Kevin Whitcher (in discussion with Graham Perry)
Over the summer, between June 10th and August 2nd, Graham Perry of Arsenal Circular and myself had an email exchange on the subject of whether Arsène Wenger was the best man to take Arsenal forward, after it was announced he would be managing the club for a further two seasons. It was initiated by me because I couldn’t see how anyone could think he was the best man for the job, and I wanted to try and understand the thinking behind someone who did. Graham has contributed to the onlinegooner website regularly in recent months, so seemed a good choice for this debate.
What follows is an exchange with 13 emails from us each, but over 6,000 words, so I will break it down into two parts, the second to follow tomorrow. Whichever side of the debate you are on, I hope what follows casts some light onto what’s going on in the minds of those that think differently from your own view…
Kevin Whitcher: In the period between 2006 and 2013, do you think Arsène overachieved by keeping Arsenal in the top four consistently?
Graham Perry: Let me put it this way – he did very well to keep us in top four while Arsenal were a selling club – the exact years I am not sure about. The purchase of Ozil was the sign that we had become a buying club again – Sanchez following.
KW: Granted, he consistently kept us in the top four - but I do not believe the achievement was as remarkable as some have painted. The reason being that, yes, although good players were sold, between 2006 and 2010 Arsenal had the third biggest net spend when transfers and wages were combined. Between 2010 and the present, they had the fourth biggest net spend. So between the stadium move and the arrival of Ozil, Arsène delivered pretty much what he should have been expected to as a minimum. Would you concur?
GP: I would like to see the list of Ins and Outs before I commit. Who left and when. Who arrived and when. I am sure there were good and bad buys and names do recur like a bad dream. Also would like to see top four with points for each of the seasons to measure the comparative positions. Need some numbers because they are relevant without our exchanges becoming just a numbers issue.
KW: It is a sheerly financial question. The names are not relevant to this discussion. I think it is well established that Arsenal's net spend (transfers and wages) were behind Manchester United's and Chelsea's at the time of the stadium move, but ahead of everyone else's (critically due to the much higher wage bill). When Manchester City joined the party, then Arsenal were pushed into fourth biggest spenders. I think this is well established fact. Are you under the impression that Liverpool and/or Tottenham were spending more? Even now, the disparity in wages paid remains. The 'top four' so to speak, are well clear. Do you believe otherwise for the period between 2006-13? My argument is there is an accepted correlation between outlay on combined transfers and wages and finishing position, meaning finishing in 3rd or 4th place would be what should be expected. I am trying to bust the myth that Arsène achieved some kind of miracle on a shoestring by keeping Arsenal in the Champions League in the first seven seasons at the new stadium.
GP: I take your point and it is part of my narrative that a top four place when we were a selling club was a great achievement. Again you know the facts better than me and I do not use that as a get out. Two points:
1. the "spend" issue is important so facts are relevant. My view is that we had to sell Crown Jewels either because we needed the funding or- and this is more likely- other clubs offered our players more money and better terms
2. I may attach more importance than you to the actual achievement of getting a top four position year after year. We were never mid table, never in relegation fight. Also consider the clubs who achieved less, who aspired to top four but had patchy record.
Also need to see if it was just a matter of scraping into fourth place year after year.
Also the success in keeping squad motivated and achieving whilst suffering the dampener of seeing top players sold
KW: 2007-08 was a season in which Arsenal should have won the Premier League and gone further than the last eight in Europe. In terms of the points gap between Arsenal and the league winners, Arsène has never got as close again. Do you see any evidence that he actually learned anything about how to get the best out of his side after the experience of that season? Unfortunately, for me, I think it has been downhill ever since, certainly in terms of the team's ability to compete for the title over the course of a complete campaign.
GP: I appreciate that you see things as downhill since 2007/8. For me it is not a linear descent into failure and non-achievement. When you say “downhill” we need to keep things in perspective. “Downhill” suggests mid-table even relegation but that has never ben the case. I concede we have not challenged for the League or CL and that is a negative but wining three FA Cups and beating big teams en route is significant. And again far from mid-table – always in the top four until last season when we fell short by just one point.
Are you over emphasising failure or am I over emphasising success? You pay your money – you make your choice. For me it is not so much looking back but whether there is justification for a belief that this season we can challenge and that is where we disagree. I am optimistic – you are pessimistic.
I attach importance to the change to three at the back – nine wins out of ten cannot be dismissed as end of season frolics. Holding has come through and I believe signings will come. There is another point – if we are that close I prefer to stick with someone who is Arsenal through and through rather than an Ancelotti or other proven winner. For me Arsenal is different – that plus a belief that Wenger is not yesterday’s man makes me excited about the future.
KW: I use the term downhill to look at the points gap between Arsenal and the title winners. The club has never come as close since 2008. To these eyes, the reason for trying something different is because it feels like the same repeated failings are occurring season after season. The conclusion being that nothing has been learned. Do you agree that the same issues tend to occur (I am assuming you don't need them listed), and what makes you optimistic that after seeing them on a repeated basis anything is going to change in 2017-18? Do you think a change in formation is likely to address the reasons the team has consistently blown up in the league (if they are still in the title race at that time) and in Europe at the first sign of daffodils?
GP: You make fair points when you say that we have never come as close as we did in 2008 – was that the season that we sold Diarra at Christmas when we needed him in the Spring? For me 2008 was an exceptional year because we came close when we were a selling club. It was unlikely to be repeated until we became a buying club. Full marks to Wenger for enabling us to challenge in 2008 but he did it on restricted resources and talent. So I start my comments not from 2008 but from the year we became able to spend big sums to buy big talent – Ozil in August 2013 and Sanchez in July 2014.
I do accept that there is one weakness common to selling/buying times. For me – and I say again I am no coach – we have always lacked a leader. We have been flattered with the impact of Mercer, McClintock and Adams over the years. Either it is harder to find leaders or Wenger has not rated the importance of an inspiring captain. I give one example – in 1970 we lost the first leg of the Fairs Final and Bob Wilson records stirring words from Frank that had everyone in the team convinced we would win the second leg and the Cup. In Wenger’s defence leaders are not easy to acquire but I have often wondered if he downplays the “Churchill factor”.
Your point about repeated failings is relevant even if we disagree about the start date. You start in 2008 and I would start in July 2014 when we had Sanchez and Ozil. And I would go further and say I never understood why at the start of 2015 Wenger was content to sign only Cech. I doubted we could mount a challenge with Arteta, Flamini and Rosicky and whilst we were most people’s tip for the title in December 2015 we fell away. I always felt Wenger was vulnerable to criticism in failing to add more signings to the arrival of Cech.
The season just finished leaves you with “glass half empty or half full”. The low points were away defeat by Bayern – not the home tie despite the 1-5 defeat – the home game v Watford and the away games at WBA and Palace. We were found wanting and there was much press speculation about the causes – Were we trying? Were we “not up for it”? Were we “Fancy Dans”? I leave that to one side (though happy to address it) because for me the importance is the subsequent turnaround. We won nine games out of ten. We grew in confidence. We beat City, United and Chelsea. The one blot was the defeat by THFC but there were reasons for it that I can live with. It was early on in the switch to Three At The Back and THFC were firing on all cylinders. So come the end of the season I was on a high and remain on a high. You can ask why the switch to Three At The Back did not come earlier and that is for Wenger to answer. But if he takes responsibility for the failings prior to the change he can also claim respect for the subsequent success.. The focus is very much on next season and we all need to wait and see. For the present the debate goes on and there is one point I would like to address, and that is the reasons – playing performance apart – why Wenger irritates some fans.
KW: I think the answer to this is that he seems to have an arrogance which does not sit well with his relative lack of achievement - Arsenal have always supposedly been one of the 'big four', and yet since 2005, he has won so much less than Man Utd, Chelsea, and Man City (or Liverpool from 2005 to 2010). One can be arrogant if one backs it up with achievement of your team on the pitch. Wenger has never even managed to win a European trophy in a multitude of attempts with both Monaco and Arsenal. So this arrogance does not sit well with some. Arsène can dismiss the validity of the views of others (press, supporters, ex-players) if he backs it up with success on the field. For the most part, he falls short. Three FA Cups in fours seasons is a laudable achievement, but Arsenal have not come close to winning the title or winning a Champions League knockout tie in that time. They are about to sell Alexis Sanchez which will means their chances next season are even slimmer.
I have to say that my raising of the issue of outlay on wages was specifically to acknowledge that Arsenal had a good chance of triumph before 2013, but as you wish to consign the years between 2006 - 2013 as irrelevant to the argument, there seems little point in my going over that ground except to say I disagree. Clubs with far greater handicaps have beaten bigger spending sides in recent seasons - Borussia Dortmund, Atletico Madrid and Leicester City come to mind (the latter during the period you consider relevant to the debate - every other club in the top four spenders changed their manager in response). Arsenal could and should have won at least two titles in those seven campaigns.
When things are not going well, some fans prefer to see an element of humility, an admittance that the individual responsible has done something wrong (and by extension that self-awareness demonstrating a willingness to address the problems). Arsène often finds an excuse, rather than admitting it was his fault that, for example, the players played with the handbrake on. That refusal to take personal responsibility grates. Compare with the post-match interviews with the likes of Conte, Klopp and Sean Dyche to name but three. Managers loved by their fans (in the case of the latter two, even though they have at times failed). It is a sad reality that many Arsenal supporters have come to feel genuine hatred for Wenger, which is a very sad state of affairs, but one produced by the cocktail of his arrogance, lack of humility and repeated mistakes.
'Judge Me In May' he says. He did not have the balls to join the lap of appreciation after the Everton game because, having finished fifth, he knew that there would be a good number in the crowd who would pass judgement and it was a verdict he did not want to hear. He said at the start of last season that "This is the best group of players I have ever worked with". These are the ramblings of someone who is losing the plot. I have not worked "half a day in football" but I'd consider the title squads of 1998, 2002 and 2004 as superior. Such ridiculous statements only pour petrol onto the fire.
What do you attribute Arsène's refusal to take personal responsibility for the team's repeated failings in the league and Europe down to?
GP: I think it is the case that Wenger is very popular with a lot of fans and very unpopular with a lot of fans. He has his supporters and he has his detractors. I chided Matt Barlow of the Daily Mail for repeating that Arsenal fans are up in arms with Wenger. It’s not “Arsenal fans” who protest – it is “some Arsenal fans” who protest. Barlow in an email to me accepted my point. Protestors always make more noise than followers – you see it in politics everywhere. Protestors at Arsenal are more voluble than non-protestors. But none of us know the numbers – and we should not give the impression that “our” side is better supported than the “other” side.
Is he arrogant? The word means “having an exaggerated opinion of one’s own importance or ability” There are some who say “Yes he is” because he has only won Cups but not the League or the Champions League. There are others who say he has achieved much even if – for good reasons – he has fallen short in recent seasons. We are back to familiar argument here. Some will say that thee FA Cups since 2006 is poor reward. Others, like myself, who look at the stadium, top four and the turn from a selling club to a buying club will say he has achieved – as we will him to greater achievement. I find him an interesting man to listen to, he never avoids a press conference, he takes on his detractors and does not go missing sometimes after a bad defeat when feelings are high. I enjoy his observations on the game and the wider context of football and society. I enjoy his love of Arsenal . Yes there has been a lack of success but put in their proper context – rarely done by the media – they are not grounds for his departure and I love hearing what he has to say. And whilst reviled by some Arsenal fans he is held in the highest respect by so many more in and out of the Club.
You mention Borussia Dortmund, Atletico Madrid and Leicester City as being clubs “with far greater handicaps [who] have beaten bigger spending sides in recent seasons. Leicester surprised us all bar none and they, like Chelsea in the season just ended, benefited from being clear of European competition. I accept what you say about BD and AM but do not know enough about their leagues, stadiums and funding. My case of support for Wenger is not invalidated by other teams who have achieved more. It does not mean that Wenger should be sacked. It does mean that there is competition on all fronts - how much stronger the anti-Wenger case would be if Arsenal were mid-table even flirting with relegation. I think some fans find him frustrating because he has been there a long time. Leaders – Thatcher/Blair for example - cling to power too long. Critical fans are also people that believe that a change will bring success. It might – I concede that – but it might not as well.
As to humility – I think there is a point here which has not been considered. How helpful is it to the team, the club, the fans if the manager engages always in full and frank admissions for failure. What can follow is a loss of confidence, a belief that the manager cannot “do it”. The players stop believing and stop playing. There is a balance here – you cannot pretend all is well when it is not well because you are misleading people but listening to Wenger’s post match comments so often there is an acknowledgement that the opposition did better and performed to a higher level. He needs to have one eye on the fans and the media and another eye on the dressing room. The hardest challenge for a manager is to come through a bad period and Wenger excelled after making a vital change – itself an admission that four at the back which had worked up to Christmas, was not working in January/February. To his credit he made a big change – a fundamental change. He needed to convince the players it was right and they were hesitant at first – winning matches but not with confidence. But it bedded down and the performance in the Final surprised us all. A one off or a taste of things to come? The jury is out.
It is very difficult to justify “genuine hatred” for Wenger and I am not sure if you are saying that it is your belief or you are just expressing other people’s views. By all means be frustrated but to “hate”?? I have said many times – it is OK to hate bullies, racists and fascists. Real villains – real nasties of the worst sort. But “hate” a football manger? – this says more about the mind set of the hating fans than it does about Wenger. It shows a mindset of considerable distortion to say you “hate” Wenger. In recent days in the UK – in Manchester, Borough Market, Finsbury Park - we have seen examples of people who it is justifiable to hate. Does Wenger fall within that category? That the word is even used suggests a distorted mindset of worrying proportion.
Wenger has never lacked for courage – he has never ducked an interview. He missed the lap of appreciation – so so clearly – because he wanted to protect the players from those angry fans – those that “hate” Wenger - who would have shouted abuse in their predictable vulgar manner – and this on an occasion for children and families. And when he said – these are the best group of players I have worked with” it was his way of saying how much he respected them for effecting the winning streak (THFC apart) following their change to three at the back. The teams you mentioned – 1998, 2002 and 2004 – had greater achievement in terms of titles but that is not the point. They did not have to go through – as Bellerin did - the vulgar abuse and humiliation. This 2017 team were down, disheartened, devoid of confidence. They stuck to the task. They continued to believe and their reward was a performance in the final that we all enjoyed so much – that is what Wenger meant.
KW: Humility does not have to affect the confidence of the players - Antonio Conte displayed humility in huge doses last season, even when victorious. He comes across as a humble individual. Sometimes it is the tone of the words rather than what is said. I am not surprised Chelsea fans absolutely love the guy. He shows passion where appropriate and reverts to a very different, classy style once the 90 minutes is over. Not a trace of arrogance even if it could be justified.
As for the genuine hatred of Arsène, I have heard it expressed (and believe the people that say it because I hear the conviction in their voices) but it is not a personal view. I dislike elements of Arsène's public persona but don't know the man - and anyway, hate is a waste of energy regardless, so it's not an emotion I indulge in. And I would certainly not condone it. It simply isn't good for the health and adds to the difficulty of finding a solution. However, it is a reality, even if an unjustified one - football is full of hate, sad to say. People have been killed by other supporters because of the team they support.
I would certainly not equate Wenger with terrorists, and I have no idea of the intensity of the hatred of others in this regard. Football is only a game to me. A distraction, an entertainment. I actually find the collapses of Arsenal's seasons comical these days, because the passion I used to have for the team has dissipated with the repeated cock-ups and humiliations which have become the trademark of the club's campaigns since 2008. I doubt I will care much again until Arsène is gone, because to me, there is no hope of games meaning anything beyond trying to get into the top four, which does not particularly excite me after seeing the season played out in this way so many times (combined with the reality Arsène has not displayed the tactical acumen to progress to the business end of the Champions League since 2009).
An important point regarding Arsène's "best squad" statement - it was made at the beginning of the 2016-17 season. It was hardly one he could make at the conclusion of the season given what had gone before. Arsène has stated he expects to win the title next season. My next question is whether you believe a change in manager in the summer of 2019 would be desirable if Arsène failed to deliver a genuine season-long title challenge in the next two seasons?
GP: Yes I like Conte – his comments not his antics on the touchline – ditto with Klopp but that is more the age in which we live. Busby, Shankly, Mee, Nicholson and Cullis all from the 1950’s/60’s were quiet by comparison. It is an observation – different managers and different eras have different styles and standards. Wenger, like Pochettino, does not run up and down the line. But back to humility I am not sure where this takes the discussion. A lot of Arsenal fans “absolutely love” Wenger – and I count myself in that group. I accept some fans really dislike him. The issue is not popularity but whether a manager can do the job. Conte is very likeable and I warm to him. And if Wenger was struck down will illness tomorrow my vote would be for Conte. But for reasons I have previously stated I remain fully behind Wenger.
I accept that you do not “hate” Wenger but others do. You can see it, feel it, touch it. But hate must not triumph. Mob rule is against everything a democratic state stands for. But the issue is not hate and the crowd but whether there are good reasons for believing that Wenger remains the right man. That is what divides you and I. So be it – we both have views. I do understand where you are coming from. I know your arguments and I ask myself if I am being too stubborn or if you are being too stubborn. If Wenger succeeds I am vindicated. If Wenger fails you are vindicated. Whatever we think, believe, write – it is what happens on the pitch that matters and I saw enough last season to be optimistic about next season. I liked Three At The Back. I liked the new angles that Ramsey and Ozil were able to exploit. I loved the confidence that spread throughout the team. I loved the success that it bought and I m excited by likely additions to the staff – keeping room for younger players to make an impact.
I do take issue when you talk about “repeated cock-ups and humiliations”. No question there have been bad results and under-achievement and I have provided you with my arguments for commencing from 2013 and not 2008. I think you exaggerate Wenger’s shortfalls by starting from 2008. I think there are valid and sustainable reasons for starting in 2013 and even then we bought only Ozil and then Sanchez in terms of big spending. Just as you have lost heart, can you accept that I and many others are excited about the future? Either I am a starry eyed optimist or you are a doom laden pessimist. And there is this point too – are we unable to admit we are wrong? If AFC mount a serious and sustained challenge throughout the season you must be prepared to say you are wrong. Similarly if our season dissipates and we end up shot I must be prepared to say I was wrong.
I don’t think Wenger has said as you claim, that “he expects to win the title”. Do let me know the source. I would expect him to say that we will be title contenders and be up there with the top teams and in with a shout. That is as much as anyone can say – so tight is the competition. Let me ask you a question - if Arsène delivers a genuine season long title would you be prepared to say that you had got it wrong? Now let me answer your question. Wenger should be replaced in 2019 if Arsenal fail to deliver a genuine season long title challenge in the next two seasons.
KW: Yes, if Arsène did deliver a season-long title challenge, I would be prepared to say I had got it wrong, because there is nothing to suggest he will do anything different this season.
Ed’s note - We’ll take a break there and continue with the second and concluding part of these exchanges tomorrow.
