#ThrowbackThursday - Arsenal v the Welsh

Part one of a look back at Gunners’ games against teams from Wales



#ThrowbackThursday - Arsenal v the Welsh


Arsenal’s earliest association with the land of Wales came one hundred and twenty years ago, when Arsenal signed Cesar Llewellyn Jenkyns from Small Heath (later renamed Birmingham City) in April 1895. His exit from Small Heath was hastened after he attempted to assault two spectators after being sent off at Derby County. Eleven months on, Jenkyns was selected for Wales for their Home Nations international against Scotland and in the process became Woolwich Arsenal’s first ever international player ten years after their formation. Despite being a star player however, Jenkyns blazed a trail later followed by Frank Stapleton and Robin Van Persie in ditching Arsenal for Man Utd (then named Newton Heath F.C.).

Arsenal’s first fixture against Welsh opposition came in January 1915, after being drawn away to Merthyr Town in the First Round of the FA Cup (the tie switched to Highbury by mutual agreement and became the ground’s first ever Cup tie). The match took place while the First World War proceeded, Arsenal winning 3-0 with a hat-trick from Henry King, who a couple of months earlier scored Highbury’s first ever hat-trick against Grimsby Town and in his only season at Arsenal scored twenty six goals in just thirty seven games. This here is an article on Merthyr’s visit to Highbury for ‘Dial M for Merthyr’ - the fanzine for the successor club Merthyr Tydfil FC.

Merthyr were in the Southern League at the time of their visit to Highbury, but would join the Football League in its Post-WW1 expansion in 1920 however were to last just ten years when they failed re-election in 1930 and were replaced by Thames Association FC – a club who were founded purely to fill the West Ham Speedway Stadium but folded two years later. Merthyr Town were wound up in 1934 due to debts which amounted to £200,000 in today’s money, but would be reformed as Merthyr Tydfil in 1945, who would continue until liquidated in 2010 and reformed again reprising the moniker of Merthyr Town. Arsenal’s next fixture against Welsh opposition would come on Boxing Day of 1921 against Cardiff City at Highbury.

The Bluebirds were also admitted to the Football League in 1920, going straight into Division Two as they were the best team in Wales and were promoted at the first attempt. Their first visit to Highbury ended in a 0-0 draw, twenty four hours later Arsenal visited Ninian Park in Cardiff but were defeated 3-4. Cardiff’s best season in the top flight came in 1923/24, going into the final game of the season one point clear of Herbert Chapman’s Huddersfield Town, however would concede a late penalty meaning that the title went to Huddersfield on goal average. That season Cardiff would defeat Arsenal three weeks in a row - inflicting a 1-2 defeat on the Gunners in the League at Highbury on 19th January, a 0-4 defeat away at Ninian Park on 26th January and eliminating Arsenal from the FA Cup with a 0-1 defeat on 2nd February.

Two seasons later Arsenal would be eliminated from the FA Cup by Welsh opposition, this time by Cardiff’s South Wales neighbours Swansea Town (they were not to be called City until their home town were granted City status in 1969). Despite languishing in the Second tier of English football, Swansea reached the FA Cup Semi Finals in 1925/26 inflicting a 1-2 defeat on Herbert Chapman’s Arsenal at the Vetch Field in the Quarter Final just fourteen years after the Swans were founded. The following year Arsenal would reach the final for the first time, however would be upended by Welsh opposition again, losing 0-1 to Cardiff at Wembley through an infamous error by their Welsh goalkeeper Dan Lewis. It would be the first and only time the FA Cup would be won by a non-English based side, however would be the peak of this Cardiff side’s achievements and the club would go in a drastically different direction to Arsenal.

Regular fixtures against Cardiff would continue in the League until the end of the 1928/29 season, when the Bluebirds would be relegated to the Second tier by finishing rock bottom of the table (although actually conceded the fewest goals in the top flight that season!). By the end of 1930/31 season when Arsenal won their first title Cardiff were relegated to the Third Division South. Arsenal would not face Welsh opposition again until after the Second World War, however Arsenal’s great side of the 1930s would include Welshmen such as left back Bob John, right half Charlie Jones and a British record transfer fee paid out to Wolves for inside forward Bryn Jones in 1938.

The next meeting with Welsh opposition would come in the fourth round of Arsenal’s victorious 1950 FA Cup campaign, in which Arsenal would defeat Swansea 2-1 at Highbury. Among the Arsenal goals that day would be Welshman Walley Barnes. Other Welsh stars for Arsenal in the early post-war period would include Derek Tapscott, Ray Daniel, Jack Kelsey, Dave Bowden and Mel Charles, (the latter being the brother of Leeds Utd. and Juventus star John Charles) whose signing for Arsenal from Swansea in 1959 is covered here in this ITN footage. Cardiff City would return to the top tier in 1952/53 and even inflict a 0-1 defeat on Arsenal at Highbury. In 1954/55 Arsenal would face Cardiff again in the FA Cup for the first time since the 1927 Final. This time Arsenal would triumph with a 1-0 victory with a goal from Tommy Lawton.

In 1956/57 Arsenal would also visit Newport County in the fourth round of the FA Cup away, leaving with a 2-0 victory with goals from David Herd and Derek Tapscott. At the end of that season Cardiff would be relegated to the second tier, but return to the top flight in 1960/61 and do the double over Arsenal, inflicting a 0-1 defeat on Arsenal in late September at Ninian Park, as well as 2-3 defeat at Highbury in February despite two goals from David Herd. The following season Cardiff held Arsenal to a 1-1 draw at Highbury in March 1962, Arsenal’s goal scored by Geoff Strong. Cardiff however would be relegated from the top tier that season meaning that it would be another two decades before Arsenal would play a league fixture against Welsh opposition.

In the meantime Arsenal would meet Swansea at the Vetch Field in February 1968, which drew the Swans record attendance of 32,786. In comparison, a month earlier a mere tenth of that figure saw Swansea play at home against Lincoln City. Arsenal won the game 1-0 with a goal from future Wales manager Bobby Gould. Playing for Swansea that day was Ivor Allchurch, who was the star of Wales’s last qualification for a major tournament – the 1958 World Cup in Sweden – as well as turning out when the sides last played in 1950, with Arsenal manager Tom Whittaker remarking that Allchurch was the ‘player of the century’. A statue of Allchurch stands at Swansea’s new ground, the Liberty Stadium. The Swansea side that played Arsenal included Roy Evans (not to be confused with the former Liverpool manager of the same name) and Brian Purcell, who just eleven months later would both be tragically killed in a road traffic accident while on route to an away fixture.

The following season Arsenal would be drawn away to Welsh opposition in the FA Cup again, this time Cardiff City. Cardiff held Arsenal to a 0-0 draw, before Arsenal triumphed 2-0 back at Highbury with goals from George Armstrong and Bobby Gould. Arsenal would not be drawn away to Welsh opposition again until 1978, when Arsenal faced Wrexham away on route to Wembley in the Quarter Finals. The Welsh side were top of the third tier at the time, which they went on to win that season. Wrexham had previously eliminated top flight Newcastle in the fourth round, holding the Magpies to a 2-2 draw at St. James’s Park and a thumping 4-1 win in the replay at the Racecourse Ground. In the fifth round Wrexham eliminated fellow giant killers Blyth Spartans after a replay.

Lining up against Arsenal that day had been Centre Half John Roberts, who seven years earlier had been a member of Arsenal’s double squad. Wrexham were managed by future Chelsea manager John Neal, their squad that year also included former Everton goalkeeper Dai Davies, winger Mickey Thomas who faced Arsenal in the FA Cup Final fourteen months later for Manchester United, goal scorer Dixie McNeill and future Chelsea goalkeeper and Arsenal reserve coach Eddie Niedzwiecki. Wrexham’s Cup exploits that year led to Wrexham-born guitarist of 70s hit makers The Sweet to wear a Wrexham rosette on Top of the Pops for their performance of their last hit ‘Love is Like Oxygen’. In the event Arsenal left the Racecourse Ground with a 3-2 victory with goals from Malcolm MacDonald, Alan Sunderland and Willie Young.

That same month, while languishing in the fourth division Swansea City had appointed former Liverpool striker John Toshack as manager at the age of just twenty eight and so began the rise of a new powerhouse in Welsh football with the Swans rising up four divisions in just five seasons, no mean feat considering that they were forced to apply for re-election to the Football League at the end of the 1974/75 season. In the meantime, Arsenal would face Cardiff City in the third round of the FA Cup in 1980, the Bluebirds holding Arsenal to a 0-0 draw at Ninian Park while Arsenal triumphed 2-1 in the replay at Highbury three days later with both goals scored by Alan Sunderland. The following season Arsenal would face Swansea City in a two-legged second round of the League Cup, the Swans holding Arsenal to a 1-1 draw at the Vetch Field with a goal for Frank Stapleton. In the second leg at Highbury a week later Arsenal would triumph 3-1 with a penalty from John Hollins, and goals from Alan Sunderland and Steve Walford.

That season however, Swansea City would secure promotion to the top flight for the first time, with performances such as a 3-3 draw with neighbours Cardiff and victories such as a 3-0 win against Chelsea and a victory over Preston North End which secured promotion. As will be seen tomorrow, very briefly South Wales’s new footballing powerhouse would set the old First Division alight, along with some notable early eighties battles with an Arsenal side in an early to mid-1980s malaise.

*Follow me on Twitter@robert_exley


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comments

  1. Westlower

    Oct 30, 2015, 16:24 #78315

    Should there be any older Gooners reading this who watched the Arsenal in the 50's perhaps this team will bring back cherished memories. This team beat Swansea 2-1 in the 4th round of the FA Cup on 28th Jan 1950. They then went on to win the FA Cup beating Chelsea in the semi final & Liverpool in the final 2-0. Team: George Swindin, Laurie Scott, Wally Barnes, Joe Mercer, Les Compton, Alex Forbes, Freddie Cox, Peter Goring, Reg Lewis, Jimmy Logie, Ian McPherson. Goal scorers; Wally Barnes (pen) & Jimmy Logie. Attendance 57,305.

  2. Westlower

    Oct 30, 2015, 15:18 #78302

    Citeh have 4 players out (Aguero, Nasri, Delph, Sterling) with hamstring injuries, compared to Arsenal's 2 (Ramsey & Ox). What are Citeh doing wrong?

  3. supporter

    Oct 30, 2015, 14:43 #78299

    mbg - I forgot to include Gibbs, another perennial crock whose been at Arsene FC from a young age

  4. mbg

    Oct 30, 2015, 13:30 #78290

    supporter, yes she, and another must have been up to early because I clearly read it and understood it as came to Arsenal not started also.

  5. supporter

    Oct 30, 2015, 12:34 #78280

    julesd - i know that but they both joined Arsenal at around 16 years of age when their bodies are still developing and could therefore be more prone to suffering from poor training methods. I think this more likely than it being something to do with them being English

  6. Badarse

    Oct 30, 2015, 11:26 #78274

    Most lucid thought this morning 24601. The sprinting, turning, and almost impossible demands made on these young bodies is awesome. With the work ethic required it takes on a far more sinister aspect-tiredness. A tired set of muscles wrapped up in human form are asked to just go that bit further. Invariably they do but occasionally they don't. In the 'old' days a club had at best two men with sprinting demands placed upon them-the wingers. That was a rarity too. Usually they had to be able to move pretty fast but their game was often based on trickery, the dribble, some were super fast though as mentioned by yourself, the 'Welsh Wizard' Cliff Jones could really shift. None might accuse Sir Stanley Matthews of being a Theo Walcott-of course none would accuse Theo of being a Matthews either. Nowadays the game is essentially based on speed. Moving the ball fast, quick accurate passing, speedy counter attacking football, tracking back, push, push, push. We have Hector, Theo, Ox, Alexis, Kos, Gnabry, Danny, Kieran, even Monreal is no slouch-Jack neither. Slower players are lambasted and much maligned-it's the standard, hairy arsed, pub football mentality that won't be shaken. Ozil has had to add a dimension to his game for the PL, and is doing that, I am pleased to say, but is inherently a gifted class player that ghosts across the pitch with his unique brand of artistry. Giroud, for me the best 'hold up' player in the PL, brings a style unappreciated by many as he too isn't a quicksilver footballer. The level of ignorance in decrying him as a carthorse or worse, is laughable. I would love to see some trying to take a ball on their chests as they were moving down the touchline with an opponent snapping at their heels. It is the old, old story. The world spins, cranks on a notch and those left behind are the dinosaurs.

  7. Westlower

    Oct 30, 2015, 10:33 #78272

    Interesting to read this morning that Liverpool have had 9 players suffer muscular strains since the start of pre-season. Klopp intends to pay more attention to sprinting & recovery work, especially short sharp bursts of speed. Is the game putting too many demands on players asking them to show lightning pace going forward then having to track back to cover the counter attack? Isn't this why Hazard has lost the edge to his game by Maureen turning him into a workhorse. Critics call Ozil lazy but I don't agree. He'll never be a tackler, so let him focus on what he does best, providing chances for others. Given Liverpool's injury problems, Chelsea must be a good bet to beat them tomorrow lunchtime.

  8. Badarse

    Oct 30, 2015, 9:38 #78269

    Jack was a very handsome man. Angular features and a natural smiling countenance. Yes up close and personal, on the edge of 'celebrity' just by going into the shop. He was the manager of the shop and always busy. Ah that damned clock 24601, we need our own event horizon to slow it down and then stop it. Whoops that could rattle jeff's cage, another discussion on spacemen, UFOs, and Doctor Who could follow. To boldly go, and all that.

  9. Westlower

    Oct 30, 2015, 9:27 #78268

    Always got a buzz seeing Jack Kelsey in the shop. Up close & personal with this schoolboys hero. As an 11 year old I could brag about the Arsenal GK playing in the 1958 World Cup, & only a goal from the greatest player ever in Pele (that'll get Ron posting) put Wales out of the competition 1-0. I only ever saw Jack play for Arsenal a few times but he always looked the part.

  10. Badarse

    Oct 30, 2015, 9:07 #78267

    Hope you clean up at Newmarket 24601. Incidentally that is magnificent news to pull Serge Gnabry back from his loan spell. Will he do a 'Le Coq'? I have pinned a lot on this young man so I hope so for selfish reasons to be proven correct, but also for us all, him included. Yes I had naturally thought of the double banked full backs as an emergency plan. Gibbsy often appears in front of Nacho as a late sub, so the other flank is an intriguing prospect. Bellerin is 'our' boy and I love to see him advance in a game, as a man with that specific job it could be a mouth watering prospect.

  11. Badarse

    Oct 30, 2015, 8:57 #78266

    You are right CGO, it was a touch of class. I don't want to drive a stake through Bard's heart but as that class thing has diminished he has wandered into a blind alley of cynicism. We are the people, we set the standards, we crave class and should insist on it and celebrate any small instances. We are awash with the 'me' mentality, from our politics down. AFC are still above the rest in many circumstances, if it is so important perhaps we as fans should strive to keep that class, don't you think? Incidentally your response, in fact both posts does wonders for my bipolar disorder, ha ha. A Younger Gun realising and promoting what I am banging on about, well done fella. Am a humanist so the post script of R.I.P isn't apt for me. He isn't resting or in peace, he is in oblivion. However that same striving is paramount in me for all things, and to me I cherish those warm enveloping feelings that Jack brings to me. How wonderful that people, you and I, who never really met him can discuss in a celebratory fashion his Arsenal life-now that is a legacy. 'Good old Jack, we're proud to say your name!'

  12. Charlie George Orwell

    Oct 30, 2015, 8:40 #78264

    Baddie: Thanks for that. tbh the Jack Kelsey era was a little before I first started to go to Arsenal in the late 60s. But I feel it was a typical piece of Arsenal class - so abundant at the time - where he remained on the staff (albeit in a different capacity) in different and probably difficult times for footballers suddenly reaching the end of their playing days. Just looked on Google - he died only aged 62. RIP.

  13. Badarse

    Oct 30, 2015, 8:22 #78263

    @CGO, Jack Kelsey was the great Welsh Arsenal keeper when I was a lad, and immediately became a hero figure to me-first cut is the deepest may not exactly be true, but he still holds a special place in my heart, perhaps at it's lower point near my diaphragm. On match days I would sometimes buy in that tiny 'shed' shop, or at least look in from the doorway to possibly catch a glimpse. Now see what that shop has evolved into, the Armoury. This is almost certainly dwarfed by Arsenal Internet selling too.

  14. Westlower

    Oct 30, 2015, 8:20 #78262

    Paranoia abounds in the media about our long injury list but with 8 players currently sidelined we are in the same boat as Liverpool, Citeh & Palace. Next come Newcastle with 7 out, Spurs & Stoke with 6, Man U, Bournemouth & Everton with 5. Ospina (shoulder) & Rosicky (knee) got injured on International duty. Wilshere & Arteta got crocked in training, with ankle & bone issues. Welbeck picked up a cartilage injury that required surgery. I was frustrated that Theo & Ox were risked in the COC but their muscles could have gone at Swansea instead. Gnabry is being recalled from WBA. As Campbell doesn't cross a ball with any accuracy how about playing Bellerin on the right wing with Debuchy at FB. Debuchy rightly came in for flack but he'll regain his form with games, he certainly wont by sitting on the bench. @Badarse, I hope Julesd is counting the money in the next 36 hours as it's the last Newmarket meeting of the flat season.

  15. Charlie George Orwell

    Oct 30, 2015, 7:35 #78259

    Great stuff again Robert. I might be way off beam here, but I think that Welsh goalie Jack Kelsey was on Arsenals books for decades as he used to run the Arsenal gift shop after hanging up his gloves? (Ahhh, the Arsenal gift shop beside the Clock End entrance. About the size of an average shed).

  16. Badarse

    Oct 30, 2015, 7:34 #78258

    Good morning julesd, up early to count westlower's winnings again. The ball passeded us, a cleverly disguised lob-but you were there on the baseline returning it with a winning shot down the line, game, set and match! The Bridge of Sighs has more scorn poured upon it as the case for wrongful dismissal and compensation lumbers into view. For feminists everywhere this is a key case, 'Power to the People Who Wear Skirts!' jeff and mbg, that doesn't mean you two-go back to the counter and wait for me there.

  17. julesd

    Oct 30, 2015, 6:20 #78255

    @Supporter, Ox & Theo started their careers at Southampton and Ramsey at Cardiff, not at Arsenal.

  18. mbg

    Oct 29, 2015, 23:32 #78252

    They must run some fantastic courses over at AKB central command, because we now have physiotherapists, veterinarians, bankers, weather forecasters, farmers, it's a pity TOF hadn't as many experts. You couldn't make it up.

  19. mbg

    Oct 29, 2015, 22:37 #78251

    Ron, don't forget that gruelling trip to Yorkshire where they weren't home until all hours, (poor pets) where all it took was for one of our players to just touch the ball to suffer a tweak, even though they had their own chef, masseur, barber, beautician with them.

  20. Badarse

    Oct 29, 2015, 22:07 #78249

    jeff the defeat wasn't put on the kids by Arsene. They were inexperienced and naive as he rightly stated, and having limited back up of experienced men-two being lost in the first fifteen minutes-meant we were reliant on a product they were unable to deliver. Simple. What he said was clear and precise, and accurate. I said it myself, so it must be correct! Your interpretation of him being sad and pathetic due to your skewed analysis of a statement given to the media is sad and pathetic, because your dislike/hatred of him obscures your vision. You make a wild random decision that to you he doesn't look happy, therefore should go to France-well his team lost and that is a pretty bizarre conclusion to arrive at. My team lost and I wasn't happy either, should I pack for France tonight, or will it keep until the morning? He needs to man up? Well that old Boots conditioning counter sounds as though it is calling. The phrase 'man up' can be pretty chauvinistic uttered by some, wouldn't you agree. Then you make another expert diagnosis that he is obsessed with money. How do you support that view, it's utter tosh. He is a multi-millionaire, do you realise what that means. There have been occasions when I have had so much money in my hands, on my person, at my disposal and it ceases to have meaning. The pounds become merely units talked of or seen as larger units, 'long 'uns', 'monkeys', 'grands', just items to achieve an objective. Ask westlower if you doubt what I am saying. His winnings become 'chips', a means to continue the game, raising the endgame's outcome. He doesn't refer to the pounds individually as you might-I say this because you are clearly obsessed with money because it is a constant theme regarding AW. Relax and let the envy float away-and stop making it up!

  21. supporter

    Oct 29, 2015, 19:43 #78247

    The other common denominator that links the English lads is that they all came to Arsenal at a young age and Jack was the youngest of them all. I'm thinking that is where you will find the cause of them suffering lots of injuries and not their nationality. Poor training methods? Over use at a young age?

  22. jeff wright

    Oct 29, 2015, 18:44 #78245

    Badarse, I think that Arsene would be happier back in France at his age having done his pieces so to speak in this land. He doesn't look an happy man these days and the other night his desperate attempts to put the blame for the embarrassing defeat onto the young players involved was rather sad and pathetic on his part. He needs to man up and do the right thing at the end of this season and move on. He has an unhealthy obsession with money and that can often prove disastrous to those who suffer with this problem for themselves and for others. Football at AFC contrary to legend does not start and end with Arsene . Amen.

  23. Westlower

    Oct 29, 2015, 18:19 #78244

    @Ron The one thing I have learned in my long life with horses & greyhounds is they usually get injured when at the peak of their fitness. The good ones try and run at or beyond their limits. Bringing one back from an injury layoff is relatively easy until they're asked to run at maximum speed. It's then the weakness will show itself again. In a footballer, maybe they need to adapt their game if prone to a certain type of injury. There's no easy answer. Of our 8 players currently off injured only 3 have muscle injuries & all are Brits. Why is that? My theory is that English football is still evolving from our pub team mentality & our bodies can't keep up with the pace of the modern game. It's not just an Arsenal phenomenon, look at Rooney, Carrick, Sturridge, Carroll, Bale, etc.

  24. Badarse

    Oct 29, 2015, 18:13 #78243

    Oh jeff, my cattle prod technique isn't working very well today with you. I heard that a chap named Raj Mistry was lined up to take over from Arsene but the board decided at the eleventh hour he should go back to India, as they believed it's where he belongs. Ouch! As the vets might have said with alarm, 'Foot and mouth!' A footballers quads develop more than their hams as I understand it, and the pressure on the hamstring muscle is intense. I have quite well developed hams and it perhaps helped down the years?! Did anyone realise that the Chilcot report will contain two and a half times what Shakespeare wrote in his entire life? I need Chilcot to post on here-that will take the heat off me.

  25. jeff wright

    Oct 29, 2015, 17:35 #78240

    Westie, Wenger has to over use certain players season after season because of the lack of depth in the squads he puts together. He admits to having done so with Jack and also last season with Sanchez. His form dipped for awhile because of that. Wenger still needs him to play in every game this season and that can't help in the long term . It's not just an injury thing there are other factors as well involved , such as fatigue,mental or physical that come into play as well . Sanchez seems to be able to stay fit so it's the other factors that in his case come into the equation with him having to play constantly week after week and with the team relying on his efforts so much. City have a stronger squad in depth and have managed without Aguero and Silva. Wenger will struggle without Sanchez .He does have plenty of options in the play-maker role though,but it's never a good idea to depend too much on one player over the course of a season. A case of tempting fate and relying on some good fortune being involved in that.

  26. Ron

    Oct 29, 2015, 17:29 #78239

    to be fair Westie its not all Arsenes fault. Its party the combo of their bodies being out of balance carrying their beard shavers, phones, head phones and wallets all in one pocket, while theyve only got their comb and condoms in the other. Its bound to affect their centre of gravity. Compound that with the 'gruelling' flights from Europe and natural tiredness and fatigue caused by an hour and half light loosening up every other day and its not surprising we ve got injuries. Im a convert to the case for higher pay for Wally and the others most affected. Its terrible how he and they have to work. Enough to kill horses, it really is.

  27. Westlower

    Oct 29, 2015, 17:15 #78238

    Further to Goonercolseyboy's point about Europeans developing their leg muscles differently may explain why Spaniards Monreal, Bellerin, Cazorla never suffer in the same way as the Brits? Whenever did Henry, Vieira, Petit, Bergkamp, Anelka miss large chunks of games with muscle injuries? Who was the coach then? Bellerin is approaching Olympic standard times when sprinting but would Usain Bolt be able to sprint a total of 8 miles in 90 minutes? It's equivalent to asking him to sprint 100 meters 128 times during a match. Impossible you may say, well make that 50 times with a bit of tippy tappy in between to get his breathe back. Would we expect him to sprint 5000 metres even at half pace? We expect our players to do it 3 times a week. Fatigue, no such thing because it's all Wengers fault?

  28. jeff wright

    Oct 29, 2015, 17:02 #78237

    It is a statistical fact that we suffer more injuries than other clubs do - consistently so. This can't be down to bad luck alone and if is as claimed all the other clubs have the same sort of medical regimes that we do then you would expect that at sometime we would be further down the injuries league than we constantly are. Cause and effects at work seems to me to be a more likely explanation for our worse injury record than other clubs . Some players are more prone to injury than others ,Aguero at City for example it is no surprise when he pulls up with an hammy .So perhaps it's just the sort of players that Wenger signs and the way he sets out his stall for them to play .He himself once admitted that the tippy tappy football he asks his players to play does leave them open to getting knocks in the Prem - wrong tactics in my view for the physical English game and more suited to continental football. The small quick players suffer a lot of muscle related problems with both AOC and Wally going down with them like flies sprayed with DDT. My guess is that when Wenger finally (yawn) departs back to France ,where in my view he belongs anyway, it will be interesting to see along with other things as well if the injury scenario improves over a period of time. My guess is that it will do so and that the current ongoing poor injury situation is related to the current manager's training ,tactics he employs and the type of players that he signs. The new man will have to improve things on that front along with making realistic challenges in the Prem and in Europe,instead of just winning Hollywood style odd glamour games and claiming these are a success .Having a squad of players who suffer less injuries would help in these tasks.

  29. Badarse

    Oct 29, 2015, 17:01 #78236

    mbg you must control yourself regarding the Boots counter obsession. I thought being banned from Accessorize would be a wake up call. Ah those days of Dubbin and hammer in studs. The footwear for modern footballers is another contentious reason for players' foot injuries of course, and now many moulded soles have a ridges or a blade effect. Decidedly dodgy. Special mention to goonercolesyboy, seems like you know your stuff regarding injuries chum.

  30. Jamie

    Oct 29, 2015, 16:55 #78235

    Thanks for the usual informative article, Robert. One of the best ever kits was the one worn in the Wrexham game - an absolute classic. No doubt part two will mention a former Gunner coming back to score against us - it happened quite a lot in the Terry Neill days.

  31. mbg

    Oct 29, 2015, 16:16 #78233

    jw, you've nailed it there, Tuesday night was the kit's fault, i'm surprised we haven't already been told that, maybe it clashed with their hair gel and blusher.

  32. Badarse

    Oct 29, 2015, 16:02 #78230

    Thanks for the response guys-sorry have been busy on the previous article discussing, 'Alice in Wonderland' and spacemen with jeff, ha ha. What you have to say sort of touches on my own views. The game asks for a different shaped athlete, climate in this country, the games' ratio gives little opportunity to recover-that time thing again 24601, media 'instant reporting' gives manna to the doomsayers, and perhaps a medical need to make sure the player has recovered-not patched up and sent into battle again. On the space topic jeff, too long spent outside earth's atmosphere allows bones to weaken and become more susceptible to fractures upon return to earth-but our medical staff would be up to the challenge; a plus is that our little technicians would benefit in another way, as people grow in zero gravity when squashed discs become less traumatised by weight. Seven Kings Gooner I had a cowboy hat I wore to games and it had all those little pinky/red star badges surrounding the rim. In fact I was wearing it when I sat in the East Upper the night we played Staevnet in the ICF Cup 2nd leg, and I wandered into the bar area at half time, catching a glimpse of Joe Baker and George Eastham chatting to someone. I asked for their autographs and both readily agreed, both joking about their photos on the stars on my hat. 'Viva Bobby Gould'-remember it well, ha ha.

  33. Westlower

    Oct 29, 2015, 15:41 #78229

    @Goonercolseyboy, We were posting at the same time on the same subject. I bow to your greater knowledge re training regimes now being tailored to the individuals needs. English fans demand a high tempo game and it's no surprise the injury list mounts once the 3 games a week period starts in earnest. It's the main reason I'm relieved we're out of the COC & I bet CFC & Man U share that sentiment, freeing up their fixture list. Unless clubs are allowed a minimum squad size of 30 & a reserve league is reactivated to accommodate the surplus players, it's impossible to fight on four fronts at the same time. To compound the fixture problem, friendly International games get inserted into the season, sometimes after a week into the new season, defies logic. The whole game needs a shakeup, including a reduced size PL & the abolition of friendly International fixtures. The COC should be confined to clubs not competing in a European competition. It'll give the smaller fish a chance of a prize. At present supporters are being ripped off paying top dollar to watch a patched up side performing poorly.

  34. Westlower

    Oct 29, 2015, 15:05 #78227

    Any reference to Bobby Gould always engenders bad memories of the most embarrassing day of my Arsenal supporting life. I kept my head down for at least a month after that Swindon defeat. All bad loses since are measured against that one, 2-8 at OT doesn't come close. BG might have been a better player if he ran around the walls instead of going through them. @Badarse, If any training regime is a one size fits all than invariably some players are going to suffer because of it. Every physique needs training to the individuals needs. Because of over congested fixtures there is no time to tailor training for the individual. This care only kicks in after the injury has occurred. It's reactive, not proactive as it needs to be. Talking of the Troggs, Richard Hannon Snr. the trainer of Forgive who I had a share in, was the original drummer of the local (Wiltshire) pub band that went on to become the Troggs.

  35. goonercolesyboy

    Oct 29, 2015, 15:04 #78226

    Training methods are so similar nowadays as everyone has access to fitness programs and in most clubs each player has a different program, depending on his strengths or weaknesses and his physical stature. The every day running is what it is the same everywhere. Different speed tests and increasing the flexibility is more prevalent. After exercise stretching is the most important part of any program nowadays and stretching the major usage muscles, groins, hamstrings, calves, quads, hip flexors etc. Massage too is a big part of recovery. As for what the differences are, that's a good question but in truth not much different in this country. Maybe training pitches being too hard or unforgiving to the joints could be an issue, but with technology today that isn't a problem anymore or shouldn't be. As for Europe, the kids are brought up with a ball, short sharp exercises that give them strength in those core muscles so as they get older they don't fatigue them so easily and don't over stress them. Our kids had more of an emphasis on running and power then the ball is used, but that too has now changed as more training methods are made available and not so secret. Ball work is the key to strengthening muscles and aiding endurance. There have always been injuries it's just that in today's media driven world the reports are updated it seems every minute of every day. Our climate is a big factor too, the cold and damp weather against the warm air and sun on the continent definitely helps or hinders muscle recovery and strengthening of the leg muscles playing on the beach or on the sands for long periods of time will help endurance in a different way to what our kids are used to. At the end of the day though, once an injury occurs it doesn't matter where you are from, the muscle is weakened and the fibres aren't able to recover properly as over time they become weaker and weaker and hence susceptible to continuous strains. That's why players have a program tailored to their individual needs.

  36. Ron

    Oct 29, 2015, 14:57 #78225

    Lads - re injuries, i reckon its just the modern training. Theyre trained as and to perform like athletes these days rather than like footie players. The body mass ratios are ail different to yrs back. Players were heavier in the main, carried a nice bit of timber, were more durable and though many were fast they weren't like today's players, but were able to take impact better. Today's athletes are all hamstrings, calf injuries waiting to happen and the lighter frames with no fatty protection are prone to bone injuries and bruised bony injuries. Add to this the science and technology that now detects and names an 'injury' and 'injury' and it means more absences from the team, whereas yrs back said player would just have a steroid jab. Problem with steroids is that its left many from the 70s and 80s with acute arthritis.

  37. Seven Kings Gooner

    Oct 29, 2015, 13:40 #78220

    The song I remember for Bobby Gould was the Equals Viva Bobby Joe - sung to "Bobby Gould viva Bobby Gould" repeat, then "Bobby Gould is a goal machine ..... Which unfortunately he was n't but a very tough uncompromising player. Thought his equalizer at Wembley was going to win us the LC against Swindon!!

  38. Peter Wain

    Oct 29, 2015, 13:10 #78214

    With our injury crisis (who could have foreseen that not) I would take a point on Saturday but I am not hopeful.

  39. Pete Flamingo

    Oct 29, 2015, 13:09 #78212

    'sent off at Derby County' a proper Blues centre half :)

  40. Badarse

    Oct 29, 2015, 12:59 #78209

    Ron was just to the right of the goal, near the barrier to the cinder track, when Bobby scored to equalise against Swindon. The iconic mud spattered picture of him wheeling away after the late equaliser, which was everywhere in those days-mags, annuals, etc-has become fused into my own memory of the actual event. Naturally the Arsenal fans went barmy, he hurtled off the pitch arms raised, and we were all lost in a moment of delirium. His beaming face is a snap that should be sent into space for other worlds to understand 'human happiness'. He was a good player, and I think a very honest pro. He loved the rapport he enjoyed with the fans, and we loved him. School days? Wow! Only memories of songs from school days I have is 'Greensleeves', on our carriage journey to play Real Tennis at Hampton Court, ha ha. Lovely memories fella.

  41. jeff wright

    Oct 29, 2015, 12:50 #78207

    There has rightly been some of criticism of the hideous away strip worn at Sheffield the other night , well it helps to divert attention away from other things I suppose, cheap shot and no harm done and all... another hideous away kit was the one worn in the FA Cup tie at Wrexham a yellow blotchy sort that made our players look like a pack of laughing hyenas . However, The only ones chuckling that day were the locals courtesy of the ref providing one of the worst homer type officiating displays that I have ever seen. Hopefully a more even handed show will be seen by the whistle-blower in our game at the weekend. Monk's side have struggled this season to find any consistency but with Tuesday night's forthcoming drama no doubt being on Wenger's and our players minds they will need to keep their eyes on the ball so speak any complacency or shirking tackles could prove costly.

  42. Ron

    Oct 29, 2015, 12:38 #78206

    Cant recall that re Gouldie Baddie. I liked him though never saw him too much. He was on brink of leaving when i first went to Highbury. The Troggs! Theres a name from my schooldays - 'Wild Things' ha ha. Thats you and me, usually with each other!We used to sing (shout really) that on the coach when we were on school rugby match days. We we re an early Dons crazy gang!! PS Swans 1 Gunners 1.

  43. mbg

    Oct 29, 2015, 12:35 #78204

    I bet the players and managers showed more passion then than this bunch of no hopers and their not fit for purpose manager did on Tuesday night. Lets hope against our next Welsh team our players don't let the managers arrogance rub off on them again and turn up like real men (and not just looking good)and play like real men and do everything that's needed to win like warming up properly and showing heart and desire, and most important of all, balls.

  44. Badarse

    Oct 29, 2015, 12:13 #78201

    Ah Ron, Bobby Gould was an overlooked hero of mine. Do either you or westlower remember his song we'd sing from the North Bank? Sung to The Troggs, 'I Can't Control Myself', (B-B-Bubba-B-B-B-Ber), "B-B-Bubba-B-Bobby Gould!' I was there singing it again-silly old sod! 24601 the injury/coaching question I missed, but have a theory too. I am aware with the ever changing face of PL footie speed is of the essence. We are breeding thoroughbreds and are happy with their speed on the flat, then we expect them to race on, and on, and run through a muddy field-metaphorically speaking. Muscle damage is the single biggest injury in the game-it's asking the muscle to go beyond it's point of safety, followed by tendon trauma, which has similar demands made on them. Certain physiques can absorb, some can't, some players have a weakened area of the body, others do not. The training disciplines are a moot point. I would be interested to know what you know regarding any differences between AFC's, England's and even other PL team's, perhaps even other nations' techniques. Anyone?

  45. Ron

    Oct 29, 2015, 11:22 #78196

    Good stuff Robert. Swansea - good memories. Knew a lovely lass from the Mumbles early 80s. Went to the Vetch a few times. Good side Swans - Alan Curtis was the star man then. Its an excellent venue now at the Liberty. Its one of the best away day trips. Good stadium and atmosphere and very friendly there. Good pubs too! Bobby Gould eh. Hardly gets a mention does he when we talk past players! Would run through a brick wall.

  46. Westlower

    Oct 29, 2015, 11:10 #78194

    Thank Robert for stirring good memories. Part one of your throwbacks gives us old un's the chance to monopolise this site for awhile. Derek Tapscott was the first Arsenal player I ever saw play. He played on the wing for an International X1 at Abbey Road Cambridge, about 1960. My memory reckons it was a testimonial game for Neil Franklin, who played for Stoke & England before moving to Colombia to play for Independiente Santa Fe, whose president Luis Robledo studied in Cambridge. It wasn't long after that I saw the full Arsenal team at the Lane but there was no Welshman in our team that day only 3 English, 3 Scots, 4 from N.Ireland & 1 from Eire. There was one outstanding player on the pitch that day, Cliff Jones, I'd never seen anyone who could run that fast or head a ball that well. It was a real eye-opener. On my first Highbury visit the Arsenal side included Jack Kelsey & Mel Charles.

  47. Seven Kings Gooner

    Oct 29, 2015, 10:12 #78190

    Lovely piece Robert - Mel Charles was the first "Arsenal Star" I bought of the vendors for my red bobble hat. Do you remember the cheap plastic red stars that had a photo of your favourite player in middle of them, had quite a collection until I started going in the North Bank, considered a bit sissy in there! Robert, every clip of ITN film seems to be the George Eastham show, loved that trick he did by passing the ball through an opposition player's legs, we called George a schemer back then not an offensive midfielder as they would do today.

  48. Badarse

    Oct 29, 2015, 9:54 #78188

    Another great wander down memory lane, thanks Robert. Hope you have your tin hat on, as it seems to be open season on article writers.