#ThrowbackThursday – Crystal Palace Away

A look back at past visits to this weekend’s opponents



#ThrowbackThursday – Crystal Palace Away

Clive Allen: Played three friendlies for Arsenal


In 1851, at the height of Britain’s industrial power, Prince Albert – the husband of Queen Victoria – had a hand in the creation of what came to be known as ‘The Great Exhibition of the Works of Industry of all Nations’ (or ‘Great Exhibition’ for short), with the purpose of impressing the world with Britain's industrial achievements. It was held in London’s Hyde Park within a huge temporary glass structure (on the committee overseeing its construction had been the famed Isambard Kingdom Brunel) which was constructed within nine months and came to be known as the ‘Crystal Palace’. The exhibition ran for six months and, once it was over, the structure was moved and reconstructed in an area south of the Thames then known as Penge Place Estate near Sydenham Hill, but now referred to as Crystal Palace Park – which was opened to the public by Queen Victoria in 1854.

The reconstructed Crystal Palace became an exhibition centre (in essence, the world's first theme park) providing displays, festivals, music shows, a rollercoaster, dinosaur models and London County Cricket club matches which attracted over two million visitors a year. The groundskeepers of Crystal Palace Park in 1861 formed their own football side – Crystal Palace FC - and became one of twelve founder members of the Football Association two years later, competing in the inaugural FA Cup competition in 1871/72 though eliminated by the Royal Engineers in the Semi-finals. The side competed in a further four FA Cups, however were disbanded in 1876. Two decades on, the grounds of Crystal Palace Park would continue its links with football, becoming the second regular host venue of the FA Cup Final after Kennington Oval in 1895. The most attended final during the Crystal Palace years would be the 1901 final involving that lot from the other end of the Seven Sisters, which brought an attendance of 110,820

One major downfall of Crystal Palace Park however was that its sheer size meant it was impossible to maintain financially and it began to fall into financial ruin. In 1905, one proposed solution to the financial black hole that was emerging was the creation of a football club which would play on the grounds of the park and thus, a reprised Crystal Palace FC was formed. The grounds of the park played host to both Crystal Palace FC and the FA Cup Final until 1914, when the outbreak of the First World War meant that the grounds were commandeered by the Admiralty and both were evicted as a result. After a period of playing their home games at the site of the Herne Hill Velodrome, on the disbanding of former professional side Croydon Common FC, Crystal Palace moved to the Selhurst area of South London in 1918 where they’ve remained ever since.

Palace joined the Football League in 1920, however didn’t reach the top flight until as late as 1969/70, hence why the first ever league fixture between Crystal Palace and Arsenal didn’t take place until November 1969 at Selhurst Park. Both sides were struggling in the League at the time, but it was Arsenal who ran out 5-1 winners. The following season was to be Arsenal’s double year, on their way to glory Arsenal picked up the points in a 2-0 win at Selhurst Park, with goals from George Graham and John Sammels. In 1971/72, Palace picked up their first league point at home to Arsenal in a 2-2 draw and the fixture at Selhurst Park in the final season of Palace’s first spell in the top flight – 1972/73 - ended with a 3-2 win for Arsenal in October 1972.

Toward the end of that season, Malcolm Allison, ousted from the hot seat at Manchester City, took up the vacant managerial post at Selhurst Park. Under ‘Big Malc’ however Palace dropped two divisions to the third tier by 1974. It was under Allison in the old third division however that Palace went all the way to the Semi Finals of the FA Cup in 1976, beating Leeds United and Chelsea along the way before losing to that year’s eventual winners, Southampton. The Cup run wasn’t enough for Allison to keep his job, particularly after being photographed in the team bath with soft porn star Fiona Richmond (the incident highlighted here in an article which I wrote on Malcolm’s passing in 2010) and in the summer of ’76, he was sacked by Palace.

He was replaced by Terry Venables, who got Palace promoted at the first attempt in 1976/77 and again to the top flight in 1978/79, the latter secured with a win in their final match against Burnley. Arsenal fans would also owe Venables a debt of gratitude on two fronts. Firstly, Tel gave his old friend George Graham his first crack at coaching at Palace, after playing out his last years at Selhurst Park (getting sent off here against Stoke City in 1977). Arsenal were of course to reap the full benefit of GG at his managerial peak during the late eighties and early nineties. However the Gunners would reap the more immediate benefit of Palace youth product Kenny Sansom.

Here’s Kenny interviewed on The Big Match on Crystal Palace virtually securing promotion against Orient, his international call-up and having to delay his impending honeymoon to tour with the England side over the summer. Kenny was part of a young side dubbed rather un-Nostra Damus like as the ‘Team of the Eighties’ after winning back to back FA Youth Cups in 1977 and 1978. Palace started their return to the top flight promisingly enough, even topping the table at the end of September. In November 1979 Palace scored their first league victory over Arsenal in a 1-0 win at Selhurst Park, however dropped to thirteenth position, though still their highest ever finish at that point.

Kenny signed for Arsenal in August 1980, with ITN footage of Sansom here entering the Marble Halls at Highbury. The deal which took him to Arsenal however was one of the most bizarre ever and involved nineteen year old recent close-season signing Clive Allen from QPR going in the other direction to Crystal Palace. Contrary to popular belief, Allen did make an appearance for Arsenal - three in fact. One at Rangers as this article states, one at Aberdeen as the picture at the top of this article shows, the third against either Vasco Da Gama or Partizan Belgrade.

What made the deal out of the ordinary was that Arsenal paid £1.25 million, making Allen the first £1 million teenager (only sixteen months after Trevor Francis became Britain’s first seven figure transfer). He’d also scored thirty two goals in forty nine games at Loftus Road, albeit in the second tier. A theory behind the transfer is that Palace wanted Allen but QPR wouldn't sell to Venables. The official explanation however is that Clive Allen failed to impress in his short spell at Arsenal, though after Frank Stapleton left the following year and his replacements Ray Hankin, John Hawley and Lee Chapman were seriously underwhelming, it could be tempting to conclude it was a wrong move for Arsenal.

The signing of Kenny Sansom however was a masterstroke by Terry Neill. Sansom went on to be such an ever present for Arsenal and England that I doubt few actually knew who his understudy left back for either role was until Stuart Pearce and Nigel Winterburn emerged in the late eighties. However, as seen from this interview with Thames News in 1984, clues to his eventual downfall were there early on. As for Allen, he went on to be Palace’s top striker the following season, though famously robbed of a goal here against Coventry City. His time at Palace lasted just one season after the Eagles were relegated (finishing bottom of the old First Division) and ironically returning to QPR with Terry Venables, now installed as boss at Loftus Road. (Clive obviously later became a bigger success at the other end of the Seven Sisters Road, scoring forty nine goals for Tottenham in 1986/87).

Terry Venables had quit Selhurst Park after losing nine of his first ten games. Replacing him in the hot seat was Malcolm Allison for a disastrous two month stint, encapsulated here in the documentary ‘City’ where Palace were thumped 5-0 on his return to Maine Road, ousted by Peter Swales just months prior. The one and only fixture between Palace and Arsenal at Selhurst Park during the 1980s ended in a 2-2 draw on Boxing Day of 1980, with goals from Brian McDermott and Frank Stapleton. As the eighties progressed, both Palace and Malcolm Allison drifted into obscurity, however in the same year as their relegation to the second tier Palace would attain a moment of great cultural significance as a Crystal Palace scarf clearly appears hanging up at the Trotters’ flat throughout the first series of Only Fools and Horses in 1981 – as seen here in the first episode @04.50.

Undoubtedly, in 1981 Arsenal fan and creator of the series - John Sullivan - obviously thought that Delboy would identify with Terry Venables and Malcolm Allison over at Selhurst Park, however as the series progressed Grandad mentions that Delboy’s Dad proclaimed that one day Millwall would win the Cup, on his wedding day it was revealed that the clearly embarrassed Rodney Trotter was named after Charlton Athletic, but in the 1986 Christmas special also was planning to take the Duke of Maylebury’s daughter to watch a game at Stamford Bridge. So quite who the Trotter clan actually supported is anyone’s guess.

One celebrity fan that Crystal Palace did attain however was Radio One DJ and Top of the Pops presenter David ‘Kid’ Jensen , who reveals here that he defected to Crystal Palace some time during the 1980s after being a QPR fan during the 1970s. However, as the 1980s drew to a close – as will be seen tomorrow - there would be a return to the big time again for the Palace, which briefly eclipsed even Venables and Allison’s achievements in the 1970s.

Part two follows tomorrow

*Follow me on Twitter@robert_exley


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61
comments

  1. Seven Kings Gooner

    Aug 14, 2015, 18:00 #74215

    Hi Ron : I agree with your comments about something needing to give to wake up the Arsenal board into some serious action, well West Ham might just be that something. Having been given a new stadium by the kindly tax payer (I bet D. Levy fumed when he lost that battle)they could just be the club in London making a lot of noise in the next 10 years. We already know that the new fan goes to the "places to be seen" and Stratford could start to grab the many floating supporters in London. We seem to accept that we cannot challenge Chelsea and whatever people think of Liverpool or Man U they will keep spending till they get it right. I am just waiting for a hungry George Graham type manager to enter the Arsenal world - I quite like the Swans manager but there are many hard working tactically astute men out there who have the drive that has been missing from us since project youth began in 2007/8.

  2. mbg

    Aug 14, 2015, 14:22 #74198

    jj, and if they can get their hands on that old Throne Ron was referring to (that's if it hasn't already been snapped up)they'll certainly pass something.

  3. Mark from Aylesbury

    Aug 14, 2015, 14:20 #74197

    jjetplane: my entire image of Baddie has now been altered. I can now see him in a garden shed prize marrows growing away. Thump thump thump one fingered on the keyboard , Yorkshire / Queens English language converter via Google deciphering his input. By Heck Thee don't know nowt bout football...... He' s Geofrey Boycott in disguise!

  4. mbg

    Aug 14, 2015, 14:12 #74195

    SKG, 78362, great post, post of the day.

  5. jjetplane

    Aug 14, 2015, 13:30 #74190

    Some of them are downright creepy too RON funny when you think Baddie is from Yorkshire, supports Man Utd, thinks London is really amazing and has not seen Arsenal in a game that has mattered for a decade or so. On the last point he gave up a decade ago becaus ehe too thought they would never compete under the prof when left to him. But because he thinks he is some sort of cross between Krishnamurti and Alf Garnett (the latter more like it) he feels the need for a hill/desert to occupy then throw a few snidey, infantile comments and hope someone gets on his case so he can exercise his pathological persecution complex (PPC). As a form of unintentional comedy it's hard to beat. Still - is a bit weird how he stalks RON on here ..... Perhaps it's just a perverse way to hang onto someone's coat tails. Will be a physical game on Sunday and if Arsenal can pass their way through it they have a chance.

  6. Badarse

    Aug 14, 2015, 13:13 #74187

    Seven Kings Gooner I remember your historical watershed, it must still be painful. I have nothing but sympathy, and a clear sense of empathy too. I was appealing to recognise the lazy repeated diatribes and that they are systematically used as a stick to beat, without realising that what causes them are borne from 'today', and along with them there are advantages. They never necessarily balance each other out. I do not subscribe to superstitious 'karma' pay back phrases or outlooks. Sometimes the good guy doesn't get the girl, now and again the better one loses or misses the advantage and the undeserving win, it is life, and life can be random. What you miss I miss too, in many instances outside football I find myself thinking this, but I make the best of things. Occasionally I close the book but more often just turn a page. You are the only poster I respect enough to respond to. Sorry that the incident has left such an indelible impression; I think you know my style well enough to know that that simple sentence is sincere. We do share memories of all that was the best of the best, hang onto those at all costs Gooner.

  7. Ron

    Aug 14, 2015, 12:16 #74182

    Hi Jeff - yes, but the Gunners are in London and on the throne (according to our resident sage and philosopher - cd be that old throne in the back yard that the builders have just lobbed out as theyve refurbed the bathroom at the Emirates? The mind boggles!) We now all know there's a few bob sloshing about in the old town around Dick Whittingtons pink wellies as well! I think Jordans right but many have said the same before havent they. I do think that eventually City will become the Munich of the PL though. Yes, something seems amiss at Chelsea it seems though the limitations of a Club of their size were perhaps always going to surface. Their money is now going on the stadium though?Its not hard to see the City thing now is it really. Good luck to em. Its a brilliant thing theyve done in East Manch and well worth seeing if you havent. The development is a credit to the arab guys there to transform that area how they have. Utd are breathing through their back sides to try and keep up by the looks of it. Good to see them in a bit of a mess (by their standards anyway). C G - Badarse is just my ong stalker it seems. I get both overt and couched mentions from him even when ive not been on here for a few days. A bit obsessive but It seems to keep him happy and out of mischief though.

  8. Seven Kings Gooner

    Aug 14, 2015, 12:12 #74181

    Badarse: I arrived at my feelings about the current Arsenal set up the day they went to Stoke (2009) and lost 2-1 and played like cowards - I repeat cowards! They avoided tackles and that day England's future goalkeeper (AW words) got out of the way of a 50 - 50 ball twice, to concede both goals. The 8-2 and 6-0 defeats were just bound to happen if a team on the pitch has no leader or no heart. I've seen many bad performances from Arsenal over the years but to see my team physically frightened of the opposition was a game changer for me. The fact that Ron and I and many others, like our teams to have an edge to their play and courage to go with it, does not make us hangs on to any bodies shirt tails for support of our opinions, we just open our eyes. I finish with a quote by Bill Shankley, who I think even you would agree had a grasp on how football should be played. He said " If you don't have courage when you play football stay out of the game because you are a menace" That day at Stoke most of the Arsenal eleven were a menace to the game and I have never got over it.

  9. mbg

    Aug 14, 2015, 12:12 #74180

    Bard, no surprise there, I suppose that's your day ruined.

  10. A Cornish Gooner

    Aug 14, 2015, 11:28 #74176

    Ron. Ignore Badarse's sideswipes, they are repeated ad nauseam and are nothing but padding. Badarse. When is an insult not an insult? When it's your acidic/acerbic wit?

  11. jeff wright

    Aug 14, 2015, 10:49 #74175

    Ron, the ex-Palace owner Simon Jordan ( Badarse must love him he made his millions out of selling mobile phones) said the other day in an article that he thinks that the Prem financial bubble will burst in the near future - there are already- despite all the money floating about at present - signs that problems are mounting. He gave the reasons why he thought as he does and they are difficult to argue against. Apart from the Arabs at Poundlands who playing for real a fantasy football game - others such as Abramovich at Chelsea are already showing signs of distress and are obviously less keen to toss away their own dosh on football. . Of course business plan Stan never does so anyway - but all those empty seats these days at the coliseum are surely the harbinger of doom to come .Someone will have to buy the season tickets in the future when the present incumbents who pay for the empty seats are gone and new customers found to fill them . But the question is if older customers can''t be bothered to turn up at games then why should new ones who have never done so suddenly appear to do so.

  12. Ron

    Aug 14, 2015, 10:36 #74173

    Yes, Badarse nobody doubts our traditions. Your perceptions of London are ridiculously self conscious and at least a decade out of date though perhaps youve never travelled to far. You speak as one whos life has never taken you out of it perhaps. You've fallen into yr own deeply ingrained habits again with that post haven't you. I wont spell them out again as their oft mentioned on here by many others. You cant help yself can you 'chum'. You need to try much harder Badarse. Nobodys buying it anymore.

  13. Exeter Gunner

    Aug 14, 2015, 10:24 #74171

    Good old Badarse, he doesn't change, does he. "He has my point finally absorbed". It is a shame that points made to him regarding this type of comment haven't been absorbed. He thinks they miss - they fly over his head. What Badarse struggles with is others are able to comprehend the world has changed and that AFC operate within that context, and there is nothing they can do about it - but nevertheless, rather than say 'It is what it is' they wish to let off steam about it with other, possibly like-minded, individuals. Thanks to AW for the Emirates? Thanks to AW for its occupants fiddling with their Badarse-disparaged smartphones? No thanks.

  14. Ron

    Aug 14, 2015, 10:20 #74170

    SKG - I suppose we can look back on things with rose timted specs and so on but i should also say that in my view that period we often speak of being roughly between say 1968/9 - 1972 was actually a period where there was a real unity amongst our support and a feel between fans/club that felt tangible. It did for that one time rival the support and momentum that the other big NW clubs take as a given all of the time.Yet, we still petered away didnt we! It makes you wonder doesnt it, when you look at sleeping giant Clubs like Aston Villa who have for yrs had a large support abroad and in Africa etc what would happen to AFC if they, or another like them were ever bought by a wealthy consortium or maybe an Abramovitch type who really went for it? If matters stood still at AFC, its possible that such Clubs, Liverpool too as they develop Anfield that AFC would be pushed further down the pecking order. Maybe AFC would react? Its makes me wonder though whether they would. Under this regime this 'lets just tweak it to keep us hanging in there' mentality might in such circumstances not be enough. What we do know is that some thing will give eventually to prompt a reaction at Arsenal.It badly needs it doesn't it.

  15. jeff wright

    Aug 14, 2015, 10:15 #74169

    Puzzled, stay on topic sunbeam - hey why don't you just write an article yourself instead of asking others to do so >? What's all this nonsense about ' so we can comment on them'anyway,are you Prince Harry in disguise. Or are you Sansom & Delia as well as being Puzzled I can well understand that you have 'Problems' with all of this imagining that you are more than one person . Are all of these rather odd different names that you post under meant to be a statement >? People who think they are two different people are schizophrenic ,medication helps,but in some cases it's too late...

  16. Mark from Aylesbury

    Aug 14, 2015, 9:54 #74168

    Hang about Badarse old chum, calling Ron a dinosaur is a little rude in my book. Why the other day a complete scum bucket on this site said he wouldn't piss on people if they were on fire. Goodness me. I must have a funny idea about rudeness. Tell me more about London Badarsei hear the streets are paved with gold! Is this true? Jameson lives in London and he is worth a hundred billion!!! When you previously admited to not even owning a blinking smart phone nor understanding simple constructs of blogging how the hell can you call people dinosaurs.

  17. Badarse

    Aug 14, 2015, 9:28 #74166

    Sorry Bard am with Sansom and Delilah on this one. As for sensitivity, well you seem to miss an awful lot of impolite exchanges and are in acceptance mode by trying to mollify anyone who points it out as banter(?) Anyway you have slept on it so perhaps are now more rational. Seven Kings Gooner, you conflate issues my friend. Ron's post was well constructed-it always is-but vacuous as it misses and muddles issues. The thrust was, 'the fans are to blame for all ills', and 'it's those other fans not me and my crew'. He recognises-like yourself-that things are different but doesn't grasp why. You neither so you grab at his shirt tails as it gives a simplistic ready made answer. He has my point finally absorbed-I've expressed it continuously so it should have stuck-the rewards for 4th are little different to winning the title, winning it would call for a vast investment so it is financially more sound and conveniently more practicable to spend enough to just qualify, rather than go that extra mile. Simple, I hope now we all understand that simple fact. We are consistently fourth or third, with a possibility of second...first is a long shot. Economics chum. Those economics only come into play because AW makes it happen, think on that. Littering a post with 'Tarquins' is trite and lazy. This is London, the most dazzling of cities in the world, with a club of stature and historical tradition, with worldwide interest. The fans of Newcastle, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Glasgow, Edinburgh, or any other area of the UK are never going to be faced with the same prospect as Arsenal FC. Even the Sours and the Chavs would sell their respective souls to be classified in the same group as AFC-that's something for Bard to reflect on, we are different-but there is only one club, and that's Arsenal who occupy the throne. No two ways about it, that is finite! Therefore any visitors want a visit to AFC, and many new fans attach. London is wealthy-you must understand that Ron, you live outside-and money talks. It buys STs, replica shirts and swanky phones. These people come and sit in, not 'our' seats, but their own. It is how it is-modern life, football club evolution. The part Ron struggles with, because he is a dinosaur, is that every club is being impacted by world issues, financial meltdowns, and 'flavour of the month' mentalities-across the board. Many factors are common, some clubs have unique situations, Arsenal's are amongst the most unique. I know the hospitality world, the celebrity world, it's needs and desires-AFC figures high on the list, and for the foreseeable future always will, thanks to AW. We are what's known in the game as 'prime', thanks to AW; we shall remain in this exalted position for the foreseeable future, so think on. Ignore Ron's sideswipes, 'wok of silence' etc, they are repeated ad nauseam and are nothing but padding. I hope this makes it all a little easier to grasp.

  18. Seven Kings Gooner

    Aug 14, 2015, 8:35 #74165

    Great post Ron ; really do see it your way about the club that is woven deep into me and my family but is dying before my very eyes. I hope one day we return to, only the Champions going into the European Cup and the previous years winners. Love to be in Stan's office the day that bombshell was announced - "arse's gripping seats" would be the best way to describe the aftermath.

  19. Puzzled

    Aug 13, 2015, 23:52 #74163

    If the like of Jjetplane and Jeff Wright don't like the content of an article is there any chance of them writing their own articles for us to comment on?

  20. mbg

    Aug 13, 2015, 23:39 #74162

    jw, yes indeed the AKB's are getting nervous and twitchy, and after just one game, it goes to show what faith they have in their messiah, god knows what will be the call if palace do us, they'll be calling for the Editor not to post a report, and if he does to censor himself and say nothing that will make OGL look bad (because of course it'll not be his fault) and if he doesn't do that they'll be demanding Admin take action because he's gone off topic. You couldn't make it up.

  21. jeff wright

    Aug 13, 2015, 22:58 #74161

    My my my Sansom & Delilah... why why why please tell us before the men in white coats come to break down your door ... it must be a full moon tonight ... Palace ...Palace periphery of Sarf London ... on topic... topic no Arsene not topic ... Sunday Palace then Arsene topic what topic depends on result the sound of drum beats ...the natives are getting restless... Eagles soaring in the grey rainy windy sky ... media Vultures perched on TV gantry waiting in expectation topic topic stay on topic Arsene Sunday will he wear a Puffa jacket or a suit ... who will he start with up front ... he is spoilt for choice between Wally and Olly... questions more questions than answers who knows where is Sanago ... will Alan go for broke and toss caution to the wind ... the tension mounts ... not least among the nervous tetchy AKB's...

  22. sputnik

    Aug 13, 2015, 22:45 #74160

    Nice article Robert. The palace programme for the 1969 match had a headline "punchless Arsenal without a win". 5 gunners goals later we could thank them for the motivation.

  23. Sansom & Delilah

    Aug 13, 2015, 22:17 #74159

    Bard - the article also mentions Sansom too several times. Shall we have a disingenuous hissy fit at that too?

  24. Bard

    Aug 13, 2015, 22:11 #74158

    Sansom et al what I am on is called sensitivity. Its a human emotion. You would have to be a complete half wit to think that using a moniker that involved someone who was chronically ill was ok. i get the pun but its frankly out of order in my book. @closeyboyseyet brilliant posts thumb prints next. I thought we discussed this at my last class. Growling doesnt do it, you have to explain yourself.

  25. mbg

    Aug 13, 2015, 22:09 #74157

    Robert, I think Delboy could identify with the excuse we have for a manager also, or vice versa, their love of a good bargain in the bargain basement, won't pay over the odds, something on the cheap, broke damaged articles , bits falling off things, thinks he's the expert with a side kick/gofor that's not allowed to think for himself and should only speak when spoken to, an old uncle/granddad hanging around in the background, waiting years to be successful only blow it, and of course silly French phrases.

  26. goonercolesyboy

    Aug 13, 2015, 21:33 #74156

    78325 also off topic tosh

  27. Lord Islington

    Aug 13, 2015, 21:28 #74155

    jjetplane - if you don't like the content ask for your money back....what you didn't pay anything to view this piece? Shut up moaning then! This isn't Points of View in the era of three TV channels. If you want an endless source of articles debating Arsene Wenger ad nauseum put Google to use and read something else. Well done to The Gooner for varying the content

  28. Mr A

    Aug 13, 2015, 21:12 #74154

    To Admin : "Because you're the only person who wanted to know" Taken a survey have you? Your logic is non-existent. "Much easier by e-mail" Err, no. Much easier online where all can see how this site is run. Your "truthful" answer shows the clear difficulty you have in recognising blatantly obvious off-topic posts on here

  29. mbg

    Aug 13, 2015, 20:59 #74152

    Hiccup, I agree a well earned point would suffice against this palace side at this stage.

  30. Sansom & Delilah

    Aug 13, 2015, 20:48 #74151

    Bard - what are you on?

  31. goonercolesyboy

    Aug 13, 2015, 20:46 #74150

    78291 and 78321, what a load of off topic rubbish.

  32. Ron

    Aug 13, 2015, 20:39 #74149

    This 'top 4' mullarkey Jeff explains Arsenal and Wenger. Ending up 4th in modern parlance is 'success'. Apart from the glory of being called 'Champions' 4th is as good as 1st. The rewards are the same save for a bit of seeding in the awful CL. Why spend big money to get a proper Coach in and excellent players when you can keep yr money, keep the coach theyve got with 2nd rate players, run the place as a cosy social club type thing with everybody happy clapping when theres no real reward for doing it differently? Its not AFC thats daft, its the fans whove bought into it when first 2, then 3 then 4 cd all be 'champions'. We are all guilty at one time of day thinking entry to the CL was fantastic and its took all these yrs to make those of who question being in it just to make up the numbers who now challenge this torper that the Club calls 'success'. While the tarquins keep turning up, excusing the 8-2s and 6-0s etc etc and handing over the cash AFC wont change a thing. They know theyre going to get 4th and are happy as larry getting the stick they do from such as us. The thing is, there are many thousands of Westies in that crowd on a Sat afternoon there who arent steeped in footie club support as we understand it. they go to be seen to be there. Im sure youve encountered them as have many of us. I honestly dont think whats occuring there could happen at any of the top NW Clubs. its the nature of the southern supporter. Theres never been the desire or drive for the Clubs to succeed. The Clubs have never really been central to a large community to the same degree. Like it or not, Arsenal are capitalizing on their own fans lethargy. Its a hard one to perceive and only those outside of London will empathize. AFC is just a business with football as its product. Its no longer a football Club and is never now likely to be so. Clubs such as Utd are the same but as Manchester is more parochial, they cant let the business model ignore the need to still be a football Club. City are the same and its why with their owners wallet power, eventually the reality is that they will eventually be up there with Real Madrid and Barcelona and not Utd. AFC are 2nd/borederline 3rd tier in a PL that is essentially 5 leagues in one. Catastrophic results is the only varaible that will alter things there. Until it happens the happy clappers remain just that, happy but zombiefied. You may travel about as i do and hear what fans in other regions say about AFC fans after theyve been to the bowl of silence. Its hard to argue with but goes a long way to explaining Arsenal 2015.

  33. mbg

    Aug 13, 2015, 20:37 #74148

    jw, and from some who should have more sense too with a book or two behind him, OGL's biggest fan dear uncle Bob.

  34. Hiccup

    Aug 13, 2015, 20:26 #74147

    Looks like the new weapon that AKB HQ was on about has been unleashed. Squealing about the house rules or something? I'm that intrigued that I looked them up. Comments will be removed if 'considered' off topic. It's all very subjective and open to opinion I guess. He's probably seeking legal advice and going to sue the editor. It does seem to have upset him considerably?

  35. jeff wright

    Aug 13, 2015, 19:55 #74146

    Evening Bard, no doubt in my mind that Wenger is just treading water he doesn't even believe himself that he can win the league ,then again unlike Mourinho and Pelligrini he does not have the pressure on him to do so .This comfort zone of only needing a top 4 finish is also passed on to our over-paid and over-hyped players. whenever the opposition put up a fight, as they did last Sunday, our lot just give in they look confused ,HEY THIS IS NOT SUPPOSE TO HAPPEN DON'T THESE FOOLS KNOW WHO WERE ARE ! bothered ,they become sulky and a bit narked that these lower class players have not rolled over for them as they believe they should do but not angry enough to get too worked up about it. Wenger himself has no idea of how too change things and just sits stressed out in his seat twitching and brooding. .Wenger has taken the FA Cup seriously again because of the Arsenal never win anything jibes after he went 9 years without doing so and it's easier to win the cup with just 5 games to play and moderate non-Prem opponents involved in the later stages than it is to win the league over 38 games. Wenger has in my view been getting away with it in the league for years anyway with his silly tippy- tappy dodgy and GK's ,I'm not convinced that the man in the helmet will provide the big difference that has been claimed after all Wenger is no Mourinho with a defensive mentality and our defenders are not as good as Chelsea's either. Wenger's baffling playing of players out of position doesent help our cause this is down to him not signing the right balance of players for our squad so with so many similar ones he has to do a square pegs into round holes scenario with his team selections. He can't make up his mind whether to play Giroud from the start or Wally,makes little difference really though as we saw on Sunday. Wally has never looked a 90minute player anyway and at his, for a player advancing age, he now never will be.The new contract and his 140k a week wages again illustrates just how deluded and confused Wenger has become. No doubt Wally will pop up now and then with a goal,he might even do so against Palace but we will never win a league title with him - or come to that with Wenger himself.

  36. Badarse

    Aug 13, 2015, 19:39 #74145

    Bard, that moniker could be a tribute-though deceased, we do have Rocky RIP remember?

  37. Bard

    Aug 13, 2015, 19:27 #74144

    Sansom et Deli; poor joke mate as dear old Kenny is very unwell so cant get my head around the your moniker. He was an Arsenal legend. Did you know that 70% of professional sportsmen and women end up alcoholics, bankrupt, commit suicide or have mental health problems. As an aside do you think Arsene is remotely interested in what the online gooner has to say. I havent seen your moniker before, so whoever you are change it straight away and apologise. Poor taste. I for one hopes Kenny gets himself sorted.

  38. Mikeymike

    Aug 13, 2015, 19:17 #74143

    Another excellent article - Hooe you keep it up, Rob.

  39. Hiccup

    Aug 13, 2015, 19:10 #74141

    Be interesting to see how we go about the Palace game. Is it a must win game, or is it a must not lose game? I don't think Wenger needs to look at it as a must win. We're not at that stage yet. But a defeat and 6 points behind Palace and Leicester at this stage won't be ideal. A point won't be the end of the world. We'll be up and running and something to build on. Inwards and outwards.

  40. Sansom & Delilah

    Aug 13, 2015, 18:50 #74138

    jjetplane - yes, I'm sure your Arsenal history books mention the Great Exhibition of 1851, Malcolm Allison, Terry Venables, give you a brief run down of the history of Saturday's opponents and tell you what team Kid Jensen and the Trotter family support. And it's true what they say, who needs motion footage when you've got illustrated pictures (I wish someone would have told the lumiere brothers, it could have saved a lot of time and bother). And yes, the best way to refute that idea that Arsenal's history revolves around Arsene Wenger is to disparage articles about that history which doesn't even mention the bloke. Yes, Arsene will be very pleased!

  41. Bard

    Aug 13, 2015, 18:24 #74135

    Very good post Jeff. It raises the interesting question of his legacy. Unless he wins one of the big ones and lets face it that's unlikely, the second half of his tenure will look threadbare to say the least. My view is that many AKBs recognise this but are giving him the benefit of the doubt in the hope that he can turn water into wine. One magical signing etc. Does anyone really think Benzema will turn us into serial winners ? I think the argument that its only one game and we need to see how it pans out in May is erroneous because we are always capable of a few West Ham moments a season and have been for the last 10 years. He has had enough time to eradicate the problem and he cant. Sunday is a huge game as Palace are no pushovers. 0 points from two games will really ratchet up the pressure.

  42. mbg

    Aug 13, 2015, 17:28 #74133

    I wonder would OGL being photographed in the spa bath in the Emirates changing room with a porn star be enough to get him sacked.

  43. mbg

    Aug 13, 2015, 16:38 #74131

    Bard, if you take Tony's advice tell diaby westie was asking about him.

  44. Ron

    Aug 13, 2015, 16:38 #74130

    Yes Jeff - the media loved the French elan and suave gait of Wenger for quite a while. It was a novelty wasnt it and its lasted to a degree. There are a few myths surrounding him as you rightly say that may have bought into for years and cant/wont shake the faith. PS Allison insisted City on City buying Rodney Marsh in 1972 against Mercers advice. He disrupted the team and cost City the title that year which they had been set fair to win. Derby and Liverpool were the main contenders. I think Liverpool won it in the end. He was larger than life and his training methods were spoken highly of in the game, but he was another newspaper myth really. He spent a packet on duds and nearly broke Man City doing it. Joe Mercer created the Bell Lee Summerbee Doyle Coleman and Young et al team. Not him.

  45. Ron

    Aug 13, 2015, 16:27 #74129

    Absolutely Tony. It was fashionable to knock that team. I always put it down the fact that it was us who had broken the Liverpool/Man U stranglehold on the game that they had had all through the 60s really. The papers didnt like it too much. In fairness we had more stick in those yrs 68 - 70 than we did with the double team didnt we. They just respected and disliked the double team. Before then we werent liked, didnt get much respect and they said we weren't very good! I wdt swap any of todays mob for any of them.

  46. jjetplane

    Aug 13, 2015, 16:20 #74128

    I don't! lol! Indulgence and distraction spring to mind. So sorry for voicing an unpopular opinion although others mentioned similar re last week. I have my Arsenal history books with illustrations so remind of the precise motive of such articles. Bet Wenger loves 'em .... Nice written - I guess.

  47. Peter Wain

    Aug 13, 2015, 16:10 #74127

    Injury list growing Rosicky and Wiltshire

  48. Tony Evans

    Aug 13, 2015, 15:58 #74126

    Bard - assume you will be jetting off (especially after seeing the Chelsea doctor!) to see how dear old Abou is doing in France, and to check out the facilities over there. Do give him our best wishes and ask him who will be Wenger's 'like a new signing' now he has so badly let Le Boss down.

  49. jeff wright

    Aug 13, 2015, 15:54 #74125

    Alison was certainly a bit of a character, an ex-West Ham man he had his most successful time at City when he was Joe Mercer's number 2. Alison always claimed the credit for the success that City had under Mercer but later when given the chance by City to replicate it, with back then a fortune to spend ,Alison failed miserably and was fired. So this would suggest that ex-Arsenal legend Joe had more than a cursory influence on City's success when he was the manager .Alison without Joe's experience and skills flopped when he was in the managerial hot-seat . He talked a good fight though as they say in boxing and Alf Ramsey the England World Cup winner was often a target for big mouth Malcolm's bile. Alison also, as the article states, flopped at Palace by getting them relegated..... So not the big shot really that he thought that he was........... One of the problems I have Ron with the current regime at AFC is the way they try to portray our history beginning with the arrival of Wenger from obscurity in Japan - he was there down to Monaco having fired him - there is very little mention made of pre-Wenger achievements nowdays at AFC everything is Arsene this or that and some alien who had just arrived on Earth from Mars would assume listening to Wenger's andf the AKB's comments on football that he was the fountain of wisdom from which all things football sprang. In reality he is and always has been a copy cat , and although he did bring in some new innovative fitness training and medical ideas to the English game it's also a fact that he himself did not invent them but copied them from others. The problem is he is still using these methods and things have moved on over the past 20 years,as they tend to do. Wenger's most successful period was when he employed 4-4-2 tactics and he certainly did not invent 4-4-2. Nor did he invent tika-taka tactics that he now attempts to employ - albeit he has had to ditch it to win Fa Cups on occasion as in both the last two semi-finals and against Hull in the final. Wenger's tippy-tappy only works anyway against opponents who lack, or don't use physicality, as was the case with Villa last season in the final with the likes of Tom Cleverly poncing about in midfield .Sides that do take us on physically in midfield like West Ham and have skill as well and the other clubs that have stopped us scoring in the last 4 out of 5 games at home in the Prem , just did the same as Monaco in their 3-1 win against us at the coliseum .Wenger obviously has not learnt anything since he was with Monaco regarding his use of tactics and squad building . As they say ,you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

  50. mbg

    Aug 13, 2015, 15:46 #74124

    Robert, remember what happened after your last throwback Thursday column, the AKB's are going to love you.

  51. Bard

    Aug 13, 2015, 15:28 #74123

    I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all the gooners who sent me get well card and to those who told me f*** off and die, please remember Im only on £150000 a week. Im happily ensconced in the Diaby rehab facility which is the size of an aircraft hanger. There's on a few of us here, Danny, Rosicky and dear old Jack. anyway we had a great game of hide and seek last night as well as a sneaky fag after lights out.But I digress I have the inside story on Maureen's little hissy fit with the club doctor. The reason is I invited her over to the unit as my groin was playing up after the accident and needed a 'healing hand' so to speak. Maureen caught wind of it and was steaming. My sources tell me it could go either way. I have sent the boss an sms saying we need to put in a bid for her sharpish. If we do this place will be packed before the end of the month. ps hope you all liked the selfie and no thats not a blunt instrument you can see in the foreground.

  52. Wear Your Colours

    Aug 13, 2015, 15:27 #74122

    Enjoyable read. Would be nice to get a repeat of that scoreline in 1969 on Sunday. COYG!

  53. Tony Evans

    Aug 13, 2015, 15:18 #74120

    Hi Ron - yes the basis of the 70/71 team, with one or two notable exceptions were playing, and I have always thought they were unfairly labelled as a workmanlike, dour team by the press. Yes they could grind out results and stifle teams to death but they could also play a bit too couldn't they. I tell you what, Ron, I wouldn't swap many of them for the current crop!

  54. Ron

    Aug 13, 2015, 14:31 #74118

    Tony yes and the goals showed an interplay of quick incisive passing that Barca would be proud of, never mind Wengers aims and intentions today. Great football certainly wasn't invented in 1992 and honed in 1996 was it, though the so called experts try and have us believe it did. The games games changed in truth. The physicality has and the fitness but the football hasnt to any great degree. How could it. Its a simple game. Even i can understand it!!

  55. Tony Evans

    Aug 13, 2015, 13:39 #74116

    Hi Robert - thanks for another very well researched piece. I loved the clip of the 1969 game: some nice stuff played by Arsenal with Big Raddy in great goal-scoring form.

  56. Captain Frank

    Aug 13, 2015, 13:33 #74115

    Another absorbing article Robert. I'm beginning to look forward to Thursday and Friday lunchtimes when I can indulge in some Arsenal nostalgia courtesy of your work. I hope it's going to become a regular feature. Please ignore the comments of jjetplane who certainly doesn't have to read the articles if he doesn't enjoy them and seemingly doesn't appreciate the effort which goes into them.

  57. jjetplane

    Aug 13, 2015, 13:20 #74113

    Are we to have these articles for every game this season? Think there is a trsin number I must go and spot ..... Begbie ya Bass!

  58. Irritated

    Aug 13, 2015, 13:07 #74111

    Mark - bore off. This article ends in 1981. It has nothing to do with Wenger. Go to the forum if you want to moan

  59. Ron

    Aug 13, 2015, 12:15 #74106

    Good stuff. Even today I always think of Allison, his Fedora hat (didnt he just love himself! - could he have been related to Badarse i wonder? ) and Vince Hilaire. Doing well now though. Theyre one of the more interesting Clubs in the PL now. I reckon AFC will just do enough to nick it at the week end, as indeed we did last yr. In fact we robbed them that day in truth.

  60. Cyril

    Aug 13, 2015, 12:14 #74105

    Robert;very good reading. Mark, being reasonable and rational goes out of the window when you watch football. Anything from hurling your slippers at the tv to screaming the house down in the stadium is the net effect and thank god we still have licence to this. If there was a league table for fan etiquette, we would all get relegated. And yes I know it's not logical. I think I am going to watch some Star Trek...

  61. Badarse

    Aug 13, 2015, 9:30 #74094

    Once more I have to say well done Robert. Quite a bit of research and links there-very interesting read, thanks again. The Trotters' allegiance is mystifying it's true, like a few posters on this site.