Why wouldn’t you let an Arsène Wenger team take your dog for a walk?

Online Ed: Sadly, this is no joke



Why wouldn’t you let an Arsène Wenger team take your dog for a walk?


It’s an old gag, and certainly one I have used before, probably when Newcastle came back from 4-0 down, but it bears repeating. I doubt many Arsenal fans will be laughing at the ‘Because they can’t keep hold of a lead’ punchline this morning.

Arsenal’s good fortune is that, for once, this was actually a game they could afford to collapse in. Their chances of finishing first in the group were always marginal after defeat in Dortmund and now, almost impossible. The only real danger to their making the last 16 is that they lose both their remaining fixtures and Dortmund, having secured top place in the group, play a second string at home to Anderlecht on the final matchday and the Belgians win (having defeated Galatasaray at home before that). You can get 40/1 on Anderlecht qualifying from the group. Worth a punt?

Although it was a comfortable evening for the first hour of the match, in truth, Anderlecht did pose some danger on the break, prevented from scoring by some last ditch tackles. So the warning signs were there. At 3-0 up, the home side could have opted for safety first, and sacrificed their expansive game. However, they didn’t, and Calum Chambers was continually exposed at right back by the quality of Anderlecht’s tricky number 18 Acheampong. This wasn’t addressed either on the field or from the bench, and although the Belgian side’s first goal was offside, the assist came from that flank. It gave the visitors encouragement and they went for it with, frankly, deserved reward. 3-0 was not a true reflection of the first hour of the game. In theory, Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain was the cover for Chambers, but positionally, the team were all at sea, with the number 15 often in the centre when Anderlecht had the ball.

I know Arsene Wenger likes fluidity in his teams, but once the ball is lost, there does not seem to be much in the way of organization, and it has sometimes proved costly. Somehow, Arsenal need to get back to basics.

With Arteta off, Arsenal seemed to fall to pieces. More mystifying was the removal of Danny Welbeck instead of Santi Cazorla. Welbeck can both defend at set pieces and provide pace on the break. Cazorla is simply off form and contributing little to the cause. Aaron Ramsey tried manfully, but his form too, is something of a mystery, and this a player who does not have the excuse of a World Cup last summer.

The utilization of Nacho Monreal at centre back was exposed as a makeshift idea that hasn’t really worked out, as he was unable to deal with the strength of his opponent when he conceded the penalty that led to the second. Was their an argument to start Chambers – who I have been informed was bought more as a third centre back rather than a deputy for Debuchy – alongside Mertesacker with Hector Bellerin at right back? Hindsight is of course a wonderful thing, but Bellerin is a natural right back and Monreal certainly isn’t a natural in the middle.

As for the equalizer, Mertesacker was beaten to the ball. The consequence of going into the campaign with only two established centre backs is that if either is displaying bad form, you can’t drop them. Arsène, however, knows best, always remember. He told an old friend in the summer that ‘I need a centre back’, with the hope he might suggest one, rather than utilise his scouting system. You have to wonder what the point of the latter is.

Arsenal have not given away a lead in such amateur hour fashion for three years. Last season, certainly, they developed a very good habit of holding on to leads once established. However, something has changed and now we are seeing once again the brittle Arsenal of old. To quote the manager, “Mental strength”? Mikel Arteta was more accurate when he said after the game – “It’s not good enough”. Spot on. But what do you do to change it?

The reality is this has happened a little too often, and the common thread in all the past collapses is the manager’s inability to read a game and make changes during the match from the dugout, which ensure the result is achieved. That is why Arsene Wenger, a good developer of players who have yet to reach their peak, is no tactician, and why he will never outwit better managers. He lets the players work it out for themselves, and in the years when he was winning trophies, enjoyed enough experience on the field so that the players could indeed sort it out themselves without relying on any instruction from the sidelines. Project youth dismantled that and the club have never really re-acquired the winning mentality from the years at Highbury. It now needs a fresh approach and a new face on the bench to organize, focus and motivate a group of players that, with two or three additions, should be good enough to win a major title. Let’s stare at the cold hard facts. 16 consecutive shots at the Champions League. How many of those have ended in success? And only twice in that time have they reached the last four. There is no mitigation for that.

A couple of random points from last night. Alexis wanted to take the penalty that Arteta converted and seemed the have the hump until he scored his wonder volley from the free-kick rebound. He wants to be the star a la Cristianio Ronaldo, and given Arteta is not going to top the goalscoring charts, I think there is nothing wrong with allowing Alexis to add to his own tally from the spot. Still, Arteta converted the spot kick, so fair play to the captain.

The 1970 Fairs Cup winning team were in the directors box. However, when their presence was announced on the big screen just before kick off, a photo from the year was shown – but no panning of the camera to the guys today? And to boot, why not give them a lap of honour at half time? I wonder what Frank McLintock and the boys made of the last half an hour…

Nothing’s changed in the bigger picture. Arsenal proved last night why they are not equipped for another trophy winning season, unless they are very fortunate in the FA Cup draw. The manager cannot address situations on the field during the course of play, and failed to address the weaknesses in the squad during the summer. The chickens came home to roost against Anderlecht, and the manager can thank his lucky stars that his team somehow pulled off a win in Brussels, as right now, their prospects of progression would be looking decidedly dodgy without that.

Current group leaders that Arsenal could face in the last 16 are as follows… Atletico Madrid, Real Madrid, Bayer Leverkusen, Bayern Munich, Paris St Germain, Porto. Arsene will be hoping that in the words of the Daft Punk hit, he gets lucky in the 15th December draw, assuming his team don’t blow second place as effectively as they did three points last night.

I am now on Twitter@KevinWhitcher01.

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A sequel to Arsènal – The Making of a Modern Superclub and entitled Arsène and Arsenal The Quest to Rediscover Past Glories has been written by myself and co-author Alex Fynn. It takes up the story of the club from the last update of the previous book, and can be bought online here. Use the promo code ‘Gooner’ to get 10% off the publisher’s price of £8.99.


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comments

  1. jjetplane

    Nov 07, 2014, 20:27 #60900

    Cheers MG and Sam and Koeman are showing a lot of clubs what good honest direct football is all about. Meet a few Saints fans on my journeys and they are such a happy bunch and great supporters. At one time was hanging out with a bunch of Saints/Celtic lads - boss time. One of my other teams I have followed are up tonight Exeter. Have not even checked a score yet - been cooking for the last three hours! Happy days MG!

  2. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 07, 2014, 17:09 #60896

    jj, a couple of great shouts it would be great to see a couple of others break through, (I wonder who's fault that would be then) fat sam seems to be onto something with this Sakho bloke £4 mil from French club metz a typical wenger buy if ever there was one how did OGL let that one fly over his cuckoos nest. Ron they keep their push up bra's until they get back to their mansions.

  3. jjetplane

    Nov 07, 2014, 15:36 #60893

    Yep and Wenger the way he talks now (when he can be bothered) sounds like a banker/politician on some elongated gardening leave. He is post-arrogant and 'players' like Arteta and BFG are doing it on the pitch. It's a 'what do we have to prove to anyone' mentality. Can well imagine the supporters now and it was not long ago I was at a conference match and a bunch of kids did a conga for the second half and it was hilarious in a lovely way. A vision like that makes me think of Arsenal the way I think of the CIA - damaging in all the wrong ways and to all the wrong people.

  4. Ron

    Nov 07, 2014, 15:22 #60892

    JJ - its been a smug Club for years in my view. Choc full of players who've believed their own hype yet who aren't that good in the main. Has it flowed down from the Coach? I think yes, but its the personalities too. More concerned with looking good for the cameras than getting doen to winning football matches. These latest kits make me smile. The tight tops? They look like a load of girls and only need some push up bras to look the part! Have to say as well that many of our fans are as smug, take a superior attitude to other teams for some strange reason. Sanchez is typical SA player and does graft as you say. Its hard to see him staying very long in truth. He seems to have influenced Chamberlain quite well but the others? They seem happy to let him get on with it to me. The Clubs riven with too much ' we re Arsenal, step aside' attitude. Thats ok if they're any good and the other lot buy it. Not many do now. The lesser teams see Arsenal as points to be had and why shouldn't they. Your dirty river analogy hits the spot for me mate.It needs purging and ridding and so do those happy to swim in it.

  5. jjetplane

    Nov 07, 2014, 15:03 #60890

    RON listening to the match report for Everton last night you could feel a team getting on with it in Europe and striving to their best. I contrast it with the undoubted smugness (a pathological one) that runs like a weak dirty river through Arsenal at the moment. Sanchez is the only diamond at this moment because he is a true worker and he is doing his best to give Arsenal a credible season but how much more can he take of the freeloading mentality that surrounds him on every side. I reckon he hates the present captain already. The captain who only steps up when the pressure is absent, unseen when the going gets tough. Reckon Everton will come good in the next few matches and may still suprise a few people. We talk of Liverpool and United as the big contentions but even the ghastly spuds are enjoying Europa football and will give them more confidence in the PL. Arsenal just better be ready to defend their precious berth from all comers and the way Citeh are (not) playing it maybe them who are in for third or fourth. Because I am a fan of football I am hoping West Ham and Southampton somehow do a Liverpool and shake the top into a share diving catastrophe for all 'the snouts in the swill.' Is it OK on here to say that the level of Arsenal phone ins on radio has improved now there is a marked absence of AKBs phoning up. If ever there was a time when a football manager (Wenger) was no longer wanted, this is it. But like the neo con snake that is keeping him there, popularity only means you are making others happy. Has anyone on here thought that has been Wenger's agenda for the last decade. It's politics, it's money, but it ain't ****ing football. Even with the Ronnies and the Messis of the world, you always get that last one. Give me the ****ing ball! Only one bloke in Holloway saying that and he is from Chile. One wicked brother.

  6. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 07, 2014, 11:37 #60880

    Ron 64158 DWT, wouldn't it be great to be able to really believe again, sadly it's just not going to happen as long as we have this old man at the helm.

  7. Charlie George Orwell

    Nov 07, 2014, 10:09 #60875

    Ron - quite right. History decides on who were the good and the great. Think Wenger will always be known as a good rather than a great manager - and even then there will be will comments along the lines of 'Good to begin with, but...'

  8. Ron

    Nov 07, 2014, 9:51 #60872

    Morning Westie - maybe so mate but the reports of Smalling re surfacing are worrying. I d sooner have Phil Senderos back than him and i mean that. That game as a kid at Liverpool i mentioned, it was 69. Managed to dig it up on google. Jimmy Robertson scored! Cant say that's a name that ive had cause to recollect since. Yes, at that time we weren't scoring heavily but we had become very tight at the back by then after the wengerite type defending shambles of the period 63-67 ish. Ill always have the view of all of the top coaches that great teams are built from the back. Offensive coaches like Clough Revie Paisley Shankly Busby of yesteryear and Fergie and Mourinho and Co latterly always maintained that view and its why in my view Wenger will never be spoken of in such hallowed terms as they.

  9. Westlower

    Nov 07, 2014, 9:25 #60870

    @Ron I'm a great believer in goal ratio (For/Against) telling the true state of a team. The season you mentioned 68/69, AFC had a goal ratio of 56:27 or 2/1. The season before it was 60:56 or 1.07. It dipped back again in 69/70 51:49 or 1.04. Maybe it was a reaction to the Swindon loss or being involved all the way through the Fairs Cup final which took in 12 games. Impressive goal ratio followed in 70/71 with 71:29 or 2.4. Generally speaking every winner of the League needs at least a 2/1 goal ration, 3/1 more or less guarantees the title. At present I find it hard to judge the strength of the current Arsenal side as we never seem able to field a settled first eleven. Our current goal ratio is 1.6 compared to CFC 2.6, Southampton 4.2 (unsustainable), Man C 2.1, Man U 1.1, Liverpool 1, TH 0.9. In 2012/13 AFC had a goal ratio of 1.9; 2013/14 1.6 but a sustained FA Cup run. My instincts tell me we'll improve greatly in the New Year, dependent on at least 2 new signings in Jan & long term injured players returning.

  10. Ron

    Nov 07, 2014, 7:48 #60866

    DW - Nice post. Play till you can play no longer mate. I played regularly till i was 51 and still now do some 5 and 7 a side when it suits! We love it. I think AFC needs to take a long look at itself and be honest with itself as i was trying to say to badarse in earlier posts. Theyve had so many years now in that CL, a tourny in which they are clearly out of their depth. Maybe, if they dont want to push to raise their own bar, a few years re educating the Club in the Europa league wd do them good perversely? Its a tourny we re equipped to excel in.Maybe win it. Enjoy winning it and give us a real platform to move higher into the CL again later? These years of being CL fodder are making money admittedly but sportingly its debilitating to the Club i believe. At some point footballing achievement has to be given precedence or the Club risks losing what credibility it has in the eyes of those who matter, the fans and particularly the potential young fans of the future. I know a lot of Everton fans and they are loving their time back in europe. No snobbery about it and Martinez has the club fired up for it and sees it as the learning curve for maybe CL tilts in the future. OK they might not make it. Arsenal are in a CL torpor though. Is that enjoyable? It isnt at all in my view.The Club just sees the bottom line though and being in it creates an illusion of being a 'big' Club. If that's where they are with it, for me, its doesn't interest me. Its a sad outlook and one which makes the Club seem as stale as it is. As we get older we look at football without the rose tinted glasses as fans and we can express honest views about the Club that when yr younger we conceal and deny. Arsenal need to do the same because this recipe of groundhog day every year fools no one but themselves.

  11. Boy Gooner

    Nov 07, 2014, 5:48 #60865

    Play, Stop, Repeat.... Play, Stop, Repeat.... Its becoming a joke now. The same thing happens in every game and Wenger makes that ridiculous face all the time. He is tactically inept to continue as a manager.

  12. A Cornish Gooner

    Nov 07, 2014, 1:17 #60864

    The end of last season saw the end of the 1st Decadal Cusp. We were then on the cusp of the 2nd Decadal Cusp. We have now entered the 2nd Decadal Cusp. In ten years time we will be on the cusp of the 3rd Decadal Cusp. Hope that explains everything.

  13. DW Thomas

    Nov 07, 2014, 0:32 #60863

    The WC hangover is only another excuse for me. All top teams must deal with it. So it all evens out anyway. Plus take Wilshere, hardly played, Ramsey, didn't go, Arteta, never been, and they have all been crocked and not playing too badly. Maybe there will be more injuries due to it, but again all good teams must deal,with it. Ron and Baddie, good to see you 2 conversing again. Have to say I enjoy reading good posts with good arguments more than posting myself. But, my passion gets the best of me and my desire for the club to,be and achieve more. Good article on ESPN about Arsenal being a frustrating team to follow. What did the club expect after a huge stadium move, and Invincible season, and an almost CL trophy? Wasn't it much more? Yet, now it's all about the Benjamin's as they say. Sad. Still watching Sanchez in action, or any of the lads on their day is still fun. It just seems to happen so rarely with so many piss poor results these past several seasons,to steal the joy of any success. I still play Sunday mornings and enjoy the competition. Playing the game has always filled me with more joy than watching, but as I age that's changing a little. Now my oldest is just about to finish his first season. What fun that has been, and he is not the best on his team. I do expect he try hard and touch the ball as often as he can in games. Anyway, I think my point is Arsenal used to be a huge joy for. I just want that back..to feel like we are not being taken for mugs. Maybe if we demanded more from the club and team that so called "cusp" would be overcome and we would compete with the big boys.

  14. Highbury Boy

    Nov 06, 2014, 23:40 #60862

    @ Westie. This is a first. I agree with you. In over 60 years of watching Arsenal the best week ever was being at WHL to see us win the League on the Monday and being at Wembley 5 days later to see us beat Liverpool to do the Double.

  15. BADARSE

    Nov 06, 2014, 21:38 #60857

    jeff, Arsene would be proud of the way you and Exeter celebrate a perceived victory, a little like the one against Anderlecht Tuesday, don't you think? Time for another cusp of tea, methinks.

  16. Hiccup

    Nov 06, 2014, 21:26 #60855

    Fair enough bard. You can obviously sense Baddie is on the cusp of another breakdown.

  17. Ron

    Nov 06, 2014, 21:08 #60853

    Westie - Seconded mate! Bang on the button. Ill tell you the time when i and dad really thought something was happening for us though. It was a game at Anfield and we drew 1-1. Im sure it was a midweek. I was about 15 and just ready to leave school. 1969 ish. Dad had to take his Coach up to Southport and him, his mate and me went to the game. We should have won. Amazing. For years before then it was 3,4 and 5 - 0 bad jobs at Anfield every season as you would well know. The Club that produced the 71 lads started to believe around that time ive always thought. We still lost to Swindon of course that year but that was just freakishness. League form was becoming very resolute by 69 wasnt it.

  18. jeff wright

    Nov 06, 2014, 20:58 #60852

    Bard,Jamie is obviously very confused he once posted that we have a defence second to none. As for Badarse's perception of on the cusp and it's relevance to distance this is due to his study of the Wenger doctrine of Illusionism in which our eternal spiritual self is more real than anything we perceive in this physical realm, and has a divine connection to Arsene Wenger's preaching - therefore mere distance and facts are made irrelevant for him and the other faithful who follow the true path that the master preaches. The views of the dark moaners according to Wenger Illusionism must be disregarded as being hearsay . Jamie believes in Wenger Illusionism as well - he also believes that everyone else should do so . Because you know that it makes sense.

  19. Westlower

    Nov 06, 2014, 20:44 #60849

    I was talking to a very passionate 20+ year old Gooner who was annoyed we couldn't beat Leicester. Never easy to beat Leicester said I, even a wonderful Bergkamp hat-trick wasn't enough in the 3-3 game. The 'lad' couldn't recall that game, suddenly I realised more summers had passed than I care for. Ron was spot on about the mental & physical toughness of the 70/71 team. They would run through bricks walls if necessary. To win the title at the Lane against a very good TH team was no mean feat. To then go on to Wembley & beat Liverpool 5 days later was as good as it gets. Nothing in my 54 years of watching Arsenal can top that magical week.

  20. Ron

    Nov 06, 2014, 20:34 #60847

    Bard lad, it sounds like you need to do some serious grovelling to her mate ha. See if that works to get her back. It often can!

  21. Bard

    Nov 06, 2014, 20:27 #60846

    Jeff and Hiccup, go easy on this cusp business, Im worried Baddie will start throwing toys around. I think there are major misunderstandings over the use of cusp to denote being close to as in we are just off the shoulder of the big teams meaning we arent on the same planet. I think the problem is distance perception. For example I sleep next to my wife but in fact she lives 5 miles away, so next to has a totally different meaning. I think this is what Baddie meant. Incidentally Im on the cusp of losing it ifJamie writes another post saying we need to get behind the lads as the answer to Arsenals woes.

  22. jeff wright

    Nov 06, 2014, 20:15 #60844

    Hiccup , I think that Badarse has been doing a bit of astrology when Aries is on the cusp of Virgo the earth moves for him... a glance at Arsene's horror-scope warns him to be wary of meeting a small Portuguese man in April...

  23. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 06, 2014, 20:14 #60843

    Ron, it is sad that that impression is been given out and even sadder that it's believed, fans not knowing or wanting to know the history, like the guy probably in his thirties who asked me some years back who that was? as Terry Neill signed autographs outside the Emirates, when I told him he just went oh and was none the wiser. I often wondered would he have known George Graham.

  24. jjetplane

    Nov 06, 2014, 19:35 #60837

    Bloody kids hey! This straw man JAMIE Is he like The Wicker Man or more The Wenger Man? Hey hey hey .....

  25. Hiccup

    Nov 06, 2014, 19:28 #60836

    Jeff, you need to download the free Simon Rose Magical Ten Game app. I always use it to settle arguments. I've inputted all current data, and nowhere does it mention arsenal are on the cusp. What did come as a surprise, is that Leicester are in a relegation battle, and they'd better believe it!

  26. Ron

    Nov 06, 2014, 19:18 #60835

    MG - the names alone make the hairs of the neck stand up mate. It was a team that lost the odd game but nobody f----d with the lads of 71. The words tired, short and handbrakes didnt enter the arena and physicality desire and mental strength didnt get a mention, they were all givens and you knew it when you saw it. Another team could beat that team but they knew it would cost them in their own guts bruises class and lung power to do it. It occasionally needed fisticuffs to beat them too, more often than you might think. They played in a Division 1 where the top 8-10 teasm could all beat each other and the teams below were no slouches either, especially on their home grounds. It didnt matter, the class of 69 - 71 relished it. Ask Lazio!!Different era, different game but for me, Wenger has never got close to building a team like that one. He can take his 'invincibles' memories with him when he goes and rightly so, but that team of 71 would have run them close if not beat them. Speculative yes, but they did give us reason to have faith in them most weeks. As for todays feeble lot, Big Raddy and Ray Kennedy would both have a cigar on while the destroyed the 'BFB' and Koscheilny and wee geordie would alternate wings while he roasted these excuses for full backs we ve got today. The Club give the impression today that AFC s history started in 1996. Don't be having any of that bulls---e mate. Wenger has imbued a bit of silk and a bit of shine into the Clubs play, but we ve had better teams than any hes ever produced. I venture to say that GGs team of 91 is better in fact. Its open to all opinions of course, i accept that.

  27. JAMIE

    Nov 06, 2014, 19:09 #60833

    I wish some of you groaners would get off your 'cusps' and attempt to support the club instead of forever erecting straw men..

  28. jeff wright

    Nov 06, 2014, 18:53 #60832

    Hi Exeter,yes you did a good job, I couldn't resist though rubbing salt in the wounds of Baddies rather large ego !

  29. Exeter Gunner

    Nov 06, 2014, 18:29 #60831

    Hey Jeff, I've already done all that hard work for you! There was no need for us both to run around the track and trip Badarse up. I think we should go back to flavours of cusps. Badarse is a salt 'n' vinegar man. I'm cheese 'n' onion. You? As for Wenger, I nicked one of his crisps. He said it was caviar flavour, but it tasted like sausage.

  30. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 06, 2014, 18:17 #60830

    Westlower, would have loved to have seen that team in the flesh, and a lot of others, coming from where I'm from at the time I never got the chance that's why I love articles of that era so much, and yes if we had that team with their mind set in their prime now i think it's safe to say things would be different.

  31. jeff wright

    Nov 06, 2014, 18:06 #60828

    Badarse, here is what you originally said regarding 'Cusp' ,you have since moved the goal posts somewhat though regarding these comments! . .. "As you can only ever beat what is in front of you on any given day, so you can only win,(or fail to win) the title, in any given season, by finishing above the opposition in front of you. Leaving aside the hackneyed groans and moans of failure to buy, strengthen, the injuries, poor performances etc, we are still just on the cusp."..... You then go on to elaborate on this by asking who knows what might happen if this or that happens. No mention of we are only going to finish 3rd or 4th again. .Cusp is : A point of transition between two different states: An example being those on the cusp of success. those on the cusp of . So for us to be on the cusp of improving So for us to meet that criteria taking account of our previous league position we would have to finish 2nd or 1st. There is no sign what so ever though that we are on the cusp of doing that. That's why I asked you what we were on the cusp of. You prevaricated as is your wont in your reply and now claim that you meant we are in contention for 3rd or 4th place. As I pointed to you in my first post this is just the norm and not a sign that we are in a transition to 1st or 2nd place - so we are not on the cusp of anything in the Prem but fighting to maintain our usual spot in the top four pecking ordere. It could be argued that after finishing 3rd two seasons back that we are actually in decline rather than on the cusp of improving our league status. Finishing outside of the top 4 would certainly confirm that. 3RD OR 4TH would just be treading water.

  32. jjetplane

    Nov 06, 2014, 17:26 #60827

    And the last decade (a decade!) tells us frankly that Arsene FC are 'without cusp'. To all intents and purposes Wenger has no equals when we see his aims clearly. Being 4th (third loser) is the perfect corporate situation to be in. No great injection necessary and still they VIRTUALLY come their seats though for some they simply pushed a button on a pad when they were bored and have filed Arsenal in the gym subscription filed which will eventually have to be sorted/edited. That decision is on the cusp though the transition is of little consequence. Know what you mean RON it's ****ing boring!

  33. Ron

    Nov 06, 2014, 17:22 #60826

    Bard - great point about second homes/holiday homes etc. So so true. Many at the theatre of silence have Club level and Golds and Silvers and simply use them as a means to dangle under potential businesses noses to drum up work for themselves. The seats are often just empty for the greater number of games each season. I know 3 Chelsea fans and a QPR fan who are at Arsenal for at least 7/8 of the home games each season. They accompany an Arsenal fan of course and go along there as company for him. No interest in the result but like the Club level meals and hob nobbing with those in the boxes above them. Hear this mate - The one Chelsea fan was there v Burnley in the Club level seat down at the what's now the red action end somewhere and mentioned laughingly to me that he d read 40 pages of a book about Ann Boleyns trial and execution between kick off and whistle!!Thats the new Arsenal. The guy that owns the seats is far more important than you and me and gets all of the privileges. He ll be there at the Cup Final or the CL Final doing his best 'die hard Gooner' act if ever the miracle happened.

  34. Hiccup

    Nov 06, 2014, 17:18 #60825

    Don't know which side of cuspgate I sit on? If we are 9 points behind the leaders and on the cusp, then Leicester City, currently sitting in the relegation zone and 8 points behind us, by definition, must be on the cusp of CL qualification. I know we can't beat Leicester, but surely we're lapping them in a 1500m race? Just like we've been lapped by Chelsea. Actually, the way wenger leaves the squad threadbare, we get lapped in a 100m race.

  35. Exeter Gunner

    Nov 06, 2014, 17:08 #60823

    Badarse, you're resorting to questioning the precise fit of the analogy but more importantly, I see you're conceding it's a 'matter of perception' when previously you were 'insisting' we were on the cusp. Pedantry? Just thought I'd play the game with you for a bit.

  36. BADARSE

    Nov 06, 2014, 16:58 #60822

    Exeter, a 1500m race but the first two runners are two laps ahead? Is that supposed to be an accurate analogy with the two top teams and us? If so you are oddly using hyperbole, rather than an analogical argument. Last season we were seven points off a 'Double', this season not so impressive, but when you perceive you are on the cusp of something then anything is possible. So does that make me, you jeff correct or is it down to individual perceptions? Pedantry isn't necessarily a quality.

  37. Bard

    Nov 06, 2014, 16:56 #60821

    Exeter. the athletics analogy is a useful one. We all agree that we wont or cant win but we disagree about how far we are behind the winner. The Club and some posters think we are close and others like me think we are two laps behind and doing nothing very much to close that gap. The prize money for coming a distant 4th is good so why push on. As Ron and others have said, the crucial question is what are the clubs intentions? I would have thought that its pretty obvious that the club are telling porkies. I and many others buy into it every year thinking it will be different but thats the scam. there is a further argument well documented on here. Im guessing but most of the posters are fans of the old school , diehard Gooners but as the prices go up and up my guess is that they are bought by punters who see an Arsenal season ticket as a perk like holidays in the Seychelles and second homes in France. They pitch up now and again and dont care how much the season tickets cost or care much what the club is up to and how well they do. I know one or two people who have 2 or 3 season tickets and hardly ever go.This is the market the board wants to develop, the diehards can all go to hell.

  38. Ron

    Nov 06, 2014, 16:53 #60820

    Baddie - yr misreading my post fella. I don't have a problem with yr desires for the Club and im not criticising you for them. My own are that the Club could do better but wont as they don't want to, yet make out they do. Im not asking them to come clean and if you read my post you ll see i say they wont. They dont want to shatter the illusions of those whove been taken in by them.Im merely saying that if they did they would get some respect. The lies and spin suck, big time.Other smaller Clubs owners and coaches are often honest and theyre fans know the score, they know they ll never win titles and euro trophies. Their fans love a day turning over the big boys occasionally and just enjoy football for footballs sake. arsenal could choose to be honest and admit theyve reached a ceiling which they dont want to shatter as it costs too much. Yes, they may be a smaller Club as a result and may be perceived as such. For me, i would prefer that that to the present awful regime that runs on creating false illusions and so would many others.As to life being too short to make these points, yours might be. Mines full enough and enjoy chewing the fat about the Club and footie generally. Accepting everything lamely is ok of course. For me, i think organisations like AFC need to brought to account. You shdt accuse people of 'naivety' either. Many of us have done things, experienced things and worked in fields that you could only dream about in which the privilege of being 'naive' would have been a wonderful and enjoyable thing. Business and the corporate world is one i know enough of thank you very much. I sincerely wish i did still have a bit of naivety to be perfectly frank with you baddie!

  39. Exeter Gunner

    Nov 06, 2014, 16:33 #60817

    No, Badarse, you're still wrong. You were trying to insist that AFC are objectively at the point of transition - on the cusp. Jeff was saying he disagrees - he is saying there is no transition, there is - my word - stagnation, which is a legitimate viewpoint. So you were wrong to impose your meaning as an objective fact when it is a subjective interpretation. I don't think AFC are on the 'cusp' of anything either, under the current set up. If you're third in 1,500 metre race but the first two runners are a couple of laps ahead of you, you're not on the 'cusp'.

  40. BADARSE

    Nov 06, 2014, 16:20 #60815

    Firstly Exeter thanks for the input, but it is you who is incorrect I am afraid. Cusp is a point of transition, whether it is in mine or your lifetime is another point entirely. If they fall away and regress then they would no longer be at that same point of transition, if they improve and advance beyond that transitional point-the cusp-again they would no longer be in transition they would have achieved a different state. I never baulk at pedantry, it comes with the territory, don't you agree? Ron sorry for not responding to your earlier post, whenever I returned to the keyboard I was distracted by other comments, so I don't want you to think I was purposely being rude, just a little absent-minded. The WC you alluded to is an interesting point. I do know if a winger can roast a full back easily after a while in the game the brain loses focus and it's displayed as the winger trying to go past his man in different ways. He flicks and tricks his way out of a form of negative repetition. I also think the WC is in a similar genre area. Too much football is a significant problem, I think we are seeing those problems in a general aspect throughout. Even the fans become jaded and suffer from a type of ennui. Another match against this Euro side, like we played them twice last year, also three seasons ago, and two years before that, also we shall probably play them umpteen times in the coming seasons-all being well. Boring, repetitive and unfulfilling. You are a coach so would probably recognise you keep the ball away from the lads during training for a while then let them at it. A little like the hounds seeing the rabbit. As an aside I think we in England starve players of the ball just a little too much, a bit different in other parts of the world. A big contributing factor to poor performances though, I agree. That answers that aspect, but then you spoil it by talking assumed nonsense. My expectations and desires for Arsenal surpass yours chum. I am prepared to say on a par with, but based on previous statements and your last comment I go beyond that equality. The difference as I see it is you are disguising your lack of desire by insisting the corporation, which is Arsenal FC, should say something which we both know they shall never say. That's why we are gifted with understanding and perception, it allows us to read between the lines and arrive at a conclusion. Ugly and pedlars of half-truths and spin? Absolutely fella, all are at it nowadays, some are more adept than others, or gain greater rewards from those dodgy, under the table words and actions, Arsenal FC are a corporation, a big business, a band of money grubbing brothers, and manage better than most. That is AFC in the 21st Century. They now sell a brand, a product, and they do it amazingly successfully, but don't be so naive as to expect them to own up, they never will. You just take the best from it if you can, or you walk away. oh there is a third alternative, you can spend an eternity on here decrying their policy, and moaning about it. Life is too short for that.

  41. Exeter Gunner

    Nov 06, 2014, 16:08 #60814

    I'd venture that the difference in irritation levels comes down to Badarse deriving great comfort from the continuing tenure of Arsene Wenger, whilst Bard does not. So Badarse is more inclined to see limitations as objective realities rather than consequences of subjective approaches. Aside from that it's as Ron says, the club tell us they're reaching for the top. They set the expectation levels.

  42. Ron

    Nov 06, 2014, 15:48 #60812

    Baddie - If Arsenal had the courage to actually say that they're expectations and desires reached no higher a level for the Club than do yours, they would deserve respect and acknowledgement. If they said, ' this is us, take us or leave us', they would be admired. Many would go away and take their support with them. Those like Bard and i and many others would clap loudly, shake a fist in air, fire of a few pellets in the air from our circa 1964 Diana 15 pellet guns, cheer them and pat them on the back for their first piece of dignified honesty in 10 years. They wont though, as sponsors wouldn't like it and associated commercial backers wdt want the Club so instead they lie, spin and create fog and counter spin. Its a rotten cycle theyre in and they know theyre conning the regular paying fans, but it pays them well. Theyre happy liars and they dont care.

  43. BADARSE

    Nov 06, 2014, 15:30 #60810

    Bard you had me nodding there, right up until that Dark Lord persona got in the way. We are seemingly in accord. Top two out of sight, if you like, Sours and Toffees not a real threat, no doubt you too expect Southampton and WHU to fall away, leaving, let me guess, Liverpool and MU to contend with for the other two CL places. Group qualification far from assured, but hopefully will be achieved in second place. Then an exit? Possibly/probably, but clutching a sizeable cheque. Then onwards and upwards to fourth place security. Sounds about right in terms of a realistic achievement and target. Now we see it the same way then surely? Difference is, if I can venture a view, is your irritation at our perceived limitations, and my acceptance of the realities. Nothing wrong really in either view, the discord comes from what isn't being done to address those said issues. You expect more, I expect less. This is nothing to do with individual aspirations, you don't want success more and me less. It's our reading of likely scenarios which makes the divide. Now the animal excrement aspect. Either we are in the top two, just in the group following, or those caught up in the scrum further down the division-ignore the European comparison. I say quite insistently we are just behind those top two, a metre or a mile we are behind them. That seems to me to be a statement of fact, or am I missing something? Oh and if you are looking for your spare set of dentures, they were found in a half eaten burger bun-where did the apricot lipstick come from?

  44. Ron

    Nov 06, 2014, 15:18 #60809

    We are on the cusp of the top 2 or 3 of course guys. The issue is how high and far is it to breach the distance between the cusp and the summit? For Arsenal, the summit is like Ben Nevis's and perma cloaked in thick fog save for 3 weeks each year. Do Arsenal want to climb through and past the fog? Who knows. As it looks, it appears not, they're happy being on the safer slopes lower down. Why is this? They appear to be not brave enough to reach for a summit that's reachable at best or at worst they can climb higher to the better climbers coat tails than they do. But they don't even seem to want to do the latter, why? The expedition leader lacks the nous and the clout to do it. Yes, but his team should press him to do it? Good point and sound logic, but they're in his thrall and deep down they know that quite a number of them wouldn't manage the final hurdle if asked. How do you know? Well, theyve never done it before and they get paid the same even if they stay in the safer regions. Thats a bit sad isnt it? Yes, it is, but s modern football, failure = 'success', or a form of success. What, being a loser is being a winner? Yes, precisely. Thats madness surely? Of course it is, but its modern football and the money is more or less the same for the Club. Oh sod this, im losing interest rapidly. Yes, so have i and so have many others.

  45. Exeter Gunner

    Nov 06, 2014, 15:14 #60808

    Cusp in this context is defined as: 'a point that marks the beginning of a change: on the cusp of a new era'. Jeff is arguing AFC are not at this point. So Badarse, you are technically incorrect to state that 'Whether you ever go beyond, or perpetually remain on the cusp is neither here nor there, you remain on the cusp' as you cannot, by definition, 'remain' on a cusp, it is a point of transition. You're welcome, from Pedant's Corner

  46. Bard

    Nov 06, 2014, 15:04 #60807

    I dont think its being airbrushed out, the performance only matters to us fans, the result is fine in terms of where we are as a club. As westie points out 1 point moreorless qualifies us and thats job done. The fact that we will be hosed out in the next round is irrelevant to the club. The extra money is secured. Next job finish in 4th place, and I agree with Jeff, its a fight between us, Liverpool and Man U. The aim is to stay in contention for the 4th spot till the Jan window when our injured players will be back and Wenger can buy a CB maybe. He will hope the second half of the season will be stronger. If 4th is achieved it will have been a successful season and we will hear a load more b******* about we just below the top sides.

  47. Exeter Gunner

    Nov 06, 2014, 14:49 #60805

    maguiresbridge, it's not being airbrushed out, it's being re-spun as a good point, a good result, a 'thriller'. It isn't part of a line of embarrassments over the past few years that point at a deeper malaise, oh no. We just move on, forget about it... until the next one. Then we do the same. And so on and so on.

  48. BADARSE

    Nov 06, 2014, 14:47 #60804

    OK jeff, if you are not in the top two but just behind, then it follows you are on the cusp, surely? Whether you ever go beyond, or perpetually remain on the cusp is neither here nor there, you remain on the cusp. Anyway as cusps go I prefer salt and vinegar. You and me both 24601, every one a hero, and remain so, even as old men-hope maguiresbridge doesn't hear that-him being such an ageist and all( bit of Holden Caulfield crept in then).

  49. Westlower

    Nov 06, 2014, 14:24 #60803

    @Maguiresbridge, It wasn't a blip, we earned the point that virtually books our place in the knock out stage of the ECL with it's resultant extra dosh! We probably wouldn't have won the group if we had won 3-0. Much over-hyped fuss about nothing, just the media & AAA enjoying giving us a kicking, bit like yourself but a bit more vociferous. Giroud returns to training next week, it's just good news on top of good news! How about that team in Tuesday's programme reproducing the Euro Fairs Cup Final 2nd leg at Highbury. Wilson, Storey, McNab, Kelly, McLintock, Simpson, Armstrong, Sammels, Radford, George, Graham. AFC 3 Anderlecht 0. No fairy's in that team, just a bunch of belligerent bast*rds who wouldn't lay down! Loved that team.

  50. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 06, 2014, 13:44 #60801

    It's only been a matter of hours since the latest implosion/embarrassment from the pensioner(until the next one)and it's already well on the way to been swept under the carpet as a blip, and be forgotten about and even air brushed out of history (until the next one) if some had their way, but thank god not all and never will be.

  51. Tony Evans

    Nov 06, 2014, 13:23 #60799

    Westie - and England are just as bad as us!

  52. jeff wright

    Nov 06, 2014, 13:18 #60798

    Badarse, I don't see us being on the cusp of anything other than what we have achieved over the last ten seasons,4th or the odd 3rd place . We are not on the cusp of the top 2 places or likely to challenge for the title with the current manager and with the players and tactics that he employs. I do discount Everton and the spuds from the equation regarding the third and fourth place . As I said before,I see only us,United and Liverpool fighting it out for those places and the results between us and them could be pivotal in deciding who gets those money spinning 3rd and 4h places. So far our results against the top sides that we have met have not suggested that we are on the cusp of greatness a 2-2 at home to a struggling City we lost a 2-1 lead to them ,would you believe, and a 2-0 away defeat to Chelsea .The other top side , albeit another struggling one in the Bundesliga, was Dortmund in the CL , in which we were played off the park and lucky to only lose 2-0.

  53. Westlower

    Nov 06, 2014, 13:09 #60797

    Six Arsenal players selected for the England squad, must be the highest total since 1934, when seven represented England v Italy. Moss, Male, Hapgood, Copping, Bowden, Drake & Bastin. Drake scored in a 3-2 win for England.

  54. jjetplane

    Nov 06, 2014, 13:04 #60796

    Excellent stuff from TJ and here's to Overmars for not just being a tough little Filly (that little jump he had) but what a bloke for getting the game by the scruff of the neck (man Utd, Everton) and moving it to our advantage. Of course Pires (who can forget that goal at Villa) and when he teamed up with Wiltord and Freedie is was pure joy. Can't remember the others in the team (ho ho) but fast forward to Wenger post match this week and yes, it all seems a long time ago, and yet he is still at the helm with unfortunately very little to offer. I would want to say it is sad but I have no time for any individual coining that much and that is all he is. A Raker. I come on here and I was born a walk from the ground and was going to matches with my little scrawny crew when we were in primary school. Now I watch more football live than ever at anything under a tenner so we are looking at 9th tier and occasionally Conference or even a Championship game. How big are Bournemouth? Why do I like Koeman so much? The south coast is buzzing with good football right down the tiers and because I go to lots of it I feel little bitterness to the present Arsenal set up but i have long lost my desire for a win under this insulting regime. Back to Koeman who was well dodgy on the pitch (a winner) who is now a man you can easily warm to because he promotes a quality that is totally absent from Arsene Wenger - humility for his position in life and a firm obligation to meet the demands. I watch managers in County football with more passion and game-changing nous than Le Prof. Good old Arsenal was a song I sang more than many other pop tunes. Now it just looks an empty phrase in cyber space. Well done Mr Collins you came back well on that. I remember well 'old boys' holding court in pubs all over Britain and know that that culture has dwindled to nothingness as the greed gathers desperate pace to occupy and control what we call existence. I have to laugh sometimes that even as an old fart from a semi-feral background I am bang up to date with is needed to know and it is a joy to say I have never been to a U2 concert, had Sky, owned a car (not even a TV now) and spend my time cycling, working (two jobs), creating stuff and knowing I will never go to the Emirates because things will never change unless the PL and all the rest implodes then maybe I will visit the smoking ruins and say 'here's to the Holloway we know best.' Back to Overmars .....

  55. Westlower

    Nov 06, 2014, 12:51 #60795

    @Gaz Afraid I cant help as I haven't seen Tony since we left Highbury. Maybe someone out there knows of his whereabouts? @Graham Unfortunately we can't recall Jenks as he's on a season long loan. It would have solved a couple of problems for sure. Who would have believed Debuchy would have suffered such a long term injury from an innocent looking fall?

  56. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 06, 2014, 12:50 #60794

    Bard, shouldn't that be cock ups.

  57. DJ

    Nov 06, 2014, 12:50 #60793

    While I agree the first goal was offside and the penalty was very harsh what I think the painful reality is when it got to 3-2 we were unable to shut up shop and see the last few minutes out. As Bard points out our manager seems to get off lightly when many people raised eyebrows at his transfer policy this summer and decision to play Monreal at centre back. As has also been stated on here we are all Arsenal fans (F Joe an honourable exception) and would love to be proved wrong regarding our lack of leadership but the same mistakes just keep happening.

  58. Charlie George Orwell

    Nov 06, 2014, 12:47 #60792

    Mike C – used to go to the same primary school as Tony and lived across the road from him, not far from Kings Cross. We played in a pub team together – the Thornhill Flyers. I went to a different secondary school in Homerton and like you spent half my childhood waiting for a 30 bus! Still go into the Hope when I can for honest grub in a proper cafe. Drinking would be with mates (originally from the Cally area, but now all over the place) at the Thornhill Arms on Caledonian Road, then run by ultra Arsenal fanatic and all round good egg Peter Hillier, or in the 90’s onwards in the Clock End Bar. Shake my head when I hear of stories to keep it down. If you don’t like aircraft noise mate, I suggest you don’t buy a gaff next to an airport. I was once reprimanded by a gentleman for making too much noise at the 1998 FA Cup Final. I guess I should have been as quiet as the bemused Chinese couple sitting right behind me who were evidently at their first soccer match. You’re right about the single issue – for me it’s the elephant in the room – but it would still be good to hear of funny/interesting/poignant stories from those early fanzine days. ‘1 nil down, 2 – 1 Up, We knocked Tottenham out the Cup!’ All the best.

  59. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 06, 2014, 12:29 #60790

    Ozzie, I think there's a different name to describe OGL and his shower in your part of the world, headless chucks?

  60. BADARSE

    Nov 06, 2014, 12:13 #60789

    Afternoon jeff. You make a very sensible case, but I don't actually see it as opposing my post. If we travel on different sides of the road we may still be heading in the same direction with the same destination in mind-even if you insist on playing 'silly buggers' every time you come to a roundabout. If you are just outside the accepted top two teams, then by definition we are on the cusp, both geographically, but also by potential, surely. When you tried to get your leg over at the BBQ and the extension accidently activated, breaking the neighbour's green house glass, you were on the cusp, weren't you? True Conchita was resisting your leering advances, and I am sure I heard Bard refer to you as a proper cusp. Anyway, a digression, you compare us to MU and Liverpool, acknowledging as I and probably most subscribe to, an implosion of Southampton and Wet Cod. You don't mention the other two of the usual suspects Sours and Toffees so assume you safely strike them out of the equation. So with the top two controlling the running where do we disagree? I know you want to desperately, that is why you use fabrication to help to spin the wheel a little faster in your favour. You have questioned my truthfulness before, which is another example of this and not nice, you are doing it again with the claim I said we would win the league last year. Not true. I am known in my circles as one who never makes a pronouncement on things, particularly footie. So more fabrications of your imagination? I am out of the same mould as westlower my friend, it's why I have such an identification with him and his views. I weigh up, employ all known facts, draw on experience and likely nuances to alter an outcome, lick my finger, stick it in the air, and see which way the wind is blowing. It gives me a better than 50-50 success rate, but then as westlower would endorse, that is mathematics. Am very apprehensive about Sunday's trip. They are a reasonable side and it's a long enough journey. We have been undone there before by dodgy decisions and I would take a draw now, however as that isn't an option we must play the game. I am hopeful we turn up on the day and Theo comes on and scores the winner, so will say 0-1. It is only a random guess based on red and white tinted glasses though. Did you give back that chicken to maguiresbridge? You know those practises are against the law. Yes I know it's disturbing that he names them all, and they seem to be called Ossie, Gazza, and the one you took, Glenn, but even so, you should return it when you go to collect your Ben Ten umbrella which you left behind.

  61. Gaz

    Nov 06, 2014, 12:11 #60788

    @Westlower: Any idea what Tony Madden is up to though nowadays? Cant believe he doesn't still involve himself in the Club in some capacity even though I've not seen or heard from on any fanzine/website for a long time. Maybe I've not been looking in the right direction at the right time...

  62. Mike Collins

    Nov 06, 2014, 12:04 #60787

    Thanks, Charlie George Orwell (were you at school there?). I used to get the 38 or notoriously unreliable 30 bus from Dalston Lane to Highbury & Islington and walk down Holloway Road to The Hope dining rooms (run by Tina)or The Paradise cafe (run by Gooner Andy) for a plate of delicious grub. Then it was another hike to Blackstock Road for a pint or two in the hardcore Arsenal pubs, especially lively if dear old chums CFC, THFC or WHUFC were in the manor. We did a survey in the mid-90s about where people travelled from to watch games and more than 75% even then came in from outside the capital. By then the houses around the stadium had been colonised by our awfully nice pals from the shires - one of whom came out of his villa to tell me "to keep the noise down, old man," as I sold the fanzine. Quite what he thought the enormous structure opposite his home was stays a mystery to me and I hope he's happier now the stadium's moved, though he's probably back in Hampshire or Gloucesterhire now, his London adventure over. The only real article at the moment is Arsene Wenger - Right or Wrong? - and we see on this site how contentious it is. Everyone's view should be given an airing, but I know what my own is.

  63. jeff wright

    Nov 06, 2014, 11:44 #60786

    Badarse serious question: What are we on the cusp of? This is the same claim made by Ivan that we stand just off the shoulder of the best teams in Europe. In reality we are further away from winning the European Cup than at any time in Wenger's rather long reign. Regarding your claims that we are on the cusp in the Prem ,well that remains to be seen as the rest of the season unfolds. I expect Southampton to implode at some stage and also WHU. We are no better than Liverpool or United though and only those living in Dreamland believe that. Keeping Sanchez fit and on fire is paramount to our hopes and relying too much on one player always carries risks.We have yet to play Liverpool and United either home and away. With Chelsea to come at home at a tricky time later in the season and we all know how well Wenger does against Mourinho and a dodgy away game at Poundlands in January to play. So before you start patting yourself on the back and claiming to be the new Nostradamus , with your predictions ,you claimed last season at this point in it that we would win the league as I recall, bearing this in mind I suggest a waiting brief on how our chances of 4th or 3rd place transpires. It's not a given that 4th place is ours for the taking this season. Not by a long way.

  64. Tony Evans

    Nov 06, 2014, 11:44 #60785

    Bard - Wenger leads a charmed life and always, somehow, manages to do just enough to satisfy the board and keep the money rolling in. We are enduring a perfect storm - docile match day fans in the majority, a non football board completely motivated by money, and a manager that appears to have no ambition beyond maintaining the status quo i.e. 4th and last 16 CL. As you say how he doesn't get slaughtered for some of the gaffes he makes is beyond me, with the current self inflicted defensive crisis a perfect example.

  65. Exeter Gunner

    Nov 06, 2014, 11:38 #60784

    Wouldn't want you to say anything like that, Westlower. It is very self-sacrificing of you to deliberately hamstring yourself with 'Blame anyone and anything but the manager', (including the players and fans) but ironically this self-imposed hobbling obliges you to be very creative and comedic, providing a rich source of inspiration for others, so as I say, please keep it up.

  66. Graham Simons

    Nov 06, 2014, 11:33 #60783

    Sack Wenger, recruit Klopp and get him to bring Hummels with him, recall Jenkinson from loan, move Chambers to defensive midfield with Arteta sent to the bench, make the BFG captain, let Shad Forsythe and Steve Bould do their jobs and tell Flamini to go away - problems solved.

  67. Westlower

    Nov 06, 2014, 11:23 #60782

    @Exeter & Red, Don't panic chaps my dementia hasn't taken hold too badly so far. I see all the problems & weaknesses that you do but some of have to offer up a different perspective or there would be no ongoing narrative. What do you want me to say, Wenger's is deliberately not trying to win trophies, Bouldy doesn't have a function, the team are useless overpaid prima donnas, Ozil isn't actually injured, Giroud is too slow, Arteta too old, Flamini an accident waiting to happen, Ramsey was a flash in a pan last season, Theo, Kos, Debuchy, Ospina, Rosicky, Diaby, Arteta, Gnabry, Ox & JW are injury prone. Give the new boys time and they'll join the ever growing list, oh, some of them already have. Fixtures against us, away again at weekend after ECL game. There that should do for now, time for my medication, a glass or two of red. @Badarse, I'm a silver member, no rust on me?

  68. Ron

    Nov 06, 2014, 11:08 #60781

    Baddie - I think in terms of the lack of quality of the teams bar Chelsea right now, there is the usual post World Cup hangover syndrome that's happening. Do you? Its a factor that's not new. I read an article a few years back analysing teams performances after WC s right back from 1962 and the same ingredients of scratchy play by many of the better Clubs was seen as evident for quite some months into the new Season. I'm not saying it excuses all that's wrong with us or the others you mention but it cant be ignored. I think the emergence of Saints and Hammers is very refreshing for the PL. The tests for them will be next Season of course. They each have the surprise element going for them right now as Everton did last Season in my view.

  69. BADARSE

    Nov 06, 2014, 10:41 #60780

    Remember Red Member-sounds so rude-they laughed at Susej, oh hang on, no that was Brian, the very naughty boy.

  70. Red Member

    Nov 06, 2014, 10:35 #60779

    westlower does at least bring some comedy to this site with his musings, rather like the team these days I suppose.

  71. Bard

    Nov 06, 2014, 10:24 #60778

    Ron, the other point is that his philosophy of having a very small squad means that he is always running a the risk of being light at some stage of the season. This season we have been light since day one. What needs explaining is why he didnt sign defensive replacements when he knew Kos was injured before the season started. The argument that he couldnt find a CB who could put in a decent shift is disingenuous to say the least.He had no defensive cover on Tuesday having let Coquelin go out on loan. He did the same thing last year with Giroud and got lucky. We can debate who plays where and formations all day long but you have to have 11 players playing in their right positions as the bare minimum requirement. Having the play dear old Monreal at CB is plainly ridiculous. What amazes me is how easy a time he has over these gaffs. Any other manager would be slaughtered

  72. Exeter Gunner

    Nov 06, 2014, 10:23 #60777

    Westlower returns after a few hours rest to give further revisionism... I mean reflection. So now Tuesday's capitulation has been turned into a virtue as such 'six goal thrillers' are why the stadium sells out (they may not all turn up - but it does sell out). Ha ha ha, great stuff! Keep it up, you're certainly inventive and provide rich material to riff off.

  73. Westlower

    Nov 06, 2014, 10:21 #60776

    Nice fella Tony Madden. He always made time for a quick chat on match days. Loved his fanzine, Highbury High, that he used to edit with Ian Trevitt. In those days I used to have to write him letters re my views on AFC before email was generally available.

  74. BADARSE

    Nov 06, 2014, 10:20 #60775

    A few idle thoughts to share. During the close season I was convinced, as much as any individual can be by weighing, anticipating and speculating on this season. I posted those thoughts and views. westlower picked me up on a point which I'd overlooked in my off the cuff, broad and general assessment, which was that of MU having no Euro games, therefore making them more of a threat. I immediately acknowledged the fact, but also remained, perhaps a little less convinced, that the season would unfold in much as I'd originally expected. My general scything comments were thus: Liverpool would not really be a consideration, Euro games and no Suarez, Sours and Everton would not maintain the standard, let alone improve enough to challenge, MU were in a more serious state than most realised and would remain outside the PL elite. That meant I saw the big two money squads dominating, with us tilting our lances at them. I genuinely expected Chelsea to win it as I had tipped them the previous season, got it wrong, but expected a grounding and settling of them enough to do it this term. Well I hadn't reckoned on Southampton's sterling performance-who could have envisaged that? Anyway, without being too strident, I am witnessing a season I pretty much expected. Chelsea appear more dominant due to the failings of others, Oilers are struggling as are their neighbours, Sours and the Toffees haven't made a cavalry charge to the top and show no signs of seriously doing so, and we have gone in fits and starts-or sideways as some might prefer to describe. We are still very much in the mix and the proclamation that it's only because the PL is weak this season is both a valid and superficial observation at the same time. As you can only ever beat what is in front of you on any given day, so you can only win,(or fail to win) the title, in any given season, by finishing above the opposition in front of you. Leaving aside the hackneyed groans and moans of failure to buy, strengthen, the injuries, poor performances etc, we are still just on the cusp. Frustrating yes, and a demoralising defeat at the weekend will chew up the thread a little more, but we are still able to knock on the door. If one or two players suddenly came good, as good as Alexis' performances, then who knows? By the way all three of us in this household independently tipped the reds to win Tuesday 2-1, so none of us expected an avalanche victory, despite the deep disappointment shared by all, (I think?), it took the most ridiculously offside goal I've ever seen in a top class game to tip the balance away from us.

  75. Gaz

    Nov 06, 2014, 10:08 #60774

    Tony Madden? What's he up to nowadays then? Always enjoyed his arguements with that annoying spurs fan on sky sports a few years back...

  76. Charlie George Orwell

    Nov 06, 2014, 10:02 #60773

    Mike C - Used to on occasion buy your fanzine back in the day, along with the Arsenal Echo Echo - I imagine shares in Letraset were sky high in those days!. I also went to school with and played in a pub football team with Tony Madden who I think also played a part in those heady multi - fanzine times. Agree with you 100% about the demographics regarding local support. I'm a born and bred Islingtonian who could walk to Highbury (sigh) in 25 minutes - probably the same as a good 80% (?) of supporters when I first went to an Arsenal game in 1968. The perception (for me anyway) was that this classy club – THE Arsenal – belonged to us. Being an Arsenal fan was affordable, you felt that you weren’t continually being taken for a mug and you felt empowered to make change if necessary (as pointed out by fan power being instrumental in Terry Neill being sacked). Times change and things change, of course, that’s inevitable – indeed you played an important and welcome part of that in the 80’s – and possibly outside of TV money the biggest change for us has been the demographic of support as created by obscene London house prices. Gone are the times when a ‘normal’ local can afford to live locally (privately or in social housing) or watch Arsenal regularly – let alone take their kids like our fathers used to. We are now all scattered to the winds. Certainly you can still be an Arsenal supporter and live outside the environs, but I would say that now we are treated merely as consumer units, have absolutely no sense of empowerment and the Arsenal Board and management are as far removed from us that they may as well be on the moon. Hey ho. I endorse a previous post asking you to write a piece on the early fanzine days.

  77. Spectrum

    Nov 06, 2014, 9:54 #60772

    Anyone could do a better job than Wenger has over the last ten years. They don't even need to be high profile like Klopp. Look at Southampton for example. They made a bold decision to go with Ronald Koeman - a man with a very modest managerial record. But they did their homework on him, and decided he was the right fit for them. Now they're exceeding all expectations - especially when you consider that their team had been gutted of its best players just a few months ago. Koeman came in, rebuilt the team, and is motivating them to play to their full potential. And all this remember, on a budget and resources that are FAR INFERIOR to Arsenal's !!! Then there's the Liverpool of last season. Brendan Rogers had done a good job at Swansea, so the Reds decided to give him a go. He took them to within a whisker of winning the league. Give him a bit more time, and who's to say he eventually won't ? Meanwhile, back at the Emirates......yawnnnnnnnnn. " In Arsene we rust."

  78. Westlower

    Nov 06, 2014, 8:40 #60771

    Further reflections on the 3-3 Anderlecht game. How different would the words have been with a 0-0. AFC lack a cutting edge, no creativity in the midfield, lack of pace on the wings? The end result would have been the same with a point won and qualification to the knock out stages virtually assured. 6 goal thrillers and 60,000 tickets sold usually go hand in hand. Dissatisfaction at the Bridge with Chavs not enjoying Maureen's brand of winning of football. Reported to be quieter than the Emirates. No English teams winning in this round of ECL games @dazzy90, Please leave your brand of racism for the pub as referring to Diaby as a useless French twat is distasteful & disrespectful. I'm sure you've upset many French Gooners reading your missive. @Mike Collins, You arrive lobbing a grenade into the site, extolling your honest views. I thought your one about Ozil feigning injury took the biscuit. To compare certain posters on here with the old geezers in your Hackney local was arrogant and plain wrong. Ron was correct in saying this is a broad church, with people posting from a variety of locations, backgrounds & life experiences. You may think you are Mr Arsenal but they are many on this site with greater experience of AFC than your good self. Respect & perspective at all times. We are not all single lads in our replica shirts on the pull - if only! Like you I'll make this my final word on the subject of posters I don't like. Prediction Swansea 1 - AFC 3 at odds of 18/1.

  79. Ron

    Nov 06, 2014, 8:28 #60770

    TJ - Great points you make regarding change of style and all correct. I think Jeffs on the button too when he says this team is really the fag end of the 'Barca lite' experiment and the failure of that style is hanging around like a bad smell. So many players (small lightweweight nippy but not near good enough) have been bought in with that style in mind by Wenger that its now a mammoth task to change the style using the same type of players, so its as if Wenger is a prisoner of his own creation it seems to me. Yr own view on deeper defending is very true. How can a coach ask a defender as slow and limiited as Merter to play a high line? Its madness, though in my view hes a very limited player who needs replacing anyway.Hes certainly the 'BFG' but hes also one who cant dominate a forward, hes tall, but lacks strength and he amazingly cannot jump! The past counter attacking teams we had that you speak of had turbo charged strong midfielders as the teams platform and wide men who were also physically strong. PV4 and Manu P were like an alternating shuttle system up and down the pitch. The defence didnt need to play high line as they absorbed so much in the way of defensive duties. TH and DB were strong big men. Overmars even was a tough lad. With these we had the guile of Pires and Freddie. Todays players arent in the same league of quality. We were lucky to have so many who joined us of the ilk of those i name. AW is due great credit for that. I personally think it was a team that very much coached itself. At the back Sol C was shrewd and mastered his defenders and we always had a top goal keeper. The change to project youth and project Barca is a large failed legacy that in itself may take some years to expunge. Can the creator of it undo his own folly? I dont think so. It needs fresh eyes and brutal management from the very top of the Club down to the dressing room where a Coach with no sentiment towards whats there must work to do it as i see it. The Team and Club at large seem just 'comfortable' to me, happy to be at the level theyre at. Their play smacks of a carefree shoulder shrugging manner. Its probably a happy ship in that dressing room but for all of the wrong reasons. Its a Club that needs shaking from its torpor, but while the cash flows in..........? Draw yr own conclusions.

  80. Mike Collins

    Nov 06, 2014, 7:42 #60769

    I take note of all your fair comments, gentlemen. The issue for us now is Swansea City. Can the lumbering Per cope with Bony; can our misfiring midfield dominate their improving one? And much as I enjoy watching AS tearing apart defences and bulging the net, I'd like to see Welbeck's name on the score sheet on Sunday, if only to boost his confidence. Although I've joked about Santi Cazorla, he's a worry at the moment and badly out of form. Even his trademark grin and happy-go-lucky nature look subdued. Let's hope we don't have another Arshavin on our hands. Whatever, c'mon you glorious Gunners in a city where I once watched Lee Chapman (yep, I'm that old) come on as a sub and score the winner in a 2-1 victory.

  81. Bard

    Nov 06, 2014, 7:41 #60768

    Jamie, I am surprised your post got past the Web editors, comments about my relational life are off limits. Suffice to say that Conchita is one hell of a woman and she would never leave me for Jeff. Methinks you might have a little thing for Mike Collins if I have read your post correctly. We could all meet up for a foursome and pretend we are the Arsenal back four. Conchita is up for the idea, apparently she is excited by the fact that there are so many holes in the Arsenal defence.

  82. Alex

    Nov 06, 2014, 5:08 #60767

    Edmund - I also saw Anderlecht's 17 year old belgian kid who looked twice the player Arteta was. Arteta is a joke of a player. Even a 17 year old is a better player than him. I'd rather see young Dan Crowley be playing than this guy.

  83. Edmund

    Nov 06, 2014, 4:58 #60766

    To those who asked Arteta to retire, I hope you see now what he brings to the team. Cut him some slack and support the players. Part of their confidence must surely be affected by fans.

  84. Alex

    Nov 06, 2014, 4:49 #60765

    As for managers I think Martinez or Klopp would be a great fit. Both are young coaches who have the tactical knowledge, know how of the modern game, have the experience of working under not much money, play a attacking brand of football, know how to win against the top sides, improve the players with coaching, good in the transfer market. I wouldn't mind taking a punt on any of them.

  85. DW Thomas

    Nov 06, 2014, 1:12 #60764

    Jamie, back again from muppet land. Good to see you brought some buddies! Statler and Waldorf (Baddie and Westie), Beaker (GBP), Animal (Jamie...Kermit was the wrong fit!). Anyone saying OGL should be given more time, any at all cares more for him than the club, PERIOD. He is now disgracing himself and all around him. He is living on past glories. Martinez would be a great fit. Class and has a good football brain. He might even bring Baines and Barkley with him! Get him in now! But that will never ever happen as long as the sheeple pay the sky high ticket prices and bow to their master. Profits is the priority. As long as the muppet brigade support this regime, he is untouchable. Sad. We could be so much more!

  86. Ozzie

    Nov 06, 2014, 0:48 #60763

    After the first 15 minutes Arsenal had 75% possession and if not for a great save by Szczesny would have been 1-0 down which is indicative of many games where they dominate possession for long periods for little or no reward.

  87. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 05, 2014, 23:52 #60761

    TJ, funny you should mention the 06 CL run, just after they showed the highlights of OGL and his team embarrassing us and imploding again on the CL goals programme on Sky they had a programme great CL finals, and guess what game it was? Somebody was having a laugh or just had a good sense of humour, and wanted to remind us it will be a long time until we're in that position again while this clown remains in charge anyway.

  88. TJ

    Nov 05, 2014, 23:20 #60760

    Jeff and Ron, I should say firstly I always enjoy your comments and I agree with you Ron in saying that Wenger loves his teams to go top heavy on the attack and Jeff you're completely right about the Rosicky/Cazorla mould of player not being defensively sound. BUT I do think Bould made a tangible difference and that we weren't too weak offensively- there were major tactical changes when he first joined. Mertesacker became our best player because we had him play almost as a sweeper with time to step up. The team played about 10 yards deeper and the buildup play was much slower and more considered. Also the whole back four worked on the offside trap and put their hands up to claim offsides- very GG-esque! Strategically there was much more emphasis on not conceding and I think we would have won all the games with a proper striker leading the line. As for the 2006 CL run- some think that was inspired by Martin Keown (it certainly didn't look like a Wenger defence) but that said, the real reason our defence has been in decline for the last ten years is, in my opinion, the change from counterattack to possession football. Whenever I watch the goals we used to score the transition was sensational- teams just couldn't get at us offensively because we always had the players to create a great chance just seconds later. Look at this team now- we're not set up to counterattack anymore- maybe if we could do that with a Wanyama or Carvalho shielding the back line we beat the big boys away from home- I think Welbeck, AOC, Walcott and Sanchez have it in them to do that but we persist with a slow, non-pressing version of total football instead.

  89. jjetplane

    Nov 05, 2014, 23:13 #60759

    The Fog of (Gooner) War is truly upon us. Mr COLLinS - don't you think it is even more unhelpful to start a discourse on here about people you seem to not like and refer to them as well them. People have a bit of a laugh on here and most of it is football related. Where is the problem and why is it all of sudden such a big one for you?

  90. JAMIE

    Nov 05, 2014, 23:06 #60758

    Mike Collins.Used to purchase your fanzine back yonder along with the gooner and always found it a good read.Mainly anti everything on here so don't be too positive about Arsenal or you'll need a tin hat.Bards a bit pissed off at the moment because his girlfriend Conchita's ran off with jeff wright,so that's why he's a bit grouchy.Hopefully BADARSE will fill us in how the wob's fireworks display went off at MARCUS's kennel.

  91. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 05, 2014, 23:04 #60757

    Hiccup, yes and I can't see the scouse fans sitting back and lapping it up and just accepting it, and doing nothing about it like our fans, i'd think they'd have more ambition than a hell of a lot of ours.

  92. Peter Hughes

    Nov 05, 2014, 23:01 #60756

    Disappointed,of course. Frustrated you bet.It is all part & parcel of following any team.In 47 years I have felt & seen a lot worse.Lets keep things in perspective.In all those years it is only in the Wenger years I expected to win the league. Obviously not in the last 5 or 6 years but I will not bore you with the reasons as they have been stated before but they are valid.We have made some great signings this year & will add to that next year.We are finally competing financially & more evenly with the teams that have bought the title in recent years.The problem is the defense is all over the place but is that not Steve Bould's department.The BFG has not regained form this season so far & is often dragged to the wings.If you look at the line of our defense you can see how a quick break or one ball can catch us out.I actually thought Monreal was doing a great job & I said so last night.Big mouth because he then got suckered into giving away a penalty.One mistake but a costly one.You should not lose a 3 goal lead but sometimes you have to give credit to the opposition.They were not a bad team & we took 4 points off them.

  93. jeff wright

    Nov 05, 2014, 22:40 #60755

    Dear Jamie,I watched the City game and events were largely decided by the incompetent or bent ref! The first Moscow goal came from a free-kick that was not a foul then later a Moscow player should have got sent off for a two footed lunge ... the ref did not even award City a free-kick for it... and later on having sent off a City player he booked a wrong Moscow player in a case of mistaken identity or something more sinister > ? Instead of booking the real culprit - who was already after doing a thugish challenge on Tourre - on a yellow card and would have got another and a red to follow. Tourre was an idiot letting the refs decisions wind him up and deserved his red card. City it must be said were poor though . The question is would we have done any better against the Russian side away in Moscow and at home ? If not then what exactly is your point,or as usual don't you have one? It's all academic anyway we are like City not good enough ourselves to win the cup so what is the point of it all - other than to make money to do it all over again again next season .Wenger is like a white rat on a wheel going endlessly around to back where he started from,yawn.

  94. maguirsbridge gooner

    Nov 05, 2014, 22:31 #60754

    A few discussions about bouldy have cropped up, for a guy that was coached by the best, and played in the famous back four you'd think he should know something about defending setting one up, marking etc, now either he's given or allowed no responsibility whatsoever and not listened to, or he's given control ( don't laugh)of the defence and he's just plain f*****g useless, make up your own mind.

  95. PaddyGooner

    Nov 05, 2014, 22:22 #60753

    @Mike Collins - I knew the name rung a bell and I well remember your stuff in 1-0 Down. It's great to read your thoughts on here - I used to love your stuff in the fanzine. Maybe you could be persuaded to come out of retirement and write an article of the website? I know what you mean about the characters on here who tend to dominate the conversations. Many of their posts are relevant and thought-provoking, but I've said on here before that some of the more irrelevant ones would be better consigned to the forum rather than the main site. I thought one of the rules of the site was that posts should be on topic? Perhaps this is something the mods need to tighten up on?

  96. Mike Collins

    Nov 05, 2014, 22:17 #60752

    Bard: dazzy90 and myself didn't mention a single person by name in our criticism, so I am surprised at your sensitivity to what appears legitimate comment on a certain clique here which dominates the later stages of a debate crucial to the future of the club we all support - AFC. I will never post another word about this matter, only footballing ones as they relate to our fantastic club. I only hope everyone else follows suit because I don't want to be making honest (even if wrong) observations surrounded by people who may mistake their IT devices for real life.

  97. jeff wright

    Nov 05, 2014, 22:15 #60751

    I suspect that a change of manager could see an upturn in results for us even with the heavily overstocked injury prone midfield and slow lightweight defence that we have. Bringing in a new man often does produce better results . The effects wear off after awhile though and other factors have to kick-in. Sorting out the mess left behind by Wenger will be a job enough in its self.Even a neanderthal such as Pulis would produce better defending than what Wenger serves up . I'm not convinced either by the claims about Bould coaching the defence to produce a run of clean sheets - only for spiteful Arsene to get narked about it because he was not getting the credit! Surely even he can't be that dumb? Can he>? As I recall it we have had a few runs ,including to the Final in Paris ,without conceding goals , when Bould was not on parade . So I think it was just the way the fixtures fell after Bould arrived and how the games panned out. Overall since Wenger tried to copy-cat the Messi led Barcelona tika-taka possession and passing game,and filled the team with garden gnome sized technical artisans, we have been weak defensively.The players are not good enough to play Barca type football in our league or in Europe either.Also a big miss for Wenger in trying to ape Barca is the small matter of him not having Messi in his side. Also Wenger's stubborn insistence on zonal marking on corners has proven costly every season. Perhaps that is one area where Bould could have helpedout with his experience - if this system were changed to man marking.No chance though of old arrogant Arsene following any advice to change things. The zonal malarkey was used during the so called Bould run of clean sheets anyway,so yet more evidence to me that he had nothing much to do with the run - other than like Pat Rice - to put out the traffic cones on the training ground and to get the midgets to run around them. Wenger's admission after the latest defensive fiasco last night that 'we underestimated ' Anderlecht is another attempt by 'the specialist in failure'to pin the blame for last night's clueless display of trying to defend a 3-0 lead on to the players .Even allowing for the first goal being well offside 3-1 should still have been enough to see off a modest outfit like the Belgian one. This claim by Wenger, even if it were true, only adds weight to the argument that he is past it,although tbh if you can't see that anyway then you need a white stick and a guide dog.

  98. JAMIE

    Nov 05, 2014, 22:08 #60750

    City well and truly outclassed by a nothing Russian team,Toure rubbish and sent off,Fernandinho rubbish and sent off.Aguero booked for diving for a penalty.Only Aguero,Silva and Kompany would I like to see anywhere near our team.Like Chelsea mainly a physical team kicking,snarling,hoofing and diving their way through games.Shame we couldn't have had their ref instead of the bumbling fool we had last night.Lets see if talksport hammer city like they did us today.Fair play to their fans though they tend not to slag their team off like the AAA do to the Arsenal and are generally quite supportive of them.Although the atmosphere at their ground seemed like a training ground,very similar to Stamford bridge.I suppose that's what we have to look forward to if we sell out to Usmanov.Ah well at least the glory hunters will be happy.

  99. Highbury Boy

    Nov 05, 2014, 22:04 #60749

    @Finsbury Boy. Hayden is injured.

  100. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 05, 2014, 21:54 #60748

    CT Gooner, and also when fans listen to OGL and lap up the spin.

  101. Finsbury Boy

    Nov 05, 2014, 21:38 #60747

    The defensive frailties are not a new phenomena, they have been apparent for several seasons as has the continuing fault of easing off and showboating when ahead, it is often seen when we are one up never mind three up and occurs again and again. After each disaster various players are wheeled out to say it must never happen again but it always does.We must be the only fans in the country that are still nervous when their team is three ahead. Arsenal have two good promising defenders in Bellerin and Hayden. Surely it would be better to play them in their normal positions rather than having Monreal at centre back. O.K they are young so was a certain Tony Adams when he was a regular. Has project youth been so badly discredited that Wenger won't even risk the good ones.

  102. Website Admin

    Nov 05, 2014, 21:37 #60746

    Another reminder that people identified as posting under multiple names will have their posts deleted and may ultimately be banned.

  103. jjetplane

    Nov 05, 2014, 21:26 #60745

    Citeh in deep implosion and Chelski following .... Get a new coach before xmas and we are up for the PL. Wenger - out of the way Time for the real Arsenal.

  104. BADARSE

    Nov 05, 2014, 21:17 #60744

    Bard and Ron, am humbled, well done gents. OK, walking down the street and I saw this guy, ha ha. Those were the days, 'Penny for the guy?' Communal bonfires on bombed debris, some as high as the sky. We'd raided old bomb sites for old door frames, tea chests knicked from the warehouses, and all manner of old gear. Raiding Foxes Greengrocer yard and rifling armfuls of potatoes to shove in the embers as the fire roared. All for one, one for all, even the little kids like me had a place in the crew, and some younger than me did too. Loads of fireworks in austere times. We'd come home from school and stop in our tracks on seeing blue chalk marks on the pavement. 'The Coupon Ladies!' We'd scuttle up the stairs of the flats knocking on each door. No answer and we'd slip the coupons out of the high letterbox. Wow! Daz 2d off, Vim 3d off, and Brillo 2d off. In our pockets. Doors that opened, 'Got any wastepaper lady?' Always a money spinner by taking to the junk and waste yard, but not when coupons were about. Do a block and have perhaps 20 flats nearly eleven bob when men earned frumpence a week. Scour the flats and meet another posse coming the other way. Time to bale out. Scoot off to East Lane and the corner shop there. Hand over the coupons, cut for the shopkeeper, and our dosh goes straight into the firework club. Our little book was weighty. We were rich on Guy Fawkes night, so came home from there with boxfuls of them.. So, who can remember 'squibs' and 'jumping jacks', and of course 'Roman candles'? Get down Shep!

  105. jjetplane

    Nov 05, 2014, 21:00 #60743

    Heard him on the radio and unlike old Fergy who was about 90 when he won his last PL, Wenger sounded groaningly old. For a club with such apparent financial clout it is quite shocking and ultimately embarrassing - for both him and us.

  106. Ron

    Nov 05, 2014, 20:34 #60741

    Bard - how i wish we had a striker who could time his chance taking and shooting as well as you just have with yr post 64083. On the button and 1-0 to you, game over Mr Collins. This site has many regular posters and many of whom fall out over Arsenal and i guess thats because they care for the Club. Theres not a poster on here who hasnt verbally rucked with others who they disagree with. Ive not seen much of you on here, though ive not been here for quite a while until recently so maybe yr brand on here is known more than i think. Theres some decent posters on here. Its a broad church. Some who are here more than others granted, yet nobody has ever towed yr line to my knowledge over it or moaned about it, so maybe yr in the wrong as Bard says, perhaps its you who needs to go forth and multiply? With yr attitude it wont be long im sure before quite a few on here are queuing up behind Bard and ushering you to the front door. You can make me the 1st one to help Bard ease you on yr way out fella. What a truly lousy post yours is.

  107. Ron

    Nov 05, 2014, 20:18 #60740

    TJ - Appreciate yr comments mate and you are right to a degree i guess. I think Bouldie maybe is good at organizing but it maybe stops there with him. A global game isnt maybe his forte ie balancing defensive discipline with offensive play. Could it be that rightly or wrongly Boulds work in defensive strength conflicted with Wengers desires to attack and play with more panache and ne'r the twain shall meet? Im not saying that makes Wenger right as results say not but maybe Wenger felt Bouldies tighter defensive emphasis was compromising the team shape and play? If this was the case it suggests that the Wenger Bould pairing is at fault doesn't it.They do seem like the odd couple to me and while i doubt Bouldie would ever use the term 'philosophy' in his football context, Wenger has the term as the plank of his thinking and his game plan. Therein lies maybe the cause of Wenger getting naffed off if youre right and that he was a bit jealous of Boulds influence? I can imagine there s some truth in what you say. I can see Wenger being a spikey man who likes to survey and own all that he sees before him. He is French after all!!

  108. Hiccup

    Nov 05, 2014, 20:07 #60739

    The best thing that happened last night was Brendan Rodgers team selection, which to me stuck 2 fingers up to the competition and more importantly to his fans. I've had scouse fans chirping on for years how they need to get back in the top 4 to compete in this bore fest competition. Welcome to the Top 4 rip off Liverpool fans. Years out of it, and he rests his team because they have a bigger game at the weekend. The game against Chelsea is more important as they need something from it to get back in the top 4? Quite clear that Rodgers kpi is very similar to Wenger's. At least Rodgers is transparent with the whole thing. I can't see scouse fans getting too over excited now as the season nears its end if they're in contention for 4th. Or maybe they will? If the club plays it's cards right, and follows the Arsenal marketing strategy, fans can be led up the garden path for ten years and beyond with this 4th place fallacy.

  109. Bard

    Nov 05, 2014, 20:07 #60738

    dazzy90 ,Mike Collins; if you don't like what and who writes on here then f*** of elsewhere. touché mate. Its free to comment, everyone can have their say, no one is excluded. If you don't like whats being posted then don't read it. If you have got something new to say and reading your posts suggest you don't then post an interesting comment or even an article so we can all be enlightened by your football knowledge.

  110. Westlower

    Nov 05, 2014, 20:06 #60737

    @Mike Collins, Your memory serves you well as it was indeed Walsall, then of the old 3rd division, who knocked Arsenal out of the League Cup. Coupled with that, Arsenal were 16th in the league, 5 points above the relegation zone, at the time of Terry Neill's sacking on December 16th 1983.

  111. Wibblefish

    Nov 05, 2014, 19:52 #60736

    The only way the club will move forward is if they are forced to make changes. Either Wenger through crowd pressure will man up and see his days are over or the club is hit financially through continued loss revenue. Without either of these pressures there is never going to be any change. Our manager has a job for life and the club is run / owned by people who only care about the business model. Where's the pride, where's the passion? I genuinely crave for days like the pre Graham era when we were mid table. At least we f***ing cared! we believed it would get better. We had hope! Now we have a shiny new stadium, outrageous prices and a view of the promised land. The only problem is the people in charge of the club are not interested in paradise, only money. And let's face facts, Wenger makes them lots of it.

  112. Mike

    Nov 05, 2014, 19:45 #60735

    If you leave out the three Anderlecht goals one was offside and the other two flukes we won 3-0.

  113. Carlos

    Nov 05, 2014, 19:35 #60734

    Most fans will be very annoyed by last night's performance, but apart from them and of course the manager, who else will be? Will the CEO, the chairman or the owner be all that bothered? Surely to them, one of the main boxes for what they consider to be success has already been ticked by the team having qualified for the CL. The next aim is to secure top 4 in the league, which given the paucity of opposition will probably be handily achieved. As an aside, many football followers feel that the supposed quality in depth of the English PL makes it the best league in Europe and that the Liga is like the SPL in the sun. Does anyone feel that Arsenal would be top 4 material there? Ni hablar.

  114. Orville

    Nov 05, 2014, 19:20 #60733

    dazzy90 and Mike Collins are correct. This site suffers from a clique of four who pollute the place with pointless pollocks. It is the same on AWIMB where Berni, Sir C., Jorge and Monty91 have contaminated a once great site.

  115. Nozzer

    Nov 05, 2014, 19:02 #60732

    This really is groundhog day, we are coming up with the same points over and over again. Since our move to the grove we have been vulnerable defensively. That coincided with Sol Campbell and Ashley Cole leaving. None of the defenders who have come to the club are anywhere near their class, plus we have never replaced Vieira and Gilberto. Wenger got away with his lack of tactical acumen because of the players he had at the club who were leaders and great defensive players. His inability to sign the right defensive players and address his lack of tactical acumen is a failing on his part. We are playing Rolls Royce prices for Lada defending. The problem last night has been occurring for the last eight years. It has not been acceptable for a long time, I am beyond the point of having enough, our manager is good for Kroenke but not us. He is not a football manager, he is an accountant.

  116. TJ

    Nov 05, 2014, 18:59 #60731

    @Ron, when Steve Bould first joined the team played brilliant football- it had all the hallmarks of a classic GG defence. We hadn't conceded one goal before the Chelsea match and had created lots of chances too (but Giroud was too poor to finish them). The Chelsea defeat saw us play the old way though and from thereon we never went back to what it was- the reports were that Wenger got fed up of him getting all the credit.

  117. 600NER PETE

    Nov 05, 2014, 18:58 #60730

    The most depressing thing about results like this is I don't get depressed by them any more! Over the last 5 or 6 years my enthusiasm for the club I loved has gradually been sucked out of me. I am still waiting for the headline "Wenger resigns!" I might start getting excited again then.

  118. CT Gooner

    Nov 05, 2014, 18:32 #60729

    Thanks Kev. Funny thing is I didn't see the collapse coming. But after it did, I asked myself where were Ramsey, carzola, Flamini & Rosicky in the last half hour? As for Alexis, he needs help, he shouldn't have to do it all by himself. Last point, have you guys seen that 10% of the folks responding to the online Gooner survey think we'll finish top two, that's the level of insanity around our club.

  119. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 05, 2014, 18:31 #60728

    Bard, quip of the day so far but be careful some might believe you, BADARSE thanks for the lament.

  120. Mike Collins

    Nov 05, 2014, 18:25 #60727

    dazzy90 - thanks for your support. Although I used to edit a rival fanzine to The Gooner - 1-0 Down, 2-1 Up - I knew Kev and his cohorts pretty well and, whatever differences we may have had, we were all solid Arsenal, which Kev still is today judging by his perceptive match reports and comments about what he sees. As for the four or five you mention who hog this site, I used to live (in the 80s) opposite a Hackney pub where the ageing cockney regulars had all been drinking together since the war. They spoke in code, ignored and indeed were hostile to outsiders, and never listened to a thing anyone else said, like make sure you cash in on your house when the new people arrive. Their fate? Even as self-styled "tough" East End bunnies they were swept away by affluent young professional incomers from the wealth-making farms and provincial towns of England, just as the north London the native Gunners-supporting, working class have been in N1 N5, N7 etc. So you guilty guys, stop hogging The Gooner website, a forum to discuss Arsenal, as dazzy 90 rightly says, not your obscure complexes. Get out more; pull a girl (I know you're all sad single men in replica shirts); get a life. Come on you Gunners!

  121. N4

    Nov 05, 2014, 18:24 #60726

    Alex, I feel your pain...! Just what if we had Cesc as a replacement or something...! A & G spot on! Today my friend wants AW to go but he just can't say it....WHY??!!! I asked myself!!!

  122. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 05, 2014, 18:07 #60725

    Westlower, I never said anybody was or had, (read again) getting ready to was the term used, finger on the button ready to go, but thanks to OGL's ineptitude that all changed at the last minute so we'll never know, unless you want to confess.

  123. Ron

    Nov 05, 2014, 17:57 #60724

    Peter - i rather suspect Wenger is a very dominant man. He earns so much more than Bould and why i cant for the life of me imagine Bould is any great shakes coaching wise, i cd be wrong and perhaps he has abilities as yet untapped. He looks resigned and depressed to quite honest. Things go awry on the pitch and his head is in his hands more or less immediately. A new Coach usually equals a new back room. If the new Coach is prominent Bould isnt likely to survive. He was a journeyman player really and knew how to be disciplined but can you imagine him being steeped in the ways of the modern game and if he is, can you imagine him having a voice? I cant. He just seems to be the sounding board for Wenger's moans and gripes mid game to me. Perhaps Bould hangs in there thinking he might be Mr Interim Coach if (and its a big if), Wenger spits his dummy out so to get the chance of an interview for the job?

  124. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 05, 2014, 17:37 #60723

    BADARSE, good one, well it is always someone else's. Mike Collins good sense of humour. WeAreBuilding it's a pity the laundry lady didn't slip a sheet of paper with tactics on it into his pockets but with all the fiddling about he probably wouldn't have found it and then of course wouldn't have under stood it anyway, and it still didn't keep him dry.

  125. jeff wright

    Nov 05, 2014, 17:30 #60722

    Westie, if I had know Debbie was your mum I would never have mentioned Stan's menage-a-trois with her and Ron Jeremy! Of more concern is the more pragmatic approach to defending that Rodgers employed last night in the Bernabeu ,our bloke would have gone gung-ho for an unlikely win and ended up getting caned leaving the players and himself depressed and lacking in confidence for the away trip to Swansea . Also it looks like Gaal is prepared to try and grind out results judging by his tactics at City on Sunday . A big game on Saturday for Arsene even a draw will not be a good result.It should be,but it's mighty close between 4th spot and the other pretenders below us for that place.

  126. Peter Wain

    Nov 05, 2014, 17:20 #60721

    we never ever learn lessons from our defeats. We have needed 2 defensive midfield players preferably 6foot plus and t least one top class centre half. But Wenger will not change and no one seems prepared to tell him least of all Steve Bould which is very disappointing.

  127. Alex

    Nov 05, 2014, 17:14 #60719

    I hate Wenger. He has sucked the joy out of me and left me angry, frustrated and depressed. I wish he had never joined us. He has tortured me for the last decade. He is the worst thing to happen to us in my view. I also think he is the worst manager in the world. I wish it was 2017 already so no more Wenger finally but then then he will sign another new one. I am also disgusted by Arsenal fans for letting him get away with it. Even now they will do nothing and never will. I also have no respect for them as clearly for them Wenger is bigger than the club for them. Arsenal fans should be ashamed of themselves for failing the club this way. Even though I try to stop supporting the club stop this torture I can't help it. I just love the club so much. I always dream how finally nice it would be and it would bring enjoyment when the club is finally in the hands of a proper manager. This makes me hate Wenger even more. I really hope Swansea, United and Dortmund destroy us. I want us to lose every game getting trashed until Wenger is gone. Look what Wenger has done to me. I feel very jealous of Chelsea how they are under a proper manager and it disgusts me to watch Cesc in that shirt. Sigh I think the day Wenger finally leaves I can enjoy this club again.

  128. dazzy90

    Nov 05, 2014, 16:57 #60718

    Mike Collins - well said! I too like I suspect a great deal of others, am sick and tired of trawling through the comments section to read the same old people having weird, obscure, rants to each other loosely based around what actually we are all on here for - a debate about Arsenal! Those 4 or 5 of you f##k off elsewhere with your bullsh*t As for the state of AFC, we are a shambles. On and off the field. I've said many times - no leadership on or off the pitch. For a new coach / manager or whatever you wanna call it there isn't much wrong with Martinez or Klopp both very good both with a tactical brain and for Martinez proven in the prem. Right now I'd take Stevie Wonder over the useless twat we got right now. Even Stevie could see what needs doing on the pitch. Even he could see the likes of Montreal, sanogood are nowhere near good enough for premier league football. Even Stevie would realise that diaby is a useless French twat who's a crock and if he were a dog you'd of put him down long ago. Merson was spot on with his comments last night, and was pretty much making the same comments after the first game against them 2 weeks ago. If only someone would take serious notice at the club and do something about it. Go Wenger asap.I do not know any arsenal fan who wants you to stay and do not hear any arsenal fan make a reasoned claim as to why you should.

  129. jeff wright

    Nov 05, 2014, 16:56 #60716

    Ron, they try and gloss it up a bit with our alma mater extra-curricular activities will broaden your outlook and enrich your life. Sports activities will produce great spirit in the graduates that they will be able pass on to others... Wenger obviously is a prime example of this .

  130. BADARSE

    Nov 05, 2014, 16:55 #60715

    Thank you for that Bard, about time someone talked some sense today. Thing is, grass is grown by inches and killed by feet, but like Johnny Walker, the spirit is good. So, altogether now'...when they lay me, 'neath the green, green grass of home!'

  131. Bard

    Nov 05, 2014, 16:49 #60714

    I think we need to take some positives out of yesterdays debacle. i thought the pitch looked in excellent nick and the tight fitting shirts look very modern. The red of the shirts matched the green of the turf and I for one thought the whole thing was worthy of an artistic masterpiece, a credit to the management team. i would say we are only off the shoulder of Anderlecht and the other big teams in terms of green looking pitches,certainly close enough to put the prices up next season. If my lawn was as good as the Emirates pitch I'd be very happy, so stop moaning. As for a new coach its a toss up between Monty Don and Alan Titchmarsh they are both horticulturalists of the highest order. If we invest in a decent electric lawnmower instead of these cheap foreign imports we may be in with a shot at the Green Pitch trophy. It means we get to compete with the big Euro grounds next season. Now where did I put my meds?

  132. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 05, 2014, 16:45 #60713

    Rocky RIP, I haven't seen a TV today but no doubt they have wheeled someone out to spin it all away and tell us the same bullshyte they always do after an embarrassment, and it wouldn't take much guessing who.

  133. Westlower

    Nov 05, 2014, 16:42 #60712

    @Jeff, Fancy you knowing my mum Debbie from Dallas. Small world isn't it? Let's hope we see Alexis doing Swansea & the Mancs.

  134. Paulo75

    Nov 05, 2014, 16:34 #60711

    Paul Merson hit the nail on the head last night ... tactically clueless. And that refers to the players and management. Seriously, I have seen 5 a side teams see out a game with more know how than that. Whilst you fully expect the players to know their job and to shut up shop the silence and lack of direction from the bench was unbelievable. As a defender of distinction in his playing days, what exactly is Steve Bould's role at the club now if he is just going to sit on the bench like a statue when the midfield and defence is crumbling? So predictably embarrassing. The majority of a 60,000 crowd can see the glaring deficiencies but those in charge obviously cant.

  135. Ron

    Nov 05, 2014, 16:23 #60710

    Hi Jeff - ha. Mate, do Strasbourg Univ include that in their prospectus? ie 'our aim and purpose enshrined in our constitution both now and throughout our illustrious academic history has been set on producing driven, talented and ambitious plodders and jobsworths, many of whom we are proud to say have excelled in Councils and dole offices throughout Europe' etc etc

  136. Highbury Boy

    Nov 05, 2014, 16:18 #60709

    A couple of extra random points which I don't think have been picked up. Did you see that after our 3rd goal Arteta went towards the bench and signalled that he needed to come off? He was told to carry on (presumably as Flamini was not ready). He hobbled about and again waved his hands wanting to come off. As they attacked (to score their first goal) he was slowly getting back into position. a) Why wasn't Flamini ready and b) Why didn't Arteta go down after our goal to stop play? So unprofessional. Also why was Chambers playing so far forward,as far forward any right winger? The result was not unexpected,in fact after they were cutting open our defence early on I said to my son this could end up 3-3. Another 5 minutes and we would have lost.

  137. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 05, 2014, 16:17 #60708

    Yes indeed Kev, same old same old nothings changed, or nothing will with this pensioner we have masquerading as a manager at the helm,we're as far away now as we were nine years ago, being the finished article and success under this old man is still as far away as his first piss. Time for change and it has been for a long long time, it's been said before any manager no matter who, could organise, focus, motivate, and get more out of these players than the old has been we have, and any body that can't see that is either blind or just doesn't want to.

  138. jeff wright

    Nov 05, 2014, 15:57 #60707

    Personally I have thought for sometime now that under the current Stan Kronenke regime,he is still sporting the porno tash that he had on in when he appeared in 'Debbie Does Dallas' back in the 70s , that we are more likely to slide into midtable mediocrity,we are always in reality just one spot above it at the end of each season with anything below 4th midtable just Ropey Cup , than we are to move upwards into a top two title challenging position. At best under Stan we will only maintain the status quo of 4th or occasionally 3rd place. It's mainly 4th. Any new manager would have to work under the existing financial conditions imposed on him by Silent Stan - who these days is fdoing us instead of Debbie in Dallas - these financial conditions though are not quite as bad as what some claim and it is not impossible that a more dynamic, and tactically astute manager, than Inspector Clueless is could etch out some significant improvement to show for the near 170m a year wage bill that our student of economics runs up.Wenger got his degree at Strasbourg Uni, an institution known for producing civil servant plodders and council office Jobsworth rather than academic geniuses. Wenger comes over as being a Jobsworth type . I don't buy into all the crap that our current token old Etonian chairman coughed up at the AGM about everything being down to Arsene and everyone else at the club follows him like sheep. I accept that this is the case with the football coaching and tactics wages paid to players, etc, but there have been instances over the past few seasons when these claims that old Chips came out with have looked rather dubious. Big clubs don't sell their best players was Wenger's retort, when asked if Fabregas would be sold to Barcelona. He was sold to them though .Deja vu RVP who Wenger insisted would not be sold , but in a late deal with United he was. Then there was the odd Ozil affair, with a rare official AFC announcement that Stan Kroeneke had played a full part in signing him. He was supposed to be going take us to another level. Then recently we had the late late Danny Boy signing with Wenger out of the country advising the Pope on how to save mankind and later admitting that had he been at home in bed then the signing would never have taken place. Wenger was only interested in a loan deal for him and had been talking up the prospects of his own signing from the previous summner, Sanago. You couldn't make it up. Stan though had heard the jeers aimed at Wenger of: Go and sign a ****ing striker ! When he was at the Leicester away day fiasco that game was a harbinger of the doom to come ,regarding our dodgy defending. At least Stan heeded the advice about a striker,if he knew more about the game though then he would have surely demanded another CB to replace Tommy Vermin >? It looks as though Stan is susceptible to angry supporters , the boos last night when the curtain came down at the end of the show will have worried him. So perhaps if enough supporters want change at the club then voicing their vocal displeasure is the only way they might get it. Wenger himself just sulks and makes comments about idiots who have never worked a day in football and waits fo another Burnley to come along to use like a drunken man leans on lamposts to help him find his way home from a pub ,the problem with this Burnley scenario is that Burnley are clearly the worst team in the Prem by the proverbial, and looking at the fixtures between now and the away game to City , on provisionally 17h Jan , there doesn't look as though there are any really easy type games. Scraping through the Champions League group in second spot will not offer any relief either with Real Madrid - or a similar top side awaiting in the next round. Will that tie be le Emperor's Waterloo ?

  139. au revoir wenger

    Nov 05, 2014, 15:55 #60706

    why does Steve Bould not get any criticism ,he sits on the bench like a wax dummy.He is either as thick as Wenger or is just happy to sit there and take his money,either way he should be slung out with the French idiot

  140. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 05, 2014, 15:50 #60704

    If anyone didn't know better they'd think the fraud had a smirk on his face in the accompanying photo, there again would any of us be surprised.

  141. Mike Collins

    Nov 05, 2014, 15:49 #60703

    Yep, as I predicted hours ago, round and round we go, with the same old factions squaring up to each other with the same old arguments and insults. There are only two options here - i) AW stays. I'd like to hear reasoned arguments as to how things will improve if he does, given the last seven-eight years. ii) AW leaves (resigns or sacked.) As others have asked, who would replace him? Cue a list of names of Britsh & European managers each of us reckon can do the job. Would taking the risk on a new face be worth the game, or is the comfy 4th place, CL knockout stage, occasional cup success what we need for another five years or so? No-one can deny the greatness of AW's past achievements; probably what we're ALL concerned about is his capacity to repeat them in the future.

  142. DJ

    Nov 05, 2014, 15:40 #60702

    If we are looking for a replacement my choices would be Klopp or Martinez. I know Klopp’s stock has fallen at the moment but I believe he has the character and ideals to fire the team and crowd. Martinez may be a more conservative choice but carries himself with a touch of class and may be more suited to the ‘Arsenal Way’

  143. Westlower

    Nov 05, 2014, 15:04 #60700

    @Maguiresbridge, Who was posting his 'told you so' at 9.43 last night?

  144. goonergocarpfishing

    Nov 05, 2014, 14:50 #60699

    id like to think that last night could be another nail in the ccffin of the burnt out clueless mr wenger but we have experiecnced so many of these performances to know he is untouchable,you can put some of the blame on the players but suriey the vast majority lies at the feet of the manager. im not going to waste my time again listing where we need to strenghthen or list the players who through no fault of thier own shouldnt be at the club as again this wont happen untill HE goes.i guess HE will make promises of adressing our deficiencies leading up till the january window then cry woe is me i cant find the right players that are better then what we have or for the right price and we will watch citeh,chelski and man ure do the opposite AGAIN. the akb crew must be decreasing in size after each match,ive said it for five yeara and will continue to do so Till it happens WENGER OUT NOW

  145. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 05, 2014, 14:48 #60698

    You can just imagine the AKB's last night at 3-0 up ready to send the already typed I told you so, what you think of that posts in support of their messiah, fingers on the triggers (sorry submit button) all ready to go, and others forming in their head like he's still the right man for the job etc, then? oh no, oh dear, oh dear, it all goes tits up yet again the old has been s****s on them from a great height yet again now where's that delete button, it's not right laughing.

  146. Ron

    Nov 05, 2014, 14:46 #60697

    johnnyhawley - leading question and a big debate. Lets have it mate. For me, we cant go for a young buck. The job at Arsenal in my view is a big one depending upon where the Board want the new Coach to take the Club. If its higher and to seek glory we need an older head with guts and nous and PL experience and who knows what the modern game and winning is all about. Its Ancellotti for me. Strong, good bloke. No bull sh-- from him and hes respected here and abroad and hes tactical too. He would need a right hand man who would no doubt be his to choose. Part of me though would like to take a punt on Martinez. Hes inexperienced though and this squad needs gutting and rebuilding doesnt it IF the Club wants to raise its bar to challenge properly. On that point, from the primary squad im assuming we d keep Sanchez and Chamberlain for certain. The rest, ill be honest and say it wouldn't concern me if a new Coach wanted to move all of them on in his time, but it would take time and the new guy has to naturally work with what he has. All in all its maybe a bridge too far for RM right now and its a pity. Id give him the liberty of the Club falling out of Europe if it meant the Club was to find its drive and purpose again domestically. Arsenal have got the resources and the framework to get back into the CL later on, we re not in Liverpools and Spurs positions on that front. Theres some thing about Klopp that tells me hes not the man either. Too much the loose cannon perhaps as with Simeone?

  147. DJ

    Nov 05, 2014, 14:30 #60696

    KC: That is entirely the point everyone can see what is happening but our leader is too stubborn to do anything about it! When you say who is there to place him, I find it hard to believe whoever we replace him with could do a worst job in organising a team that is hard to break down!

  148. WeAreBuildingATeamToDominate

    Nov 05, 2014, 14:16 #60695

    Don't despair, the injuries are clearing up day by day. Won't be long now before Giroud's back leading the line, and Diaby will be like a new signing. And we've moved a point closer to qualification whilst keeping our main rival for 2nd in the group at bay. It just keeps on getting better and better.

  149. Goongoonergone

    Nov 05, 2014, 14:10 #60694

    Wenger reminds me of Hitler - he's still dreaming of conquering Europe. Wenger's blitzkrieg died with the Invincibles. Time to suck on the cyanide, Wenger.

  150. KC

    Nov 05, 2014, 14:10 #60693

    Good report but depressing. Its strange but I can remember being on the North Bank when half wanted rid of TN and half supported him much like today. Right now i find it all so frustrating to watch a team that have no idea when out of possession and second rate players in important positions, its so obvious been happening so long that you wonder if our manager has lost all sense of reality!

  151. johnnyhawleyloovinggooner

    Nov 05, 2014, 14:08 #60692

    interesting comments on Terry Neil as that game in 83 was going through my head as I sat at the end of the game totally stunned that this happened again.as AW got credit when we were winning cups then this sad situ were we went into the season with so few defenders is his fault. I did give him a chance thinking we had a centre half like big tony in the stiffs to step up. the truth, to me ,is that Terry (and the Don) got sacked for less. That said who would we bring in at this stage?

  152. Mark T

    Nov 05, 2014, 14:05 #60691

    Great article as usual. Last night was totally predictable and utterly depressing. We've become the joke that keeps on giving. How long more are we going to have to endure this insanity?

  153. 3 up and we f****d it up

    Nov 05, 2014, 13:25 #60687

    The only surprise was that fans were surprised by last night.We should be used to it by now after the last 10 years.We are a mentally weak team that all goes back to our tactically clueless manager.Mourinho has had Wenger's number for years because Mourinho has tactics.Wenger doesnt.Specialist in failure is correct.When you look at all the great managers Mourinho Sir Alex Ancelotti and Guardiola look at their records in Europe and compare it with Inspector Clueless.One final in 17 years is abysmal.We all know now that 2nd place in the group means certain elimination.Groundhog season again.But to Wenger Gazidis and Kroenke to Holy Grail is 4th place

  154. DJ

    Nov 05, 2014, 13:19 #60686

    Mike Collins: Don’t suppose Terry Neil fancies letting Mr Wenger taking over the management of that Wine Bar? They will never run out of Chateau Petrus 1968 and the old know it all can regale the punters of how He used to be a brilliant manager.

  155. WeAreBuildingATeamToDominate

    Nov 05, 2014, 13:18 #60685

    Peeps, the reason for last nights implosion is clear for all to see. AW's new shiny coat, (in suspiciously Chelsea royal blue) would have been all new to him so meant he had to spend even more time fiddling with the zip and missed what was happening on the pitch. That's my reckoning anyway. Or perhaps it's because he should have been put out to grass sometime around 2006-07.

  156. Sprite

    Nov 05, 2014, 13:07 #60684

    I bet if Arsene Wenger bought a can of 7up, he'd probably lose that too!

  157. AWIMB AKBs

    Nov 05, 2014, 13:07 #60683

    Sir Charlie , Jorge.

  158. jeff wright

    Nov 05, 2014, 13:04 #60682

    Dear Jamie,wrong wrong wrong time after time ,but he has dug himself into a hole over Wenger and now he can't crawl back out of it .

  159. Tony Evans

    Nov 05, 2014, 13:01 #60681

    Good summary Kevin - you tell it how it is. I have to say that the last few years under Wenger have been the most frustrating and predictable in all my time as an Arsenal supporter. Frustrating because we see the same old mistakes and Keystone Kops defending time and time again, and yet we know with utter certainty that nothing will be done to remedy it. Predictable because you can virtually put your house on Arsenal finishing 2nd in their CL group and then being knocked out at the last 16 stage; and then scraping in to the top four in the PL to keep Wenger in his job and ensure an exact replica next season. The FA cup win was a welcome change last season, but even that was slightly spoiled for me by the fact that it probably saved Wenger's job for him. A and F - fully agree with you. Ron - the rot did indeed set in years ago but nothing changes does it. You can't even have any hope for the future with Wenger still at the helm if the past 7 years or so are anything to go by.

  160. Mike Collins

    Nov 05, 2014, 12:58 #60680

    DJ - it was 83 Neill was sacked... a long time ago. Also he opened a wine bar in Holborn not "Holbron" as I typed. I'm still overexcited after last night's six-goal thriller.

  161. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 05, 2014, 12:57 #60679

    And some people actually ask why and think this old has been of a manager shouldn't be vilified.Could someone in authority please stand up and be counted show balls and put this old excuse for a manager and the fans out of his and our misery.

  162. Chris NottinghamGooner

    Nov 05, 2014, 12:52 #60678

    Reminds me a lot of Cloughie's last days, we'll be relegated from the Top Four too if not this season then next, and also no longer a European Top Eight club, we're now just hanging on to Top 16 & about to be relegated from that again if not this season than next. It really is a slow agonising death

  163. Gnasher

    Nov 05, 2014, 12:49 #60677

    good on ya jamie, tellen em ow it is. us matelot know all about taking it ard (down on the poop deck). keep it up my son

  164. Mike Collins

    Nov 05, 2014, 12:46 #60676

    DJ - I was there in that crowd outside Highbury demanding Neill out after we'd been tanked by a lower league side (Walsall?) in 1982 (I think, I'm not looking it up). Electric atmosphere and real passion. Years later I interviewed TN in his Holbron winebar and he also recalled the night vividly, knowing it was time to go with the real Arsenal shareholders - us - demanding his resignation. They were different days indeed. On to the present and WiFi isn't the only complaint of the bourgeois support these days. I ordered a Chateau Petrus 1968 at a recent game and they only had a '69 in the cellar. I complained long and hard and three little people got the sack, I'm glad to say. Father (when I was a lad on his Oxfordshire farm) always told me to come down hard on slack servants and, by Jove, I did.

  165. BADARSE

    Nov 05, 2014, 12:38 #60674

    maguiresbridge, Ratty said it was Mister Toad's fault.

  166. DJ

    Nov 05, 2014, 12:29 #60672

    Mike Collins: The reason we are stuck in this never ending circle is all the so called ‘action groups’ are now all controlled by the club. Kronke and his cohorts have been very clever in feeding them little titbits so they now feel part of the establishment. ‘Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely’ When I was a teenager I remember the crowd congregating by the marble halls and demanding the removal of Terry Neil and the board reacted. Now we have such a middle class, bourgeois crowd the only thing that causes them to complain is if the Wi-Fi isn’t connected.

  167. Rocky RIP

    Nov 05, 2014, 12:28 #60671

    It reminded me of being 4-2 up versus Sp*rs, late in the game, cruising and piling forward for a 5th. The result: 4-4 (two very late goals and they released a DVD to celebrate their draw.)I sincerely hope Arsenal players don't insult our intelligence yet again and talk about learning lessons, as they clearly never do.

  168. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 05, 2014, 12:25 #60669

    And the drowned/drowning rat standing on the touchline shaking his head as if it's someone else's fault, well who's fault is it this time you old has been? those dammed referees again they had it all planed to allow Anderlecht back into it before the match even started.

  169. Charlie George Orwell

    Nov 05, 2014, 12:20 #60667

    Jamie - if you want to be known as the 'voice of reason', may I suggest you don't begin your posts with 'Shut it...'

  170. GoonerRon

    Nov 05, 2014, 12:20 #60666

    Aaaarrrggghhhh. So frustrated. In-game management was so bad it was untrue. Wenger can only do so much from the touchline but what he did last night wasn't right - bringing Podolski on in those last 10 minutes just wasn't the right player - the pace of Theo or physicality of Sanogo would surely have suited the circumstances better. As for the rest, the midfield balance was again totally wrong. In the last two games with Arteta and Flamini we have at least had a solid looking base in midfield (notwithstanding the quality of the opposition or the merits of improving those two positions with a bona fide DM signing). Last night that was completely lost, whether it's a Ramsey issue (or a Wilshere issue when he plays in the role) I'm not totally sure, but it's clear there needs to be more discipline from our players when the situation merits it. This needs to be enforced by Wenger and Bould in training. Hopefully a one-off and not too much lost, but the remaining results will be the judge of that.

  171. Exeter Gunner

    Nov 05, 2014, 12:15 #60665

    Westlower, where your theory falls down is that Sanchez has only been at the club this season and this sort of thing has been going on for years. But even if there's something in it, why doesn't the manager intervene during the match? The answer is in what Kevin says. His critique is unarguable really, though I'd like to see someone try. @Jamie you make the mistake AKBS often make in thinking unquestioning loyalty and a refusal to critique means you're made of 'sterner stuff'.

  172. chris dee

    Nov 05, 2014, 12:14 #60664

    Lazy,arrogant big time Charlies.Think they are the bees knees when in fact they are nothing more than a pretend 'big team'.All endorsed and nurtured with Arsene's blessings. A word of advice to Alexis Sanchez,don't be like Cesc,get out quick if you want to play with the big boys and not with a bunch of big girls blouses that we have had for the last 9 years. And to think Frank McLintock and the boys witnessed this shameful collapse.

  173. Ron

    Nov 05, 2014, 12:07 #60662

    Good old Westie. How did these collapses ever occur pre Sanchez? Mate, they happen because the team cant defend. they're irresponsible and the Manager cant and doesn't know how to react to changing conditions in a game. Where have you been for the last 9 years?

  174. Where's Wally is a Gooner

    Nov 05, 2014, 11:59 #60661

    Masses of empty seats. No real attempt by the club to fill them. Same old nonsense on and off the pitch. Truly shocking game by Ramsey, surely the most overrated player at the club. Only surpassed by the ineptitude of the manager. It's become a bore under Wenger as he struggles to maintain the status quo year after year. The only guy that can turn the Champions League into one big yawn. The madness continues.

  175. DJ

    Nov 05, 2014, 11:42 #60658

    The time has come for our manager to be held accountable. I know it should have been after the 8-2 drubbing at Old Trafford but the lack of forward planning from the start of this season has been unforgivable. Monreal is not and never will be a centre back not his fault he has played at left back for the whole of his career, Flamini has lost any desire he ever had and as for leaders our squad make Captain Mannering look like Winston Churchill. The only thing I disagree with is Arteta is our penalty taker and while it is debatable whether he should be in the team while he is he should continue to take the spot kicks. For the first time last night I heard ‘Wenger Out’ chants and unfortunately it can’t come too soon!

  176. TJ

    Nov 05, 2014, 11:42 #60657

    The team's malaise is the product of Wenger. As you said previously Kev, the good players this year are Welbeck, Sanchez, Chambers and Debuchy (before injury) and guess what, they're all new signings! Everyone else has been dire, hence why we recorded our worst points total apart from the 11/12 season (the 8-2 to United defeat etc.) this year in the league. Also, although I think given his previous achievements he should be the next Arsenal manager, Klopp's team are struggling this year (five consecutive losses for them in the league...) and yet they are way above us in this Champions League Group. Anderlecht and Galatasary are Championship-standard teams (ie English second division). The team doesn't have any defensive structure, they look bored and demotivated playing this formulaic tiki taka Lite that only incorporates the offensive side of the game, and even then not fully. Just think they must get the exact same team talk every game as we don't adapt to any opposition, how inspiring as a player... Since the Chelsea defeat I have become indifferent to what happens mostly- I still follow games because I love the club but I am now, like many others presumably, just waiting for Wenger to leave. If we even make fourth this year (which, by the way, is not a great achievement) it will owe to this league being p*** poor! City struggling in Europe, Liverpool looking like a mid table team without Sturridge, United still struggling to build a new team, the Spuds still lacking consistency. P.S. Why don't the AKBs defend Wenger with relative spend arguments anymore?

  177. Alsace Lorraine de Totteridge

    Nov 05, 2014, 11:42 #60656

    I believe it is the case that it is only in the case of murderers or lunatics detained at the Home Secretary's pleasure or on indeterminate sentences, that can have their spell of porridge extended and extended. Yet we suffer this buffoon endlessly. Things will only change when the money starts to flow less freely. Since we get progressively worse at defending one can only assume that eventually Stan and Ivan will sack him for not producing the Champions League readies. Please can we draw Real Madrid in the second round. The sight of Creamio the Hairdresser scoring 10 goals against us will cause the Moron a nervous breakdown, though not sadly, enough of one to resign. In Mr Wenger's world, we tolerate failure. Even a specialist in Failure.

  178. Mike Collins

    Nov 05, 2014, 11:42 #60655

    Good match report from Kev; some predictable reactions from Gooners, with Angry & Frustrated the most trenchant so far; the usual crowd to come in with their penny's worth until the debate loses its thread and becomes a private conversation about FA between them; AW to continue at the helm; Santi's grin to become a thing of history; out of CL in first KO stage; nothing won anywhere else; repeat ad nauseam from August 2015.

  179. Declan Burke

    Nov 05, 2014, 11:41 #60654

    Disillusioned, totally and utterly disillusioned with Wenger's Arsenal. Pathetic. Please Mr Keswick and fellow directors DO THE BLOODY OBVIOUS.

  180. Fozzy

    Nov 05, 2014, 11:39 #60653

    The police helicopter circling the area straight after the match was either helping with the search for the Arse defence which had been reported missing, or supporting urgent deliveries of more loo rolls after so many arses had gone. There were so many warning signs throughout the first half, yet Weng just sat on his seat watching and giving no direction. His choice of substitutions was completely bizarre and that cost us the three points. As soon as Wiggy went off we were like a ship without a rudder. Nobody stepped up. Rosicky has lost all his pace and it's about time he was shipped of to the Arsenal Retirement Home at Upton Park.

  181. Westlower

    Nov 05, 2014, 11:37 #60652

    Oh dear! Oh dear! Oh dear! Well Kevin, what to make of that? Here goes with my wonky theory from left field as I'm sure the rest of the posts will be reassuring familiar. Alexis Sanchez's strong personality is affecting the team in both a positive & negative way. The positive is Ox's goal, straight out of the Alexis book of chasing down and getting your reward. The negative is Alexis beckoning his team mates forward in support of him when he ventures up field. His enthusiasm is infectious & causes some of the players to abandon their shape in the team. He is effectively running the show! At 3-0 the team thought they could run up a cricket score & couldn't sense any danger from Anderlecht. One minute changed the complexion of the game. The officials wrongly allowing a blatant offside goal, followed quickly by Arteta leaving the field & taking with him the teams discipline. Flamini remains a headless chicken & needs Arteta alongside him to act as his brain. My betting told the tale of my emotions. After going 1-0 up I backed a draw at 10/1, in case we surrendered our early advantage, at 2-0 I backed the draw again at 43/1 in case we cocked up big time (been there before), at 3-0 I decided not to throw any more money down the drain as the match was over. Ladbrokes were offering 93/1 about the draw at this point. Bet bold but not reckless is my motto. At 3-1 a felt relaxed as the officials 'gave' them a consolation goal. At 3-2 I started getting twitchy but resisted any more bets. In the 88th minute I panicked and backed the draw again at 15/1. At 3-3 I started backing Arsenal to win at 6/1 & 8/1. As Kevin rightly says this was a 'free' cock up that was waiting to happen. Qualification is all but assured, in fact the bookies shortened our odds from 1/19 to as much as 1/66. Job done bar the shouting. If we reproduce this performance on Nov 22nd against the Mancies, it could be carnage. Hopefully this was our give away of this season & not to be repeated anytime soon.

  182. Milesgooner

    Nov 05, 2014, 11:25 #60649

    Can't disagree with much Kevin. One thing however, I follow the pitch announcers twitter feed and he says that UEFA run proceedings throughout the day and that they are strict on what can and can't happen. Basically a lap of honour for the 1970 team would not have been sanctioned!

  183. Rob

    Nov 05, 2014, 11:21 #60648

    Wenger earns £8 million per annum. Throw in the £3 million - and soon no doubt to be rising - that Stan pockets and there's a decent centre half for you wages and all. But one CD is clearly not the answer when as you said, the Manager is tactically clueless. Compare him to the best around and yes that means Mourinho as well as Simone, Ancelotti and Pep - as well as others less obvious and he's way short. But doubtless hot dogs were flogged; pop corn consumed and Arsenal made a tidy sum. So Stan's happy and Ivan is still dreaming of 'World domination' like some Bonapartist from a nut house; so all is well in N5.

  184. BADARSE

    Nov 05, 2014, 11:16 #60647

    Well said Kevin, couldn't disagree with a word really. Quite sad and depressing, but change will occur sometime not too far off.

  185. Gnasher

    Nov 05, 2014, 11:15 #60645

    watch wot u lot rite coz my big ard matelo mate jamie will be along soon to sort all u moaning minnies out. he aint arf ard i tell u

  186. Angry & Frustrated

    Nov 05, 2014, 11:13 #60644

    I suppose my name says it all after yesterday’s umpteenth clueless performance. What I simply fail to understand is why is there not a concerted effort to get rid of this clown who masquerades as a football manager within the stadium itself? Anybody with even the smallest football knowledge can see where the problems are in this team, yet Wenger clearly doesn’t. I realize a lot of tourists and AKB’s are there on a weekly basis, but surely there are also thousands of likeminded Gooners who are sick to the back teeth with this death by a thousand cuts charade. When are we going to start hearing Wenger out chants, both home and away? I suppose I and many other disillusioned fans are part of the problem here, as I have long since stopped going, having realized that our emperor has no clothes, or being prepared to pay the exorbitant prices. If I was still attending with my best mate (like me he refuses to attend now) and no doubt many others who don’t attend anymore, we would be voicing our opinions loud and clear. The club has successfully sanitised the place of fans like me, which suits them down to the ground, because as long as the gravy train keeps going, everything is hunky dory! Fourth placed trophy and last 16 CL exit here we come, oh joy! The only interest I have left this season, apart from hopefully Wenger’s demise, is that Chelsea don’t become the new invincible, as that would be too much for me to also have to stomach.

  187. Charlie George Orwell

    Nov 05, 2014, 11:11 #60643

    The out-of-depth helmsmanship was so conspicuous, I half-expected to see a Coast Guard helicopter circling above the Arsenal bench.