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1. Ozzie

   Jun 01, 2014, 11:04 #52258

   G'day Badarse! It is 8 pm here so I guess you'll just be getting out of church over there? I do hope you prayed for that beast. There's a fine line between the civilised man and the beast is there not? Prefer the beast myself, at least you know where you are with him - not sophisticated enough to practice hypocrisy like your 'big brother' who controls robots. Ah well, Shakespeare would probably bid you leave them to their vices. Do I know what? the parkrun or your damaged knee - Did you play for Bolton? Anyways, it's meditation time - I have a pot to stir. Cheer for now.

2. Test driver

   May 31, 2014, 10:14 #52245

   The fortress mentality has to include the fans. Too many are willing to boo the team, being a fortress means cheering them on no matter what. Until we can co that , the Emirates being a fortress is out of the question

3. BADARSE

   May 31, 2014, 6:49 #52242

   Evening Ozzie, nice response. Beautiful still morning here. We are busy at the moment, juggling hours and minutes, occasionally dropping a few and realising we've grown a little older. At 9am my wife will be running Parkrun, I will marshall(my damaged knee won't let me run)-do you know of this? Personas are part real part imagined. In general I have a reputation of being a calm patient man, and I am. However much of this is a desperate attempt to control the beast within. Those who are close know me differently. With me I guess it's a case of balancing a raging and sageing, and all I get is ageing! I have had to temper my reactions over the years because that way lies madness. Arsenal's result affected me so much in an automatic sense, it still does but to a lesser degree because the medication works, ha ha. I was aware an outside influence was dictating and I resist all controls wherever, whenever. I have stopped doing the opposite of what's expected or demanded, but sometimes I slip into my former way. My wife will say, 'I did notice you walking in through the 'out' door you know?' She may be talking of an action which happened half an hour before. I am still a children you see, ha ha. I detest the concept of Big Brother, and brother is it now big? It's all this flag-waving and easy shepherding of the masses which irritates me, because this may lead to a narrow perspective of the world. Right now we have the grannies driving around with 'freebie' England flags on their jam jars as a sign of England's support. Most couldn't even tell you four England player's names. It isn't such a bad thing, whatever gets people through the night, as the master JL said, just the control of them that troubles me, so I can't join them. With every separation there is a personal tear in the fabric. Wow, now for my second cup of Rosie-and perhaps your tenth 'tinny'?

4. Ozzie

   May 31, 2014, 6:27 #52241

   Thanks for the insightful read, Ron. Nothing to add except the reason I want AW out (stale) is because I believe Arsenal is lacking dynamism. A new manager who can galvanise the supporters and create a new direction on and off the pitch - a manager who is ruthless and willing to take risks would lift the spirits of we who are weary of the same old. But we little folk....the voices in the wilderness - ah, the heady days of revolution! RIP John.

5. Ozzie

   May 31, 2014, 5:58 #52240

   G'day all! Badarse, you like the Guy Fawkes crack? Hmmm..! Say, wasn't it a cracker or was it a firework or was it a pyrotechnic? Geez, life gets simpler dunnit? I prefer Catherine's wheel myself - she still puts me in a spin, though rockets aren't bad - just what AW needs up his you know what! Ah, Zen - what we need is a great big melting pot, big enough to take the world & all it's got, add a bit of zen, stir in a bit of Tao & what have we got..Enlightened Homoerectum! Rather Satorial, what? You are a fisherman Badarse but as for my story I will leave you guessing for awhile as I know you enjoy a challenge my friend. keep an eye in the sky - you never can tell how high he will fly nor how low he will swoop beyond the Cosmic soup. Also keep an eye under the bed - he may be red - certainly aint black n' white! Was about to use the word equanimity but I see I have been beaten to the punch. Has a nice ring about it but if you saw me in a rage after The Arsenal's beltings this year you'de wonder what all the fuss was about - I'm human after all. Phew!

6. Amos

   May 31, 2014, 0:16 #52235

   It is an interesting topic Ron and I dare say there've been plenty of lofty academic examinations in different forms over the years - and a good many more of us simple folk trying to make sense of it all too. In the end though we're each responsible for our own contentment. Good weekend to you to mate.

7. Ron

   May 30, 2014, 23:24 #52234

   Amos - great stuff and reply. Nice clarity of perspective as ever. Its a really stimulating topic isn't it. Football in modern society or more specifically, Arsenal in modern society. Im sure some clever cookie with a lot of time to think and write in a Uni sociology dept somewhere has already written a piece or a pamphlet, if not a book on it somewhere, do you reckon? Hope the week end's good to you Amos.

8. Amos

   May 30, 2014, 22:27 #52232

   Ron - I don't disagree with much of that except the idea that Arsenal is responsible for creating this 'dream' and selling it to the masses. That's an accusation you could fairly level at media moguls and football authorities. I feel that Arsenal have stood firmly for self sustainability and argued against the distortion of the competition that we've seen over the last decade or so particularly. That some supporters have bought into all of this, considering trophies entitlements more than aspirations, and demanding that we compete by spending every pound we have as soon as we get it in order to keep up is something that the club has tried to discourage. The very act of trying to do so and to introduce some rational analysis drives some of those with perhaps an inflated sense of entitlement to ever more anger and frustration. As I see it one of the biggest problems with the modern world is not what is presented to us but the willingness to play the victim card and blame our own inability to make sense of it all on others by abdicating our responsibility to do so. Yes - Arsenals ability to compete and to be almost continuously tantalisingly close to trophies raises expectations and causes frustrations but as individuals it's for us to rationalise those expectations with what is going on in the wider world - not anyone else's. Blaming the modern world is a bit of a cop out.

9. Ron

   May 30, 2014, 21:10 #52230

   Amos - Modern PL football ie since it became the preserve of the so called top 4 or 5 to play with, has placed those teams who cant even dream of cups and titles has created 3 types of supporter. those who follow the top teams and those the middle and those at the bottom. 5th is the new 'relegation' and 17th, the new promised land. 5th to about 13th is a sort of desert where clubs exist amongst the tumbleweed and the fans are pretty phlegmatic and droll. Experience has taught me that the fans of those from 5th down actually enjoy football more than those at the top and especially for those from 12th down to 20th, the drama of the fight to stay up, the high of beating a top team once every 3 years takes their breath away. They moan a bit like all fans but smile benignly and lovingly at their Clubs. They do this because their Clubs know what they are, what they can and cant do and work with what they have. They don't play kidology with their fans. They dont lie to them.They even treat them to away day travel and give tickets away etc etc from time to time as they sell fans very little else. Arsenal on the other hand have sold a dream. They speak of the dream being attainable and even probable and each season, they spin and drive the message home again and again. The new type of fan ie those who entered footie in the last 20 years (and Arsenal have tens of thousands of them) have bought the dream and want trophies. For us older fans, we never did, we just went to see a hard and committed Arsenal 'compete', i mean genuinely compete and by that i mean seek the top prizes however elusive they might be and however poor our team and to fight for any Cup and go down fighting if we didnt reach the pinnacle.I dont mean compete in the present days meaning of the word ie bringing up the rear behind better, more driven teams and be glad of the scraps they leave behind. We expected Arsenal to be no teams rabbit. We expected other teams to know they might beat us, but there would be blood spilt doing it. Its no good asking those fans to see it as you do and its no good condemning the 'trophy hunter' Arse fan either. Arsenal created them and they cant be told to think how you do. Arsenal created their diet and set their expectations. Theyre 'customers'you see, not like you and i. Its not too late for Arsenal to fess up and admit theyre not for grappling seriously with the top teams but they ll lose 1000s of 'fans' if they did.They wont do that as right now theyre still buying in, theyve still got hope. While you give them hope, the edifice wont collapse and the Club will make money. Arsenal cant tame that beast as they created it. They can regulate its behavior and the spin team do that marvelously. We live in a world of spin and lies and Arsenal have learned it good. American owners are the masters of business spin and consumer control and we ve got a hell of a team in that dept. I respect your take of football. Its honourable but to suggest that those millions you speak of have the same choices as the likes of Arsenal fans is unrealistic in the extreme, they have no choices at all other than to enjoy footie for the sake of the simple game that is and hope for a bit of elation along the way.They've never been encouraged to think differently hence the clarity and fresh naivety of their enjoyment. For Arsenal see M and S. They talk a good game but know that every time they take on 'Next' theyre in for a trouncing, yet they spin a story that theyre still in the game, still 'players' and they wished that they could really believe it. M and S wont disappear. Many stil like their message, their ethic, their ethos, but know that if they want a taste of the top, a feel of the style, they wont find it there. Arsenal in many ways are quite a sad Club now in an environment that in truth im not sure they even like very much themselves any more. They live on those bygone values and codes of class that you speak of, like old generals and captains reminiscing about old victories and manoeuvres over brandys in some age old war or conflict do when at their 'clubs'. You cant expect many today who go to Arsenal to happy with what theyve got, not in the modern footballing World. Its the Clubs lies and yarns that have got them into this predicament. Id have more respect for them if they simply said, 'look we re not at the races, dont expect to'be, we re selling every decent player we create as soon as the price is right and if we win a Cup every 7 or 8 years its as good as we want plus our brief sojourns into Europe each season do us'. They ll never say it though, as it ll extinguish that false hope.

10. Amos

    May 30, 2014, 20:18 #52229

    @Bard. Not a slippery reply from me but perhaps a failure on your part to grasp the point. Nothing in my post claims that we are not judged by trophy criteria. We most certainly are and in the history of football our trophy haul is pretty impressive. I'm perfectly happy for Arsenal to be judged by trophy criteria if that's what's important to you. How about the only club to have won a trophy in each of 10 successive historical decades! That's some criteria. How about the only top flight club in the modern game in England to win a league trophy having gone the season unbeaten. That's some criteria for you there too. I didn't actually put us above any others either though it's clear to me at least that we are a superior club to many. It was your article that envisaged seeing as not as the club we are, unique in many ways but certainly with it's own identity and history, but rather as a 'type' of club. I think we have a class and style we have displayed over many different eras and continue to display. Not only in my view but one that many past players and those associated with the club also acknowledge. Neither does the Wenger way supersede the main objective of winning matches at all - his win percentage is actually pretty good. However I don't agree that Arsenal are no better or worse than any other club. There're more successful clubs, some playing in easier competitive leagues though not so many with as enduring a record of success perhaps, but whether that's enough to make them better depends rather on what your attachment to the club is. As to whether there're worse clubs I'm pretty sure there're many more who would swap places with us then there are that wouldn't.

11. Bard

    May 30, 2014, 19:20 #52225

    Amos; that was a slippery reply. you didn't address the the real question. What is it about Arsenal that means we are not judged by the trophy criteria. Do you really think that football fans of RM get stressed about the fact that they pay enormous transfer fees. I would love Arsenal to fork out £86m for Bale. Your views maybe unintentionally represent whats wrong with the club. Its a kind of arrogance that we are somehow above the "others". We operate in a parallel universe where the Wenger way , principles, vision bla bla supersedes the main objective which is to win football matches. Arsenal are no better or worse than any other club. The Arsenal way is a myth. As I see it, and I have supported them for a very long time, is to make money and maybe win a trophy along the way. The idea that we as a club have some higher moral code is absolute b******s. Football is a dog eat dog world and always has been. The notion that we don't win trophies but we do things the right way is rubbish.

12. BADARSE

    May 30, 2014, 17:43 #52218

    Hi Bard, and a belated thank you for the article. Yes it is much better when we win, and better to just lose than get hammered, yes football is escapism as in a passionate distraction, succinctly put or otherwise. I am not being rude if I say it's a pity evenhandedness or equanimity doesn't echo within you. Am not sure if evenhandedness is relevant, or really equanimity, except in very rare circumstances. If railing at the situation and getting angry over something beyond your control is the norm then I think that is where your personal problem may be. I am not saying it is, it is for you to decide the way you follow, and the manner you travel it. If I pay you a compliment and say you feel in the same way as me, why do we part company when it comes to understanding when and what to accept? It must just be a slightly different way of viewing things. Neither correct nor incorrect. I am not alone in my views and your views are also shared, so just different. I made an expansive statement of getting on my knees to Arsene. It was just a figure of speech, I would never bend a knee to any man, but it kind of expressed my support. Ron wanted to kick him. Perhaps that expresses the difference more aptly than anything else I could add.

13. Bard

    May 30, 2014, 17:02 #52215

    Ozzie/Badarse of course we enjoy the journey although I do feel a tad upset when we get hammered inside the first 15 mins because we are tactically inept and have no stomach for the fight. These posts are by way of post journey reflections ! Curiously I feel a lot happier when we win than when we lose. As Ron has succinctly pointed out in another post. Football is an escape from life, a passionate distraction. All this equanimity and evenhandedness doesn't resonate with me.

14. BADARSE

    May 30, 2014, 13:06 #52191

    This is a little zen perhaps Ozzie, especially if you have a hangover when you read this. I shall try to go easy on you pal. It is the journey, not the arriving. It is debatable whether there is actually any such thing as happiness. Sure you can become elated and emotionally super-charged if you score a potentially winning goal in the 89th minute, but hopes dashed, (unhappiness?), follows a minute later with an equaliser. Similar game and the opponents score first, (unhappiness?), you equalise in the dying seconds overjoyed and relieved perhaps? But happy? If happiness exists, and can do so as a general label for a combination of excited emotions, is all happiness the same? As long lasting? The cup win was fantastic, and I was dancing with joy and that relief I mentioned. I am still, 'happy' as a cup winner, but have a calm reasoned state about me so it isn't truly the same type of feeling, therefore I am experiencing a different kind of happiness altogether. Then again not happiness at all, just a combination of feelings and emotions all jumbled up to lend a euphoric air to one's outlook. Hope that wasn't too painful chum, back in the real world as stated before my favourite Maharishi was Yogi Bear. What is your story Ozzie, I am curious, not a stalker, ha ha. Hope you had a few red and white dreams.

15. Ozzie

    May 30, 2014, 11:32 #52184

    The whole pint of football is to win trophies but I prefer a 7oz glass to a silver cup - my viewing generally begins at 2am so I need to retain my sensibilities for 2 hrs. Actually we get the same monotonous dribble here: "win trophies, win trophies" and the whole season is spent dwelling on where we will finish on the table...ooops! Does anyone simply just enjoy the journey...the hour, the game, the day and leave next week to next week? Burp! Goodnight.

16. Amos

    May 30, 2014, 11:14 #52180

    You're right of course Badarse. Many of us got, and are still able to take a great deal of joy out of the win but those for whom trophies were needed to validate their support seem pretty joyless at times. Maybe it isn't all about trophies for them? Apparently 14m supporters attended PL games last season but only some 2m supported teams that won anything. Does that mean it was a pointless season for the other 12m? I'd guess some 10m or so go without any realistic expectation of being rewarded with a trophy. If that supposition is true then for far and away the majority of football fans there must be more to it than trophies.

17. BADARSE

    May 30, 2014, 9:04 #52175

    Amos, I return the compliment my friend. My words and thoughts echoed. It bemuses me that the pursuit of a trophy dominates all sentiments in attitudes of some. On a personal note I am very competitive but donkey's years ago I played a game of pool with my daughter in a pub with a small gathering-so spectators no less! Both she and her brother are quite good, I am very average. I beat her, but so wanted her to win. A conflict certainly, but an example of winning not crushing every other aspect to do so. We all want an attractive wife, even the uglier amongst us, but a health scare makes you love the person at your side even if she resembles Quasimodo. I so want Arsenal to win-and do you know what? We just did! Though it seems many don't milk the joy from this single act that I do. How paradoxical that many who bleat about winning above all else, treating a trophy as a raison d'etre, cannot celebrate the winning of one as much as me.

18. Amos

    May 30, 2014, 8:19 #52174

    @Bard. I didn't say that we couldn't be compared to Bayern or Real or any other club for that matter simply that we don't have to be compared to them or any other club. We don't have to be more like Real. I can't imagine that we would feel the need to frequently set a new record for transfer fees paid as a marketing strategy for example. And, this year apart, as they run in a 2 horse race we couldn't be more like them any more than we could be more like Celtic . But we do have our own history and identity and ethos which others would do well to stand comparison with. It's a pretty good one and appeals to lots of people. The whole point of football is to compete to win trophies and hopefully succeed at times but, by the same token, football doesn't become pointless if you don't win a trophy. There are a lot of supporters who follow clubs that have little real prospect of ever winning a trophy.

19. BADARSE

    May 30, 2014, 7:46 #52173

    Good evening Ozzie old bean. Saying evening, when to me it's morning, is odd but not too much for me. I remember the doorman at the Dakota Buildings where John Lennon lived-who happened to be a German émigré-saying that JL was a very nice man but always bade him a 'Good morning!', no matter what time of day it was. He didn't get it! I thought it a buzz and still greet people on occasions with an incorrect greeting, (oh what a rebel I am), ha ha. Sheila? Not sure of the ladies name but no it wasn't warm beer, motion sickness from a whirligig digger ride. In England we don't drink alcohol at 10am as a rule...yet! I know you have your Uncle Toby's oats, when he isn't looking, and probably cook it in a Fosters. Am abstemious so no alcohol for me. Though when I did drink I wouldn't have touched a cold lager for love, nor money. Beer isn't meant to be drunk that way! ha ha. I was a bitter man, and coming from Chiswick in west London I always searched for 'London Pride' which was brewed in Chiswick and had the word London on the label. See what I mean about roots and identity? I also liked a vera and philharmonic. Vera Lynn-gin, and tonic. Wine had to be red, not too interested in white, but it had it's place. Loved Rioja. Of course I also liked Guinness, but in my rebellious way I hold a unique distinction-I never finished my first pint in Dublin! I wasn't a happy bunny this evening, wasn't pleased with the way the evening was heading and lost interest in my beer and all around me. What a miserable old sod. Everyone said it tasted different in Eire, I thought it tasted exactly the same-but am just oppositional. Loved the Guy Fawkes crack. He had the right idea, pity it was a religion-based plot.

20. Ozzie

    May 30, 2014, 6:05 #52171

    Hi Badarse, fancy you coming all the way down under just to meet a Douger! That sheila you mentioned who was vomiting - had she been drinking warm pommy beer?

21. Pete

    May 29, 2014, 22:48 #52169

    I am an Arsenal fan and I already have a close bond with my club. Things are looking very positive.

22. Bard

    May 29, 2014, 22:35 #52168

    Amos: how and what does it mean that Arsenal are special in ways that mean we cannot be compared with Bayern or RM or Athletico, explain yourself. .? Does it mean we are above such comparisons. I misguidedly thought the whole point of football was to win trophies but maybe I have been wrong

23. maguiresbridge gooner

    May 29, 2014, 21:41 #52165

    Yes guys i do hope Wilshire goes on to fulfill his potential and becomes an arsenal great and i think this coming season is going to be a big one for him where he has to get himself sorted and finally start delivering on a regular basis especially if he has a decent world cup (and i know we've said this about others before) he's had long enough now, but then as has been mentioned the big guns might come calling and someone might decide to cash in when the goings good and another one will be lost, and if it were to happen it wouldn't come as much of a surprise.

24. KC

    May 29, 2014, 19:56 #52161

    @MB Gooner Jack has not arrived yet and there are question marks especially over attitude, injuries and a willingness to get involved in petty issues but he is young and will learn. We must not put in the same bracket as pennant who was sadly a player who wasted his talent and Bendtner who like Denilson, Senderos, and others have been prime examples of Wenger at his worse -players not good enough that we're put on stupid money and kept at the club far to long while Wenger decided two years after the fans to agree they would not cut it. Jack has an awful lot of talent and hopefully he will fufill it.

25. BADARSE

    May 29, 2014, 19:31 #52160

    Evening maguiresbridge. Yes the JW thing is just that, a 'thing'. It doesn't yet have substance and may never accumulate any. I think developing as a professional footballer is amongst the most testing of all areas scrutinised, perhaps in life! To be a test pilot you need to pass countless examinations and display an aptitude for decision-making, a level of fitness, reflexes, judgement and so on. It is a passive assessment one step at a time until the young chap opens the door or is turned away as unsuitable. Footballing is done in front of an audience with sometimes 60k people hollering their displeasure. If a lad sets foot upon the second rung the questioning and scrutiny becomes more extreme. Another rung and the lad's private life is microscopically examined, and fans can be relentless. They believe they have invested trust, time and acceptance into this young fellow and want a return on that commitment. Jack is still on that shaky old ladder and is yet a child. Give the lad time and support. I still anticipate a remarkable career will be delivered, but remember as with Nicklas Bendtner, he let himself down much more than he ever let us fans down, by not fulfilling the talent he had available.

26. maguiresbridge gooner

    May 29, 2014, 18:19 #52155

    BADARSE, KC, hear what your saying ref Wilshire i don't want to seem to be to hard on him but i think he has a lot to do and prove yet before it can be deemed he has made it especially from himself some might say he has had ample time to do it injuries might not have helped maybe it's the coaching, but the best thing he can do is knuckle down and fill this potential we've been and keep hearing about especially where Arsenal's concerned because it would be a shame if he ended up like Bentley and Pennant.

27. KC

    May 29, 2014, 16:06 #52148

    The vast majority of views here are very extreme in support of the club, board and manager or against it. Its not a crime to go to games because you support the club you may not agree with the business model they have created but it still gets the juices flowing at certain times. I am flabbergasted at unquestionable support as there are so many areas to question, but then I am equally flabbergasted at some of the criticism especially aimed against Jack (young man will make mistakes but had awful injuries but has a lot of ability). I am guessing the truth is in the middle of these extreme views but I do lean to the Wenger has had his time brigade based on the horrific away performances which still wind me up and proving that our Managers transfer dealings over the last 4 transfer windows are pathetic at best. He is staying so I just hope that he strengthens the obvious areas as I still want us to be the best with or without him.

28. johnnyhawleylovinggooner

    May 29, 2014, 14:13 #52145

    Right,so we are a selling club that buys £40 mill players.I can live with that.

29. BADARSE

    May 29, 2014, 13:07 #52139

    Hi Ozzie. Well we went to Diggerland and I never saw one antipodean. If there were any they kept it under wraps. I thought I had discovered one when I saw a young woman vomiting, it transpired it was motion sickness from one of the rides, so was a bit disappointed. On the upside, I did meet a man named Doug! Keep smiling Gooner.

30. jjetplane

    May 29, 2014, 12:17 #52135

    Great post as ever RON and you are so right on football. Fans want fun, a giggle, a tear, not some win against the ordinary at home in soccer events while brushing over the divine comedy of being slapped senseless away by clubs who will not stand for the nonsense that is current Arsenal. The game is set up at Emiratz for the fans and the players to wear their big earphones while listening to fake hip hop and being down with my Arsenal. Know what - have it! Just before I 'go down the road' and support teams who will be kicking on next season - beware the ides of ManU, Spudland, Toffeeworld and Mr Rodgers and the Bunnymen! Anyway - we are in Sussex 1 next season and the chips are like Tupper lies 'em. Remember BADARSE remember Milan is talking of the Unbearable me little grain of sand.

31. jeff wright

    May 29, 2014, 12:17 #52134

    English Premier League Stats: Assists Leaders - 2013-14 Top Assists Player Team Assists 1 Steven Gerrard Liverpool 13 2 Luis Suárez Liverpool 12 3 Wayne Rooney Manchester United 10 Rickie Lambert Southampton 10 5 David Silva Manchester City 9 Yaya Touré Manchester City 9 Mesut Özil Arsenal 9 8 Santi Cazorla Arsenal 8 Olivier Giroud Arsenal 8 Aaron Ramsey Arsenal 8 Christian Eriksen Tottenham Hotspur 8 Kevin Mirallas Everton 8 13 Jesús Navas Manchester City 7 Samir Nasri Manchester City 7 Does this mean that Gerrard is going to 'tear up' the world cup?

32. Amos

    May 29, 2014, 12:15 #52133

    Certainly there's much to be said for the time when you could decide on the day whether you wanted to see the game then turn up and pay at the turnstile. I guess it's true that season tickets and memberships create a greater sense of entitlement. But the choice is still ours to take. There's no obligation to buy a season ticket. Membership isn't mandatory. Our attitudes to football needn't be led by Sky or some expert pundit who has to say something, even if he doesn't have something to say, because he's paid to. Maybe the nature of support is changing and with broadcasting and sponsorships now increasingly more important than matchday revenues the support that matters can be measured more importantly for sponsors by the extent of membership lists and social media followers. For the time being though I'll stick with lads having a good time, happy to enjoy a game and the craic that goes with it.

33. Ron

    May 29, 2014, 11:56 #52132

    Amos - good stuff too. To be honest, i reckon holding a Season ticket makes it an 'incarceration'for some. Those with them seem hidebound to go, to justify the cost etc. I've long been of the view that as Clubs have all gone down the 'Membership' route as opposed to 'first come first served', the Clubs themselves wanted an incarceration mentality to be imbued in punters who buy them. In turn football has taken on far to much of an unhealthy hold in peoples lives, ingrained in even further by mass media coverage and sadly, creating the strife we see and hear between different Clubs fans many, of whom cant, wont, or are just too blinkered and pig headed to recognise the merits of other Clubs and players.

34. jeff wright

    May 29, 2014, 11:51 #52131

    Ozil, or are you a well known thick oaf in disguise, Ozil was forced out of Madrid by Perez,he did not ask to leave ,so unless you have something intelligent to say I suggest that you shut up and stop making a bigger mug of yourself than you already have. How do you do you 'tear up' a world cup ,they are made of gold you idiot.

35. Ozzie

    May 29, 2014, 11:50 #52130

    Ron, did you know this: Guy Fawkes was the only man to have entered parliament with honest intentions?

36. jjetplane

    May 29, 2014, 11:49 #52129

    IKECHUKWU great stand out post that ticks all the reality boxes - let's form The Real Arsenal right now! I've got a fiver in the bank. Interesting that Athletico had the same wage bill as Fulham which puts Le Prof's 'project' in perspective. Get in players who will hopefully maintain CL admission and then rip the muggie fans off left right and centre. Should have asked for Poyet in return for Flapsville - not making that up. He could be our Simeone ...

37. Amos

    May 29, 2014, 11:43 #52127

    Is Arsenal a Real or Bayern - or a Dortmund or Atletico? My vote is None Of The Above - it's Arsenal unique and special in many ways. I'm with Badarse and to a lesser extent Ron on the issue of football being a form escapism but maybe we all want to escape to and from different things. If you're in a bar of supporters with the option of spending time with different groups one perhaps forever bleating and whining about how terrible everything is, seeing the flaws but dismissing any positive thought, constantly berating those with the power to do anything, - howling at the moon as Badarse accurately describes it - and another group taking it seriously enough be frustrated when aspirations aren't met but not too seriously as not to understand and appreciate the history and ethos of the club - relishing our different ways and approach as Badarse suggests - all while enjoying some banter, which unless it's good natured is not banter, but essentially positive about the leisure time they invest in supporting their club and any joy they can get out of it, then which group would be the most attractive to you? Which group would you really want to spend most time with? Football is escapism for many but it's more surprising to me that it seems to be more like incarceration for some.

38. Ozzie

    May 29, 2014, 11:18 #52125

    Well spoken Charlie. I wonder if too many are still buoyed by the heady days of the Invicibles? On the CL (not that I care much about it) but take into account that stupid last gasp goal Arsenal let in against Napoli that sent Dortmund to the top of the group and set Arsenal on a different path as I had a feeling that we would live to regret that.

39. Ron

    May 29, 2014, 11:10 #52124

    Morning BADARSE - I see where you're coming from, but if nothing else football is escapist, its romance, its a 'buzz', its about energy, its camerarderie and most importantly its about a release from everyday mores and frustrations.With all due respect,while you can freely examine footie in context of society's ills if you wish for most people supporting a football Club stands aside from it. Its for the administrators of the Club to look at things in an economic and social context. Fans aren't interested. If the Club want to keep punters interested, it needs to change, for changes sake if you like, its an irrational game and a Club needs staff within it who occasionally act outrageously. Fans love it, they love a big player or two coming in, they love the conflict and contradictions footie brings. They love it when players, coaches and boardrooms do challenging things. The humdrum outlook that you illustrate is for everyday life not football. Arsenal offer nothing but the humdrum and haven't for years. It needs an injection of lifeblood, a coach and a few players to make the blood pulse again. Frankly,your 'be careful what you wish for' had its day at Arsenal a long time since and interprets as 'accept your lot, bad or good, for better or worse'. Great teams and Clubs aren't and never have been built on a diet of that. Arsenal are stale and need to recognise it or prepare for a slow demise.

40. jeff wright

    May 29, 2014, 11:05 #52123

    Ozil, your clumsy attempt at using abuse to try and avoid answering my question is not doing your case any favours. I asked you if Ozil is such an hotshot than why did Perez sell him to us? Now why don't you try answering that instead of posting irrelevant statistics and nonsense about Ozil tearing up the last world cup ,which as I recall was actually won by Spain, who beat Holland in the final , with Ozil nowhere to be seen.I actually believe that it was that senor Fabregas who was involved in the assist for Spain's winning goal. It was also evident that Ronaldo , 51 goals scored for Real this season and a European Cup winners medal won , has not missed the playboy's assists. So then Einstein can you tell us how many goals Ozil scored against top opponents for us, and how many of his assists were against them this season >? I don't want to embarrass you by mentioning how he got on taking penalties .I don't think that Ozil will cut it with us ,he's got the talent,but lacks the bottle in big games,that's why Perez off-loaded him. He will end up in Turkey after next season at Fernabache,they will love him there.

41. Arsene needs to go

    May 29, 2014, 10:43 #52121

    Ozil has been a big flop. I fail to see what exactly makes him "world class" or worth 42m. Real saw he was the problem and flogged him of and replaced him with actual world class players in Bale and won the CL. Another dud.

42. Ozil

    May 29, 2014, 10:29 #52120

    jeff wright If you can't acknowledge Ozil is a world class player then you are an idiot. As for his performances last season fact is he was the highest chance creator in Europe and one of league's top assisters. As for the world cup he tore the last world cup apart. Maybe you should actually watch him play?

43. Charlie

    May 29, 2014, 10:25 #52119

    Bard,You should hang your head in shame wanting Usmanov running the club.It's glory hunting money obsessed fans like you who let your lust for silverware outweigh doing things the proper way. Does anybody really care and congratulate these teams when they wins things, no! Because it's all manufactured.Would the Invincibles have been so revered if they were simply a collection of top players brought together by some dodgy billionaire.

44. WENGER OUT

    May 29, 2014, 10:04 #52116

    DW - Patrick Vieira, Thierry Henry, Cesc Fabregas, Robin Van Persie - I make that 4 captains sold without a decent replacement. Let's not forget that Wenger is now so small time that he went to the European champions and couldn't even fill the bench - He's turned us and himself into an embarrassment and a bad dream that seems never ending. But we finished 4th again, yipee!!!

45. WENGER OUT

    May 29, 2014, 9:47 #52114

    I don't think that drawing parallels between Atletico, Dortmund and Arsenal is a particularly relevant thing to do. Arsenal should be one of the big hitters, it is only the lack of ambition and gradual lowering of expectations that has lead to these clubs overtaking us. We as supporters have been forced to either demand less or prepare to be disappointed - This is simply not acceptable for one of the richest clubs in the world - Sure we don't have a billionaire backer (the boards choice), but neither do Bayern and they manage to 'compete'. We need to demand more from our club, we cannot allow them to preside over another summer like last - Without at least 4-5 signings we will struggle to make top 4, never mind competing - And no, that doesn't mean Wenger is a genius if we get 4th place with a couple of French second division freebies, it just means another missed opportunity.

46. jeff wright

    May 29, 2014, 8:44 #52113

    Ozil,if your namesake is such an hotshot then why did Perez sell him to us ? Try engaging your brain before you answer this, and tbh this rosy picture you paint of the randy little Turk playboy is all at odds with what I have seen of him in our shirt .Perhaps though you live in a parallel universe and just pop in to our one now and then and get confused . Let's see how he fares in Brazil ,I suspect that England are not the only side that will come home disappointed, with no European one ever having won the cup in South America.

47. BADARSE

    May 29, 2014, 8:32 #52112

    Morning my little soufflés, you are sweet things of unbearable lightness, as Milan Kundera might note. We all want different things in life, some crave a glitzy kitsch room, others a minimalist one and some a darker leathery-type. So too with football and clubs. One poster listed having a rich toe rag like Usmanov as our pathway to unbridled success. Some would die inside, silently if he did throw money at the club-I would anyway. Not right or wrong, just different views and desires. Our history, our heritage, is quite unique. We cannot stand toe to toe with other clubs and their modus operandi, we follow different ways, have other approaches. Much about our financial direction irritates the life out of me, but other aspects please me no end. So work that one out. Comparing with others, either as a club or personal attainment/achievement, is a road strewn with self-doubt and uncertainty. It can breed a sense of arrogance that borders a superiority psyche, and we've witnessed a few despots in our time who travelled this route. It can also push people into inferiority complexes who then clamour for success at any price-this is where the statement, 'Be careful what you wish for', is most apt. Those who believe a change of manager answers all questions are over-simplifying, those who rail against the board as an isolated entity are howling at the moon. Life is far too complicated and structured nowadays. The grey men will not allow power to be wrested from them very easily, and all controlling operations have the 'grey men' cloak about them. It's easier, and perhaps more soothing for the mind to just give up on football and concentrate on any current piffle that the clot Simon Cowell serves up. Alternatively recognise what is going on around, that we are adrift in a tumultuous sea of change, that we, us, our society and football club are merely corks bobbing on the waves. Yet with all it's ugliness and superficiality, our club is still the best there is.

48. Henry

    May 29, 2014, 7:38 #52110

    We have more finacial power than both Dortmund and Atletico.But there is one thing holding us back.Our manager.Any team can win the FA cup look who won it last year.But a team is judged over 38 games.Last year we finished 4th this year we finished 4th and our hopes for next year is to finish 4th.Sadly some of our fans have been brainwashed into think 4th IS a trophy.

49. Bard

    May 29, 2014, 7:16 #52109

    Rocky et al; appreciate all the comments positive or otherwise. The question for you detractors is this if we are such a big club, someone posted in the top 3, why aren't we competing and why haven't we won any of the trophies for nearly a decade. To blame it all on Wenger is crass. We may have been a top club in the past but the landscape has changed forever. Unless Usmanov buys the club and injects masses of cash we will never be in the position to buy these really top players. It's deluded nonsense to believe otherwise. Unfortunately Rocky the club exploit fans like you who love the club by selling you an unrealistic dream that they have no note tips of ever trying to fulfil. I don't always like the way Dortmund or Athletico play but I love their togetherness,their resolve and their connection with their fans.

50. Joe S.

    May 29, 2014, 5:22 #52108

    I think that with the Spuds signing Pochettino, they have made one of the best choices possible, one that looks to the future and demonstrates real ambition. The few times I saw him playing he seemed like an old style Argentinian, possessing skill, guile and hated to lose. Early days but I think this has also come across in his management. I know we write off Spurs every year but I wouldn't bet on it this season. Arsenal are treading water with Arsene Wegner and have missed out on another promising manager who could have taken the club forward.

51. Ozil

    May 29, 2014, 4:06 #52107

    Arsene is the best man for the job and has us playing football the right way. You want the disgusting football the likes of Mourinho, Simeone serves. Also the lightweight are actual skillful football players not big physical strong brainless thugs who run around who you want. Also our fans are classy and not a bunch of "fortress mentality" like Chelsea fans who we need to avoid. No doubt you prefer Ross Barkley over Ozil because he is a thug runs around brainlessly unlike Ozil who is one of the best players in the world an amazing player and the most talented player at this club.

52. DW Thomas

    May 29, 2014, 1:01 #52106

    I am as proud of this clubs history and trophies as anyone. However, we have been in a failure wasteland of our own making. Wenger needs a metaphorical wake up slap to shake things up at the club. Stagnation and poor losses against major rivals does not a top club make. We have the potential to be bigger than anyone in England, maybe the world now. But, that will take intelligent modern thinking, some risk and daring, solid tactics, and way better players in key areas than we have now. When we had Henry we still couldn't win the CL, remember. He had to go to the dominant team at the time to do so. And, you don't sell your best and remain a big club, let alone your captain, twice! Change is needed now, not later or others may pass us by. We got a little lucky Everton couldn't keep their run going and that United was so poor. And a place to start is never, ever, ever again celebrating like 4th is a trophy. That's what wannabes do!

53. Charlie

    May 28, 2014, 23:27 #52105

    We don't need to model ourselves on anybody.We're the Arsenal 'The club' of English football. The only embarrassing thing for us is having such tiny tott neighbours. I loved the ninetees and noughties when it was Arsenal and Manure.Talk Sport are currently debating who is bigger out of Tottingham and Southampton and we have these losers as our supposed rivals.It's pathetic.

54. jeff wright

    May 28, 2014, 22:46 #52104

    Ikechukwu, good points but years of Wenger brainwashing supporters has resulted in this situation where our club is looked on as being a bit of joke now ,rather than being taken seriously by opponents. As you point out a manager and his players and supporters who manically celebrated finishing 4th in the league can't really be taken seriously. There are still some of us though who are fighting for change and will carry on doing so . We really should be doing better than just a FAC win in the last 9 years ,apart from having to endure those embarrassing beatings away to the likes of Liverpool and worse still... Mourinho's Chelsea.

55. KC

    May 28, 2014, 22:39 #52103

    This article is like a decision to give up and look down rather than up. We have all in place to aim to compete at the top level, sure we don't have city and cfc unlimited funds but we have enough to go up against them. We require our manager and board to want the success we crave and use the power we now have, smart investment and a game plan that is not fantasy football should follow. We are not that far away but if our manager does not change his mindset the gap will widen, right now I believe it's attitude that is our weakness not finance as there is enough to give us a real chance.

56. maguiresbridge gooner

    May 28, 2014, 22:38 #52102

    Yes Bard our thoughts have turned to next season already and like all the others it's more of the same with the spin machine already mobilised with the usual lapping it up, with the old war chest piece being the first to be aired, and just wait until we're being linked with this player and that (real world class players)if we're not already and it'll be in full flow and have tongues hanging out in anticipation all over the place. But will it be a case of kicking on or yet another false dawn and just spin again? If we want to kick on and be one of the big boys their going to have to find the key to this war chest, and even then will it be opened and the right/proper additions made? and not the usual lightweights you mention. I think a lot of fans can hazard a guess to that one and they'll not be far wrong. Good article.

57. Ikechukwu

    May 28, 2014, 22:27 #52101

    Funny to read ppl like Rocky RIP talk about how we "should act and think like a big club". For that to happen, we'd need ambitious fans for starters. Fact: no Atletioc or big club manager would ever go 3 years without a a trophy and keep his job - let alone 9! For Arsenal to think and act like a big club would require our fans to not wax lyrical about mediocre garbage like Giroud, Sanogo, Jenkinson and Arteta. For Arsenal to act like a big club would mean that going 10 years without finishing in the top 2 of the league is simply, unacceptable. For Arsenal to start acting like a big club means that there can be no excuses for losing 6-0, 5-1 and 6-3. Any big club manager that loses 3 big matches in such disgraceful fashion is sacked on the spot, FA Cup or not. For Arsenal to act like a big club means that our fan base need to grow a set of balls, and demand standards. That means no excuses about "cannot compete financially", when Simeone won a league title despite having a wage bill that is a QUARTER of Arsenal's and competing against the 2 richest most powerful clubs in Europe. Hearing our idiotic fans peddle excuses about "cannot compete with oil money", as the fans are asked to pay the highest ticket prices in Europe, and as the CEO is paid £2mil a year, and the Specialist in Failure manager paid a laughable £8 mil a year, well...you've got to laugh! Still. Arsene won the FA Cup don't you know? He's now ranking alongside legends like Harry Redknapp, who also managed a solitary FA Cup win in a 10 year period (at Portsmouth).... Big club? The club whose players celebrated 4th place at S James park last season? LOL

58. Rocky RIP

    May 28, 2014, 21:56 #52100

    @Finsbury Joe - I know, (we all know) that you are merely a wind up merchant from the Middlesex cesspit with nothing to celebrate at your end so you come on here and pollute this forum, so I should learn to ignore you like everyone else does. However, please name one, single, solitary part of Arsenal winning the FA Cup that was fortuitous. Please don't say Hull were unlucky, they got away with FOUR penalties. We cut it fine against Wigan and Arsenal fans were seriously worried, but did Wigan really deserve to win? Did they f. I could keep going. Right back to beating your lot. Every team that wins a cup gets some luck, but I'm not having you coming out with drivel without backing it up with examples. Good luck, away you go.

59. Rocky RIP

    May 28, 2014, 21:43 #52099

    Arsenal were probably the most famous club in world football in the 1930s. Pioneers and innovators, respected throughout football. Have Dortmund ever been in this position? They have a lot I like about them as a club, especially how the club and its fans are more connected, safe standing, etc, but should we really be 'aspiring' to be at Dortmund's level? Never forget who we are and where we've come from. We are The Arsenal.

60. N4

    May 28, 2014, 21:41 #52098

    You mean unlike us the club don't have a close bond with their fans!

61. Finsbury Joe

    May 28, 2014, 21:41 #52097

    Kick on, no chance. This club are closer to Burnley than Bayern. Some people have let the fortuitous gathering of a shiny thing paper over the crevasses

62. Carlos

    May 28, 2014, 21:34 #52096

    I think that given the amount of cash we have sloshing about in the current account we can aspire to a great deal more than the fans of Atlético and Dortmund can. What's holding us back can probably be found on the respective benches and in the scouting departments of the different clubs.

63. Big Andy

    May 28, 2014, 21:26 #52095

    Stupid article. We are a huge club, the third biggest in England, and should start acting like it. That's why 'fourth is a trophy' is an insult to our supporters. It's time to bring in a manager with the skill and desire to take us to that next level and turn us into champions. Wenger can't do it any more. Clubs like Dortmond and Athletico are the Evertons of their countries, yet they are successful. We could be with the right boss.

64. RDT - 4

    May 28, 2014, 21:20 #52094

    Why aren't we the biggest club in the Premier League, if not Europe? Look at what we've got - Enormous world wide fanbase, billionaire oligarch, illustrious history and a large, modern stadium. No other PL club can tick ALL the boxes. Our problems are solely down to personnel. Just get rid of the board and manager and their archaic methods of running a football club and our problems will be over. Probably.

65. northbank123

    May 28, 2014, 21:12 #52093

    The reference to Dortmund reminds me of what was our best performance in years. Earlier this season we went to a superior and confident team in an intimidating environment. We were phenomenally well disciplined and even seeing little of the ball we stuck to the game plan and it paid dividends when they tired and the game opened up for us slightly. Professional and class. Why oh why does Wenger then either decide to set up unbelievably negatively or unbelievably recklessly in all the big domestic games??? That night was arguably the best execution of a tactical gameplan we have seen under Wenger, then he went to United and tried to play for a 0-0 about 4 days later, failing to change anything when we went 1-0 down inside half an hour. Genuinely can't fathom it.

66. Ron

    May 28, 2014, 20:06 #52092

    Rocky - absolutely correct there. I think The premise underlying Bards comments (certainly my own)is that the status of the Club as you paint it is indeed a given but that the Club either disregard it (shameful), take it for granted (fatal) and yet nontheless refuse to 'act'like what they are. Watching an Arsenal team slope off, cowed battered, bruised and smashed by a small time Club (Chelsea) by comparison is totally at variance with what Arsenal should allow to occur. Losses are one thing, humblings are another and it's the latter that the Club seem now to take for granted, yet spin an 'everythings rosy in the garden' picture to gullible fans.

67. Rocky RIP

    May 28, 2014, 19:46 #52090

    Are Arsenal the biggest club never to have won the European Cup/Champions league? If not, name who is. If so, is it deluded to have the ambition to strive to be amongst the elite names? (Chelsea and City may have the finances, but they could never dream of the turnout we had for our cup parade and the worldwide fanbase we have. Not to mention the trophy haul. They are medium sized clubs that won the lottery and will no doubt grow and grow.) In terms of worldwide fan base and trophy hauls, we are in the top 3 biggest clubs in England along with Man Utd and Liverpool, and should think and act like one. Nothing deluded in that.

68. Ron

    May 28, 2014, 19:38 #52089

    Arsene knows - do people like you ever think before you type youre brand of twaddle or do you have anything to think with? Madrid if memory serves me have about 10-12 titles to their name and the same amount of spanish Cups with a euro pedigree similar to Arsenal. Dortmund have about 10 titles, a few German Cups and a euro pedigree markedly better than Arsenals. Its the likes of you with your garbage like that which sustains Arsenal's present inertia. 'nothing Clubs'? Youre such a mug!

69. Ron

    May 28, 2014, 19:14 #52088

    Bard - 'instead of peddling the line that we can compete'. Youre asking for the impossible there my friend, AFC morphing into an entity thats actually being honest as opposed to peddling the spin they've mastered ever since they moved to Ashburton Grove.Aint gonna happen. Too much money to be made fleecing those who still go there and deny the reality of what the Clubs become.

70. Michael

    May 28, 2014, 18:48 #52086

    Good article, right on the ball.

71. Arsene knows

    May 28, 2014, 18:22 #52084

    Atletico and Dortmund got to finals due to easy draws they are nothing clubs. I'm glad you have nothing to do with Arsenal, you would have us relegated with nonsense like this.

72. I remember when Arsenal cared about its fans.

    May 28, 2014, 18:19 #52083

    Of course we could be matching Dortmund and Athletico, start by having supporter representatives on the board. The truth would then not be PR spun by Ivan the Terrible except by exposing themselves!

73. Ozil

    May 28, 2014, 18:11 #52082

    Why don't you watch Atletico and Dortmund themselves as that is what you want? Most Arsenal fans prefer the skillful players, fancy football we have instead of the limited hardworking thugs, boring counter thug football , they play. Atletico and their leader thug Simeone were embarrasing to watch in the final thankfully a team who plays football the right way won the CL.

74. Mike

    May 28, 2014, 18:09 #52081

    Like any business, Wenger would have to go through the board for approval before any major purchase

75. Kenny

    May 28, 2014, 17:39 #52078

    winning_starts_here - The board has nothing do with the footballing side. It is in complete control of Wenger. The board have the best interests of the club the problem is they have no footballing knowledge. Wenger has taken advantage of this and runs his own crusades like a dictator. Lord Harris said we could buy anyone we want except Messi Ronaldo and we could easily break our record if we wanted to. The problem is the manager fix that we are back to where we belong.

76. winning_starts_here

    May 28, 2014, 17:25 #52077

    The Arsenal board have fed us the line over the last 8 years that we've been paying off the stadium so we couldn't spend big. The stadium is now essentially paid off and we've just paid the 3rd largest transfer fee in English Football history for Ozil. We also got Flamini and Sanogo on free transfers. So the question remains: Has the board really been telling the truth or not. Anyone who says they conclusively know either way is just being silly and lying to themselves... We can never truly know unless we've seen the financials ourselves. But, we will certainly have some idea by the end of this transfer window. If they really were telling the truth we will sign one or two big names for big money, as well as sticking to the youth policy that is now thoroughly The Arsenal Way.

77. Kenny

    May 28, 2014, 17:25 #52076

    Lol we are far above Atletico and Dortmund level. With our spending power we can compete and have squads the level of Bayern and Madrid. The only problem is a we have a manager who is more concerned with his philosopy than winning. With a proper manager we will reach that level. We aren't even far of that level. Get Cavani, Di Maria, Martinez, Sagna's replacement and we have the best team in PL.

78. jeff wright

    May 28, 2014, 17:25 #52075

    soylent green, we drew a lot of games against the top sides at home . United( albeit the worst one since they were relegated) Chelsea ,City,Everton, so that adds up to 8 points dropped there,then there was the 3 dropped in the first game v Villa and 2 against Swansea,should have been 3 but the ref did us a favour . There is certainly room for improvement in our home results regarding the top teams - a draw is usually regarded as a good point gained away but it's 2 dropped at home. More mental strength is needed against the top sides at home and away because we don't usually even get a point away against them . In fact heavy defeats are often the case .

79. soylent_green

    May 28, 2014, 16:39 #52071

    Actually, I think we already are like Dortmund and Athletico. They've each had 1 appearance in the Champions league final in the last fifteen years. They've also won the their respective leagues but they have fewer rich clubs ahead of them; 1 in the case Dortmund and 2 in the case of Athletico. I also don't really understand the what a fortress is if 1 league loss in the whole season doesn't count as one. We also won more silverware than Dortmund this season. Sounds like a case of can't see the forest for the trees imho.

80. Mike

    May 28, 2014, 16:34 #52069

    Good to see Giroud netting two good goals for France against Norway last night

81. jw

    May 28, 2014, 16:25 #52068

    No