Safe Standing – A No Brainer?

Supporters invited to complete AST survey on the issue



Safe Standing – A No Brainer?


So, to cut to the quick, the Arsenal Supporters Trust have been working hard on supporters issues in recent years, and one of those is the safe standing campaign. The main purpose of this article is to invite supporters to express their opinions on the matter by completing a Safe Standing survey that the Trust have launched to get the views of Arsenal fans about the idea of introducing it to the Emirates. It takes about 2 minutes to complete, or longer if you wish to leave comments where invited.

Here is a brief summary of the AST meeting which includes links to pages with a video about what has happened at Celtic as well as some details about the Football Supporters Federation campaign.

On the latter, kudos to Jon Darch who has been at the forefront of this campaign for more years than I care to remember. I recall delivering and unloading the FSF’s safe standing demonstration unit to the Houses of Parliament for a meeting in a transit van a good few years back, at a time when the campaign had already been running for some time. Jon told me that in reality, before safe standing could happen, a couple of particular individual senior police figures would have to retire, as there was no way the police would approve a change in the law until they did. Not knowing which individuals these were, I can only hope that they are no longer a barrier to what seems to me a no brainer.

And this is why. Fans stand at Premier League football matches. In the away sections, and in particular areas of the home stands. There was a time when local safety representatives tried to stop this by reducing the number of seats made available in these areas to try and persuade supporters to sit down, and many will recall when Arsenal stewards attempted to get fans in the REDsection or Singing Section in blocks 5 and 6 to sit down, but that’s all gone quiet now. Standing is informally accepted in certain areas because of the sheer mass of fans doing it. So why not make it safe? Initially, the cost of admission is not an issue, because let’s face it, those who are standing are content to pay the same money as they would to sit down or they would not continue to attend.

I am aware that some fans rarely go to away matches because they are unable to stand up in a confined space for a long period of time. They accept the fact that fans are going to stand, so choose to preserve their health by watching away games on the box. One particular positive about the idea of safe standing for away sections is that it could mean that places are sold as either standing or sitting, as there are a good number of supporters that would prefer to sit at matches, but stand simply to be able to see the game.

So anyway, once we accept that people are going to stand at football matches – and in reality, the clubs have accepted this, as it’s happening every matchday – then let’s make it safe. If it’s going on, and allowed to go on, then its negligent to allow people to put themselves at physical risk when it is so easy to put in place physical changes to stadiums which will prevent people toppling over the row in front. People lose balance, especially during goal celebrations. I remember a friend going about three rows forward when Arsenal scored against Parma in Copenhagen – and that was a pretty steep stand. Many have been injured in this way.

So it’s a no brainer. If you are going to allow people to stand, then give them an environment in which they are less likely to get hurt. This is not about a return to the circumstances that created the Hillsborough tragedy. With safe standing, people would never be able to get crushed in the same way.

Anyway, that’s my opinion, now you can express yours by completing the survey. At present, it looks like Arsenal might be the last Premier League club to back the campaign.

Over 30 years ago, the club proudly stood firm against the introduction of fencing to pen in supporters. Now, what is the problem? Are they worried people might start campaigning for cheaper tickets to watch the football if they are standing or something? Time to think of people’s safety before profit for a change…

Once more, here’s a link to the AST survey.


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32
comments

  1. mbg

    Feb 05, 2017, 1:17 #97765

    Any resignation yet ? I suppose you need balls for that, something this old fraud of a manager certainly hasn't got, and what about these die hard away fans ? (i'd like to know die hard to what or who)what did they think of it ? were they happy ? were they heard ? they don't come out of this smelling off roses either. wenger out now.

  2. Paulward

    Feb 04, 2017, 21:12 #97764

    Wouldn't back us to qualify for the Europa league on the evidence of this week. Surely none of the other top six sides are as bad as us ?Its a terrible indictment of the PL if they are. The frightening thing is there's every chance things will get worse before they get better, so there you have our choice ,3 more years of this turgid dross, or lurch towards mid table under the cheapest manager our hopeless board can find. See how many of the johnny come latelys hang around then.Honestly struggle to recognise this club as the one I've supported my whole life, Wenger out.

  3. Alsace

    Feb 04, 2017, 19:46 #97763

    How dare you call Wenger 'Zippy', the much loved puppet with a zip on his mouth from Rainbow. Zippy may have been mindlessly opinionated and a ranter, but at least he had the capacity to learn and to remember. Mr Wenger is not Zippy, he's C. montgomery Burns.

  4. David1

    Feb 04, 2017, 19:29 #97762

    Utterly predictable, especially after Tuesday. The only way zippy will go is by his own sword, and it's hard to see that happening. As long as Arsenal qualify for the CL,he will retain the full support of the board.

  5. Paulward

    Feb 04, 2017, 19:25 #97761

    Another piss poor performance, the whole coaching and playing staff have as much back bone as a jelly fish. Hang your head in shame Wenger, its 2017 and you are way out of your depth: resign NOW. Ashamed of my team this week, pathetic!

  6. mbg

    Feb 04, 2017, 18:48 #97760

    I'm sure all the away fans stood today, did it make any difference ? did it f**k, and it won't, it's about time these groups got their priorities right instead of asking for support for trivial matters, the only thing that matters at the moment is getting this old past it embarrassment out of the club, at least the position he's in now. wenger out tonight.

  7. RegW

    Feb 04, 2017, 18:38 #97759

    Neville, Souness etal have been saying the same thing for years now. Too open, full backs undisciplined, too easy to play against, don't set out to stop the opposition, no desire to do the ugly things, players not tracking back when, like Wally today, they've seen the danger. He advocates change every time he points out Clouseau's failings but someone holding up a banner saying the same thing is an idiot! You didn't have to be Mystic Meg to know what was on the cards today. Fecking idiot! Let's hope someone at the club locks Clouseau in a room with a revolver after the inevitable Bayern debacle

  8. Yes its Ron

    Feb 04, 2017, 18:23 #97758

    Never saw it but think positive guys. Its another nudge in the direction for change and i sort of feel that its another shove in Wengers mindset to coax him toward the door. Was it a stroll for Chelsea? I think 3-1 was a score that many would have predicted wasnt it?

  9. Siddy

    Feb 04, 2017, 17:37 #97757

    We are a laughing stock. And Gary Neville is a busy little c***. Do you think he'd be supportive of Fergie if he went 12 years without winning the PL or CL? He's just trying to wind us up. And his point about the "idiot" who brought the banner was idiotic in the extreme. He said the fan had brought it without knowing what was going to happen! What's he supposed to do, come with a blank banner and colouring pens????!!!! The whole point of the banner is that the fan was confident we'd f*** it up, as usual. The truth is that in this day and age, fans are generally treated with contempt. We have the right to protest. I can't work out whether the whole club will fall apart when Kim JungWenger finally goes or whether all we need is a fresh approach.

  10. mbg

    Feb 04, 2017, 16:21 #97756

    jj, yes did you hear him ? slabbering away with f*****g excuse after excuse, first goal 100% foul, players not motivated, senior players not giving 100% etc, and on he droned rhyming them off, not his fault though nothing to do with him what a fooking fraud, I heard speeritt been mentioned in among the mumbling he must have been talking about and referring to Chelsea. Go now you embarrassment.

  11. markymark

    Feb 04, 2017, 16:07 #97755

    Just in case you are missing Squeak or Jamee. 1: it's not like we've been relegated 2: man up / testicle size questioning 3: Mr Wenger must stay 4: Jamee is a super supporter with 15 houses 5: BBA can handle himself and wants some! 6: err can't think of anything else. So that was the usual pile of listless half hearted no show crap!

  12. jeff wright

    Feb 04, 2017, 15:46 #97754

    mbg,yes the chickens for old clueless arrogant Arsene have come home to roost ..cluck..cluck..cluck... he has made a right old Horlicks again of trying to make a title challenge ...not one since 2004! How anyone can defend the clown is beyond belief.Klopp and his flops though are doing their best to throw him a top 4 life-line that he does not deserve.

  13. Aylesbury Gooner

    Feb 04, 2017, 15:41 #97753

    mbg- totally agree with your post Hazard should have been taken out long before he got to the penalty area,was wanting to take him out myself as the pansies were watching him go by. Compare to Chelsea lots of fouls by different players to break up play and better in every department.And was it Gary Neville who called the supporter holding up his enough is enough banner an idiot why?? Bring George Graham back to sort this chaos out.

  14. mbg

    Feb 04, 2017, 15:11 #97752

    jw, yes mate TOF and all his pansies f*****g embarrassing Hazzard running through and beating 5 wenger fairies knocking two of them off the ball onto their arses with minimum effort to score, and the idiot in a hat ? nowhere to hide against a real team of men with ambition. Resign now you embarrassment.

  15. jjetplane

    Feb 04, 2017, 15:10 #97751

    Wenger's record against the top six is an embarrassment and he was just on mumbling about lacking maturity giving the ball away. Not immaturity but just being **** players - Ozil and Sanchez included. Everythiing about this club stinks and Wally just sums it all up. So no suprises other than Chelsea simply coasted and went easy though Untold reckon it were them pesky officials again so from the boardroom to the team to the fans Arsenal just ain't Arsenal anymore. When Fabregas scored he was embarrassed for what the club has become, just putting a sick dog asleep. Talking of dogs and banners ...... haha **** 'em!

  16. jeff wright

    Feb 04, 2017, 14:52 #97750

    Embarrassing is not the word to descrbe that shambolic passionless show ...just another example of typical Wengo slow passing move build-ups a weak midfield a disorganized defence ...Keystone Kos again being exposed for the Sunday pub league player that he is and the ex-Chelsea motor-cycle courier showing that along with Wengo himself seated in the stand that they are past their sell-buy dates. As some said how long do we have to put up with this crap ...how long is a piece of string ...Wengo is working on that .Glum looked Glum and Glummer ever glummer .They only have the money to motivate them and even that looks as though it is not enough. You couldn't make it up.

  17. CBee

    Feb 04, 2017, 14:39 #97748

    Totally predictable. How much longer do we have to suffer this cr@p?

  18. mbg

    Feb 04, 2017, 14:36 #97747

    Who's fault is that ABK's ? no more f*****g excuses, no more blaming everyone else, this manager is an embarrassment, we want wenger out now, f*****g clueless go now you embarrassment.

  19. Exeter Gunner

    Feb 04, 2017, 9:42 #97743

    To argue against safe standing as being inherently dangerous is to argue against groups of people standing together anywhere. A football ground could actually be one of the safest places for people to stand together as you can manage the flow through the turnstile and let no more in when it reaches a certain point. And of course clubs would have to offer cheaper tickets to stand than they can to sit. The atmosphere would improve immensely - and think how much easier it would be to get Wenger Out chants going. That should get most on here on board.

  20. markymark

    Feb 04, 2017, 9:31 #97742

    The access to games and surveillance is far better these days. A smallish terrace with ticket holders and set furthest away from away fans could be managed safely. People stand at gigs every night of the week without issue.

  21. mbg

    Feb 04, 2017, 0:18 #97741

    PaulWard, but can the away fans be relied upon to do it ? yes of course some of them can, but enough, yes just think tomorrow could be the day we've been waiting on, the day when history is made, when TOF is left with no choice but to fall on his sword, I wonder have the chavs especially their fans thought about that ? a chance to make history again, and cause wengers resignation (i'm sure a lot of fans and managers would love that honour) but you know something, and would it come as any surprise to anyone if he came up smelling of roses yet again. wenger out.

  22. GSPM

    Feb 03, 2017, 20:19 #97739

    Standing did not lead to the tragedy of hillsborough , police /stadium incompetence did along with fencing people in like animals. The mass all seater stadium hysteria is about sanitising football and turning fans into customers, something Arsenal excel at . Now we complaint about stadium atmosphere, so it's worth a try, safe standing could help to stop stadiums become like a library .

  23. Paulward

    Feb 03, 2017, 19:24 #97738

    I'm fine with safe standing myself, and miss the days of "unsafe standing " if I'm honest, the atmosphere has never really been the same since all seating came in, and is virtually non existent at Emirates these days. Meanwhile on the pitch I fully expect Chelsea to crush us tomorrow, and if that happens I would like to hear some loud anti Wenger chanting from the away end, it's important to put it out there that he needs to go ASAP, so once we lose to Bayern the pressure will become intolerable for him.

  24. mbg

    Feb 03, 2017, 18:36 #97735

    At the end of the day lads will/would a safe standing area, or areas, make any difference or have made any difference over the last nine years to the club in it's most important area, on the pitch, when we had/have this old has been in charge ? They probably would have got the blame and been used as excuses for all TOF's failures, priorities comes to mind. wenger out.

  25. Alsace

    Feb 03, 2017, 17:57 #97731

    Dear Ron, What I like about the "new" site is that it has ceased to be a slanging match. We will have to agree to disagree, but at least we can do so. I would stop people standing up. If we are talking abortion or drug use, then yes you have to confront reality and legalise it in a controlled way to prevent criminality. Standing up at the football isn't a compelling human need, although I do see the point in segregating those who do stand up to prevent them from inconveniencing others. You would have them in their own standing section and I would have them in the cells at Highbury Corner Mags. I'm very lucky. I sit in the upper tier near the front and people don't stand. If I go in my friends seats in the East lower you are up and down all match long. It's a PIA and they all hate it. Have a good weekend.

  26. Yes its Ron

    Feb 03, 2017, 16:41 #97729

    Alsace - pop over to Dortmund next time we play them and you ll see the type of new terrace. They're as boisterous as any fans in and outside the grounds. The perception of the Germans as you suggest has always been a bit of a myth. Ive seen the ones at CSKA too on the TV a while back. Equally good safe standing. It ll be introduced here in a few years.Make no mistake. Yr right on the costings. It ll never be cheap again. Is anything? Those who support safe standing are not all brain dead hoodies. Those seats in football stadia go largely unused in massive areas of grounds yet we re not seeing any hooliganism in grounds are we? It was always outside of grounds and theres still a bit of that at certain stadiums. You ll know that if you do the away grounds at all. Plus - Some of the obese who go to stadiums would do themselves a power of good by getting off their lard arses and moving their legs!.

  27. Alsace

    Feb 03, 2017, 15:42 #97727

    Dear Chaps. Thanks for the replies. I too long for the days when we would turn up and get in for £1.50 with 30p for a programme. They were lovely days and even when (rarely) the terraces were packed we were never in any real danger because the club protected us (no fences) and we could get out onto the pitch. But overall terraces were and are dangerous. A few points. (1) Yes the fences were what killed people but open terraces allowed them to be crushed against the fences (2)The Germans are an obedient people, fond of drill and compliance, not like us. (3) Putting more barriers up per row of terrace as a means of making standing safe pre-supposes that it's sensible to stand for 2 hours anyway when you can sit. (4) Cheap admission to our club will never return. The suits won't let us have decent grub at the ground so keen are they to screw the caterers. They won't allow material cheapness. Sadly the democracy of the game has gone. It need not have done. It was destroyed by people who couldn't behave properly, and for the avoidance of doubt I mean people who pushed, who came to the game drunk or who were negligent in not organising the venue or policing it properly. Terracing made the football spectators life cheap to the powers that be. Lord Taylor understood practicalities well. It was he who said that the best deterrent to a criminal is not the severity of the possible sentence but the certainty of getting caught. He prescribed seats because it was the best way of policing not only the supporters but the administrators and the Police as well. It was simply the best way to ensure people not getting killed. This is the practical logic underlying my position.

  28. mbg

    Feb 03, 2017, 15:30 #97726

    I thought this was for safe standing areas, has the word area/areas been dropped now, where would it all end ? when there's standing all over/around the ground ? we have it here now so lets get it over there now etc, Personally i'm one of those number who prefer to sit so it won't be getting my support, maybe it's my age I don't know, but that's my opinion. And i'd be able to get back to the ground again and do just that, and it would certainly have my support in that, if the AST would concentrate and put as much of it's energy into more important areas and more important matters like helping to get rid of a past it old embarrassment of a manager and help restore our club to it's former glory being respected, feared, winners again, and then I'd bet fans wouldn't care if they sat, stood, fell or lay down.

  29. Yes its Ron

    Feb 03, 2017, 15:11 #97725

    The new terraces would be good. They work fine in Germany. I've seen quite a few fans go over the backs of seats. Its matters not to me now tho in fairness as i rarely go to games. The atmosphere would improve though, im sure. Hillsboro occurred due to crushing, not terraces. The effect of the same thing happening again, heaven forbid with seats in place is horrifying. You only have to see how so few use the seats to justify trying a terrace again. A modern terrace wouldn't resurrect the bad only crash barrier days. Society has changed so much too.

  30. Bob Bayliss

    Feb 03, 2017, 14:26 #97720

    Oh my, Alsace, I don't know where to start. To blame standing for what happened at Hillsborough is every bit as misguided as The Sun's original attempts to say that it was the fault of drunken scousers. Terraces didn't cause anyone to die - the fences in front of them did. Sadly, those who had wanted for some time to socially engineer football in order to bring in a wealthier type of customer saw an opportunity to ride on a wave of public emotion and push the Taylor report through, with its misguided recommendation to abolish terraces. Among those who eagerly jumped on the bandwagon was our own David Dein who wasted no time in proposing a Bond Scheme to replace the North Bank at Highbury which did not have any death-trap fencing in front. Many of our loyalist and most traditional followers could not afford the cost of the Bond, others did not want to take out a loan to sit in a stand which marked the beginning of the end of Arsenal as we knew it. Please don't insult thousands of loyal fans by calling them luddites. Terraces are just one part of the experience which many of us miss. Restoring them would not necessarily bring us back into the fold immediately, but it would undoubtedly be a step in the right direction in terms of making traditional supporters feel a sense of identity with the game and in particular with our club.

  31. Gunner Rob

    Feb 03, 2017, 14:19 #97719

    I would have liked safe standing to have been in place on Tuesday evening. I actually felt quite unsafe in all the slippery conditions around the seats. I think some people struggle to understand the difference between the traditional terraces of the past ie Hillsbrough and the safe standing areas that could be introduced in the future. Technology and improvements in stadium design have moved on massively in recent years.

  32. Alsace

    Feb 03, 2017, 13:52 #97717

    It's very simple. If you stand up after you have been requested to sit down you are ejected from the ground by the Police as a public order issue. If you do it again you forfeit your season ticket and debenture and your ability to buy away tickets. I would prosecute as well. People DIED at Hillsborough. I really don't care about the people who want to stand save that they belong in a home for the grossly irresponsible. There is a reason for the rules and they should be enforced. I shall be writing to the Club suggesting that the disqualification of season ticket holders will increase their revenue stream, as they can fill the places again! It's the one area of the game where gentrification is not a P.I.A. In order to try and prove my point, we have two guarantees of safety at Arsenal - (1) the public order measures put in place by Mr Friar over decades and (2) that when we do get in a crushed situation eg going round the corner from Drayton Park into Gillespie Road after a game, nobody pushes because by and large AFC supporters do not have SH1t for brains. Why on earth would we want anything which diminishes safety because of the wishes of a small minority to stand ? We don't have people working with asbestos or going down the mines any more. Why on earth would we take a step backwards. Enforce seating and enjoy the game.