Does the Champions League Matter?

Absence should enhance Premier League chances



Does the Champions League Matter?

2006: As close as we got


Following our glorious failure in Monaco recently, we are once again out of the Champions League at the first knockout stage. However, as I write this during the international break, we look reasonably well placed to qualify for an 18th consecutive season next year. That would equal Man United’s record for English clubs, with only Real Madrid ahead of us (by one year).

As I contemplate the remaining fixtures of those teams still in contention for a top four finish, trying to figure out how many points we can afford to drop, I find myself wondering why I care so much. More the point, given that it is becoming increasingly difficult to qualify unless you are bankrolled by foreign fossil fuels, do I care too much?

In almost two decades of Champions League participation, we have rarely looked capable of winning it. In 2004, the Invincibles blew perhaps our best chance on paper (in what remains my most painful memory of Highbury), but even then a Mourinho managed Porto would have awaited us in the final and Arsene has yet to beat him in a dozen attempts. Who knows what might have been had Jens not been sent off in the 2006 final, but despite our brave rearguard action we were probably beaten by a better team on the night and they could have been a goal up if Jens hadn’t walked. We were utterly battered in the 2009 semi final by a United team that went on to be outclassed in the final. Aside from those three years, I can remember none in which it ever really crossed my mind that we would go on to lift the trophy. Compare that the teams mentioned in the opening paragraph. During the same period United have won the competition twice and lost two finals. Madrid have won it three times, having also won it the year before Arsenal first entered.

An honest appraisal of our current squad doesn’t fill me with much confidence that we will fare any better next year. How I hope to eat those words next May, but I doubt many reading this will really disagree. Yet when Wenger said recently that it might be better to be knocked out at the group stages and win the Europa League, he was vilified, even though he was only joking. The mere suggestion that a trophy might be worth more than another routine exit from the Champions League was dismissed out of hand. Obviously it is a trophy that has been shockingly devalued by the participation of teams like Swansea, Hull, Fulham and Spurs, but it is still a European trophy.

Different clubs have different ambitions, of course. Champions League qualification was the absolute pinnacle of achievement for that mob down the road a few years ago and that is fine for a club without a league title in half a century. It should not be considered success for the Arsenal, particularly now that the financial shackles have been somewhat loosened. The primary target every year should be to win the title, but Champions League football, particularly when we have to play the qualifying round, undoubtedly makes it harder to achieve that goal. We will never have a squad as deep as City and Chelsea, who can afford to pay ridiculous salaries to squad players, but it might just have been deep enough to finish the job last season, had we not played an extra ten games in Europe. In previous seasons we have relied on late runs to finish in the top four, but it can’t be a coincidence that getting knocked out of Europe has so often coincided with an improvement in our form.

So there we have it, every year I anxiously fret over qualification for a competition that I know we are unlikely to win, despite the evidence that it actually damages our chances of winning other trophies, including the one which matters most. This isn’t a phenomenon unique to Arsenal. Liverpool got as close to the title last year as they have in decades. It was widely anticipated that their participation in the Champions League would make it harder for them to compete domestically this year, and so it has been (albeit the absence of the Uruguayan nibbler hasn’t helped). Despite this and the fact that they predictably got knocked out at the first hurdle, nobody suggests that they would have been better off not qualifying, once Gerrard’s slip had cost them the title.

Our national obsession with Champions League qualification owes much to the self-interest of the media. In the 13 seasons since 4th place was awarded a Champions League spot, the team finishing there has, on average, finished around 18 points off the title, but only five clear of 5th place. This season there is already little interest left in the title race, but still half dozen or so games left between the direct competitors for Champions League places. Of course the media are going to do all they can to hype the significance of those games, as they still have papers and half-time adverts to sell.

The financial significance of Champions League qualification cannot be entirely dismissed on an objective analysis, but football fans are rarely an objective lot. The financial benefits of qualification don’t really have much to do with the emotional energy I expend every year worrying whether we will make it. In any event, the new Premier League TV deal makes it far less significant. Whilst I do not purport to be fully conversant in the intricacies of football finance, the BBC are reporting that the 32 teams who qualify for the group stage next year will each be guaranteed only £8.7million as an “entry payment”, whatever that means. That is around £1.5million less than the new domestic TV deal is worth per televised game. Obviously there are other factors involved, but Man United’s failure to qualify this season did not stop them from signing by far the biggest kit deal in the history of sport. All this, coupled with the influence of the petro dollar, means that Champions League football no longer automatically gives us such a significant financial advantage.

For me at least, the most tangible benefit of regular Champions League football has been the chance to see the best players and teams at close quarters. I remember, as a kid, asking my Dad whether he had seen this player or that player play in the flesh, but there were very few international superstars who he had the opportunity to watch first hand. A generation on and I am hard pushed to think of many, if any, genuine contenders for an All Star XI of the last couple of decades that have not come up against us at one point or another. I have also had the opportunity to visit some of the greatest cathedrals of football (albeit the sight and smell of the gents in the away end at the San Siro will forever haunt me). If we had a few years out of the competition, then I am sure I would miss this, but I don’t think it’s enough to make qualification every year such a burning priority.

Playing regularly in the Champions League also helps attract players. Would Ozil or Sanchez, for example, have come to us if we were not a regular participant? Maybe not but, again, it doesn’t follow that we have to qualify every single year to attract top players. Just look at Man U. They managed to sign (albeit over priced and over hyped) top players this summer. In addition, for the very top players participation is not enough. They want to win trophies, as so many have proved in leaving us over the last 10 years.

As I said above, even if we do qualify this year, we can by no means assume that our participation is going to continue uninterrupted for too much longer. Chelsea, City, United and Liverpool are not going anywhere and the new TV deal means other teams will become more competitive. We must brace ourselves for seasons when we are not in the Champions League, maybe even next year. Would that be such a disaster?

Well, it depends. I could certainly live with a season here and there when we don’t qualify. It might even help us win a title, which would be well worth the sacrifice. My only caveat and the single most significant reason for why I have become so obsessed with qualification each year can be summed up in one word, and it’s a dirty word at that… Spurs. As the observant reader may have gathered from the above, I have little love for Spurs. I have also been giving decades of grief to my many Spurs supporting friends and I will, deservedly, have to reap what I have sewn if they ever finish above us. They have given us some real scares over the last few years and the whole process of qualification is so much more stressful when it is Spurs chasing us. Had they being flirting with the Championship, rather than the Champions League, I have no doubt that qualification would seem far less important to me.

Looking forward, of course I would rather we qualify every year, because I live in hope. However, come the inevitable year that we fail to make it, then I won’t shed too many tears, just so long as it is not Spurs who qualify instead of us. In fact, if you offered me a trade now between Spurs spending a year out of the Premier League for every year we spent out of the Champions League, I am not sure I’d ever want us to play in it again.


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73
comments

  1. Punxsutawney Phil

    Apr 09, 2015, 7:58 #69737

    Does the CL matter? Sure it does! It puts food on my table - until February.

  2. Ozzie

    Apr 09, 2015, 5:59 #69736

    For me footy is the domestic comps. I've never valued the chumps league and never will even though acknowledging it's existence and the fanaticism it creates. If it means more income for the club then so be it - as long as they spend it wisely by considering the major objectives of the club which ought be winning the domestic comps. Like some, I cant get over excited anymore what with the puffed up egos and ridiculous sums being paid to players and the constant 'musical chairs' of player movement and lack of commitment to a club by egos whose first motivation is to...."win something." Player allegiance to a club seems to come with so many conditions attached. Will today's viewers ever know what a 'settled team' is? Come on Gunners - another good ole FA CUP will do me.

  3. jeff wright

    Apr 08, 2015, 17:45 #69728

    Caesar you are more like a salad with too much oil all wet and soggy. Hey, why not try using Napoleon Bonaparte instead we have a manager who thinks he is him. You picked out a real legend though to base your stupid name on ,come to think though this matches your posts! You couldn't make it up.

  4. AugustusCaesar

    Apr 08, 2015, 16:31 #69723

    Jeff Wright - It's a play on Gus Caesar you pranny. He used to play for us.

  5. maguiresbridge gooner

    Apr 08, 2015, 13:45 #69710

    Ron, is there ever any other kind where OGL is concerned.

  6. maguiresbridge gooner

    Apr 08, 2015, 13:19 #69708

    Jon, fair point, and the fact myself and others have been told often enough to fook off down the lane or to the chavs because we see OGL in a different light as them/others the go back to the site you frequent jibe was stooping as low as them and out of order. I did enjoy the win on Sat (and the others) maybe more that any of the others for a while(the reason for that is well documented on here) and especially as I was in a pub full of pool supporters giving it. I've never heard of the function you mention but I can imagine the crack we'd have with it on here alright.

  7. jjetplane

    Apr 08, 2015, 12:37 #69696

    Pardew is the new GG! Steel & Flight! Probably move on to the England job after Palace go top 4. Arsenal's loss. Still would like Klopp for a laugh and seeing Olly in a Batman mask! It's only a cheap theatre. Lighten up people.

  8. jeff wright

    Apr 08, 2015, 11:21 #69684

    There has been an improvement against City this season Ron! No improvement against Chelsea though or United in the Prem either . I don't take much note of FAC results all sorts of odd results happen in cup comps . We have though taken one point more off Liverpool we got a draw at Anfield instead of a beating and the great thing was that Arsene managed to get on the train at Lime St without any mishaps! Although it felt like a defeat due to the late goal that Liverpool scored in injury time when we led 2-1. The spuds don't count as being a 'top team' of course, which is just as well , because we lost away to them in an embarrassing manner and only managed a draw at home against the scum. So basically it's business as usual with us going out of Europe at the first sniff of gun-smoke . Our fast track-bullies have again been in good form having made an art-form out of hoovering up the Prem dross at the coliseum with a tick-tock monotonous regularity. No title tilt though just a weak surrender early doors to Chelsea .No wonder the chavs love Wenger! Regarding comments made about big Olly it looks to me that there are plenty of other strikers in the Prem who could score the same number of goals (or even more) that he does if they were with us. He's no world beater and we obviously when playing in Europe need better than a mere good Prem class type striker. You couldn't make it up.

  9. Westlower

    Apr 08, 2015, 11:10 #69682

    @Ron, The best odds available will win you £105.70 for a £10 double. Villa are 2/7 to stay up, 3/1 to be relegated & 8/1 to win FA Cup. An Arsenal/Villa Cup Final is 5/2.

  10. Bard

    Apr 08, 2015, 10:55 #69681

    juggernaut; I think we need a bit of perspective. There are those like me that feel the Boss cant take us to the next level but lets not get that confused with thinking that someone like Pardew is capable of that. Wenger is and has been a terrific manager. Im a critic but Pardew isnt remotely in his league.

  11. Juggernaut

    Apr 08, 2015, 10:29 #69680

    Like your last comment about Pardew, Bard. He's done great at Palace but he gets a win against Citeh (their fourth successive away defeat) and all of a sudden his name starts popping up on here, it's ridiculous.

  12. Bard

    Apr 08, 2015, 10:02 #69679

    Some interesting posts. I for one would be content if we gave the PL a proper go never mind winning it. Our lack of activity in the last seasons Christmas transfer window was criminal as was our lack of buying defensive cover this summer. As Jeff says the summer was a shambles in terms of preparation. We were a defensive accident waiting to happen. The result of both those windows was that we struggled for fourth last season having led the PL at Christmas and then effectively put ourselves out of this seasons PL by Christmas through lack of proper defensive cover. We have been excellent since but as I and others have said the pressure is off. Compare and contrast Chelsea who sold Mata, twice Chelsea player of the year and David Luiz, Brazils capt and bought in new players. That signals intent. This recurring excuse that we dont have the money hides a multitude of sins. Over the long run its true but how do explain Athletico and Dortmund's success. It can be done. And dont give me the rubbish about Dortmund this season, its irrelevant. Teams that are well coached and have the right tactical discipline will always thrive. And by the way can we drop this Pardew rubbish.

  13. Ron

    Apr 08, 2015, 9:44 #69678

    Jeff - i think the 'green shoots of recovery' in games v the top clubs are evident this season in fairness but its all been a bit of a fuzzy season in truth really hasn't it. Its 63 pts from 31 games again i read some where in the on line news. Identical to last Season. All in all, whatever happens between now and the season end id say this season has been pretty much on a par with last. PS Ive still this odd feeling that the FAC is going to throw up a surprise in the form of a Villa win in it. They just seem set up for it. New Coach, they will hang on to stay up and the Cup to come. Just a gut feeling. I should put some cash on them? What are the odds on Villa staying up and winning the FAC Westie?

  14. Westlower

    Apr 08, 2015, 9:34 #69677

    Gnabry, Areta, Wilshere & Diaby all played last night at the Emirates v Stoke, with Diaby reported as MOM. The first team will need a longer bench anytime soon. Should we beat Burnley we'll be the first team to win 8 PL games in a row this season.

  15. jjetplane

    Apr 08, 2015, 0:03 #69675

    So Pardew it is. He will even get Walcott running in the right direction. Watch that wide space. Think there has been some improvement to Giroud and as long as he knuckles down he will be fine. Now if Pardew had him he would be upstaging Charlie and Harry. Think Olly is edging it presently but am amazed at how bad Liverpool were. Pretty shocking! Nothing wrong with FJOE JAMERsON - he's a variation on a wobbie theme. Are you an anthropologist on the off chance? You seem overly interested in the behavioral traits of the two-footed Wob. One day they may well rule that little kingdom you so love. I can see Bouldie getting on with AL .....

  16. jeff wright

    Apr 07, 2015, 23:38 #69674

    GR, my points are that the wins against the 'big clubs' this season are too little too late and even should we beat Chelsea that it will not make any difference to the outcome to the league title stroll by Chelsea .I would like to call it a battle but that would be rather factitious . I understand that you want to make more of our current results than what in reality they actually are but it's a case of comparing them with the spuds again and then claiming that they would be over joyed to be in our position .I understand that,but then again they don't have our wage bill and a manager with 19 years experience of the English game at the helm. So I have to look at the bigger picture and reiterate that we should be at least pressing Chelsea for the number one spot instead of scuttling about fighting it out with United ,who are in transition still with the old Gruppenfuhrer now long gone and a ageing City side who are losing to teams like Palace and Burnley . Surely once again Wenger has missed a trick here and trying to dress up being in second place ,we were in first for much of last term , so are we really 'progressing' ? Sorry I can't be more positive regarding Arsene's chances of beating Mourinho but Wenger's record against him does not inspire confidence and Chelsea are unlikely to be as dodgy at the back as Liverpool were . As I said though Wenger is due a result so let's see what happens. I'm not really into reading too much into what happens this season regarding next ones .Liverpool did well last season and all sorts of claims were made for their prospects this time around,but football is always about now and next season is no different in that respect.We hear too much about what we will do next season with ott optimism running riot at times .I stick with my view though that under Wenger it will just be deja vu the last 10 ones .If you want to believe otherwise then that is your prerogative of course.

  17. GoonerRon

    Apr 07, 2015, 23:13 #69673

    @ Jeff - your last post smells very much like you're laying the ground work to negate any positivity in the event we beat Chelsea. And your closing comment about us beating Liverpool also sounds like you're trying negate the notion that our record against the big clubs might have actually improved this season. It's all a bit sad isn't it. I would say you couldn't make it up but sadly it's all a bit predictable coming from you.

  18. Arseneknewbest

    Apr 07, 2015, 23:02 #69672

    Johnny - is that the same Arsene Wenger who signed 7/seven players in the '97 close season (including the legendary Alberto Mendez from a German club apparently called Feucht?) That's another problem when the manager has outstayed his welcome - he starts to sound like a hypocrite. Talk of Pardew earlier on had me heading for the medicine cabinet - nurse!

  19. jeff wright

    Apr 07, 2015, 23:01 #69671

    Ron we had a period of league dominance way back in the Chapman / Alison era but have never built on promising positions such as in 72 and 2004 to try and emulate those far off days. I blame the board's lack of ambition in the past for this . The current major share holder Silent Stan is well known in the states for his various clubs just meandering along making profits for him and he has used AFC for collateral to raise loans for his own nefarious money before trophies policies over there . Articles have appeared in the media in the USA about that . It's true that as GR pointed out that Stan spent more money than usual last summer but it's sadly just a another smoke and mirrors illusion if you look at the overall in and outs last summer with the Tommy 'Verminator' sale money being kept in Stan's deep pockets .Stan did enough to maintain the status quo of a minor top 4 finish and that is all that he requires .Wenger on 8m a year is happy to go along with this knowing that unlike the managers at Chelsea ,United and City that his job is safe .The FAC has suddenly gone now though from not being worth a toss to being a major trophy,just like that ! It's this spin and chicanery that many find depressing . All of these joyous celebs at winning games with just a minor top 4 place at stake is not fooling anyone other than those indulging in it . If we were in with a realistic shout of beating Chelsea the title favs to the title ( they were a London club when last I visited their gaff !) then it would make for some excitement .Wenger still has to face his nemesis Mourinho again of course and is still desperately trying to work out how to beat him . A win for Wenger is long over due ,shame that there is not anything other than London pride at stake though .It's all a bit like the spuds beating us at the lane really if Wenger does beat the mouthy Portugeezer ( tbh I'm not expecting that to happen) then it will be just a lot of much ado about nothing in reality .The spuds will not finish in front of us and deja vu us and Chelsea. I can't see us under Wenger ever reclaiming our top dogs in London historical position And us beating teams like Liverpool ,who have not even won a league title for donkeys years, does not change this .

  20. johnnyhawleyloovinggooner

    Apr 07, 2015, 22:23 #69670

    It is so important everyone wants to be in it.the stadium ment we were lucky to compete.we can now.it appears AW was right when he said 3 players was the most you could intergrate into a team at a time.if we keep everyone and add another 3 top line players there is no reason we can not.the team sems to have realised at last what is required to win matchs.

  21. Ron

    Apr 07, 2015, 22:21 #69669

    GR - Yes of course it differs from fan to fan as you say. I always think the cultural facet of footie and its fans has much to say. Perhaps those of us who left the SE many yrs back have a certain wide eyed view of the differences? Not sure about you mate but while i enjoy going back into London to see my Sisters and a few friends when i do, ive never yet hankered to go back!

  22. GoonerRon

    Apr 07, 2015, 22:11 #69668

    @ Ron - really interesting comment on the north/south divide of opinion and not something I've ever really considered. I guess certain households or supporting families will be more ardent and differing expectations than others but on a broad level you may just have point. I've no issue with accepting that we're not in the absolute top level of clubs historically perhaps this drives what some see as us settling for second best. More recently certainly Man U have bigger pulling power 'footballisticslly' than we do - why I think they can still attract big players when not in the CL and perhaps why we might struggle a bit in this regard if in a prolonged absence from the competition. Maybe we are a bit more tolerant in the south (although I buck the trend having been a tolerant adopted northerner in West Yorkshire for 20 years).

  23. jeff wright

    Apr 07, 2015, 21:52 #69667

    2nd is obviously better mathematically than 3rd GR, but in the greater scheme of things it there is no difference regarding the euro qualification prize,you get a medal and a trophy for finishing first..... Sorry about the name I couldn't remember how to spell properly so did a play on the silly Verminator tag that Tommy was once so proud to try to live up to...... Caesar Augustas when I need advice from someone using such a pompous stupid name I will ask for it.In the mean time I suggest that you stick to making your always wrong loser predictions that provide us with at least a glimmer of amusement.

  24. Ron

    Apr 07, 2015, 21:49 #69666

    GR - i take yr point mate of course. Jeffs demand for 1st is one way of looking at it and he makes some good points. I think for many of us its isnt the not finishing 1st that often that grates, its more the settling for less than first from the outset each season. I think even the daftest critic of AW and of the way we are as a club must accept that we ve never have had and probably never will have a period of absolute dominance as only Utd and Liverpool have ever had in the history of the game. My own persoanl view is that its nigh impossible for a London Club to do that anyway. I dont believe that the demand or appetite is there for it from the fans in such a cosmopolitan City and football isnt as ingrained in the average fan's psyche in London as it is in the NW. Success when it comes is a nice optional, chosen dessert on the menu. In the NW its only ever the main meal. Accordingly i dont think the drive and momentum is ever the same between the two regions. It makes a big difference i feel. Liverpool are perhaps kidding themsleves a bit but in 25 years of their title barren habitat, theyve won Cups such as the UEFA Cup and the CL and been there or therabouts ie 3rd to 7th in the main each season plus FAC s yet their fans see these yrs as 25 yrs of 'failure'. Im not at all sure if AFC and its fans would if we had the same 25 yr record?

  25. GoonerRon

    Apr 07, 2015, 21:35 #69665

    @ Jeff - didn't we have our biggest net spend ever in the summer transfer window? Surely that is an indication of ambition, of wanting to do better, to improve? We undoubtedly should have replaced Vermaelen (why you insist on calling players stupid names is beyond me, by the way) and I'm sure Wenger would agree with that in hindsight. 2nd is better than 3rd - as anyone with a modicum of sense would recognise when in a league system.

  26. Jon

    Apr 07, 2015, 21:31 #69664

    Thanks for the reply MG. Sorry if I touched a nerve. I'm very well aware of the moderator's right to remove posts when they overstep the mark having done some moderating on sites in my time. I'm delighted this one allows such expression of opinion and most people stay within the lines. Am surprised some people get away with calling other posters idiots though or telling them to go and use another site, whatever their view. I can't imagine that would be a good thing for the site or the fanzine which supports it. My point was that I personally find it a little depressing how little joy there is after a 4-1 victory over a supposed big side - one which many on here have been telling us we should be competing with. The functionality I was referring to allows individual users to "obscure" individual posters comments from the view which they see. It means if you get bored of reading the same point of view over and over again from one poster, you can "block" them and continue enjoying the rest of the debate. Was just an idea as there seem to be a lot on here who would benefit from such a scheme and I'm not arrogant enough to think people wouldn't block me either.

  27. AugustusCaesar

    Apr 07, 2015, 21:28 #69663

    I don't know why anyone would want to post on this site with this insufferable bore Jeff Wright dribbling the same $hite day in day out on every single thread. I find it astonishing he never gets tired of his own tedious drivel. What an utterly depressing individual. Up the Gunners!

  28. GoonerRon

    Apr 07, 2015, 21:25 #69662

    @ Ron - fair point you make. Although it's always difficult to compare different eras, comparatively speaking has it been even more difficult for us to finish in Jeff's first or nowhere position given the amount of money spent by Chelsea and Citeh? Conversely, we don't really consider that in the 30's we were breaking transfer records and therefore was it surprising we won as much as we did. I guess the more general point is that it's not realistic to always finish first, but that doesn't always equate to failure or no progress.

  29. maguiresbridge gooner

    Apr 07, 2015, 21:18 #69661

    jon, it's just as well this site doesn't have the same facility as the one you frequent, and/or your fingers not on the trigger, or this site would be turned into what a lot of others have been and are like real wenger love in's among other things, and no one would be able or allowed to say what they think or critise (and that of course is the point of a site like this and what it's all about is it not) i don't know what kind of a facility your referring to maybe it's other posters who can do it, but there is such a facility here also it's called the moderator and if he or she is not happy they can delete, and the fact they don't or rarely do should tell you something, and if your not happy with that i suggest you go back to the site you frequent.

  30. Ron

    Apr 07, 2015, 21:14 #69660

    gr - Its very fair comment that you make on the face of it i.e the 13 from 129 point. The thing to distinguish though is that out of that 129 years there have been 23 that have comprised a league of 5 teams seeking the title and arguably it was a league that for 12 of the 23 comprised just 2 teams one of which was AFC. AFC have and do finish close to bottom of that 'league' consistently. Its always good to conflate history and project it as a mirror of the present, but it cant work that way.

  31. jeff wright

    Apr 07, 2015, 21:10 #69659

    Only first spot would be a significant improvement GR . As I said already there is no difference between finishing 2nd or 3rd . Only having to play a qualifier ( which is usually the case for us) makes 4th spot the lesser in the minor Chumps league places battle. All rather yawn inducing really especially knowing that it's all just about making more money for Stan and there is never any sign of any ambition to do better than this. We were lucky to win the qualifier this season and also fortunate to scrape through the group stage ,albeit we had the easiest group of all the Prem sides .We got an easy ,well according to the club reps at the draw and Wenger ,etc, first KO tie v lowly Monaco and lost it. That's 5 in a row now ! So if you don't mind I will take a pessimistic view on finishing 2nd,3rd or even 4th until such time as I can see some real ambition being shown to turn these Euro league campaigns into something other than them being a money spinner. All the hysterical shouting every season demanding that we get behind Arsene as he attempts yet again mission impossible having blown our chances in the first round of the KO stages is rather tiresome.There is not much fun in watching a film when you have seen it many times before and know how it all ends. Personally my view is that Wenger is happy to chance his arm in the European Cup every season and knows that he only needs a minor top 4 finish to achieve this . His lackadaisical approach to the start of the season was in sharp contrast to Mourinho's he wanted to win the Prem and had his players on parade sharpish to try and do so.Wenger on the other hand was still in Brazil world cup mode granting the German players time off from pre-season training and prevaricating over bringing in a replacement for Tommy Vermin preferring instead to wait for the BFG to consent to return to us. What a disaster he has been! It was obvious at the World Cup that Per was past it and tbh he was never any great shakes anyway. Wenger, along with his other odd peccadilloes, such as his weird obsession with the past it clapped out Spaniard, is it really so surprising that we have failed to get in a blow against Chelsea in the Prem ? They have lost two games we have lost six. As the voice on the PA system at the Bank says ,mind the gap!

  32. GoonerRon

    Apr 07, 2015, 21:01 #69658

    @ MG - slightly tongue in cheek but many on here say Wenger manages inferior players so maybe he does feel the pressure! Joking aside, it's fair to say Wenger (rightly or wrongly) doesn't have a maniac owner hovering over his shoulder every two minutes, and due to his longevity he enjoys a better relationship with our board than any newer manager could ever hope for. That said, he has highlighted recently that when we embarked on the stadium project that we needed to deliver CL football whilst making certain profits each year. That was a huge undertaking for him (albeit very well rewarded) when he probably could have taken a much easier job somewhere. It was more pressurised when considering he is such a 'public' manager who rarely shirks a question thereby taking a lot of the clubs ills on his shoulders (ticket prices, big players leaving for more money etc) and from an on-field point of view it coinciding with other clubs coming into money. A different sort of pressure to keeping a team in the league but it is all relative.

  33. GoonerRon

    Apr 07, 2015, 20:46 #69657

    @ Jeff - in our 129 year history we have finished first 13 times. Does that mean we've had 116 years of failure? Im all for striving to win but sometimes it doesn't happen, but surely that doesn't mean we shouldn't recognise any sort of progress and value it. Progress doesn't always end with a league championship medal due to many other factors. We finished 4th last season, if we finished 2nd this season then it's progress. Not the absolute end game that we all crave (well some of us do anyway) but progress all the same.

  34. maguiresbridge gooner

    Apr 07, 2015, 20:35 #69656

    Gooner Ron, I wouldn't exactly call it a love in and to be honest I wouldn't want a twat like pardew about the place, as Ron says palace is about his level and/but he is doing well there at the moment under pressure, the point I was making is how would OGL do in the same situation with constant pressure and inferior players, but I guess we'll never find out.

  35. Ron

    Apr 07, 2015, 20:24 #69655

    GR - Its expecting Arsenal fans to value 2nd to 4th thats the massive flaw in the Club. Im not to surprised that you partake in its sad objective to be honest. You clearly have never heard of Bill Shankly. " if yr first yr first, when yr second yr nothing". Im well ware that Wengers not to spoken of in the same breath as BS but he knew what winning was about. You enjoy yr also ran jamboree though mate. A good few of us though are tired of being fobbed off with it and told its "success".

  36. GoonerRon

    Apr 07, 2015, 20:13 #69654

    @ Jeff - if we don't win the league would you consider it a generally better performance to be the 2nd best team or the 3rd best team in the league? Would you consider either of those better than being the 4th best team?

  37. jeff wright

    Apr 07, 2015, 19:24 #69653

    MG, no dif really between finishing 2nd or 3rd but avoiding 4th due to the pesky qualifier is an advantage and this will be claimed as being progress! Indeed you could not make it up.

  38. Jon

    Apr 07, 2015, 19:22 #69652

    Well said GoonerRon. I don't always agree with your stance on here, but as I've just posted on the other thread, some people really struggle to enjoy victories and good performances thesedays. On one forum I frequent there is a facility to not display some people's posts and I have to say there are one or two on here who I wouldn't hesitate to block if the same ability existed here. Giroud is as hard a working striker as we've had since Smudger. What he lacks in natural ability, he more than makes up for by having a good attitude. If that makes him a carthouse in some people's eyes then so be it, but he'll do for me. Rather him than that nasty piece of work which Chavski have - karma has worked it's magic on him again I see. Such a shame. Also, the praise for Pardew is astonishing. I have no issue with those who want a change having been in that camp myself for the last few years, but can we at least be sensible with suggestions for a re placement.

  39. GoonerRon

    Apr 07, 2015, 19:09 #69651

    @ MG - I think you're losing it. You said the other day that we were at Newcastle's level. Now this love in for Pardew. Still calling Giroud a carthorse too. Blimey.

  40. maguiresbridge gooner

    Apr 07, 2015, 19:07 #69650

    jw, 73383, good post with a couple of home truths and reminders in there, of course not mentioned and conveniently forgotten about by the wengerites, yes indeed everything's rosy in the garden again with the safety net well in place in case of an emergency/collapse if we're put under a bit of pressure to still make fourth, it makes a change from scraping through on the last day of the season, and in some circles that's actually seen as progress. You really couldn't make it up.

  41. maguiresbridge gooner

    Apr 07, 2015, 17:57 #69648

    The manager of the month award must have went to TOF's head, he's now comparing the cart horse and Sanchez to Bergkamp and Henry I suppose that's what happens when it's so long in coming.

  42. Ron

    Apr 07, 2015, 17:07 #69647

    Good grief, i know Arsene has his drawbacks, but Alan Pardew? This has to be a wind up surely? Pards is doing well because hes at the type and size of Club that hes cut out for. The Toon was too big a job for him really.

  43. WeAreBuildingATeamToDominate

    Apr 07, 2015, 16:11 #69646

    Hmmmmm Alan Pardew........if he can keep his temper in check, he may be one for the future. Don't forget it was only 12 months ago they were after his head up at Newcastle. And he managed to take Charlton down and nearly West Ham in the same seasonn too.

  44. jjetplane

    Apr 07, 2015, 15:56 #69645

    MG he has turned things around at Palace and is even outdoing Wenga on the freedom of expression narrative as he applies it to players on the flanks too. May well end up manager of the year and would be excellent for Arsenal and I am sure he would just slap the old boy out of the way .... Cue stats/odds from Wenger's Only Man .....

  45. maguiresbridge gooner

    Apr 07, 2015, 15:45 #69644

    jj, funny you should mention him according to some BBC sport stat his form this season is better than pellegrini and pushing others and remember he's under and handling pressure, real pressure, (that's the manager of the month award for him next month and deserved) i'd love to see how our so called great manager would fare in a situation like that with players like that.

  46. Smithy

    Apr 07, 2015, 15:36 #69643

    I totally agree with everything jeff wright said. We have massively underachieved but I would say we are in the same boat there as most of the English champions league teams. It is not rocket science in the champions league you have to able to defend well.its something we have got worse at over the years. I'd love to have a chelliene type at our club sorting out the back line with a none shall pass attitude. Yes we have under achieved but we are not completely to blame- the kick and rush premiership handicaps all of our teams when we come up against tatical quality

  47. jeff wright

    Apr 07, 2015, 15:19 #69642

    Smithy, the points you make are obviously true but the question is should we be doing better than just making up the numbers in the Prem and in Europe every season > ? Many of us think that we should be at least putting in a decent effort in the Prem to try and win it and also to be able to beat the likes of Monaco over two legs in the European Cup. It's all good fun beating Liverpool 4-1 at home with old shifty (Kolo) shuffling around in their defence like a blind man on some illegal substance but we were unable to score 3 goals against Monaco away when the pressure was on to do so. This mental fragility stems from Wenger himself ,he is a bag of nerves when it's crunch time in the big games that matter .Everything is rosy now though with a safety net in place for the top 4 trophy and once again the old master of illusion is prattling on about the great speeeerit and self belief that our players have . You couldn't make it up.

  48. maguiresbridge gooner

    Apr 07, 2015, 15:01 #69641

    And after all that time we still don't look capable of winning it and won't and never will under this manager. The only people who care or worry to much are the fat cats and money men and OGL as he wouldn't get his bonus, and of course the arsene fc fans who shed a tear every season as they see it as a record or massive achievement by they're messiah (is there a manager of the month award in the CL? he might have a shoo in for that for another qualification like the PL there shouldn't be to many left for them to give it to) because you win nothing for just qualifying even though some think you do, and your right it's certainly no coincidence that our form improves after getting knocked out, it's a pity it couldn't improve when we still have something to play for, but that's pressure for you and a tactic less manager. Not qualifying now and again would be no disaster at all it's not like we have a chance or are capable of winning it(although if you listened to the spin machine and the wengerites it would be to them, they'd have you believe it would be like the end of the world, Armageddon, Arsenal disappearing overnight and becoming non-existent)it might bring some of our pampered pre Madonna's back down to earth, and show some of them their true level along with an over hyped past it manager with a hugely overinflated ego.

  49. Smithy

    Apr 07, 2015, 14:47 #69640

    The best players want to play in the champions league. Like it or loath it, our only way of attracting top class or world class players is being in that league. You only have to look at the confidence wales have gained from having Ramsey and bale playing top class players and against different systems.just look what a substandard Monaco team did with good tatics against us- very few managers have that tatically ability in the premier. We need to try our best against barcalona and bayern as it is a big step up from the premiership. Yep we've been pretty awful year on year but at least we are there and have the opportunity to improve! Arsenal would be a duller place without the champions league. I'd hate to see the scousers or the spuds there instead of us. Maybe next year with better defenders!

  50. jjetplane

    Apr 07, 2015, 14:42 #69639

    We are the Champions! (cue violins). I like Handel but that was one of his more pissy efforts. Says it all really. Good old Bach ....

  51. clockendjim

    Apr 07, 2015, 14:01 #69638

    A very good and thought provoking article. Non participation in the CL would have many drawbacks 1) The loss of the tremendous income from it 2) The lack of attraction to the club of world class players like Ozil & Alexis 3) The disappointment of the fans 4) If we finished 5th for example then we would be in the Europa League which would still be adding fixtures to a crowded season However there may be some pluses being part of the Europa League 1) UEFA have just announced that it will give extra prize money to EL to bring it nearer to the CL 2) We would have a far more realistic chance of actually winning the trophy. I think this would be great; I don't know why it has become so downgraded, we used to quite highly value the European Cup-Winners Cup & EUFA Cup However this now seems all theoretical as we are almost ensured a top 4 place having killed off Liverpool with Spurs and Southampton fading away. The most important thing now is to finish in the top 3 so we do not have to enter the qualifiers to get into the main draw.

  52. jeff wright

    Apr 07, 2015, 13:59 #69637

    You're right right about the feeling among supporters that the FAC is a given Ron . History though shows that cup finals against anyone can provide upsets.That's the magic of the cup ! Not much magic about losing to lowly about to be relegated Brum in the League Cup final and it was looking a bit dicey at 2-0 down against Hull after we had needed a pen shoot-out to beat Wigan in the Semi last season. As I said though football is at times all about perceptions and the win in the cup at OT has fired up expectations of another cup win at Wembley with a top 4 spot already secured.The likes of Juggernaut are getting their rocks off on winning games in the battle for 2nd ,3rd or 4th place in the Prem . The great thing is we can do it all again next season and for another 20 after (yawn) if Arsene can last that long,he would be 85 by then ,so that thankfully doesn't look likely. But if anyone can do it he can.

  53. Ron

    Apr 07, 2015, 13:56 #69636

    Westie - you feel 'sorry'for these Clubs? Ive heard it all now. Those Clubs cdt care two hoots for their fans or when they play. The EL offers a way into yr beloved CL for the winners now too. The Clubs in Europe rate the EL as they should do. Its only these dozy Clubs and their fans here who don't. AFC are EL material and though the riches are in the CL there, they could do worse than getting some Euro credibility by winning it.

  54. jjetplane

    Apr 07, 2015, 13:46 #69635

    It was Pardew who talked of the top 4 cartel and that is all it is. It also is a drugworld and the drug is TV rights. Pardew seems to be settling down after the Toon experience and he looks like the kind of manager that Arsenal could go for if they really want to win something. Arsene is showing his age on both the touchline and in front of the cameras. He is at his best at this time of the season when the wins keep coming at the money machine keeps spewing. He balances the CL/Pl to a T in that the risks are lower for AFC though the rewards are defaulted on a seasonal basis. As good old JW says - it really is the Perfect YAWN. Nice post there Finsbury Joe and I would rather stand beside you than some of them on here. Enjoying the fixed narrative that the FA Cup appears 'done and dusted' and just a matter of turning up. Better wait and see on that one. Wenger has never been one for defending trophies. Probably has to be reminded by Bouldie that he is still in it. See - he has got a role at the WOK .....

  55. Ron

    Apr 07, 2015, 13:44 #69634

    Ive noticed while on my travels Jeff that there are quite a number of Arse fans who seem to be of a mind that winning the FAC is more or less a given. Talk about arrogance! The in v Pool was a good one and that feeling they have will increase it im guessing. Worrying. Im not sure AFC v a fully fired up Liverpool in a Final or v Villa is anything close to being a dead cert? No disrespect to Reading or B Rovers intended.

  56. jeff wright

    Apr 07, 2015, 13:29 #69632

    Juggernaut,I'm not a vampire Stan is the bloodsucker and he is sucking the blood from mugs like you! Similar result to last season on Saturday against Rodgers flops and the points differentials between us United/City are not that much. The 3 places below FIRST spot are yo-yo and there is still a long way to go before these minor ones are settled .Of course with no pressure now on our players or Wenger to actually win the Prem our boys are once again looking like champs. Deja vu United's ones as well. I have said all season and also during the last one that the FAC is Wenger's only hope of silverware now days , albeit it has taken him 10 years to grudgingly realize or accept this . It was only due to Arteta being injured that Wenger stumbled on Coq when he was forced to bring him back from being out on loan .Accidents happen and this proved to be one in Wenger's favour.He can hardly claim any credit it for it though,in fact it only reveals the weaknesses in his management. I still don't believe that Wenger has the ruthless streak to win at any cost that Mourinho has . As I said before it's just the same old routine ,top 4 finish and a FAC tilt .There has not been a serious title challenge since 2004 and Wenger is still after 19 years a million miles away from winning his European holy grail. If you think other wise than bully for you . You couldn't make it up.

  57. Robert Exley

    Apr 07, 2015, 13:22 #69631

    There's a huge difference between qualifying and not qualify for the CL. The difference in prize money between CL and Europa League is about £25m and there is a huge loss of profile which effects sponsorship money - i.e. Man Utd will take a huge hit on their deals if they fail to qualify this year. Add to the fact that it is harder to attract and keep quality players if you are not in it.

  58. WeAreBuildingATeamToDominate

    Apr 07, 2015, 13:16 #69630

    I think we all know exactly what kind of "lesser funded team" dear old Finsbury Joe has in mind to replace us. His beloved, worshipped Spuds, who really, ahhm, "gave it a go" in the one season they managed it. Remind me what round they went out in again someone?

  59. Juggernaut

    Apr 07, 2015, 13:11 #69629

    73367 - Yes, we're seven points behind Chelsea. And that's closer than anyone else in the premiership is to them. Damn, if only we could win the FA Cup by beating all the good teams (who didn't get to the semis). God, every goal on Saturday must have been like a stake through your heart!

  60. jjetplane

    Apr 07, 2015, 13:10 #69628

    WESTIE why so bothered as you never go to a game anyway and love your 'compassion' for the 5th and 6th so loving your 'I would only except....' What do you think you are - Arsenal Royalty! Lol! ps What do you think of Ozil and Sanchez (headless chicken) playing in the same team now? Great goals with some rare direct football and Giroud kept his head down much to his credit. Kolo is obviously on something and Liverpool were worst than Stoke against Chelsea. That will be a game to watch and I might even do that. Notice Chelski have no more 3pm games for the season. Do look forward to when stadia looks like the Baggies did at the weekend - desolate. And to think WBA are going to be the next Citeh in a Chinese fashion. The circus continues and 'I will only accept it .......'

  61. Finsbury Joe

    Apr 07, 2015, 13:04 #69627

    The Champions league matters only to the moneymen at the club and the sheeple AKBs who bizarrely see qualification as some sort of bragging right. Arsenal under Wenger and Stan will never win this competition, to be honest, their place would be better in the hands of a lesser funded team who would at least give it a go. Could you imagine someone like Southampton, if they were given the opportunity, exiting the competition year after year in such embarassing circumstances? Arsenals record in this competition should lead to at least a 10 year ban on the grounds of being complete non entities using their place only to suck money out of the system, and of course the deluded fans

  62. jeff wright

    Apr 07, 2015, 13:02 #69626

    According to Arsene 4th place in the Prem is the first trophy to be won so it's job done again! This is of course not the same thing as actually winning the European Cup . However as others have pointed out the money to be made for being in the so called Champions League is important and a certain type of status is also gained from it. A false one admittedly, but perceptions and illusions are all a part of the game and none more so than with the old master of illusion himself Arsene Wenger. His infamous comments that he would be happy to finish second in the Prem for the next twenty years summed this up perfectly. Despite our lofty position in the league at present the rwality is that we are still a long way off winning a European Cup or even the Prem .We are just 3 points ahead of a struggling past it City and seven behind the leaders Chelsea,who also have a game in hand .It's been another season of us coming up short in Europe and our level is on a par with United and City.At least we saw off Liverpool in the end but Rodgers side were Ropey Cup failures and did not even manage to get out of the group stages in the Champs League . Even Chelsea failed in Europe despite being better than the rwst of the English sides that were engaged in the mid-week TV fun fest.So it's another season of Arsene's magic roundabout with a top 4 spot secured and only rubbish to play in the semi and FAC final at Wembley again. Cue the sound of the carousel music!

  63. Ron

    Apr 07, 2015, 12:54 #69625

    Mark - yes, the allowing in of the extra teams has negated competition hasn't it. Clubs like Arsenal aren't prepared to invest in the team sufficiently to go from 4th/3rd to 1st as they've no need to. Winning the title only gives a minimal advantage in the CL group draws but if a Club isn't serious about winning it, they're not too concerned about the draw anyway. They can enter the CL and have no concern about needing to genuinely compete in it. Like Bard says, they've never truly been of a mind to want to win it, albeit they did OK in 2006 aided much so by meeting teams who had gone stale or had aged (or both). Its all for the money. Football is the loser in my view.

  64. Westlower

    Apr 07, 2015, 12:04 #69624

    Qualifying for the ECL must be the number 1 priority for all the obvious reasons of status, revenue, attracting top players, etc. The only way I could accept not being in ECL is to finish outside of the PL top 6 & miss the dreaded Thur/Sun fatigue fixture chaos of the Europa League. I actually feel sorry for clubs that finish 5th & 6th in PL. Look how Liverpool benefited last year with a clear fixture list, Man U are this years beneficiaries. Last years winners of the Europa Cup, Seville earned £11.5m in prize money, contrast that to Real Sociedad who were elimated at the group stage of the ECL but earned £13.6m in prize money. 2015/16 prize money for ECL is approx. £8.8m for qualifying. £1.1m for each win, £4m for round of 16, £4.4m for round of 8, £5.1m for reaching the semi's, runner up £7.7m, winner £11m. TV payments are extra. Updated betting: PL Top 2, AFC 5/6, Man City 17/10, Man U 4/1; Top 3, AFC 2/11, Top 4, AFC 1/33. Name the FA Cup finalists: AFC/L'pool 4/5; AFC/Villa 5/2, AFC/Blackburn 12/1.

  65. Bard

    Apr 07, 2015, 11:54 #69623

    Interesting questions raised Gary. I think its harder for the Brit teams to do well for 2 reasons, one is the quality of the prem which goes from mediocre to abysmal, the second is that although the quality is poor the physicality is tough and teams find it hard to adapt in Europe. Having said that I dont think Arsenal have ever put competing in the CL as a major goal. The goal has been to qualify and take the money. So in answer to your question, yes its important for financial rather than football reasons.

  66. mark from aylesbury

    Apr 07, 2015, 11:49 #69622

    I'd guess a straw poll among the fans would showe premiership trophy would be more important to win than the Champions League. I myself would trade off a few years outside it if we had a dynamic new manager post Wenger. Players though rate themselves on peer levels and the Champions League is very important for them in terms of contract negotiation and movement to top clubs. Therefore you can see the sort of money Manure were having to splash when they were outside of the top 4. Also teams like Tottenham were more likely to lose Modric and Bale a season earlier than they may have wished. The boards of the clubs want political power as well so again it is massive for the clubs themselves. On a romantic note I think it was ruined when they allowed none Championship winners to take part but that's progress!

  67. Alsace

    Apr 07, 2015, 10:53 #69620

    Only for the dosh. The dosh pays (in part) for overpaid prima donnas to be....overpaid. Now if the Champions league were for actual champions, then that would be a different matter. Monsieur would have to actually stir himself to win the League, now wouldn't he.

  68. GoonerRon

    Apr 07, 2015, 10:52 #69619

    The £11m figure per televised PL game is what Sky have paid, not what the clubs receive. I think for qualifying through the Group stages the prize money is around £30m plus additional revenues from gate receipts etc, so for fewer games the financial value is comparable to PL riches of £90-100m per season on the new TV deal. Finances aside, I thinks it's vital we continue to compete in the CL, players are inevitably attracted to it and our consistent qualification record could be the difference between signing an Alexis or not. Plus as a football supporter I live in hope that one day we can win it. No team has ever retained the CL which shows how difficult the competition is. Yes, in certain years we could and should have done much better (this year will continue to be a huge regret) but overall I'd say our performances have been about par relative to our standing in European football.

  69. Mike

    Apr 07, 2015, 10:50 #69618

    Most European Clubs make winning the Champions League their primary objective with the league second. Teams like Real, Barca, Bayern and more recently PSG have it as their main ambition/achievement so in short it should matter

  70. Ron

    Apr 07, 2015, 10:26 #69616

    Sadly it matters massively. The 'cred' it gives Clubs, the cash, the need to be in it to attract better players, commercial needs to be enhanced and satisfied etc etc. The trick is to just accept that winning it is unlikely and not to put too much emotional investment into it. Its a bit of a 'closed' shop' tourny to a few Clubs and they all know it really. Its basically vital to Clubs but not so much to fans as i see it.

  71. Kevin

    Apr 07, 2015, 9:53 #69615

    There is an incredible lack of intelligence in this. Why was it posted? Who approved it? Why didn't someone else see the enormous flaws?

  72. WeAreBuildingATeamToDominate

    Apr 07, 2015, 9:46 #69614

    Ask the Spuds and the Bin Dippers if it doesn't matter.

  73. chris dee

    Apr 07, 2015, 8:41 #69611

    'Does the Champions League matter?' Only if you don't qualify for it.