A Missed Opportunity

Online Ed: Spoils shared in North London Derby



A Missed Opportunity


It was a draw that felt more like a victory, as is the way when a team comes from behind. Nevertheless, whether Arsenal had taken the lead and lost it or the other way round, it was two points at home sacrificed. I recall in winning the title in 2001-02 that the Gunners’ record away from home was better than that at Highbury (where they lost three matches), and perhaps it will have to be that way this season if Arsene Wenger is to defy his critics and win the Premier League for the first time in 12 years. Manchester City’s surprising draw at Villa afforded Arsenal the opportunity to gain two precious points over City and move into top spot. However, it has been a season of twists and turns already, and inevitably, there will be more to come. The question for Arsenal is how they respond to setbacks.

There was a feeling that the team looked tired yesterday. I looked at the Spurs side that faced Anderlecht on Thursday night. Certainly, they were at home, however, they played 24 hours later than Arsenal. Eight of the players that started at the Lane began the game yesterday. So I don’t buy greater fatigue as a reason for the relatively low key display by the home side, unless you believe Pocchetino has rotated more since August, which I am uncertain he has.

Whether Santi Cazorla was carrying an injury or simply removed at the interval because more bite was required in midfield, I do not know. One thing is for sure though. He has looked a little weary of late, leading to loss of possession in his own half a little too often.

Arsenal did actually start the game fairly brightly, but without creating anything much by way of goal threat. Spurs gradually took control by harrying their hosts deep in their own half and not allowing the Gunners to establish much by way of rhythm. They then created their own chances and long before Arsenal finally got into gear deep in the second half, the game could have been out of sight with more clinical finishing. Harry Kane did score from one of his chances, as the Arsenal back line failed to keep a straight line and played him onside. It was intriguing to actually hear arch loyalist Bob Wilson pin the blame on Koscielny for the error during his half time interview, although there was no denying he was the guilty man. Opinions vary wildly as to the abilities of the Frenchman. Some think he is a class defender, others a liability. For what it’s worth, I am uncertain he is strong enough in the air and positionally suspect. A case of could do better, although he has had some great moments.

Over the 90 minutes, I would say Spurs were the better team. Pocchetino set them up with a gameplan and it worked. With a more in-form striker, they would be top of the league, given they have lost a solitary match so far. The Argentinian has got a lot more out of his team than you would think possible. He has taken a year to get to this point, but once he settles on the players he requires to carry out his tactics, his methods seem to work. It isn’t good to watch another side demonstrate cynicism against Arsenal, but at times, it was highly effective. Pocchetino is more worried about winning than the method used, but at times, his sides can play watchable football. Spurs’ biggest worry, if they continue to progress, is losing him to a bigger club in Spain or Italy.

Arsenal, on occasion, have pressed with the same kind of intensity as Tottenham displayed yesterday, but not often enough. Only when the visitors started to tire, and more space developed, did they seriously start to look like they were in the match. The substitution of Gibbs for Campbell proved inspired, not least because the number 3’s fresh legs invigorated the team. Giroud missed a couple of headers one would like to think he could have scored from, but in the end, pressure told with Gibbs finding the net from Ozil’s sublime cross.

Kudos for Petr Cech, who pulled off a couple of fine saves. Ultimately, it was a game that we should be grateful Arsenal took something from, and that it did not mean losing ground in the title race. In a sense, the international break has come at the right time in terms of allowing more players to return from injury, although one always fears for those that have been called up. And critically, it is good not to go into that break on the back of a demoralizing defeat.

Arsenal did not play well, and whether you want to blame fatigue or their tactics, by the end of the match, most of the home crowd were happy enough with the point. The Gunners could have even nicked it at the death, but it was not to be.

As for the fate of the toilets in the away section, this is nothing new, and has been going on since anyone can remember, even at Highbury. There is a simple agreement between the two clubs that any damage is paid for by Tottenham (and vice versa for any incidents at the Lane). I think Arsenal probably aren’t too fussed as it means they will never have to pay themselves to replace any fittings in the loos in that section of the ground through natural wear and tear. I would not be surprised if, weeks ago, contractors were booked to come in today. Like night follows day, some things are just inevitable. Spurs fans smashing up the toilets at Arsenal certainly comes under that category. Let’s hope Arsenal finishing above Tottenham in the league remains another.

Just a quick note to mention that we are recording the November Gooner podcast this evening. Our panelists will be Simon Rose, Layth Yousif and David Oudot. If you have any topics or questions you wish the panel to debate, and get a namecheck in the process, please either…
Email them to [email protected]
Tweet them to @GoonerPodcast
or just leave them in the comments below this article. Thanks.

I am now on Twitter@KevinWhitcher01.

The current issue of The Gooner will be on sale at the forthcoming home matches against Dinamo Zagreb and Sunderland and can be bought online here.

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241
comments

  1. Westlower

    Nov 15, 2015, 20:26 #79195

    @Bard, It's probably no coincidence that CFC were bottom of the injury list for last season with their players only missing a total of 14 months compared to AFC's 49 months. Man U at 45 months weren't much better than us. There are 93 players currently out injured in the PL with Swansea the only club with a 100% squad still available for selection. I heard on the radio that England have 16 out injured at present. It's like an entirely different game now compared to 1970/71 when we managed to get through a tough campaign with only 16 players being used for 64 games. Charlie George was the only serious injury, breaking his ankle in the first game of the season. No wonder Frank McLintock reckons he was too tired to remember much about the Cup Final. Frank recalls that the players were keen to play in every game as their low basic wage, he was on £100 a week, was bolstered by win bonuses & a crowd bonus of something like £1 or £2 for every 1,000 spectators over 26,000. Today's top earners get double in a week what the whole squad of 70/71 earned in a year.

  2. Bard

    Nov 15, 2015, 18:43 #79190

    Cost of injuries estimated at £20m second to Newcastle. Half way to buying a new striker but hey lets not get excited, merely the ebb and flow of muscle pulls.

  3. Westlower

    Nov 15, 2015, 16:13 #79187

    What to make of Flamini owning GF Biochemicals, which is said to be the first compony to mass produce Levulinic acid which is an oil replacement. Market value of GF Biochemicals could be as high as £20billion. Don't call him Mathieu, call him sir? Flamini on the Arsenal board would be interesting?

  4. Westlower

    Nov 15, 2015, 12:57 #79184

    Summary of 'With God on our side' by Bob Dylan: Oh my name it is nothin', my age it means less, the country I come from is called the Midwest. I's taught and brought up there, the laws to abide and the land that I live in has God on its side. Oh the history books tell it, they tell it so well. The cavalries charged, the Indians fell, the cavalries charged, the Indians died. Oh the country was young with God on its side. Oh the first world war, boys it closed out its fate. The reason for fighting I never got straight, but I learned to accept it, accept it with pride, for you don't count the dead when God's on your side. So now I'm leavin' I'm weary as Hell. The confusion I'm feeling ain't no tongue can tell. The words fill my head and fall to the floor. If God's on our side he'll stop the next war.

  5. Westlower

    Nov 15, 2015, 12:30 #79181

    @Cornish, That's what prompted me to post John Lennon's words. The human race knows no bounds in how to respond to adversity. The simplest gestures have the deepest affect.

  6. A Cornish Gooner

    Nov 15, 2015, 11:46 #79179

    Westie. Did you see the clip of the pianist playing Imagine outside the Bataclan theatre yesterday?

  7. Badarse

    Nov 15, 2015, 11:24 #79178

    Perfect tribute to go to bed on, 24601. An unknown soldier, gives way to an unknown enemy, and the unknown westlower gives words of solidarity. 'In the darkness of night, where fears will abound; just a glimmer of light, spreads hope all around. Invisible our foes, stealth aiding their cause, bringing threats-menace grows, at freedom it gnaws. In unity we stand, 'l'esprit de corps' is the way. Offering just a hand, the only card we can lay. Powerlessness numbs the soul, 'ensemble' gives us heart. It's each individual's role, each one plays their part.' 'Red-the blood of angry men! Black-the dark of ages past! Red-a world about to dawn! Black-the night that ends at last!'

  8. Westlower

    Nov 14, 2015, 20:27 #79175

    Imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try, no hell below us, above us only sky. Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do, nothing to kill or die for, and no religion, too. Imagine all the people, living life in peace. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one, I hope someday you'll join us, and the world will be as one. Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can, No need for greed or hunger, a brotherhood of man. Imagine all the people, sharing all the world. You, you may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one, I hope someday you will join us, and the world will live as one.

  9. A Cornish Gooner

    Nov 14, 2015, 17:49 #79174

    I had a look at Diaby's wiki page last night, after he was mentioned here again. Read that he was born in the 10th arrondissement, just as the news started coming through from Paris. Sadly, none of the other information seems important today. Arsenal obviously have a huge, past and present, French connection, so commiserations to them all. Je suis Paris.

  10. Mark from Aylesbury

    Nov 14, 2015, 15:57 #79173

    Badarse- not much one can add apart from agreeing a vile atrocious act.

  11. mbg

    Nov 14, 2015, 14:27 #79171

    ArseneKnewBest, jw, as we all know by now they just go right over his head, even the most simple points, or as I reckon my self straight through it, mind the gap.

  12. mbg

    Nov 14, 2015, 14:00 #79170

    Bard, yes the much Lauded review, it's died a sorry death, just more spin and like all the rest it was lapped up and believed as our problem solver, our problems are over, (they may have actually got worse, who is/was he anyway ?just another yes man do what the dictator says no doubt)when we all knew and know what the real problem is.

  13. John F

    Nov 14, 2015, 9:59 #79168

    Well said Baddie dreadful news.

  14. Badarse

    Nov 14, 2015, 8:15 #79167

    Just wanted to register something after last night's outrage, please allow me Website Admin. Mark, it's why I cannot go along with you that life is better now than way back-it's different, and defies logical comparison; often bleak, with much danger for the young. Football is also different, the arguments are often puzzling because we are comparing chalk with cheese, and just because they both begin with 'CH'. On that 'CH', permit me, we have many friends in France, and a number in Paris-we await contact with some, 'Nous Sommes Tous Charlie'.

  15. Arseneknewbest

    Nov 13, 2015, 21:35 #79164

    coleslaw - as a self-styled football oracle (like your mate BDArse),I'm astonished that you appear incapable of grasping this point. For a club of its size, wealth and claimed ambition, Arsenal's squad has proven time and again that it is wafer thin, made worse by the fact that wengie fosters an environment where injuries are tolerated, and players who are excessively prone to time in the sick bay often have their contracts renewed - you know the players I mean. That you don't see that makes me seriously doubt your sanity. I'd advise you to stop digging comrade, not least because you probably also think the earth is flat. You're p*ss*ng up a rope on this one.

  16. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 13, 2015, 21:04 #79163

    Navas is a wing back, De Bruyne isn't a centre forward, Bony and Aguerro are hamstrung, Dzeko is on loan. Diary was ruined by a tackle in Sunderland, so get off his back. Walcott will be back soon and Welbeck in January. Mark, win the ball and pass it. Leicester without Vardy? S***s without Kane? Keep digging Bard, you will get there in the end, but then again......

  17. Westlower

    Nov 13, 2015, 20:50 #79162

    The game has changed with the passing of the years. AFC had 11 players starting in 30 games or more in 1988/89 with 3 players ever present, Lukic, Rocastle & Winterburn. Again in 90/91 11 players started in 30 games or more with Bould, Dixon, Seaman, Winterburn playing in every game. Merson, Smith & Davis only missed one game. In 70/71 only 16 players were used in a 42 game season. Frank McLintock, George Armstrong & Bob Wilson played in every league game. John Radford, Ray Kennedy & Pat Rice only missed one game. Peter Storey & Bob McNab missed two.

  18. Mark from Aylesbury

    Nov 13, 2015, 20:29 #79161

    Coleslaw - "get in their faces, go in hard ! Play the ball into the Channel, kick it long" "wot yer mean yer bloody hamstrings gone, get up!

  19. Bard

    Nov 13, 2015, 19:39 #79159

    Keep up Colsyboysetc Bony injured bring in de Bruyne or move Sterling up front. Who is our back up ? Did I miss that post ? Keep digging mate.

  20. jeff wright

    Nov 13, 2015, 19:38 #79158

    We get it Colseyboy, Bony pulled a hamstring but City have him covered as well with Nevas and Aquero is due back shortly so when he pulls another hamstring Bony can step in and so on.Wenger has no one if or when Olly gets crocked he gambled on Danny Boy returning according to Wenger last summer he was nearly ready to do that, so no new striker was needed .Shades of when Diaby returns it will be like signing a new player... how is Abu getting on these days ? He spent more time praying at the mosque than he did playing football when with us.A complete joke that fools like yourself put up with and made excuses for. You couldn't make it up.

  21. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 13, 2015, 19:25 #79156

    You just don't get it Bard, nor jeff. Bony has pulled a hamstring too. Wake up and keep up. Muscle injuries occur through over use.

  22. Bard

    Nov 13, 2015, 19:02 #79155

    Colseyboysetc; you are getting your knickers in a twist mate. No one is saying that teams dont get injuries. Im not saying that if they go down twice sell them, a quite ridiculous argument. What I and others are pointing out is that there are several players in the suqad who spent large a parts of every season out injured. That means as Jeff has pointed out, the squad is then stretched. When we get the chance injuries like to Giroud or Ozil we are stuffed. Using City as an argument is stupid because they have terrific back up players. If Aguero is out Bony comes in who is decent. Who comes in if Giroud is knackered no one ! Youre digging yourself into a hole here mate and my advice is stop digging. And as I have posted before yes I would sell Jack, Wally, Gibbs Arteta and Flamini.

  23. Westlower

    Nov 13, 2015, 18:32 #79154

    In the 6 seasons 97/98 to 2002/03 I looked at how many of the squad played (started) 20 or more PL games. 97/98: 10 with Winterburn top on 36, Parlour 34, PV 33, Overmars 32, Petit 32. 98/99: 11 with Overmars 36, Dixon 35, Parlour 34, Anelka 34, Keown 33, Vieira 33, Winterburn 30. 99/00: 17 with Henry 31, Overmars 31, Kanu 31, Silvinho 31, Vieira 31, Parlour 30. 00/01: 14 with Henry 35, Pires 33, Vieira 30, Ljungberg 30. 01/02: 13 with Vieira 36, Henry 33, Bergkamp 33, Campbell 31. 02/03: 14 with Henry 37, Gilberto 35, Wiltord 34, Campbell 33, Cole 31. A strange quirk is that Seaman only played more than half the games twice in six years, maximum 24 (00/01). Henry missed only 16 games in 4 seasons. Last season 8 players played (started) in more than half the PL games. BFG 35, Alexis 34, Cazorla 33.

  24. Badarse

    Nov 13, 2015, 18:21 #79153

    Hi John F, don't dismiss those magical comics-where do you think my humour was born? I remember going into the Trocadero at the Elephant and Castle on a Saturday morning-Sayerday Flicks. I bought a new comic just on sale...'The Beezer' and sat reading it before the organ played and all us kids sang, 'We are the Ovaltineees...'. Wow, The Hillys and the Billys. How much would that first edition be worth now. It was around '55-'58. Dandy, Beano, Topper, Beezer were my favourites, but nothing was as good as Superman to me, ha ha. Funny memories, shall have to explain them to AKBest one day.

  25. jeff wright

    Nov 13, 2015, 18:12 #79152

    Colesyboy,we are still waiting for you to explain why we suffer more injuries every season than other clubs do. We know that every club gets some injuries it's bound to happen .United soon got shut of RVP whereas Wenger kept the injury plagued Dutchman with us for donkey's years .United would never have kept Diaby on their wage bill for 5 years during which time he hardly kicked a ball for us . United sold us Danny Welbeck because he was another player constantly AWOL injured and in any case suffered from that nightmare malaise for strikers 'goal shyness'lots of headless chicken dashing about from Danny Boy but not much to show for it.As Bard pointed out if you have players who are bound to see them them out injured again at some stage. Wally,Ramsey,AOC, Welbeck,Wilshere, Arteta are all regular treatment table patients so if you then get a number of other injuries to other players , as happens to all sides with players who are not normally injured, you are then in trouble if as is the case with our squad that it's lacking strength in depth. City who you keep using to try and prove your case know that Aguero is likely to get injured so they have alternatives to him .Wenger has no one if Giroud is injured .Wally is no centre forward nor is Campbell . Wenger has no cover for Sanchez either if he suffers a dip in form or gets injured it's all on a wing and a pray .Gibbs an unlikely goal scorer prevented us losing at home to the spuds it was all desperation stuff .You don't win titles with squads like our one and the proof is that Wenger's not done so since 2004 ! I can't think of a manager at any top club who went 10 years without winning a title after last doing so. Then again no other club would employ a manager who did that.

  26. John F

    Nov 13, 2015, 17:33 #79151

    Forgot about them DG. Although I have never been I remember the documentary on them "Mad Dog".Blimey lads Chaucerian,Ulysses,Leopold.I can see that I am out of my depth on here.I can quote from the Dandy WHACK,THUMP and where is my cow pie.

  27. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 13, 2015, 17:30 #79150

    There was no slagging off of Merson and Adams, just stating that they benefitted from the training methods and prolonged a career, there isn't a player alive who agrees with everything done in training. Bard, blinded by your anti allegiance, the question was asked about the injuries to our players to Westlower, who gave a web site but it wasn't in service until recently. So every time a player goes down with an injury more than twice, for example, we should sell eh Bard? Aguerro, Silva, Kompany, Carrick, Rooney, Henderson, etc wouldn't be at their clubs any longer according to that point of view. It has nothing to do with defending the manager and saying he is the messiah, so don't disagree with his management style. Managing players is a tough task. Injuries happen. The squad is used.

  28. Ron

    Nov 13, 2015, 17:16 #79149

    Dartford - Good shout mate, Millwall though ive never been there. Coventry was a tough place back in the day, esp during the years that Thatcher ravaged everything there i.e Motor Cars, bike and agriculture tractor industry etc early 80s time. Worst violence i saw at Hammers v Coventry in the 1980 LC Semi Final at the Bolyen. Hammers were a cracking side but still Div 2 and i went with my Sister as shes an Iron. The two 'firms' met. There was a Coventry fan knifed and i think he died as i recall. I last went to their Highfield Road ground about 1999, /2000 and Robbie Keane bagged a brace. It all went off outside!

  29. Arseneknewbest

    Nov 13, 2015, 17:11 #79148

    No badarse - I'm just genuinely concerned about your health - you must be on some strong hallucinogenic medication to come out with some of that (and to imagine that others will want to read it. Maybe some crude reverse psychology, cunningly disguised as old school 19th century irony and Chaucerian pisse-take-ing will help: Oh, Mr Badarse truly thou and thy acolyte Lord Cole of Slaw are veritable heavyweights, both in terms of the power of thy collective intellect and thy footeballe knowledge. Thou remindest me of Sherrif Timme of Sherwoode and Antonio of Poolissio. I'll get me coat if you get yours...

  30. Badarse

    Nov 13, 2015, 16:43 #79147

    It doesn't surprise me that you too couldn't understand the post AKBest, as for Joyce's 'Ulysses' forget it, if the non-punctuation didn't get you in a flat spin then the narrative would-the unspoken thoughts of 'Leopold' going through a day. One of the greatest novels ever written? Possibly, certainly a favourite of mine. His statue in Dublin's O'Connell Street always gets a nod from me-it's never nodded back though, so how rude is that? You misjudge goonercolesyboy my friend, but then you also misjudge me. The idea that you, and your ilk do not read my posts only serves to emphasise my point. Try 'The Dubliners', a collection of superb Joyce short stories, or stick to the label on the sauce bottle, if you prefer. By the way you are constantly 'wishing me away', (akin to f**k off down the Lane, don't you think?) Rest assured it only makes me stay all the more, ha ha. Taking the lads training tonight, I'll give them your best.

  31. Dartford gooner

    Nov 13, 2015, 16:14 #79146

    Boys you missed out one of the worst grounds to visit, the old den. Still got the scars from one visit. Leeds away was always fun, looking back now to the 70s and 80s it was total madness. How more people did not get killed in some of the clashes I don't know.I know there is still trouble now but nothing compared to then and that can only be a good thing.

  32. jeff wright

    Nov 13, 2015, 15:50 #79145

    mbg, slagging off ex-players who actually won league titles while defending the current ones who have won none is par for the course with Colesyboy and other AKB's. Arsene is always right according to Colseyboy and anyone who doesn't agree with this is an idiot according to him .No wonder Stan is laughing all the way to the bank with supporters like this happy to pay to watch mediocrity with the worst results in the history of AFC mounting up season after season under good old Arsene. You couldn't make it up.

  33. Tony Evans

    Nov 13, 2015, 15:07 #79144

    Bard - couldn't agree more re injuries. If we don't win the title this season I fully expect injuries to be one of the main reasons (ok stating the bleeding obvious I know). You simply can not build a title winning team with a squad stuffed full of players that may only feature for, at best, half a season. We know who they are and so does Wenger but his philosophy appears to be stick with them and hope for the best! By the way the other reason (in my view) a title win is unlikely is the criminal lack of cover / competition in defensive midfield.

  34. Westlower

    Nov 13, 2015, 14:56 #79143

    @Goonercolseyboy, There's a website that started up in 2011 called Injury Room which has loads of stats on injuries. Arsenal's injuries have improved greatly since last season. A monthly comparison is when new injuries were picked up; Aug 2014 8, 2015 4 ; Sep 2014 8, 2015 4, Oct 2014 9, 2015 5, Nov 2014 10, 2015 3. At present both Newcastle & Liverpool have most injuries with 10, Everton 8, AFC 7, Man City 6, Bournemouth 6, TH 5, WHam 5. Types of Arsenal injuries in 2014/15: Head 3%, Torso (upper body) 4%, Arms 1%, Midriff 10%, Thighs 30%, Knees 13%, Lower legs 7%, Feet 25%. Most common AFC injuries between 1st Jan 2013 - 13th Nov 2015: 1. Ankle 2. Hamstring 3. Knee injury 4.Thigh strain 5. Calf strain 6. Groin strain 7. Back injury 8. Shoulder injury 9. Lower back strain 10. Foot injury. Most days off with injury 1. Theo 2. Gnabry 3. Ox 4. JW. Another informative site is PhysioRoom, where they predict Bellerin & Ox due back for next game, with Ramsey & Theo a week later. JW 13th Dec, Rosicky 2nd Jan, Welback mid Jan.

  35. Bard

    Nov 13, 2015, 14:46 #79142

    Jeff; you wont get an answer. Sadly Colseyboysetc belongs to the North Korean way of thinking, 'follow and dont ask questions'. You'd have to live on Mars not to know we have had serious injury issues for the last few years. Despite the much lauded review we seem no nearer solving it. My take is that in reality its the same few who are always injured. Gibbs, Wally , Jack, Rambo and now the Ox. Debuchy's was a freak as was Giroud's. Danny had injury issues at Man U so you put him in that category. Whichever way you look at it if 5 or more of your squad are out for months of a season you are effectively shooting yourself in the foot before you have started.

  36. mbg

    Nov 13, 2015, 14:42 #79141

    jw, and even running Arsenal legends down in the process, and in defence of his messiah, and he accuses others of being disrespectful. These AKB wengerites really are jack of all trades, they'll be telling us they used to be an astronaut next or had one in the family.

  37. mbg

    Nov 13, 2015, 14:27 #79140

    jw, but thinks he can, and should, along with a few of his mates.

  38. Arseneknewbest

    Nov 13, 2015, 14:14 #79139

    badarse -I don't understand your post 83756 either and like Jeff, I'm not stupid. Packing your, ahem, material with verbiage, non-sequiturs and cryptic connections might be a contributing factor. That's why people laugh, shrug their shoulders and vow never to read any more of your stuff. I've never embarked on Ulysees, but it might be a breeze after trying to work out 83756. Christ can only imagine what your team-talks were like. Coleslaw on the other hand will be of the "they don't like it up em/keep it tight" school of management, a Harry Bassett wannabee if you will. I think your closest managerial analogue though would be a pseudo-intellectual jackanapes like Sven Goran Ericsson. Take the weekend off Mr Badarse; there's no meaningful football to furrow your brow, and you could evidently do with a rest.

  39. jeff wright

    Nov 13, 2015, 14:08 #79137

    Once again no answer to the question of why we have more injuries every season than other sides from Colesyboy .Just the usual OTT optimistic waffle about future games and prospects. Yawn.

  40. jjetplane

    Nov 13, 2015, 13:10 #79136

    Pure gold dust Bojangles and well played JW as always. Imagine being in a pub with the other two zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ....

  41. Exeter Gunner

    Nov 13, 2015, 12:55 #79135

    If jeff doesn't want the job I'll take over training from AW for the week. I won't actually last half a day but I'll happily take the £20k earned in that time. So unless you can come up with a detailed alternative to current training methods it is invalid to surmise there's an issue at all? Patently absurd line of argument.

  42. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 13, 2015, 11:41 #79133

    Badarse, jeff can't answer his own questions so he relies on ex pros, pundits and the like to try to back up his patch work quilt remarks, the holy grail, the worst defeats in our history, the park the bus tactics, apparently, the gung Ho Keegan style football, apparently, the out of date training that he knows so much about that is the cause of our injuries etc etc. Westlower, not sure if you have time for this, but can you dig up some stats about injuries, not broken bones, of the top clubs in the 20 year period, so we can see the facts once and for all. Meanwhile jeff will be drawing up his training schedule for the week when the players are back from these meaningless friendlies and we can get an insight into the new way of preparing players for the matches ahead. Should be interesting.

  43. Badarse

    Nov 13, 2015, 11:13 #79131

    No surprise you didn't understand my post jeff, it's one of the reasons why you insist on perpetually making the same mistakes. As I intimated this posting isn't a popularity contest, neither is it to redirect those with entrenched views, it is for others to read and perhaps weigh and evaluate. Sometimes an individual may see a glimmer of light in another's perspective, or scrap of information. That is gold dust. Beyond this it is just a custard pie throwing competition, as is all talk radio and any debating arena. On more important matters Pluto has an ice volcano, a case of it's bark being worse than it's bite? A Space Oddity is 46 years old-thank you David Bowie-bet you thought I was referring to you then jeff, didn't you?

  44. jeff wright

    Nov 13, 2015, 10:31 #79130

    Ah! so you are a coach Colseyboy and Badarse is obviously a bus. I used the comments of Merson and Adams to point out that the problems with Wenger's coaching and tactics go back a long way and are not just a result of the circumstances that prevail in the game today. No idea what Badarse is going on about but hey that is not unusual is it. No one is saying that other clubs do not suffer from injury problems but that we always have more of them than anyone else does. This is a fact so just exactly what is your point then,that we are unlucky in this regard>? We might be be unlucky now and then but surely not EVERY SEASON>? So it is reasonable to suggest that causes other than misfortune are involved in our constant injury crisis. Wenger's coaching and tactics have seen us go 20 years in Europe with him now today being no closer to winning his holy grail than when he started his crusade to do so. Wenger has suffered the worst defeats in AFC history since he embarked on his Kevin Keegan style football he has had to ditch it at times to stop the rot against Wigan in the FAC semi and against Hull in the final . He had to resort to parking the bus Mourinho tactics style at City last season and against Chelsea in the Community Shield and used deep defence and long ball Mourinho tactics with Cech Jose's ex-GK orchestrating it all in the fortuitous win over Bayern Munich at home recently. He did say however that it's the players themselves who decided to adopt those tactics and some have confirmed this. Well this hardly suggests that Wenger knows what he is doing does it and the shambles in Munich was an example of this. I have said right from the start of the season that Wenger will struggle and nothing so far that I have seen changes my view on this. No FA Cup win this season will see le emperor yet again without any clothes on exposed for the fraud that he really is. A specialist in failure who gets 8m + a year for being one.

  45. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 13, 2015, 8:30 #79127

    The mists of time were where you were delving jeff with your use of Merson, Adams and Capello as your yard sticks. As it happens I am a coach so do understand the day to day problems of training footballers. Kompany is the latest muscle problem at man city, along with Bony, Aguerro and Silva so why are they having problems? Too many matches in a short period of time possibly. Instead of laughing at muscle fatigue, take it as a given in modern day football and accept it is going to happen to every player at some stage. Take your head out of the mists of time and look at the current situation, take a rest and recuperate properly, jeff.

  46. Badarse

    Nov 13, 2015, 8:02 #79126

    jeff there is nothing wrong with an opinion, providing it doesn't stray into a likely personal feud. We are just opining. The key to all of this communicating is not for the two exchanging really, but for others reading. What is gleaned easily by some is a sensible balance by one, neither, or both. My appreciation is of no account-it matters not whether I am in the majority, or minority, on this site, or in the world. What I get from the exchange between you and goonercolesyboy is subjective, neither correct or incorrect as a standpoint. However goonercolesyboy ticks all the boxes for me. His is a sensible view, your view is full of your vague perceptions and set prejudices. Maintaining a relationship with top athletes is virtually an impossibility nowadays-fail to recognise that and your view is all but nullified immediately. I coached and managed an amateur team-my job on the field was easier as I skippered them, but they were unpaid. I reasoned that were they being paid I could use that leverage. Now these boys are multi millionaires, so the line drawn becomes a circle. Leverage would still be there but in a different and far more subtle guise-humility, and equanimity would be the order of the day, so I think you might struggle on those requirements. If you don't move with the times you become a dinosaur-now where have I heard that before? You have old fashioned ideas jeff, and you are not alone, sadly. It is evident in your attitude to society, politics and an outmoded sense of being. Again you are not alone, on the contrary you are part of a huge majority on those matters, but majority doesn't signify a grasp of reality. All very deep? So is coaching. Manage a group of top class athletes for an international, relatively easy-do it for the entire season and the remit changes. A little like meeting a woman-being suave and becoming,(just taking the hankie off your head isn't enough, but it's a start), and running off to a hotel for the night-or trying to be a husband on a cold and gloomy morning when you have chores to do. Different.

  47. jeff wright

    Nov 12, 2015, 23:08 #79124

    Well I suspect that these folk that I cited know more about football training and coaching than you do Colesy.Anyway the fact that we ALWAYS and have had so for years now,the worst injury record of any club tells me that Wenger's methods are not working .He should come out and tell us who these dope cheats in the game are after his comments about it. Otherwise many will just see these comments as being another attempt to divert attention away from himself and his own problems. Creatine‎ which he used extensively at one time to give players an energy boost although legal is said by some medical experts to produce harmful side effects and is little more than a legal way of artificially enhancing players strength and stamina.The boozing side of the game years back was a part of the culture of the game in this country and not exclusive to Merson and Adams .Some of the foreign players get up to other antics Ozil being one of them that's why Real Madrid got shut of him pronto and why no German club wants him.Instead of looking back into the mists of time you should try opening your eyes to what is going on right now before them. If you are going to get all moralistic that is.

  48. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 12, 2015, 22:32 #79123

    Am I to assume that you have coached football jeff? And have an inside knowledge of training? And take Merson and Tony Adams as your guiding lights? Both of whom were drunks/gamblers by their own admission. Who extended their careers because of what Wenger brought to the table. An ex Welsh trainer questions Ramsey's injury and you hang on to his every word. Because it suits your agenda? Jog on mate, and make sure you do some dynamic stretching before you do though, won't you?

  49. jeff wright

    Nov 12, 2015, 22:19 #79122

    Well now Colsey seeing as you are not slow at coming forward with your own opinions on here it seems rather churlish of you to not want others to give their views on matters on chap. Just saying nothing can be changed and that everything is fine anyway is not really having any opinion at all.The Italian England manager was critical of Wenger overplaying Jack and the medical treatment that he received under Arsene's regime the ex-Welsh fitness coach publicly ridiculed Wenger's outdated fitness training methods recently after the Ramsey spate and some ex-players such as Merson and TA had digs about it and his coaching as well some playing at the time for Wenger such as Bendtner have also commented upon Wenger's medical regime being poor .Many others have said for donkey's years now that Wenger's training /coaching methods are a big part of the constant injury problems that we suffer from every season. If we had the best record for injuries in the game instead of the worst then you would say this was down to Arsene knowing best ,and guess what,you would be right ! You can't have your cake and eat it as well,those who try to do so just end up with a few crumbs. No crumbs of comfort though this term on the injury front or in Europe and of course the League Cup ,just deja vu .

  50. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 12, 2015, 21:45 #79121

    Cardiff was interesting a few years ago in the cup, a constant line of riot police on the way back to the car. Villa park was lively too especially going against the home crowd or being followed back to the car which was looked after by the local kids. Liverpool was fun, got a scouse mate who took us in the supporters club before and when we left ended up in a local working mans club for a beer while the traffic dispersed. But the Lane is still the worst. I remember one year when the police line lasted about 50 yards then you were on your own and the police seemed all to be from up north and didn't give two hoots about the impending dust up. Changed now as they block the high road off and force most Arsenal fans to the left while keeping their lot in the pubs or behind a cordon. Cricket is so civilised by comparison, almost apologetic in its niceness, loads to drink but humour all the way. Missed playing while in America and still play the odd match every summer, just need longer to recover nowadays. The art of coaching top level athletes is such a hard job, personalities, egos and different abilities just to begin with, let alone personal issues and the vast sums of money involved. Easy to criticise and ask why not do this, do that. I suggest you try it first then have an opinion based on your own experience rather than guesswork or lazy punditry and their opinions.

  51. mbg

    Nov 12, 2015, 14:24 #79120

    Bard, I wouldn't mind in the slightest, but it's great to know and see he and others just can't do that, and not only to me, and that tells us all a lot.

  52. A Cornish Gooner

    Nov 12, 2015, 13:29 #79118

    Ron. Alan Ball was resented by some Arsenal players because of his wages. £250 per week.

  53. Ron

    Nov 12, 2015, 13:08 #79117

    Youre so right Baddie. More so than ever today the Coaches need to be cerebrally attuned to their players and surrounds and of a higher intelligence than they ever did yesteryear. A need to be quite finely tuned psychologists really so to maintain their tenuous authority and respect. Its easily lost and the money has caused that to a large degree as you say. The media too, making the players seem like higher beings than their Coach. The media seem to love that and then when the Coach bites the dust via players turning against him, they love it even more. Its like they've won a victory! All a bit sick isnt it. Tony - yes, you dont see many away colours at the Spuds do you. Its very telling isnt it.

  54. Tony Evans

    Nov 12, 2015, 12:54 #79116

    Yep Spuds, Westham and Chelsea away games were the ones that made me very wary, and my Arsenal scarf never came with me! Remember at Stamford Bridge they used to keep you herded in for ages after the match had finished. Highbury could be dodgy too back in the day - usually Westham again in my experience.

  55. Badarse

    Nov 12, 2015, 12:51 #79115

    Hi Ron, I think it's the 'one size fits all', which is the problem. People who are limited in experience-I have a put down for myself on this score-think you fire people up and you get an enhanced performance from them. Well you might but it's like a shot from a drug, it only works in it's initial stage. It's why I am very defensive regarding all coaches, especially AW as he gets all the stick on here rather than others, naturally. You have to have more strings to your bow than a, 'come on you can do it!', or, 'work harder, want it more!' There has to be a science involved, people have many facets. In a particular team I skippered, one lad could be bawled at and given a clenched fist and a Badarse scowling look, another needed me alongside giving him a quiet 'gee', to build him up. Nowadays so much money is involved, the media lionising them, and the parents convey a cossetting effect, like Ball's dad, and perhaps those you mentioned; it stretches into other art forms too-Elvis had a similar story as well with Colonel Parker-mind he did cook good southern fried chicken.

  56. Ron

    Nov 12, 2015, 12:29 #79114

    Hi John - i love Northumbria mate. Second only to Dorset in my list of places ive never lived but wd like too!!The Geordies are very rich personalties i think. Courteous and gentle folk. Yr right re Chelsea. I forgot West Ham. Its Ok now but yes, still a bit of an iffy feel there, yet its maybe a feel from yesteryear? Hammers main ire is with Totts really isnt it, as they are close neighbours really and people forget that dont they. Yr right on their fans too. 1970 s gang mentality still rife there sadly. Like you, Chelsea teams are OK. Back in the day, Ossie Cooke Hutchinson and Co - very likeable. They had many mental fans back then as you say. I went to Wolves one day with a pal on their North Bank. Biggest bust up on the pitch after a game ive ever seen. Chelsea attacked at the whistle. Wolves had hammered them about 6 - 0 as i recall.Outside it was carnage. Police gave up. The Police are next to useless at the Lane too. Emerging from the away end there and that short walk up to the High Rd alongside Spurs fans is very dodgy even today. Tube ride back to Finsbury Park isnt much fun. Sad stuff. Doubt ill ever see the inside of the Lane again to be honest.

  57. Mark from Aylesbury

    Nov 12, 2015, 12:21 #79113

    On a horrific journey back from Sharm with the toilets backing up, dodgy stomachs , squeezed in like a tin can. A man gets up covered in Chelsea , Rangers and Linfield Tats. Goes into the bog and has a fag. It just added to the despair. Recently on train back to Ipswich a yokel boy, pissed up and wanting a fight with everyone on board . Then decides to pull a sieg heil salute whilst screaming Chelsea. As you can imagine the commuters were slightly non plussed . They I.e Chelsea do seem to attract the strays of society.

  58. John F

    Nov 12, 2015, 12:08 #79112

    Ron,Got to agree with you about Newcastle very friendly up there.I always enjoyed Wigan and Bolton and Norwich too.I have not been to Cardiff or Leeds but it seems to me that Spurs are the only top club left who want to carry on the tradition of the 70s/80s.Ipswich for some reason could be a bit dodgy sometimes always seemed to be trouble up there. Chelsea and west ham are a bit more civil then in the past, I used to get a bit nervous going to Upton park back in the day.As for chelsea I am always happy when they lose but i do not have the same hatred as I had a few Chelsea supporting friends when I lived down south.Chelsea do have their fair share of dipsticks On my gardening course in 2002 one of my fellow students a man in his forties, covered in tattoos was trying to convince me to join him and his mob for a meet with the spuds. In one lesson I got how to prune roses and nurture a spud, I declined the offer.Smashing a spud that is not pruning Roses.Sadly for me my Red Membership does not allow for many away games now.

  59. Ron

    Nov 12, 2015, 12:06 #79111

    Good stuff Baddie - there are many. Venus Williams, Andy Murray ish? A good few of the older Toffees wd tell you he wasnt even the best player in the Everton team. Harvey and Jimmy Husband are often deemed better technical players. Ball s acclaim was won and sustained by dint of running his nads off v Germany in 66 wasnt it. It served him well.

  60. Badarse

    Nov 12, 2015, 11:59 #79110

    I think Alan Ball was a victim of his dad's indoctrination, a well-intentioned brainwashing, but without a temporal balance. 'You are the best-you can be better!' needs a reassuring realistic tempering, otherwise an 'Alan Ball' is the result. He scaled the heights, won acclaim and couldn't recognise anymore that he was merely a man, who happened to be quite a good footballer. His super confidence was a shield, which made him unapproachable by the mere mortals who played alongside.

  61. Ron

    Nov 12, 2015, 11:48 #79109

    True Westie - heavy speand and Arsenal has never really been a happy combo has it. Do you recall the feeling when we signed Ball. It was great wasnt it. None better since. Pity he never really worked out. He was a bit Billy big time it seems and it didn't sit well with the understated unity of our squad that had gone before. A few players resented him i think didnt they. His best days had gone though really though he was still only about 27 and thats why Catterick moved him on from Everton. Better deal for them than us i d say all in all.

  62. Bojangles

    Nov 12, 2015, 11:48 #79108

    Two old dodderers with their walking sticks one called GoonerColeslaw Boy one called Spursboytoughman. One to the other 'you're a mug!' no you're a mug!'. walking sticks are then waived in the air menacingly at each other. The warden appears, "now then gentleman is that anyway to behave at your age! " you mustn't over excite yourselves.

  63. Ron

    Nov 12, 2015, 11:31 #79107

    John F - There are a few grounds that i always reckon are sinister like Spurs. Leeds is one. A very crude lot they are. B'ham City another when theyre in the PL its often a powder keg feel. Best grounds to go to for a good 'feel' to them ive always thought are Blackburn, WBA, either of the scouse grounds, Fulham, Saints and Swansea is nice too yet Cardiff - dodgy indeed! The Toon is always a good visit. Ive long had the opinion that we get the most respect at the Liverpool stadia, both of them. Im a bit biased maybe as im very familiar with Merseyside and know a lot of Blues fans but they and Liverpool both have little feeling for Utd, City, detest Chelsea but always =credit Arsenal well when we get a result there. Anfield is the only ground where as Arsenal fans there are 3 or 4 really bustling match day pubs where we can go and enjoy the banter and a pint in safety. Having said all of this, i used to enjoy going to the Bridge, but the best pubs are all 'home fans' only now. Its a nice ground i think and the vantage point and view for the away fans is good.Not been for about 3 seasons now. I begrudge the ticket price there lads!

  64. Badarse

    Nov 12, 2015, 11:24 #79106

    Bard, wise advice indeed, but can you try to convey it to mbg, please? If a poster is obsessed, then it is fair game for any to respond, isn't it? It's the action/reaction thing again. Anyway there's the rub, and with that mbg and jeff scurry off for the embrocation.

  65. Westlower

    Nov 12, 2015, 11:06 #79105

    This weeks discussions re Arsenal transfers that did or didn't happen over the past 50 years reveals a stark irony. At no time in our history have we been big spenders, save for a big name signing a few times in any decade. Arsenal have set the British record transfer fee only 4 times in their history. David Jack £10,840 in 1928, Bryn Jones £14,500 in 1938, Alan Ball £220,000 in 1971 & DB10 £7.5m in 1995. Nicklas Anelka broke the British outgoing record £22.5m in 1999. The recent spends on Ozil & Sanchez is out of character with our past frugality.

  66. John F

    Nov 12, 2015, 11:06 #79104

    I have to admit I am guilty of not being able to separate the club from its fans,If spurs do well then those horrible fans are happy too.I think it stems from being attacked by them at Richmond Station.I do have clubs that i like Grimsby being one of them.My ex wife was related to the now sadly departed Kevin Moore who was captain and later played for Southampton.We played them in the cup in 1985 and he got me into the players bar.The Arsenal players did not really want to know and kept to themselves but some of the Grimsby team sat on our table and had a few beers.I have had a soft spot for them ever since.

  67. Ron

    Nov 12, 2015, 10:58 #79103

    Mariner never looked like a big City club player to me. Good lad for Ipswich though in some fine teams there and they had the best from him by far. Like a fish out of water at Arsenal i used to think. A bit like Brian Kidd always was, though Kidds scoring stats are actually far better than i ever thought they were and in some pretty ordinary sides?

  68. Ron

    Nov 12, 2015, 10:47 #79102

    Goonercolesey - i watch Worcs mate (lovely New Road Ground by the Cathedral) and get to Edgbaston for Warwicks bigger games and a good few the Tests.Saw the Ashes test this time. Theyre brilliant days out when theres a crowd of us. I still play as well, in a fashion! Not a bad bowler/slip catcher. Batting leaves much to be desired. Im Phil Tufnell with a bat but 50 times worse! Do you get the picture? Youve had some good sides to watch at Lords over the years. On WHL - Yes its a sinister atmosphere there, not only on NLD day but when any stronger team visits them. Its odd really because they've never been an aggressive intimidating team have they. The style and their footie is totally counter to many of their fans atitudes. My Mom was a bit of a Spurs sympathizer though, she wasnt that bothered. Never went to the Lane so far as i ever knew bless her.

  69. Ron

    Nov 12, 2015, 10:36 #79101

    Hi Wsetie . that night at Maine Road was a night when the City fans gave Charlie merciless stick. It was set up for him. He was always at his best wasnt he when the home crowds were baiting him. It was a filthy night. If im not mistaken Colin Bell scored for City.

  70. Bard

    Nov 12, 2015, 9:55 #79100

    colseyboysetc; I wonder whether you need to have a chat with your GP about your medication. The last 2 days the posts have been all about remembrances past. chats about supermac and suddenly you arrive with a post about people who are venomous and hateful towards the club followed by the obligatory rant against mbg. Its like youve just woken up from a coma. Im always at hand to help ailing gooners. I cant help with your inability to follow the gist of the discussion but re mbg here is a trick I learnt while doing a stint in the Foreign Legion circa 1996 if you see a post with mbg as the name scroll down to the next one quickly thereby avoiding it altogether. Im sure he wont mind. Your obsession with him is getting very weird indeed. I used to feel that way about a girl called Sally when I was at school and she wouldnt speak to me. If you have found my thoughts at all helpful you could make a donation to a charity of your choice.

  71. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 12, 2015, 9:27 #79099

    Because your support of Arsenal is secondary, Ron, you are able to view posters with your stance more appreciatively and not realise that they do indeed hate certain parts of the club and consistently rehash the same tired viewpoints. Having been to the Lane many times it is impossible not to hate their fans which in turn spills over to their club. One day the police will forget to turn up or turn a blind eye and there will be one helluva bundle. As a born and bred north Londoner I had a few friends at school who were s***s supporters but at that time didn't garner the view I have now. The truth is, there are way more followers of Arsenal, so don't bump into many if at all in working circles. As for cricket, do like watching and grew up a Middlesex fan....come on the Middle.

  72. Westlower

    Nov 12, 2015, 8:32 #79098

    @Badarse, Ray blossomed into a wonderful midfield player when Liverpool moved him there after his move. As did George Graham when he was moved from his original centre forward role. Ray's strength served him well playing with his mate Raddy but as you say playing the lone striker role is something else. Speed was never his strong point. Mariner had his best years at Ipswich where he was outstanding. He joined Arsenal in that fallow mid 80's period but his ability was still there, albeit fading. @Mark from Aylesbury, I'm visiting Bovingdon today so I'll give you a wave & a toot when I see your road sign.

  73. Badarse

    Nov 12, 2015, 8:12 #79097

    Morning 24601. That casual point you raised regarding Mariner is a deep swift running river, for me. If you don't listen to hype or have the ability to practise independent thought you find with experience a filtering system at work. Lots of GaGa gets through, but even that after a while just becomes white noise-it often distances yourself from the pack of course-holding a minority view of most things can make for a quite lonely existence, but usually a satisfying one. I thought Paul Mariner was an above average player for his time-just in front of Mel Charles, but quite a way behind David Herd-who was on a similar platform to Joe Baker. All very subjective, and often based on reputation and the individual games seen by a person. Limited television meant no one could deal in absolutes back then, but even so you could discern a certain class, and others endorsed your sometimes sketchy view. Ron admits to a general appreciation of teams and players, which is admirable-though with that comes an aggressive dismissal of many. It removes the red and white spectacles. However if Arsenal is a lifeblood to a fan that can disturb analysis. Many are able to ride both horses at the same time, some not-they just see Arsenal. On the other side of the coin a fan-a certain type of fan...me-reacts when I perceive unfair criticism. Criticism that can be couched in rumour, assumption, guesswork, cynicism, and having an agenda. A nasty person can apply his/her personality traits towards a critique of AFC-it is very revealing to me on this site who they might be. Troubled individuals are just that, whether discussing AFC or the European Union, the prejudice and poison seeps out. Players get career reputation by happenstance. Ralph Coates was king of the castle at Burnley, big transfer to the Sours and he bombed. What if he had been at the Sours first, would his career have been different-he was the same man? Giroud would have to be measured against Radford and Kennedy I suppose. Raddy could shift-began wide on the right, Ray was more languid. Kennedy is a legend at AFC, but had he been played as a lone striker like Giroud, how would his career have panned out-especially in today's speedy style of PL footie? All very interesting, but apart from contesting outlandish claims, I think all views are valid; an opinion though is just that, an opinion

  74. Westlower

    Nov 12, 2015, 7:41 #79096

    @Cornish, What a potential forward line we could have had in the 60's. Armstrong, Law, Herd, White, Jones, with McLintock in midfield. If AFC had signed Law & White we probably wouldn't have signed Joe Baker & George Eastham?

  75. Westlower

    Nov 12, 2015, 7:21 #79095

    AFC/TH teams for the 00's: J Lehmann, Lauren, A Cole, M Keown, L King, P Vieira, M Carrick, R Pires, T Henry, D Bergkamp, M Overmars. Alternatively: I Walker, O Luzhny, Silvinho, K Toure, Gilberto, M Petit, G Poyet, F Ljunberg, T Sheringham, L Ferdinand, S Wiltord. Subs - N Kanu, Edu, R Keane, G van Bronckhorst, G Grimandi, E Davids.

  76. Westlower

    Nov 12, 2015, 6:31 #79094

    News emerging that Bayern Munich are to offer Pep £17m a year to stay. Does anyone believe the Arsenal board would offer Wengers replacement a £50m+ 3 year deal? @Ron, Loved those two Charlie George goals you mentioned at Maine Road. Only saw them on grainy TV pictures, the pitch was atrocious but Charlies qualities shone through. As the general opinion that Supermac was not all that, what did we make of Paul Mariner?

  77. A Cornish Gooner

    Nov 12, 2015, 2:37 #79093

    Westie. We were also interested in John White, and 'nearly' signed Denis Law, around the time of the Cliff Jones transfer. Was at WHL in March '65 to see the game against Wolves. Hat-trick for Jones and debut for Keith Weller, who had been on Arsenal's books. What might have been. Just read that Cliff Jones drove off with White's trousers after training, so he had to go home to get another pair before going off to play golf, later than planned.

  78. Ron

    Nov 11, 2015, 23:36 #79092

    Thats me Gonnersey lad. Footie fan first, Gunners fan second. A quiet liking for Everton, Manch C, Aston Villa and Leics too. Proud to admit it as well and pleased to get to see them all once or twice each season.It doesnt detract from being a Gunners fan, in fact it enhances it and makes me appreciate the Club they are while being very strongly of the view we need serious change to take us onwards and upwards. Its right too, i dont hate Arsene W ( he seems an all right bloke of sorts and hes clever too) or anybody else to with football. I dont know anybody in the game these days to feel that strongly and football isnt that vital or fundamental to my life, i just like it a lot still. In truth i like cricket better. My AFC apple is the same variety of yrs in reality, i just dont shut my eyes to the warts and bruises on it and im comfortable with pointing out where they are. Cant understand why people who criticise the Club are deemed less than worthy fans, a view that you tend to subscribe to. I first went to Highbury in 65 as a kid and havent been since 2013. Lived like a nomad since and am not ashamed to root for a few teams when not v the Arse. Its great to do. You mistake emotional views of some posters for hatred. Most people have never seen real hatred manifested anywhere thankfully and there's none on here, save maybe your penchant for seeing Spurs and their fans in that way. Thats irrational borderline hatred it seems to me. Assuming yr from the SE, have you no Totts fans or relatives who are Spurs fans? And if you have, do you tell them what you think they are? I think not some how, but who knows.

  79. mbg

    Nov 11, 2015, 23:19 #79091

    Badarse, and when have I ever had kid glove treatment ? When have I ever asked for it ? I certainly don't expect it, I take it on the chin, like I've already said it's water of a ducks back, you should try it, it might not make you such an embarrasment.

  80. mbg

    Nov 11, 2015, 22:57 #79090

    jw, you'd never know if the cart horse continues to puff and blow and stick his tongue out and grow sideburns he might get bow legs.

  81. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 11, 2015, 22:27 #79089

    May I suggest that you reread a few posts Ron, the apparent total football club lover, but on your side of the fence you just don't feel that hatred directed at the management and players which I do and have no regrets about acknowledging it on here. My house is well in order, I support the club and its current management and will continue to do so whoever is in charge or plays on the pitch in the future. How's them apples?

  82. Badarse

    Nov 11, 2015, 21:24 #79088

    Yes 24601, it is little nuggets like those that you have just revealed, which does it to me, solid gold! Pity Bard misses those, still he is on holiday in downtown Wigan, so it's a win-win for him! Am very aware that Tom Whittaker's name is written in red and white stardust. When we look over our shoulders we only see our brightest star, Herbie, but this man, Mr. Whittaker was a big, big man. Just right for AFC. I suppose in fifty years time the starburst that was Arsene Wenger, will dazzle all those yet to be, when they look back. Am in one of my moments when I am so glad to be alive, and to be an Arsenal man. Thank you for that, Butch-I'd even jump off the cliff with you again, but the next time just shout ARSENAL.

  83. Ron

    Nov 11, 2015, 21:20 #79087

    'Venom' and 'hate'? Strong words Gonnersey. I dont see much of that. There might be an overdose of 'anti' towards todays regime from time to time, but that maybe comes under the heading 'caring' surely as does yr unabashed bias and apparent detest of anything other teams players and Clubs have to offer. Seem to recall you spouting some mindless dirge the other day aimed at me, just because i like to see a few other Clubs that im lucky enough to be able to do with friends but'hate'? No. I think your the one with extreme views, not them. Jeff and a few posters yr digging at probably find your myopia as nauseating. You can only polish the apple so much fella. You need to get yr own house in order before you aim yr ill considered barbs at others i suggest.

  84. Ron

    Nov 11, 2015, 21:02 #79086

    I met Joe Mercer Westie - one of the nicest men you could ever come across. 1970. A mate of mines brother with who i lived with for a while played for one of Citys youth teams and we used to go watch him very nr to Maine Road ground. Joe was there this day. Always smiling he was. We used to get to see some of the 1st teamers too. Micky Doyle was a youth team graduate and was always there encouraging them. Alan Oakes, Glyn Pardoe ( ive not seen many better left backs than him then or since - Baines is the closest ive seen to Pardoe), Willie Donachie, Tommy Booth and Franny Lee and Neil young. Autographs of all of them! City were nigh on all english still then. In fact they won the title in 68 with an all english team. I went to the League Cup Final that yr they beat WBA and Doyle scored one. The yr after i was at a boggy wet cold sandy Maine Road cheering Charlie on as he downed City 2-1 in the FAC with 2 goals stading in the Kippax Street stand with loads of City fans and mates around me, giving me gip but i was OK as i was wearing a light blue white and maroon scarf as well with my buddies!! In the terrapin Club after the game and saw Joe Corrigan and Oakes in there. City players always mixed with their fans and often traveled with them on trains and and the Club made a point of it. Fantastic days and i do like City still. Still got the same mates up in Wythenshaw to this day. Thats what football supporting shd be like, not like todays fake and shallow experience of it. they didnt like our class of 71 at all, ha ha but it was sheer respect behind it. Great bygone times never to return. Todays football supporters are short changed i feel.

  85. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 11, 2015, 20:42 #79085

    As a site apparently for gooners, it is sad how many non supporters, who say they followed the club years ago, and are definitely no longer interested and are venomous towards the current management for various reasons, still spout their constant views on here. Their hatred is nothing short of pathetic.

  86. Westlower

    Nov 11, 2015, 19:55 #79084

    'Badarse, After the Cliff Jones debacle Jack Crayston resigned in frustration at the end of that season believing the club had the money to invest in the transfer market but declined to do so. He severed his ties with Arsenal after 25 years and moved on to Doncaster Rovers as secretary-manager. Reflecting back on the changes in football in 1985 he reflected, "in my time players had short hair, wore long shorts & played in hob-nailed boots. Now they have long hair, short shorts & play in slippers." Joe Mercer was the favourite to take over as Arsenal manager but George Swindin landed the job. To give some perspective into the pressures of being Arsenal manager, one of our great managers Tom Whittaker admitted he would not outlive his job. "Someone has to drive himself too hard for Arsenal. Herbert Chapman worked himself to death for the club, and if it is to be my fate I am happy to accept it. Both men died before they reached 60. Joe Mercer praised Whittaker as the greatest man he ever met.

  87. Badarse

    Nov 11, 2015, 19:10 #79083

    Hey, hang on mbg. You can't have kid glove treatment when someone uses your country of birth, if you resort to the same adjectives with our manager. Now take a powder-no not the talc, I meant a Bob Martin's. Oh, and yes you are an embarrassment. jeff you are a classique. You begin sensibly-I too remember 20k singing that song-that is enough for the post. Why do you then have to reshape the post into a stick to beat AW and Olivier with? Give up? It's because you just cannot help yourself. It must be so dark inside your mind that whatever you reach for is poisonous. To put you on the right track, AW will always be remembered as one of the special managers of all time. 'Giroud or MacDonald?', is a debate, but as I have oft stated, Online Gooner don't do debate! You have decided but I personally think it is a much closer run race, and just come down on the side of Olly. Incidentally when agenda pudenda like you and mbg point a finger just remember that three point back at you, whoops sorry mbg, in your case four.

  88. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 11, 2015, 18:59 #79082

    And again the same old same old garbage out of Muguiresbridge's mouth.

  89. mbg

    Nov 11, 2015, 18:51 #79081

    And even giving himself merit for it? what an arrogant old embarrassment, go now old man you've embarrassed us enough with your failed philosophies, wenger out.

  90. mbg

    Nov 11, 2015, 18:21 #79080

    Well there you have it then, right from this old past it fraud of a managers own gob, I treat this club as my own (as if we didn't already know that) but to come out and say it? you egoistic arrogant old fraud, a resignation matter on it's own, it would be for any other club, well it's not your club you useless old French has been and it never was and never will be, resign now and go back to where you belong, your not fit for purpose. wenger out.

  91. jeff wright

    Nov 11, 2015, 18:17 #79079

    I remember the North Bank singing Old MacDonald had a farm he hi he hi ho and on that farm he had a wa*nk he hi he hi ho! ... that's when SuperMac was with Newcastle I suppose these days he would be called BigMac . I was at the last game he played in for us away to Chelsea a night time one under the floodlights a couple of days after the FAC final defeat to WHU. The bridge was a right sh*thole in those days with grass and weeds growing up through the slabs of concrete on the terraces and the iron barriers rusting with an overall look of decay about the gaff. MacDonald like a lot of footballers are was a product of his time some players could play in any era,not sure about 'SuperMac ' though being one of them.He was a bit of am enigma as others have said all of those losers medals in cup finals hardly make him one of the greats of the game.After all it is a results one.That's why Wenger will never be remembered as one of the great managers of European football despite all the hype about him qualifying every season to appear in the show. Wenger however has signed worse strikers than MacDonald was .I'm not convinced that big Olly is any better ,if anything Mac was faster than him ! Also he did not miss as many chances as big Olly does.

  92. Badarse

    Nov 11, 2015, 17:47 #79078

    Well Ron he was certainly Fulham born, ha ha. Saw him play for Luton against McLintock and his speed gave Frank a torrid time; Luton failed to score and we won, so Frank's experience that night nullified the robust speed merchant. He was powerfully built, low centre of gravity, fast with a hard shot. Lots of requirements but am not really fit to judge his overall football skills. His 'bunny' kept him in the shop window-nowadays it would have earned him a king's ransom with the clowns at Sky hankering after comments. As I mentioned not a favourite of mine, on a more frightening note I haven't been able to stop myself singing Al Jolson's (Mammy),Sammy since I typed it.

  93. Ron

    Nov 11, 2015, 17:25 #79077

    Baddie - used to get the impression he wasn't flavour of the month with the players. He was Billy Big time for a bit wasn't he. As we know now, he was never really very fit. His knees were knackered from a young age and sadly for Mac he hobbles about now as a result. If i recall he was a journeyman full back at Fulham until some desperate Coach there (aren't they all at Fulham) needed some body up top one day and i suppose Billy Big volunteered and the rest followed. He went to Luton then didnt he or was it the other way around before the Toon bought him?

  94. Westlower

    Nov 11, 2015, 16:54 #79075

    Correction to post 83703. I put Sol Campbell down twice, it should of course been Nigel Winterburn at LB. Trying too hard to shoehorn some TH players into the teams, for balance sake.

  95. Westlower

    Nov 11, 2015, 16:42 #79073

    AFC/TH 90's teams: D Seaman, L Dixon, S Campbell, T Adams, S Campbell, M Thomas, T Sherwood, A Limpar, A Smith, G Lineker, D Ginola. Alternatively: E Thorstvelt, S Carr, S Schwarz, A Linighan, P Van Den Hauwe (Psycho Pat), R Parlour, D Anderton, P Merson, J Klinsman, I Wright, K Campbell.

  96. Badarse

    Nov 11, 2015, 16:18 #79072

    Powerful set of facts 24601, and I concur. It was ever thus, struggle to convince the board. On the Supermac topic, I remember one 'arrogant' interview, where Stapleton had claimed the goal and MacDonald just dismissed it with, 'If the kid wants to claim it, he can.' I am unaware if he was popular with teammates or not but his celebrations were very 'me' inspired. Other men ran to him and he just kept his arms aloft, or that is my memory. I do remember Charlie George being asked about a future England place or MacDonald, and Charlie just insisted that if he got the nod fine, but wouldn't do what MacDonald did, which was talk his way into an England shirt. Ron, good memory of the 1974 FA Cup Final, the joke at the time was on the old question, 'What is taken to Wembley and never used-the loser's trophy ribbons.' It became-'MacDonald's sweat bands.' Not one of my favourites, now Jon Sammels...I'd walk a million miles for one of his goals, 'My Sammy!' Al Jolson-loved his singing too.

  97. Ron

    Nov 11, 2015, 15:58 #79071

    Tony - i cant recall him bragging that one out mate to be honest ha. Im sure youre right. All i can ever recall of that day is the lad Geddes. He tore Arsenal a new one down the Arsenals left didnt he. He looked great. Later joined Villa and injuries weighed him down and he never hit the heights though was an oft used sub in Villa s title team of 81. Mac was a gob of the highest calibre though!! I agree with MG - i wdt have him in any team of the decade etc. He was pretty good and teams did fear him, the bow legged blighter, but we had far better. Stapleton made him look better than he was didnt he really. On the team of the late 70s. I loved them i did mate despite Ipswich and West Ham fiascos. We had so many class players, they played great football when the needed to, they had fight when we needed it and we could score. So regrettable that we had a Coach who cdt get the max from them. They were a classy bunch i thought.

  98. Westlower

    Nov 11, 2015, 15:36 #79070

    To those of you who believe Arsenal are a tight fisted club who refuse to pay over the odds for any player, reflect on this story. "Arsenal's philosophy at the time was not to bid for a player's transfer. We always ask the fee required, and having been told make up our mind whether the player is worth such a fee. The Arsenal manager regularly asked the board for money to strengthen his hand, but it was not forthcoming. The player that had been identified was valued higher by his club than Arsenal were prepared to pay for him." When he became available another club stepped in and signed him. The player in question? Suarez, Benzema, Higuain, Schneiderin, Lewandowski, Muller, Martial? No it was back in 1958, the player was Cliff Jones, the best winger of his generation. The Spuds got him for £35,000 from Swansea after Arsenal refused to stump up such a sum. Jones went on to play 318 games scoring 135 goals for the Spuds and all this after breaking his leg early in his Spuds career. He was a key figure in their 60/61 double winning team. Just to compound their error Arsenal went back to Swansea & bought the inferior Mel Charles a year later for £42,750. In 1961 Arsenal sold their top scorer David Herd to Man U for £35,000. He went on to be a great signing for the Mancs. Three major transfer mistakes in as many years which determined that Arsenal became an also ran club in the 1960's. Jack Crayston was the Arsenal manager who wanted to bring Cliff Jones to Highbury & the rest is history.

  99. Grant

    Nov 11, 2015, 15:15 #79069

    I hope something is afoot mbg ... footloose players would add to the injury list ... but nothing being said will explain our injuries more than has been said a hundred times ... there are no answers ... sport causes injury ... end of.

  100. Moscow Gooner

    Nov 11, 2015, 15:07 #79068

    John F - remember that 4th round cup tie well: loads of aggro in the Clock End so 5000 Sky Blues ended up packed into the West Stand paddock. I think Super Mac scored both goals in. 2-0 win? Not sure that his form at Arsenal really justifies in his inclusion in the best of the '70s line up though to be fair...

  101. Tony Evans

    Nov 11, 2015, 15:07 #79067

    Hi Ron - Remember what Supermac said we were going to do to Ipswich in the 78 final and we all know what happened there!

  102. Ron

    Nov 11, 2015, 14:13 #79066

    Mac was a braggart wasnt he lads. No doubt. His most famous was when he was a Toon player in 74 when he was going to destroy Liverpool. Turned out to be whats still known as the most one sided FAC Final in history as Liverpool never broke sweat did they to win 3-0 cd have been 7 - 0 had Liverpool never got bored!

  103. mbg

    Nov 11, 2015, 13:53 #79065

    Moscow Gooner, like I said in my post 83674 something seems to be afoot, there seems to be a lot of OGL's cronies suddenly having a lot to say and not their usual brown nosing guff, are arses being covered? is something about to break in football just like Athletics, not necessarily anything illegal, are Arsenal in the mix? it would certainly go some way to explain all our injuries.

  104. Tony Evans

    Nov 11, 2015, 13:46 #79064

    Best Supermac memory for me has to be his hat-trick against Newcastle in the game that finished 5-3. Remember going home buzzing after that one. Great shot on him but, all too often, also too much of a big mouth, before a ball was even kicked, which often back-fired on him and Arsenal after we had lost the game Supermac had bragged about winning!

  105. John F

    Nov 11, 2015, 13:36 #79063

    Hi Ron ,Being the only Arsenal fan in my area i did not get to an Arsenal game until 1977 against Coventry in the FA Cup.To hear the North Bank singing Supermac was defening to my 14 year old ears.like you say he had a hell of a shot and was a touch arrogant but couldn't we do with someone like him today.As for Frankie Stapleton broke my heart when he signed for Utd and I remember the abuse he got when he came to Highbury in a Utd shirt.They may be doing it again if the Sanchez rumours are to believed.

  106. Ron

    Nov 11, 2015, 12:38 #79061

    MG - Do you recall the 'Creatine' storm in the late 90s? All there in health shops now, but its in a different variant than the sinister mix it was back then. Petitt told a few of the Utd lads we d been on that from his first day at the Club and it was then leaked to the press. That was a rapidly hushed up issue. AWs probably right though. Doping will be rife in football and any other sport. Athletics gets the focus as the margins are finer for them than footballers who have vastly different comparative levels of fitness. For footballers, the amount of coke and smack heads amongst them is the greater threat to them personally, but additives of many kinds have been used for 30 years by many Clubs. It seems that Wenger ought to be careful with his holier than thou smugness. No injections perhaps admittedly, but the rest hmmm ?. Careless comments by the Proff.

  107. Ron

    Nov 11, 2015, 12:26 #79060

    John F - and couldn't supermac give it a hell of a whack too! Mac wd claim anything as his own wouldn't he ha. In offs his team mates, he claimed a time or two even shots off his own players that might have brushed a hair on his leg before going in, he claimed it! Brilliant with Stapleton at times.

  108. John F

    Nov 11, 2015, 11:54 #79059

    Westie I am glad you included Woodcock in the eighties sqaud.He is a player not often mentioned but was a fine player in an other wise average team.Also in your seventies squad Supermac.I remember him saying that that reason he scored so many goals was that he would shoot on sight of the goal and by the law of averages some shots would go in.I wonder if he could take a training session at Arsenal might do us wonders.

  109. A Cornish Gooner

    Nov 11, 2015, 11:31 #79058

    Westie/SKG On the Arsenal.com site there is a mention of Herd's goal, from a fan, who thinks it might have been scored against Man Utd.

  110. Badarse

    Nov 11, 2015, 11:28 #79057

    Thanks SKG-nice post yourself buddy. Arsenal lineage began with me by a pure accident. As I played OK, I always played with the bigger boys in the square-those old council house flats, eh? One of the bigger lads-3 years older-was my bestest friend, an Irish lad, Sean. He was an Arsenal fan and one day we went to Highbury together. 1955-I was 7, he 10. Imagine two nippers travelling across London today to go into a 60,000 crowd for a game. I was hooked before I entered the stadium. I went in to see his team, but came out having watched my team! I have children, grandchildren, and a few others along the way who I have influenced, (brainwashed). The dynasty continues.

  111. Seven Kings Gooner

    Nov 11, 2015, 11:07 #79056

    Westflower : I have my father's collection of Arsenal programmes from 1948 until their merged with my own collection, I shall pull them out of the loft and sit down and try to find Herd's wonder goal, then I'll scan it and send it in to gonner ed. Badarse, I realized how lucky I was when dad could n't make the trips to Highbury anymore. I do fully understand your post as my two sons are now big Gooners and they cannot understand how I am so critical of AW and the team, we have some great debates. With our love of Arsenal we will never fall out and that is the most important thing in a father son relationship. Nice Post Badarse.

  112. Moscow Gooner

    Nov 11, 2015, 11:01 #79055

    The AW doping story: Paul Merson alleged 4 years ago that players were injected with 'a yellowy substance' the night before big games - why would he make something like that up?? But then AW denies that any injections were given whilst an Arsenal 'spokesman' said that they were 'multivitamin injections'. Something doesn't add up here...

  113. Badarse

    Nov 11, 2015, 9:48 #79054

    Morning SKG, just wanted to say this regarding your last post. You were so, so lucky to have a Dad who guided you with Arsenal and our players. My Dad was a hero to me, but being a Yorkie rugby league man, the south and footie was an alien world to him, I suppose. I was the eldest of two brothers, the eldest cousin-those closest in ages were girls-so all my footie was accidental due to friends and an ability to play OK. I am told I had a ball glued to my foot from a two years old-which gave me a natural interest, but made it damn difficult to get my sock on! No regrets in my life, things I might have done differently, but the idea that, 'you cannot miss something you never had', is incorrect. I wish I had had what you had. You are a lucky man, even today you have a connection with him. Am really pleased for you. Hope you can understand this post.

  114. Westlower

    Nov 11, 2015, 9:31 #79053

    @SKG, David Herd must have scored that goal either in the 4-1 win on 20th Sept 58, when he scored twice, Jimmy Bloomfield & Dennis Evans scored the others or in the 5-4 win on 14th Jan 61 when he scored a hat-trick, Jackie Henderson & Danny Clapton also scored. It was a sad day when he left to join Man U for £35,000. He scored 97 goals for Arsenal & 114 for Man U.

  115. Seven Kings Gooner

    Nov 11, 2015, 9:09 #79051

    Westflower: David Herd was a favourite of my father, he told me about a goal he scored against Man City? Herd's shot hit the crossbar but he kept on running and dived full length to head in his own rebound. I have an Arsenal programme somewhere that has a photo of the goal with the question "was this the goal of the season" - my dad thought it was one of the best he had ever seen - until CG winner at Wembley!

  116. Westlower

    Nov 11, 2015, 8:53 #79050

    Combined 80/s AFC/TH teams: R Clemence, V Anderson, K Sansom, G Mabbutt, S Bould, B Talbot, P. Davis, D Rocastle, P Gascoigne, T Woodcock, G Rix. Alternatively: J Lukic, G Stevens, C Hughton, T Caton, G Roberts, S Williams, G Hoddle, B Marwood, A Sunderland, C Nicholas, C Waddle.

  117. Arseneknewbest

    Nov 11, 2015, 8:51 #79049

    A propos of nothing, up pops Jamie, sorry Jerry, with a ridiculous and homophobic comment about Spurs fans. This sort of stuff is beneath contempt and has no place on here. Jamie - I can't say I missed you while you were away fretting about the demise of your beloved chelski. You're a wrong 'un mate.

  118. mbg

    Nov 10, 2015, 23:57 #79047

    It's been good to see the tired fatigued excuse/excuses made for TOF and his little bearded technicians on Monday and today (and indeed before that)were made to look exactly what they were and always have been, and always will be, Laughable.

  119. mbg

    Nov 10, 2015, 23:20 #79046

    Oh dear I wonder what's happening or going on in OGL's so called inner circle (that's if you could call it that or he even has one)they're all having a lot to say, we have PV saying it like it is (although he couldn't really be called a wenger luvvie as he was never afraid to speak his mind)we have Keown breaking ranks and criticising, and his no one mouth piece dear old Uncle bob having his say on coaching/tactics (or lack off)what's happening are they all fed up with TOF and can finally see what the rest of us have for years? or are changes afoot? and they're beginning to look after their own arses instead of concentrating on Lord arsenes.

  120. Ron

    Nov 10, 2015, 21:35 #79045

    Skilled as well though Westie wasnt he, Mackay. Theres been some fantastic players in North London hasnt there mate.Pity theres been two Clubs. I think North London and London as a whole would have had periods like Liverpool and Utd had it not been this way. Ive never had much of a problem with Spurs really. Theyve always had a lot of dodgy fans though! ha.

  121. Westlower

    Nov 10, 2015, 21:07 #79044

    @Ron, I doubt many forwards would get past your holding midfielders Storey & Mackay. That pair didn't take prisoners. I've seen both of them put opposing wingers into the crowd, including George Best.

  122. Ron

    Nov 10, 2015, 20:28 #79043

    Mid 60s is a tough un lads. The feel changed after 64 and 69 so ill go for that period here. Even then im picking certain players who later in the decade played in diff positions than they did earlier and basing my selection on their game in that later period. Im speaking of Frank Mac. Here goes - Jennings Rice Knowles McLintock England Mackay Eastham Storey Greaves Gilzean Armstrong. Subs Brown Baker Mullery George Kinnear. 4.3.3 or 4.2.1.3, the latter would tuck Eastham in the hole. Lets see Bolton, Blackburn, Man Utd f--k with that middle and back 4! Cdt play Baker in the same team as Greaves and Jim was the better striker really. I found this hard to call. Gotta have Gilzean in there with Greaves. We ve got wing ability, teak hard defenders with steel, creativity, strike power to dream of and a defensive aspect to our middle plus a lot of guile and skill i think.

  123. John F

    Nov 10, 2015, 19:00 #79042

    So true westie that's all we used to do.In my mind I was Charlie George in reality I played like Susan George.

  124. Westlower

    Nov 10, 2015, 18:41 #79041

    @SKG, If you limited the choice to early 60's you're spot on in naming the majority of the TH 60/61 double winning team & it would have been as easy to name the Arsenal 70/71 team for the 70's decade. I agree with you that White & Eastham in the same team would have nullified one or other. Shades of Ozil & Cazorla? I always thought David Herd had more to his game than bulldozer Bobby Smith.

  125. Westlower

    Nov 10, 2015, 18:21 #79040

    @John F, It was a real shock to hear about Pat Eddery's death. He was a real class act, thoroughly professional at all times. Winning the Arc de Triomphe on Dancing Brave was the highlight of a very successful career. I'm sure you participated in the 3-4 hour football matches that was a regular occurrence on council housing estates. Looking back we must have been an extremely fit bunch of kids & fatigue hadn't been invented back then. Life before computers was liberating. We didn't even have a TV in our house until I was 14, so we lived a real outdoor sporting life. No fast food joints, our indulgence was fish & chips. It must be the main reason I've retained my superb body shape, ha, ha!

  126. Seven Kings Gooner

    Nov 10, 2015, 18:14 #79039

    MBG : Sorry my friend I am still trying to understand one of Badarse's posts. If you trying a North London plus Middlesex eleven in the early sixties then only Kelsey would get in and perhaps Herd or Eastham but certainly none of our outfield defenders. 60 - 61 team Kelsey,Norman,Henry.Baker,Mackay,Blanchflower,White,Allen, Smith/Herd,Eastham Jones. It would be 3 defenders 2 wing haves 2 inside forwards (White & Eastham would that work?) Jones Allen Smith/Herd as the forwards. Greaves would come into it the following season. Never won a league winners medal Jimmy Greaves and then of course Alf broke his heart in 66.

  127. Ron

    Nov 10, 2015, 17:35 #79038

    Bert S - Very sound view there and one thats rarely expressed. A lot of fans say it though mate. The issue is the divergence of that fan view and that of the Clubs i think. Ever since the entry was extended to those beyond and below the Champions, getting into that awful tournament has taken a precedence in the minds of both the Clubs and their sponsors while degrading the value of the home Cups. Its 'an international game' they cry and they're right of course, but CL entry has taken on a vestige of the so called top Clubs seeing it as an exercise in measuring and comparing the respective sizes of their footballing d--ks, even though the reality is that only a tiny few Clubs get the chance to flaunt their d--k as the winners of it. AFC arent one of them and certainly under this regime probably wont ever be. I dont think they even want to be winners of it. It doesnt stop them spinning the image that they are real players in it though. Many of our fans have bought into the myth of that and use the CL entry as a stick to beat the so called 'lesser' Clubs with. This is absurd as everyone knows that each yr we re slaughtered by the first good side we meet. This is the power of a well hewn myths and Wenger and the Club have had years to weave theirs. They wont change now. they could make fist of playing kids and squad players v the weaker teams for sure, even under Wenger in most years, but the prospect of a total mauling and humiliation as opposed to just the usual heavy beatings for such scratch teams if they meet the top clubs in the group stages like this yr isn't a vision they've hitherto been prepared to tolerate. Maybe Munich have done them a favour now though and yr take on it might prevail? Its doubtful though. Good post though mate. Its one that i d support for sure, but then im an advocate of the view that only Champions should be in it anyway. Its a fraudulent tournament and is one that there are sharp practices at high levels going on each yr as i see it, to ensure that only one of the precious cartel ever win it.

  128. Westlower

    Nov 10, 2015, 17:24 #79037

    70's combined AFC/TH teams: B Wilson, P Rice, S Nelson, W Young, T Yorath, S Perryman, O Ardiles, M MacDonald, R Kennedy, C George, L Brady. Alternatively: J Rimmer, R Evans, P Beal, J Roberts, D O'Leary, E Kelly, R Coates, A Ball, M Chivers, F Stapleton, M Peters.

  129. mbg

    Nov 10, 2015, 16:52 #79036

    Ron, and the numpty accuses others of trawling, there's something badly wrong there.

  130. John F

    Nov 10, 2015, 16:31 #79035

    Westie I have also got a tattoo on my head saying I hate spuds as we all know people from council areas hate vegetables.No matter how I tried the nineties team just ended up mostly Arsenal players.Seaman,,Winterburn,Campbell,Adams,Dixon,Gazza,Viera,Overmars,Bergkamp,Sheringham and Ian Wright,Wright,Wright.The noughties just put the invincibles down.Shame about Pat Eddery passing away today.

  131. radfordkennedy

    Nov 10, 2015, 16:18 #79034

    Westie....across the years I've come up with...Seaman,Dixon,Gough,Adams,Sansom,Peters,Gascoigne,Viera,Brady,Linekar,Radford

  132. Westlower

    Nov 10, 2015, 15:39 #79033

    @Cornish, I wouldn't disagree with your choice but there's so many that cross the 60/70's divide. I've decided to save Charlie for the 70's team. Bit of a cop out really putting in Jimmy Robertson, as he played for both teams. Talented winger though & I enjoyed watching him play.

  133. A Cornish Gooner

    Nov 10, 2015, 14:48 #79032

    Westie. I think I would have C. George (just made it into the 60s) in the twenty-two man squad instead of Jimmy Robertson.

  134. Bard

    Nov 10, 2015, 14:35 #79030

    MBG; same here mate. Was knackered after all the games. Normally I get a few ringers to write for me but they have all gone down injured as they always do this time of the year and some of them wont be back till after Christmas. So i have had to flog myself half to death writing brilliant posts. I can hardly tap out a word. The good part is Im off abroad for a week but have to write a treatise or two while I am there, just hope I dont go down with writers cramp and am not able to perform to my usual standard. Its a dog of a life mbg I can tell you.

  135. mbg

    Nov 10, 2015, 14:27 #79029

    SKG, you've left out, but we respect him for that, I guess you were to tired and fatigued.

  136. mbg

    Nov 10, 2015, 14:16 #79028

    Arseneknewbest, that just makes everything alright in the AKB's mind, but it just shows the FA continue to do what they like to do Reward Failure.

  137. mbg

    Nov 10, 2015, 14:00 #79027

    Made up Stat, same as myself mate, would loved to stay on till 3.00am last night but was to fatigued, and anyway had to get up for work this morning, usually finish and get on here earlier but was so fatigued today it took me longer to get my work done, it must have been that long journey up the stairs to bed last night and the fact the wife didn't give me a massage that left me jet lagged and fatigued.

  138. Ron

    Nov 10, 2015, 12:38 #79026

    Westie - Yes , we ll do the decades mate. Good idea. Ill come back to you on that once time permits. Youre ever a Kelsey man. My Dad always was too!

  139. David

    Nov 10, 2015, 12:14 #79025

    Taken in context, this wasn't a bad result for a team chasing the PL title. The Spuds took advantage of Arsenal's punch-drunk state after Munich, but Arsenal recovered enough to finish the game on top. They remain in touch with Citeh, and, as it stands, there are no other realistic contenders. So job done.

  140. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 10, 2015, 11:51 #79024

    Nothing like a bit of social profiling to add to the list of posts on here today. Expertise everywhere.

  141. Westlower

    Nov 10, 2015, 11:21 #79023

    @Ron, I should have clarified the question as to the present teams of Arsenal & TH. You broadened it out to an all time which will make for good debate during the International break. Maybe different teams for each decade starting with the 60's. I'll start it off for the 60's, arguably our neighbours best period. J Kelsey, J Kinnear, C Knowles, F McLintock, M England, D Mackay, G Armstrong, J Greaves, J Baker, G Eastham, C Jones. Alternatively: Jennings, P Storey, B McNab, A Mullery, M Norman, P Simpson, J Roberton, J Radford, A Gilzean, J White, G Graham.

  142. John Gage

    Nov 10, 2015, 11:20 #79022

    @Bert Scroggins, I think you're spot on. They were two players especially who would have benefited, Cazorla and Sanchez who both had poor games. The issue can be debated to death but to my eyes they both looked "tired" having been given the run around by Bayern.

  143. Badarse

    Nov 10, 2015, 11:02 #79021

    I summon the Mark of Nark! Hi buddy. I think you misunderstand some finer aspects of human nature-though it is an art, or a gift, or a box of chocolates, Forest Gump! You are not alone. Most confusions and disagreements stem from an inability to communicate, or to comprehend where another is coming from. Is it not odd-a coincidence?- that criticism levelled at myself always comes from the other side of the fence, and generally by someone lobbing stones rather than discussing? Does it not present a pattern to yourself? It is amusing because if I say, 'I wind people up.' It is taken literally, missing the fancy step over of humour and tongue in cheek. (Missed that SKG-see how easy it is?) Here is a graphic example of the general point in question: westlower mentions that AW has won PL MotM for the 15th time for October. Simple and succinct, but a proud statement of fact. Invariably 'my' side deal in facts-the other side in personal views made of sometimes outlandishly, unsubstantiated assumptions, which has nothing to do with the idea that AFC should have a new manager. It is a form of bigotry. Anyway AKBest, so intent on 'taking out' the man, misses the ball and gives away a penalty by accusing westlower of crowing. Absolute drivel. Charging around like a bull in a china shop just breaks the saucers...and the cups! You should know better having seen some in the raw in Rotherhithe-it should at least offer perspective. Last time I worked there I was in the company of Lenny McLean, Charlie K, Charlie R, and his son Lee R. That isn't those on the other side of the fence-they are the ones the other side of the wall, at the bottom of the garden.

  144. Bert Scroggins

    Nov 10, 2015, 10:36 #79020

    Of course, the issue surrounding fatigue could be put to bed quite easily if we concentrated all our resources on winning the league and used the CL in the same way we do the Capital One Cup. Let's face it, the chances of winning the CL are so negligible that we should send out the youngsters instead....what does it matter if we finish bottom of the group stage every year...the important thing is to be in the group stage come September, is it not? This way our top players would get to play a maximum of 38 games a year (plus a few more in the FA Cup and internationals if necessary) and hey presto those six extra CL games (three of them away, remember) won't be such a drain on their finely honed athletic bodies.

  145. Ron

    Nov 10, 2015, 10:01 #79019

    Westie - a tough one that, but a good one to consider for us all. For quickness though right now, ill go for Jennings and Mackay plus any 9 others from the red side! We can re visit this though matey for sure.

  146. Arseneknewbest

    Nov 10, 2015, 9:54 #79018

    Westie - Even by that yardstick, which I accept, does it not seem a bit hollow/pointless to be crowing about it? And coming back to an earlier point, winning it 15 times is not that great a return over the (interminable) length of his regime? It's all very half-arsed, a bit like rubbishing the FA Cup and then wallowing in glory when you win it. One can only imagine the smug, self-satisfied miasma inside the club. It's the emperor's clothes phenomenon again. Those other clubs' managers - Ranieri, Bilic and Paredew achieved far more if you consider their relative resources. Oh, wait, they spend about the same as us because Arsene and Stan keep all the club's money in the bank...If it was an award for pig-headedness and parsimony rather than arbitrary success, then OGL would win it every month.

  147. Westlower

    Nov 10, 2015, 9:52 #79017

    I only saw Mel Charles play a couple of times and he didn't do that badly at Arsenal scoring 28 goals in 60 appearances. He was versatile, being able to play at centre half & right half. He spent 7 years in the 2nd division with Swansea before joining Arsenal for £42,750 in 1959. He went on to captain Wales but forever lived in the shadow of his much acclaimed brother John.

  148. Ron

    Nov 10, 2015, 9:51 #79016

    Oh dear! We have a fake me now. Im indeed honoured to have a troll!. Ill take the point though 'Ron'. Mr Mourinhos still in a job and hes still probably the best Coach in the land and one of the best in Europe. You don't have to like a bloke to respect his abilities. Have a word with yr Mom and Dad, they might help you in that dept. 'Might' being the operative word.

  149. Westlower

    Nov 10, 2015, 9:27 #79015

    @AKB, You should reread the title of the award. It's the Premier League manager of the month, not COC or ECL. Arsenal won all 4 PL games in October. 3-0 away at Watford & Swansea, 2-1 home to Everton & 3-0 home to Man U. Goals for 11, against 1. Alan Brazil opined that Ranieri should have got the award for beating CPalace, WBA & Norwich & drawing with Southampton. Goals for 10, against 6. Can only be one winner!

  150. Seven Kings Gooner

    Nov 10, 2015, 8:47 #79014

    Badarse : I have now pulled my tongue out of my check and have entered debate mode. Mel Charles in the words of my father "great in the air, hopeless on the deck" and I think others of my age would concur. Giroud missed 3 sitters with his head and will go on missing his fair share of sitters this season. We will return to the debate about missed chances many times as this season pans out, OG works very hard, creates space for himself in the six yard box very well but his conversion rate is poor - the stats prove it.

  151. Arseneknewbest

    Nov 10, 2015, 8:46 #79013

    Westie - that's a desperately apologist standpoint, even by AKB standards. Two days before October starts, we lose at home to Olympiakos; 4 days after October we lose by our biggest ever margin in Europe and are completely dominated. Oh, during the month, we're knocked out of the league cup to a team of minnows from the championship. Westie are you for real? What does your comment actually prove? That the FA are talking out of their corrupt, money-grubbing anuses? That they're trying to shore up OGL when they should really have awarded it to Bilic or Ranieri? Or that the award is meaningless coming as it does at a time of the year when there are no, repeat no, trophies to be had? You're all getting desperate at AKB central - like a group of cheerleaders whose team are down by 5 touchdowns in the fourth quarter.

  152. Westlower

    Nov 10, 2015, 8:28 #79012

    PL Player of the Month for October: Jamie Vardy. PL Manager of the Month for October: Arsene Wenger, for the 15th time.

  153. Mark from Aylesbury

    Nov 10, 2015, 8:26 #79011

    Badarse - the issue generally to a few of us here, is that you appear erudite and possibly verbose. That type of individual tends to work well in cultured environments, tends to have little physical altercations and will generally get on with their business in a mild mannered way. The other chap on the other hand is aggressive, surly , prone to outburst and uses demeaning language to others. He may be a keyboard warrior? I suspect so but this type will tend to find themselves in altercations. So you would chose deliberately to stand next to a violently aggressive man on a terrace? Odd choice. I'd take a side step away.

  154. Tony Evans

    Nov 10, 2015, 8:25 #79010

    Ron - the galling thing re the power / technique issue is that Wenger laid down the blue-print in his early years and then went and forgot about it with the failed Project Youth fiasco. For once I agree with Colesyboy we are joint top and still picked up a point on Sunday without playing well so let's stay positive despite the ever-present doubts about Wenger and the too lightweight nature of the squad.

  155. Westlower

    Nov 10, 2015, 8:12 #79009

    @Ron, Which Arsenal players would you pick to play in a combined Arsenal & Spurs X1? @John F, I also grew up on a council estate & received my education at a secondary modern school. It's what made me the complete arsehole I am today? The good news is I avoided Borstal but these days I look forward to my prison visits to chat all things football with my Man U supporting inmate.

  156. Badarse

    Nov 10, 2015, 8:11 #79008

    The stone moves-he crawls out! Ron recently there were a couple of posts accusing this site of being a debating forum. I rejected that. Strident views can be held, that is normal, and yes I do have many of my own. If you believe in a concept it is fine, if it is a view which opposes another's that too may be valid, however it closes down an exchange. SKG mentions Mel Charles-he was not fit to lace Giroud's boots, though he could have Velcroed mbg's wellies to jeff's sandals-that is stridency but a view held by your's truly. I think the approach of, 'the land that time forgot' mentality, has grave consequences. Something is claimed, it gathers pace and before long in the mind's of the herd it becomes a truth. Older heads should be guiding the younger ones, not patronising and posting in a didactic fashion. I am quite amazed that many posters-all of a similar ilk in that they oppose AW, seem to want to take me literally when it fits their agendas, and are quite relaxed and casual when not. The art-if there is one-is in exchanging for a mutual benefit, and to inform any others reading, or those who want to engage. Outside of this remit it becomes a bun fight. I am criticised for being affable with goonercolesyboy, I suffered the same chiding for aligning myself with GBP, well criticise away, I would seek him out to stand beside him on the terracing every time. Would you suggest I should stand with jj, jeff, mbg or yourself instead? That would be plain silly. We all look for identification traits in others which are compatible. Often we misjudge, or their darker or opposing sides surface later, and it is the end of the relationship. That too is normal. The chap chooses lingo which I wouldn't but I understand it perfectly well. His views oppose your overall view Ron and you are threatened by it, his words for describing Sours, his ire directed at mbg are understandable and broadly speaking are harmless. As said before in real life if someone slagged off my team unfairly-that's Arsenal-or AW in a poisonous way, I too would be quite upset and defend the line in whichever way was apt-wouldn't you? That has nothing to do with not recognising the qualities of other sides.

  157. John F

    Nov 10, 2015, 7:52 #79007

    Hi Mgb it heads a long list of playing players out of position with my favourite being playing lord Bendtner out wide.I remember Freddie was having a lot of success bursting through the middle and grabbing a few goals then for some unknown reason was played out wide to no affect.In the 60s and 70s i did grow up in a council estate and went to a primary school in the middle of another one is that such a bad thing It was full of decent people at the time.

  158. Made Up Stat

    Nov 10, 2015, 7:44 #79006

    Sorry, too fatigued to post until now - the private jet that took me to Munich and back the other day landed 5 mins late each way. Not to mention these 180 minutes of work every week. Inhuman. Anyway, something for those who wonder if TV companies are obsessed with Man Utd: On Sunday, the first 3 mentions of MU was on 2 minutes 30 seconds, the second on 2 minutes 50 seconds and the third on 7 minutes. It was at that point I switched off the TV sound with a terribly weary thumb. Oh, and another thing: Russia's in Europe? - my Arsenal.

  159. Mark from Aylesbury

    Nov 10, 2015, 7:26 #79005

    Coleslaws previous messages imply that he is knocking onto his 60's or at least late 50's, nothing wrong with age except it is meant to mature and create some reason. I see a desperate fighting against the fading light going on here. The name itself just sums it all up, a determination to appear youthful which ultimately fails. I work with quite a few younger lads and I am amused at how Dele Ali is 'sick' and so forth all modern slang and far better natured banter then the ridiculous angry spitted rubbish from this poster. I note continuous attacks against other members. At least the Croydon "M" word appears to be rested after he suffered a melt down recently. The shame of it is when he loses his keyboard warrior persona he has something to say. Shame we have to be party to the spew of his externalised trauma.

  160. mbg

    Nov 09, 2015, 23:18 #79004

    Some fantastic posts on here tonight (you know who you are) with just a few excuse making AKB's making the odd appearance talking fluent Martian and letting the odd fart, pure bliss.

  161. Ron

    Nov 09, 2015, 22:55 #79003

    No im not particularly 'offended' Gonner lad, but a few of the female posters might and the T word is undoubtedly foul to any right thinking person (in my view) which ever way you want to look at it. Call it pompous to pick you up on it if you want to, but ill still make the point and yr attitudes on here have long befitted the profile that ive postulated, but yes, laugh aloud if you want to. Its no more than id expect. Fear not though, you ll still have Baddie thumping yr tub im sure.

  162. A Cornish Gooner

    Nov 09, 2015, 22:50 #79002

    Badarse. Very surprised to read this 'David I am working, occasionally I have idle time and think what can I do to upset a few who are too comfortably smug in their inward-looking existence, so I post.' For two reasons: 1) That you set out to deliberately upset people 2) that you ybrag about it. How does this attitude sit with your 'work'? And what is your work? Humanitarian, Samaritan, prison visitor? Why don't you look into something like writing book reviews for Amazon. Just Google 'Brownbear101' and read all his 165 reviews on Thackeray, Hugo, physics, poetry, geometry. It could almost be you! By the way you've used POV several times, but you probably knew that. Just ask your wife to read your posts today. See what she thinks of your 'grandiosity'

  163. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 09, 2015, 22:44 #79001

    Oh dear, you find calling s***s twats from the Lane offensive? How pompous of you to assume a state school of the worst type or living in a deprived area is in my background. Laughable really. But in keeping with you and your mates on the other side of the fence.

  164. mbg

    Nov 09, 2015, 22:29 #79000

    John F, that would be to easy mate, that takes brains and common sense, something any decent manager worth his salt has, except this old past it one, and any way if he done that and it all went pear shaped there'd be no room for excuses.

  165. Ron

    Nov 09, 2015, 22:13 #78999

    ....and all in the second half and late on in desperation eh Gonnercolsey? Form yr own views on that one of course but do you think the foul language is really needed everytime? I suspect an upbringing from a deprived area perhaps and a state school of the worst type lurks beneath it all but it doesn't impress.

  166. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 09, 2015, 21:56 #78998

    Our esteemed coach didn't do his watching brief on the twats from the Lane and their weakness from crosses, yet from recollection in the second half Ozil crossed the ball four times, we hit the bar, headed one inches wide, forced a diving save and scored at the far post. Selective criticism for ones own position but erroneous. But then again, what's new?

  167. Ron

    Nov 09, 2015, 21:54 #78997

    Badarse - Colesyboy regails us with his stridency about Tottenham. 'scum bag twats'he cries unerringly. Is that academic and strident enough for you? I only ask as most days youre on here underpinning his unfortunate 'views' on things, often cheering him on from the touchline (as you accuse JJ and MGB et al of doing to me) like his puppy on a lead at Crufts, yapping to his call. Lets have a bit less of the hypocrisy eh mate and you really ought to be a bit more discerning of whos cart you choose to hitch your lame old horse to. Colesyboy aint really yr type is he, if we believe the spiel that you spread? I think maybe deep down though, perhaps he is! Buck up chum.

  168. jeff wright

    Nov 09, 2015, 21:50 #78996

    JG, we could have scored more goals as well but like the spuds we didn't do , it's results game and 1-1 is how the story ended .I think myself that the mental fatigue due to the humbling by Bayern Munich is just another excuse the chief culprit who played Kane on side ( when Kane goes to City they can call him Citizen Kane) was Keystone Kos, yep him again ! Our top class CB , well according to Problem Boy that is. So he can't have had any mental hang-ups and was the freshest player out there physically as well . You couldn't make it up. No all of this scratching around by some for excuses like rabid starving dogs looking for buried bones in a garden is just not working. The facts are that young Potch , along with some other managers, has Arsene sussed out - he's turned him over before you know - 4 points in the league last term .True Wenger won that Capital Cup tie at the lane but I doubt Potch was that bothered he wants a top 4 place and Wenger lost the next tie in a humiliating way to Championship side Sheffield Wednesday anyway. I go along with the weak squad due to a lack of signings poor defenders such as Kos and Per plus Wenger's lack of tactical nous and his outdated training and medical regime that others in the game have also mentioned recently to explain the poor results this season. I know on paper that 5 wins and a draw in the league looks good but other sides are also posting similar results to our ones .It's the WHU and Chelsea results , along with the spuds one the Zagreb and Olympiacos ,Bayern ones, that says all is not well on the good ship AFC with the skipper steering it towards the rocks. Get your life jackets on and the lifeboats ready is my advice.

  169. Ron

    Nov 09, 2015, 21:37 #78995

    SKG - The few Totts fans i know these days have all said all season that their pleased with their central defence partnership except that theyre a bit feeble on crosses to the box. Our esteemed Coach maybe hasnt seen them or if he has, hes ignored it on the basis of him never taking other teams methods and ways into consideration on his own admission of course. Badarse - this site is all about yr so called 'strident views'. Do you ever read other lads posts? Theyre all strident. Youre so busY making strident views about my strident views with a stridency that not really becoming of you that youve forgotten to make any sort of strident view of yr own. Its footie Baddie, we re allowed to be strident and to enjoy doing so. Nobody cares except you seemingly. Footie doesn't matter enough. Its 'oxygen' is the most strident of strident views of the punters and pundits alike. Its a type of relief for many of us who spend our professional lives having to tolerate difficult and demanding views, waffle (you excel at this by the way), hedged views, half baked views and even inane and dishonest and superficial views as often as not. You should try a few strident views, but keep to football. Yr stridency shows itself when you wax on about politics and religion and all the tedious irrelevancies of that nature that you splash unrelentingly across this site from time to time that many people feel insulted by and dont really want the strident drivel of that ilk pushed down their throats on a footie site that's meant for fun in the main. Try a few views on football for once in stead of sitting there dressed in your fake ermine gown and yr slippers like a High Court Judge passing judgement on those of us who enjoy being strident with each other about footie. This isnt a site for philosophy and academic debate and dried up views on semantics. Its quick fire. Some of us have work to do as well you see mate. Ill whisper it, but youre a tad boring when youre playing out yr role as a quasi member of the judiciary. Many of the other posters do tell you this of course. Do start take heed and you ll benefit from it. FOOTBALL Baddie - thats why we re here. OK. Stridency in. Wenger out. COYG

  170. mbg

    Nov 09, 2015, 21:35 #78994

    Hiccup, we're all getting fatigued reading about the fatigue, it's all very fatiguing do you think we should all change into fatigues?

  171. John Gage

    Nov 09, 2015, 20:51 #78993

    There is a lot of debate here regarding fatigue on the Arsenal squad but what about the effects of the 5-1 beating, the heaviest in Arsenal's Champions League history on confidence? I think the players would be less than human after such a humbling to not have their confidence drop. In my honest opinion I thought Arsenal were lucky to come away with a draw although they could have nicked it in the end. Tottenham played extremely well and could have easily scored more than one.

  172. mbg

    Nov 09, 2015, 20:47 #78992

    Ron, a couple of good posts, yes Kane had our defence (if you can call them that) in his pocket the whole game, the only thing Giroud has in common with him is they both look immaculate it's certainly not being a striker, but be careful giving praise to other players or teams especially the spuds or you'll have the usual wengerites telling you to fook of down the lane, or go and support the chavs or accusing you of wearing a sours shirt.

  173. jeff wright

    Nov 09, 2015, 20:40 #78991

    yes mbg it's one of the usual excuses the old fatigue is getting our players down along with the injuries one these get wheeled out every season by Wenger apologists then later on it is claimed that if it were not for those injuries and fatigue we would have won the league! The funniest one was three years ago when it was claimed that Ramsey getting injured cost us the title - even though he had already played in games that we had lost or drew and , along with Wally and a cast of a Baker's dozen, has never yet managed to play a full season without getting injured . You couldn't make it up.

  174. mbg

    Nov 09, 2015, 20:17 #78990

    jw, isn't it funny how this fatigue and tiredness only affects us? (when a convenient excuse is needed for their messiahs failings of course)funny that, but you know the funniest thing of all? TOF's apologists probably think and believe it themselves.

  175. mbg

    Nov 09, 2015, 19:50 #78989

    Alsace, good post, TOF would rather we lose the league (or die)than buy someone also (especially when their needed)and i'm not talking about another second rater or carthorse type, such is his arrogance and ego he sees that as giving in and needing someone/others and been proved wrong, and that would never do, he'd rather bumble on and scrape 3rd or 4th again than for that to happen, even though that has been the case again and again and again over the last ten years, but his arrogance and ego doesn't allow him to see that.

  176. Seven Kings Gooner

    Nov 09, 2015, 18:59 #78988

    As well as Tottenham controlled the game, Giroud had a half a dozen chances in the 6 yard box, which suggest poor defending from the visitors. OG found a lot of space and should have bagged at least a brace - now if that was Mel Charles he would definitely have taken home the match ball with a hat trick of headers!

  177. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 09, 2015, 18:46 #78987

    Just read the above posts with a nice cuppa and a chocolate brownie. What the f**k is wrong with everyone? Did I miss something? Did those scum bag twats from the Lane beat us yesterday? Are we still joint top of the league? With ten injuries? With the second best defensive record in the league? Have man city's forwards hamstrung themselves? Is it the training? The planes? The trains? Their hair? Their aftershave? No, it's a game of football played at the very highest level every third day or so. They are all elite athletes pushing their bodies to the limit almost every match now. There are no gimmes anymore. So Leicester and Palace are playing who in Europe, remind me? Southampton were knocked out in the play offs, shows how good they are as did West Ham. They all have large squads too, but are able to rest and rotate. Liverpool struggled with the mighty Dnipro on Thursday and lost at home to Palace. Injuries blighting hem too. United are getting back a lot of their squad players now, hence their results have picked up and we stuffed them. S***s have hardly an injury in sight and when it happens to them, as it will, then they too will suffer. This sanctimonious praising of them on here is laughable. Oh let's all praise them, aren't they good? Best team from them to come here for years? Stick to wandering around the country watching other teams, on freebies or as jeffjunior does, keep your level at the ninth tier and immerse yourself in grassroots football.

  178. Arseneknewbest

    Nov 09, 2015, 18:15 #78986

    No. What did it say anyway?

  179. Torbay gooner

    Nov 09, 2015, 18:14 #78985

    Disappointing performance. However, Giroud should have buried that second headed chance and we should have nicked it. Decent player that he is, there is a reason why after three years he is sill looking for his first hat-trick. He will never be clinical enough. Fatigue is a nonsense at this stage of a season. GoonerRon we have a big injury list every bloody season, featuring the same players, that's not a coincidence. Fact is the manager should have bought outfield players and he chose not to. Just heard the amazing stat that apparently Flamini has never been in a team that has lost at the Emirates! Worth keeping him on the bench for that alone.

  180. Badarse

    Nov 09, 2015, 18:10 #78984

    Here I am, just back from the front, or is that I'm back to front? Couldn't disappoint AKBest, a spoonful of Badarse helps the medicine go down, chim-chim-enee. What goes up a chimney down, but doesn't go down a chimney up? An umbrella, Guv'nor! I find the posts very amusing, you hit the post of the day Chris, 24601 you hit the bar, get me a London Pride whilst your in the 'chair', or is that Beechers? Ron buddy, you do just have a POV,(chuffed, have never used that acronym before-it's kind of computer literacy arriving just when I thought I'd never quite get it), you cannot litter a post with strident views as if they are facts. You also cannot ridicule another's post with put downs. His view, your view. Equality, unless you have learnt grandiosity from myself, but none do it with quite my aplomb, do they? The Beau Brummie of the site. I hope I am not tiring you out with this as it is important, we don't want to see jj and mbg cheering you on too loudly from the touchline, as that is going to be too energetic for them too. Conserve energy like jeff, have a good yawn gentle souls. The buzz words fire them up; criticise Arsenal or Wenger and the pair come running out of their cages howling, clucking, and doing forward rolls. It ain't a pretty sight. Enjoy that, AKBest?

  181. jjetplane

    Nov 09, 2015, 17:53 #78983

    There is stuff on you tube showing how Arsenal travel by jet and to see the way they wrap the players up is bewildering. Arteta particularly likes it as he lords it over the young uns like Jack W who is still at a pillow fights level and is like Gazza in imp mode. Santi is just pure flat out and so he remains .... hard life that. Theo of course is a special case and really does appear to be hibernating .... ever since he oh so sheepishly raised his two fingers in a moment of sheer vulgarity.....

  182. Westlower

    Nov 09, 2015, 17:52 #78982

    @Jerry, You're not wrong as Spurs have won 5 from 12 games, drawn 6. Arsenal have won 8 from 12.

  183. mbg

    Nov 09, 2015, 17:48 #78981

    I see the cart horse is angry with himself for missing all those chances (he must be an angry ass a lot of the time)but TOF is happy that he's angry, well there you are then, that's alright that's it all sorted problem solved, did ever you hear such garbage and bullshyte flow from two second raters in your life? it would even make Cazorla sick. You couldn't make it up. wenger out.

  184. Clockend Mike

    Nov 09, 2015, 17:19 #78980

    All this drivel about tiredness/fatigue is patronising and insulting. The trip to Germany for our players would have been in the lap of luxury with no stress of dealing with airport queues etc. A well-equipped squad can deal with two games a week. We as a club have been in the Champions League long enough to know what is required both in terms of match opposition and the impact on our domestic fixture list. A derby with one of your fiercest rivals should have had this team revved up and raring to go. Very disappointed.

  185. jjetplane

    Nov 09, 2015, 17:15 #78979

    Without even going into the amount of players at Arsenal who are now in winter hibernation. Bit like Alien the movie and can easily imagine Theo and Jack blissfully orbiting the earth and only only crashing back down to earth for the journey to the centre of the top four ..... Santi Siesta Carzola ....

  186. Ron

    Nov 09, 2015, 17:12 #78977

    JJ - You ll maybe be aware of my views on the PL mate. That 'top 4' cartel plus Liverpool being smashed to pieces is a wonderful prospect and its much needed. The teams that you mention are a revelation and reflect the games changes in the view of the forthcoming TV money infusion. Those top clubs have become fat, boring and complacent and are getting beaten more frequently thankfully. Long may it continue. I d love us to have a PL where there are 5 or 6 genuine challengers as it was in the late 60s and beyond. If that means AFC being toppled so be it for me. Even at the lower end of the table the teams are progressing and becoming more sophisticated in their play. Those top clubs will be humbled more often. At the moment their arrogant coaches (and most of their fans) just cant hack it.They still talk in very derogatory terms about the so called smaller Clubs and their coaches. You only have to look on this site every day for the evidence. 'The times they are a changin' said Dylan. They certainly are in football. The best Clubs will change and react. In my view Arsenal are ignorant of the changes and are terribly staid and rooted in their own complacency. They can recite financial strength from the rooftops for me. Failing to change will soon erode that if the need to change is realised too late.

  187. Ron

    Nov 09, 2015, 16:56 #78976

    Hi Chris - i believe sport is 90 pc played in the mind. You make some good points. Nobody says physical demands dont have effects on players at times. The secret is to manage it. Arsenal under Wenger dont. Its clear to see and it starts at the type and character of the players AFC recruit. Its never mentioned after a positive result at Arsenal, but fits the spin machine after a reverse or a poor game. Many players/pundits have claimed the excuse lacks validity when a team is winning or at the top (Souness as one ex top player has said it many times) - Lee Dixon too. Its a mental issue when a teams struggling which goes to your point. Todays pitches and cosseting of players has removed the fatigue excuse from the menu in the main. Travel is all private jet and business class. Its easy at that standard. I can vouch for that.It all sits nicely for tiresome complainers like Wenger to peddle his myths though and even easier for players to hide behind his stories as a result. Even in injury free season players play less than 50 games per season these days. Its so easy for a player to talk himself into tiredness where his Coach is prepared to let him.

  188. jjetplane

    Nov 09, 2015, 16:53 #78975

    RON that is the game now with strong athletic players and Citeh have that mix of strength and skill and now they are truly competing at everything who knows they might take the lot. This is without mentioning Leicester, West Ham, Everton, Palace, Southampton or the Spuds who look equipped to make an impact in the top six. Poor Klopp has got his work cut out for him and Monk seems to be another JM on a lower level. Funny old game.

  189. mbg

    Nov 09, 2015, 16:46 #78974

    jw, again like I said fatigue and tiredness very convenient and handy excuses, as we know it's all they have left now so the wenger apologists hang on to them like grim death with some even getting in early citing them on Saturday (even if/when they are proven worthless) but as we all know never used if/when we win and wouldn't have been yesterday if we'd won.

  190. Arseneknewbest

    Nov 09, 2015, 16:42 #78973

    fatigue........yawn, yaaaawn, zzzz, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz and that's without any recent inputs from badarse. If, by some miracle, we'd have beaten BM, there'd have been no F word on the agenda. It's an excuse for under-performing and showing a lack of confidence when it matters. Now where's my night nurse cocktail mixed with toilet cleaning solution...?

  191. John F

    Nov 09, 2015, 16:32 #78972

    I just wondered if it would have been a good idea if Sanchez who is right footed played on the right and Campbell who is left footed played on the left .I know Sanchez likes the left but when we are short staffed surely it is better to play an inexperienced player in his correct position.I think KeV was a bit harsh on the spud fans for smashing up the toilets as they were only taking the P**s.

  192. Bard

    Nov 09, 2015, 16:25 #78971

    All this talk of fatigue is exhausting. I am completely knackered reading all these fatigue stories. Fatigue here and fatigue there, its a wonder they managed to get out of the changing room. I am unable to run off my fatigue and am awaiting a substitution or even a rotation. I mentioned this to the boss at his latest media conference.He said he didnt believe in either as it increases the chances of success and then where would we be. He said 4th is now almost a done deal so why worry. All this talk of a tilt at the title, he said, just raises expectation. better to come hard from behind than get shafted at the death. Helen agreed but Im not so sure.

  193. Hiccup

    Nov 09, 2015, 16:14 #78970

    There's no fatigue with the 'fatigue' excuses on here, and there's no fatigue with baddies claptrap. In fact, the quality of it goes from strength to strength. But how long can this garbage be sustained before the onset of another mental breakdown? Westie, you're the man with the odds. Will baddie make it to Christmas without throwing the toys out the pram? Or are we on the verge of another huff and puff meltdown? Ladies and gentlemen, place your bets.

  194. Chris

    Nov 09, 2015, 16:13 #78969

    Ron - Anyone who's played sport or the like to a decent level knows that you can run fatigue out of your legs, just as sometimes you can start fresh and lose energy. It's as much in the mind as the body, but that doesn't mean it's not real. That's why you are more tired after a 5-1 away defeat than a 2-1 home victory - the latter boosts testosterone etc, the latter saps it. As for a missed opportunity - don't kid yourselves. The team is just where is wants to be - perched on Citeh's shoulders like Mo Farrah waiting for the bell before they make their sprint for home... All we are seeing is the standard November slump. Let's hope it isn't too bad this year.

  195. Ron

    Nov 09, 2015, 16:11 #78968

    True JJ - The most striking thing i saw at Villa was the sheer size of the City lads thats not really apparent from TV sightings of them. Like Chelsea, very physically imposing yet faster and more slick. Badly lacked Aguero though. Villa looked inadequate by comparison. Arsenal do too when they face the best sides. Even Navas and Sterling look like players who would roll over most players. Tottenham have gone for power plus technique too. Wengers light years behind the times and wont change either. Its quite amazing how the excuses are so readily gobbled up by those who still hang on to his methods.

  196. Westlower

    Nov 09, 2015, 16:10 #78967

    It's second nature to me to assess the shape a team is in, to determine if I bet or not. When I believe a team, any team, has had a difficult build up to a game I take a closer look at other factors. Has the opponent had a relatively easier preparation. Because TH had two consecutive home games compared to AFC's 3 consecutive away games there is an obvious disparity. Advantage 1 - TH. Pochettino was afforded the luxury of resting four key players midweek as a home game v Anderlecht is light years away from a visit to Munich. If fatigue isn't a factor why were the 4 rested players TH's best players at the Emirates? Advantage 2 - TH. TH dominated the midfield & scored the first goal. Advantage 3 - TH. They still couldn't go on and beat a poor, jaded, dis-organised bunch of heartless posers - why is that? For a team controlling the game wouldn't you have expected TH to go on and win with ease. Maybe, just maybe there is more to this Arsenal team than you care to admit too? Can a team as poor as you reckon be joint top of the PL with the longest list of injuries without having something about them? Lucky old Arsenal! Only defensive minded Man U have conceded less goals than our bunch of hapless defenders. How is that? What is your assessment of the following then? Chelsea, played 12 lost 7. Leicester played 12, lost 1, TH played 12, lost 1. Arsenal are above all 3 in the league table & don't forget the table never lies, or so the pundits tell us.

  197. mbg

    Nov 09, 2015, 16:09 #78966

    Gaz, great post, post of the day so far, and short and to the point, it wasn't all that long ago we were told by some on here we had a squad of internationals, some could do worse than reread it, think about it then reread it again.

  198. Smithy

    Nov 09, 2015, 15:59 #78965

    I see debuchy is threatening to leave in January. Please do!

  199. jjetplane

    Nov 09, 2015, 15:54 #78964

    Well said RON and as much as I hate to say it 'the lane is looking leafy'! I reckon deep down Pocchetino is the coach Wenger imagines himself to have been. having already laid the foundations at Southampton and before that he is now building up a very tasty squad 'down the ****ing lane' with a bunch of youngsters. He like Fergie seems to know how to work with the kids whereas Wenger as always shown himself to be a distanced type. His squad presently are ramshackle and the cohesion he speaks of is like his other terminology - buzz words to fit all occasions. Koeman at Southampton has made their situ seamless and now the Argentinian is fitting the pieces to his own puzzle at Spudland. They are a different proposition in a positive sense whereas Wenger's trajectory over the last decade has been a downward spiral. Any other team at such a rich level with a couple of FA Cups to show for a decade's investment would be considered minor in the scheme of things. Arsenal have become a smallish team under Wenger and it is like smallish teams to have the likes of Flamini, Kosc and Gibbs coming to the rescue. Wenger's model is a home for misfits - the cracks are already appearing this season and a crumbling away will be swept under the facade of tiredness and avoidable injuries with players like Carzola looking like the kind of half time emotional casualties we have seen under Wenger before. The only reason Arsenal got a draw yesterday is because those tiny totts still have some growing up to do. Not sure what the excuse at Arsenal is ...

  200. mbg

    Nov 09, 2015, 15:48 #78962

    jj, fatigue, jetlagged, tiredness, out of sorts, having to travel home on a donkey and cart, all very handy and convenient excuses for failure, it's like if you want a day of work and you tell the boss you have a bad back, very convenient, wait hasn't that one been used too? only it wasn't an excuse TOF signed a player with a cracked one. You couldn't make it up. wenger out.

  201. jeff wright

    Nov 09, 2015, 15:38 #78961

    Yes Badasre I stand corrected Moscow is on the European Continent geographically but as the old Asiatic Kremlin shows it was always an Asiatic city by population and culture .It's not really relevant to my point though that United went there 3 days before an away game at Everton and yet after all of the hardships managed to get their best result against the toffees that they have had for years .This fatigue malarkey is used for an excuse when required and our chappie is the biggest culprit in doing it.In fact he often gets this excuse in early before games are even played ! I loved his stressed out lWengerisms in it ,grate speeeerit ... desire... the problem is that you can clearly see that he actually believes in the nonsense !

  202. mbg

    Nov 09, 2015, 15:36 #78960

    ArseneKnewBest, spot on as usual, yes TOF's little dwarfs got away with it by the skin of their teeth yet again and so did TOF, indeed it could have very easily been two humiliations in a week (no doubt this one would have been swept under the carpet too by his luvvies) it was certainly no thanks to TOF it wasn't he just sat there clueless. wenger out.

  203. mbg

    Nov 09, 2015, 15:18 #78959

    Jumpers for Goalposts, exactly, small time is the description alright, that's what we've become under this old past it manager, another cup final over for another while until the next NLD comes round again anyway, as I've said before they should have been left behind years ago, now thanks to an old past it manager and his disciples their right on our shoulders and playing them is theirs and the clubs cup final, some of his disciples even taking a draw before a ball was kicked and now happy with a point. Small time alright.

  204. Ron

    Nov 09, 2015, 15:16 #78958

    Ive no time for Henry as an analyst, but anyone whos played any football to a decent level will agree with him who knows when a team lacks the heart and desire to win a match. The game V Tottenham was such a match.Arsenal thought Spurs would buckle if they made an energetic start. They didn't and as a result Arsenal became irritated and sloppy. Arrogance crept in. AFC do arrogance very well and have done for years. The last 15 mins saw Arsenal busting a gut to win. Tends to place the tired and fatigue arguments in the shade.

  205. mbg

    Nov 09, 2015, 15:02 #78957

    Your headline would need changing to opportunities if it was referring to the cart horse (whats new) it didn't take him long to revert back to type that's if he ever went anywhere else in the first place what a waster (and i'm not talking about the chances)was he on the field at all ? an excellent description/quip of him by journo Steven Howard in the Sun today he was busy minding his own business out on the right, looking good no doubt, useless just like his manager. wenger out.

  206. Ron

    Nov 09, 2015, 15:00 #78956

    Arsenal were lucky. Spurs midfield were far stronger than Asrenals and territorially they were far superior and kept a far better shape. Did they deserve to win? Yes, arguably. Why dont some of you ever give an opponent credit? Its pathetic none ever do. Theyre a very young and new team under a Coach who knows what he wants. Westie - An opportunity to 'put us to the sword'? Do you truly believe what you type at times? Its pathetic. yr comments re yr tiredness are now becoming untenable. Is this tiredness and fatigue nationality affected? Saw Sevilla beat Madrid. They looked well up for it to me. I was at Villa Park on Saturday. City played well, just cdt convert the chances that Aguero would have buried v a dogged Villa side. City are on another planet to Arsenal anyway, that much is clear. Chelsea played well but cdt score. Utd were efficient and patient v West Brom. Arsenal were a shapeless poor looking team. The other top teams werent jaded and whats more none claimed to be. Theres the difference between them and Wenger. The best Spurs performance for many yrs at Arsenal in my view. Wenger out. COYG.

  207. Alsace

    Nov 09, 2015, 14:29 #78954

    1)Good and accurate report 2)Spurs fans smash up the loos because they don't understand how to use them properly. Just think what their homes must be like 3) Flamini was put on at half time because Cazorla was unwell. The manager Kevin, does not make tactical substitutions that are needed at half time. He would rather lose or die in fact than react to the actualite. 4)That substitution was crucial. Flamini fights and gives orders. He wins the ball. He crunches poultry. 5) We could have lost by a hatful. 6)We are running on empty with 12 games gone. We either change tactics or blow up - again. 7)The happiest times for us are when OGL's hand is forced by his superiors or events. We buy midfield strength in January or we lose to Man City. Simples. 8) Consider if you will, the improvement in our league position by acquiring a world class player - Cech. If only we had a First class manager.

  208. Westlower

    Nov 09, 2015, 14:24 #78953

    The dilemma facing a manager when selecting his team is do they continue to play their best players when fit, albeit jaded or do they rest them and play squad players who may not be match sharp? Arsenal have won every game when they've scored the first goal, it's the nature of our current team who generally play on the front foot. It takes time for any footballer/racehorse/greyhound/athlete to regain top form when returning from an injury layoff. Debuchy being an obvious example. The reason I believe WHam lost their first 2 home games was because they found life harder playing on the front foot causing the games to be open affairs and were simply outscored by two attacking teams - it happens. Their 3 away victories at the Emirates, Anfield & Etihad came while keeping it tight at the back & playing on the break.

  209. Badarse

    Nov 09, 2015, 14:15 #78952

    Bard the concept isn't difficult to grasp, you shouldn't judge others by those you regularly hang out with. It's the recognition that it is a workable contingency, and whether it is practicable to implement, or can't you and the WOBs grasp that? jeff Russia is definitely in Asia but Moscow is in Europe-it's what occurs with a nation which stretches halfway around the globe. Yes MU performed well on the occasion you mentioned, I just suggested people recognise the 'work' aspect and consider it.

  210. jeff wright

    Nov 09, 2015, 13:43 #78951

    Hang on a mo Badarse,United had the worst away game of the home contingent in Europe a couple of weeks back in the Champions League playing in chilly Moscow which despite the efforts of Napoleon and Hitler is not actually in Europe .United had a tough game there but scraped a 1-1 draw, they played Everton 3 days after at Goodison, always a tough fixture for anyone,but won 3-0 ! This fatigue thing is always used when results do not go according to what they should do .The reality is as I have shown that these sort of results happen all the time anyway,irrespective of midweek games home or away in Europe. There are a lot more teams now in the league who can beat the top 4 ones more often than was the case a few years ago. There are better foreign coaches plying their trade in England now so it is getting tough at the top that's why as many have pointed out that managers need strong squads with strength in depth.Wenger is living in the past thinking he can get away with having old past players like Flim Flam and Arteta and the not good enough Campbell types for back ups .This results in him having to use his fewer top players such as Sanchez all the time and produces the sort of results that we have seen now for donkey's years .While Wenger stays we will keep on seeing them. If we had won yesterday then City would be 2 points behind us and would have more pressure on them in the games up until we play them at home on 19th December as it is with us dropping two points yesterday they can now look at a draw as being a good result .Of course they might beat us in which case those two points lost against the spuds will look even more costly and their is the question of team morale as well to consider ,especially with things in Europe not looking good.January's fixtures look dodgy with Liverpool away ,Stoke away and Chelsea at home to contend with. Let's hope then that our lot are not feeling fatigued ! You couldn't make it up.

  211. Bard

    Nov 09, 2015, 13:41 #78950

    Baddie you are right of course fatigue plays its part but here is the thing. Most teams have squads. These comprise of players who you either rotate or fit in when you have an injury. However if your squad contains a whole raft of players who are never fit for long hey presto the others have to play more and the team starts to get tired. Solution, get rid of those who are perennially injured and replace with ones who stay fit for longer. What you dont do is keep them and reward them with even bigger contracts. I know its a complicated idea for you and the like minded AKBs to grasp but there you go. The simplest ideas are often the most difficult to get hold of. A bit like organising a defence, buying a keeper and playing a DM. but there you go, what do I know I have never worked a day in football.

  212. Badarse

    Nov 09, 2015, 13:35 #78949

    Hiccup, don't get the hump, but do you not consider 'work' as expended energy? Travel is 'work', and in all it's manifestations is greater or lesser, depending on situations. It doesn't follow that after 'work' a side will perform badly, or even worse than normal, but if you apply Travelogical sense you must accept the understanding. It's like being on both feet beneath a bridge-that too is understanding.

  213. Hiccup

    Nov 09, 2015, 13:24 #78948

    Just like Wenger tries putting square blocks in to round holes with his team selections, we still see the akb's hilariously doing the same with the fatigue excuse. Whenever there is a poor performance the fatigue excuse is automatically trollied out, even when it doesn't fit. And now guess what? Fatigue is actually contagious! As Amos points out we started off with fatigue, but then we weren't fatigued, because we'd passed it on to Spurs who became fatigued? How's about we'd had a longer lay off than spurs which meant they were going to be more match fit and sharper than us? My main worry though, is the more we focus on the fatigue excuse being our undoing, the main problem is being overlooked, ie the referee. Come on guys. Not one piece of blame on the referee yet? You're losing your grip. Need to think outside the box a bit more.

  214. Peter Wain

    Nov 09, 2015, 13:22 #78947

    I totally disagree. Despite the scum having more procession what did they actually create. One chance a defensive cockup which we always seem to make and what else after that. No much. Where as we threatened at ever corner. If Giroud had played well we would have won 4-1. To miss from inside the six yard area once is bad enough but he did it three times. Every corner we looked dangerous. I cannot remember that since Adam Bould etc were playing. Yes we looked tired and with a better buying policy in the summer we should have had a striker on the bench a new defensive midfield player and a new centre half. Unfortunately OGL doe not believe in buying these days so do not expect anything in the next window. Even so once we scored is was the scum who looked tired. Lamela was lucky to stay on the pitch and Son did not get a kick. But of course for the journnos the scum are flavour of the month so it is all about how good they were. Total puppy dogs privates -we were the better team.

  215. Mark from Aylesbury

    Nov 09, 2015, 13:12 #78945

    Difference was Cech keeping us in it. That gave us the platform with the other keeper choices I would suspect we would have lost

  216. Badarse

    Nov 09, 2015, 13:06 #78944

    Just want to illuminate the 'fatigue' aspect of CL games and performances in the following weekend's matches home/away. Began way, way back promoting, then supporting westlower's views which we share. I wandered off and looked for new material, being on a bike I only found recycled stuff; meanwhile westlower clinging like a terrier to a postman's leg, has constantly pursued this topic. Of the four who took part-MU played in England and had a home game-they won but only 2-0 and the last a penalty in the dying seconds. The next, CFC played in England but lost away. MC played away, then only drew away 0-0 against a poor side. We had the worst call, an away game against BM, and played at home and only drew, but against the better of the four CL team's opposition. Just forget our injuries for the moment. When a team travels away they are perhaps travelling Tuesday for a Wednesday game, then they have the return journey. The training regime is disturbed quite significantly. Light training Tuesday, none at all? Light training Wednesday prior to the game. Return late Wednesday so training at noon on Thursday? All very disruptive. Knocks get minimal attention because of the logistics governing the return to England, and treatment if necessary comes upon return to England. This is a very real consideration when trying to assess performance levels, whether it is under the umbrella of 'fatigue' or not.

  217. GoonerRon

    Nov 09, 2015, 13:01 #78943

    A welcome point in the end given the performances of both teams. Could be a valuable point in the end, could be two catastrophic points dropped, nobody knows right now. All those years of being accused of tippy tappy no plan b seem to be behind us - we've found very different ways to pick up points this season which is great. I don't think our injury issues highlight a lack of depth, it just highlights we've had the vast majority of a big injury list concentrated to the offensive part of the squad. He have 14 players in our first team squad to cover the 6 midfield/striker positions, so 2.33 players per position (universal wisdom seems to be 2 players per position) so we're well stocked, but up until Arteta making the bench yesterday we've had half of them injured. It is inevitable that in this event we can rotate less and have fewer options from the bench, hence a higher level of fatigue being evident in recent games. If anything, our strength in depth is highlighted by our 7th choice right sided midfielder having over 50 caps and played well in a World Cup.

  218. Bard

    Nov 09, 2015, 13:00 #78942

    Following on from Westie's point, the loss of Diaby is hitting us hard as are the losses of the Wally, Jack and uncle Tom Cobley. Dear me Westie thats what having a squad is supposed to mean. The fact that we fill ours with the terminally injured is not bad luck mate its bad planning. Im with Jeff its 2 points dropped and might prove costly if we are there or thereabouts at the end of the season. Kane had the freedom of the emirates for that goal. if we defend like that we wont get anywhere near the title.

  219. mbg

    Nov 09, 2015, 12:48 #78941

    The only thing tired about this team Kev is the manager (but we knew that already)and his tired old regime and methods along with his tired old excuses, along with the tired old excuse made for him by his tired old apologists, tired my arse. You couldn't make it up, but still some do.

  220. jeff wright

    Nov 09, 2015, 12:42 #78940

    Westie ,if WHU has such a fitness advantage over others then why did they lose their first home game .Bilic did as most managers do now against Wenger he did his home work and spotted the weaknesses in Wenger's tactics .LVG bizarrely tried to take on Wenger at his own game and lost.He did not lose because his players were fatigued but because of his tactics and team selections. Something that Wenger himself often gets wrong,sometimes of course they work ,or as against Bayern Munich and Swansea he gets away with it,football is not an exact science and luck sometimes also plays a part.I don't go along with your views on the reasons for the defeat at Chelsea we never looked from the start like getting a result any more than we did last week in Munich .Shame the ref never allowed Arsene to have some excuse for that display deja vu the Wednesday one .You don't need to be a prophet to see more of these type of results occurring again before the show is over. Anyone who thinks you have to wait for the fat bird to sing before it is are in reality just dreaming.

  221. mbg

    Nov 09, 2015, 12:37 #78939

    Your headlines are always very apt Kev, how many opportunities have been missed over the years thanks to an old has been manager. And if any proof was needed listen to what TOF said about Cazorla being sick (aren't we f*****g all at the sight of you)I was sitting there not knowing whether to take him off or not, that's the truest statement he's ever made about himself and goes back a long way, in one word clueless, go now old man, wenger out.

  222. Exeter Gunner

    Nov 09, 2015, 12:31 #78937

    If some underestimate the fatigue factor, then others definitely overestimate it. To win the title takes character, leadership, ability to handle pressure, to win in different ways, the competitive culture at the club concerned (a 'second is nowhere' mentality). It'll come down to a lot more than who has the freshest legs. Injuries obviously play their part. Perhaps it's time AFC brought in an independent assessor of their systemic injury issue, as those internal investigations that apparently took place haven't changed anything.

  223. Badarse

    Nov 09, 2015, 12:30 #78936

    Thanks Kevin. westlower scooped the winnings again. He said what was a likely outcome, backed his hunch, (sorry Hiccup's), and made a killing. I now have a part time job counting his winnings, therefore won't have so much time to wind posters up, so we all win!

  224. Rob

    Nov 09, 2015, 12:20 #78935

    It's not often Spurs outplay Arsenal but they did yesterday. The fact they played on Thursday, completely negates the CL 'tiredness' argument. But Wenger always conjures up some excuse. We're neck deep in injuries at a crucial time - again. And the Manager talked in the aftermath of the last Transfer Window about 'internal solutions' ! Does Joel Campbell - and I liked his effort i must say - look like the sort of player to lead anyone to an EPL title ? Internal Solutions….fine if you have them. Not so clever if you don't.

  225. Westlower

    Nov 09, 2015, 12:11 #78933

    @Jeff, You seem to put a lot of store on WHam beating us. In their first 3 away games they beat us, L'pool 3-0 & Citeh 2-1. They got their season off to a flyer, helped in part to returning to training before everyone else. You need to distinguish between match sharpness & fatigue. Early doors, WHam had the edge over 3 of the PL big boys. Our defeat at the Bridge was a combination of a weak ref letting Costa antics turn the game on it's head with the score at 0-0. We were reduced to 10 men for more than half the game. We played in Zagreb on the Wednesday before the midday Saturday kickoff. It may not be decisive but it's certainly unhelpful. Fatigue takes the competitive edge of racehorses, greyhounds, athletes & footballers. If you want any of the aforementioned to under perform, overwork them - simples. The faster the game becomes the more fatigue plays a part. Graham Souness has a theory Arsenal players pick up injuries because they run with the ball more than other teams. Leicester & TH have only lost one game out of 12 in the PL & AFC have taken 4 points off them. Such was my belief TH would get a result at the Emirates yesterday, based on their outstanding form (their only defeat at OT came on the opening day) & AFC being jaded, I backed TH to score first at 15/8 & backed the draw at 33/10 & 31/10. It was a good result for AFC in the circumstances, albeit we could & should have won it in the closing stages as spuds legs & hearts wilted. Man U at 15/2 is a value bet at this stage. They are the only team to have let in less goals than Arsenal.

  226. jeff wright

    Nov 09, 2015, 12:06 #78932

    There were 3 points to be won Colesyboy ,we won one of them and a draw at home under the rules of engagement is always two points dropped if as is alleged we are engaged in a title challenge - of course where Arsene is concerned rules are changed to suit circumstances .Or if you don't believe that there is actually any title challenge taking place then of course a point is a point gained - accept that we did not gain any against United or Leicester who are also engaged in a title challenge according to the points on the board that they have. In reality of course they are just like us trying to win a top 4 spot.You have to stick or twist Colesy,when is a title challenge not a title challenge.Answer when a draw at home is considered to be a point won. You don't win titles droping points at home,anyone knows that.

  227. Gaz

    Nov 09, 2015, 12:02 #78931

    We might have had ten players missing but that starting eleven included nine players that most fans would agree are 100% first team players. The other two were full international players. Of course if we'd signed the two or three players in the summer that most fans agreed we needed then we might have had an even stronger side despite the injuries. As for the physical tiredness/fatigue excuse its just that-an excuse. If anything the real problem was one of mental tiredness after being involved in the Clubs worst ever European defeat (not that you'd have noticed of course)...

  228. Amos

    Nov 09, 2015, 11:58 #78930

    Nobody's happy with points dropped home or away jeff but I doubt that City will be any happier picking up one point away against a team that had only previously won one point at home all season than we might be having picked up just one point against a side that hasn't lost away since the opening game of the season.

  229. goonercolesyboy

    Nov 09, 2015, 11:46 #78929

    One point gained is two points lost, any mathematician will tell you that, home or away unless you are playing a different game. It also goes to show that sp*** still can't beat us, with their full team and squad and us with half a squad. It doesn't matter if you don't buy an outfield player if ten are out injured. More mathematics. Take the point, get a few back after the international jamboree and crack on.

  230. jeff wright

    Nov 09, 2015, 11:30 #78928

    Westie, the big problem is Wenger's inept management .He messed things up right from the start of the season when we lost at home to WHU . No fatigue of players involved there in fact Wenger claimed that he was surprised by how fresh and fit our players were and they had had a good run of results in friendly games,such as the one at Wembley against Chelsea, in which Wenger won his only game against Mourinho. Still 15 non-wins for our bloke though in real ones. So why did we lose that opening game to WHU is the question with fatigue obviously not a factor ,our players performances that day were as bad, if not worse even, than yesterday. Then we had the embarrassing defeat away to Zagreb again fatigue was not a factor or in the home defeat to Olympiacos either - a result that will probably see us in the Thursday night Ropey.Fatigue was not a factor in the defeat at Chelsea when normal service between Mourinho and Wenger was resumed. Fatigue was not the reason we were outplayed by the spuds yesterday if they could have taken their chances they might have won .Paradoxically however their poor defending on set pieces,they are worse than us at it, left them open to us scoring every time we got a free kick or corner,but we couldn't do so and failed to score a goal from several good chances. A better striker than big Olly might have put a couple of them away. Gibbs saved the day with a bit of a scrambled fortuitous goal that just bounced in off the post. Our squad is not good enough to win the Champions League and lacks strength in depth to win the Prem it's nothing to do with fatigue and that's before we come to Inspector Clueless and his management - or lack of it. Regarding the odds on us winning the title well the bookies have to make a book based on current results ,United have shortened up due to their recent form but does anyone think they are a good thing to win the league,I doubt it so their price is no more relevant than our one is .Wenger will be hoping for more good luck later in the FA Cup to help divert attention away from his failures,luck however is a transient thing and something that can never be relied on,it can be good or bad.A strong squad of players that the manager can rotate is always a big advantage in a league title campaign over the course of a season. One aspect of us failing to win at home yesterday with City drawing away is that it makes things a bit easier now in the build up to their clash with us next month at the Emirates, a game that we will have to win but in which a draw would be a good result for them. It's not rocket science to work that out.

  231. Smithy

    Nov 09, 2015, 11:21 #78927

    Don't put any hopes on any January signings as arsene always states there's no value in the January window!i fear a Devon loch is ahead without reinforcements!

  232. Mathew

    Nov 09, 2015, 11:13 #78926

    Offside traps are clearly not working with Per and Kos, Gabriel replacing Per would be a good option as it will add pace and mobility if those traps fail. Cech saved our day, and Arsene was spot on with his substitutions. Alexis desperately needs to freshen up his legs as he was loosing balls quite easily. He is a fighter and that was missing yesterday, glad to Ozil stepping up to his price tag. Another striker with pace would have given a different edge to the game, well we should've strengthened where it was necessary during summer. For the moment, lets enjoy the international break to hopefully all our players will come unscathed.

  233. Arseneknewbest

    Nov 09, 2015, 11:10 #78925

    Kevin - a good assessment I reckon. I also liked your bulletin about the state of the conveniences because it helps to equate yesterday's game with an unrestricted flow of effluent. The Arsenal scraped that result by the skin of their specially whitened teeth, but nor did the Spuds play well in my view. The ease with which the ball was given away by both teams had me wondering if I was watching the FAC 1st round at times. We looked nervous and very nearly got what we deserved. It always makes me laugh though to see Spurs fans celebrate like they've won the world cup when they get ahead in an NLD, only for later disappointment - you think they'd have learnt by now. That's a proper inferiority complex that is. Coming back to the toilets, the latest news is that AAA, Aardvark and Ass-u-Kleen plumbers in Holloway have all declared themselves unfit to sort out the exploded WCs in the away end, meaning that we'll have to wait til the January window to get someone in from the (in)continent.

  234. Nick

    Nov 09, 2015, 11:07 #78924

    Yesterdays performance proved once again the paucity of our strength in depth and highlighted once more the idiocy of not buying in a SINGLE outfield player in the summer ! Our bench drove this point home even more forcefully with the only attacking option a young kid,you can only wonder how the lads confidence has been affected as with us being a goal down and staring down the barrel of an humiliating defeat two defensive players and an aging midfielder were brought on and our only striker obviously not trusted to do a job. I was wary before the game our available first team is most certainly not our our first choice, bearing that in mind and the fact that the s*#*s had played three games to our two in less time, I would have started with Gibbs and Chambers on the left and right respectively in front of our full backs, with Giroud up front alone, Flamini and Le Coq in deep with Ozil in the hole behind Giroud, kept it very tight , frustrated them , and hope for joy from a set piece, then when they tired in the latter stages bring on Sanchez, Campbell and Iwobi for Chambers, Flamini and Gibbs. When our first choice players are all fit we are different class to the scum, but you have to cut your cloth accordingly and despite our clubs undoubted wealth we have acted like paupers this past summer , with Wenger inexplicably gambling yet again on the health of our squad despite the evidence of previous seasons. Overall I'm pleased we got a point and are still level at the top on points, but we WILL need reinforcements in January to sustain our challenge unless of course we manage something we havnt in the last ten years and keep our squad FIT !!

  235. Westlower

    Nov 09, 2015, 10:48 #78923

    @Kevin, you underestimate the part fatigue plays, both mentally & physically. My take before the game that this was TH's big opportunity to put Arsenal to the sword & they blew it. Never again will they play such a jaded Arsenal team. The consequence of 3 consecutive away games at Sheffield, Swansea & Munich on a team thread bare of resources was telling. By a quirk of the fixture list our next two games are also away. This follows on from 4 consecutive away games before the Olympiacos defeat. Yes, TH played 3 games this week but winning 3-1 & 2-1 at home is not as draining as chasing shadows in Munich. They rested Walker, Rose, Alli & Dembele on Thursday. These four were probably their best players at the Emirates. With their fresher legs they were able to close us down with ease until they too tired late on. Due to our present injury crisis we simply don't have the resources to freshen things up. The importance of Ramsey to the team becomes obvious in a game where we couldn't compete in midfield, partly due to Cazorla being unable to play his normal game. If Flamini had started we may have seen a different game unfold. Given their superiority TH should have been out of sight - how they must be kicking themselves. Arsenal have only come from behind to win once this season at Leicester. No one looks more jaded than Alexis, yet he's on his way to Chile to play yet 2 more International games. Burn out is inevitable. The league who can freshen their team up more consistently over a long period will win the league. We need to get our Brit players back pronto! At least we're out of the LC, unlike Citeh. Latest odds to win PL: Citeh 21/20, AFC 7/4, Man U 15/2, TH 80/1, L'pool 100/1, CFC 150/1, Leicester 500/1.

  236. jeff wright

    Nov 09, 2015, 10:45 #78922

    No Amos a point away is a point won a draw at home is 2 points dropped. That's the way it works the spuds will be happy with a point away . If you are happy with just a point at home yesterday then that just shows how deluded Wenger's followers,or desperate more likely, now are.

  237. Amos

    Nov 09, 2015, 10:35 #78921

    Whether fatigue is a factor depends not just on time between physical contests but in the amount of mental energy expended. Arguably trying to gain something from an away game to Bayern in the CL would sap energy levels more than a home game to Anderlecht in the Europa league. Especially if midfield and forward resources are more limited at the time. Having said that Arsenal were the team showing greater energy by the end of the game so maybe fatigue was more of a factor for Spurs. Nonetheless, while it was a missed opportunity for Arsenal, of the 3 games played yesterday the opportunities missed by City and Liverpool might have been the greater failures.

  238. Wear Your Colours

    Nov 09, 2015, 10:33 #78920

    Agreed Kev, I thought that was a good point too. Spurs were very solid and difficult to break down and they looked threatening on the counter-attack too. We found it difficult to find any rhythm and impose ourselves on them. But we stuck and it and worked really hard to force the pace in the second period; Gibbs equaliser was a deserved reward. I was pleased with both Debuchy and Campbell; they are not our first choice right flank but they both grafted continually. As you rightly highlight Le Prof deserves some credit for the timely substitutions yesterday; Flamini gave us a more solid platform from which to compete and Gibbs offered threat from the left where the subdued Alexis had offered hardly any. Hopefully, Alexis can rediscover his form after the international break. On a week-end where most of our rivals dropped points this was an important point to earn. COYG!

  239. Charles

    Nov 09, 2015, 10:31 #78919

    We will never win the league because we drop too many points at home and yesterday was another 2 points down the drain.

  240. Martyn

    Nov 09, 2015, 10:29 #78918

    Under the circumstances a good point. We didn't play that well, especially in the first half. I don't buy the tiredness argument either but losing four key players that were instrumental in demolishing Manchester United doesn't help. Spurs played the high line because Walcott was missing. We were never going to profit from a quick counter attack. The irony was that we could have won if Giroud had converted his chances. For those who say we missed the chance to go top, Manchester City fans too will rue the chance they missed to move two points clear. Lots of twists and turns to come!

  241. Jumpers for Goalposts

    Nov 09, 2015, 10:20 #78917

    Worrying about finishing above Spurs shows how small time many Gooners have become. We should be worrying only wUL6ZGabout finishing top of the league then nobody can be above us.