Never Mind the B******s!

Mobile filming equipment and YouTube are the equivalent of the 1980s Xerox machine for football fans’ opinion in 2017



Never Mind the B******s!

Claude and Ty – more Rik & Ade from ‘Bottom’ than Frost & Nixon?


Ed’s note. To put this article into some context, for those not yet aware, the print version of The Gooner will reach its 30th anniversary this autumn, and publish its final edition at the end of the 2017-18 season.

The Gooner, as you well may know, started life as a printed fanzine way back in the late 1980s at a time when such publications gave a platform to the ordinary football fan’s opinions which otherwise would never have got themselves heard within the traditional mainstream media which existed at the time. The idea of course was not exclusively one which emanated from football fans and, in fact, had been something of a time lag from events in the world of popular music and in particular the punk fanzines of a decade prior.

Technological progress by the 1970s had effectively made the punk ‘DIY’ phenomenon happen – the development of the Xerox photocopier aided the creation of fanzine publications like ’Sniffing Glue’. There was also the ability to record at low cost, like with the Buzzcocks’ independently produced ‘Spiral Scratch’ EP which became something of a pathfinder for other bands, as well as Rough Trade Records being able to develop a form of record distribution across the whole of the UK, which was wholly independent from the major corporations.

By late 1979 however, this alternative form of expression looked so easy that, after the first wave broke through, even idiots thought they could get in on the act. In Lech Kowalski’s famed Punk documentary ‘D.O.A. – A Right of Passage’, the Polish-American film maker on arriving at Heathrow Airport allegedly asked a cabbie to take him to the Kings Road to allow him to view first-hand the hub of London’s Punk universe. The Cabbie apparently misheard him and took him to Kingshold – a rundown estate in Hackney where the only Punks that Kowalski came across were a p**s poor pub band by the name of ‘Terry & the Idiots’.

Throughout the film, the band’s lead singer, Terry Sylvester, comes across as something of a prototype for the archetypal twenty first century Reality TV star. His delusions as to his ‘star quality’ are somewhat manipulated by the film maker and ultimately, Terry Sylvester achieves the attention he’s long craved for all the wrong reasons. Terry however, was something of the arse end of the downward trajectory of Punk’s ‘DIY’ ethos by this point. Punk’s initial wave of energy and excitement had worn off by late 1979 and what was developing in the void which emerged was ‘Oi’ music. Around a decade back, I can remember sharing on an internet Music Forum this piece written by the infamous former Sun Columnist Garry Bushell on the ‘Story of Oi’.

One of the forum members picked up on this particular quote from Bushell, claiming that: ‘Oi was a real voice from the backstreets, a mega phone for dead end yobs’ and quite rightly responded with this retort: ‘why the f*** would you want to give a dead end yob a megaphone?’ What therefore, should self-proclaimed amateur social historians like me and you make of this period of social history? Do we ultimately look back on the like of Terry Sylvester or the more established and successful ‘Oi!’ groups of the period like the Cockney Rejects and conclude that back in the late seventies and early eighties, everything must have been alright with the ‘ancien regime’ merely due to the fact that by this point, much of the angry dissenting voices from ‘the streets’ who were publically handed the microphone to kick against it, happened to have mostly been the voices of inarticulate idiots?

It’s with this in mind that I turn to the recent media comments of both Gary Neville and Oliver Holt regarding fan opposition to Arsene Wenger’s own ‘ancien regime’. One of the best responses to this came from within these pages from a contributor called ‘Markymark’ (surely not he whose brother was in New Kids on the Block, who later played Dirk Diggler in the film ‘Boogie Nights’?). Marky rightly stated that: ‘my childhood memory reflects back to a time when an idiot fan was someone involved in smashing up a Service Station on the M6. Not a young guy with an opinion. Our definition of idiot appears to have narrowed and become far less tolerant’. He’s entirely right. There’s absolutely nothing idiotic about this bloke’s banner at all. Whether you agree with it or not, there’s nothing inflammatory about it and the content is polite enough for family viewing.

Nothing about the banner is self-evidently feeble-minded. Gary Neville was a part of the most successful trophy winning outfit of recent times at Old Trafford – would he or his boss have accepted a decade without having made a credible challenge for either the Premiership or the Champions League, on the basis that ‘just enough’ was done year in, year out to keep within the top four? Oliver Holt reaffirmed Gary Neville’s words in a piece for the Daily Mail, mainly on the basis that Arsene Wenger has done great things in the past. Of course, you could have said the same thing for Paul McCartney back in 1977, but it didn’t make Wings ‘the band the Beatles could have been’ by any stretch of the imagination. Oddly enough, Oliver Holt also holds a fan ‘dual citizenship’ between Old Trafford and Stockport’s Edgeley Park.

From this pair of Manc Reds therefore, you can clearly come to the conclusion that where Chelsea fans belting out ‘Arsene Wenger – we want you to stay’ is heavily steeped in sarcasm, Man United fans singing his praises in contrast are mainly being disingenuous as over the years they’ve come to warm to a man whose sides generally put up much less of a fight at Old Trafford these days, compared to what they used to do to around fifteen to twenty years ago. The unfortunate thing however, is that establishment voices like Holt and Neville - who continually pat Arsene Wenger on the back despite his underachievement in recent seasons - have to some extent successfully managed to conflate reasonable protest for Wenger’s exit (like the man with the banner at Stamford Bridge) with others that have generally been a lot more idiotic and much less sober in their general approach on the matter.

Neville of course has specifically fingered Arsenal Fan TV for criticism on this front and – in all fairness to G. Nev – you can’t exactly say it’s entirely without reasonable grounds. Before laying into AFTV, I have to give credit where it’s due to its founder and front man Robbie Lyle for coming up with what is a fairly original social media idea, which a media giant in Freemantle (parent group of both former ITV company Thames and Neighbours creator Reg Grundy Productions) have actually gone out of their way to replicate with other clubs such as Man United and Chelsea. AFTV’s punk credentials had also too been furthered with an interview with Arsenal fan John Lydon himself back in September 2015.

That said, I don’t seriously think AFTV has done much at all to elevate the level of debate on the Wenger question and discussion on Arsenal future direction in general, compared to what’s already out there in the rest of cyberspace. When you watch the Ty v Claude ‘debates’, Claude’s challenging of Ty’s Wenger delusions is hardly Football’s equivalent of David Frost interrogating Richard Nixon. When the pair go at it, it’s more akin to watching a slapstick fight scene between Rik Mayall and Ade Edmondson from the nineties sitcom ‘Bottom’. Among the other regulars, ‘Troopz’ often comes across with all the surliness of an angry pupil from a secondary school remedial class. The tragic thing is, here in his summary on Arsenal’s capitulation at Bayern, he’s actually in the right. Sadly the wheat of his argument gets heavily buried among the chaff with his angry and repetitive ‘fams’ and ‘bluds’.

I don’t doubt that the AFTV commenters are passionate Arsenal fans, but sadly, most of what you see on AFTV seems to be selected crimes of passion for the YouTube generation and many of its detractors have often derided it as merely being ‘car crash’ style click-bait. You see, the trouble with people voicing opinions in cyberspace, is that it’s very much a saturated market place. There’s a lot of talk these days about social media displacing the influence of the mega media corporations, which is wholly misleading because your average social media poster doesn’t get viewed by that many people off the back of their own steam.

The comparison between the new social media voices and those within the older more established forms of media is very much like that of a man on a soap box at speaker’s corner competing for the public’s attention against a man next to him on a podium with a jumbotron screen. The man on the soap box has got to do something pretty wild to get the public’s attention when he’s up against competition like this and his best hope is to perform with the greatest degree of outlandishness. This isn’t just the case with opinions on football, but pretty much anything these days, hence the rise of ‘fake news’ sites etc.

Robbie once explained the point behind AFTV in an interview with the Guardian, stating: ‘quite simply our aim is to give fans a voice… when I started it off you would never ever hear from fans. You’d hear from pundits, ex-players, you guys in the media. You’d never hear from the guys who spend their hard-earned money, emotions and time going to see games’. This comment I’m afraid is a bit disingenuous and self-aggrandizing on his part, as for the last twenty five years at least – following on in the footsteps of fanzines such as this one – the ‘average man on the street’ has had 606, Talksport and endless internet chat forums as a platform for his views on Football.

Personally, my view is that the best place to hear what the ordinary bloke down the pub thinks on Football is generally… well… down the pub. I can only assume that with the rapid disappearance of many local watering holes over the last decade or so, the pub bore and those who for various reasons wish to hear what he has to say for himself (they are usually a ‘him’ and not a ‘her’, I generally find) have all migrated to YouTube and cyberspace. Of course, the internet, mobile filming equipment and platforms such as YouTube have all made things like AFTV possible. Much like how the Xerox machine made the fanzine possible back in the 70s/80s. On the back of this, there’s generally a view that seems to be developing that the internet forums, blogs, vlogs and what have you, may possibly be making printed Fanzines like The Gooner obsolete. Personally, I beg to differ.

If ‘The Gooner’ has a raison d’etre in the late 2010s, it’s to be an entity distant from the establishment backslappers like Oliver Holt and Gary Neville, while being better able to articulate the general mood and opinion than the likes of Ty, Claude et al have managed to do on AFTV in recent years. In football, as in life, democracy of opinion and pluralism are more than welcome, but surely the world can have no place for the pernicious effect of ranting and those who rant (and believe me, in cyberspace there’s been no shortage of that, on any given topic!). In 2017, Punk football analysis isn’t dead. Though please, let’s kill any idea that ‘Oi!’ punditry actually has any merit.

*Follow me on Twitter@robert_exley


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43
comments

  1. jeff wright

    Feb 27, 2017, 16:25 #98763

    I have a suspicion AKB that all of this Trump business will all end very tamely it's a mainly American thing anyway and we have enough of our own problems to concern ourselves with . Trump who lacks communication skills as does Corbo have both discovered that it is one thing protesting in opposition and making claims about this or that happening if given power and another thing actually doing them .When the steel works and other industries fail to remerge in America as Trump promised the yanks that it will then he will be in trouble. Economic success and producing it is much tougher than spouting rhetoric is.

  2. Time for change

    Feb 27, 2017, 14:42 #98753

    Or maybe it's the fact that people prefer reading people's opinion for free on the Internet rather than paying for print.

  3. jeff wright

    Feb 27, 2017, 13:19 #98738

    Had a busy weekend so no time to reply but just like to point out that I don't read The Daily Mail and have never bought a copy of it in my life.AKB though is obviously an avid reader of it ! Also dear jj pointing out the reasons why so many former Labour voters supported Brexit doesn't make someone a racist .Incidentally old chap many of the immigrants from Eastern Europe come from countries where racial intolerance has been endemic for centuries particularly anti-semitism . I think that economic and social reasons doctors surgeries becoming harder to access ,schools and hospital waiting lists and in some cases the behaviour of certain immigrants,they are not all all saints with halos floating over their heads, caused the backlash against uncontrolled immigration .This no control on borders is stupid anyway because it allows in other types than those seeking work or sanctuary such as the Latvian who raped and murdered a 14 year old girl in London.This nutter had just been released from prison in his own country for murdering his wife. A points system similar to the one the Aussies run would be a better idea than Blair's nonsense that is currently in place. The Hollywood luvvies were rather disappointing I was expecting some real heavy Trumpo bashing from them all rather yawn inducing really with just stock luvvies self admiration society type speeches talking one another up.

  4. mbg

    Feb 25, 2017, 22:10 #98713

    jj, nice one, funny how others mostly AKB's who don't agree with what some post on here ( usually about their messiah)and the fact they spend a lot of time on here they think they don't know where the emirates is (notice he used emirates not Highbury, tells you a lot) if only they knew the truth. wenger out.

  5. jjetplane

    Feb 25, 2017, 15:27 #98704

    AKB I was forgetting the little hooker on the prarie link but all is completed with the unfairly treated Farage who has a thing going with the also unfairly treated Trump, throwing in the unfairly treated Arsenal FC and we have a post etonian/fascist quandry of sorts. See Fabregas like Nasri is playing the football of his life. The thing is whether Nasri's current boss would want Sanchez on his bench? Small clubs with big bank accounts.

  6. mbg

    Feb 25, 2017, 14:32 #98702

    Was I a mates man cave last night (garden shed)where he has a bar TV and all the comforts of home and of course a rerun of our greatest achievement was played, Sutton, and it just struck me how disinterested the Arsenal fans were even at the goals a handful getting moist here and there (we know who they are)some clapping and applauding, some even laughing, others just standing there not bothered either way, some not caring while TOF danced/hoped about like an indian rain maker with two rattles in his hands, with his totem pole beside him. Sad Embarrassing times. We want wenger out.

  7. Arseneknewbest

    Feb 25, 2017, 14:30 #98701

    JJet - Jeff's comic of choice the Daily Heil has a different set of problems with the orange one. His missus is suing them for a cool $150 million over a "story" in which they allege (look at me using the word "allege") she was on the game. As Jeff ought to say, you can make it up (or not). One of those rare times that I'd like the trumpingtons to win something - it'd put the willies up Rothermere and his tax-evading ways. And Jeff would turn into a tree-hugging socialist and not a blood drinking fascist snowflake if the DM cased to exist. Now that's a powerful image....

  8. jjetplane

    Feb 25, 2017, 13:44 #98700

    Trump has banned the Daily Mail along wit the BBC from that white house. Is the Mail officially a leftie rag now? lol! Right - back to the Guardian which is the most user friendly paper on line. Funny enough, the Islington Gazzette is too and it won't be long before they are banned from the EMs .... Donald Wenger.

  9. KC38

    Feb 25, 2017, 13:30 #98699

    We all believe we are real supporters, just like we believe in our own self importance, posters on here calling fans that attend games plastic now that's ironic!

  10. Arseneknewbest

    Feb 25, 2017, 13:11 #98698

    Hi Tony, Farage is no longer the leader of UKIPs (and hasn't been for many months) so the fact that he still pops up with his anti-immigrant diatribe quite often on the beeb is all the more vomit-inducing. It may be that the UKIPs organ grinders prefer Farage (who was kicked out of public school for being a white supremacist) to the other paid monkey. A chacun son gout but they both bring a taste of sick to my throat. Exeter's characterisation of Nige is impeccable.

  11. jjetplane

    Feb 25, 2017, 13:03 #98697

    Hilarious getting some poster's number on here. Fair enough hating everything about the present AFC set up but then displaying the obvious that you are an intolerant right winger (always denied) is well par for the course. Just glad I have never spent a day in my life hating people just because they come from somewhere else or have a different skin colour. ps Wenger and Farage about on the same level of opportunism though they may employ a different culture value system. Nice to see Nasri playing so well in Spain. A class above Ozil perhaps. To the poster who thinks some people do not know where the Ems is 'my local used to be up the road as was my primary and secondary school so obv. was born in spitting distance and used to attend Highbury from the 60s...' Next!

  12. Bard

    Feb 25, 2017, 12:54 #98696

    Only on this site can you segue seamlessly between Wenger out arguments to discussion of the political bias at the BBC, brilliant.

  13. Arseneknewbest

    Feb 25, 2017, 12:53 #98695

    Jeff - I was 25 miles away from home this morning coaching Arseneknewbest junior's under 12 team and I could still hear the coffin lid creaking open to grace us with your darling thoughts about politics. You will see that in my exchange with Tony and MFU, there was no rancour whatsoever. We essentially agreed to disagree and you pop out of cryogenic suspension with your oh-so-extreme cowardly world view. Everyone's against you Jeff, including me. Now have a cup of horlicks and get back in your box before that 666 tattoo starts a-twitchin' and the smell of sulphur becomes over-powering.

  14. Exeter Gunner

    Feb 25, 2017, 12:30 #98694

    jeff wright, the man who swallowed the Daily Mail whole and continues to regurgitate it in stages. Increasingly unfashionable though they are, there still things like reality and facts. But people are determined to believe what they want to believe despite the evidence. The prejudice of the likes of Trump and Farage chime with their own prejudice and they look no further.

  15. jeff wright

    Feb 25, 2017, 12:07 #98693

    Oh dear here we go again ! AKB is at it portraying the BBC as being a right wing Tory establishment media propaganda outfit with the Daily Mail the Tory version of Dr Goebbels Third Reich Nazi newspaper the Völkischer Beobachter! It seems fairly obvious to most that the bloated BBC who for years employed a gang of secret KGB Stalinist type under cover agents to track down and even imprison those who did not pay for a TV licence , knocking on peoples doors at all hours demanding entry to their homes , is very lefty liberal .Some progress to lighten the bias has been attempted with non-liberal lefty types being employed but overall the weight of political bias still clearly remains in the left wing camp. Question Time on Thursday nights is a prime example of the way in which the Beeb tries to influence the views of viewers with carefully selected and phrased questions and a safe panel who know what limits are in place regarding their replies.The audiences are always mainly left wing louts and luvvies who loudly respond to any points made by the left lib panelists by joining in the merriment when any sarcastic comments or sneers are made about comments from the non left on the panel. On a football note it is a sad but true reflection on Wengo's AFC being irrelevant by not playing today. Southampton have other things to do at the weekend while Chelsea have an opportunity to increase their lead at the top of the table even further over us . It all looks a bit grim really for old Wengo with the FA Cup and his top 4 trophy being all that he has left to play for and we are not even past Easter yet. You couldn't make it up.

  16. Exeter Gunner

    Feb 25, 2017, 11:49 #98692

    Farage is a chancer, an opportunist, a parasite on the disaffected and disenfranchised, deliberately misguiding and misinforming, cynically pandering to and stoking up prejudice for his own selfish ends. Surprised again to find that posters who can see through Wenger's BS can't also see through the more malevolent BS that's in the political arena.

  17. CORNISH GOONER

    Feb 25, 2017, 11:06 #98691

    AKB, I like the cut of your jib!! I really don't understand why I still support L'Arse these days because the Corporation stands for most things that I despise (my patient wife really hopes I will give up my obsession). Opium of the masses perhaps?

  18. TonyEvans

    Feb 25, 2017, 8:48 #98690

    AKB - obviously I do disagree. I just want to see any political leader (whether I agree with their politics or not) given unbiased treatment from the media and I stick with what I said that with Nigel Farage that was certainly not the case, especially by the BBC. Also you can't criticise him for wanting media attention - they all do to try and get their message across, which they should be able to do without having to deal with a biased interviewer.

  19. Arseneknewbest

    Feb 25, 2017, 8:15 #98689

    Tony - Farage isn't forced at the point of a gun to do interviews with the BBC. He follows the press around like a shrivelled porn star eager to stay in front of a camera. He's even popped up in the US at some rightwing nutjob conference to opine about Stoke (the election. not the team) and has threatened to return - again - to british politics. Like me, you probably just wish he'd join wengo and f*ck off. He gets much more air time than other parties (despite never having been elected for office in Britain) and the dear old beeb are stoking the fire of hatred that he's spreading. Farage = Trump = Le Pen = Wilders. Just like the 1930s no? Blame the poor; the non-white people; underpaid workers and any other less privileged groups as long as it's not the rich (who Farage so sycophantically serves). And UKIPs have the sheer chutzpah to call others elitist! And don't get me started on that lying loon Nuttalls. The BBC is actively feeding this narrative for ratings and because of it's allegiance to the right. You'll doubtless disagree with that - which means we must be living in different worlds.

  20. TonyEvans

    Feb 25, 2017, 7:16 #98688

    Hi AKB - The BBC certainly gave UKIP plenty of airtime but that was only because they wanted every opportunity they could to rip them to shreds. I never once saw Nigel Farage given a fair interview and the anti UKIP BBC agenda made me sick.

  21. Exeter Gunner

    Feb 24, 2017, 23:36 #98687

    In a world in which 8 men hold as much wealth as the bottom 50% of the world's population and blatantly very right wing governments predominate across western civilisation, it takes a certain type of angry,frightened white male privilege - threatened by anyone who doesn't look and sound like them - to believe that 'lefties' are the source of the world's ills.

  22. David1

    Feb 24, 2017, 22:49 #98686

    Minor correction: schools don't have remedial classes any more; they're called inclusion units. Same shizzle, different name. Full of Peter Storeys.

  23. KC38

    Feb 24, 2017, 20:41 #98685

    Ron, Agree we never really know the full story. That said many pundits do not feel the real pain of a real supporter. I remember Ferguson coming out in defence of the then Blackburn manager Keane (Scottish pals) telling the fans to lay off him, but it's not ferguson who has to buy a season ticket and watch an under qualified manager takes them down. Debate is great as is opinion, sadly the insult and childish comments on here no doubt from many who do not know where the emirates is, is stomach churning. This should be a site for good debate, wenger in wenger out, respect his achievements, become arrogant, lost the plot etc etc but so many just use sad acronyms and repeat the same boring slogans.

  24. Arseneknewbest

    Feb 24, 2017, 20:14 #98684

    Hi Tony - I was going by well versed dictionary definitions for those terms. I disagree about immigration and the BBC - they give an inordinate amount of airtime to the UKIPs which is an anti-immigration party. Much more than the greens for example and the tory-lite lib dems who are a favourite of the no longer left-leaning Guardian. I don't hear much from the BBC about the economic and cultural positives of immigration because editors are running scared these days. As Billy Bragg memorably said, "when you wake up to the fact that your paper (or TV channel - my words) is Tory, just remember there are two sides to every story. The BBC is about as socialist as our friend wengo - they both talk a good game but they're full of sh*t.

  25. TonyEvans

    Feb 24, 2017, 18:36 #98681

    AKB - I suppose it depends on your definition of left / right wing and it could be argued both ways. As far as social matters are concerned,eg things like immigration the BBC is certainly left wing, especially when compared with some of the newspapers. The jury is still out for me as far as politics is concerned which is where our opinions differ.

  26. Cyril

    Feb 24, 2017, 17:29 #98679

    JL,now he speaks the truth. There is a good you tube piece on him talking about the Emirates stadium and the past. He spoke about rats running up and down the place at the old ashburton. That's right ask as I used to work there and they moved is to build the stadium. But of course, the rats are still there!

  27. Arseneknewbest

    Feb 24, 2017, 16:52 #98677

    JJet - Nice one. Just read that thing about spencer and Depeche Mode (Basildon's finest!). All comes back to Bushell and the Oi thing. Grim times indeed. But Dave Gaham as Goebbels? Nah, I ain't buying it. If they're not in the kitchen, they're usually loving a man in a uniform...

  28. MAF

    Feb 24, 2017, 16:51 #98676

    ARSENAL FINANCES (1/2 year to Nov 30, 2016) >Turnover: £191.9m (up from £158m). >Player sales profit: £6.3 million. >Cash balance: £123.7 m

  29. Arseneknewbest

    Feb 24, 2017, 16:26 #98675

    MFU - cheers. On a side issue, am I the only one to think he has posted something on here only to lose it in the ether because I wasn't signed on properly...Some names there to conjure with. Marr can call himself what he wants (Paxman accurately described himself as a one nation Tory on the other hand) but he shows incredible bias towards the right. He's also a complete hypocrite - the journo who took out a super-injunction to stop the press revealing that he was playing away. What a guy! No credibility and no balance. Rather than what he calls himself, I think a more accurate barometer is the content of his awful show. Harman (lol) and Abbott both sent their kids to fee paying schools so there's a tendency among both not to walk the walk. Toynbee is left of centre agreed, but she's a sunday morning sofa warmer and a token leftie to salve consciences. Characters like Sopel, Mardell and Eddie Mair (R4) ARE all good, balanced journos who I sense recognise the BBC's erstwhile tradition of at least attempting to look for balance. They're trying to position themselves in the middle of the scale but the fact remains that Marr and brillo-headed Neill and those other scumbags are heavyweights on the right. I honestly cannot think of a single recognisable leftie who has gravitas and their own news show on the BBC.

  30. Yes its Ron

    Feb 24, 2017, 16:05 #98674

    Meant to say too, that none of us should feel bad about talking rot about football 90 per cent of the time given that Phillipa Gregory talks rot and gets paid for writing book about her misinformed rot and has the BBC wanting to pay her for going on the tele and talking factually erroneous rot. Rot rules supreme especially in this day of social media where rot becomes 'fact' instantaneously.

  31. jjetplane

    Feb 24, 2017, 16:01 #98673

    Ha ha! Just see the alt right (fascist nazis) claiming Depeche Mode! (must be the leather...) as their swansondsters and the neo cons desribing nazi Spencer (see gob punch) as a left wing fascist! I guess the more right wing little England Ulip you are even the tories are lefty scum. Speaking as a plastic anarchist I think Women's hour should stick to talking about men and of course the woman's role in the kitchen Gang of 4 'it's her factory/it's her duty Politics in here are as funny as the serious football talk And RON is right - it's a ****ing game! **** Wenger! ps I remember those far flung days of getting the Gooner before a matchh at the proper Arsenal ground. I guess at the Ems it's all pizza and related flyersall org. sourced (of which I am a fan) .... Up the lefties!

  32. Arseneknewbest

    Feb 24, 2017, 16:00 #98672

    OK Tony fair enough. But I'm genuinely intrigued to know who (or what) you think is left wing about the BBC. A lot of media observers think it has shifted steadily to the right and that fairness is not even aimed at, much less delivered.

  33. TonyEvans

    Feb 24, 2017, 15:56 #98671

    AKB - We will have to agree to disagree about the BBC. At least we can agree about Wenger and yes The awful Daily Mail.

  34. The Man From UNCLE

    Feb 24, 2017, 15:44 #98670

    ArseneKnowsBest: I counter with Andrew Marr (quoted himself as the BBC has an "innate liberal bias"), Ian Katz (Newsnight editor ex Guardian), his sidekick Emily Maitless, Polly Toynbee, Mark Easton, Jon Sopel, Mark Mardell, Victoria Derbyshire (AKA SJW number one), Radio 4 Womens Hour with its relentless feminist agenda. All soggy left of centre contributors. Regularly invited guests: anyone who writes for the Guardian, Harriet Harman, Diane Abbott, convicted criminal and Liberal denier Vicki Pryce. Recent pieces on what jolly good chaps Fidel Castro and Martin McGuinness were; documentary on Mark Duggan and how he was just a misunderstood decent chap who didn't get his medication really. That's just the start, do you want me to go on?

  35. Redshirtwhitesleeves

    Feb 24, 2017, 15:35 #98669

    Sad to hear the Gooner in print form coming to an end. A regular part of my match day used to be coming out of Finsbury Park station, across into st.thomas road and picking up my copy. We were quite spoilt for choice at Arsenal with 1 nil down, Highbury high, the Arsenal echo, up the arse etc which were all good reads in their own way. Quite looking forward to a 'free' weekend without getting wound up by Wenger and his pussy brigade. F*** me football sure ain't what it used to be

  36. Arseneknewbest

    Feb 24, 2017, 15:21 #98668

    Tony - The BBC? Left wing? Really? Spot the leftie amongst this line up the BBC's news "talent". Andrew Marr, Andrew Neill, Laura Kuenssberg, Nick Robinson, David Dimbleby. That's right - Got it? Yeah right it''s none of them - they're all tory establishment mouthpieces who are in a self-serving jerk circle with the right wing press. You're going to tell us next that the Mail and the Express are dangerous leftie rags. If you think the BBC is left wing, name me anyone involved in politics who is left of centre. Even Peston, apparent gooner and devotee of free market economics has fooked off to the even more right wing ITV. I grant you it may have been a bit more balanced in the 90s and 80s but that was then....the only remotely balanced news coverage these days on the box is to be had on channel 4. If you're still in two minds, try watching the BBC's coverage on Sunday morning. It's full of rightwing luvvies as you like to call them deciding how to control the rest of us. Describing the modern BBC as left wing is akin to describing wengo as a football manager...

  37. The Man From UNCLE

    Feb 24, 2017, 15:00 #98667

    Regarding the two-bit celebs who seem to think that they have some kind of platform to preach to the great unwashed (hi Gary Lineker! hi Meryl! hi Katy Perry!) I always recall Slash from Guns & Roses, being asked about Nelson Mandela being released. "Personally I think it's great", he replied "but what does it matter what I think? I'm just a f****ng guitar player." Top class.

  38. Yes its Ron

    Feb 24, 2017, 14:57 #98666

    Frankly, us football fans generally talk rubbish and i mean all of us. We know nothing about what really goes on at Clubs or what players are really like. All of us are to an extent led by the media and all of us are less than objective, as we re all caught up with the emotion of the game and feelings for the Clubs we support. Winning games is the only option for many, many want instant gratification and instant glory so they can 'one up ' it vis other Clubs fans. There is envy of other Clubs and players and envy of other Clubs cash reserves and many of us think the same resources should just be conjured up from thin air. In fact, theres more biased ****e spoken about football than any other subject really. We are all equally as guilty of spouting it but hey .... its fun isnt it! In todays media and Sky driven era, football is taken far too seriously and the discourse about it takes on a dour, sombre tone when really it shouldnt. Fanzines , media, all of us, other Clubs fans basically know f--k all about the professional game but hell, we love to portray the image that we do dont we.

  39. TonyEvans

    Feb 24, 2017, 14:17 #98663

    An interesting read, Robert. As in most walks of life the average 'man in the street' is part of the silent majority that rarely gets heard. Political and sporting opinions that I seldom agree with are rammed down our throats by the fawning, left wing BBC, with the most appalling usually emanating from two-bit celebrity luvvies or idiotic pundits, full of self-interest. Wenger's reign of mediocrity since 2006 has been given the kiss of life on so many occasions because ex players feel some sort of mis-placed loyalty, with Martin Keown the latest to come out with utter nonsense. Rant over!

  40. mbg

    Feb 24, 2017, 13:27 #98662

    Chief wengerite ty and all his gear, I wonder why he needs headphones during a match, they say he wears Arsenal socks and Y fronts too, apparently he even uses wenger condoms, grey ones like his sleeping bag with his head sticking out of the top. wenger out now.

  41. jjetplane

    Feb 24, 2017, 12:52 #98660

    Good stuff and I agree with most you say. Find that AFTV total ****e but then it is so Em related it really is dwarfed by the background. Funny when you go to the Rotten link AFTV is is tame and Claude to me has no gravitas about him. From that piece You tube takes you to Lydon talking about what a ****hole the Ems is and the total disasssociation between the houses across the road and the stadium (sic). That is a good piece and I remember Lydon wearing his scarf in school in the old days though he actually was a model pupil. I like the wallpaper of the radio as a medium and 5 live does enough for me and phone-ins feature a good cross section and sometimes it is great. As for the pundits some are ****ing dreadful (Savage) who are simply latter day panto villians and occasionally it clicks well like Jenas and Wrighty the other week were a good pairing. I have never had Sky because I do not like being taken over by a medium hence the radio. People put so much store by media when really you need to step outside of the box and see it for what it is. Kevin and yourself are excellent and the contrast is worlds away from the cult siege mentality on Untold which is hilarious and ultra ****ing embarrassing. AFTV is like the most amateur rapping and I am a fan of rap so do have an idea. Remember those Oi days though I was well on the leftfield and remember going to a Sham gig with a famous punk and hiding for most of the gig. This was of course after I had just watched Arsenal take a hiding from WBA and me and the 'special brew' man were on the back of the north bank trying to ignore my brother who wanted to kill everyone! Oh the days and the Ems is nowhere near it. As I have said watch 9th tier mainly now at 3 quid a throw and can honestly say it is better than your average sunday fayre dished up in neu Holloway - no wonder AFTV is frantic crap by default.

  42. Arseneknewbest

    Feb 24, 2017, 11:16 #98658

    Thanks Robert - a very interesting piece. I think there's a generational aspect to this. Those of us who grew up in the time when fanzines were widespread were also used to getting their news and opinions in written form from books, magazines and 'papers. I'm clearly not part of the new generation but there appears to me to be more emphasis on consuming news through the internet and to an ever diminishing extent the telly. The quest for information remains high among us all and I'm certainly not going to judge one over the other. The way in which we get our information is governed by the media companies rather than the users. The old Gil Scott Heron lyric, "When the producer names the tune, the consumer has a got to dance" is relevant here. So I think there's a bit of oneupmanship and elitism at play here. Holt and Neville are relatively old-stagers who perceive their way of gathering news and opinions and broadcasting them as intrinsically better because they're the ones that are doing it. On the other hand, they could be seem as the worst kind of sycophantic courtiers being constantly oh-so-careful not to bite the hand that feeds them. I've seen bits of AFTV and find it limited, but I also recognised that's because I'm a fifty something who enjoys reading, including a lot of the stuff on Gooner (which I have grown up with all these years). The quality of written thought is also inevitably much better because the writer has had time to think, compose and edit what he/she is saying. On the other hand, being "doorstepped" outside the emer****es possibly after a few pints an after seeing yet another substandard performance will reduce rather than enhance a fan's eloquence. There also must be hours of un-broadcastable stuff that they must necessarily edit. But were AFTV to spend lengthy periods of time editing and airbrushing the "punk" aspect, it would become as anodyne as the other extreme which is MoTD. So while I prefer the written medium for receiving and offering views about AFC, I'm absolutely tolerant of AFTV and what they try to achieve. Plus, in short bursts it can be very amusing and to some extent it's ours, i.e. it exists to cover a subject that's evidently dear to all of us.

  43. The Man From UNCLE

    Feb 24, 2017, 11:00 #98657

    I'd take exception to the passage "for the last twenty five years at least.......the ‘average man on the street’ has had 606, Talksport.....as a platform for his views". 606 and Talksport both screen calls so there isn't much chance of the ordinary punter getting on unless it agrees with the presenters agenda. Mind you "the voice of the fans" now has a distinctly middle-class tone to it - which of course is the demographic of the people who go to football (as opposed to the rest of us, watching on another platform). What is going on now is the same at the turn of the century with the internet taking on the music business. Suddenly the record companies lost control of it. They got it back eventually; the same will happen with politics, and football too. Ty and Claude are no doubt waiting for that phone call inviting them to join the big league.