

  60. BADARSE

    Mar 06, 2014, 20:19 #47119

    Don't we all get upset and defensive on this site? Ron an alternative view is that you met the man of your dreams, I mean woman, she towed the line until one day you were forced to go over the top. With both legs in splints she was unable to run away and you lived happily ever after. Who knows though chum, my advice is to ponder, but not ponderously. jeff I am getting dizzy! Last point it isn't about success or failure, winning or losing, just the idea that different means different, and positions or overall outlook might be different. I am now going to shut my head in the door. @Bob the article is flawed on a second count, it makes no allowance for my aunty not winning at Bingo for over six years. Sorry if that seems senseless, I've had to get used to it so I don't see why you shouldn't, and it's very difficult to think with your head shut in a door. 'Mister Postman, check it and see, one more time for me!'

  61. Stevieo

    Mar 06, 2014, 20:02 #47118

    Good to read a piece published straight from the club’s marketing officer. Totally agree with the disclaimer that the purchase of a ticket gives the bearer no rights of expectation. The paying customer should be privileged to watch and fund a bunch of multi-millionaires come well short of achieving anything worthwhile. The customer should sit there quite happily muted when the company employees under the guidance of their Team Leader annually choke when it comes to the crunch. The company policy to charge exorbitant prices for this privilege is clearly working to keep undesirables out. Marketing research shows the new breed of customer spends on average 50 minutes of the 90 watching the game. 20 minutes is spent at the bar, 10 minutes on mobile phones and the last 10 minutes leaving for home. This tells me the customers don’t really care too much for what goes on, which can only be good for trade. For those that do actually pay attention at a game, the monthly newsletter is used as a device to explain all is well, contrary to what the customers see with their own eyes. It highlights that trade is booming as the corporation continues to punch above its weight on the pitch and excels off it. Personally, I’d like to see libel action taken by the club against those that grumble on blogs. Even though well away from the reach of the club employees, grumbling on blogs is now the number one reason why Arsenal do not win anything, even surpassing bad refs and the current flavour of the month, the ‘rules’ of the game.

  62. Terry

    Mar 06, 2014, 19:55 #47117

    Matthew/I've been following Arsenal since 71 in the 80's when football wasn't so popular I didn't see you hard cores fighting to get tickets. If Arsenal made tickets £20 a game everybody would be complaining that they couldn't get hold of one because they were snapped up within hours. A lot of Arsenal fans love going round erecting straw men these days.

  63. Ron

    Mar 06, 2014, 19:42 #47116

    What if .. i hadn't turned potential dates with nice girls down as a teenager preferring to be playing football or rugger instead? hmmm .. he ponders, rubbing unshaven chin. Result - probably more than the 1 divorce would have ensued!!

  64. Matthew Bazell

    Mar 06, 2014, 18:46 #47115

    Terry I clearly stated that modern football is a rip off and yet you back at me with Tottenham's prices!!! Unbelievable! Stop justifying one rip off with another. Those of us who hate our ticketing policy also hate the way the wider game has changed. But what's your background? How long have you been following Arsenal? Do you have a sense of history to understand the side we are coming from....I pity a person who defends a ticketing policy which has priced out the core and traditional support. You are standing up and defending greed which bares you in a very poor light.

  65. Bob

    Mar 06, 2014, 18:37 #47114

    The premise of this article is fundamentally flawed. Fine margins may have accounted for some of our successes and failures in the past, but they have nothing to do with the lack of a single trophy in any of the past 8 seasons. We have rarely been close, to be honest. Even if you agree that we've been consistently unlucky, wasn't it a famous French leader who famously lamented "Bring me lucky generals"? Take your choice - either way, the case for a change of 'general' in command of our depleted army is overwhelming

  66. jeff wright

    Mar 06, 2014, 18:32 #47113

    I understand the point of would we view things differently Badarse,I t’s a piece of cake . My point though is that it is a waste of time because everyone else can claim this for their failures and then if having rewritten history to make past failings into victories then they would also of course view things differently. I don’t believe that chance did play such a large part in our past disappointments but rather it being a case of cause and effects.

  67. Westlower

    Mar 06, 2014, 18:32 #47112

    King Alfred, star of 'The Only Way Is Wessex.' Great centre half & captain (McLintock of his era), saw off the Danes in no uncertain terms. Would have walked into the current England defence, no problem! Had a bad reputation for not taking prisoners - it's rumoured that a distant relative of Peter Storey was his mentor. @Badarse, Your 70% discount voucher is in the post. Please no farting if you sit near me.

  68. BADARSE

    Mar 06, 2014, 18:30 #47111

    jeff, Harold didn't die from an arrow in the eye. That was a bit of 'Sun' reporting at the time.@ westlower, Charlie George was the hellion of his day! Love that word, you antiquated old codger, ha ha. I once saw him, in anger during a game almost physically climb on the back of an opponent as the lad tried to escape his clutches. No one admonished for that set-to, beyond a few words.

  69. jeff wright

    Mar 06, 2014, 18:21 #47110

    Good point Amos, how are you on not burning cakes? Oh...! My point remains though that we should be learning where things went wrong in the past rather than claiming that wth the same policies and a touch of luck they might have been different. Scrapping our wage structure for a more realistic and having a manager who is accountable for his results on the field of play rather than in the boardroom would also be a good place to start . It was not down to bad luck that Harold got killed by that Norman arrow striking him in a eye - he should have had a pair of goggles on!

  70. BADARSE

    Mar 06, 2014, 18:19 #47109

    jeff, as King Alfred said, ' Hastings? A piece of cake!' By the way 'what if?' and 'if only' are quite different aspects of conjecture. It was actually saying 'if it had happened differently, would our view of things been different?'

  71. maguiresbridge gooner

    Mar 06, 2014, 18:16 #47108

    Westie, fair point, and they weren't worried about looking good on TV either, all preened with nice hair cuts and gel like today, some of them were rough looking buggers, maybe the players were afraid of them.

  72. Amos

    Mar 06, 2014, 18:05 #47107

    To be fair Jeff - it would have been some achievement if King Alfred had won the Battle of Hastings. There's not much chance of learning from the past if you haven't learnt it in the first place! ;)

  73. Jones

    Mar 06, 2014, 18:01 #47106

    What if, refs weren't anti. Arsenal

  74. Colonel Chunda

    Mar 06, 2014, 17:56 #47105

    Is it beyond the realms of possibility that Wenger could walk if no silverware is won this season ? or is another contract a done deal but waiting to be signed ?

  75. jeff wright

    Mar 06, 2014, 17:54 #47104

    Badarse ,'what if' is just the same as 'if only' and all speculation on such things is no more than an exercise in futility. What if King Alfred had won the Battle of Hastings,who knows ... but the fact is he did not win it... we have to deal with what is and not what might have been . We can can do something about our future prospects our past ones are just history. As the master said to grasshopper,man who no learn from past mistakes him doomed to relive them. This looks about right regarding Arsene non?

  76. GoonerBri

    Mar 06, 2014, 17:51 #47103

    What if we don't win the FA cup this season, what if we get humiliated by Bayern in the CL, what if we finish 5th in the PL, what if OGL renews his contract? Nothing will change. Another disappointing season. 9 years without a trophy. But I'll still come back in August. Come on you Gunners!

  77. Green Hut

    Mar 06, 2014, 17:45 #47102

    Amos- 'That's more the preserve of fantasists who reckon if we'd spent £50m more we could have usurped those who have spent £1bn over the last 10 or 5 years'. I agree, it would be silly to think that we could have been the pre-eminent club in English football throughout the last petro-dollars decade. Who are these fantasists you speak of? Do any post on here? Because I don't see them.

  78. BADARSE

    Mar 06, 2014, 17:31 #47101

    jeff wright read my post to Ron. It isn't an, 'if only...' reflection, it's a 'what if?' Then, assuming 'if' had happened would we think differently? I don't think the thrust of the article is too subtle for so many to misunderstand.

  79. jeff wright

    Mar 06, 2014, 17:24 #47100

    The big problem with the 'if only' claims theory is that every other club can also play the same card regarding what they might have done if only... . 'If only' is and always has been an exercise in futility.

  80. Westlower

    Mar 06, 2014, 17:17 #47097

    @Ron, When Charlie George first started playing he was a hellion. I remember a group of lads drinking in the Clock End bar when one of their mates shouted down to them, "get up here quick, Charlie's in a fight." They weren't the slightest bit interested in the game but turned up specifically if there was a bundle to be enjoyed. Quick chorus of 'Charlie, Charlie, Born is the King of Highbury' then back to the bar. Junior Gunner section hadn't been thought of back then, it was every man, woman & child for themselves! Kids used to be manhandled over peoples heads on big match days to get them near the front. Pre-match fighting was the norm in the 30 minutes leading up to kick-off. I once got chased, along with others, around most of WHL before barriers separated the opposing factions. Good job I could run fast in my youth.

  81. BADARSE

    Mar 06, 2014, 17:01 #47096

    Hi Ron, firstly things don't even out. You can get a bad roll of the dice, and then get another bad roll, then another. Fortune is fickle, accepts no routines or considerations of equality. It is random and eccentric. Don't think the article was discussing luck as a tangible object, just that many things could have gone differently and it would have given us a different perspective. Not saying it was or wasn't deserved or earned just that it happened this way, not that-a 'Sliding Doors' scenario. With no villains or heroes. But the essence was would we think differently had it played out slightly differently. Frank! Am sure I saw him shake his head before whacking a Coventry player, as if he was just exasperated with the man. May have been Ernie Machin, Frank was in midfield then and had been kicked constantly. Saw last 30 mins of England game, my first for ages. If they have a tough group they will struggle to qualify. Bane of my life internationals, now Jack is out, wonderful!

  82. Ron

    Mar 06, 2014, 16:20 #47095

    Westie - These refs and rule makers have ruined football by removing the punch up. Time honoured tactics like provoking one were relished by crowds werent they and im sure the players loved them. The carnage that ensued as the football was forgotten and the punches flew was a sight to behold. Recall the very first one i saw as a kid was at Burnley when Frank Mac landed a lovely sweet uppercut, prompting a mass melee. He walked! We lost! Could always rely on Frank in his early days to spice up proceedings.He was a midfielder then.

  83. Bard

    Mar 06, 2014, 16:14 #47094

    Just read Jacks out for 6 weeks. Goodbye season !! No sorry forgot Kallstrom to the rescue. Not sure whether to send the boss a text saying I'm willing and able to play for nothing. I have a bad back and I'm cheap. What's not to like about that ? Imagine what a season we'd have had if Ramsey, Walcott, Ox and Jack had been fit and we'd bought Suarez, Matic and De Maria and hired someone who knew about tactics. We could have changed the course of footballing history.

  84. Ron

    Mar 06, 2014, 16:04 #47092

    Westie - Your man Kallstrom might need to be mate. Wilsheres a goner for 6 weeks.

  85. Bard

    Mar 06, 2014, 16:03 #47091

    Amos: I agree that not winning anything doesn't have a simple answer but its deserving of proper analysis. To my mind there has been none otherwise we wouldn't be doing the same things year after year. Having said that I do believe we would be better placed to win something if we'd bought a top striker, but we didn't so are where we are. And it will be the same next year if we don't radically overhaul the structure at the club including the manager.

  86. Westlower

    Mar 06, 2014, 15:58 #47090

    'What if' we hadn't signed Kim Kallstrom? With JW out for 6 weeks before he resumes training, his season is effectively over. Maybe KK will prove to be a shrewd signing after all.

  87. jeff wright

    Mar 06, 2014, 15:46 #47089

    The better the players are, and the more that a manager has of these better players in his squad , must give him a greater chance of winning a trophy or two. No one disputes this,but it's not guaranteed that City who tick-all of the boxes regarding this theory will win everything domestically or in Europe either where City have actually struggled to make a major impact . Ferguson turned Mancini over last season in the league and they also came unstuck in the domestic cups. Managerial prowess and tactics on the day also play a part especially in cup ties where the advantages of having a large squad are nurtured by only being able to field a certain number of them . The big squad that City has does help over the course of a season but the loss of Aguero impacted on City as did the dodgy form of Hart earlier in the season. Manager of other top clubs with substantial resources such as Wenger and Mourinho have to take advantage of slip-ups by City and so far, with two league wins over Pellegrini , it's Jose who has made a better fist of doing so. This despite him ,as with Wenger, not having a striker to help out. Tactics can and do play a part,it helps if you have more than just plan A to go to war with.

  88. Martyn

    Mar 06, 2014, 15:32 #47088

    What if Arsenal could keep their best players fit? Wilshere out for 6 weeks.

  89. Amos

    Mar 06, 2014, 15:04 #47087

    @bard. Well the writer did realise his article would be viewed as psychobabble by some! As I read it, it isn't really about luck or what ifs at all. The point is that the circumstances that have led us to be without silverware for the last 8 years aren't things that can necessarily be changed by changing owners, managers or players or spending more or less money - and needn't really have changed at all to have achieved some of our objectives. We could have done things exactly the same and had a different outcome. Similarly we could have done things differently and it wouldn't have changed a thing. The score doesn't always reflect the performance but it is possible to perform worse and have more 'success' - Wigan for example? Portsmouth maybe? Birmingham? Nor does all perspective take proper account of the competitive landscape of the last 10 years. Not really David Icke territory at all. That's more the preserve of fantasists who reckon if we'd spent £50m more we could have usurped those who have spent £1bn over the last 10 or 5 years.

  90. jeff wright

    Mar 06, 2014, 15:04 #47086

    The stats show that the Wenger unbeaten season was mainly down to the goals scored for ratio average 3-2 in our favour .We failed to score in only 4 games . The attacking threat of Henry and co also played a big part with opponents Terry-fied of a counter-attack launched at pace by Turbo man and co if thye committed too many players forward. This helped take the pressure off our defence proving that sometimes offense can be as good as defense. My view is that since Wenger switched from it's like watching Brazil' to watching Spain with numerous sideways passes involved in our approach play that much of our offensive threat acting as a shield for the defense has been lost ,in fact on losing possession against sides such as Liverpool ,Southampton,City , Everton, we ourselves get hit on the break with us having so many player committed to the attacking build up. The slower build ups also help teams such as Chelsea and United to cope better against us as they have better players than the Norwich, Sunderland,Palace and Hull types whom Wenger has plundered most of his points off in the Prem this term.Stoke off course are just orcs who frighten our blokes into passive submission aided by bent refs who delight in seeing old sparkies neanderthals kicking Giroud and Jack off the park.

  91. Westlower

    Mar 06, 2014, 14:49 #47085

    @Maguiresbridge, We rarely knew who the ref was in the old days. Unless the foul or penalty decision was glaringly obvious, play just used to continue. No cards, no dramas unless there was a punch up, usually involving Charlie George. Contrast that to today's prima donnas, of which Graham Poll started the trend. Referee's decide too many games these days, they were Alex Ferguson's biggest allies.

  92. Bard

    Mar 06, 2014, 14:46 #47084

    Amos: my perception is that we have won f*** all the last 8 years. Or is there another way of looking at it. Perhaps you could argue that it's been an unqualified success because we've come higher than Stoke every season for the last 8,years. Come on Amos get a grip we getting dangerously near David Icke territory.

  93. King Jeremy

    Mar 06, 2014, 14:37 #47082

    What if....Wenger had coughed up te extra £500k and signed Alonso? What if....Wenger had bought a proper striker pre season or January? What if....Wenger had played a red-hot arshavin in the semi final vs Chelsea? What if....Wenger had motivated the team for the cup final v Birmingham? These are not slender margins but gross derelictions of duty.

  94. Westlower

    Mar 06, 2014, 14:31 #47081

    @GH, I have a signed limited edition of the 'The Back Four' + a signed limited edition of the 98 Double winning team hanging proudly in my house. I saw every home game + some away games that the back four ever played. They were my hero's but even more so once AW was coaching them. To see them play sober was a delight! Added to the back four my missus owned every shirt change that her hero Martin Keown ever wore. MK was the original #14 before TH arrived. It was a disgrace THE BACK FOUR never represented England as a unit. I'm sure if they played for Liverpool or the Mancs it would have happened. As always in England the press have a great influence on team selection. My favourite back four + keeper remains Wilson, Rice, McLintock, Simpson, McNab with Storey sitting in front of them & Armstrong tracking back. What a bunch of belligerent Ba***rds to get past.

  95. frankytheswede

    Mar 06, 2014, 14:28 #47080

    Thank you BARD i mean it mate thank you, I scroll down and the first comment i see is sorry alex your post is drivel. Perfect lol, alex this article says more about you than it does about anyone else on here, youre talking about ifs thats just because you are scared of change, and as if I am foolish enough to ever believe that the board care what I think or how I feel about my club. I do not renew my season ticket so that I can have a go at the boys on the pitch or so I can expect something in return or dictate how the club is run, if you are emotionally invested in something you care about its wellbeing. and yeah I have had a dig at others on here (old farts) I hope they were smiling when they read it im sure they were lol. one clown on here the other day has his head so far up wengers french derriere that he has now resorted to blaming the fans for the teams performances on the pitch lol the lengths some will go to. but yeah alex dont worry pal i will hold youre hand ok. I cant wait to see what some guys on here will be saying in a months time. WAKE UP SLEEPY HEADS

  96. Ron

    Mar 06, 2014, 14:23 #47079

    Hi Alex - Good fortune and twists of fate do influence things, esp in the knock out tournies, but by and large across a legaue season its the coach and players making the right choices and moves that determine outcomes.There is also the small matter that for every quirk of fate for one team that does occur in any individual match, that there is usually an equivalent one for the opponent. Its a kind of counterbalancing effect. Fact is that for 8 years Arsenal as Club, its Coach and players havent made the right choices in critical matters at critical times.

  97. Unchives

    Mar 06, 2014, 14:07 #47078

    @Terry, I work in finance and look at the financing of all clubs in the Premiership & Europe. Arsenal are the most expensive club to watch in world football, further they get over 50% of their income from gate receipts, more than any other club in world football. They are also the richest club by disposable earned income not turnover. We get poor value for money and we should expect to compete and win, that is what we are there for. As Tony Adams said "I don't understand when people say in Transition, we are playing to win". 8 years is the longest any manager has kept his job, winning nothing!

  98. jjetplane

    Mar 06, 2014, 13:48 #47077

    .... or the fans and the bleedin press and those nasty spoilsports in Munich. Now even Robben is referring to our great leader as a loser. What does he know? Anyone got a clue of how Everton will set up? I'll get me coat ... Any chance of someone replacing the zip/team ....

  99. Amos

    Mar 06, 2014, 13:45 #47076

    Rioch's team may well have conceded fewer goals than Wenger did in his first season and they also conceded fewer goals than in his second season when he did the double but even GG couldn't get his back four to concede as few goals as Wenger managed out of them in his 3rd season. It took a very different back four of Wengers own construction to go a whole season unbeaten though. None of which answers any questions at al other than showing us that powers of perception are easily lost when comparing different times and failing to appreciate the changes in the competitive landscape when reaching such simple conclusions - which is a point the article seeks to make.

  100. maguiresbridge gooner

    Mar 06, 2014, 13:40 #47075

    It could have panned out differently, it's just as well those dammed referees and linesmen, weren't against us way back then as well.

  101. Born Gooner

    Mar 06, 2014, 13:31 #47073

    @Terry - "Make calls after the event"..???? Like nobody was urging Wenger to buy a striker last summer?

  102. jeff wright

    Mar 06, 2014, 13:27 #47072

    Football, as Socrates said is a simple game,but one that is obviously too difficult for you to understand Tom. So why then did Wenger try to sign Suarez,if we didn't need a world class striker ? The only thing that got in the way OF this was the usual dithering and money . Why did Wenger though say recently that he still dreamed of signing him ? You obviously know more than he does.

  103. Terry

    Mar 06, 2014, 13:09 #47069

    As if football was that simple.'Buy a world class striker' and we win everything. It's easy to make calls after the event. The wobbly wobs make statements all year on how Arsenal should be run. Then at the end of the season they complain about the two or three they think they were right about, completely forgetting the fifty or so absolute pants predictions they have made which went up the swanny. The reason these folk remain the sillier end of the spectrum is for all to see. They will pick Wenger up for a couple of points they believe he messed up on but will completely forget hundreds they got wrong and the ridiculous verbiage they have bored us with for the whole season.

  104. Green Hut

    Mar 06, 2014, 13:01 #47068

    Westlower- You forgot the 5th place in the season before Wenger arrived mate, and also the 2 European finals in the seasons you did mention. Rioch's team actually conceded less than we did in Wenger's first full season, hardly the sign of a spent force, and I'm sure you'll agree our back four more than proved their worth in the seasons prior to those mentioned, remarkable if as you say they were lacking sobriety, fitness and technique!

  105. jjetplane

    Mar 06, 2014, 12:49 #47066

    Here Teech - Can we go to our next lesson now? Paragraph five tells me you should be setting up a tent on Highbury Fields on match days.

  106. kilkenny cat

    Mar 06, 2014, 12:29 #47065

    Ive always believed in the ripple effect. What if Brady and Stapleton wern,t sold in the early 80,s. With the likes of Sansom, Anderson,Williams and Charlie added to the squad,plus the youth that came through we could have been the team of the eighties and won everything. Of course that might have meant no GG,no Anfield 89 and no Wenger. Who knows what would have happened.

  107. jeff wright

    Mar 06, 2014, 12:17 #47063

    Getting decisions right also plays a big part in football and this can involve ,or should do, more than just chance. Unfortunately Wenger has been getting the big calls wrong for years now and if Lady Luck was ever on his side then she has now deserted him. Wenger's signings, and the contracts that he has awarded to the likes of Bendtner and Diaby , Denilson and co, along with his well known inept dithering about , and at times comical antics in the transfer market , call into question his judgement in these essential areas . Is Tom Cleverly good enough to play for England some are asking in England , while in Deutschland the same question is asked regarding if Ozil is good enough to play for Germany. Ozil was clearly surplus to requirements at Real Madrid and Bayern Munich appear to be getting along without him in their mid-field. The question is did we really need him in our one? The stock reply to this query from Tom and Terry and others is , well he will come good next season you must remember Robert Pires needed time, blah, blah, blah. The problem with this is that everything now days is always jam tomorrow . Ozil was clearly not a player that we required last summer , whereas a top striker was clearly needed . However, due to Wenger's indecisive actions plus the delusional doomed to failure pursuit of Suarez, a striker was not signed and a panic buy , after a poor start to the season, in the unneeded Ozil was what resulted instead. This was not down to bad luck but a result of bad management. On another note regarding the chief of AKB’s , we too many orcs despite having the cheapest tickets in the game Tom and Terry , well he is obviously very deluded and keeps changing his name from post to post with all the metronomic regularity of a cuckoo popping out of a clock every hour , as though this name changing will in someway make the nonsense he posts appear intelligent instead of obviously being completely cuckoo land gobbledegook.

  108. UTU

    Mar 06, 2014, 12:10 #47062

    What Ifs a'int gonna cut it. Winners do not depend on luck alone. Our rivals win silverware on a regular basis while we a'int won nothing since 2005. The Arsenal are run enrich Billionaires and Millionaires, Fact!

  109. Terry

    Mar 06, 2014, 11:55 #47061

    London's an expensive City to live in, so you can't expect the biggest club in London to charge Wigan Prices,If you like you could pay £1800 for 19 games at Tottenham rather than £900 for 26 games at Arsenal. The trouble with a lot of Arsenal fans is they love playing the victims and want everything for nothing, the richer Arsenal fans buy the dearer tickets which they can afford to keep other games cheaper for poorer fans so they can watch games too. Any other Premiership team who had 45,000 on the waiting list would be ripping their fans off far more than Arsenal do. If Arsenal were an American team with the same following they would set the admission fee so high there would be nobody on the waiting list Arsenal could easily make 50% extra on their gates if they so wanted to. It's just the media and the AAA focus on the Cat A games to get there agenda's across.

  110. WENGER OUT

    Mar 06, 2014, 11:46 #47059

    What if my aunt had b****cks? Would she be my uncle? If you believe in parallel universes, then somewhere Arsenal have won every cup ever and Arsene Wenger is overlord of the universe - Certainly a cause for celebration!! Unfortunately we live in this universe - although perhaps you don't Alex - and in this universe we have a concept called accountability. Even in the quantum world 9 years is too long to blame failure on happenstance. Maybe I'm just one of those unfortunate few who just don't get it.

  111. Matthew Bazell

    Mar 06, 2014, 11:27 #47057

    Terry you're the one who is quite clearly brainwashed. 7 games this season have carried minimum pricing of £62 for the cheapest ticket. So save your barking and brainwashing because with me your preaching won;t get anywhere. The club is not yours to call me an Arsenal knocker or to follow someone which I'm sure you will demand at some point. Arsenal charge the highest season ticket prices anywhere- deny that please....and for the record modern football is a rip off and which is why I don;t go to away games anymore either.

  112. Terry

    Mar 06, 2014, 11:15 #47056

    Matthew Bazell, You like the majority of Arsenal knockers have been brainwashed that it is expensive to watch Arsenal when in fact Arsenal fans are given the best value for money in the Premiership. It is also the cheapest venue bar the grade A games to watch football in London and provides the greatest comfort. Green Hut has shown what a clueless individual he is by being shot down yet again by westie, and Bard even though some of your hot wind is amusing you're very predictable. What comes out of all this is the so called AKB's seem to have their fingers on the pulse of what's happening while the AMG's would be better off in a cage.

  113. Westlower

    Mar 06, 2014, 11:01 #47055

    @Bard, Tribal tradition dictates that the elders of the tribe pass down their wisdom & knowledge to the next generation, however unwilling they may be to listen. Kids hey, what would you do with 'em? @Matthew, To go out of last seasons CL against the future winners with a 3-3 aggregate scoreline was arguably a credible challenge. @GH, GG's back four finished 12th, 4th & 10th in the previous seasons before AW arrived and improved them. First, he got them of the booze; second, he improved their fitness & technical ability. Who can ever forget Bouldy playing in TA for the final goal v Everton?

  114. chris dee

    Mar 06, 2014, 10:55 #47054

    The reality of course is the more successful a club is the less 'what ifs ' there are. I'm hoping we're not heading for yet another frigging 'what if ' season.

  115. WeAreBuildingATeamToDominate

    Mar 06, 2014, 10:54 #47053

    it is easy to say "what if". But everything that happens is a direct result of following something that happened before. What if my mum hadn't met my dad? (Duurrr simples). So if the league cup is ours in 2007, it doesn't follow that the title is ours in 2008 just by default. Kind of like lazy pundits who say about "well if LFC should have had a penalty then Gerrard should have had a red too". If the penalty was awarded, it does not follow that Gerrard gets a red, because the whole dynamic of the game alters. The only reason AFC have had so many "what if" moments under Wenger is because since 2004 the side has simply not been good enough. But I will concede that Denis penalty at Villa Park in April 1999 shaped the next four seasons for sure.

  116. Matthew Bazell

    Mar 06, 2014, 10:47 #47052

    The biggest what if is what if Adam's had not made that last ditch tackle against John Barnes in 1989 at Anfield and then passed the ball to Lukic. Or a minute earlier what if Kevin Richardson had not gone down with cramp. History would have been different. It's a fair article on that level but Alex, if I paid our club's prices for season tickets (I don;t out of protest) then I would be very very demanding. Arsenal fans are treated like garbage from the board. I think the highest charged fans in the world have every right to grumble. CL means nothing if you can;t put up a credible challenge.

  117. DJ

    Mar 06, 2014, 10:46 #47051

    Terry: Football is the most popular game in the world so you too could be accused of going along with the popular masses. It was why elections are decided by who gets the most votes. So as the majority want some change at Arsenal it doesn't mean they are burying their heads in the sand, it means they are probably right!

  118. buggleskelly

    Mar 06, 2014, 10:30 #47050

    ...............and as Nick Hornby writes in FEVER PITCH, "the natural state of the football fan is bitter disappointment no matter what the score".

  119. Big Andy

    Mar 06, 2014, 10:26 #47049

    This is without doubt the most stupid article that I've ever read on this website. Yes, luck does play a part in football, but so does skill, planning and ability. And in the long run the latter will make all the difference. The successes at Liverpool in the 70s and 80s was not by luck. and the United's titles in the 90s and 00s were not fortunate either. We have failed to win anything for nine years not because of bad luck, but because the club has been badly managed - not just by Wenger but by everybody at Arsenal. And fans have always 'vented their spleens': in the old days it was by chanting from the terraces. Are you Arsene Wenger's agent?

  120. Green Hut

    Mar 06, 2014, 10:22 #47048

    What if Wenger hadn't inherited George Graham's back four? What if French football hadn't been the best in the world when he took over? Your right Alex, life is full of what ifs.

  121. Bard

    Mar 06, 2014, 9:45 #47047

    Terry: What is the bigger picture? Enlighten me. I would have thought its the Wenger disciples who have their head in the sand. I look forward to enlightenment

  122. Terry

    Mar 06, 2014, 9:38 #47045

    Excellent, agree 100% with everything said on the football side. Some people have the ability to look at the bigger picture while others bury their heads and go along with the popular masses.

  123. Amos

    Mar 06, 2014, 9:29 #47044

    'What if' isn't solely about luck it's about perception. Small things such as the bounce of the ball have a significant impact on perception. Hence if you read the average media ratings numbers attributed to individual players in a game they have lost then they'll invariably be much lower than those of the team that won. Yet the losing team can have dominated the game, hit the woodwork been denied nail on penalties or had one scratched off when clearly onside and the other side has had all the fortune and been given a soft penalty to win the game. Nonetheless the winning sides players will invariably be given higher ratings than the losing side despite the reality of the performance. So often we see only results but not always what has really taken place. Conclusions are often reached without knowledge and it's always much easier to reach definite conclusions with the least knowledge.

  124. Westlower

    Mar 06, 2014, 9:13 #47042

    We sing from the same song sheet Alex. The other 'what if' is the great victory at Anfield in 89. What if Liverpool hadn't played so conservatively trying not to lose by 2 clear goals? What's different between the Liverpool mentality that night and Bayern Munich last year when they tried to defend a 2 goal lead from the first leg? The pundits eagerly tell us AFC only won because BM didn't have to try to hard. Great sides get greater when the story is passed on to future generations and every story teller adds his memories to the original script. For me WHL 71 was the greatest achievement because the opposition were busting a gut to beat us unlike Liverpool & BM. The Lilywhites have never fully recovered from that glorious night.

  125. Bard

    Mar 06, 2014, 8:53 #47041

    Sorry Alex your post is drivel. 'What if' is the cry of the man who can't face reality. What if I was the Sultan of Brunei I would have enough money to buy Arsenal but I'm not. Luck does play a part in individual results but over the course of a season the best team wins. Second point football is tribal, a welcome distraction from the travails off life. As such it's passionate and sometimes unreasonable. Long may it be that way. There are enough stroppy b******s on this site to pick up anyone who's fascist, sexist or whatever so I wouldn't worry about it. You seem too sensitive a soul to support a football club Alex,you need to find a gentler pastime.