Wenger - The Stats Don't Lie

Figures indicate there is a whole level of managers above Le Boss



Wenger - The Stats Don't Lie

Arsene: Two FA Cups in 11 seasons – Could do better?


I’ve been firmly in the Wenger out camp for over a decade. I remember being in Cardiff in 2005 for the Man U cup final thinking that it was the end of that period of rivalry between the clubs. Fast forward 12 months and flying back from Paris I had the feeling that the annual Cup Final two day jolly was over and despite a last hoorah in Cardiff for the League Cup Final I was proved right.

Ten years on and I get so bored arguing with Wenger’s disciples and football fans in general about the state of our club. Starting a new job in 2007 you quickly forge friendships with other football fans, in this instance a fellow Gooner and a lovely old boy from that mob down the road. Initially they couldn’t understand why I was anti-Wenger but by the time I’d left in 2011 my Gooner colleague had crossed the floor, whereas my Spurs pal wanted Wenger to continue for life! That’s been the theme of things with more joining the anti-Wenger brigade year on year. We all know it’s run its course and the noose tightens every single day around his neck with no one at the club having the balls to pull the lever! What a shambles!

Wenger likes his stats and one thing I’ve found over a decade of talking to his disciples is they too love a stat. “Our most successful manager”, “20 years of qualifying for the Champions League”, “Ozil has the most assists”, etc. I’ve never been a lover of stats. Criticising Ozil a few seasons ago about him being lazy I was countered with “he actually covers more ground than any other player” stat. I don’t know whether this stat was/is true but I’ve seen enough of him to know his heart really isn’t in it irrespective of his distance running capabilities. Wenger, we are told, relies heavily on assessing his players via the wealth of stats available to such an extent the club purchased StatDNA (a US-based football data analytics company) back in 2012. As Wenger contemplates his future maybe he should analyse his managerial stats.

* 33 years in management – 4 League titles
* In 20 years at Arsenal – won 57.28% of our games. Won 9 trophies at an average of 127.44 games per trophy.

Now stats don’t mean anything until you compare like with like.
* Ferguson – won 59.67% of games. Games per trophy 45.45.
* Mourinho (with Chelsea) – won 66% of games. Games per trophy 46.
* George Graham – won 49.02% of games. Games per trophy 76.83.

We can go on Paisley, Dalglish, Shankly, Kendall from years past all have much better stats than Wenger. Of recent league winners Pellegrini and Mancini easily outperform Wenger. Ranieri is currently at 72 games with Leicester for his 1 trophy, you can bet he’s pensioned off before the club let him get to 127.

The point is Wenger is statistically not a top manager. He’s a good manager but there is a whole level of managers above him. Wenger’s record is second rate compared to his contemporaries. The younger breed that we’ve missed out on such as Pep, Klopp and Conte have all outperformed Wenger. Those still linked - Simeone and Allegri - have similarly left him behind. So be careful what you wish for my arse!


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49
comments

  1. Mark

    Jan 23, 2017, 16:05 #97365

    RW: – agree you have to compare like with like, which means including the amount of money available by Arsenal and other clubs, as well as the statistics you quote. And then how much weight you put on the rise and fall of the club – such as the position that we were left in when Graham left. And of course issues of legality. Quite a complex task really.

  2. Alsace

    Jan 19, 2017, 14:12 #97214

    We are all so bored with Wenger that some really good funny stuff has started to emerge. The note purporting to come from Jamerson's builder was excellent as was "Story begins". Let's for goodness sake stop concentrating upon Aaron Ramsey's inability to, well concentrate, and try and amuse each other instead. Much more fun.

  3. Edmund

    Jan 18, 2017, 15:28 #97168

    Good article, I don't disagree with anything, but you do miss out on the financial constraits we had at the time. Imagine where we woudl be if instead of selling our best players we were adding a player of the quality of Henry/Vieira every other window? Having said that even with the financial constraits he should still have won the league a couple of times at least and TWO Champions league trophies.

  4. Bonzo

    Jan 18, 2017, 13:02 #97162

    Jameeeson - quite awful, really quite awful. Here's a tip write it out first, really review it, is it even moderately funny? Dismal stuff.

  5. Arseneknewbest

    Jan 18, 2017, 10:37 #97148

    Jamee - Be true to yourself and say what you really think you ejaculate imbibing loon. You come across as an abject coward for using all these ridiculous other names. They're not all that difficult to see through you - in fact everyone knows that you're the only AKB/coward/liar on here. I sometimes worry (not!) that your syphilis is having a deleterious effect on your brain, a bit like a spunk-drinking Henry VIII. And coming from a bottler like you, it's water off a duck's back. Make amends and be conciliatory to your children. And stop reading the old testament - it makes you even more unpleasant.

  6. divingrooney

    Jan 18, 2017, 9:50 #97146

    What f**king stats - some made up gibberish? What is meant by - "Ranieri is currently at 72 games with Leicester for his 1 trophy" Ranieri has been manager of Chelsea also, so why are those stats ignored. And you are comparing Moaninho in his Abramavich doped period to Wenger. In the last 3 years, he has 1 league, 1 carling cup, 1 community shield. And he left Chelsea in 18th place. And still he is GOD. Hallelujah.

  7. Wojciek Building Services

    Jan 18, 2017, 7:13 #97144

    Jamerson, you say you big time Arsenal supporter, you say president of Arsenal supporters and everybody respect you. I not happy, you anger hardworking Pole, you not pay bill for work. My workers family guy, they not like what they find in your Caravan.Lot of strange video, lot of strange clothing! Why you make me drill hole through your bedroom wall.? You crazy guy. Pay bill now or I swear, you pay big time! Pay now or my foot your arse!

  8. Roy

    Jan 18, 2017, 5:12 #97142

    Gaz, was that a typo mate - or did you actually mean "cult " ?

  9. mbg

    Jan 17, 2017, 23:04 #97139

    One thing is for damm sure the whole Arsenal/wenger situation/saga is a fooking shambles, I don't know which is worse wenger and his shower or the shower in the N, Ireland assembly, at least the NI assembly is out.

  10. John F

    Jan 17, 2017, 22:37 #97138

    Gaz I fear you may be right,we are being softened up for the underwhelming announcement of a contract.Keowns comment that Wenger is like a father figure to his players is probably behind Giroud and Ozil's recent statements.If he was a mother figure they would probably suck on his baps.Imagine having a nice easy going boss who is not demanding and pays you a weekly wage way above your actual talent.A lot of people would love a boss like that and want him to stay.Some of the players are too much in their comfort zone to want change.

  11. Arseneknewbest

    Jan 17, 2017, 21:47 #97137

    Peter - I understand the sentiment but you definitely do NOT want to drink what jamee son drinks. He holds the east suffolk record for downing 10 pints of bovine semen in two minutes, and is the reigning world champion after winning the 24-hour marc almond invitational body fluids drinking marathon. That's why he's an unhinged bigot who talks nothing but tripe about the Arsenal. Avoid at all costs.

  12. Peter

    Jan 17, 2017, 21:25 #97136

    I'll have a pint of whatever Jameson is drinking!

  13. Paul Ward

    Jan 17, 2017, 21:07 #97135

    Burnley gaffer Sean Dyche to replace AW? Would appeal to our penny pinching board and I rate the bloke.

  14. Cyril

    Jan 17, 2017, 20:59 #97134

    Ron, how are you. I wonder if the bookies will give us odds on whether we will be out of Europe before article 50 is triggered. I'm sure (sadly) the old silver fox could give his tips on that between Feb and March. As for freedom of movement, well its all well and good saying we have 73% possession every game when the ball is being tickled around are own semi circle and back. I fancy Arsenal out of Europe before article 50. Any thoughts Ron?

  15. mbg

    Jan 17, 2017, 20:33 #97133

    Gaz, wanky is the description alright, so what better time than now for the wenger out banners, the thanks for the memories but time to go banners (for those who don't want to hurt TOF's feelings) the we want wenger out we want wenger out chants, protests, let him know it's time to go NOW at every opportunity there's no better time than now there really isn't, instead of waiting until it's announced at the end of the season,(or before) when it's to late, (and there's nobody there to listen with wenger and the rest of them all lying on exotic beaches around the world with smirks on their faces rubbing their hands with glee laughing to themselves fooled them again tee hee) just when the AKB wengerites like always would/will be suggesting and urging we do it with their tired old excuse/reason so as not to disrupt or interfere with the team LOL. we want wenger out we want wenger out.

  16. Arseneknewbest

    Jan 17, 2017, 20:12 #97132

    Caption competition - "Lucas!, Mikel!, anyone! Quick grab this feckin cup off me - it's so long since I last lifted one that I can feel my hernia about to pop again".

  17. North Herts Gooner

    Jan 17, 2017, 20:01 #97131

    Only recently discovered this website and its excellent articles. Pity the board, after the big investment in data based technology, don't read and react to such statements. This one and the recent blogs regarding ODL failures over the last 10 years make interesting reading and completely justifies my not going to the Emirates since 2011, giving the shower of **** my hard earned ££ for them to trouser it or give it to what has become the rock around the neck of our (once) great club. The whole lot need removing and get some Arsenal or just Football people on the board. I'm apprehensive about replacing Wenger but at some point someone needs to say enough is enough and go out to find a manager that won't accept mediocrity and 4th is good enough! ! It just isn't.

  18. mbg

    Jan 17, 2017, 19:41 #97130

    RedPig, good post, yes and we all know who he has to thank for his first couple of titles, yours and a lot of other posts/stats on here today, posts and stats that matter, written in black and white in ways that can be properly read and understood, just emphasises and highlights how f*****g rank average TOF ever was, has been, and is, it really does, how the f**k did, and has, he got away with it all these years ? and still is even now he's been found out, it really is unbelievable, what other club would it have happened ?, or allowed to happen, what kind of fans are we ? wenger out now.

  19. jjetplane

    Jan 17, 2017, 19:07 #97129

    Giroud is mumbling into last year's beard how we would like to the league ... and Wanko Wengo will give his decision in April so all looks comfy at the Ems for at least another two seasons of this incredibly Un-Arsenal club to snooze and grin away. Even Sanchez and Ozil will stay because no other clubs want them and like the **** that Wengo is a much in-demand coach (hahahah) is the same with those two. Bellerin is following them and noticed a big chat about wing backs in Europa got not one mention for him. Watch also Iwobi turn into a Theo as his pay packet gets bigger. The club is presently in corporate limbo with no change in sight. As we are only talking brands now and Arsenal like the others have lost their identity I will be looking at the Toffees for salvation this season.

  20. CORNISH GOONER

    Jan 17, 2017, 19:06 #97128

    Well said Jamerson/Leekey persons. I totally agree, after today's farce CORBYN MUST STAY! Hang on, am I on the right site?

  21. jeff wright

    Jan 17, 2017, 19:04 #97127

    Hi Ron, Henry was never really all that convincing in cup finals was he>? His worst one being the Paris final when destiny called he was found wanting.Overall of course a great player for us but he never did add that European Cup to our CV that is blatantly missing.One thing is for certain though while Wengo is in charge we never will win it or any Prem titles either. I'm starting to think that this is Wenger's last season with us I base this on comments from himself and Ozil's ones about him not signing up for a new contract unless Wengo is still fiddling about in his seat , perhaps he already knows something and can afford to say that .The pair of the clowns blaming one another for the lack of success shows though that all is not happy families. Someone need to give Sancho a kick up the arse all that kneeling down in games and sitting down when subbed with his coat pulled over his head is really embarrassing.Can you imagine any player at Barcelona or Real Madrid doing that nonsense. You couldn't make it up.

  22. Roy

    Jan 17, 2017, 18:12 #97125

    Ron - There weren't any Argies in the Galatasaray squad, just the 2 Romanians Popescu and Hagi, who I think is the one you're on about. Hagi got Sent off 4 mins into the extra time, and we still couldn't win ! Still can't quite believe how Taferell kept out Henrys header, though !

  23. Exeter Gunner

    Jan 17, 2017, 17:59 #97124

    It's not the near misses as such that are the issue but the collapses every season. He doesn't seem to know how to build a squad to last a season anymore. Worse, he doesn't even recognise that's an issue.

  24. Gaz

    Jan 17, 2017, 17:23 #97123

    Good grief it's really happening isn't it? All these wanky comments from the likes of Kosielney and Giroud can only mean the Club are softening us up for the inevitable contract extension. Feels like the Club I used to love has been hijacked by Wenger, kroenke and a bunch of wanky fans who treat Wenger like some kind of cult leader.

  25. Bard

    Jan 17, 2017, 16:57 #97122

    Complicated business this stats thing. It reminds me of dear old long departed Chris who was always banging on about the fact that the result wasnt everything and it all so much more nuanced. Surely its blindingly simple if you are a top club then you are judged on games and trophies won end of. Nothing else is relevant.

  26. Ron

    Jan 17, 2017, 16:34 #97121

    We are building - Hi matey. I think the 2001 Cup loss was just the Cup being unpredictable and bad luck really. Never felt so bad at A final as that! in 1999, the force was with Utd and they were better than us i think. 2010 and 2011 we were just rubbish. We shd have won the LC in 2011 for sure. UEFA Cup in 2000 was an either way thing. We coudnt cope with that brilliant midfielder could we whos name i forget? An Arg lad? 2007 LC - Maybe we shd have won it but Drogba was our nemesis wasnt he.

  27. Vinson

    Jan 17, 2017, 16:28 #97120

    You forgot the virtual trophies we've won with Wenger. You know, the 4th place trophy. Add those into your statistics and he's a world class manager!

  28. WeAreBuildingATeamToDominate

    Jan 17, 2017, 15:57 #97119

    Ron the problems I've always had was not what AW won - which is obvious, and thanks (3 titles 6 FACs) - but what was not won, when it was there to be had. League title 1999, 2003, 2008, maybe 2010 and 2011 at a pinch; there's an argument that EC 2006 could have gone either way; League Cup 2007, 2011; UEFA Cup 2000; FA Cup 1999, 2001, 2009. A fraction of those missed opportunities and no one could doubt the pedigree of the man. As it is, you have to question why those opportunities were missed.

  29. Ron

    Jan 17, 2017, 15:48 #97118

    I suppose this topic begs the case of looking at would have swayed the debate firmly in Arsenes and the Clubs favour? Oddly enough and as we ve been on about it, maybe that possible 2008 Title being taken and perhaps a CL Final appearance, a Semi or 2 plus the FAC s we have won would make Arsenes reign and continuance now unarguable? Any thoughts?

  30. RW

    Jan 17, 2017, 15:23 #97116

    Blimey Jambo you've put forward an argument! Absolute nonsense of course but an improvement. Ferguson was purely successful because he intimidated officials and nothing to do with having fabulous players playing attacking football. Shankly, Paisley and Dalglish were playing a passing game while Wenger was still in tight shorts plying his trade in depths of the French league. Kendall's Everton side was superb and much underrated. Graham's side from 86 to circa 92 was far more attack minded that the dross we've watched for the last decade. Wenger's effort over the last decade is going to be around the 270 matches per trophy mark which is abysmal and would have been greeted with a P45 at any other top club. That's where all the spin and bull**** comes in because if you're serving that up then you really do have to continually polish that particular turd!

  31. johnnhhawleyloovinggoonr

    Jan 17, 2017, 15:05 #97115

    Did stats at uni~have to be very careful of your data and questions you ask it.you have not factored in the petro/leverage clubs or the new stadium.

  32. Ron

    Jan 17, 2017, 15:03 #97114

    It all boils down to the size of the Club i.e if Asl were Spurs or Everton, the record over 20 years would be phenomenal. The elastic concept of 'success' would carry a different meaning. As it is, the stats and the arguments are ll hidden behind 'new stadium' criteria as the basemark so Asl and AW can never be isolated from the stats or the arguments. For them and for those who subscribe to the view that better fortunes couldnt possibly occur because of the stadium move, its a great position to be in. Even then, they blame Abramovitch and Fergy to take up any slack in the theirs and the Clubs case. Untouchable!

  33. RedPig

    Jan 17, 2017, 14:47 #97113

    Never mind stats ... here is a fact that should be mentioned and repeated. Arsene Wenger has only challenged for the title in 5 of his 20 seasons in charge. ('99 and '03 being the additions to his 3 titles). In other words, Wenger has overseen 15 (fifteen) seasons where his team did not or could not maintain a serious challenge. Exactly three quarters of his long Arsenal career he has underachieved. And not once has he punched above his weight.

  34. jeff wright

    Jan 17, 2017, 14:41 #97111

    Whatever stats are used to judge Wengo's tenure by the inescapable fact is that he just comes up as being average. His much vaunted also ran top 4 places in the Prem that keep Syrupy and co happy, because they can milk the Euro cash cow TV money from it, always result in an early Wexit from Europe by Wengo once it all goes from cobbling together points to having to beat teams over the two legs of a tie .Even sides such as Monaco,a club that fired Wengo donkeys years ago, prove too much for the clueless Wengo . There is one set of damning stats that are unarguable in their indictment of Wengo's coaching. He has presided on his watch over the most embarrassing and worst defeats ever in AFC history - regarding goals conceded . I suspect also that there is more of them to come before the fat bird sings.You couldn't make it up.-

  35. Alsace

    Jan 17, 2017, 14:40 #97110

    Oh God help me (because your overall conclusions are spot on) but the method of comparison you have used is a bare average and that is not, as the statisticians say, a terribly accurate method of assessing central tendency. I would prefer one or both of two methods when considering him against other managers. (1) Champions Leagues won in 20 attempts - Nil. Championships won with a defence coached by someone other than George Graham - 1. Number of Champions League finals reached without Martin Keown as the defensive brains -nil. or (2) George Graham - employed 1987-1993 - 2 league Championships. Arsene Wenger - put up with for 20 seasons - Championships 3. The difference is not an average. It's that George had shot his bolt by 1993 and the board had the sense to get rid. Wenger was finished 10 years ago when he failed to win a very winnable league. TEN YEARS.

  36. mbg

    Jan 17, 2017, 14:35 #97109

    RW, and thanks for reminding us off Fergie, Mourniho and George Graham, proper stats, and all those before him Paisley, Shankly etc, and of course all the young bucks you've mentioned who have out performed him, although the AKB's will not be impressed with you they're probably organising a petition as we speak to have barred and/or out moulding voodoo dolls. wenger and Ozil out.

  37. mbg

    Jan 17, 2017, 14:03 #97108

    Excellent article RW, yes the AKB wengerites love a good stat, well they used to anyway as you don't hear to many nowadays from his luvvies, there used to be those on here who would spit them out like grape seeds, but of course would be countered right back with a proper one's, one's that matter, one's that matter to proper fans, like failure in the PL, failure in Europe, signings, tactics, (lack off)second raters, humiliations, embarrassments, and everything else that went with them, etc, etc. wenger out

  38. WeAreBuildingATeamToDominate

    Jan 17, 2017, 13:47 #97106

    I gave up on AW statistics after reading in 2009 that Deckchair Denilson had a pass completage of 70%. Passes completed FFS. I can remember telling the bloke "WFT, is he a quarterback or something?" The only stat that matters is the one shown on the top left hand of the screen.

  39. Bonzo

    Jan 17, 2017, 13:34 #97104

    Can't help thinking that Wenger is acting likes it's his last year. Very little being said from him a withdrawal if you like.

  40. jjetplane

    Jan 17, 2017, 13:18 #97101

    Testing some media climate we see 5 live on their monday night analysis of the PL did not even mention Arsenal once! Thought they might have got on to Sanchez but not a word. Media narrative is Arsenal thereabouts for top 6 finishbut more interesting the development at Everton under Koeman. Even seeing Hull get a suprise win under a new coach is more interesting than Arsenal winning 4 nil away to the bottom club in the league. Looking at the bench with Barca reject with coat over head and Wenger adjusting his bony arse you can see why they get a wide berth. Much more of this and Arsenal will not be able to rely so much or their tourist suport. Now as indifferent as I am the Spuds are looking ike the best oiled machine in the PL presently. GG would like that defence.

  41. !No Pasaran!

    Jan 17, 2017, 12:41 #97100

    There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. The truth is out there on the pitch. It's been before our very eyes for the latter years of Wenger's fiefdom. How many of us approach games against the better sides with any confidence?

  42. Arseneknewbest

    Jan 17, 2017, 12:38 #97099

    Have a valium Vivek. "Everyone knows that 90% of all statistics are made up on the spot" and other such witticisms. It's the crushing mediocrity of the club and the appalling ineptitude of the manager that everyone acknowledges. Nevertheless, RW makes the correct point that wengo is not up to scratch. What's "piss poor" of course is that the chihuahua remains scratching his balls and licking his ring-piece in the kennel while bringing about its slow and sorry demise.

  43. Siddy

    Jan 17, 2017, 12:24 #97098

    RW - interesting stuff but I don't get it that you are using stats to illustrate your point when you are so dismissive of stats! I guess, like me, you are simply at the end of your tether with W***er.

  44. Redshirtswhitesleeves

    Jan 17, 2017, 11:59 #97096

    Yes Wenger is way past his sell by date whichever way you look at it. You only need look at him on the sidelines fiddling with his zip or sat on his hands. He only gets up to berate the 4th official over some ill-perceived wrong doing, or to make his formulaic and pre planned substitutions from the 67th minute on. The top managers are on their feet shouting instructions and encouragement, making tactical in-game adjustments. Wenger doesn't have any tactics beyond tippy-tapping the opposition into submission (or boredom). Other teams turn up with a game plan they have worked on all week. Our game plan is the same whoever the opposition and its so blatantly obvious that our defence isn't even coached in the basics! I would love Simeone to roll up here and shake things up but we all know that ain't happening sadly. Instead we will be treated to a bonus further 2 groundhog seasons. Talking of other managers I'm increasingly impressed with pochetino though it pains me to say it. He has a big future I just hope it's not with the scum

  45. Vivek

    Jan 17, 2017, 11:55 #97095

    I am Wenger out too but its difficult to make an argument when you dish out piss poor statistical work such as this. I sincerely hope you weren't serious when deriving your games per trophy stat because any sane person would know that it represents skewing information to suit your argument. There is so much data and analysis out there that show why Wenger shouldn't continue. try reading all that before coming up with nonsense such as this.

  46. Bard

    Jan 17, 2017, 11:50 #97094

    Very good post RW, Confirmation if any were needed that he has never been better than the 'best of the rest'. Its a post that might set the cat among the pigeons on Untold, they love a stat over there. However what you have omitted is how much money Arsenal have raked in under his tenure, thats why he has been a such a favourite at board level, he is the gift that keeps on giving.

  47. Arseneknewbest

    Jan 17, 2017, 11:36 #97093

    RW - Thanks - good read. Yet more evidence as to why Wengo does not stand up to scrutiny. Would be interesting to know how his performance compares to the others at different milestones of his tenure. He'd evidently be in much better shape if the analysis was just up to the end of our time at THOF. But the point is that he's p*ssed his legacy away through stubbornness, selfishness and by lying perennially to the fans. No-one should live on past glories least of all those connected with football clubs. That way madness lies in the shape of Newcastle Liverpool and Spuds. Nevertheless that's where our narrative is heading all because of our board and the chihuahua. My concern is that even after he's left there will be division amongst us that saw the light years ago, and the antediluvian knuckle scrapers like Jamee son who'd rather carry on lying to themselves than admit they're wrong. For a club like ours to boast about something as unimportant as consecutive years of qualifying for a bulls*t tournament is a sign of how low we've sunk. Although I frequently went to Europe in 90s watching us in the CWC, the annual euro bollockry is nought compared to winning domestic trophies.

  48. CB

    Jan 17, 2017, 11:27 #97092

    You've completely left out the 4th place trophy. If you count that he must be the greatest manager ever

  49. Peter

    Jan 17, 2017, 11:18 #97091

    Very good RW. All the true supporters of this club know these stats but the only people who do not are The Board and share holders because they still get paid whatever. We spend thousands of pounds every year to see no return. That is why so many of us true supporters do not have season tickets anymore. But do the club think of us no they don't. I just hope that change will come before I am too old. To quote Paul McCartney:- "When I get older losing my hair, will yoi still be winning trophes, when I'm 64". Well I am now 64 and a trophy is not anytime in sight.