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1. Chris

   Feb 21, 2015, 21:25 #67126

   'Arsenal Fan' - I think you have misinterpreted what I wrote which was, admittedly, a bit ambiguous. I meant "has in the past dropped to 5th" rather than "has now dropped to 5th". Liverpool (as well as Citeh, Utd and Chelski) had a higher wage bill than us a couple of seasons ago. I'm well aware of where our current wage bill sits, having pointed out to the WOBs who got all excited about the silly Telegraph article saying our wage bill would be higher than Chelsea's when they came out that that article who prove a load of tosh. You can always sense desperation in a journalist when they start writing agenda driven articles about something they claim is about to happen, because they know they won't get the chance later....

2. Arsenal Fan

   Feb 21, 2015, 10:49 #67106

   "our wage bill is usually 4th, but has dropped to 5th highest in the PL". @Chris: where did you get that our wage bill dropped to 5th highest in the PL? If I remember correctly, Swish Ramble has us 4th highest in the PL for 2014.

3. Wenger Out Failure

   Feb 20, 2015, 17:41 #67082

   Next season the WOB's will be celebrating their tenth anniversary of their utter failure in attempting to oust Wenger.Any special T.shirts or souvenirs planned.

4. maguiresbridge gooner

   Feb 20, 2015, 16:58 #67079

   jj, there's been no bottom in the barrel for years, they're halfway to Australia now.

5. Ron

   Feb 20, 2015, 16:53 #67078

   I must have been confused about my confusion mate and even worse embroiled in my moral vacuum. I cant sleep some times worrying about footie s place in the meaning of life. Its terrible There's still no financial analysis ever been produced though that doesn't leave room for interpretation. At least you,' Mr Emprical' seems to be accepting the subjective now though, so there's hope springing eternal for us all as we zip into another wonderful week ends frivolities (well, for me anyway!). Have a good one yourself mate. Up the Gunners!

6. Chris

   Feb 20, 2015, 16:34 #67075

   Ron - Ha ha you are struggling now mate, aren't you? I suspect you are confused about the difference between making projections in a complex system and simply appraising what's already happened, which is what the analyses I'm talking about have done. There are some areas that don’t leave room for opinion (such as we’ve been discussing) however much you'd love that not to be the case. In your typical fashion, you're making a negative unsubstantiated attack whilst attempting (laughably) to cling onto the moral high ground. You obviously rate yourself as a judge of the game so I'm not surprised that this evidence that shows you're not as good as you like to think is unpalatable. You often make negative points that I disagree with, and you make them in such a forceful, dismissive (of players, the manager, the team and club) that I’m compelled to respond. Although of course there’s others that do – e.g. when you tell me that all of our promising young English players are average and over-rated, I take issue with you but don’t claim to have proved you are wrong. Not even when you tell me Theo is no good and has ‘just had a couple of purple patches’ and then he comes back, scores a great goal within nano-seconds of his return and continues to score in every match he starts since……

7. Ron

   Feb 20, 2015, 16:13 #67072

   Westie - the Real Madrid Chairman in the galacticos years would strongly disagree with yr theory that money takes all universally. Football isn't like racing. Racing is more like Formula 1. One is the most expensive inanimate asset to control, the other an inanimate one. Football has far more variables and influences to determine outcomes surely, the Coach being but one, albeit maybe the primary one. In Formula 1 even, those with the greatest cash input into Research and Development, driver choice etc have historically lost as often as they have won. Ever wondered why Ferrari have 'trophy deserts' so often? Its a mystery those in F1 would love to see answered but it pleases their opponents no end. You wont find the answer in the Sporting Life either mate.

8. jjetplane

   Feb 20, 2015, 16:07 #67071

   do believe it's you scraping the barrel there WESTIE and am still suprised at the 8m man's limited vocabulary of 2 words - 'strength and Speeeret' (sic). Makes Savage sound like a man of letters! lol!

9. Ron

   Feb 20, 2015, 16:01 #67070

   Chris - (whichever one you are)In having seen financial and cost/benefit appraisals for nigh on 37 years you're the first person ive ever known to claim them to be completely unequivocal and undisputed 'fact' and thus totally objective. Congratulations, but it must be lonely on the island that you inhabit.

10. jeff wright

    Feb 20, 2015, 15:59 #67069

    Non mon ami ! I t was the French football fans and the TV company that found Arsene's punditry wanting,not me.I have not seen any of his French TV work. I have not been impressed by his TV persona on our TV though and have in fact stated prior to his dismissal from French TV that he should give a swerve to doing interviews because he is not very good at doing them.His lack of any tactical nous regarding football is a matter of record this is why he sticks rigidly to the training ground plan during games and his pre-match usually after 70 minutes played subs regardless of the way the match is panning out rather than try to make changes during games.We saw this at Swansea when he let poor Chambers get a roasting all afternoon when it was obvious that he should have been pulled off to save him from further punishment. Wenger's at times bizarre substitutions have caused uproar among supporters at matches for years ,it is not for no good reason that some have shouted at him: Oi ! Wenger ... u don't know wot yer doing *!*&!............ You couldn't make it up.

11. Westlower

    Feb 20, 2015, 15:28 #67067

    @Jeff You're scraping the barrel on judging a manager on how he performs as a TV pundit. The ubiquitous Robbie Savage should be a shoe in to be a leading manager on that iffy criteria. Orange tan, twinkle toes, dyed blonde hair + the ability to talk sh*te with classic gems like 'get in their faces' & Robbies the man for all seasons.

12. jeff wright

    Feb 20, 2015, 15:06 #67064

    Using your criteria Chris of the finances and football intertwining Wenger should be competing with Chelsea and City for the Prem title and not with Southampton ,Liverpool and spuds for 4th spot. The differentials are that Wenger is closer to those top two financially than what the clubs that he competes with regularly for 4th place are .These clubs despite being financially inferiorto us , and having managers with less Prem experience than Wenger, have still managed to compete for 4th place with us . Whereas Wenger has never been at the races regarding offering a challenge to Chelsea and City for first or second place. United despite being the worst side that the club has had for years still beat us at our gaff and have been ahead of us in the league ever since . Wenger's season realistcally depends on winning twice now at Old Trafford ,a place that these days he has an aversion to like Dracula does with crucifixes. I put these factors down to Wenger's management, and by the way, some former top players who have been managed by Wenger have said that tactically he is clueless. He also got fired from his French TV pundit job due to his poor input during the World Cup in Brazil with many angry French viewers complaining about the nonsense that he was coming out with .Wenger is an accountant by trade who somehow strayed into football management he was fired by Monaco and ended up in a dead-end job in Japan .Dein rescued him from that fate and tbf to Wenger he made the most of the opportunity that he was given. Unfortunately though it has been a game of two halves for him,the glory days of Highbury have not been reciprocated at the Emirates. I think the job was too big for Wenger he drifted back to trying to prove that the flawed failed policies that got him fired at Monaco could work ,but again they failed him . Anywhere else and he would have had to pack his bags and leave again but the 4th place trophy, that he invented himself , came to his rescue for 9 long (yawn) years and the old shareholders Diamond Danny, Lord Peter Hillwoodentop and lady what's her name took the millions from Stan and ran. Once again though that 4th place trophy is what Arsene is relying on and of course the Champions League next season to justify his position.No one pays a manager 8 million a year to just win FA Cups.

13. jjetplane

    Feb 20, 2015, 13:23 #67056

    Horses, balance sheets, two bob corporate twaddle and all in The Year of the Goat! lol! Hoy JAMERsON why don't you write a 'funny' script though judging by your proto-trollism don't think you or your cyber hero are quite up for GOON escapades. HICCUP or BARD on the other hand .... Anyway - this Wenger bloke as I said, would do a fine job at a flagship shopping centre, say in Strasbourg or even Manchester as a point of minor contention. Ha ha! they were just asking the great Wenger (clown) on the radio how he deals with annihilations on the field. He mumbled some old crap that was lost in the smug delivery ... Love football! Love the Europa! It's the new trip hop and bass mon!

14. Chris

    Feb 20, 2015, 13:05 #67054

    By the way - it was a rhetorical question but for the sake of clarity, Simeone's pre-Athletico record was moderate (won 95, drawn 52, lost 57 across six clubs in Argentina and Italy in five years).

15. Westlower

    Feb 20, 2015, 12:50 #67052

    @Exeter, It's not just football where money buys quality. I'm only too aware in the world of horse racing that the richest owners usually own the best horses. Twas ever thus. Football is no different. There may be short term contradictions but generally speaking in the longer term money will always dictate where the prizes are handed out. The influence of the coach is a factor but give any experienced coach a squad of top class players and he will deliver. CFC are proof that a number of coaches have delivered the prizes off the back of an extravagant budget.

16. Chris

    Feb 20, 2015, 12:47 #67051

    Yes, as I've already said, I'm not the Chris that wrote the article. The problem is, Exter Gooner, that as you belatedly admit, the qualities you cite are completely subjective. You say we lack tactics and leadership, I say we don't - you just don't like the way Wenger leads or the tactics - or rather, strategy, he employs. But the stats I quote are real, objective assessments - that's why they are used by people making hard-headed decisions. To say I'm arguing from the balance sheet rather than from football misses the whole point - unfortunately these days you can't separate the two. No one is denying that management counts too - I'm just arguing that Wenger is a good one and he's more of a help than a hindrance. If you get the perfect storm - one of the best managers ever, an exceptional crop of home grown players, and the richest club in the league - then you get what we say at Utd during Fergie's era. But it wouldn't have happened if he didn't have the money to outbid us for Ronaldo, to snap up Rooney and Ferdinand etc etc. Similarly, Dortmund are now suffering in comparison to Bayern because they keep taking their best players. Sustained success is hard - what was Simeone's managerial record prior to his time at Athletico? H'es finished in the top 2 in Spain once - it's doubtful he will again this ear. Is that because he's a bad manager, worse than Enrique, or because Barca have spent more money on players and richer clubs keep nicking Athletico's best layers...? I don't doubt that we could have achieved more in the last 8 seasons if we had taken a more short-term approach - as i said before, if we had we would have kept Fab, RVP, Nasri etc by surrounding them with better players and undoubtedly done better. But the view from the club was that that would have harmed us in the future. You and I may find that frustrating but that doesn't mean bitching about the things you do makes that wrong. And as has been demonstrated, what Wenger does obviously does, on balance, work better than most. His supposed lack of tactics (which is a myth) is obviously outweighed by something, because the stats show that to be the case over the long-term....

17. Exeter Gunner

    Feb 20, 2015, 12:05 #67048

    There seems to be an idea that 'resources relative to league position' is the begining and the end of the argument. It isn't. Define that as 'overachievement' if you want, but some of us think the lack of leadership, character, tactics, opposition prep, regular humiliations and capitulations aren't a price worth paying that for that particular type of 'overachievement'. So we'd like a manager who tried to instill those qualities - nebulous and emotive though they may seem to some - even though, yes, there is a risk of AFC actually doing less well if a change is made. We think it's worth the risk in exchange for the hope of doing better. It's a personal preference.

18. mark from aylesbury

    Feb 20, 2015, 10:09 #67042

    Chris - I mentioned across Europe as we know the situation in England i.e. we consistently lose against top 4 teams and even lost against Manchester UTD with Moyes in charge. Our poor record against the top 4 along with our failure to capture enough points to those teams lower than us has created consistent failure to win trophies over the last 10 years. Potentially a more wily manager would have drawn out games against our top 4 rivals and cut through the debris below. You are then at the end of the season in with a challenge. If you get derailed in February then you do not have a hope. How is that got anything to do with the fact that Chelsea have slightly higher revenue? Still down to management me thinks. otherwise Manure would now be steam rollering their way to the title. Don't see why it is pissing in the wind particularly when ex players consistently confirm he does not place much emphasis on opposition tactics. Just to finish by saying we seem to have two Chris's on this site?!?

19. Exeter Gunner

    Feb 20, 2015, 10:08 #67041

    Chris, your argument is an argument from the balance sheet. We know AFC are very successful financially and that Wenger consistently gets that financially motivated target of 4th. The others are arguing from a footballing perspective though. Genuine overachievement (as opposed to occasionally finishing one place higher than your resources determine) would be to actually win the league with less resources than others, such as Dortmund (twice) and Atletico have done, or even challenge until the very end of the season, such as Liverpool did last year. These 'exceptions' are beginning to tot up, aren't they? That's 4 in 2 seasons. There are very obvious and legit criticisms that can be made of Wenger's style of management, and it's entirely legit to suggest that AFC, with current resources, could do better if these flaws were addressed - not the 'bluster' and 'hot air' that you would like to dismiss it as, because you wish that were true.

20. In Wenger We Trust

    Feb 20, 2015, 8:45 #67040

    Chris, is this your article or is this from another Chris? Whoever it is, it's a brilliant read. An article like this stops me short thinking this website is purely just for anti-Wenger propaganda. Don't let these WOB get you down. With their low IQ they can't grasp the truth. The only thing I would change is at 1) we still have the best man to manage the club! Klopp? Moyes? Please. Wenger it is! But I can understand why you didn't include that because the anti-Wenger rabble heads will explode. Oh wait, that's a good thing! Arsene knows best.

21. Chris

    Feb 20, 2015, 8:21 #67039

    OK, RedPig and Mark from Aylesbury want to see some empirical evidence. Well, there have been numerous analyses looking at financial power versus on-field success across PL clubs and they show that only AW and Ferguson consistently achieved above what their resources dictated – perhaps that’s why they remained in their jobs for so long and why AW is paid so much……? But perhaps the most pertinent is the review of AW’s performance performed for Arsenal Supporters’ Trust by sportingintelligence (google those terms and find an article called ‘Arsene Wenger – what is he good for?’) – a body that commissioned the reivew because they were critical of the manager at the time (18 months ago I’d suggest that since then things have got better with the FA Cup win, Sanchex and Ozil signings etc). The conclusions totally back up what I’m saying although RedPig’s capitulation and change of tack suggests he already knows it. RedPig – you might argue that that is not enough, that Wenger is paid too much but I ask you – based on what? In the fiscally inflated world of football he is paid what he is worth. I live in the real world, where the club pay him what they think he’s worth for what they value – anything else is cloud cuckoo land, I’m afraid, even if as a fellow fan I might wish it weren’t. You can criticise AW’s style of management as much as you like but you are pissing on the wind, it’s all bluster, because the cold hard facts demonstrate what I’ve already outlined – what Ron call’s your ‘cold hard logic’ is nothing of the sort – it’s the confused, fussy headed rantings of the emotionally distressed. Yes, Arsenal have more resources than 14 or 15 clubs (as indicated that our wage bill is usually 4th, but has dropped to 5th highest in the PL) – but that only warrants us finishing 4th or 5th and we usually finish 3rd or 4th, even in these hard times. Occasionally,excpetions occur – such as the recent single season that Dortmund won the Bundesliga. Even Klopp admits they were lucky – an exceptional crop of home grown talent coming together at just the right time – that time being a season that Bayern were in transition. As he says – they took their chance, but look at them since – and now… I personally feel totally convinced that if we’d kept Fab, RVP and Nasri etc together for a bit longer things would be looking very different, just as they would for Dortmund now with Lew, Gotze etc.

22. Ron

    Feb 19, 2015, 22:03 #67033

    RedPig - yr 'empirical evidence' to adduce to support yr point about challenging for titles could be quoted as the Utd title win in 2010 was it (or maybe 2011?). Barely a couple of points scratched v the teams in the top 4 yet won the title in a fairly straightforward manner. They had a top Coach though who put winning at the top of his agenda. These people such as Chris, wont at any cost remove their Wenger blinkers. The hard faced logic you've just uttered there in yr post wont sit easily with such positions.

23. Badarse

    Feb 19, 2015, 20:44 #67027

    One reason to be cheerful? Every time the Little Mozart takes to the pitch. Been offline all day, (I sound so technically aware and knowing when I type that); seems my computer has a virus and pouring the mugful of hot Lemsip over the keyboard only made matters worse. Some exchanges today were so silly, but fun to read, or 'Wobderful', as we say at AKB Central Command.

24. RedPig

    Feb 19, 2015, 20:31 #67026

    Chris – putting aside Wenger for the moment and moving away from the original point I was making. If Chelsea and Man City have such a significant financial advantage over us, then surely we have a similar advantage over 14 or 15 other clubs in the PL? Maybe not such a vast difference but a difference all the same. As only 4 of our league games are against teams with significantly bigger resources, then what is stopping us picking up enough points from the other 34 matches to enable us to put in a serious title challenge (please note I am only saying put in a challenge). Whatever those analysts came up with, I totally believe Arsenal have big enough resources to compete for the title (if they are used properly) and I think you are absolutely wrong to say the ‘enough money to compete’ thing is a fallacy. Yes it might take some extraordinary management but isn’t that one of the reasons Wenger is paid an extraordinary salary? If you think he is justifying his £8m from a sporting perspective then we have very different ideas of what is acceptable. If you think he justifies what he gets paid because of what he makes the club then I find that disappointing. Anyway I’m not denying that Chelsea and Man City have certain advantages. They can afford to take more risks or pay more in wages, regularly sack underperforming managers etc. What they cannot do is effect what we do in games they are not playing in. Another thing they cannot do is persuade our handsomely paid manager to start a season with only 6 defenders. And they could not have stopped him buying the defensive midfielder or a top class keeper we needed either. Who is to say we wouldn’t be competing for the title right now and in previous seasons (in what is now a very average league) if those basic areas had not been so needlessly neglected?! As Mark from Aylesbury so rightly points out, money counts for something but it is the manager that gets to use it that counts as well. Swap Wenger and Mourinho’s positions; does anyone seriously think Mourinho would not be regularly finishing above him in the table ?

25. jjetplane

    Feb 19, 2015, 19:47 #67025

    Bloody hell! Now AKB Central are unleashing weapons of mass empiricism (WOME). Was Locke a gooner? Have a look WESTIE lol and JAMERSON you really must keep up with the 'life of Brian.' Anyway - looks like Arsene FC are in the wrong competition. It's the Europa that's got them going in Shanhai!

26. Westlower

    Feb 19, 2015, 19:34 #67024

    @Jamerson, Badarse already has done a sketch re post 70494. Forbes Top 20 Richest Football Clubs @ Jun 2014, currency in US dollars: Of the English clubs Man U were top with revenue of $551m & value $2.81 billions. 2nd Man City $411m revenue, value $863m. 3rd Chelsea $397m revenue, value $868m. 4th Arsenal $371m, value $1.33 billions. 5th Liverpool $313m, value $691m. 6th Sours $224 revenue, value $514m.

27. Mark from aylesbury

    Feb 19, 2015, 19:18 #67023

    Chris - if we go with this empirical evidence that you quote but we have not seen. Would it not be good of you to perhaps run a model showing revenue of club vs trophy's won across Europe. From that you can extract a mean average and we can then determine if Mr Wenger floats above or below the average, with 1 FA cup win in 10 years puts him and Arsenal under average but then what do we know as only you live in a world of empirical evidence.

28. Chris

    Feb 19, 2015, 18:17 #67021

    RedPig - I don't know how long you have been reading these pages but there have been numerous discussions of several well-respected analyses (of the sort that are done by management and business analysts these days, what with football being a multi-billion dollar business and all that) that have shown that there is a direct relationship between resources available to a club and on-field evidence. Forgive me for not digging them up again but they have been done to death here, even though one or two prefer to ignore them in favour of their own 'intuition'... They all show that Wenger continues to over-achieve with the resources he has - unless you're going to tell me that he doesn't achieve anything because he never wins anything (except one FA Cup), at which point I'll throw my hands in the air and walk away in disbelief and frustration, that's clearly demonstrable and has been demonstrated repeatedly. What happened to Leeds is rare because most clubs are not so stupid as to behave like that, putting short-term success ahead of long-term stability - Rangers being another example of one that did. But anyway, I don't need the analyses to show you are talking nonsense. The landscape may have changed no because of FFP but up until recently, if I inherited 10 billiion quid, and give 2 billion to Stan to buy Arsenal, I'm quite sure that I could then use the other 8 billion quid to buy Arsene a better team and pay the wages to keep the best players in the world happy. We would win things - like the CL and PL. It would certainly be more likely than with the financial ceiling that has been in place for most of the last decade at Arsenal... Here is no such thing as 'enough money to compete' no matter how much your competitors have.It's a fallacy, one conveniently crafted by the likes of yourself becuase it gives you a false yardstick to beat Wenger with, and embraced by the likes of Ron because it bakcs up his negative, pessimistic and somewhat janudiced view of Arsenal as a club in decline....

29. RedPig

    Feb 19, 2015, 17:57 #67017

    Chris – Just by saying something is based on a completely flawed assumption and can be shown to be incorrect isn’t enough on its own mate. I thought you were going to follow that statement with some hard evidence but I am not sure you said anything that was any more provable than what I did. You also claim to live in the land of empirical evidence … but then strangely choose to dismiss the examples where teams with less resources than their rivals have won or challenged for the title and/ or the CL. Labelling them rare exceptions that buck the trend doesn’t automatically mean they don’t count. Surely a better example of a rare exception that bucks the trend is mentioning what happened to Leeds? And you tell Ron and myself that we are living in cloud cuckoo land and yet there you are saying Wenger NEVER underachieves. You even go as far as saying he usually does the opposite. The opposite of underachieving is overachieving is it not? So in what way has Wenger been overachieving may I ask?

30. Chris

    Feb 19, 2015, 17:44 #67015

    Ron - Feel free to dismiss, I know the truth hurts when it doesn't back up what you want to believe. Numerous empirical analyses have shown exactly what I'm talking about but you know that already because we've done it all before. Obviously, I could never match your perceptive views 'where football, clubs, players and coaches' are concerned but I'm on firm ground when I say I know you and Redpig are talking rubbish with this notion of a ceiling beyond which finances have no impact. Redpigs post was a load of rubbish - you fell over yourself to applaud it because you wish what he said was ture.

31. mark from aylesbury

    Feb 19, 2015, 17:18 #67013

    One thing to think about is that Utd's premiership winning team under Fergie was not radically changed under Moyes. Yet that same team collapsed out of the top 4 when not managed in a way that obviously brought out their best achievements. Moving onto Chelsea, are they really that good? Would they stand up to Utd and Arsenal teams at their finest? Yet Chelsea are probably England's best hope of winning the European cup. Mourinho is the key at Chelsea. Our manager has been found out over the last 5 years and patently cannot compete against other top 4 teams when playing head to head. This extends to Europe where a top 4 European team have always knocked us out. Therefore has Wenger changed this year to enable him to overcome this? Maybe there is some evidence that something is happening at Arsenal but it is fraught with setbacks and I personally feel it may serve as a platform for a new manager. Money counts for something i.e. Northampton Town would need to be artificially pumped to get to where the top clubs are. But beyond that and of equal importance if not more, it is the manager that counts.

32. Ron

    Feb 19, 2015, 16:39 #67012

    Hi Chris - Its all perception and opinion but you dont live in a land of 'empirical evidence' mate. My opinion may well be 'wrong', ive no problem with that but equally so, if you really believe your own views are shaped by the rigours of evidence where football, Clubs, players and coaches etc etc are concerned i fear that's its you that lives in 'cloud cuko' land. Each to our own though and we move on.

33. jjetplane

    Feb 19, 2015, 16:36 #67011

    Your answer is in your Post Name. You are still at Highbury!

34. Westlower

    Feb 19, 2015, 16:10 #67010

    It's all down to an individuals expectations. A reminder that the 'good old days' weren't always that. Herbert Chapman's league finishing positions were 2,11,10,9,14,1,2,1,(1), then sadly passed away midway though the 1933/34 season when AFC were champions again. Bertie Mee's record 7,9,4,12,1,5,2,10,16,17. George Graham 4,6,1,4,1,10,4,(12), then sacked in Feb 95 when we finished 12th. Wenger is ridiculed by some for never dropping out of the top 4. How ridiculous is that?

35. jjetplane

    Feb 19, 2015, 16:05 #67009

    ha ha Early Morning Rain with Paul Weller but no, there is simply no Arsenal to say goodbye to as they are now just a financial institution that happen to promote some exhibitionist form of Fuseball. I have supported football (3 divisions), college basketball and Football since Arsene FC last won a trophy of note and feel very little for a club I no longer recognise as anything honest or sporting. I post on here because I did support a/the Arsenal for many years and well because the medium is the message and this site is one of many ways to connect with 'the greater good.' It is also fun and WESTIE I know you are more an Arsenal man than a lot of those who drift into the Wok with their shopping or their company plastic but have to baulk at your allegiance to Wenger. I don't buy it! Ps I feel some fireworks are about to go off! pps The Europa is to be a way into the CL next season so 5th will be fine! You could not make it up. Oh to achieve! ......

36. Westlower

    Feb 19, 2015, 15:47 #67008

    ODE to JJ; All my bags are packed I'm ready to go, I'm standing here outside the door, I hate to wake you up to say goodbye, but the dawn is breaking it's early morn, the taxi's waiting blowing his horn, there's so many times I let you down, now the time has come to leave you. I'm leaving on a JETPLANE, don't know when I'll be back again, oh Arsenal I hate to go. Words by John Denver.

37. Chris

    Feb 19, 2015, 15:47 #67007

    RedPig (and Ron) - What a poor post based on a completely flawed assumption that can be shown to be incorrect. There is NO CEILING beyond which finances make no difference - there's a strong relationship between achievement and success - and Wenger continues to be on the right side of that relationship. You might like to think otherwise, but that's because you both live in cloud cuko land. I live in the land of empirical evidence and know you are wrong. Yes, it can happen that occasionally a team with lesser resources crops up that bucks the clear trend, either through luck or exceptional management, but the are very much exceptions that prove the rule. The fact is that we NEVER underachieve & usually do the opposite whereas others - like the Dortmund and Utd teams mentioned - have done so, and severely in recent times. That's an incredible record and is very hard to achieve. Unless you want to save up resources for a title tilt once a decade, consistency is key - we've see with Leeds et al what that kind of boom - bust thinking can lead to. SO Ron, it's about time you opened your eyes because you're not seeing very clearly mate. Unless you want another try, you failed to show me anything to suggest that Arsenal are a 'once great club' and your endorsement of Redpig's comment shows me why you might erroneously think that. To put it simply - Redpig has confused the signal (relationship between finances and success) and the noise (rare exceptions that don't obscure the pattern but add variation around it. (For the sake of clarity - I'm not the Chris who wrote the article, in case that wasn't obvious)

38. Ron

    Feb 19, 2015, 15:11 #67003

    RedPig - thats perhaps the best post that's been made on here for years mate.Read it and heed it Westie and Co, however bum squeaking it is for you, your eyes might yet open!

39. jjetplane

    Feb 19, 2015, 15:05 #67001

    Well if a lot more people felt like me and walked away your big new brave ****hole of a club would be down the swanee without a bladder to piss in! Keep it! It's boring! I've got a new club to support and I do not miss your nightmare and I have said before wESTIE you are no great shakes as a supporter of Arsene FC as you rarely go because why - it's a ****ing yawn. I look forward to the collapse of the lot of it. Read the piece overpage ...

40. Westlower

    Feb 19, 2015, 13:34 #66996

    @JJ Whether we like it or not the top clubs are multi-million pound businesses and have to be run by professional people with financial acumen. Not enough credit is given to the way AFC is run. Emotional fans having a say would be a disaster, as they'd be completely out of their depth. You cannot bring a pub team football mentality to the elite clubs.

41. jjetplane

    Feb 19, 2015, 13:07 #66993

    Still a giant in my book of Arsenal but the economics has overstayed by a decade. Which is the greater crime?

42. Westlower

    Feb 19, 2015, 12:33 #66990

    @JJ In his best years 89& 91 GG was a great football man but sadly he lost his way producing some awful displays with mediocre teams. Poor signings influenced by back handers was a sorry way to go.

43. jjetplane

    Feb 19, 2015, 12:15 #66989

    Sustainable Model blah blah blah. JAMERSON you is one crazzee guy but pray tell - vot is this 'steamin'. Sexual act - non?

44. AMG

    Feb 19, 2015, 12:08 #66988

    Yes lot's to be optimistic about... if you were born yesterday! I thought last season was supposed to be a 'spring board to something better', last I checked we're lower in the league with less points, despite the purchase of Alexis and the non-sale of star players(you'd have to point them out to me????)

45. jjetplane

    Feb 19, 2015, 11:31 #66986

    Superb REDPIG the last decade has been nothing short of a sporting corruption at the highest level. They have knowingly and willingly exercised footballing restraint at the behest of financial gain for a handful of individuals. Whatever GG did he was a football man, unlike the currency of the present mature economics student running the show who could have just as well have been working at Morrisons or another supermarket leader to have same effect. He looks and is completely out of place. But then football has changed and the championship is as boring as the PL now, the CL is awful and thank something or another there is still the non-league. Just about. For the last decade been watching matches on Saturdays with 3.00 kick offs and when I was a ST holder at Highbury I hated Sunday matches. Tuesday nights are good too and the way Arsene's softly-softly approach is going it could be thurs & Suns next season for the believers. Looking at the competition in the Europa shindig, Arsene would not fancy a humiliation in that.

46. maguiresbridge gooner

    Feb 19, 2015, 11:31 #66985

    Red Member, good post, as was something similar from theopants superstar. I believe if this regime especially the manager and his fans had their way they'd have everything up to 96 airbrushed out of history.

47. jeff wright

    Feb 19, 2015, 11:30 #66984

    John, Wenger never defended the league title either and he had 3 chances to do so. We defended it back in the Chapman era and it was that era when we were the worlds top club that set the benchmark for AFC . Wenger, despite all of the hype , has never taken the club to those heights . All of this he has qualified for Europe for the past 19 donkeys years is just money talking there is nothing else apart from pyrrhic victories and 'heroic defeats' that it will all be remembered by.

48. billthered

    Feb 19, 2015, 11:13 #66983

    Hi I have been missing for a long time mainly because I can't get my head around the money orientated game as it is today but let me educate some of you about the history of OUR great club.We have won the league in the thirties,forties,fifties,seventies,eighties,nineties and the noughties missing the sixties was a bit of a blow as it was the era of my involvement with the mighty reds.We must now win the league within the next five seasons to keep that run going.Unlike our pals at the other end of the Seven Sisters road we dont consider ourselves a top club unless we win championships a very sad lot indeed oh my god 1961 and they still think their big.

49. john

    Feb 19, 2015, 11:08 #66982

    to all the pessimists criticising my comments. im fully aware of herbert chapman and george graham and their success . history proves post 1940 success was sporadic and under graham we could not retain the league. it took a physio to win the league in the 70s.we should have dominated in the late 90s and into 2000s

50. RedPig

    Feb 19, 2015, 10:58 #66981

    If someone feels there is a need to point out reasons to be cheerful then obviously there is a lot that isn’t right. The part of the article that most got me was the argument that finishing 4th is not an underachievement because we’ve got the 4th biggest resources. That’s far too simplistic. Instead the point should be made that the resources Arsenal have are more than enough to win the title and the CL and therefore to never seriously challenge for either is very much an underachievement. Comparing Man Utd last season and Dortmund this is all well and good because that selective thinking fits the argument. How about comparing them in other seasons though? Like when they were champions? How about looking at Atletico Madrid last season? The finances argument is too flawed and besides, the financial advantages that Chelsea and Man City have can only go so far anyway. Think of a car race where the top speed the track allows is 200mph. If you have a car than can go at 220mph then you can win that race if you drive it well enough. Just because two of your rivals have cars that can go at 350mph or more doesn’t mean they’re guaranteed to win. The football equivalent is that however rich you are, you can only have 11 players on the pitch at any one time and have a squad of 25 or so. Make no mistake, Wenger easily has the resources to always be able to put 11 top class players on the field at all times and a very strong squad. There is nothing Chelsea or Man City can do to prevent that so merely finishing 4th after not even challenging for the title is just not good enough. That so many accept what little he delivers tells you all you need to know about how the man has manipulated the way Arsenal fans perceive their club. We are paying the highest prices, Wenger is one of the highest paid managers and our wage bill is massive. The demand and pressure to succeed should reflect that but the expectations are the one thing that has been lowered since the move from Highbury.

51. jeff wright

    Feb 19, 2015, 10:26 #66979

    This we were never a big club anyway malarkey before Arsene arrived from Japan is just another AKB ploy to try and excuse Wenger's failures. It's strange that Mee and Graham managed in a very short time span to win a trophy in Europe with this small club ,against it must be said at the time top sides,while the great genius Arsene has failed miserably to do so in 19 years of trying . It's true he has won more FA Cups and league titles but then again he had longer to do this in than the other managers did .As for the 4th place trophy that was not even on the agenda for past managers,they had to win real ones.

52. Red Member

    Feb 19, 2015, 9:38 #66978

    can't believe the comment from John on here. Arsenal had a much more dominant period in the 1930s than Wenger ever achieved at Arsenal! it could even be argued that George Graham was more successful than Wenger as he won more trophies per year than Wenger has done.Please stop being conned by the club into thinking that the club was founded in 1996. It wasn't!

53. Tony Evans

    Feb 19, 2015, 8:18 #66977

    Ron - I missed the Shilts programme though am not surprised it made you feel old. I suppose it was a long time ago now but as you say it doesn't seem like it somehow.

54. Finsbury Joe

    Feb 19, 2015, 0:10 #66976

    PMSL when I read this, love this post modern ironic take of a failing club in decline. Humour is an admirable trait. More! More!

55. John F

    Feb 18, 2015, 22:51 #66975

    Rob, sorry mate I do not see the squad in the same way as you.It is overloaded with players who want to play in the middle and as a result we are short of a genuine Dennis Skinner unless the thinking is that Gibbs can fill that role .The defence is still short of quality and the fact that was not addressed in the summer has cost us points.The jury is still out regarding the goalkeeping situation. I have got to admire the man in Paris who kept on trying to board the train despite the abuse from the Chelsea racists, although one of the idiots claimed they were not being racist just singing support for John Terry.Arsenal will still fill the Utd allocation with the northern based support the club now gets.

56. jjetplane

    Feb 18, 2015, 22:20 #66974

    What yer gonna listen to at half time?

57. jeff wright

    Feb 18, 2015, 21:49 #66973

    Those mugs were only there for the beer MG. There are a few who go to the home games that watch more of the proceedings on the concourses at bars than in their seats.Probably because it's easier to get to the bog for a piss.Just watched Real beat Schalke 2-0 away we are not at the races compared with them in Europe. This after 19 years of Arsene's magic.

58. ando

    Feb 18, 2015, 21:11 #66971

    your ambition matches that of the club, are you the head of their PR dept?

59. maguiresbridge gooner

    Feb 18, 2015, 21:01 #66970

    jw, that reminds me of the time I had some excursions into club level some years ago thanks to a mates season ticket, there were a couple of mouthy AKB's in their smart suits flashing their cash(they were mostly everywhere then) thinking they were better than everybody else singing his praises when they decided to find out how many free pints they could drink at half time(they were free for just the duration of the interval and already poured sitting out on long tables and you could basically lift as many as you could) it was pretty obvious they did what they said as five minutes into the second half after the first rendition to their messiah they were off to the bogs, ten minutes later they were away again and on it went throughout the second half running for a piss every ten minutes or so when all around them were pissing themselves laughing at them and it was taking longer for then to get back as the alcohol kicked in, Hilarious, with fifteen minutes to go they were gone and never came back, and I never saw them again.

60. Hiccup

    Feb 18, 2015, 20:52 #66969

    Yes Westie, leave the moaning to the dark moonies. The game has moved on. Either encompass it or get out the kitchen. The TV paymasters are what help arsenal to make fortunes to which you are so proud of. Or is it because the FA Cup doesn't make as much money as the CL which you disapprove of moving games for? Fans being inconvenienced is surely a small price to pay for the millions swilling around in the game. In fact, reason number 13 to be happy - A day's holiday wasted to get to Mondays game and a knackered Tuesday at work after getting home at 3am from the game.

61. theopants superstar

    Feb 18, 2015, 20:15 #66968

    May I suggest to John, the writer of the third post down, who wrote 'we have never been a man utd or liverpool with a sustained period of domination' that he does a little bit of research into the history of the club he apparently supports. If he does, he will realise that Arsenal were the first of the acknowledged modern day 'big clubs' to have a period of 'domination' way back in the 1930's!! I know that some people think that Arsenal only became established when Wenger took over but a quick glance at the clubs history pre-1996 will reveal a rich tapestry of achievements way before then. It's nonsense to try and suggest otherwise.

62. Tony

    Feb 18, 2015, 20:14 #66967

    FFS Arsenal fans complaining about the cup game being moved to monaday to be shown on a free to view station which millions can watch.Would you rather it was on a subscription channel?Get real muppets.Westlower have you ever heard of coaches.If the club want to reward travelling fans give them free travel Kroenke you tight git

63. Th14afc

    Feb 18, 2015, 20:01 #66966

    Nice article I agree positivity around the gunners is very welcome especially on this site but beware of the dark forces who will emerge and berate you for it

64. jeff wright

    Feb 18, 2015, 19:48 #66964

    jjetplane,Arsene is more concerned with financial matters than other top managers are because this is what he survives on.It's amazing to learn that if he had lost the FAC final to Hull, after already having blew a winning title chance, that he would still have kept his job. Who els in the game after 9 years of failure could have done this?

65. jjetplane

    Feb 18, 2015, 18:43 #66963

    Monday is the new Thursday! I will try and catch it on LW. Joke. Funny stuff JW Think the one in your shadow tries a bit too much and the strain is now in the critical zone. I thought the AKBs were the happy ones ..... Loving the Wenger deconstruction and what is found. A very ordinary accountant type who happened on to football as a means of 'cleaning up.'

66. Hiccup

    Feb 18, 2015, 18:00 #66961

    This Monday night football melarkey is really screwing things up. As a TV licence fee payer I'm sick of having the TV schedule messed up. New Tricks will once again be cancelled! I feel another letter to Points Of View will be on its way!

67. jeff wright

    Feb 18, 2015, 17:33 #66960

    Westie,the TV bosses had this Monday night peak viewing time slot lined up for United and us before the draw was made !

68. jeff wright

    Feb 18, 2015, 17:11 #66959

    Thanks Baddie,but as you know the truth is often stranger than fiction. I was going to say you couldn't make it up , but that would be stating the obvious!

69. Westlower

    Feb 18, 2015, 17:03 #66958

    The BBC has moved the OT cup tie to the Monday evening slot. The game finishes after the last train back to London has departed. The TV paymasters continue to run football.

70. maguiresbridge gooner

    Feb 18, 2015, 17:00 #66957

    The third post on here says it all, and tells us all we need to know (not that we don't already) and because of fans like that why we're also ran's and have been for years, and why we'll never be a truly big club under this old fraud of a manager or indeed any manager. It's really not worth a retort he's to far gone.

71. jeff wright

    Feb 18, 2015, 16:58 #66956

    It really is a question of is Wenger over or under achieving in the Prem with the resources that he has available to him. He is certainly not over achieving by finishing 4th every season and anything less than 4th place this season would be below par . Everyone knows that he is past his best and giving him that three year contract was a statement of the lack of ambition that there is under steady as she goes skipper Silent Stan regime. The statement by slippery Ivan awhile back that we had to all work together with other clubs for mutual benefits ( financial ones) showed where the mindset of the current regime is at .This showed on Gazdis's part a complete lack of any knowledge of the historical rivalries that exists in English club football and that helped to motivate supporters for decades .This has now been largely replaced by the theatre goer type crowd though there has always been a few Brian's lurking about before this scenario began .Also we have the tourists enjoying ( or not) the Emirates Experience as part of their holiday itinerary .There is obviously a good deal of slight of hand chicanery with unsold tickets and empty seats portrayed as being 60+ attendances going on .In fact spin doctoring type statements are the norm now at AFC, Wenger's laughable recent FAC cup ones when he claimed he had prioritized winning it over the European Cup in the past being an example of this. When so many lies and deceptions are being carried out at the club you know that something is not right. Sanchez's body language in Sunday's game did not suggest that of a man that is overjoyed at life and if he can carry on producing the early season heroics in this second period is not looking very likely .Wenger still has no idea of what his best eleven is and is still sticking to his old failed before pre-ematch tactics and substitutions system . This malarkey helps to give an advantage to our opponents and helps to explain the poor results away at Chelsea,Stoke, Swansea ,Southampton and Tottenham. A point at Anfield was on the face of things a good result,but we were playing against ten men for most of the second half and yet still couldn't manage to hold on to our 2-1 lead . It's going to be close at the death for the 4th place this term , I can't see United not getting third with their easier run in than our one and them not involved in Europe . They even have the cup tie home advantage over us ,and Wenger's record at OT is nothing short now days of being a disgrace. However we should not be scrapping in the Prem like rabid dogs over a bone with Saints ,Liverpool,spuds for 4th spot this purely down to Wenger's inept management .

72. Badarse

    Feb 18, 2015, 16:47 #66955

    So funny jeff, loved it.

73. maguiresbridge gooner

    Feb 18, 2015, 16:44 #66954

    chris dee, good post, articles like this aren't written at the end of the season, and if they are, it's every nine years.

74. Tony Evans

    Feb 18, 2015, 16:04 #66953

    Chris - I completely agree with what you are saying. Wenger is really a victim of his own success. He raised the bar (with plenty of help from GGs defensive legacy)and that coupled with the false promises made before leaving Highbury is what has fuelled much of the anger and frustration at the current situation (and since about 2007) where we always seem to be flattering to deceive. Things are improving slowly but for me Wenger is still a massive stumbling block.

75. Ron

    Feb 18, 2015, 15:57 #66952

    Tony - There was a decent prog on ITV 3 last night about Shilts. Did you see it? Made me feel old when it showed a bit about Forest v Liverpool in the old EC and finding i could recall it like it was played last week mate!! EG - just 'near' incoherent? Are you sure or are you just being kind?

76. Chris

    Feb 18, 2015, 15:48 #66950

    Hi Ron & Tony - I hear what you're saying but I honestly think the same could have been said at any point during the time that I've supported the club (since '77). We've always been a top club but lacking the ambition to really push the boat out in a way that's required to really dominate domestically or have significant success in Europe. I actually think the noises that are coming out of the club are as ambitious as they've ever been (save for the famous b*llocks after the Invincibles season when we were told that we were going to be getting all the best players from Europe in an attempt to dominate for years - maybe they forgot to add 'under 17' before 'players..). The fact is that our place in the league shows we haven't caught up with the big boys yet but the fact we're now buying a better quality of player (even if we still can't compete for the very best) suggests we might. Are we really further away now from success than we were in most of the 70s up to the mid 80s or in the mid 90s? I don't think so.

77. jeff wright

    Feb 18, 2015, 15:37 #66949

    MG, I can just picture Brian and Colesybollox, along with Jamerson and the rest of the gang with their happy shiny round faces glowing, giving out the OLES! As another lower opponent gets beaten at the coliseum. It’s good to be here ! Cries out Brian adding,Good old Arsenal ! A man sitting in the seat behind him sighs and shakes his head and says that Brian is obviously just trying to go through life without looking stupid. It’s obviously though not working out too well for him. Brian is unperturbed by these comments . He leaps up punching the air gleefully with his fist shrieking FIVE GOALS! This sets Colesybollox , just back from the bar after downing another beer ,off into a another moronic ' There's only one Arsene Wenger' chant . The AKB's are having more fun than chimps at a tea party. Never mind the poor league position the thousands of empty seats and the awful away results ,because at the coliseum in la la Wenger land, everything is wonderful. You couldn't make it up.

78. Tony Evans

    Feb 18, 2015, 15:28 #66948

    Ron T - Very well put sir. I certainly do remember Shilton going to Forest, and that's the difference between a man like Cloughie and our fella. Clough really wanted to be top dog and would soon have told Kronke to take a hike! Wenger is complicit in his own downfall but likes his £8M a year too much to rock the boat. Whether or not Wenger is being hamstrung by the board the buck stops with him. His silence on our continuing failure to step up plate and really challenge the big boys has either been bought or he really is living in cloud cuckoo land - either way it's his fault entirely that we are enduring groundhog season after groundhog season, and he should either shape up, speak up or ship out. The sooner the better.

79. Rob

    Feb 18, 2015, 15:28 #66947

    The most cheerful point for me is that, suddenly, we have a very deep squad. See how difficult it is to position all of your preferred players in the starting eleven. When was the last time we had this fantastic dilemma?

80. Exeter Gunner

    Feb 18, 2015, 15:27 #66946

    Lots of good constructive points here - with a couple of attempts to undermine them via near-incoherent 'funny stories' in the midst. MUFC v AFC live on the BBC! That doesn't happen too often these days.

81. maguiresbridge gooner

    Feb 18, 2015, 15:06 #66945

    How can we have any reasons to be cheerful when we have an old past it manager holding us back. And when ever we get a win (especially against third rate opposition)have a feel good factor when there he is (with some of his second raters)squawking back. But obviously it doesn't bother some as they (as usual) think were back.

82. Ron Thomas

    Feb 18, 2015, 14:56 #66944

    Tony - im sure that you will recall the time when Clough signed Shilton and said he d just 'bought another 12 points' to add to what they would have garnered anyway. Would an Arsenal team have had the mettle to go there last night and face Ibra and Cavani without crumpling? Yr right on Wenger. Its fair to say that there is probably much more to it than Wengers own predispositions. Nothing is ever as black and white as what it seems like in life is it mate.The Board are insulated by their own silence aren't they so AW gets all of the stick.The thing that clinches it though, is that if Wenger is the lightening conductor, then he s a willing one. If it was the case that he wasnt able to manage as effectively as he felt he could due to the Board hamstringing him, he would have spoken out by now or at least hinted at frustration. His natural bent is to whinge and find excuses as we all know, so if he was personally held back its almost a given that he would have said as much. Hes paid well to keep stum though and hes settled for it, thus hes the man to blame though the Boards approach will hobble a new man as you say. Wenger has took the kings shilling and compromised any ambition he personally may have had. For 8 Million pa i suppose many of us would too. We could be proved wrong re the Henry theory, but i think we re right. Hes well versed in the way the Clubs ran, he wont seek any declarations of 'ambition to match his own', he ll be delighted just to follow his messiah, rock no boats and bask in the adulation of the returning hero once more.The Board will love it as they ll see it as a licence to maintain silence and thus their comfort plus the long stop is that Wenger will be there peeking out at Henry from behind the Diamond Club curtains. Its so incestuous and the bonus for the Club is that they get a cheap new puppet Coach.

83. Badarse

    Feb 18, 2015, 14:41 #66943

    He waded through the swamp with his comrades, they were singing 'Hi Ho Silver Lining', as they trudged. 'Harken!', said westlower, who was at the head of the group, raising his arm to halt the group, and to allow a pair of chickens to cluck across their path. A few had no idea what westlower had said, Rocky RIP had memories jolted of Parken and went into a dance routine. Badarse tried to join in but a wellie had got stuck in the mud and he fell headlong. Meanwhile the intrepid band of brothers, and one sister, had inched towards a groaning noise some way beyond. They came upon this poor dishevelled creature, sitting amongst a sea of detritus. Old empty baked bean cans, egg shells, and rotting contents from sardine tins. Above the ramshackle shelter was a sign proclaiming HIGHBURY. The creature had egg all over it's face. 'Verily I say unto you, lest we are in doubt, speak of who thou art, knave!' uttered westlower. No one understood him so goonercolesyboy said, 'Oi mate, who are you and what you doing here?' The creature mournfully replied, 'I am old fat of the swamp. Don't look at me, don't call me fat!' Big full tears dropped down his cheeks as he began to wail. 'It's not fair, nothings fair. Life is miserable and I am glum. My team is Arsenal and it isn't worth living anymore. I used to moan and gripe, whine and whinge, and just grumble and mumble. Then all my friends moved away, even my enemies deserted me. I am so hollow. Nothing has meaning. I used to rage and rail at life, now I am too spent and cannot be bothered anymore.' Badarse felt sorry for 'old fat' and offered him a polo mint as his breath was rancid. 'Ohhh.' groaned old fat. 'Even my sweet has a hole in it. It's not fair.' Badarse tried to sooth the moribund creature. 'Come on old fella. Life can be beautiful, enjoy the moment.' 'No, even if it seems alright now it will turn out all wrong. Why get excited and why be happy now, later I will be sad.' chris had begun playing his spoons, GoonerRon had begun singing in a high falsetto, 'One Arsene Wenger', and Rocky RIP was shaking his knees again, so they had a ding dong. It didn't improve matters.After a while the troupe slowly continued on their way, splashing away from old fat. In a way, the group knew old fat was happy in his mental mire. They then heard more wailing and gnashing of teeth, coming from different directions. Clearly there were many sad folk, with a similar outlook here in the swamp.

84. jolly roger

    Feb 18, 2015, 14:36 #66942

    The captain was shaking with fury. What the hell had happened? A modern Warship marooned on the equator and a call needed to be made to the Admiralty. Heads would roll for this, but one thing he knew, he hadn't got this far to pay the price for a monumental cock-up. The captain turned round “Bos’n, Bos’n! Why the hell aren’t those engines in operation, get down to the engine room and find out what the hell is going on” “Aye Aye sir” The Bos’n leapt to command and made haste to the engine room. He could feel his own anger rising, he wasn't going to have this sorry mess fall on his shoulders. “Briggs what the frigging hell is going on? The captain is on the warpath and there’ll be hell to pay. Briggs the chief engineer looked shifty. “A bolt sheared off sir, bad luck….. The Bos’n erupted “Bad luck, Bad luck, Let me look at that bloody bolt” “Aye Aye Bos’n”. Briggs bellowed “Engineer Colsey bring that bloody bolt over. Colsey grinned slyly and brought over the bolt. The Bos’n turned ashen. “What the hell is this? That’s not sheared, it was never attached in the first place. You’d better have a good story about this… Engineer Briggs took the Bos’n aside. “Look Sir, you know how the boys are, they’ll try and cover for each other but I can’t have all my men lynched for the mistakes of one man.” “Who was it Briggs?” “It was Jameson sir, he forgot to tighten it I reckon…… “ “Tighten it! I’ll tighten something round his bloody neck, Is this the same Jameson who you had to rescue from Madam Chow’s in Macau, Pissed as a newt, in a dress and make-up? Lucky the Captain never found out about that. But this time his life will not be worth living! I Promise you that” Further adventures upon the HMS Albatross to come…..

85. Tony Evans

    Feb 18, 2015, 14:07 #66940

    Ron and Chris - interesting debate fellas. It's all smoke and mirrors with Arsenal now. We have all the trappings of being a true footballing force - the ground, support, tradition, revenue and owners with deep pockets, but not a hint of any real ambition to go with it. Yes we are more active at the right end of the transfer market now, but always still manage to leave ourselves short somewhere. Is that purely down to Wenger's incompetence or is there more to it than that. Look at Courtois's performance last night - would Arsenal have sneaked away with a 1-1? I doubt it because we don't have a world class keeper. We just do enough to maintain position but never seem to want to go beyond that, and really make a statement of intent. This frustrating trait probably goes beyond the manager (although his stubborn I'm right and everyone else is wrong attitude surely does not help) and right through to board level, and shows no sign of changing anytime soon. I still remain convinced that a change of manager would make a positive difference but, as Ron says, there is a glass ceiling at Arsenal that any manager, under the current ownership, would find hard to break through. That is certainly the impression anyway.

86. jeff wright

    Feb 18, 2015, 13:44 #66938

    This article is the same old jam tomorrow optimism that some have swallowed for donkeys years. We are 10 points worse off in the league than last season how the heck is this progress? We have less chance of finishing 4th in the league ,despite the new signings and millions spent on players . The FAC is just a lottery with luck playing a big part in it and can never be used to judge how a team is doing regarding progress.Some teams have won it andthen been relegated ! Eirope is beyond Wenger he had his chances and blew them now he is too old and too far into the comfy zone of only needing to play in the Champions League to make it job done. With our huge wage bill compared with that of Southampton,Liverpool and Tottenham, we should be competing for the Prem title and not 4th place with those sides. Question ,when was the last time that we were in a mathematical position since 2004 on the last day of the season to be able to win the Prem title > ?

87. Gaz

    Feb 18, 2015, 13:15 #66936

    When factoring in 'trophy droughts' its worth remembering that many of them were not managed by just the one manager. Indeed I think I'm right in saying that before last year Wengers nine year drought was the longest period of time any Arsenal manager had gone without winning a trophy...

88. Sing it!

    Feb 18, 2015, 13:15 #66935

    'Racist club, racist fans, racist captain. Racist club, racist fans I say. Racist club, racist fans, racist captain, being racist in the Chelsea way'

89. Ron

    Feb 18, 2015, 12:41 #66934

    Hi Chris - i take yr point on historic trophy droughts. Its well made, but such is the sea change in football post PL, what went before it is now consigned to its own separate history. The droughts we ve had in the past occurred at a time when the gravitas and potential of the Club wasnt really and practically that far removed from the Utds and Liverpools, but the management of the respective Clubs was. Nowadays, the changes needed to drag AFC up to Citys and Chelsea s level is monstrously big and getting bigger. It isnt just money that would bridge the gap either. Money has always been a far too convenient reason to explain Arsenals malaise, its only at best a partial reason why we haven't genuinely competed for so long. Theres a well ****ded culture at Arsenal that says what theyve got is what they want and what they are is where they want to be. Its a happily built glass ceiling which could be broken if there was a willingness there. In my view there isnt. I believe theyve written off reaching beyond the level we re at and its shows on the pitch. Our comparative position now to what was last year for instance tells much, yet its ignored really isnt it. AFC are content to have enough quality in its ranks just to stave off the pack behind them, yet we re finding it harder to hold them all off as each Season occurs. Theres no gtee AFC are going to get 4th yet.The Tottenhams and Liverpools wont relent, while Arsenal get fat as they over dose on the commercial lead we ve got on them for now. Commercially things are rolling Arsenals way and it blinds us to the reality of things on the pitch from where theyve took their eye off the ball. The gaps widening 'footballistically' as they say in Premier League parlance. Arsenal are good at marketing now, not so clever at the very activity they exist to do. Its just me view, daft as it may be mate. AFC are playing with fire as i see it, pretty much like M and S shut their eyes and did for so many years in retailing till the floorboards collapsed.

90. Chris

    Feb 18, 2015, 12:16 #66933

    Ron - How can yo say Arsenal are a faded force? Based on what? The fact we've only won a sole FA Cup in the last decade? We've had similar trophy droughts before and that was when the competition was more even (i.e. no petrodollars). Can you justify that sentiment? Because unless you are simply saying "we've had great teams form tie to time in the past, but haven't got one now" (which I agree with) at the moment it looks a but daft to me...

91. Red Member

    Feb 18, 2015, 12:16 #66932

    nicely written by one of the many brainwashed cult supporters that now inhabit the Emirates. Arsenal are currently 5th in the PL. If we finish in 5th then that will be our worst finish in 20 years. How is that an improvement? I appreciate that we can't win the league every season but it would be nice to compete for it again every so often. I dont recall that happening in the last decade unless you count our numerous capitulations when the going gets tough.

92. Gaz

    Feb 18, 2015, 12:16 #66931

    @Exeter Gunner; Well played fella...you absolutely stole my thunder with the 'many of these points could've been made any time in the last decade'...

93. jjetplane

    Feb 18, 2015, 11:19 #66925

    More interesting than the above is the possibility that Chelsea could be in big trouble with UEFA re their historically intolerant fans. Perfect scenario would be for them to be kicked out of competition resulting in a PL meltdown for their winning aspirations. That's the stuff I dream about! lol!

94. Exeter Gunner

    Feb 18, 2015, 11:08 #66923

    Many of these points could've been made any time in the last decade. We're always 'about to'. AFC are stuck in a holding pattern. It won't alter until there are big changes at the club, but why would anyone currently there want to risk changing things? They're all being handsomely rewarded by maintaining the status quo.

95. jjetplane

    Feb 18, 2015, 11:05 #66922

    I assume this kind of Positive rubbish will be dropped from planes onto the streets of north Lundun so the people can see just what a marvel resides in their midst. How big was the print run? lol! I only just managed the sub headings and would much rather see a JAMERSON comedy sketch (serious piece) above. That that would be fun and positive by turns. The instruction above by it's very nature is negative. Sanchez will have had enough of it come the end of a busless season .......

96. lance peters

    Feb 18, 2015, 10:47 #66919

    waste of an article. we shud be feeling nervous because our only hope of a trophy is the fa cup and we have an away game to a team that we cannot beat on their worst day. we were never in the running for the league this season and currently sit in 5th position battling to qualify for a competition we will never win under the current coach and board.

97. john

    Feb 18, 2015, 10:41 #66918

    i agree. it is good to see a rational account of arsenal without all the negativity. we have never been a man utd or liverpool with a sustained period of domination. arsene wenger raised expectation with the success he achieved in his early years with us. we would be challenging with man utd for honours if it was not for the money at chelsea and now man city.we are always top four and we are gradually catching the top two with our last few signings.the next few years could be a new wave of success...so lets be positive and support arsene and arsenal

98. Ron

    Feb 18, 2015, 10:30 #66917

    A flash stadium and french elan doesnt make an 'elite Club' Chris. Its an elite domestic brand though, if thats what floats your boat. There always are facets of the Club that create an air of optimism. AFC have perfected the art of persuading your good self and many others that those facets are an end in themselves. As a footballing entity though, Arsenal are a faded reflection of a once great Club. Youre applying masking tape over the reality, which no longer fools all of the punters all of the time.

99. chris dee

    Feb 18, 2015, 10:17 #66915

    Articles like this should wait until the end of the season. If no trophy is won then it doesn't matter how many goals he scores or how many body swerves Sanchez performs it means nothing. United and Spurs wasted money?Spurs are in a final and we face United away in the Cup. An elite European club?Really? I still can't locate that Champions League D V D where we lifted the cup like an elite club or are we to be happy with just qualifying and being beaten in the latter stages by the real elite clubs? Some other points show that, sadly,finishing 4th and accepting City and Chelsea will out achieve us even if they 'bought it' many fans are happy and smug with our current position. Ambitious clubs are not happy that the 'future will be bright'.Football is about the here and now.I won't console myself with thoughts of the future if United knock us out of the Cup