Will Arsène Wenger ever reach his holy grail?

Has Le Boss stayed on just to try and win the Champions League?



Will Arsène Wenger ever reach his holy grail?


Amid all that will be said by Wenger and the club as to why he is staying on for another three years, one cold, possibly selfish, fact is behind the decision - the determination and desperation of Arsène Wenger to add the words “Champions League winner” to his CV. The Champions League is Wenger’s obsession; his desire to win it is what in reality motivates our private and somewhat reclusive manager to get out of the bed in the morning. He craves a place at the top table of managers who have conquered Europe. He knows deep down that he is doomed to be remembered as the Tim Henman of football management unless he can achieve it.

The great paradox of Arsène Wenger’s career is that, despite the transformative effect he has had on English football as “Le Professeur”, he has never mastered European competition, and is the unlucky holder of runners-up medals in all three cup competitions. So why has this been the case, and will three more years make any difference? In my view the knowledge that his best-ever opportunity to win it is behind him has had an impact on his mental health in recent years. He also knows that in 2004 he could have had any job in Europe, but not any more. So Arsenal is his only chance to win the one trophy he really, really wants.

Arsène Wenger has never conquered Europe because of his dogmatic and blind adherence to his principles. Wenger abhors negative tactics, and bases his approach around his team playing in their own way and not worrying about the opponents. (We know this because prior to the FA Cup final Lukas Podolski had apparently not even heard of Hull forward Matty Fryatt. José Mourinho, in comparison, would have drilled into his players how to deal with the threat posed by the opponent’s strikers). And it is true that in the League, where his Arsenal team have more often than not been technically superior to their opponents, this approach usually bears fruit. We are usually able to outscore the likes of Wigan, Hull, Sunderland and Norwich.

However, Europe requires an entirely different approach. The Champions League knock-out stages are a sprint not a marathon. Each two-legged tie is a game of chess that requires a tactical roadmap in order for your team to overcome it. It is also the case that in Europe you are likely to face teams who are your technical equals or superiors. So conquering Europe requires you to come up with a tactical plan for dealing with your opponents; in fact it demands it. And Arsène Wenger is simply incapable of doing this.

Think about it. How much tactical work on nullifying the opponents do you think the team did before the two Bayern Munich home games? I would guess very little, and much less than Chelsea did in 2012 against Barcelona and Bayern Munich. Playing Bayern calls for a deep and flat back four, and above all else a focus on not conceding, with the aim of getting a goal when you can. However in the two home games our defence was all over the place. Alex Ferguson usually favoured an attacking approach but was willing to be pragmatic on occasions, such as against Barcelona in 2008.

Our successful 1994 Cup Winners Cup final defeat of Parma is a case in point. George Graham recognised that his team were technically inferior to the Italians and focused on how to nullify them. If Wenger had been the manager he would have sent his team out to take Parma on in an open contest and would have lost.

So, Wenger is sure to come up short in his obsession. You can’t teach an old dog new tricks, and, at 64, Wenger certainly is an old dog. So, three more barren years lie ahead in Europe, and then what, yet another contract in yet another futile bid for one man to reach the pinnacle of his career?


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170
comments

  1. northbank123

    Jun 15, 2014, 22:17 #52988

    As long as I've got a hole in my arse the closest Wenger is ever getting to the CL trophy is commentating on the final for TF1 or Al-Jazeera.

  2. Ozzie

    Jun 15, 2014, 14:25 #52962

    The fudge is meant to go in your gob not your eye. Did you pinch it from the kid's tuckshop? You brought back memories - us boys used to play eye spy in the dark back in Buckhurst Hill. Adios Amigos!

  3. BADARSE

    Jun 15, 2014, 13:26 #52957

    Yes Athoz it is! You must have played this before-your good at this, aren't you? Your go! Not a too difficult one because I've got something in my eye.

  4. Ozzie

    Jun 15, 2014, 12:49 #52953

    Is it Diaby's knee?

  5. BADARSE

    Jun 15, 2014, 12:19 #52949

    Drat! I just puffed the ball through your posts Athoz and then it rolled off the table and you went and stood on it. No more footballs left and grapes roll in circles, let's play 'I-Spy', I'm good at this. Bagsy my go first. I spy with my little eye something beginning with...fudge.

  6. Red Member

    Jun 15, 2014, 10:32 #52941

    Wenger has about as much chance of winning the Champions League as England have of ever winning the World Cup again

  7. Ozzie

    Jun 15, 2014, 7:00 #52937

    Haha. anyone for blow football?

  8. BADARSE

    Jun 15, 2014, 6:00 #52935

    Good evening my dear Athoz, I guess that has to be the answer chum. As you are in/at Oz...it's almost like a stage in your life, or a sympton isn't it. 'How bad is it Doctor?', 'well he's at Oz, I'm afraid to say!', 'Oh no Doctor. How long does he have?', 'I would say as long as he can put up with it.' ha ha. Joel Campbell is going to be a 'Gun', buddy.

  9. Ozzie

    Jun 14, 2014, 13:06 #52900

    G'day Aramis, no I don't geddit. Pray tell - I'm all ears.

  10. BADARSE

    Jun 14, 2014, 8:29 #52892

    Athos my old pal, I couldn't bequeath the name of Aramis to westlower as he was a champion darts player, so took it myself, though I too have won a couple of Mickey Mouse trophies. He is from the landed gentry and hob-nobs around the country so port would seem a likely tipple. You are after all 'at Oz' (geddit?). Sometimes I am so sharp I cut my own throat. Tizer was a favourite of the family's when I was a tiddler. Then there was the Corona man who would take your order and drive around weekly delivering your 'pop'! Used to go down East Lane with my Dad on a Sunday morning when I wasn't up the chimneys cleaning them. Hot Sarsaparilla was a treat on chilly mornings. Dad coming from Yorkshire meant we were introduced to Dandelion and Burdock at an early age.

  11. Ozzie

    Jun 14, 2014, 6:05 #52886

    Badarse, empathy appreciated. Athos huh? Isn't he the one who drowned all his sorrows in booze? Anyone for a pint - to celebrate Arsenal's season? Losing just 7 games from 38 has to rank pretty high, surely? Re Cazorla - let him go as he is 30 this year. Perhaps he'll do us a favour and take Diaby and Arteta with him. Looking forward to Eng v the theatricals overnight; bring out the spangles & the Tizer!

  12. BADARSE

    Jun 13, 2014, 20:15 #52877

    Just back home and read the posts, all OKish, then I saw Mike/CT Gooner. Thanks for cheering me up fellas, not that I was down before. Not too many compliment each other about such things but I thought the exchanges were nice, so good on you both. Courteous and polite, as we all should be. I'm in the chair and buying you both a virtual pint, cheers. Good old Arsenal!

  13. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jun 13, 2014, 18:39 #52872

    I'm replying to my own post 56005, and it didn't take very long did it? see over the page, just about as long as it takes to buy a can of lighter fluid.

  14. mike

    Jun 13, 2014, 17:18 #52869

    CT Gooner - All good - no problem

  15. CT Gooner

    Jun 13, 2014, 16:16 #52861

    I completely apologize Mike. I directed my venom and rant at you, which was completely misplaced. I just looked back and it was "Adam" who took exception to my post about how crazy it was not to sign Cesc (in my opinion). Again, sorry pal...

  16. jjetplane

    Jun 13, 2014, 15:43 #52853

    Wendy: We cannot compete and some of you suckers believe it! Keep up with your support! Your passion is most gratifying! Let's try and nail fourth before January. Now that would be progression.......

  17. Mike

    Jun 13, 2014, 15:39 #52852

    Ct Gooner -here I am. I am not quite sure what your rant is about - I have yet to commentat all on the Fabregas saga. I will now though. Gutted to see him playing for Chelsea but interested to note that there was not too much interest in him from other parties. So CT gooner there it is and I have no need to appologise...doos and I know you understand that

  18. Bard

    Jun 13, 2014, 14:59 #52851

    CT Gooner; you are dead right. all this b******s about we can't compete financially is a meaningless mantra. Yes we know that but other clubs compete perfectly well by astute signings, clever tactics and a neversaydie attitude. I know we can't afford Ronaldo but the alternative isn't Sanogo, Park, Kallstrom or Gervinho. I sense that things are finely balanced at the moment. If we make some significant signings then the Fabregas debacle might die but if we don't I can foresee trouble ahead. Unsurprisingly I don't think they have realised that turning down the chance to buy him is one thing but allowing him to be sold to the Chavs is another matter altogether. If you remember we almost signed Ba but Maureen vetoed him going to us. My sense, and it is only my opinion, is that the FA cup hasn't quelled the discontent. I think we have a right to expect that the club make significant signings signalling our intention to compete but if we don't I wouldn't be surprised if Wenger's gone by the end of the season.

  19. Peter Wain

    Jun 13, 2014, 14:55 #52850

    no chance to win CL. Wenger dithers so much in the transfer market. If Cazorla wants to go we should have sold him and bought Fabregas.

  20. CT Gooner

    Jun 13, 2014, 14:18 #52848

    Look, if the new world order is spending within our means, I can live with that, but when did that mean giving up on ambition? Plenty of young, hungry, tactically astute managers are out there, so why do we give a new contract to a Wenger? Why not drop the ticket price to the 4th highest in England, not the highest in the world, and get a manager like Martinez? We can all say get use to it, but the way the squads shaping up, we'll be lucky to finish 6th.And that's below Spurs, is that what we want?? Not F.ing me!

  21. AFC's 26 game EPL season + 8 game CL

    Jun 13, 2014, 14:10 #52847

    I agree. There's 12 matches we play each year where our win percentage is 10-20%. then theres 8 CL matches where our win percentage is usually 40% and we know we NEVER win our group. to change these stats costs money / investment. But even with investment there is a RISK of no change i.e. no further success. AFC have done the calculations and decided on their long term strategy and we all know what it is. Yes u might win a fa cup as Portsmouth and Wigan proved.

  22. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jun 13, 2014, 13:35 #52846

    JW, and it might stay on the tracks long enough to fool everybody and get a new contract, until it breaks down again and is shunted off the tracks and back into the garage.

  23. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jun 13, 2014, 13:21 #52845

    DW, nothing will change mate, absolutely nothing, a lot of fans know it, and have done for a long time, other fans keep thinking it will, and live in hope and then carry on regardless.

  24. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jun 13, 2014, 12:52 #52844

    I suppose it will be only a matter of time till the wenger luvvies start planning the first return of Fabregas to the Emirates in a chavs shirt i see one is well on his way already, i wouldn't be surprised if it was the first order of business when AKB central command reopens in August, with the old turning of the backs on the player getting overwhelming support. You couldn't make it up.

  25. BADARSE

    Jun 13, 2014, 12:47 #52843

    You are a Wizard Oz! Wow, that was soulful. So melancholic. That affected me. In a rush we are at our grandson's school fair this evening, we have to go and set up, am on Tuck Shop duties, more talk of chocolates! No Spangles, Refreshers, Fruit Salads, Blackjacks, Gobstoppers, Flying Saucers, Cough Candy, Banana Split Palm Toffee, Winter Mixture or Barley Sugar... nor Nux Bars, sadly. Will connect in a deeper fashion when time allows. You are entering the group of three, and three, and three, ad infinitum. Immediately along with westlower-Porthos, and myself Aramis, I dub thee Athos, (that's not Athoz), brothers in arms. Arise Musketeer. All for one, and a free for all. Red and White dreams Gooner. Here's my lullaby to you, 'We won the Cup, we won the Cup...'

  26. Ozzie

    Jun 13, 2014, 12:26 #52842

    Greetings & salutations to you Badarse. Am I a wizard? Perhaps in my own mind, yes. Ok, here's the gen: My wife is from Shilton, Warwickshire & arrived 1964 (in time for the Beatle hysteria.) My mum was a Londoner whose husband abandoned her during the war when she was in pod. Transported to Manchester where she gave birth to a Wizard :-)I spent my childhood 4-11 in a children's home in Buckhurst Hill. Mum remarried thence to Oz 1957. They returned to Eng & left me here alone, aged 14. I became a street kid then a hippie (Timothy Leary wasn't dead..)Flew with angels & supp'd with the devil and then, this sheila came along & fished me out. I stumbled on The Middle Path (tho I tend to over balance & lean left, sometimes). I once befriended an anarchist who helped me see through all the crap & now I really do not align to anything - I am a solitary soul & influenced by Krishnamurti & Alan Watts. I am a nice fellow but am ever mindful of the shadow. This life has taught me to go beyond political & national allegiances - though I must admit the last time I looked down over Heathrow I did shed several tears & felt a tearing of a bond. I did 2 years psych nursing in Eng & was fortunate to watch the Gooners win the '71 double. Your view of Aust as an identical fermentation is not too far off the mark, either. Hi Westlower, the celeb culture - how nauseating! Good to connect with you fellas - I've been a lone Gooner for too long down here. Take care.

  27. BADARSE

    Jun 13, 2014, 10:54 #52840

    Ozzie, I know I ask questions, but was always taught that was a good thing, my Dad would say the biggest word in the dictionary is 'Why', and told me to never stop asking it. My question is this Oz, are you a wizard?

  28. Sad about Cesc but its reality

    Jun 13, 2014, 10:34 #52839

    His agent as we know is David Dein's son Danial. same as RVP. Cesc wanted to come back. Wenger wanted the 5M that chelsea have to pay AFC as part of the buy back option clause. Wenger also didnt like the 200k/week wages despite it is the same salary that he gets. He also thought Cesc would overshadow ramsey and Jack. Personally I would do without Arteta, lower my own salary as manager and told everyone to welcome Cesc back with open arms. Wenger does not want to beet Chelsea, City, Utd or Liverpool as we saw this year. He wants to focus on the 26 matches against the bottom 13 teams and aim for 68-70 points from these matches. he then only needs to get 8-10 points from the 12 matches against the top 6 teams. Of course as a fan alot of us do not like this. We want to believe that our club wants to beat top 6 teams. Unfortunately this is an illusion. Wenger will talk up these matches as he knows the crowd loves them but in reality he will not invest more to make sure we do better in these games. it doesnt make economic sense in his and the board's mind.

  29. BADARSE

    Jun 13, 2014, 10:32 #52838

    Morning 24601, am still singing, though a loud helping of U2 taking Charlie to school kind of washed over that one, ha ha. He likes U2 also, am winning in tiny little pockets. Oh Simon Cowell, David Beckham. One a manipulator, the other the arch-manipulated. It's funny how someone who hits on a wheeze and milks it for all it's worth is deemed an entrepreneur and often knighted, being regarded as a 'Captain of Industry', as in Cowell's contemptuous box of TV tricks. Riding alongside is the individual fighting against the system, devoting their lives in a little backwater, suffering humiliation and deprivation of many kinds and they are either overlooked, ignored or have their characters assassinated by the vested interests. One irony with the USA is that they are a nation delivering a view that everyone should stand on their own two feet, even the one-legged man, yet their children's programmes are all about being kind, rejecting the oppressor and bully, giving and helping the less fortunate. Odd that it is swallowed by the young only to manifest itself in adults as a selfish, 'because I'm worth it', attitude. OK, back to the singing Butch. Get on your bike, together now, ready? 'Raindrops keep falling on their heads...'

  30. Westlower

    Jun 13, 2014, 10:18 #52837

    @Jeff, I'm certainly cheered in the knowledge that Diaby is back. For all his injuries and setbacks he remains a very talented footballer. I'm a great believer in the saying that you can't be down all the time, so here's hoping Diaby's fortunes are on the up. @Ozzie, We became Americans once we embraced the celeb culture, w***ers like Simon Cowell & Beckham have much to answer for.

  31. BADARSE

    Jun 13, 2014, 10:00 #52836

    Evening Ozzie. Your observations are correct, ironically I view Australia as an identical fermentation. Here is the nub for me, I see a trend and am suspicious of it. I talk of it and meet like-minded souls. We discuss, learning from each other until the trend is a movement against which we stand opposed. Along the way some drop out. Finally you find yourself almost isolated in your own private 'land of reluctant refusal', a refusal to be dragged along with the masses. To try to maintain independent thought. Then you are a loony, or a 'leftie', or much worse. C'est la vie as we say at the Arsenal! So did you and the wife hail from England, you didn't answer any questions before. Nux bar, remember?

  32. jeff wright

    Jun 13, 2014, 9:41 #52835

    One thing that puzzles me is why it is that journeyman Fabregas will win the Prem and CL for Chelsea, when he failed to win La Liga and the CL last season for Barcelona, a team with Messi in it. Also I must say that Oscar is a better player than Fabregas ,he's also younger than him and he couldn't win Mourinho anything last term. Mourhinho's fortunes will depend on sorting out the striker problem that he admitted last season to having . He said that Chelsea's problem is that we don't have a top striker . It's not any certainty cthat certain that he will sort this problem out ,but at least he will try.

  33. Ozzie

    Jun 13, 2014, 9:25 #52834

    Badarse, to an 'outsider looking in' it is worth noting how much of the American lingo you lot have adopted without even realising it including the description 'dumbed down.' My wife and I have observed with sadness, massive changes in the English psyche over the past four decades. The UK is an American outpost in so many respects, therefore you all suffer the same conditioning as the yanks. Their influence is widespread and the best one can do is view it objectively and 'be with them but not of them, so to speak. Once you surrender your self sovereignty then, sure, you join the herd. Very dangerous the herd mentality - a powerful tool in the hands of the puppeteer. Say, you're right about the chocolate bars - just when you develop a taste for a new choc it disappears off the shelf - have you noticed that? We'll have to talk Cesc into buying the factory to produce all our old favourites. :-)

  34. jeff wright

    Jun 13, 2014, 9:16 #52833

    All our speculation (yawn) is about Vela and Kallstrom, ha! Hey cheer up Diaby is back ! And he will be like ... all together now ... This little train goes down the track Down the track It comes chugging down the track down the track With a choo-choo, choo, toot-toot toot This little train goes down the track down the track All day long.

  35. Chris

    Jun 13, 2014, 9:14 #52832

    Why is it that the most anti-Wenger posts often have questionable spelling and grammar? Oh that's right - it's because they are posted by Spuds and Chavs.....

  36. Westlower

    Jun 13, 2014, 8:43 #52830

    The Totts are now being replaced by Chavs on this site. @Badarse, Join in the chorus; "I can see clearly now the rain has gone...."

  37. Specailist in failure

    Jun 13, 2014, 8:29 #52829

    Once again Wenger shows what a specialist in failure he is by letting a world class player loved by the fans go the rivals who will win them the league. This is why he is and forever has been the specalist in failure while Mourinho is a winner. Mourinho will humiliate Wenger even worse with at 10-0 at SB with Cesc destroying Wenger's average team and 5-0 at the Emirates as well. Mourinho signs two world class players - Costa and Cesc Rodgers signs the depth needed for his class team Wenger lets a world class player go rivals basically handing them to league and is of commentating at the world cup instead of doing anything useful to the club. Can't wait for the Specailist in failure Wenger to be humiliated by Maureen as he wins CL and PL with Cesc

  38. BADARSE

    Jun 13, 2014, 8:21 #52828

    Bard, the USA have dumbed down their society to such an extent it is laughable to those outside looking in. The main motivation for this is power. Power to control-it works! The USA is a consumer's paradise, to others existing in the real world it is the opposite. With that power/control it directs the masses constantly in every single aspect of life, which chocolate bar to buy, whether the prisoner on Death Row should be pardoned or not. It has it's drawbacks though. People can become unruly if an idea takes root. Those in control accept this and let the herd mentality continue-always trying to ensure the herd doesn't become a mob. We have adopted the same criteria in our society but there is a slightly more intelligent acceptance level by the populace, (only slightly at the moment because the way of life is still in it's infancy). Kallstrom never became a debate. It was an offering to pursue a point, that being that he could do a job, he is the type of player I want at AFC, and the merits and demerits of young, intermediate and older players of a similar ability as a comparison with the problems they might bring, and of course the benefits. Fabregas was a non-story. He left a club and went to another. Only a concern because we had flames fanned by the media, and he ultimately went to a direct rival. Two created circumstances outside our reasonable control. I understand that, and am comfortable with it. If others don't and aren't then they need to regard those manipulating them more closely. A loose term but I often refer to these grey men as the 'Puppet Masters'. Acknowledge that and things can become clearer and more understandable. There is a constant and silent battle going on, people have to recognise this, then adapt to resist these influences.

  39. nathan

    Jun 13, 2014, 7:57 #52827

    If you lose 8-2 to manu,6-0 to chel,5-1 to liverpool and make a disgraceful statments like "4th place is like a trophy" ,in any other club,the manager would have been sacked and all players would put for sale before the full time whistle. For some clubs losing 100 mil is less important than humiliating defeat to direct rivals.arsene gives the board what they want,saves money each year and wins 4th place trophy every seasons.

  40. Bard

    Jun 13, 2014, 7:50 #52826

    Whatever we think of the Cesc farce it will be a constant theme throughout the coming season. The Arsenal fans were going crazy on the various sites last night. If we do well it ail be dropped but if we don't and he starts to really perform it will be the focus of the discontent. Its a own goal of epic proportions, talk about making life difficult for yourself. The debate about Kallstrom is an irrelevance, are we now reduced to discussing the merits of a 31 year old journeyman with a dodgy fitness record? Is this how far we have fallen. Ivan says we can afford anyone and we're discussing what a good addition or not Kasllstrom might be, depressing

  41. BADARSE

    Jun 13, 2014, 7:47 #52825

    Good morning my little bowl of prunes, tasty and sweet and very moving. Firstly KC if we have £100million-and I'm not saying we have-and it has to go towards the purchase price of a player and his contract we are arguably talking of £60 million for Fabregas. It wouldn't leave much. If we get a RB for say £16 million and give him £60k pa over four years it equates to £28 million-that would leave money for a £6 million pound purchase and a £30k contract. In other words buy Fabregas and our options become too limited, and that is TOO limited. Of course the other part of my argument is to see AFC utilise the £100 million still sloshing around in the tank. That would completely vindicate the clubs decision. Thank you for the back-handed compliment CT Gooner, I gracefully accept it on behalf of westlower and myself-and you are right, never run and hide, ever! "Look out! Quick! A policeman's coming! Run! Hide!' DW Thomas, just think of the club operating as a business. It has been mooted many times-that doesn't sit comfortably with a fan, I know-and is a clumsy but usable idea. If that is the case the first priority is operating within your means, and sometimes making do. Rightly or wrongly it is how we conduct ourselves. Frustrating from a fan's perspective true, so you have to try to take yourself outside the angst of it all. It can be done. Am getting a man in today to fit safety locks to the upstairs windows.

  42. Westlower

    Jun 13, 2014, 7:31 #52824

    Refreshing that Barcelona have come out with a reason for letting Fabregas go. Apparently his performances in the 2nd half of season have dropped off significantly from his early season displays. Only 8 goals from the final 24 games in the past 3 seasons, 11% strike rate. Strange also that Barcelona are bringing forward payments of £5.6m to Arsenal for targets that Barca achieved after signing CF. That makes the total package of £40m from the sale of Cesc from AFC to Barca. On the flip side Chelsea have committed £69m for transfer fee & 5 year wage deal for Fabregas + unknown agents fees. He'll be 32 at the end of this contract. Is that a good deal? Bookies offer 1/2 he won't score against AFC, 6/4 he will next season. The mystery over Carlos Vela deepens with news AFC are buying him back before a possible further loan move to Real Sociedad. His goal scoring & assists record in Spain are impressive. Maybe his market value far exceeds the £3.3m AFC can buy him for? Car boot sale anyone?

  43. Wenger conned everyone again

    Jun 13, 2014, 6:36 #52823

    Once again the charlatan proves what a fraud he is letting a club legend join our rival. He is conning everyone of like he has done for the last decade. This is completely the pathetic fans we have fault for putting up with Wenger and his cronies. They deserve to get mugged of by Wenger. Whoever still supports Wenger is Anti-Arsenal.

  44. DW Thomas

    Jun 13, 2014, 2:00 #52822

    Badarse. Cesc is in his prime. A deal for a player of his caliber. I just can't drop this story yet. We need good players, fact. Even in our supposedly abundant CMF positions. We have no reliable midfielder who has not been injured for key periods of the season the past 3 years. Diaby, Ramsey, Rosicky, Ozil, Cazorla, every one. To say nobody is doing business before the WC and them Cesc goes to Chelsea makes Arsene look a buffoon. How many times must we put up with these types of occurances/stories? Bring in Cavani or someone as good and fill all the other positions we so badly need and have needed to fill (DM in particular) and maybe Wenger and the club can save face. Sanogo and Vela are nowhere near an answer. The business we do or lack doing rather has a major side effect. It causes our best players, even captains to want to leave. What manager in any other club would be allowed to make these laughable decisions, and we all know this aint the first, but the newest of many? In no sport have I seen a club who claims to want to compete at the highest level do so little to achieve that! I can accept failure when all has been done within our limits to gain that success. We are nowhere near that are we? And that will always bother me. I know, Westower and Badarse with feel I should calm down, others will agree, but what will change? We need to wait patiently till the end of this transfer window, but if it is not a good one, a very good one, we ALL should be up in arms to shout against the dying of the light! The stagnation and humiliation have become to much. And yes, the club, Wenger and Ivan in particular keep promising jam tomorrow. It's all a ruse for greed!

  45. CT Gooner

    Jun 13, 2014, 1:36 #52821

    Where the f is Mike, the muppet telling me I was wrong to believe the rumours that Arsenal weren't going to sign Cesc?? As much as I don't share the views of Badarse and west lower, at least they don't come on here shout Wenger is god and how dare you question him and then run and hide. We'll mike, here's your chance to appologise.

  46. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jun 12, 2014, 23:50 #52820

    As this old clown we have masquerading as a manager entertains his country men in Rio a real prem manager is working hard for his club buying one of the best young players Arsenal ever had,and to top it all a player that wenger and Arsenal had a buy back clause on. You couldn't make it up

  47. KC

    Jun 12, 2014, 22:36 #52818

    DW Thomas - good post and agree with the questions. I would say that Ramsey was looking class before the injury and although it took time I am not surprised at his talent now coming through. We know we can not compete with cfc and city when it comes to spending but they both do all they can with what they have we don't. When we sold RVP and song which in no circumstances was wenger forced to he choose not to even though we had three new players that had never played in the premiership. 40 odd mil not utilised, that's wenger at his frugal and stubborn worse.

  48. KC

    Jun 12, 2014, 22:23 #52817

    Badarse we have money it's that simple.

  49. BADARSE

    Jun 12, 2014, 22:18 #52816

    KC of course his age is against him, as I said. I would still have him right now as a 'golden oldie. I am positive he would give me a service for a season. The best policy is a younger player, but then again, is it? You buy believing you are buying longevity and continuity, then they want to go. Contracts mean very little in the respect of holding onto a player, the length of one just gives you a bigger bargaining chip when you sell. Sometimes a player with a year or two left in their legs can be a better option. I really liked Kallstrom, and a younger version would do for both of us I guess. Ideally an athlete in his prime is the best deal but you begin talking big money then.

  50. KC

    Jun 12, 2014, 22:02 #52815

    Badarse check out kallstroms age. He has seen better days his career is now on the way down. He will collect more and more injuries and is not an improvement on Arteta or any other of our midfielders. We need to improve the first choice 11 and that means a top drawer athletic midfielder who understands the importance of protection of the defence and can sense danger someone in their 20s who is approaching their prime. Added to this a mobile striker that can offer Ozil options.

  51. BADARSE

    Jun 12, 2014, 22:02 #52814

    Phew DW Thomas, take a break buddy. What I will say is this, had Neymar been wearing a red shirt with white sleeves he would have walked for that elbow, and had I been the ref tonight I would have waved it!

  52. DW Thomas

    Jun 12, 2014, 21:40 #52813

    Watching Brazil right now vs. Croatia. Already feeling more excitement about this game than many Arsenal games this past season. And I root for neither team. Agree Kallstrom looked a right good sub and showed some signs of experience and leadership. Yet, Arsene would have never bought him in his prime would he? Lets look at one example of the gulf between us and other teams. Who did we buy immediately after we sold both our captains, Cesc and RVP? Yeah, remember? No one to replace either, and even Ozil was a panic to ease fan tension and last minute. Wenger thinks we are so dumb, I am convinced of his colossal ego! He comes out and says no one will buy before e WC and look at what Chelsea did to spend the money from Luizs sale? They buy Fab and Costa! And they already have 3 strikers arguably better than our one decent one. We can neither compete with nor compare to the best clubs. Why was the Emirates built? Why is Arsene still our manager? Why do we continue to make the same mistakes ad nauseum? Fabregas wants to win. With Arsenal I think first, but why not Chelsea if rejected by us. I can understand him not being every fans cup of tea depending on what ypu like about the game most. But, if you like players with class, skill, heart, and vision, he has those. Fabregas has assisted a winning goal for a WC win. What has Ozil done? Or Ramsey? Yet? He is proven quality. It makes no sense, logically. Not because of wages, or any other bs reason. Winning takes guts, this club don't have any!

  53. BADARSE

    Jun 12, 2014, 20:52 #52812

    I would buy Kallstrom right now Bard, if I could. I think he would be a wonderful asset and that would also tick the 'using the resources wisely' box. Think he would bounce a few if he became a permanent fixture. I saw a very composed, good reader of the game, strong in the tackle with good movement and awareness-he also played with a smile on his face. Have a feeling his personality would be powerful in the dressing room. Sadly age is against him.

  54. Westlower

    Jun 12, 2014, 20:46 #52811

    @Bard, IG commented we can buy anybody, which is probably true, but we can sensibly only compete on a one off basis. Even then any player demanding £200k would pose us problems. Needing to buy 4 or 5 players at any given time forces us to be more prudent than the big 2 ever need to be. Man City's overspend punishment is a Euro squad reduced to 21 players, which is hardly going to stop them slashing the dosh. If Abramovich fancies a player he simply buys him without having to worry about balancing the books. As long as he remains at the Bridge I can't see much changing. Maureen thrives at free spending clubs. Dortmund couldn't live with Bayern but hats off to Atletico. They capitalised in a season where Barca fell away. Maybe a reason why they got rid of Fabregas?

  55. Bard

    Jun 12, 2014, 20:21 #52810

    Westie: that last post smacks of disloyalty mate. Ivan the terrible said we can compete with anyone these days or words to that effect are you suggesting hes telling us porkies. That's not the Arsenal way. I'm with you on financial mismatch actually but I didn't think it meant we were reduced to buying players like Sanogo and beloved Kallstrom. One Ozil sized player a season would do me. The problem with the finance argument is that Dortmund and Athletico are doing rather better than us on even less money. So we're back to the debate about how you use your resources, Simeone and Klopp seems to be doing a better job than the boss these days.

  56. Where's Wally is a Gooner

    Jun 12, 2014, 20:19 #52809

    Well, there you go. Wenger needs to do something quite astonishing on the centre forward front or come September the atmosphere will make Villa, last season, seem like the vicars tea party. He has put poor old Ozil under massive pressure.I hope he can rise to it.

  57. jeff wright

    Jun 12, 2014, 19:47 #52808

    KC, I was referring to the sanctimonious claims about Fabregas that were made by some of our supporters about his supposed Arsenal loyalties, you have to laugh. I never thought myself that he would rejoin us and in fact said so on here a couple of weeks ago. Fabregas has always made decisions that favoured his own interests and returning to a side that is worse than the one he forced a move from just did not seem to be something that he would do,gooner or no gooner. He is a Barca boy anyway and a pro-footballer , English clubs are just a job to him . The list of Wenger ex's for the boo boys to jeer at grows and grows ... Who next ? It could all turn nasty for Arsene if Fabregas does prove a hit at the bridge of sighs.

  58. Seven Kings Gooner

    Jun 12, 2014, 19:33 #52807

    I think AW, rather than be snubbed by CF decided to give the impression he did not really want him, he needs now to back this up with a real quality signing - don't hold your breath guys. Personally I don't think Cesc loves Arsenal, he has been thrown aside by Barca and wants to prove a point, he can make that point far more powerfully with Chelsea than he ever could with Arsenal. Like most footballers Cesc's ego has taken a whack and he wants to show Barca they made a mistake - he has nothing to prove with our club.

  59. BADARSE

    Jun 12, 2014, 19:26 #52806

    Howdy Butch, it's the Kid here. As I was holding off the posse to the east you were gun-tottin' to the west. Well, dang my hide! Funny isn't it, like a scene from the OK coral, love it, your a good pardner to have around. Roy Rogers, Tom Mix, and Hopalong Cassidy to you, then there was Gil Favor, Rowdy Yates, Matt Dillon, Hoss, Little Joe, Adam and good old Ben, am headin' outta town, giddyup!

  60. BADARSE

    Jun 12, 2014, 19:14 #52805

    Come on DW Thomas, let me put a metaphorical arm around you and by you a virtual pint of strong beer, (yes it's warm I'm afraid Ozzie, your one is chilled and still on the bar). Look we need other players first and foremost, you know the score. Of course it can be hurtful to see an ex-love happy and with another, but if you are content enough it shouldn't be so painful. I am content, but don't let that confuse you with me being docile or somnambulant (that was a good word to slip in, wasn't it? See the ploy is to distract so that I can inch closer to the window, just in case I need to make a grab for you...see I even got a tiny bit closer whilst explaining how it works). No am ever watchful, sleep with one eye open, safety catch always off my six-gun just in case the Hole in the Head Gang comes a creeping. Caint trust them pesky varmints not to break outta the hoosegow. So DWT, let's see if we get some decent players we need, rather than one we wanted, there is a difference chum. Half a million pounds a game? Even for Fabregas it is a luxury we didn't need. That's it, in you come. We are still the Arsenal, FA Cup Winners 2014!

  61. Westlower

    Jun 12, 2014, 19:00 #52804

    Barcelona's key midfielders Iniesta & Xavi are 30 & 34 respectively, why would they be happy to release 27 year old Fabregas? Chelsea don't need to scout players at the World Cup, they can throw their endless pot of money at anybody they fancy. Didn't they have something like 27 players out on loan last season. Their midfield players cost in the region of £170m, then double that figure to include wages. For fear of continually repeating myself, we simply cannot compete financially with Chelsea & Man City. Try and come to terms with it. Should Putin's puppet leave these shores we'll be back on a level playing field with the chavs!

  62. KC

    Jun 12, 2014, 18:58 #52803

    Jeff if we don't want him what is he meant to do? We can't blame him for joining them but we can blame our club for not wanting him. Once he knew we were not interested he then has to play for some one else and in his position most of us would be signing for a club with a chance of competing on a great salary. There is no real loyalty from players or clubs it's a business but you can't knock cfc transfer dealings, Matic costa Cesc in luiz out pretty good business in my opinion.

  63. jeff wright

    Jun 12, 2014, 18:44 #52802

    Fabregas: "They (Chelsea) have a fantastic squad and great manager. I can't wait to start playing." At least these truthful comments from the Spaniard put the old tosh claims about him being a die-hard gooner to bed. Some people never learn do they >?

  64. jjetplane

    Jun 12, 2014, 18:12 #52801

    MacGuire you old son of a gun. Kinda dusty up here on Highbury Hill. Just me and Blazing Saddles. We found a note on one them old doors blowing in the Clock End wind. It says right here (not up to reading much these days with them old blogger boys kicking up all that bullsheet about that varmit Vela). Anyways (spitting a ball of amber leaf to the wind) something about '... blow it out of your Arsene Howard' Maybe they got their Howard mixed up with Stan. Be passing by soon enough McGuire you old dawg - maybe we swing around Maureen's brothel and see this new senorita? Think the memories gone. Been a good ten years now since them Highbury boys put down the bottle anf took a few a dem northern scalps. To old to have a posse and anyhow - who wants to string up some old turkey with a foreign voice? I ask you MCGuire (more spittle) ...

  65. CT Gooner

    Jun 12, 2014, 18:12 #52800

    I hate Arsene Wenger. He shows nothing but contempt for us fans. Letting Cesc go to Chelsea is as bad as letting RvP go to Man Utd. Remember why we still need a striker???

  66. Roy

    Jun 12, 2014, 18:06 #52799

    Fan - bloody - tastic, Cesc playing for those lot next season. Of course judgment has to be reserved until the end of the transfer window, but I won't be holding my breath that the necessary quality comes in. All I can do is reiterate what a couple of others have already said - whoever it may be to Liverpool to complete the full set, and looks like I'll be concentrating on my local team.Win the FA cup then kick on ? Already doesn't look like it. Win the Champs Lge ? Don't make me laugh. All the evidence so far suggests that in a years time, we won't even be in it.

  67. Don't Piss On Me & Say It's Raining!

    Jun 12, 2014, 17:58 #52797

    Just seen Cesc has gone to Chelski. Didn't think it would hurt as much as it does. I'm not naive enough to think that Cesc feels he owes us anything but I really thought he wouldn't want to do that to us, especially considering his spats with Mourinho whilst in Spain. What I do think we are owed is an explanation by Wenger as to why we didn't take up our option on a proven winner who is tried and tested in this league and at the club. I want a proper in depth reason as my first instinct is that AW has let his arrogance hurt the club again by refusing to re-sign a player who left the failed project.

  68. KC

    Jun 12, 2014, 17:57 #52796

    Bard there is a real sad lack of desire with wenger and the board. Buying after the World Cup yes he said it. If you have the will to make it happen you can. People will say other than cfc no one else has made a move but it's always us as last minute penny pinching shoppers. Even when we bought early we then sold RVP and song and never used the cash. Cesc is a massive kick in the teeth and probably comes from wengers grudge holding. Arteta and Rosicky go next summer so where's the long term thinking? Then the injuries, sure it would cost but was that not the reason for the Emirates. To many people make excuses but the same policies with the same results season after season are not why we moved the promises have proved to be false. I do hope I'm smiling again come august but some how I doubt it.

  69. KC

    Jun 12, 2014, 17:39 #52795

    Good article there is some truth in it Wenger would love the Champions league but will never win it with his transfer antics. As for players like Kallstrom if that is our target we might as well pack up. We want to buy better than we have not buy players that are bench fillers. Cesc has gone now! So wenger needs to buy the holding midfielder top striker and perhaps wide player as well as the reserve keeper and right back if it's a penny pinching summer watch us slip further behind and then your see the fans turn ugly.

  70. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jun 12, 2014, 17:36 #52794

    Sheriff jjetplane, you'd better hurry up if you want to catch the bank robbers their heading for the hills, i think it was that gunslinger from Dodge city and his gang the BADARSES real tough hombres, pete the Barbour can't make it as they stole his horse, wenger out over at the saloon is going he's just throwing a few rustlers who think arsene is the right man for the job out,the mayor was saddled up and ready to go until he found out they stole his wife then changed his mind, jo the blacksmith can't make it because he's shoeing a horse, but you can rely on the Ronlton boys and his foreman the mad irishman maguire and his cousin jeff over at the triple t ranch they're already waiting at the pass.

  71. Bard

    Jun 12, 2014, 17:36 #52793

    Unchives:,you bet he will come back to bite us. He's world class. The fact that he wasn't the main man at Barca is down to the competition with Iniesta and Xavi who have been 2 of the best in the world, it's nothing to do with his ability . He can do everything and he has a massive heart. For £30m he's a steal ( soton want £25m for Llallana). Can you imagine the furore at the Emirates if he orchestrates a Chelsea win. I don't think we'll be thinking oh well we didn't need him because we've got Ozil and the Ox. It will be toxic. Incidentally didn't I read that no ones buying until after the World Cup or was that another load of bull****. Gutted.

  72. DW Thomas

    Jun 12, 2014, 17:35 #52792

    This club is now officially 2nd tier. 2nd tier attitudes, ambitionless other than 4th, a bunch of hapless tightwads run this club!! Vela is our big target and Sanogo will be our competition for Giroud. You cant make this s..t up! Cesc in blue just might be the final nail in the coffin for me! No ledge in front of me Baddie! Just feel like a complete mug for ever hoping we'd change! There is no end in sight of this farce!

  73. BADARSE

    Jun 12, 2014, 17:30 #52791

    Afternoon Tin Man, thanks for the info on TB. people slip around the corner of your memory sometimes so quickly, then a bump and they are there in front of you and beside you again. We've got Ron off to his cricket, jjetplane's gone fishing, WENGER OUT is off supporting Cambridge United, (come back soon with a new name buddy), westlower is off horse racing soon, I'm off my head, and Fabregas is off to CFC, (CFCs are very harmful). A sea of change in our tiny microcosmic world. Saw Miles Jupp recently, an extremely good stand-up routine, Mark Watson (again), up next.

  74. Bard

    Jun 12, 2014, 17:20 #52790

    A time for grieving . We only need to sell one more of our very best to Liverpool and we have a full set, Man U, City, Chelsea et al. We'll soon be playing Arsenal old boys. Would never have believed I'd see the day when Cesc would be wearing blue. Westie: Kallstrom may well be a good player. I don't dispute that. My point as you we'll know is that when you are top of the league looking to boost your squad for the second half of the season you don't loan a guy who has a broken back and can't play for 12 weeks.

  75. WIGun

    Jun 12, 2014, 17:01 #52788

    Best and most balanced article I have seen on this site for a while

  76. Unchives

    Jun 12, 2014, 16:54 #52787

    Well Cesc has joined Chelski for a reported £30 million, what a snip. Hopefully we wont end up paying for not resigning him.

  77. WENGER OUT

    Jun 12, 2014, 16:54 #52786

    Wake me up when Wenger is gone - Fabregas to Chelsea is the last straw. Cambridge United are back in the football league after 9 years of exile, I think I'll focus on them for a while. Adios gents, it's been a pleasure.

  78. Almunia is a clown

    Jun 12, 2014, 16:34 #52785

    Wenger won't win the CL unless he spends the money needed to assemble a strong enough side to win it. That won't happen because he is too b^*&96y mean to pay the going rate for top class players! Pity his tightness doesn't apply to his handsome "socialist" salary! And his cohorts on the board charging outrageous admission prices for supporters!

  79. Arsene

    Jun 12, 2014, 16:33 #52784

    'There is no time for transfers between the end of the season and the start of the World Cup. Nobody will do anything before the World Cup starts.'

  80. Matron

    Jun 12, 2014, 16:31 #52782

    Wake up Diaby dear. There's a new fitness guru on the block.

  81. jjetplane

    Jun 12, 2014, 16:12 #52781

    CF is a CHAV! My heart beats for Wendy but Maureen dominates my thoughts! No smirking Brenda ..... as if he would have ever gone any other way. Now about Ramsey moving to Madrid .... Bale (his bestest pal) reckons no 'cottage smoke without fire'? Rebels hey - they make me laugh! ... went to mow a meadow ..... Over to you Citeh! Hello!

  82. jjetplane

    Jun 12, 2014, 15:16 #52780

    Boots and other feet BADArSE I have resigned myself to emphatic abstract for the day and have left line in water while I cook a chicken only to come back to one angry fish. There is enough room for us all in the vast ocean of Footballalia. Big news - Wendy has hooked a 17 yr old greek kid while on holiday in Holloway and said minnow should be with us in 3 years? ... I guess as Wendy leaves by the revolving door. Call it a legacy - a nod to cradles of civilisation. I call it a doner kebab left outside H & I station. I love this heat - don't you. There it is Wendy, Maureen and Brenda - an old manager's tale. Remember me olde mucka - cold flannel, feet in water and count just like 'Buddha' used to in Finsbury Park (by the cinder pitches). Right - time to let the chicken rest ......

  83. CumbrianGooner

    Jun 12, 2014, 15:03 #52779

    Is this piece a joke?? Surely even someone as psychopathic as Le Proff knows he can't win the champions league ???????

  84. Westlower

    Jun 12, 2014, 14:26 #52778

    @Bard, I will be very happy should Kallstrom sign a permanent deal with AFC. As with all class players he buys himself time on the ball & is not afraid to put his foot in. A very good player with 108 International caps. Very intelligent footballer.

  85. Westlower

    Jun 12, 2014, 13:50 #52777

    @Ron, If you google 'Australian cricket team in England 1961' it'll give you a summary of the test series back then.

  86. BADARSE

    Jun 12, 2014, 13:46 #52776

    Er, jjetplane, have I missed something? It is only you and your posse who are constantly attacking and vilifying Arsene Wenger. Those who feel much said is unfair, misrepresented or just plain wrong try to set the record straight, or balance and explain if you wish. I have refused to engage often when it is just a AW lynch mob gathering. One says something critical, another jumps in saying they agree and have a kick, a third aligns, then the first, buoyed by support gets the bit between his teeth and pushes the envelope-so it continues. I choose as and when to respond, usually just pointing out inaccuracies or inconsistencies. Sometimes just suggesting that the point is unproven or merely speculation. And if you want to lay an accusation of being a Tiny Tott at my door then say it outright, don't beat about the bush. But I do question your sense of logic that it takes a Tiny Tott to recognise one. Really? How daft is that? Don't answer, it was a rhetorical question, and I know how daft it was.

  87. Danny

    Jun 12, 2014, 13:27 #52775

    i really do not care. Just wanted him Out. Unfortunately we AKB who have their heads buried under the sand and the owners who love him. What is Wenger's record in Europe , 2 lost finals and a semi final in 16-17yrs, A very poor record so a so called top coach. This will continue with no more trophies. We got lucky with the cup WIN and will shout some crowd up for now but in the long run, keeping Wenger was a very bad decision. i feel this summer it will be a make and break for him. if does not buy high quality, he be gone before his contract finishes. Fans will be on his case on that Judging on what has happened in the transfer market and the noises coming about potential targets, i guess it will the same. frustrating. Chelsea are on the verge of signing Fabregas and Costa and we are linked with useless Vela Only at Arsenal- WENGER OUT!!!

  88. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jun 12, 2014, 13:26 #52774

    jjetplane, good one, Brenda it is from now on and very appropriate too.

  89. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jun 12, 2014, 13:09 #52773

    WENGER OUT, good comment yourself, that would have been the perfect scenario and he surely would have earned the respect of all, even more respect from those that still do, respect back from those that are losing it, and those that have lost it.

  90. Matthew Bazell

    Jun 12, 2014, 12:53 #52772

    I doubt very much he can do it. If he could not do it with the great team he once had, it's unlikely he could win the CL with what he has now. CL is where we get exposed. The problem is that with our board, we'll never win the CL despite who is our manager.

  91. Bard

    Jun 12, 2014, 12:40 #52771

    Good post Kenny. I presume, Westie that taking Kallstrom on loan although he had a broken back was also bad luck. Your posts confuse past success with current failure. He was a groundbreaking manger 15 years ago but things have moved on. He looks past his sell by date and should have retired gracefully. I derive no pleasure from watching him fail I can assure you. It reminds me of watching Ali in his later years as a boxer, you just wanted him to retire with grace not be carried out after being hammered by guys who weren't fit to lace his gloves when he was in his pomp. Top class sport is brutal. Your total belief that Wenger can keep turning water into wine is on the one hand is touching but on the other its smacks of cruelty. He can't do it anymore and I have posted before I don't see a good ending to this story. It's a chronic weakness at the heart of the club that someone isn't able to protect him from himself.

  92. Ron

    Jun 12, 2014, 12:40 #52770

    Hi Westie - I ve met a few of the Aussies mate down the years. Steve Waugh a couple of years back, (he signed my book - his autobiography) Allan Border a few years back. Dizzie Gillespie last season. Rod Marsh years ago. Great guys to meet. I love Aussie cricket i have to say. My head teacher at Primary School got me into cricket and taught me to bowl. Always thankful to him for it. My Dad used to wax lyrical over the team that you mention. Earliest side i recall and i saw them at Trent Bridge as a kid was Lawry, The Chappells, Walters, Johnny Gleeson and Co. Great side. Have a great Summer Westie wont you and take good care.Good luck on your gee gees too mate.

  93. jjetplane

    Jun 12, 2014, 12:40 #52769

    Can we move on from Wenger and just talk Arsenal. he really is not worth the words though his defenders are always good for a prolonged smirk. We await their sainthoods proper and not the ones they award themselves. Better to talk about other clubs 'cause that is where the action is. From now it's the Brenda and Maureen show and on the question of Tiny Totts - it takes one to think someone else is. Let's just say there are a couple of Finsbury Joes on here only they don't bleedin' know it yet! Cucumbers and home made lemonade - Blighty hey. Preferred rounders meself and I was good at that. Someone was talking Basketball? i spent a complete season follow the Kansas Jayhawks where just for me they won the big one. I tell yer sportsfanz - Allen Fieldhouse (in da phog) was like no other place. Emirates - sorry but when it comes to Holloway Road the old ABC and The Hercules in livelier times is all I can muster. The rest is as 'plastic as a latter day muffin' .... matron.

  94. Westlower

    Jun 12, 2014, 12:31 #52768

    @Ron, The first top class cricket side I ever saw was the Australians in 1961, Richie Benaud, Neil Harvey, Wally Grout, etc. They were only playing Cambs Univ, but the first 5 batsman all scored centuries before giving up their wicket to let the next man in. Colin Cowdrey & Derek Underwood were my all time favourites. But never mind the cricket Royal Ascot starts on Tuesday. Strawberries & cream anyone?

  95. BADARSE

    Jun 12, 2014, 12:30 #52767

    We incorrectly used to call him 'The Muffin Man', (as in the song 'who lives down Drury Lane...'), I remember hearing the old school bell being rung on a Sunday morning and we'd excitedly holler, 'The Muffin Man!' and scoot to the window. He wore a long white apron coat, (like the old peanut seller who used to wander around the North Bank, had a flat cap, and carried a huge handled basket. The crumpets were piled neatly inside with clean tea-towels covering the fayre. Mum would open the window and call out to him, and he would trudge the five floors up to us, all 88 steps, (sorry about the number thing but westlower understands), and we would buy a dozen. He would bid us good morning and wander off, usually balancing the basket on his head. Oh boy, can I have another mum? Enjoy your cricket chum.

  96. Ron

    Jun 12, 2014, 12:15 #52766

    BADARSE - Used to love crumpets. They dont taste the same now fella. Like eating plastic!! On a toasting fork, done on the open fire is the way for them. I wont watch that much of the macdonalds/wimpey/adidas and whomsoevers cleaning it out world cup mate. Had enough of footie by June. Better things to do. Anyway its the cricket season. A sport that has its problems granted, but as yet at least hasn't bared its sorry greedy arse to the highest bidder and its Clubs supporters totally down the river (except for the Worcs fans of course who are used to floating down the River Severn each April!!). Day at the Cricket for the price with a few eats, a few bottles of red and a few buddies (male and female) in the nice weather. Football cant compete in the value for cash stakes and no over paid, self serving low life's in sight on the wicket! Love it. Still play too. PS Have you ever likened this board to a giant table tennis table, the size of Wales and all of us on it pinging balls galore, yet no points are ever scored? Ha. Mind you, your top spin on Wengers/the arse's euro record and old EC issue needs some technique coaching!! Who taught you? Ivan G? ha. Just thought id mention it.Have a good day and a good Summer to you and all the guys on here. Rare visits only now.

  97. BADARSE

    Jun 12, 2014, 11:52 #52765

    Sorry for the perceived insult LOL. You of course did note my question mark? It was because I wasn't sure. You see nowadays things are very different and the medium of typing posts means anyone can say almost anything, so nothing amiss with my imagination. This introduces an element of doubt-I've actually been told by my wife that I have a very good arse-and I still struggle with the criticisms directed at my club, my team, my manager and my players when I consider most criticisms loosely based on supposition.

  98. LOL

    Jun 12, 2014, 11:42 #52764

    Badarse zzzz yes course I must be a tiny Tott because I think Wenger is a mediocre manager who has won 1 FA Cup in 9 years (the equivalent managerial record of Harry Redknapp FFS!). Yes how very imaginative of you to say that. It's almost as if I invented those thrashings of 6-0, 6-3, 5-1, 3-0 at Everton and 1-0 to David Moyes ALL in the same season! Jog on please...

  99. BADARSE

    Jun 12, 2014, 11:32 #52763

    Well said 24601, and LOL methinks you be a Tiny Tott?

  100. LOL

    Jun 12, 2014, 11:06 #52762

    Arsene Wenger will never, ever win the Champions League. Forget it. He might win the PL one day because you can win that by scraping wins against all the rubbish teams. But you cannot do that in the CL. You can also win the PL without having a clue about tactics - you cannot be a tactical retard and win the CL though. To win the CL, you will have to beat one of Real, Barca, Bayern or Chelsea over 2 legs. Arsene Wenger has in 17 years, never ever beaten Barca or Bayern over 2 legs. He did manage the one time to beat Real over 2 legs, but then met Barca in a final and lost. Please note, this is a manager that has in recent seasons lost 4-1 and 5-1 at Anfield, lost 6-0 at Stamford Bridge, lost 8-2 at Man United, lost 5-1 at Spurs, lost 6-3 at Citeh and lost 4-1 at Barca. A manager that has faced Jose Mourinho over 11 times and has never ONCE beaten him. Even Tony Pulis has a better record than that! Wenger will never ever win the CL because quite simply, he isn't a good enough manager, he has zero tactical insight, he does not have good enough players and he cannot inspire players to run through walls for him (unless it gets them into 4th place of course!)

  101. jeff wright

    Jun 12, 2014, 11:04 #52761

    Actually Westie playing with 10 men ( 9 actually if you exclude useless Almunia) did us a favour v Barca because Wenger was forced to ditch his gung-ho tactics and settle for defending properly.Barca of course would have been leading 1-0 if the ref had not made a cock-up by disallowing their valid goal and wrongly sending of mad Jens.Now Westie one nil down and chasing the game against Messi and co would have given us all the chance of a kamikaze pilot surviving an attack on a aircraft carrier. Apart from the waiter letting in two savable goals it must be pointed out also that Henry had a mare missing two good chances that he would have buried in a Prem game . Wenger's silly substitutions late on when we needed another goal did not help either,he han in form Reyes on the bench but chose to leave him there,apparently there was a clause in his contract that we had to pay 2m or something if he played in a CL final and he was leaving us after the final. Money never sleeps eh! Especially at Arsene FC .

  102. Westlower

    Jun 12, 2014, 10:06 #52760

    How convenient that some among us have overlooked the small issue of playing with 10 men against Barca (CL Final), Bayern Munich (K.O) & Chelsea (PL). Were we tactically naive when winning in Munich & Dortmund? Thrashed at Anfield but recovered with 7 days to knock Liverpool out of the FA Cup. Of course some Gooners think that winning the FA Cup was handed to us on a plate, Liverpool, TH & Everton may disagree. Wenger is responsible for our players injuries? How about JW & Ox on International duty, is that down to AW? Giroud was over played? He played in practically every game but I don't recall him being injured? Did Theo & Diaby snap their knee ligaments to spite Wenger? Was Wenger responsible for Eduardo & Ramsey having their legs smashed? For those of you who believe AW is clueless on all things football, how did he manage to coach so many players through to being class acts, starting with World Footballer of the year George Weah?

  103. Mike

    Jun 12, 2014, 9:58 #52759

    Ron - I did not mention Nottingham forest because as far as I am concerned they have a better European record than most English Clubs -As far as I can recall they won back to back competitions which is pretty good in my book - As for Barca, they were certainly not the power house they are now. The stats you are eluding to took place over a period of 30 years from their first final - by comparison they have won it three times in the last eight years and are joint favourites entering the competion

  104. Gerry

    Jun 12, 2014, 9:30 #52758

    Wenger is the Nigel Farage of Football.Europe and him just dont go together.Wenger should be the leader of UKIP he would get Britain out of Europe without the need of a referendum.Its amazing how one FA cup in nine years has got some of our fans thinking Wenger is a good manager ha ha.He is tactically bankrupt as is proved by our results against the big teams.Just look at the Liverpool and Chelsea away games.We get slaughtered in the first half at Anfield 4-0 down at half time a month later he goes to Stamford Bridge and plays the same f**king way 4-0 down at half time!!!.As Cesc said Wenger never talks about the opposition.To win the CL you need a manager who does tactics and looks at the opposition and has a plan to beat them,Wenger is too stubborn to do that.

  105. WENGER OUT

    Jun 12, 2014, 8:43 #52756

    Matthew - A good comment. I feared that when Wenger signed on for another 3 years, it was always likely to end in ignominy. I lost what respect I had left for the man when he signed on for another 3 years - 1 year with the caveat that he would help smooth a managerial transition and I would have been brimming with respect. Unfortunately he lacks the self awareness to see that he has split the fan base and is likely to be ousted from his position - by the fans not the board - when results go south.

  106. BADARSE

    Jun 12, 2014, 8:09 #52754

    Good morning my little buttered crumpets, scrumptious but squishy and full of cholesterol. Ron, it is Ron isn't it? With news that a 'chatbot' came close to passing the Turing Test it is questionable. Think what I said was quite clear, and most things are open to interpretation. I listed our Euro achievements and you bounced them out of play and used the power of imagined majority rule to vindicate that viewpoint. Majority does not make for absolute acceptance in any discussion Ron, you know that. I know the euphoria and excitement surrounding the European Cup of old, I was at Wembley in 1968 and enjoyed the whole event. Fewer matches, a possible couple of lesser countries' champions as opposition and then it got serious. Makes sense to me buddy. Constantly qualifying for the current CL is a significant achievement. You or anyone else refusing to accept that is fine, but it doesn't trump my case. Now get you beer ready, unwind and enjoy the football.

  107. Mathew

    Jun 12, 2014, 7:00 #52753

    So the Wenger Out Campaign is back huh ! Couldnt disagree with you Thomas, a nice attempt to portray Wenger's poor tactical acumen. You actually dont need to read these posts to understand Wenger's downfall, just watch those future stars signing to the top teams. When Wenger's scouts are busy watching them, others snap them, and he is waiting for World Cup to end to make the deal. We all have seen Bayern, partly BVB, Napoli and few premiership teams outplaying us throughout the last year and he still doesnt have any remorse in balancing the team. With all due respect to his past years, i really thought he will step down this year. But our Board or owners wont leave him, unless they have earned enough. Just read a thread about Siqueira joining Atletico, he is excited to join them as the club wants to challenge and win against the super powers like Madrid and Barca. Can Wenger attract someone like Rakitic or Halilovic or Benzema or Di Maria etc to Arsenal. I feel you really dont need to boast about your past trophies and successes to attract players but you need to show the urge to win them, the challenge or the dream which sadly Wenger doesnt have.

  108. Leggsy

    Jun 12, 2014, 5:25 #52752

    We won the Cup despite Wenger not because of him Goalkeeper selection and total lack of tactics,inability to defend set pieces and imbalance down the left (Chelsea Everton revisited). We will never win the league or the Champions League until he either changes his ways or Leaves. He shows no sign of changing as he rummages in the bargain basement for has-beens and French wannbees so Im afraid it's another 3 years of bright starts showing some promise before the inevitable collapse in Feb/March .

  109. Ozzie

    Jun 12, 2014, 5:07 #52751

    To hell with Europe!! The main event has always been to win the domestic competition and while Wenger is left picking through the crumbs after the billionaires have finished splashing the cash dreaming CL is just that - a dream. Wake up and bolster the squad with some hard noses and ditch the likes of Diaby, Rosicky and Arteta, even if it means a loss. There is plenty of English talent out there. I settled for an FA Cup and will now settle for the Premiership which is achievable - given the signings everyone keeps writing about

  110. DW Thomas

    Jun 12, 2014, 3:09 #52750

    Agree maguiresbridge. Wenger's colossal ego wants dearly to win the CL on his terms, on the cheap, with his coal turned to diamonds squad. Talent and hard work combined with mental toughness make great players, not one coach! I think he often helps teach a philosophy of failure with his lack of tactics, lack,of respect of other teams strengths, and only my way is th best attitude. The 2006 loss grates on him and he badly needs it for his career to be judged complete. Hey, I get it, who like him wouldn't want that achievement? But, who could seriously think he could win it with Almunia, Bendtner, Sanogo, Silvestre, Denilson, et. al? He never quite get it right does he? Many other good coaches have figured him out along their way to the trophy. One thing I can say in his defense. Barca did have a top team in 2006 with a young Messi. Yet, he can't even lately find a way to maintain a league lead! You'd think he'd be doing all he could, spending whatever money he had, to build the best team possible! But, non. Passing on Fabregas says it all really to me. He is content it seems in the fallacy of the clubs accolades with him on 4th and the CL spots. It's all a Catch-22. We need it to recruit the best, but then never buy them! The never ending b..ls..t that comes out all season from transfers to excuses for flopping is now just a bad joke. How nice it would be to see things done to get this club to a spot where we are true competitors and not wannabes!

  111. Aaron

    Jun 12, 2014, 1:15 #52749

    Steve Bruce got the better of Wenger in tactics, Steve f'ing Bruce. Champions League winners need to grind out tough results, something we cannot do. We are not defensively strong enough and don't gameplan against our opposition. Awfully naive against Dortmund at home where a draw would have seen us win the group and get an easier tie. Hopeless against Bayern in the knockout stages and even worse in the San Siro against a crumbling Milan side. We are crying out for a defensive midfielder to act as a shield, Arteta is not good enough and doesn't have the legs

  112. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jun 12, 2014, 0:48 #52748

    Ron, hear what your saying but i personally think OGL would love to win it on a shoe string, just as he's been trying to do with the prem, that's what it's all about with him and has been for a long time, proving the football world wrong, and his philosophy was right all along, that would be some boost to his ego but as we know that's not going to happen because he hasn't got what it takes.

  113. Wenger out

    Jun 12, 2014, 0:06 #52747

    Finish 4th in the league , finish 2nd in the group stage of the CL then get drawn against a European super power in the first round of the knockout stage and get knocked out as usual .Its so bloody predictable.As soon as that draw for the knockout stage is made in December we know we will get knocked out even though we have to wait 3 months for our fate.Groundhog day again

  114. Steve Williams

    Jun 11, 2014, 23:43 #52746

    The specialist in failure may have fluked a single FA Cup in the last nine years, but will never win the Champions league. he is well past his sell by date, indeed is rapidly becoming a laughing stock , like the club He is tactically inept, top risk averse with money, has no idea how to prevent injuries or motivate his team. The only place wenger will take Arsenal in his remaining years with the club is somewhere outside the top 4

  115. Ron

    Jun 11, 2014, 22:39 #52745

    Badarse - i would argue that your task of interpretation is a personal one only for you and i doubt there would be anybody in professional football that would deem the EC 'lightweight'compared to the other tournies of the day. The UEFA Cup was a tournie conceived to do what it did i.e to spread the euro football family to lesser teams of more unfortunate heritage and opportunity.Its pleasing to see that you've revised your view from 'lightweight' to 'the best'. Thats some step up. The EC was the Cup of Champions, thats why it was the best ie the best teams of their countries, hence its fantastic gravitas that led to some of the greatest teams the World had seen,never mind Europe, fight the most momentous finals and then onwards to the World Club Championship v the elite SA teams. How many UEFA Cup Finals are imprinted on your memory? How many EC Finals are there? The UEFA Cup was a little sideshow by comparison, played out more often than not by plucky mediocre Clubs and as such there's nothing to 'interpret'. It was recognised as such by professionals of the time as exactly that too. You needn't take my view on it of course. The comparitive choice that you posit of a lone Cup win v years of consecutive but failed and often quite embarrassing attempts is a choice you can struggle with before you decide your preference if you want to. One successful campaign, say in 2006 as you mention it and none or few other ventures into the modern CL would be the choice i (and i would suggest), most Gunners fans would take if offered it as a picture of our CL history vis the dreadful one that we have, especially as a Club with Arsenals resources can hardly fail to qualify for it from that PL, though Mr Wenger often makes his best efforts to fail doesn't he! . Youre using the years of Wengers failed campaigns to dress up a figurative ugly street urchin and then to pass it off as a sophisticated sexy lady. It doesn't wash and is a smokescreen. I suggest that you know it is too, but cant bring yourself to accept it.Mr Wengers Euro record is appalling and the stats are there for you to see. Each years efforts reiterate the futility of the campaigns. His one near miss plus say, a couple of UEFA/Europa Cup wins amongst many years of non qualification for the CL would reflect better in the sunlight of the day than what's on the Clubs record as it stands or more to the point, on Wengers CV. Several semis might arguably even have glossed it up for you and at least offered some paltry credence to your argument, but you've not even that as sustenance have you.

  116. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jun 11, 2014, 22:19 #52744

    PPP, couldn't agree more, there will never be another chance like it especially now. I was driving out of Belfast that night listening to it on the radio, and then watched the highlights when i got home, sick or what i honestly believe if we'd beaten the chavs that night we'd have went on to win it, and i've never felt like that since and don't expect to again.

  117. A Cornish Gooner

    Jun 11, 2014, 22:04 #52743

    Thank you BADARSE. That was a lot better than Unwinese. For your information, it's just like that down here!

  118. jeff wright

    Jun 11, 2014, 22:04 #52742

    Another way of looking at Wenger's Euro record is that he has had 19 years in which to win a cup against the shorter tenures of Mee and Graham - who both won a tournament in their stints at AFC - and a few other trophies as well. Wenger's not pulled up any trees in qualifying for the CL or a qualifier tie as again this time ,considering the opposition . Once you get past his main rivals there was a big gap in wages and quality . For his first 8 years he only faced United,later Chelsea joined the club and then City. Liverpool have been in and out of the top 4 cartel and it remains to be seen if they can repeat last seasons heroics . I suspect retaining Suarez could play a part in that. United will be back so the coming season if Liverpool do manage to compete for a top 4 place could be Wenger's moment of truth after having had the cards stacked in his favour regarding a minor top 4 position for donkeys years . He would have done his maths last January and worked out , taking account of United's decline and Everton being unlikely to be able to sustain their 4th place challenge, that we were odds on to get 4th spot. He knew we had no hope of winning the Prem and saw no reason to buy anyone to try and do so. Instead he blathered on about Bendtner still having a future with us and how Sanago would become the next Anelka . That's your Arsene a bullsh*it artist ,the master of illusion.

  119. BADARSE

    Jun 11, 2014, 22:00 #52741

    And where be my chumly maguiresbridge? That rascalwag BADARSE locked me by the by in the cupbond underway the stair rods all nightime in the day. Oh good likely fellowships, and the Worldly wise is upon us allweathers, downside in Branseal. Not the Juicy Rimlet anymoreover but the womanly arms upstretchy holding the globular safety first in her handson. It showers some toptree teams and Englestorm taking partly too, or three. There is Wine Rowntree, but no more Davey Beckandcall. My moneybags is always on the Germaloids as they know the shorty cuts to bringy back the cuppa. Argonauts are all the strongly, but no handle of the great griff this time, and so allsorts the hostess Branseal. Good fallolloping ladies luck gentlemeanies. So and so it's the threepots but saddeningly not the lads of Englestorm. All togather now then, now then, 'Coming homely, coming homely, fluteballs coming homely'.

  120. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jun 11, 2014, 21:46 #52740

    Mark T, spot on, we can't even win our own, let alone the Champions League, so there's not much chance of winning the Euro league, set up for us? yes to come fourth i wonder will there be a trophy for that?

  121. BADARSE

    Jun 11, 2014, 21:27 #52739

    Ron of course the European Cup was a good competition to win-the best! My point is that you could get drawn against the Champions of Iceland in the first round, and perhaps meet the Champs of Rumania in the second. Get past those two and you were in the Q/F. A kind draw and a good performance may even see you into the S/F. Then it got serious, as I said. It's also true the UEFA Cup had the likes of Wolves or perhaps Everton alongside you, get drawn against one then the other and you would know you'd been in a two-legged dogfight. The other aspect of measuring success is a personal one. A lone cup win with umpteen barren years versus almost two decades of uninterrupted competition. All open to interpretation.

  122. BADARSE

    Jun 11, 2014, 21:07 #52738

    Oh, Tinman, is it true you have no heart? Liked it, very much.

  123. Ron

    Jun 11, 2014, 21:07 #52737

    BADARSE - The UEFA Cup was full of teams who hadn't won their respective titles ever or if they had, very few times. Teams down as low as 10th in the old Div 1 here would often challenge for it, hence Wolves in 1972 for instance playing out a semi with Sours. I think trying to argue that 'the EC was lightweight compared to the UEFA Cup' would leave you gasping for air if placed in a room with Messrs Charlton, Law, Stiles, Souness,or even our own Mr McLintock. The argument has merit when compared to the old ECWC which would often see Clubs like West Ham, West Brom and Saints and Co in it all of whom were in the main perennial relegation battlers. To suggest that the EC of old was easier to win than todays ECL is fanciful but arguable at least. A tourny is the product of its time so its just as hard to win with all the variables and different nuances of the game factored in. An Hillman Imp was maybe the Ford Fiesta of its day, but both excellent motors for their time. You can tery and elevate Wengers poor showing in so many attempts as high as you like but the fact is, he got close once and the other 16 times are all eminently forgettable.The sheer ratio of finals to attempts makes it a poor record which ever way you want to spin it around and around.

  124. BADARSE

    Jun 11, 2014, 20:32 #52736

    Just endorsing your view 24601, it was always regarded as the easier competition in those days, in fact both the European Cup and the Cup Winners Cup, were lightweight compared to the UEFA Cup. The UEFA Cup had a similar mode to the modern CL in as much as a few clubs from each strong nation entered, so you could play two good German clubs in successive rounds if you drew the wrong straws. It also had an extra round-two extra games, plus a two-legged final rather than just one like the other two competitions, meaning three extra games had to be negotiated to win it, the European Cup really got serious though come the S/Fs.

  125. jjetplane

    Jun 11, 2014, 20:28 #52735

    CORNISH GOoNER that was total boss that post. Old Frenchie never wanted that bloody thing in the first place. The doubles were a big enough pain. FA Cup fine. Keep the fishing lads happy. Them what's still fishing. The rest can jump off the Lizard. That's what the Yankie is saying.

  126. BADARSE

    Jun 11, 2014, 20:10 #52734

    I understand what you are saying Mike. The 'one offs', like Anderlecht in 1970 (I went to Belgium and also saw the 2nd leg at Highbury), the 1994 victory in Copenhagen, drove there to see that, and was also there in The Parc Des Princes to see us lose it in 1995. They were all great experiences, cup finals, and 'one offs'. The Wenger years are different; they have given us sustained European involvement for nearly two decades and but for twists of fate we may have won both final appearances. Of course had we just inched over the line in 2006, and it was a close run thing, then all the clamour on these pages would be just scotch mist. Fine lines and all that, but KO competitions can serve that up to you.

  127. cornish gooner

    Jun 11, 2014, 20:10 #52733

    Well, there we were in the snug of old Jamaica Inn, me, The Rev, Clym, Diggory and Old Blind Pew talking about that there World Cup and talk moved on to news from up in England and that Arsenal Club - we all agreed that we quite liked that team that they had in 2004, had a bit of piratical swagger about 'em. Diggory said there was talk in Truro that the old Frenchie, Wenger, had been at the City ground last week, asking about their 16 year old striker what smashed in plenty of goals last season but then had one of them Tweets and rushed off to meet the Agent for the Newquay player what's made a fine recovery from a double knee op and was now expected to return to light training in October. "He certainly is a bit of a tightwad that old man Wenger" said Clym. "What I don't get", said the Rev, "everyone says that the Arse got no money - right? Then I read in my copy of the FT that they are about the 5th or 6th richest club on this here Planet and that the Yank is worth billions and the Uzbecy feller is worth even more than him. And then they say that we can't compete with that Chelski, that oil lot in Manchester and then the other,Yank, club in Manchester. Don't make no sense do it? I reckon they take us for fools". "Funny old world in that London" said Clym. "Maybe it's to do with that financial Prudence stuff what that Gordon Brown used to talk years ago" said I. Meanwhile, Old Blind Pew had been quietly puffing away at his clay pipe and sipping his Peroni. "Tell you what", he said, "that old Frenchie will surprise you lot one day and bring back that Euro Cup thing". "What?" we all said - shocked like. "When? Next season or the one after?" Blind Pew smiled that Old Blind Pew smile " Dreckly" he said.

  128. Westlower

    Jun 11, 2014, 19:57 #52732

    Just to show how much easier it was to win the European Cup before it became the Champions League is best illustrated by Nottingham Forest's back to back victories. 1978/79, 1st round, beat Oster; 2nd Rnd, beat Arges Pitest; 3rd Rnd, beat Dynamo Berlin; SF beat Ajax; Final beat Hamburg. 1979/80, 1st Rnd beat Liverpool; 2nd Rnd beat AEK Athens, 3rd Rnd beat Grasshopper; Semi beat Koln; Final beat Malmo. I was at Anfield in 2005 for the quarter final between Liverpool & Juventus. Neither team impressed and I left my scouser hosts with the parting message that neither of these teams are good enough to win the competition. Liverpool then went on to beat Milan in the final after being 0-3 at half time. Football continues to make fools of us at times!

  129. Bard

    Jun 11, 2014, 19:35 #52731

    I find your thesis a bit hard to get my head around Thomas. We are further away from ever being able to win a CL than we were 10 years ago. There is absolutely no chance with our current team. My view of why he is staying is simpler, he can't let go and for £8m a year you would be mad not to. In footballing terms it's a cushy number. No expectations except to balance the books and maintain the ability to spin us a promise of a brighter future. I don't think the CL is anywhere in the equation. That dream went down the pan a long time ago.

  130. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jun 11, 2014, 19:32 #52730

    Of course it is Thomas, yet another shot at his Holy Grail, it's certainly not to win FA cups unless he has no other option and/or they fall into his lap, and what other top club would put up with his failure to do so year after year and then give him another three years to do the same? but it will make no difference whatsoever just like all the other years he's been in it try is all he's going to do and i use the word try very lightly indeed. Because it's never going to happen with players who are not good enough and are not capable of winning it,and that's before we even get around to wengers attributes especially in Europe and we know all about them, as you say you can't teach an old dog new tricks so of course he'll come up short again, but to be fair will it really come as a surprise? because do any of us really expect any different? does any Arsenal fan go into it expecting to win it and be disappointed when we don't, but as usual he'll do just enough to scrape through to the big bucks and that will keep his fans and the money men happy. Good Article.

  131. Ron

    Jun 11, 2014, 19:11 #52729

    Mike - im compelled to make the point as well that it always amuses me when i hear so many of our fan say 'even such and such' have won euro trophies. In this instance youve chosen Villa and Celtic, how come 'even Notts Forest' never got a mention? Theres so much snobbery amongst our fans and its got progressively worse in the last 15 years since this French man purportedly turned water into wine, fed the 5000 and parted the footballing red sea. Your post is yet another example. I bet youre on of them who disparagingly chants 'you live in a shi----e' to every set of home fans you encounter aren't you? I had the privilege of seeing that Villa team take on and beat Europe in 80/81 courtesy of work colleagues, saw their games and many of their league games too. The European Cup called for Clubs to be 'Champions' then, not also ran bums and losers. The Villa team of Shaw Withe Mortimer Rimmer, Gibson Morley and Co and Co were a great side and if it were possible would roll over the feeble modern day Wengers Arsenal as if they werent there in my view. Fight, skill, guts,power, fitness and fitness all there. Moreover the Celtic team of 67 would do the same given todays training and fitness regimes. Two great sides as were Clough's Forest. Football didnt start in 1992 starnge as you might find that to learn and winning the European Cup was the same challenge then as winning the CL is now and what's more its rules werent fixed to allow UEFAs pet Clubs through with groups that give them all a second chance when they f--k up. As a afinal point, id say to you its only in this europena footballing backwater where the Clubs dont rate the Europa league. Be honest too, its the only standard tourny where any of our teams would have had a realistic chance of euro glory for so many years. Wengers team now only befits a Europa Cup tourny in all honesty.

  132. Ron

    Jun 11, 2014, 18:50 #52728

    Mike had been in 4 finals and won it once years before 'the last 8' years. I wished Arsenal were such a 'non entity' to be perfectly honest. You should check your facts before shooting from the hip. Take a look at their euro honours in all the other tournaments. If they're a non entity heaven only knows how long its gonna take for Arsenal to become a comparable non entity. Roll on the day when non entities rule supreme. Arsenals record in 17 attempts is the stuff of non entities fella.

  133. Tom O'B

    Jun 11, 2014, 18:43 #52727

    Alas AW is now a modern day Ahab, from Moby Dick. Thinks that one day he just MUST defeat/tame the beast but he just won't. Doesn't do defence or tactics. As much of course as we wouldn't say know but personally I just want ARSENAL to win it, and then win it again. 'Ah, welcome Mr Ancelotti...'

  134. Yanto

    Jun 11, 2014, 18:15 #52726

    It was time for him to leave five seasons ago, but he insists on punishing us time and time again. Having won the FA Cup this season, it was a ideal opportunity for him to step away gracefully with everyone's thanks and blessings, but yet again the dinosaur signs another deal and already is behind all our competitors in the transfer market. Instead of swanning off to Brazil he should be signing the World Class Striker, Centre Back, Right Full Back, Goa Keeper and Defensive (Holding) Mid-Fielder we are so damn Desperate for. Instead he will buy on the cheap from Lidl's instead of Waitrose, we will suffer the usual plethora of injuries, aided and encumbered by the inept medical team, which will see our best players be replaced (during injuries) by inferior former French League Two players...all because he is too tight to spend, no longer knows the transfer market or how or when to buy (Come Back David Dein !!!) and doesn't have a clue when it comes to Tactics. We will flatter to deceive yet again this coming season, and end up fighting the improved and better managed Everton for the Virtual Trophy of 4th in the prem. The sooner he is gone the better - mind you there's little chance of that happening as long as the syrup wearer and gazidis (Satan's Spawn) have their way and Wenger continues to make oodles of profit - And No Trophies. For the love of God and All Gooners !WENGER OUT! Please.

  135. jeff wright

    Jun 11, 2014, 18:09 #52725

    Mike, Wenger's boring treadmill mouse going around pointlessly on wheel antics might be your best memories of Euro football but, if you don't mind, I prefer Bertie's Cup win in 70 on that memorable Monday evening and GG's Cup win in 94 , to Wenger's long ( yawn )and getting ever longer stint of Euro desolation.The good news is that we only have another 3 years of it.

  136. Amos

    Jun 11, 2014, 17:48 #52724

    Before anyone should attempt to interpret Wenger's words you'd first have to find precisely what he said and the context in which he said them. It's difficult to understand how he would see whether he won the CL or not as a legacy for those that came after him. The previous manager's triumphs are usually seen as a burden for those that follow. Any legacy talk from Wenger has usually referred to the assets he would pass on - a financially strong and stable club with positive revenue generating assets and on current value, as assessed by CIES, a squad with a transfer asset value just £23m less than City as the PL club with the greatest transfer asset value.

  137. Mike

    Jun 11, 2014, 17:46 #52723

    One things for sure - it is a lot more difficult to win the Champions League these days than it was in the past. Barcelona have only featured in it for the last 8 years or so. Before that they were a non entity - Arsenal have never had a European Pedigree which in turn means that they have never had a good manager if you go by some peoples thinking here. Even Celtic and Aston Villa have managed to lift the trophy. Even the cup winners cup developed into the Europa League which is really a non event. Depsite that though Arsenal's best years in Europe have actually been under Arsene Wenger

  138. The Basher

    Jun 11, 2014, 17:39 #52722

    Arsene Henman-Wenger was born 164 years ago. I hope that clears up any confusion some of you may have. His son - Albert Arteta (aged 64) is both the source of much confusion and other unspoken histories. May we now proceed to the top of Mount Europa and would the sherpas be careful with Diaby ....

  139. jeff wright

    Jun 11, 2014, 16:17 #52720

    Hi Ron, I suppose it's how you interpret Wenger's words that he wanted to win the Euro Cup to leave for a legacy to other managers . I saw it as being egotistical myself because it's not his concern what future managers do and obviously he really wants to win the thing for himself . I still think that doing so is his numero one wish but that ensuring that he always gets into the group stages for the following season - and the big bucks that goes with that - is always his number one objective . Paradoxically in Stan,Ivan and Wenger world that is more important than stretching resources to actually try winning the cup. All rather boring (yawn) really.

  140. Wibblefish

    Jun 11, 2014, 16:08 #52719

    Champions league! What on earth has happened over the last 3 to 4 seasons to suggest we have a realistic chance of winning the Champions League? Has there been any improvement in our European performances over recent years? I don't think so. The priority has to be the ability to seriously challenge for the Premier league. Not being on top for 120 days to collapse every Feb / March. As for the Champions league......well that is just a deluded fantasy. Maybe if we could start competing with the other top 4 teams and stop getting screwed over 6 bloody nil etc, then maybe Wenger could start to dream of winning in Europe. For now bollocks to The Champions League, just start concentrating on beating your title rivals. Maybe just maybe if we could start to win some of these games we wouldn't finish in 4th ****ing place every year. In fact I would go as far as to say the Champions League is Arsenal's biggest problem. It provides the idiots with comfort at the end of each season for finishing fourth! Glad I've got that off my chest, rant over.

  141. Ron

    Jun 11, 2014, 16:01 #52718

    Hi Jeff - im not sure hes ever boasted about winning it has he? He cant 'boast' of 'wanting' to win it, he can only desire it surely, unless im missing your point perhaps? If he was so driven now to win it, i reckon even Arsene would be badgering them for the funds he would need to take a tilt at it. PL on a shoestring is one thing but CL is an entirely different proposition.Cant be done nowadays and for all i reckon AW is well past his prime, hes not daft. Is he?

  142. jeff wright

    Jun 11, 2014, 15:50 #52717

    All great managers in England since the 1960s have won the European Cup or one of the other Euro cups. Wenger's limited tactical abilities and dogmatic idealism have handicapped him from winning anything in Europe - other than losers medals. The fact that both the Wembley FAC finals recently against Championship side Wigan and lowly Hull exposed again Wenger's lack of tactical nous with the tippy tappy football having to desperately be ditched for an old fashioned 4-4-2 , with two big strikers up front. Had Wenger had the brains to start with that line-up he would probably have won the finals in normal time. It is big step up in class however from playing Wigan and Hull to playing in CL finals against top opposition and having his plan B , a 4-4-2 formation with Giroud and Sanago up front, hardly looks like a winning formula that would end Wenger's Euro misery. I have to disagree with Ron though on his view that Wenger is not bothered now about the European cup - I do believe that he is actually hurting inside over his failure to live up to his boast that he wanted to win it to leave as a benchmark for future Arsenal managers. The 8m a year wages and no pressure on him to win anything obviously though helps to soften the blow.

  143. Ron

    Jun 11, 2014, 15:32 #52716

    PPP - i thought Flamini was a cracking LB and seriously think he would have been great at it had he not have deluded himself into thinking he was was as good in Centre Mid. Yes, i know hes right footed but so what in todays game. Saw him at Anfield one lousy night, sleet and drizzle etc about early 2005 time. We lost 1-0 to a late Garcia goal. He was utterly superb at LB that night as was Jens. Proper rearguard stuff, bodies in the way and such like. Whatever happened to our ability to do that under AW? Seems like a lifetime back now. Stayed over in a travel lodge near Warrington as weather so bad on the roads but that's another story not for these boards!

  144. BADARSE

    Jun 11, 2014, 15:00 #52714

    Glad you are happy GoonerGoal! Though I think the opposite is true, Arsene Wenger is held in high regard in Europe...hang on! We are in Europe too! So he is held in high regard in some areas in Europe, did you see what I did there?

  145. GoonerGoal!

    Jun 11, 2014, 14:53 #52713

    Wenger winning the Champions League? HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!HA! HA! Never gonna happen, Wenger has turned Arsenal into a joke in Europe. WENGER/GAZIDIS/KROENKE OUT! VIVE LA REVOLUTION!

  146. BADARSE

    Jun 11, 2014, 14:49 #52712

    Ha ha, love that story 24601, sounds like you became a 'basketball case'. By the way Ron, that wasn't an instruction of westlower's. Just go to the concert, enjoy it, and come home safely. Ha ha.

  147. Edmund

    Jun 11, 2014, 14:43 #52711

    If Wenger's aim is the CL, he would have gone to PSG and not worry about balancing the Arsenal budget. However I do agree that AW never seems to change although he has demonstrated a willingness to see games out in the last season, something seldom seen before.

  148. ppp

    Jun 11, 2014, 14:36 #52710

    A thought provoking piece Thomas, thank you. I thought it was a bit unecessary to play soothsayer at the end and cite the next three barren years. With a bit of high stakes transfer activity, who knows?? But I agree that Wenger has himself to blame for not making it in Europe. Easily our best chance was when we lost out to the burgeoning Abramovich Chelsea with that sickening Wayne Bridge winner at Highbury. That team, the invincibles, really should have been crowned European Champions. The team he actually reached the final with (and came within 20 odd minutes of winning) was actually a pale shadow of the sides he built before. Senderos and Flamini were integral parts of a defence that still retains the record for fewest goals conceeded on a Champions Leage run to the final. If they can do it - Mertescielny can do it. Personally I don't think we're five players away from contending - more like 2.

  149. Westlower

    Jun 11, 2014, 14:22 #52708

    @Badarse, I went to a college basketball game in Tucson,Az. It was a pantomine with an organist playing his triumphant overture whenever there was a score, accompanied by cheerleaders flaunting their talents. Seemingly there was a score every 30 seconds. The final result was along the lines of 69-67. It was almost as mind numbing as the daily Wenger bashing. @Ron, One of the finer things in life is attending a Clapton concert. You can die a happy man afterwards.

  150. BADARSE

    Jun 11, 2014, 14:15 #52707

    Mark T, the CL allowance of four entries for England is an aside. It has a bearing I grant you, but the CL without Sky TV promoting it in the way they did would have struggled. Once the CL honchos realised they had a king's ransom at their disposal it was a steady progression to increasing the games by restructuring the format. So lots of games required lots of teams, ergo the 'fourth place' dilemma. It brings huge rewards and cannot be ignored. Every club in the PL with Arsenal's pedigree, resources and ability would strive in a similar fashion to achieve the coveted place-but we get it! Everything is intrinsically linked, so it follows had Sky not oversold the CL, or blokes enjoying the pub football atmosphere, or societies' disposable income being utilised for home-viewing then the financial drug wouldn't have hooked these clubs, one of which is AFC. The football vista would have been different. Perhaps the Russian gangster wouldn't have come to town, certainly not the oil mogul, and we would have seen a constant battle with MU. It continued for over a decade so there is every reason to imagine it's continuity. They followed a spend policy, we were the antithesis of that. By now their money may have run out, or the debt management. We conversely may have come out the other side of the mixer and been in such a position of dominance we would have won nearly everything, nearly all the time. Apart from being unbelievably boring that may have been, 'the greatest thing that ever happened to Wenger'.

  151. Ron

    Jun 11, 2014, 13:51 #52705

    Hi Westie - That's great to hear. Bet he loved meeting big TA. Hope he falls in love with his guitar, though mention to him it can take a lifetime to master it (if anybody ever does) and not getting impatient is key, otherwise he might just smash his guitar up the wall. Everybody goes there mate!!Its the finger 'gymnastics' that's the secret and assimilating using left and right hand to do totally different tasks but at the same time. Its rare we do that in life's mundane tasks and the guitar loves to torment over it. Beatles stuff is good learning material. Nearly every song can be played using 4/5 chords played at the most basic level of Beatle play. Good for him. PS. Westie - Clapton gig in a fortnight. Cant wait.

  152. BADARSE

    Jun 11, 2014, 13:48 #52704

    Ha ha. Yup I can imagine that 24601. A pal went to the east coast of the USA in the early 70's and managed to go to a game out there. True it was in it's infancy then-Phil Woosnam?-and my friend said it was such a novel experience. He said there was a soundtrack that played whenever the home side began an attack. It was a fast galloping style piece of music and swore the players' legs went nineteen to the dozen when it played. A trumpet fanfare signalled a goal and he spent much of the game either shaking his head in disbelief, or laughing it off. I am prepared for any eventual outcome, am constantly astonished by directions society takes, but never surprised. So Red Square has an Arsenal in it? That I like. Have fond memories of Old Vienna, great rail transport system-very clean-and the people were pleasant, just struggled with the food. Vegetarians have a tough time in most places.

  153. Mark T

    Jun 11, 2014, 13:40 #52703

    BADARSE the trouble is we are not even good enough to win our own league let alone the CL.We havent finished in the top 2 for 9 years.The greatest thing that ever happened for Wenger was UEFA allowing 4 English teams into the CL.Teams like Barca Madrid Inter Chelsea United Bayern have all won the CL and their own countries title in the last 10 years we have finished 4th SIX times.But to our clueless manager thats a trophy.The priority again come August will again be to finish 4th.But its not all bad news today we are resigning the greatest striker in the world when your team is 5 up Carlos "The Jackass" Vela.Thanks Wenger

  154. Westlower

    Jun 11, 2014, 13:31 #52702

    @Badarse, I'll go one step further and suggest beyond the Euro League they'll be a global league. TV & sponsors money will make it happen. Can you imagine Beckham's Miami team playing Man U, the Sky commentators will be coming in their pants!

  155. El Bodgeo

    Jun 11, 2014, 13:29 #52701

    I am confused by the view that Wenger is 'desparate' to win th CL and priorites The CL over other competitions? Surely he prioritises the Premership quest for the hallowed 4th spot above all else, hence the reason we can never finish top of a bloody qualifying group and get stuffed in the 1st KO round!

  156. BADARSE

    Jun 11, 2014, 13:14 #52700

    Good afternoon gentlemen. Amos, Ron and westlower. I tried to envisage a European League as a younger man and struggled with the concept. The slowly evolving CL made me realise it was already a part of us. What has transpired over the last two decades has convinced me that it will probably never grow beyond what it currently is. The boring repetition, the European-style of cat and mouse football, and the travel will all prove to be insurmountable obstacles as far as I can see. Of course if I am wrong, and there must be at least one occasion in my lifetime when I am, then Arsenal sit as a king-in-waiting for that eventual outcome. As AFC practise a very ordered style of management I expect that continuity to offer a similar invite to the top European table in a decade or two, should circumstances alter. I also think winning the title of a team's country is the ultimate in everyday existence, as opposed to the status involved in a CL win. The first brings the real bragging rights-'We are the Champions!', the second is a slightly smugger but a paler tour de force. Though I agree with Ron's observation that the sheen has been somewhat dulled on any trophy win. It is the obsessive claptrap and hype which surrounds the football nowadays by the sports companies' TV coverage, which has oversold the fare. Much on this site in terms of wishing and hoping reflects the altered attitudes to success, which TV has spawned, along with the help of the vacuous sports reporters in our 'rags'. Either the CL or EPL would be nice to win though.

  157. Westlower

    Jun 11, 2014, 13:10 #52699

    @Ron, Just to change tact for this post, I have received an email from a Gooner friend in Vienna. He is having guitar lessons and reckons he can fumble through 'Yesterday' & 'Hey Jude. We took him to a Tony Adams book signing when he visited us and he had his photo taken with his hero. He just returned from a trip to Moscow & informs us that the building adjacent to the Kremlin is named the Arsenal Tower.

  158. Ron

    Jun 11, 2014, 13:02 #52698

    Amos - Yes, its all good and debatable. I always blame TV and the cash input that turned aspiration to expectation. In truth it was the occasional nature of the trophy wins that made them so fantastic back then wasn't it. Of course there was no trophy gobbling Club (Utd) then either to make us fans feel so 'deprived'. Liverpool were of course monstrous, but strangely we never used to feel that far away from them did we in many seasons and often used to get decent results v them as a palliative to their dominance and of course we beat them in Finals and 1989 etc to further sweeten the water.

  159. WENGER OUT

    Jun 11, 2014, 13:01 #52697

    The Tim Henman of football management, that's a new one, I like it! I don't know if he really is obsessed with winning the CL, certainly he gives it priority over the other competitions. But would a man with such grand ambitions underinvest in the squad so negligently? Would such a man not jump at the opportunity to bring in world class talent when it avails itself? That his record is so poor in Europe would disagree with your theory, but I really have no idea what his motivations are.

  160. Kenny

    Jun 11, 2014, 12:52 #52696

    To win the CL you have to be a manager who does tactics.Wenger doesnt do tactics.He plays the same way v Barcelona AC Milan and Bayern the same as he plays against Norwich.The last two years we were out of the CL by losing the first leg at home because of Wengers lack of tactics.In 17 years we have only got passed the Q/F stage twice.And in the last 4 years the first stage of the knockout stage.Wenger would have been sacked if our board was interested in actually winning trophies rather than finishing top 4 to get the CL wonga.Wengers record in Europe compares favorably with the Uk's record in the Eurovision song contest

  161. Ron

    Jun 11, 2014, 12:51 #52695

    Hi Westie - Yes, to me, a place in a grander euro league must have a longer term part in the Clubs thinking and is perhaps at least something that resembles an explanation for the Clubs seeming immovable and unshakable faith in what they're doing. Whos to say theyre wrong? Personally for me, such a euro league could prove to to be the straw that breaks the camels (footballs) back. It would remove whatever aura and mystique away (that still exists) within the identity of these titan euro Clubs. Its the playing them every so often that keeps the taste buds alive. Play them routinely and they then become akin to no more than, say Chelsea or even the Spuds? Quite a sad prospect, but im sure the marketing afterburners will go on and persuade everybody its the footballing promised land as it did then the PL was conceived? I wonder if Man Utd will 'buy it' as easily though? Perhaps not, so there's some solace for us all!!

  162. Amos

    Jun 11, 2014, 12:38 #52693

    Hi Ron. I'm pretty sure most managers see winning their domestic leagues as the greater sporting triumph. Real would have had an awful lot of disappointment over the last previous 12 years if the CL were the only pot they considered worth winning as would every other major European club at some point. How many of Fergie's 13 league titles would he swap for the 2 CL trophies in more than 20 years of trying? I suppose a Euro League isn't impossible but it has been envisaged for decades and doesn't seem any more likely now than at any point previously. I doubt Arsene is contemplating it coming about during the currency of his 3 year contract. I don't think the club are reluctant to spend the cash to guarantee winning the title as much as they've been unable to. Since we last did so the resources needed to win it have far exceeded anything available to us. But - we have spent more in the last 3 seasons than in the previous 8 combined so maybe it won't always be the case. You maybe right in that the financial juggernaut that football has become have devalued the winning of trophies but equally it seems to have made their acquisition far more important to some followers now than it appeared to be in the past. I'm pretty sure that the average gooner of 25 years ago didn't have anything like the expectations that many seem to have now. They seemed more like aspirations back then.

  163. DJ

    Jun 11, 2014, 12:27 #52692

    As I am firmly in the Arsene has had his day camp I must say I prefer his approach to football than Mourinho's. Those who are old enough should remember George Graham's last three seasons where we managed to win cups but our league form was dire. I never understood how David Hillier and Eddie McGoldrick could be considered better that David Rocastle and Anders Limpar!

  164. Westlower

    Jun 11, 2014, 12:27 #52691

    @Ron, You're right on the money in suggesting that a Euro League is surely the next step in footballs evolution. It's when rather than if. Being the number 6 seed in the CL put's AFC straight into the frame. Daniel Levy must be eaten up with envy. All that money spent and they are a million miles away from being contenders for a spot at Europe's top table. Time may tell AFC have come a long way in the past 18 years.

  165. Ron

    Jun 11, 2014, 12:16 #52689

    Hi Amos. Sadly as footie has been administered in the modern game im not sure that any of the Coaches see 'the Title' as having any great primacy nowadays and setting aside personal achievement, why should they? Some are more animated and driven by it than others of course, but ending up 3rd is as good now save for a bit of a leg up via the seedings in the CL thats not there for not being Champs. Its maybe the case that Arsene might forsee the day where the Club plays in a Euro League and not the PL. Surely its coming? What do you reckon? In support of the Clubs methods, there is a case for not spending the cash it needs just to get from 3rd to top, but instead focus just on getting 3rd and higher. Im pretty sure that's Arsenals and Arsenes view really and that they are disappointed deep down when we end up 4th, whatever us lot might think.Sadly it isnt a fan oriented view is it.Its the diluting of the title like this and the Cups and the euro tournies thats done for top level footie in the main for me. There arent any real 'bragging rights' any more as the commercial realities have torn them asunder. Sporting pride for fans (and players too)has been subrogated hasnt it and for me, thats a big black hole in the 'game'. So glad my high points as a fan occurred years ago (allowing for age that colours the perceptions of these things of course).

  166. BADARSE

    Jun 11, 2014, 11:56 #52688

    Well Thomas, where do I start? I thank you for the written work, as politeness ordains, but really! This article is based on the usual nonsense we all know exists and the one I have high lighted a number of times. Someone spews out an outlandish statement, those that want to buy into the concept and gobble it up, then it is regurgitated, another picks up the remnants and runs with it-finding a long line of willing hands outstretched to carry the baton. The relay team are destined never to reach the finishing line because they are running in a circle. Around and around. Who says the man's utmost desire is to win the CL? If he didn't try, or want to win it then who would bleat the loudest? I am guessing people like yourself Thomas. I shouldn't be too upset though as you have performed a service all the same; because so many want to identify with what you have written it will serve as a type of palliative care for them. On October 22nd Arsene Wenger is 65 years of age. Good old Arsenal, and good (not that old) Arsene.

  167. Arsene

    Jun 11, 2014, 11:42 #52687

    Yes of course I big up the premier league over the champions league, I do that because I've won the premier league.

  168. Amos

    Jun 11, 2014, 10:35 #52685

    I don't think Wenger is overly obsessed about winning the CL. You only need look at the infrequency with which any club has been able to win it to see that's a bit of a fool's errand and as with most knockout tournaments a somewhat superficial measure of greatness. Of course he'd be pleased to do so and a precursor to that has to be to qualify to compete in the competition but he has always said that the PL title is the primary objective and CL secondary. As for being at the top table of European managers I don't think that he would for one moment see himself as out of place already if he ever bothered to give it any thought. He'd be content for history to judge him on broader achievements.

  169. Westlower

    Jun 11, 2014, 10:30 #52684

    I agree with one piece of your Wenger bashing article Thomas. AW is 64.

  170. Ron

    Jun 11, 2014, 10:28 #52683

    AW staying on is perfect for Arsenals Board. Its nice and comfortable in the Diamond Club and the Boardroom. He does what they ask of him and takes no chances with their money. They're happy. Hes happy and exceptionally well paid and under comparatively little stress. I think CL failure used to frustrate him a lot at one time, but not now. Hes not a fool and he knows what changes it would take to win a CL and knows also that his team isn't equipped to do it and also that the Club isn't geared to doing it. Hes got a fantastic job and one that most bosses would crave. Arsenal are probably as far away now from being able to win the CL as they've been in all of his time there.Even in an imaginary world of limitless funds for the Club, i wouldn't be of the view that Wenger has the set of skills to win the CL.