Gooner Survey Results – Part 4

The Board, The Gooner (in all its forms)



Gooner Survey Results – Part 4

Favourite front cover last season


(Ed’s note – the pdf of the full survey results is not ready yet. Don’t shoot the messenger! It will be available for download in the next week or two, and I will link to it at the bottom of two or three editorial pieces when it is in place. Apologies to those who like to see the percentages of the voting in a more orthodox form)

The final survey review comes today in two parts. The first takes a brief look on your view on how our beloved Club is run and what we think about the Board, the Owners, and what we fans do in relation to that. The second part is a quick review of The Gooner itself, its website and Podcast

The main question is whether you are happy with how Arsenal is run as a football club and 89% of you agree that is well run – half of them saying ‘very well run’, the other saying ‘moderately well run’. Only 45 people believe that it is run terribly, and when you look at how our London neighbours are getting on in all parts of the City then there’s little to argue about. Sure, the performance on the pitch is one thing but ultimately the Board themselves have nothing to do with what goes on at London Colney Monday to Friday or on the pitch on the weekend, and as our Club is in a brilliant stadium, there is cash in the Bank, and we’re still growing then maybe they are doing a terrific job.

One aspect of the behaviour of 21st century football that becomes vitally important for regular CL-qualifiers like us is the Financial Fair Play Rules. Amongst us, it’s a 51/49 split as to whether we’ve any confidence in Arsenal will benefiting from our self-sustaining model in comparison to the likes of Manchester City, even though Uefa have come down and fined a few clubs. That split says a lot though as while we look to have our heads above water at the moment and Citeh themselves were punished, if the rules themselves aren’t really applied to the Uefa favourites (Barcelona, Real Madrid etc.) then what’s the point? And if the £150m+ literally just sits there in the Club’s current account not evening earning Kroenke enough interest, then what’s the point?

On the subject of Kroenke, 45% of us are dissatisfied with the way he has managed the Club since becoming the majority shareholder three years ago, and only 18% declare themselves as being satisfied. The remainder are very much ‘undecided’ but the bottom line is that if your ticket prices continue to rise, that money sits in the Bank doing sod all and our season aim remains ‘Finish 4th’ then I’m sure they’ll become dissatisfied very quickly.

Of course, Stan’s arch-nemesis and second largest shareholder in the Club is Uzbekistani oligarch Alisher Usmanov so some would say that selecting one or t’other is akin to ‘Sophie’s Choice’. Having said that 2/3 of you believes that it would be a good thing for him to be represented on our Board, and only 11% fervently against it. If you look at the rest of our Board made up of pensionable Hill Wood’s old mates and Stan + son, it may not be a bad idea. Although when asked whether they would support or oppose a takeover by Usmanov and his Red and White Holdings, 37% of us were unsure, 29% in favour, and 26% against it, so that would suggest that there isn’t a set feeling amongst the group of fans as a whole. Regardless of who sits in the Boardroom smoking cigars and counting £50 notes all day, for us fans the day-to-day running of the Club as a business is down to our CEO, Gazidis, and the feeling on him is also very much split. 35% are neither happy nor sad with him, 32.5% satisfied, and 32.5% dissatisfied.

Regardless of what they feel about Kroenke, Usmanov, Gazidis, or the rest of them, 79% agree that the Board needs new appointments and when asked whether that new appointment should be one of our ex-players, 70% were made keen on that. Some of the suggested guys were Pat Rice, Bob Wilson, Thierry Henry, Dennis Bergkamp and Frank McLintock, but the most popular guy with nearly 300 nominations was Tony Adams. Let’s face it – his nickname of Mr Arsenal is very, very well deserved, and we all want him to be involved with the Club in some way. Ideally he would have been our next manager but as Wycombe, Portsmouth and Gabala will confirm, he ain’t no manager, so if we can get him involved this way then so be it.

When it comes to forming a more formal relationship between the Club and its fans, there are many different Arsenal supporters groups with there being 4 main players – AISA, AST, BSM and REDaction. As for you guys are concerned, the best group is REDaction with 47% of you thinking they’re doing a good job, and a further 18% ranking them as ‘ok’. The AST have 68% behind them and AISA 54%, but BSM are split with 23% of people certainly less than impressed. Whatever the ratings are, though, the fact that we have 4 separate groups of Arsenal fans looking out for the best interests of all Arsenal fans is only a credible thing. Personally I actively back all 4 groups, but as long as you’ve had some contact with at least one of them then that’s a start.

Before we sign off for this summer then let’s have a quick look of what you guys think about The Gooner itself. The favourite cover this season the BFG effort, whilst the one you hated the most was the Dates of Destiny effort… probably because of how those dates turned out for us! Amongst the regular articles thankfully nothing is truly hated by a large number of people and the most popular efforts are Well Played/Pain in the Arse, The Spy, In the Away End and our own editor’s intro to every issue with Talking Reds. A newcomer in the favourite regulars is Programme Through the Years and hopefully that’ll stay this year. Aside from the regulars you were asked as to who your favourite writer was and the overwhelming winner is Simon Rose with his colossal 30% vote, and Matthew Bazell in second with 10%. As the man who finished 6th I thank the 62 fans I seem to have! Thanks to you all!

A slightly worrying thing is that 38% of you guys didn’t buy a copy of the fanzine itself last season but hopefully we sell enough to keep us being printed. Remember, we’re not a money-making organisation, chaps – we only get it printed if we can afford to have it printed! Thankfully 75% of you say you’ll buy the same number as you did this year and 22% say you’ll buy more so hopefully we’re going to keep on going for another few years at least. However, it is 2014 so whilst magazines are going out of fashion and we’re reliant on free newspapers, there’s always the internet and this website - onlinegooner.com is far more popular. Only 16% of you never visit it but 21% of you are on it at least once a day. Regardless of whether you read it online, offline, on the bog, or rely on what your friends tell you about it, 78% believe that it is ‘just right’. Some say we’re too sad, some say we’re too happy, but if we’re just about ok then we’ll keep on going just the way we are. Cheers all!

As the presenter of over 100 Gooner podcasts I am more hurt than you can imagine learning that only 1/3 of all of you listen to them and only 5.8% of you a regular listener. HOW DARE YOU! All joking aside, looking at your comments on how to improve it all, you’re asking for a lot more and frequent podcasts so that we’re keeping track of everything in the Arsenal world and not lagging behind. If this means an extra podcast or two here or there then this may be looked into. I’d prefer to find a girlfriend instead, but so be it… ;-)

And that’s your lot. Thank you to each and every one of you for taking part in the survey this year. Believe me when I tell you we really do take notice of what you have to say and if we have to tweak the fanzine, the site and/or the podcast to make you all happy then so be it. Cheers!

Twitter @DavidOudot


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103
comments

  1. Homer

    Jul 29, 2014, 20:41 #54456

    Very disappointed if Jenkins leaves permanently. We need players like that. They remind the others what it means to wear an Arsenal shirt. He is one of us, we need players like him. LBJ - great point about the fitness coach. Could be our best signing. Can we get Gary Lewin back to ? Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'Sir' without adding, 'You're making a scene.'

  2. LJB

    Jul 28, 2014, 0:13 #54388

    Oh dear Finsbury You obviously haven't heard about arsenals most important summer signing have you? Shad Forsythe,Fitness trainer to the German national Team and one of the leading fitness coaches in the world.Starts on Monday.

  3. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jul 27, 2014, 16:55 #54387

    DW, another film and it wasn't even a Carry on.

  4. Charlie

    Jul 27, 2014, 16:53 #54386

    I've never believed this garbage about Arsenal being not very good or entertaining before Arsene Wenger came along as it's simply not true and I'm a fan of Wenger. The knocking of Arsenal's style started with Jimmy Hill in the late 60's mainly through MOTD,yet even during that period there wasn't any other teams in England really setting the football world on fire. Arsenal were never lacking anything before Wenger came as they had the highest average finish throughout the 20th century.What Wenger did do is he introduced a new style of football into England which was never played by anyone before,a style which only Arsenal played for a good ten years yet since the introduction of the big money clubs like all things has now been effectively subdued by opponents.

  5. The Wrinkly One

    Jul 27, 2014, 16:31 #54385

    You could say Dark Side of the Moon was their last great album. I have not heard it of course but Oliver is going to put out an album of Parisian cafe songs when he is free. This maybe soon as Puma have said we are to sign Balo before we leave this great city. Stan thinks the franchise should be here. I agree and the South Bronx kids have good skills. Before I retire I would like to see Arsenal based here. The fans are more understanding about financial restraints.

  6. jeff wright

    Jul 27, 2014, 16:00 #54384

    The faithful at the Boleyn are not happy with the fat pie eater they still hanker after the days when it was fun to get relegated by playing pretty football.As the actress said to the bishop, some are never satisfied. We shouldn't be too smug though about the Fat ones non-academic approach with big Andy up front, after all Arsene , the master of illusion, had to resort himself in the FAC semi and the final to an embarrassing old fashioned 4-4-2 with two big lads up front to pull his nuts out of the fire ,after the pretty tippy tappy, that you so admire, had come up short again away from the coliseum . With yet again woeful defending on a par with a Sunday pub side's had resulted in us struggling to beat inferior opponents.Is it all about to change ? I will believe it when I actually see it. So far deja vu and I reckon that under Arsene that it will stay so.

  7. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jul 27, 2014, 15:51 #54383

    smithy, unfortunately Jenkinson's not his love child.

  8. Westlower

    Jul 27, 2014, 15:26 #54382

    @Jeff, Is it true the sun never shines on the dark side of the moon? Big Sam has finally killed off on thoughts of the 'appy 'ammers academy. Know what I mean 'arry!

  9. jeff wright

    Jul 27, 2014, 15:09 #54381

    Westie, our defending on corners and set pieces is pony and has been so for,well, donkeys years. I was refering to this and not what the game meant,although I doubt that monsieur Wonga went all the way to NYC and back ,he's famous now in the US after his world cup heroics, to get beaten by a team that would struggle in our Championship. Those who are happy watching our team defend as they do are watching the wrong side,they should be down the lane watching the spuds they are known for dodgy defending at AFC real supporters expect better and you can take your West Ham views on playing football Westie and stick them where the sun don't shine. We used to laugh at that nonsense years ago.

  10. jjetplane

    Jul 27, 2014, 14:12 #54380

    Means nothing been beaten by da Red Bulls and will probably mean nothing if Citeh run up a cricket score though if Palace ...... We're nearly there but let's all get behind Arsene and Jack who have promised us the league this coming season. The odd, crafty smoke is hardly gonna put a dent in that. What ya reckon Merse? ps Wenger looks at home with BT - just a bit a fun!

  11. Westlower

    Jul 27, 2014, 14:10 #54379

    @Jeff, I share your astute judgement & totally agree that the games up if we can't beat New York. Clueless board & manager, clueless players, hopeless signings, clueless tactics, clueless medical staff, crap stadium, nothing left but to dissolve the club with immediate effect. Refund all hapless season ticket holders & let the Sours become THE club in North London. When does the football season start on the dark side of the moon?

  12. Guy in Jersey

    Jul 27, 2014, 14:09 #54378

    Ron, I completely agree with you mate, watching Arsenal in the late 80s and early 90s was a great experience. We had a young, exciting team - who also had a ton of guts and determination - and we were watching them in a proper football stadium. Nothing can ever replace the togetherness and bond that comes from standing on the terraces and joining in all the chants. In GG's latter years, we became less enjoyable to watch, but what his team had (and which most of Wenger's teams have lacked) is an incredible strength of purpose and never-say-die attitude. Wenger has never understood how to defend a lead, GG's teams were famed for it. I also agree with your point about Wenger's lack of mental strength (or 'cowardice'), that extends to the type of players he wants in his squad, his constant excuses and moaning, and his lack of ruthlessness, especially when things are going against his teams. Arsenal are now known for bottling it, and we almost managed it against in last season's FA Cup Final. Great teams of the past and present bully, boss and intimidate their opponents, and ruthlessly ram home their mental and physical advantages - and when we had the likes of Vieira we did this as well as Fergie's Man U and Mourinho's Chelski - but no one fears us anymore.

  13. normal service

    Jul 27, 2014, 14:05 #54377

    normal pointless chicken licken sniping and whining from jeff wright....yawn

  14. Edmund

    Jul 27, 2014, 13:50 #54376

    Sad to see CJ go if that is true. You can't judge a player by a few performances. He is by no means top notch but did a great job when Sagna was out. Plus he counts as a home grown player. If Wenger bags Khedira, he would regain a lot of my respect.

  15. jeff wright

    Jul 27, 2014, 13:46 #54375

    normal service normal excuses ...yawn

  16. normal service

    Jul 27, 2014, 13:29 #54374

    jeff wright bleating about the defence in preseason exhibition game as if there was anything normal about it....typical jeff wright brain freeze....yawn..

  17. jeff wright

    Jul 27, 2014, 13:18 #54373

    "Some nice touches from Wilshere and Ramsey sprayed the ball about nicely. That was as good as it got though and it was no great shock when Brad Wright took advantage of some shocking marking ( nah surely not !!)to turn in Henry's corner. Diaby came on and Arsenal huffed and puffed but with no end product to show for all the effort." So in other words normal service resumed in away games.Yawn.

  18. Amos

    Jul 27, 2014, 13:01 #54372

    Players like Bowles, Merson, Best et al are all testimony that their excesses weren't confined to alcohol and that gambling, sex and substance abuse aren't modern inclinations. As to whether it's more or less rife now I can't say, but given how difficult it is for Wilshere to take a crafty draw I'm inclined to think it's much harder to get away with now. Even if tests aren't yet foolproof they are most certainly more rigorous and frequent plus the clubs own constant monitoring of players conditions and conditioning makes it likely that there're far fewer abuses afforded to the modern player than could have been taken for granted in the past.

  19. gunner fan

    Jul 27, 2014, 12:51 #54371

    Wenger out now!

  20. Amos

    Jul 27, 2014, 12:42 #54370

    I haven't tried to claim that players weren't skilful back in the day Ron. I've merely pointed out that the pace and intensity of the modern game puts different demands on player skills. Players would demosnstrate the skills appropriate to their times. Similarly the heavy mud patches of pitches often seen in the 70's might well put other demands on the skill sets of the modern player but there's no doubting that both ball and player moves quicker across the surface now which would also challenge those skills we enjoyed in decades past. The point is that a comparisons as to when football was best are impossible to make because conditions or the context in which those skills were and can be exhibited, as with the achievements themselves, simply aren't the same. As for the atmosphere at games that changed when stadiums became all seater and the Highbury Library was a taunt that existed long before the Emirates and I, and many others I'm sure, have watched many a boring game at Highbury. Like yourself, over the years I've spent a fair amount of time in Western Europe particularly, and while ManU and to a lesser extent Liverpool are highly regarded I can also remember, some years back, an elderly Parisian telling me at dinner how much he enjoyed the pre-war Arsenal side. Arsenal's stock in Europe grew before either club and even without the success in modern European competitions they're pretty well regarded among a wide circle of friends and contacts I have. Do many gunners fans uniquely resent Liverpool's standing in football? I've no idea whether that's true but I'm pretty sure that there're plenty of ManU fans who resent Liverpool's standing and plenty of Liverpool fans who resent ManU's standing in the game. There's no great secret about that either. What seems to me truly unique in football is just how many gunners fans resent Arsenal's standing in football.

  21. Ron

    Jul 27, 2014, 12:30 #54369

    Amos - PS . Just to finish, sorry. Players dont need lash nights now. Booze, pubbing/clubbing has been old hat for years. What footie fans don't like to accept is that those in the game with the mindset to party (its a minority too) have gambling, sex and substances as a substitute for where booze once sat as a priority. Far cheaper, less telling and often undetectable on the body and far more private. Its rife in sport, not just in football. The authorities will have us believe that the testing rigour for some of these habits will sift it out. Sometimes yes, but theyre as bigger liars as fans who think their heroes are crystal clean are idealists. On that sorry note, im off to play cricket. Rain is forecast. We might a helping hand today!

  22. jjetplane

    Jul 27, 2014, 12:12 #54368

    Seen lots of pictures from NY as i have family out there and the shirts on people's backs make an interesting and telling read. Everybody is wearing GOD, Henry, Nasri shirts which tells you how support for this turgid regime merrily floats on high. Results as WESTIE as wisely pointed out, are officially irrelevant now and it is the DREAM (see where it's going?) that 'sportsfans' are buying into. Henry walks around selling the Arsenal as though it never existed before him. He is turning into a right smug sales rep and perfect for the great sell that Arsenal have become. I have a vision of Perry Groves racing towards the north bank as we win the league in a flood of goals. What is really worrying is how TV is gearing up for multiple narratives for the new season. One is dedicated to thrashings of Arsenal. And if Wenger can sell these 'accidents' then he is still doing a good job. When I was in America for a year or so soccer was a big no no and I was stuck into college basketball/football which was great stuff. Hot salt beef in da Phog. Where was I? Allenfield. That's a house that rocks. Crash. RON amazing posts - totally nailed.

  23. Ron

    Jul 27, 2014, 12:07 #54367

    Hi Amos - its all subjective isn't it. Its each to our own. I think theres a view fostered that football was far less skilled say back in the 70s and afterwards etc to todays game. I don't quite share it.The game was so different thats all. Its a myth too to suggest that so many players were perma peed up. Footballers are better athletes today no doubt. They've better conditions to become so, but more skilled footballers? i dont think so. The extent of what physical efforts are give to is also hard to guage. Im not convinced theres any difference but games were harder fought back then, thats for sure. So many of todays results are more or less a given. So many lesser clubs dont even recognise the need to try for a result v the top sides and even rest players when meeting them! That wasn't the case years ago. A big scalp was the highlight of a season and a treat for the fans. The enjoyment is personal too. In the 5 years i was a regular at the Emirates i often came away feeling bored and was bored during games there. Many say the same to me. Its one of the reasons why the atmosphere there is so poor.As ive mentioned to Westie, you can keep the razzamataz mate. The environs that football exists in cant be detached from what football is on the pitch. The players attitudes reflect those environs and in my view theyre personal financial objectives have taken over their approach to how they play the game, why they became footballers and for sure it controls how they perceive their ambitions and career objectives. It shows in their play. Its not hard to detect. Finally im often in Germany, Holland, Belgium and Romania these days and yes Arsenal are we ll regarded. They're not near elevated and perceived to Liverpool proportions though by so many people over there. They wont be either with no European pedigree to speak off, its hardly a surprise. Perhaps in years to come it will change. i dont know. Many Gunners fans still resent Liverpools standing in football. No idea why but its unique to Arsenals fans, im sure of that.

  24. Ron

    Jul 27, 2014, 11:43 #54366

    Hi Westie - a defeat never bothers me mate, even a heavy one. Its always been 'the day out' for me going to footie. Having said this, i love it when a young guy comes through too like you do. I dont attribute our hammerings to young player naivety though pal. I was there at the 6-1 at OT in 2001 which in my view was worse to see than the tonkings last season, 2 of which i also saw (i'm a bad omen mate!) and there wasn't any green horns in that 2001 team, just lousy selection, a defeatist, towel thrown in attitude and some rank bad players, a few who id say were amongst the worse to put a red shirt on in all my time. As much as i can look back on Wenger and admire much of whats hes done, in my view hes a coward as a man and certainly as a manager when faced with tough assignments and he s created an acceptance of his own cowardice in his teams for so many years in the last decade. We wont progress until the habit is removed and for me, hes not the man to do it as its inherent in his make up. Away games are and have been my thing for years and its there to see so often. Theres no getting away from it and hes no excuses either as i see it. Its not just big games, i ve see his teams wilt so often at places like Sunderland and Boro. I hope youre right about where Arsenal are heading but i dont see it. We and Wenger have been the beneficiaries of whats a quite average league for some years, but now its on the up again i suspect, not in terms of footballing quality but in competitiveness and im not sure we re going to step up. I hope to be wrong. Ive no problems with being wrong either. I agree that the modern game has its commercial masters and the razzamataz is there for that etc etc. Its gone to far for me my friend and i reject it now. Footie has been replaced by other things for me. I enjoy it generally though still and i do enjoy seeing other Clubs from time to time and recognising what they achieve or in some cases, admiring their struggles!! Agree re 91 team. Should have gone on to great things. I think his predilection to his bungs took over his priorities that lead to that raft of donkeys joining the Club, plus Alan Smith was negated by the Ian Wright emphasis and Wright was GGs get out of jail free card wasnt he. Im pretty sure GG must have oft reflected on a lost opportunity to have become our greatest Coach ever in his private and honest moments.

  25. Westlower

    Jul 27, 2014, 11:13 #54365

    @Ron, I watched every one of Arsenal's home games + some away, particularly at OT, Anfield, Goodison. Loved every minute until GG lost his nerve after the 91/92 season when we lost to Wrexham (FA Cup) & Benfica (Euro Cup). Up to that point we averaged 66 goals per season, which dropped to 48 thereafter. In fact AFC only scored 40 goals scored in PL inaugural season. Simply not good enough, we became Stoke City in disguise. After GG's earlier triumphs it was heartbreaking to watch & I feared relegation in his final season. Admittedly George was hamstrung for cash to buy quality players but I always thought it suited his mentality to make do with cheap buys, such as Carter, Helder, McGoldrick, Lyderson,etc. For me GG's best team were the 91 Champions: Seaman, Dixon, Bould, Adams, Winterburn, Thomas, Davis, Rocastle, Merson, Smith, Limpar. Coming back up to date I believe in young players improving year on year & expect improved performances from all our young Brits. Part of the pain in giving youngsters their chance is suffering heavy defeats when playing 'complete' teams. Nobody enjoys a good hiding, especially me, but you have to analyse the reasons behind it instead of throwing the toys out of the pram. The times they are a changing and we are becoming stronger as players mature. We are freeing ourselves of the post Highbury shackles & we are as well run a club as you will find anywhere. We both agree the game is still evolving and to get top sponsorship to provide the cash for top players fees/wages you have to appease the new paymasters. Puma put on quite a show in New York - this is football 2014 style with all its razzmatazz. They require an exciting team to promote their products & an inhibited, defensive minded team, aka 92/93 simply would not cut the ice. We are not where we want to be yet but I believe we will arrive at our desired destination anytime soon.

  26. Amos

    Jul 27, 2014, 10:37 #54364

    The circus that goes on in and around football doesn't make what goes on on the pitch any more or less entertaining Ron. The environment that football operates in now may be distasteful to many of us but it doesn't mean going to a football game is less exciting now than it was 20, 30 or 40 years and more ago. There're as many disappointments in the past as there're in the present and no doubt will be in the future. I would reckon players now run further and faster and with at times greater skill and more physical effort than what we'd seen before. It's not possible to go out on the lash after a game, or play with a hangover as some claim they did back then and be considered a top player nowadays. It's always easy to look back nostalgically at the past as though there were only good days. That isn't any more true than the idea that there aren't any good days to enjoy currently. You're right that GG's teams aren't always given full credit for some very good performances but the record shows that he won fewer and lost more of his games and scored less frequently than the sides we've become used to seeing over the last couple of decades. That's not to disrespect some great players or undervalue the peak of some teams, as now they're just products of their times, but it's reasonable to put their achievements and the achievements of the present teams in the context of the times. As you say I'm sure that ManU sides generally are held in high respect within European football though I think much of the regard for Liverpool is more residual and less current than the regard in which Arsenal are now held. I'm not sure it's possible to rank teams in terms of European 'regard' rankings in any formal sense (perhaps online gooner should have included it in their survey?) but I'm pretty sure it's not all ManU and Liverpool and that Arsenal are pretty well regarded to. But as with GG we don't have to dismiss Arsenal in order for ManU and Liverpool to be held in high regard.

  27. AMG

    Jul 27, 2014, 10:06 #54363

    Who the heck voted for Simon Rose? You actually like being condescended to by that boring self-congratulatory idiot? Not that he's written on here since his last 'told you so' article was so poorly received.

  28. smithy

    Jul 27, 2014, 8:08 #54362

    I hope Arsene was proving a point to the board playing Monreal at centre back and no one upfront.If he does that next week at the Emirates cup he will get slaughtered!The Douglas Costa link is interesting though.

  29. Ron

    Jul 27, 2014, 8:02 #54361

    Westie - youre right, football was once a sport or rather it still had sporting manifestations. It isn't now. Its as you say it , a commercially powered, celebrity flavoured circus that tips its cap very slightly to football the sport. Its coverage is as much about its W.A.G.S now as its football. Do you really find Arsenal 'entertaining'? You must be easily satisfied. Yes they try to play an expansive game as you say, but be honest theyre hardly that good at it and the way they play isnt heralded the World over as you suggest. How could it be? The Club is hardly known for its glory glory march right now. Even in England, other Clubs supporters while not often bracketing Arsenal along with Utd and Chelsea as Clubs they don't like, rarely acknowledge them as being as fluid and compelling as you're making out. There is still an element of hark back to the Bergy Henry Pires days though and its that which sustains Arsenals image here and abroad, not the present mundane and insipid collection of average Joes. You do Arsenal a massive disservice by your erroneous, revisionist views of GGs Arsenal. Its a tired old cliche to state that across GGs years that we were a team of drab 0-0 merchants. You should try going back across some old stats and compare how many 0-0 games we had compared to other Clubs doing the same, in the same period.Yes, he allowed us to become as stale as he did from 92 until his removal, but i can only assume that you never saw much live football at Arsenal in his earlier years. We played some great stuff from 87 - 91. The views that you express are a slight on some great players of that time who would walk into todays team and displace many of this present posse of posing feinthearts. There are those who speak as you do though, a good few of whom who managed to scrape season tickets after the move to the souless bowl from Highbury or who bought seats in that atrocious 'Club level' charade there to get a foot in the door, who didn't go to Arsenal much (or at all) before but who now think theyve a right to portray what went before as if its something to apologise for. Its disgraceful, as is the acceptance of Arsenal getting 'thrashed' from time to time. With 'fans' who echo your view, its ever likely the Club is on a low grade, low light journey to nowhere special. Wengers Arsenal isnt at all held up as you suggest in Europe either. Theyre known of for sure but i can tell you now, its all United and Liverpool in the minds of europeans when english football gets mentioned. The views that you espouse makes me glad i'm out of it though by and large so i thank you for that.

  30. Westlower

    Jul 27, 2014, 6:11 #54360

    @CG, My preference is to watch a team that puts the emphasis on creativity & scoring goals rather than stopping the other team from playing. In an ideal world we'll always score more than we concede but even one of the best Arsenal teams of all time succumbed to a 5-0 trashing at Stoke in 70/71. It happens! @JJ, I agree GG is an Arsenal hero. He was responsible for many great achievements during his time as player & manager. But the flip side is he was also responsible for some of the most turgid, mundane football I've ever witnessed at Highbury. I'd hate to go back to that.

  31. A Cornish Gooner

    Jul 27, 2014, 0:38 #54359

    Westie Post 57545 Correct me if I'm wrong, but the two main aims of a football team are, to score goals, and not concede goals. These two are not mutually exclusive! I am genuinely amazed that you can suggest that because of the 'expansive' or 'positive expressive approach' to the way we play you are prepared to accept the occasional thrashing. No one is suggesting going back to 0-0 games, just a team that can be disciplined enough to not be embarrassed 'occaionally'.

  32. Finsbury Joe

    Jul 27, 2014, 0:28 #54358

    A loss to the mighty New York Red Bull. Why not start as you mean to go on eh Wenger?

  33. DW Thomas

    Jul 27, 2014, 0:23 #54357

    Our earlier discussion of "rational thinking" seems to have eluded many. I am ok in having disagreements and often see both sides with clear eyes. Yet, some or maybe all who are fully to one side lack a little understanding of their opposites. I am not fond of Wenger anymore and think his time is up. But I still hold respect for the man who had a glory filled past. What should bother the "rational thinker" is those that condemn others for differing views AND blind support for anyone who has failed in his job and is paid exorbitantly for it. To have no criticism of Arsene seems to me the behavior of a sycophant. What I want is the best effort from the club, in all areas. I don't believe we have had it for some time!

  34. jjetplanecrash

    Jul 26, 2014, 23:37 #54356

    the only spin here comes from jeff wright and the gang of chicken licken sky is falling doom mongers...err...yawn...and you couldnt make it up....but they do

  35. jjetplane

    Jul 26, 2014, 23:19 #54355

    Amazing how Wenger resorted to GG's boring, boring football to scrape past Hull to win a trophy he has abused as much as his old mate Fergie. GG is an Arsenal hero, through and through. You can keep your financial institution and your silly numbers game. Looks like BT certainly likes showing Arsenal getting hammered. Wenger has made Arsenal a laughing stock. Would not have happened with a GG sort of guy in charge. Let's hope Sky don't jump on the BT bandwagon. errr ......

  36. jjetplane

    Jul 26, 2014, 22:47 #54354

    Weak manager, weak team. More hammerings to come. Great posts from JW who does not resort to spin. Only one Tony Pulis ......

  37. Westlower

    Jul 26, 2014, 21:42 #54353

    For those of you seeking written guarantees that AFC will never get thrashed again is bizarre. Thankfully we play an expansive game and on occasion we'll be on the end of a heavy defeat. I wouldn't swap our present attacking philosophy for GG's boring, boring Arsenal. I admire AFC having a positive expressive approach to the game. I don't want to see us go back to specialising in playing the offside trap and parking the bus to gain a point. That mindset has helped kill off the Italian game. The TV companies love to screen our games & as a consequence the gospel spreads worldwide, drawing in more fans into the AFC family. Who wants to go back to watching 0-0 games, certainly not I. I've been there, done that & if the alternative is the occasional thrashing then so be it. I can deal with that. Even Putin's puppet previously sacked Maureen because of his percentage method of safety play even though he won loads of silverware. Due to TV promotion, football has become the biggest game in town & if we don't entertain the world wide audience & attract top sponsors we are in danger of slipping back to the yo-yo club we once were. We are everything the Sours dream of becoming.

  38. Finsbury Joe

    Jul 26, 2014, 21:03 #54352

    Chambers.....one for the future Bard? If he comes to Arsenal, his future will be backwards progression, injury, the fading of fine prospect as he loses confidence at being played out of position by an inept manager, and looked after by an incompetent fitness team. Shame, England could have done with a decent right back.

  39. Pete

    Jul 26, 2014, 19:28 #54351

    Jeff Wright just walks around his house all day tripping and having visions of things that either never happened or in his mind he believes actually happened.

  40. DW Thomas

    Jul 26, 2014, 19:25 #54350

    I remember an opening season game recently vs Everton where we spanked them I believe like 6-1 at home. They were not a great team that season, but it was a great way to start and I remember thinking hey, we might compete this year! Well, as always we flopped in the long run and when it comes to big games, big teams, we typically get beat now, often very badly. I put it down to team defending, not just our back four who are often pretty good. Wouldn't mind seeing Varane paired with Kos, BFG the backup, and good wing back backups. We need to learn how to defend better as a team, to include the likes of players like Ozil.and Walcott who regularly go missing defensively. When Barca were recently almost unplayable, I was most impressed by their team defending, not the offense. Iniesta especially, even Messi. They always wanted the ball back. A form of tiki tala works. Add clinical finishing and team defending and it still a great way to play. I prefer the 4-5 pass counter attacking destroying play of the Invincibles as its more fun to watch. It if you do a mix of both, that's when a team is really firing! Problem is, Wenger thinks just possession can win games, it seems to me. But, we have all seen that annihilated the past few seasons as we can't score when we need to and our team defending, let alone set pieces and goalkeeping, let us down. And Westie, wasn't that player at Newcastle Diaby by Joey B.? That was another "mental strength" moment of collapse! Most embarrassing game as an Arsenal fan except for the 8-2 mauling when I didn't even recognize my club! Some of you lads spin things like the spin master of funky fresh Arsenal excuses himself! I will be the first to start shouting support again when things seriously change for the better. Until then, it will be like that recent time-travel repeat day flick with Tom Cruise. Replace the actor with Wenger and instead of dying each time in training or in combat by aliens, Wenger gets to replay those bad defeats till he gets it right and wins. No pressure though in his real life as he gets rewarded for 4th place!

  41. allybear

    Jul 26, 2014, 18:48 #54349

    @Westlower fair point but what about the terrible hammerings and when do you remember Arsenal recently thrashing one of the top teams? Could you see it happening any time soon? I just feel that AW is very lacking when it comes to defensive tactics. I personally dont think that much will change.

  42. jeff wright

    Jul 26, 2014, 18:17 #54348

    Amos,I forgot to apologize for saying AC scored 5 goals against us,it was of course only 4!

  43. jeff wright

    Jul 26, 2014, 18:07 #54347

    Amos The effects of FPP will be minimal on the big spenders in this land and also in the case of the Spanish ones - they will still be the clubs most likely to win the trophies . I say most likely because Athletico showed that they can be taken on in Spain,but that had nothing to do with Plattini's fair play rules,but was down to the manager at Athletico and his squad. Which brings us nicely to Arsene! Nah, I'm not having it that fair play rules are suddenly going to turn him into a winner at top level again.The defensive side of our game in away games as gone down hill for years look at last season's away games in big fixtures,United,lost there again, even with cack-handed Moyes in charge,City ,Chelsea ,Liverpool ,Everton... all real shockers . Even the FAC semi and the final were another two displays of inept defending with a desperate penalty shootout needed to beat Wigan and extra time v Hull and at one time 2-0 down and with our players defending again like a Sunday league pub side. Yes , we did win the cup in the end but it was hardly convincing case for claiming that nothing needs changing .They won't change under Arsene with him everything is geared to playing on that perfect pitch at the Colosseum where the lesser lights of the league are easily beaten by our fast track bullies ,but who as we know only too well melt like chocolate soldiers in the sun when faced with better class sides away from home.

  44. Westlower

    Jul 26, 2014, 18:05 #54346

    @Allybear, In the top 2 domestic competitions (PL & FA Cup), Wenger lost 7 games, as did Pelligrini, Rodgers & Maureen. So your comment about him being constantly out thought by the others managers doesn't hold up. Of the 7 occasions we met Chelsea, Man C & Liverpool, we only lost 3 times. Go figure!

  45. Bard

    Jul 26, 2014, 17:44 #54345

    Westie; To my mind the jury's out on positivity till the end of the window. So far we have made one serious addition Sanchez. We have replaced Sagna and signed a second string keeper to replace Fab, Chambers is one for the future if he comes. Only a Khedira type signing or two will signal serious intent. Until that happens its more of the same which ever way you spin it.

  46. Amos

    Jul 26, 2014, 17:14 #54344

    @jeff. FFP has always been an instrument of cumulative effect - more ball and chain than guillotine - but if you think FFP is not giving Chelsea and City some issues then you're the one not living in the real world. Perhaps it's the same world in which we conceded 5 goals to AC Milan though? It seems our poorest defensive display in Europe only exists in your head! Not so much a land of dreams as mightmares I guess. Sure there's always need to improve our defending but if Hull could have been 3-0 up then they could also have lost the game 5-2 but maybe in your world we really did lose the FA Cup final?

  47. allybear

    Jul 26, 2014, 16:49 #54343

    Yes Pete their style allows them to get hammered and be physically dominated by other teams oh and also the manager constantly outthought by the opposing manager!

  48. Pete

    Jul 26, 2014, 16:39 #54342

    Players are attracted to Arsenal because they are the only Premiership team who consistently plays the game the right way, unfortunately there's another nineteen teams in England who prefer to hoof it..So even though Arsenal are highly thought of when Barca and Madrid come calling players think it's an easy way to earn a packet without being kicked every week and chasing sky-balls by whoever Arsenal are playing.Spain is more appealing to most players whatever they might say.

  49. allybear

    Jul 26, 2014, 16:37 #54341

    The heavy defeats last season were not accidents just embarrassing. Its not unusual as it has happened before. There can be no excuses for such defeats. Getting beaten 6-0 by Chelsea is no accident&how many other teams have they beaten by big scores? Gross bad management it is.

  50. Westlower

    Jul 26, 2014, 16:36 #54340

    @DW Stay positive! Why join the gloomy doom merchants on the dark side of the moon? You could have JW & Maguiresbridge for neighbours. It's entirely possible that Jenks will go out on loan next season to give him more game time. @Jeff, Your reference to the 4-4 at Newcastle omitted two important facts. We had a player sent off & the ref awarded a very dubious penalty against us, shades of Villa at home last season.

  51. DW Thomas

    Jul 26, 2014, 16:16 #54339

    One positive thing amidst the usual Arsenal preseason bs. Young Zelalem. If rumours are true, he looks very promising! But, like Jack before him, how will he pan out at the club? Can Wenger still develop these young, talented lads? Here's to a hopeful future...and shame about Jenkinson if other rumours are true about Callum Chambers? What happened to Jenkinson's development? Does it mirror our defensive coaching ability? Oh! There I go again,back to negatives! And I was really trying....

  52. DW Thomas

    Jul 26, 2014, 16:04 #54338

    A couple things on our history and current and future state of the club. Our history is arguably as good as any other in England, trophies aside, then United take it, or Liverpool. But, the potential is great and ripe for global fan expansion. Wenger seems clueless about the States. Post a decent US WC, there are many new fans who just need to learn the game to start watching and buy their tv packages. His comments about how th US has changed (where has he been??) and the clubs choice to go to Asia over the US is mind boggling! Why not do both? City, Chelsea, Inter, and many others have already been to te US to expand their fan base. And We get is complaining about his preseason post WC??? The excuses for failure are already flowing, and not even the Comm. Shield has passed! Boy the team sure do look like their having fun though!!! One day this sleeping giant of a club will wake up and achieve its potential. I will be waiting. So much can be realized if the right men take us forward. Complaining about preseason is not the way...

  53. jeff wright

    Jul 26, 2014, 15:56 #54337

    Amos, if you think that PPR is causing City and Chelsea problems,or will do so, then you really are living in Dreamland.Regarding the embarrassing away defeat defensive cave-ins they have been going on for years - the 4-4 at Newcattle was one awhile ago when we lost a 4-0 lead .We have seen them in Europe as well at such places as AC Milan when we conceded 5 goals - I would even say that night was the poorest defensive display in Europe that I have ever seen from an Arsenal team.This, 'it's not a usual thing' from you Amos is just more deluded nonsense . Even Hull were 2 goals up (nearly 3 ) within 20 minutes from the kick-off in the cup final! And that Amos was not a while back it was in fact our last competitive game that we played in lol. So obviously some work still to be done by Arsene to get our defense working properly to avoid more 'accidents' occurring ,non ?

  54. Amos

    Jul 26, 2014, 15:34 #54336

    'lo Ron. There're a number of clubs both here and elsewhere that have as rich a tradition and history as we have and a few who have even richer traditions and history. Barca and Real are among those and while they're able to negotiate independent TV rights and (as with the Portuguese and to a lesser extent the Italians) their labour laws allow them to recruit young South American talent much more easily than we can they're likely to hold a bigger pull than us for some time. But you're right we're still a great club and as the playing field levels a little more the gap that's existed for a while now will begin to narrow too.

  55. Amos

    Jul 26, 2014, 15:20 #54335

    Observer. It isn't 'winning' that is in need of defining as much as 'precursor' along with an appreciation of context. I agree that we're not Real Madrid though if that takes your point anywhere? The BSM may claim they are not anti-manager they just want him to manage the club completely differently from the way he has been managing the club so they are just anti his philosophies, methods and the decisions he makes. Which amounts to much the same thing. At least you've indicated that you do appreciate that referring to our squad as small is disingenuous but it just pleases you to continue doing so - which is fair enough I guess. @jeff. There's no need to wait until next season to accept that the claim we experience 'humiliating trouncings away to the top sides EVERY season' is untrue. It still wouldn't be true even if it were repeated next season. Some do try to have their cake and eat it hence we either 'have to do our best to operate within the financial/football world we're in' or we don't. Nobody has forced City to pay over the top for many of the players they took from us or to pay them wages with money that the Mansour 'tooth fairy' kept putting under their pillow but clearly in doing so we were just doing our best to operate in the real financial/football world we were in. Fortunately football has began to appreciate that the financial/football world that was in operation wasn't a reasonable one in which to operate. Hence the introduction of rules to force them, and not us, to operate differently. So it seems the moralising was justified and has gone some way in preventing football from continuing to paper over its cracks. They'll thank us one day.

  56. jeff wright

    Jul 26, 2014, 14:09 #54334

    Let' see how we get on in away games this season at City and elsewhere Amos before concluding that those results in the recent past ,involving the same players and manager that we currently still have were ,as Arsene claimed,just accidents. Regarding taking money off the Arabs and Putin's pal at Chelsea,well you can't have your cake and eat it ,if their money is tainted then Stan is receiving tainted money . Also with the highest ticket prices in football that Stan charges at the Emirates , and taking account of Wenger's wonga that he gets, I suggest that moralizing over other clubs financial dealings is just hypocrisy and another attempt to try and paper over the cracks.

  57. Ron

    Jul 26, 2014, 14:05 #54333

    Hi Amos - Absolutely. Not knocking us re attraction. For me, we might not pay as much but the entire aura, feel, tradition of the Club exceeds any other Club here bar none, though obviously United is a fantastic place to be and have such rich traditions too. Its just that so many people seem to hold a view that we can hold up a viable and better attraction than do the big Sp 2. Why they hold on to such unrealism beats me. Nothing wrong with accepting we are what we are as i see it.We re still a great Club.

  58. observer

    Jul 26, 2014, 14:05 #54332

    Post 57523 is for Amos

  59. observer

    Jul 26, 2014, 13:45 #54331

    I don't, but it mostly is, and mostly of €500m+ seems rather a lot. And I'm afraid 'A precursor to a winning club has to be one that's well run financially' is always likely to fall on deaf ears when the financial management and dealings of the club that have just won the world's biggest club prize 'maybe aren't a model to crow too much about'. Depends how you define winning I guess. The BSM as you know have repeatly stated that they are not anti the manager, so much so that one committee member felt compelled to resign in order to continue his whinging elsewhere, but I agree you won't find too many malcontents amongst the tourists savouring the Emirates matchday customer experience these days, they're all in the pub insignificantly making some noise about our small squad (there you go, I've teed you up for your disingenuous hat-trick).

  60. Amos

    Jul 26, 2014, 13:00 #54330

    We certainly conceded a few away to the top sides last season jeff - though that was also true for a number of other teams but 'humiliating trouncings that we are receiving in the Prem at away games off topsides EVERY season' ???? There's only one other season in the so called trophy drought where you can fairly claim we've been trounced away, and then in just the one game, to a top side. Peter, Mike and Charlie don't need to find reasons for this they just need to retain a sense of proportion. Arsenal haven't taken much off Abramovich over the years so no need for a moral compass there though they have indeed taken money from Mansour though I think it's clear that we'd have much preferred that football had woken up earlier to the dangers of such distortions. Though perhaps Arsenal were just doing their best to accommodate your view that they had to do their best to operate within the financial/football world they were in?

  61. Westlower

    Jul 26, 2014, 12:57 #54329

    @Smith, I sympathise with your frustration at losing one of our own in Jenks but after losing Sagna we could ill afford to have two young inexperienced RB's (both 21) in Aurier & Jenks. Debuchy at 29 next week will give us much needed experience. Calum Chambers is seen as a possible future centre half and will probably be developed along those lines.

  62. jeff wright

    Jul 26, 2014, 12:37 #54328

    It's certainly more of a transient game now days Ron with the players agents holding all the aces . My view is though that we have to do our best to operate within the financial /football world that we are in . I think that we could and should have done better and nothing regarding the influences of top European Clubs can excuse the humiliating trouncings that we are receiving in the Prem at away games off topsides every season . No doubt Peter ,Mike and Charlie can find reasons for this that make sense to them,but they are not fooling anyone except themselves. Deja vu the silly moralistic claims they make regarding Wenger and the current regime at AFC against the Arabs and Russians . Taking muti-millions from these scoundrels is okay though,as Ivan once candidly admitted when asked about it . Not much to get moralistic about really then is there?

  63. Amos

    Jul 26, 2014, 12:35 #54327

    It's obviously true that there're are still clubs with greater resources than Arsenal Ron. That's pretty much always been the case and certainly in the case of the big two in Spain, who are allowed to negotiate TV rights independently, that's going to remain true for sometime. However, they are finding that their policy of making a big marquee signing each season, especially with the needs of FFP and Uefa squad restrictions, means that they have to sell very good players every year. Hence we've been able to buy Sanchez, just as we did with Ozil the season before, knowing that we have them for at least 3 years if we want under current player contract laws. Maybe longer if they choose to extend in that time. Players are more mobile but Arsenal are one of the few clubs that can offer relative security along with the belief that CL participation is always possible. You're right to point out the transient nature of top players but Arsenal is not without its attractions as well.

  64. Ron

    Jul 26, 2014, 12:08 #54326

    Jeff - Alas, buying and/or keeping truly top marque footballers is not within the Arsenals capability now. Such as Sanchez is passing through for eg. If his career in the PL blossoms, he ll be gone in 2 seasons time tops. Utd struggle to hold players of that level now and City even will struggle to hold theirs, such as Aguero in the face of the big two in Spain wanting them. Chelsea will as well. Fact is, the very top players don't want the kick, rush and hoof it grind that the PL is, whatever they're paid and playing and living in Spain (and Italy when their game is at its peak) is far more desirable than living here for guys with their wealth.

  65. Amos

    Jul 26, 2014, 11:56 #54325

    I'd always thought it was those that relied on benefit hand outs, the dependence on someone else paying their way for them, that led the less interesting lives but I guess that's as much of a generalisation as those that show an interest in football finance leading boring lives. Kroenke and Wenger, whose interest in football finance is clear enough, certainly seem to lead more interesting lives than your average benefit junkie. As for whether the new stadium is allowing us to recruit more top players and pay top wages the not oft repeated enough statistic that spending since Kroenke took control will, by the time this transfer window has ended, be at least as much as in the previous 11 seasons combined suggests the claim is justified. Seeing as approval ratings in online gooner surveys and others suggest that Peter, Mike, Charlie et cetera are among a clear majority content to various degrees to live in your imagined 'Arsene' world then if it exists at all it would appear those outside it (who are the only ones who do imagine it exists) are the ones out of step with the real world.

  66. Unchives

    Jul 26, 2014, 11:52 #54324

    @Jeff Wright - the wages during the "Highbury Successful years" were £67 million annually and that was for top quality players such as Henry, Vieira etc. The wages are now £167 million per year for lower quality. Thats player wage inflation for you, you cant blame the manager or club for that, it could not be anticipated. Citeh, Chelski & Manure pay up to 40% more. Whilst we have a healthy cash sum it cannot sustain both transfer fees and 4 year wages for multiple signings.

  67. jeff wright

    Jul 26, 2014, 11:33 #54323

    Some clubs such as Real Madrid can afford to carry debt for various reasons huge future revenues. are one that can be used to borrow against These clubs are not dependent on showing annual profits or maintaining share prices for shareholders. Would the majority of supporters at AFC really be that bothered if the greedy money men departed and some other type decided to spend multi-millions on chasing trophies rather than profits? Ayone who is more interested in the finaces of football clubs rather than the football side must lead a boring life. Anyway, the new stadium was supposed to have allowed us to take on the big boys in England and Europe by providing more money to buy top players with and to pay their wages. The snake oil salesman was even claiming last summer that this was a reality . The reality is that he was talking bull**** as usual,because the highest paid person at Arsenal is Monsieur Wenger and he only scores in Paris and on the beach at the coca cabana.To attract or keep the top players such as RVP or Suarez, you have to pay the going rate ,if not then you make do with the Giroud's and Sanago's of this world. Wenger's wage folly results in average players getting paid more than they would get elsewhere and top ones less. This wage policy produces obvious consequences that leaves us always short of a few better players than we should have with our 160m wage bill .Peter,Mike and Charlie etc, get rather irked when these facts are pointed out because in their little Arsene world in which they fester everything is wonderful and anyone who says otherwise must be a spud! You couldn't make it up.

  68. smithy

    Jul 26, 2014, 11:24 #54322

    -------------I take on board everyones comments and will support debuchey while he is a Arsenal player, but think it is a shame jenks is being forced out before the likes of Monreal and diaby!

  69. Ron

    Jul 26, 2014, 10:39 #54321

    Sentiment has its place Smithy, but sorry, Jenkinson isnt good enough for the top level. Hes a tryer, hes gutsy and he s a Gooner but if you want the Coach to act in a way that befits a top Club, dispensing with such as CJ is whats needed. He' ll still have a great career. You cant have it all ways i.e. slaking Wenger off for not bringing in better players while similarly slaking him when he moves on the ones that aren't upon to the mark. What you can slake him off for if you want too, is the time its taken to shift a fair number of other less than mediocre performers who are still there stinking the Club out.

  70. Amos

    Jul 26, 2014, 10:38 #54320

    Bard. Well I assumed that in describing the squad as 'small' you weren't referring to height so my confusion as to whether you were referring to numbers is understandable. The squad of players over 21 hasn't always added up to 25 - it has frequently been less. Gnabry wasn't and isn't included in the squad restriction rules and won't be until he reaches the age of 21. Of course it would be great if the whole squad could only comprise players who would only be first pick but the reality is that some back up players will be inevitable in any squad financed from sustainable resources. However, player acquisitions over the last 3/4 years seem to have produced a squad of more mature players than we have had for some time.

  71. smithy

    Jul 26, 2014, 9:50 #54319

    I can only judge the new french rt back on his performances in the world cup- constantly getting caught out with a run in behind.He also nearly gave away 3 pens diving in.I would have prefered Aurier from I Coast- much better player.Aurier would have been my no 1 and jenks no 2. Now that hasn't happened I hope Chambers can displace debuchey.

  72. Westlower

    Jul 26, 2014, 9:35 #54318

    @Smithy It's harsh of you to rate Debuchy as mediocre. He has established himself ahead of Sagna in the French national team. Also has valuable WC, ECL & PL experience & with the impending arrival of Chambers the right back position is covered. Who would you have preferred instead?

  73. Bard

    Jul 26, 2014, 8:19 #54317

    Amos; Im not talking about the numbers. The squad we present will always equal 25 its who exactly makes up that 25. Gnarby was in that squad last year but was hardly trusted to play. Diaby may well be in this 25 but he's an irrelevance these days sadly. My comment refers to the lack of top quality players in the squad. hope that clears up the confusion

  74. smithy

    Jul 26, 2014, 8:12 #54316

    Sorry to see jenks being forced out the club- it is a shame to see someone who truly cares about the club for a mediocre newcastle rt back.As for chambers I haven't noticed him enough to comment but wish him all the best being an English rt back.

  75. Westlower

    Jul 26, 2014, 6:03 #54315

    Welcome Calum Chambers, goodbye Carl Jenkinson? Chambers has been 2/1 or shorter all summer with the bookies reckoning he would join AFC. It appears they've got this one right.

  76. Amos

    Jul 26, 2014, 1:09 #54314

    Observer. What makes you think that Real's debt is all player acquisition? They've spent bundles on their stadium over the years and have a project to spend another circa £250m to renovate it further. Even so they have revenues to sustain their present debt levels though there is an EU investigation into their finances and some discontent of their present financial management so maybe they aren't a model to crow too much about. I'm pretty sure that the BSM aren't likely to hold the greatest appeal for a pro-Wenger audience and also that the greater proportion of onlinegooner responses are domestic but even so you don't have to rely on surveys to test support. The attendances on match day seem to tell their own story to. There'll also be some malcontents but they've never really been that significant. Just noise really.

  77. observer

    Jul 25, 2014, 23:46 #54313

    Amos. Still not sure whether you view Arsenal stadium debt and Real Madrid's player acquisition debt in the same 'reasonable' light, but I do know that last years Gooner poll received votes from 66 different countries and if the BSM survey garnered anywhere near a similar worldwide response then given the obvious devotion with which the manager is followed beyond these shores, particularly in the Far East, then I'm not remotely surprised that his approval rating remains relatively constant, and I guess always will come what may. As you say, strange things these survey polls aren't they.

  78. Amos

    Jul 25, 2014, 22:57 #54312

    Observer. The period involved takes us back to 2002 when we were completing our 2nd double and before the unbeaten season, or if we're including this summers activities back to 1999. The fact is that Arsenal, as with any self sustained club has always acted with restraint and have always avoided unreasonable debt. The stats I have given are for gross spending as that's a more realistic measure but if you really wanted to focus on net sales to include player sales then prior to this summer our net spending in the 3 seasons since Kroenke took control is as much as the previous 9 seasons combined and paints an even more positive picture. It's reasonable to assume that contentment levels would be less favourable had we not won the cup but then I guess if Thierry had finished the chance in the CL final we'd have lived on the oxygen of being CL winners for a while too. The curious thing about levels of contentment though is that the results of onlinegooner surveys going back 3 years show that broad support for the management has been reasonably consistently in his favour. In fact if you go back to the report on Part 2 of the survey you'll see my reference (post 57309)to a much larger survey carried out by BSM taken prior to the Cup final which showed that support would still have been something like 2 to 1 in favour. It seems, if anything, it's the level of discontent that gets exaggerated.

  79. Hal

    Jul 25, 2014, 22:53 #54311

    Hi Amos. You must be my update.

  80. observer

    Jul 25, 2014, 22:36 #54310

    Amos. As you're comparing Arsenal with Arsenal including a universally acknowledged period of enforced restraint at the beginning of the timescale, your oft-repeated stats mean little, and presumably include contracts that can be and often are terminated prematurely due to player sales. And I'm sure looking at the survey results you agree that it would have just taken Ramsey to scuff his half-chance at Wembley for contentment levels to be significantly lower.

  81. Amos

    Jul 25, 2014, 22:02 #54309

    Observer. Well clearly I've agreed that Arsenal are a club that has incurred reasonable debt. At what point would our debt levels stop being reasonable I wonder? I don't know how you are measuring ambition but if spending levels play a role, as I suspect they must, then the fact that, not including this summer, we've spent as much in the previous 3 seasons as in the previous 8 seasons combined should reflect positively on that ambition scale. As this summer is already set to extend that to spending in the 4 seasons since Kroenke took full control being as much as in the previous 11 seasons combined then maybe the level of contentment with the running of the club is understandable.

  82. observer

    Jul 25, 2014, 21:22 #54308

    Amos. Well it IS about what you believe as that is exactly what I was referring to but in true parliamentary style you're perfectly entitled to refrain from a direct response if it would lead to cries of 'hypocrite' in future debates. I'm sure many of the 89% voted shortly after we'd won our first trophy in 8 years, but considering our stadium debt still has 17 years to run I guess we shouldn't expect too much ambition for another generation or so. That's fine though for some.

  83. Fred

    Jul 25, 2014, 20:35 #54307

    On the point of the podcast it should be recorded every monday and put out on tuesday.Sometimes listening to it is like reading a month old newspaper.As for the fans groups too many are in the back pocket of Gazidis.Look how easy the board were able to to get away with the 3% rise.And the plan of Puma to bring out 3 new kits every season

  84. Amos

    Jul 25, 2014, 20:34 #54306

    Observer. It's not really about what I believe as according to the survey results above 89% believe Arsenal are a well run club. It's the other 11% that are apparently out of step! As for incurring reasonable debt that seems to be precisely what Arsenal has done. It's avoiding unreasonable debt that seems to frustrate some.

  85. observer

    Jul 25, 2014, 20:25 #54305

    Amos. Sorry I forgot the new stadium that Real have built in the last few years! It would be great though if you believed that a 'financially well run' club was one that incurred reasonable debt in order to win trophies, we'd all get on so much better!

  86. jeff wright

    Jul 25, 2014, 20:09 #54304

    Boots, it will take more than that potion to get me excited about Arsene,Stan and Ivan's plans...(puts hand over mouth to stifle a y... and I don't even want to think about our old Etonian chairman 'Raffles' Keswick 'everything is going well with our economic plans'... perhaps George Osborne could be persuaded to take over as CEO he is even better at screwing money out of folk and drumming up dodgy fiscal figures than Ivan is ... who by losing Nike and replacing them with Puma acted like an alchemist claiming credit for having turned gold into scrap metal. You couldn't make it up.

  87. jjetplane

    Jul 25, 2014, 19:58 #54303

    I just want to know who is THE MAN at Arsene HQ. From here it looks like a coup or a promotion for Amos and Westie has gone upstairs? (westclouds) and old BAdDIE on gardening leave? Just asking ..... Lawd knows what RM want with Ramsay at the moment. Other sources/sauces say he is a BaRCA man. I reckon Bayern meself but he will peel off the 80m plus euros? If Diaby is back (no sniggering at the back please) then Stan should have enough dough for another franchise. A sockkka team perhaps! topsy bleedin turvy and the FA still has to be defended ...... It's been a great week and the weekend is just well .... full of witches! ....

  88. boots the chemist

    Jul 25, 2014, 19:45 #54302

    jeff wright, i enjoy your posts and concur with most of your views, but can I recommend you try Berrocca, its a vitamin pick me up and may help with that constant yawn.

  89. Gazza

    Jul 25, 2014, 18:35 #54301

    REDaction with 47% is the best group ! AISA has 54% how that work out then ? the problem is there is too many groups who all suck up to Arsenal one even marched against the 2nd biggest shareholder

  90. DW Thomas

    Jul 25, 2014, 17:49 #54300

    Great points Bard. You and I have very similar view points on things. I agree it's like we build up excuses for failure rather than the squad! Then Arsene has ready made bs comments to belittle those critical voices that demand he and the club do more.

  91. jeff wright

    Jul 25, 2014, 17:31 #54298

    It's all a question again of are our resources THAT ARE AVAILABLE being put to the best use. Rather than an insufficient amount of them. Wenger is an old manager living in the comfort zone again( yawn) and already constantly in interviews pointing out that he won the FAC last season and insinuating that this promises more trophy to come. Same old though regarding strengthening the thin squad to make this more likely

  92. Amos

    Jul 25, 2014, 17:29 #54297

    Bard. I'm not sure where the idea that we have a small squad comes from. At present, with only one keeper we're already at the maximum of 25 players over the age of 21. We've got to shift someone out, either permanently or on loan, in order to bring Ospina in. Whatever the beef about our present squad it's not small.

  93. Amos

    Jul 25, 2014, 17:19 #54296

    Observer. I'm not sure what point you're making? Arsenal are not debt free either and only have little more than half the annual revenues Real has.

  94. Bard

    Jul 25, 2014, 17:12 #54295

    DWThomas; There is an inherent problem in signing good players or at least buying enough of them to mount a serious challenge and that is the expectations increase. while we are always light several players then we can appear to overachieve. We also have that familiar Arsenal excuse of injuries. Having a small squad means that the players get overused and are more likely to get injured. Its shaping up to be more of the same

  95. Smithy

    Jul 25, 2014, 17:02 #54294

    -I must admit it worried me when he came out with the brand new player crap about diaby and how he will be the solution to ct mid and we need not buy anyone.please buy the spine quickly- our squad isn't good enough- gk,ct def,cent mid,spare striker!

  96. observer

    Jul 25, 2014, 16:35 #54293

    Amos. No of course Real Madrid have no debt!

  97. Westlower

    Jul 25, 2014, 16:05 #54292

    @Lord Froth, Nothing wrong with old farts! Read and learn from the wise elders of the Arsenal tribe.

  98. Amos

    Jul 25, 2014, 15:32 #54291

    Don't despair DW Thomas! No PL club has won a trophy more recently than we have! A precursor to a winning club has to be one that's well run financially. If you look at the part of this survey on transfers, and even more if you look at past surveys, you'll see that supporters generally have absolutely no idea what it would take to 'make this team complete' flip-flopping in their preferences as they do around whoever is the current back page favourite 'flavour of the month player'.

  99. Lord Froth

    Jul 25, 2014, 15:19 #54290

    Well done to all that contribute to the Gooner magazine and website. I've enjoyed reading it for years. Obviously sometimes more than others but that's to do with what's going on at the club than the quality of the fanzine. I hope you manage to keep printing it and I for one will keep reading it. I always enjoy reading other Gooner's views. Even some of the old farts that post in these comments sections. lol.

  100. DW Thomas

    Jul 25, 2014, 15:11 #54289

    Agree Amos. That same discrepancy was glaring! The club is well run financially, but fails miserably in what should be its main goal...winning! Wenger has yet to make any more much needed buys. He has a real chance AGAIN to make this team complete. Will he, won't he? I find it tiresome mostly, uninteresting. I used to soak up Arsenal news, good or bad. As my trust in Wenger eroded, I also awakened to how false the club can be. I still find joy in the football. Sad thing is my expectations have dropped like an anchor. My football joy will always be there. The "miracle" I hope for is a sustained title and CL challenge where we DON'T flop out by poor showings and bad individual errors. That would renew my faith.

  101. WENGER

    Jul 25, 2014, 13:26 #54288

    HES STARTED MOANING ALREADY WHICH IS NOT A GOOD SIGN, MEANS THAT TRANSFERS ARE SLIPPING THRU HIS FINGERS AND HES PANICING

  102. JM - London

    Jul 25, 2014, 12:40 #54286

    Nice one, always enjoy taking part and reading the results of the annual survey.

  103. Amos

    Jul 25, 2014, 10:57 #54281

    Strange things survey polls aren't they. You can ask similar questions in different ways and get seemingly contradictory answers. 89% say the club is well run, half of them 'very well run' yet individual ratings of key personalities don't quite match that (though they're better supported than I'd imagined!). Of all the suggestions of how to improve on this 89% well run rating the most laughable has to be the idea that Tony Adams could contribute anything useful to the running of the board. If you're going to make a token, ornamental and nostalgically sentimental appointment to the board then it must be possible to find an ex-player with a better managerial or commercial skill set than Adams. As for FFP the jury's still out to overuse the cliché but FFP has always been about its cumulative effect. It's a ball and chain rather than a guillotine so it'll take another 2 or 3 years of dragging the thing around before it starts to level the field a little more.