Are the Invincibles still the Premier League’s greatest ever team?

Manchester City’s 100 points haul was ten more than the 2003-04 champions



Are the Invincibles still the Premier League’s greatest ever team?


How does one judge the quality of a title-winning team? By points scored? Number of games won? Number of defeats? Or the style in which the title was won? The latter of course is a subjective immeasurable. However, with Manchester City having reached the total of 100 points in winning the Premier League this season (out of a possible 114), there is an argument that they were the best ever. There is no question that they broke a hatful of records last season.

And it’s not only the Gunners that are in the debate for this mythical crown. There are reasons to make a case for a couple of Alex Ferguson’s Manchester United sides (1998/99 and 2007/08) and Chelsea in Mourinho’s first season at the club (2004/05). There’s a Betway blog on this subject if you wish to see how a panel of five came to an interesting conclusion on this very subject.

In winning the title without losing a single match 14 seasons ago, Arsene Wenger’s Invincibles team secured 90 points, winning 26 and drawing 12. They were the first team to go through a season unbeaten since Preston North End (who had to play fewer fixtures) in the early days of the Football League back in the 19th century.

It’s a difficult feat to achieve. Chelsea came closest the season after Arsenal did it, losing a solitary game. Mourinho’s side also set the points record of 95 during that campaign, only toppled by City this season, even though Pep Guardiola’s side lost two fixtures. That the Eastlands side scored ten points more than the Invincibles was down to their record number of wins.

Ultimately, Chelsea’s team are not remembered with a great deal of love by the neutrals. Their clinical efficiency did not always entertain and their spiky manager hardly endeared them to neutrals. Manchester United’s sides undoubtedly played with more swagger (and albeit enjoying an element of fortune, they managed to win Champions League trophies to add to their titles in 1999 and 2008), but a general ‘Anyone But United’ feeling often permeated the emotions of others for many seasons. The financial advantage and air of superiority exuded by the club makes it difficult for anyone but their supporters to really warm to them. Add to this a perception that, certainly in the Ferguson era, they were more often than not the beneficiaries of key 50/50 decisions from the officials, and it’s easy to see why Wenger’s team is recalled more fondly.

What about Guardiola’s Manchester City? It’s too early to say how they will be looked upon in the future – as this may partly be shaped by events to come. There is no question that their financial advantage over everyone but their neighbours does not go down too well, although at the same time, it is accepted that their football has been highly entertaining.

However, when you combine the style of Arsenal’s play in 2003-04, their not having a significant financial advantage, the fact they denied both an unpopular Manchester United and a Chelsea side enjoying the first season of Roman Abramovich’s fortune and the achievement of remaining unbeaten, then it is easier to reach one particular conclusion. And for those that recall there was such goodwill to the side that even many neutrals were willing them to complete the campaign unbeaten once they had secured the title with four matches remaining.

That conclusion is that Arsenal in 2003-04 were probably the most popular ever Premier League title winners, and by extension, the most fondly remembered. Going on the records, the only criteria you could call them the greatest was remaining undefeated. In pretty much any other measurable scale, there have been better champions. But football is as much about feelings and memories as statistics and isn’t it nice to be loved?


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  1. Ernie71

    Jun 12, 2018, 21:19 #110539

    The comments that always keep coming back when Arsenal fans talk about the Invincibles is "How many CL's did that team win and how many back to back titles did they achieve?" and we all know the answer.To me to be a truly great team you have to win the CL.Sir Alex never did an Invincible season but he won 3 in a row titles twice and the treble.Thats the sign of true greatness Monsieur Wenger

  2. markymark

    Jun 12, 2018, 19:52 #110538

    MBG - We all know it don’t we ( apart from two losers ). Petit has been quoted as saying Real will not go for Wenger as he has the reputation of being a loser . Now I think Petit has usually towed the line but Wenger has gone , he can’t freeeze out anyone , his power has crumbled . I’m sure he was very nice to those he had to be nice to but the truth is outing. He spent the last 10 years as a serial loser . Domestic Cups aside he was found wanting at every major test.

  3. mbg

    Jun 12, 2018, 18:21 #110535

    There we have it as if we didn't already know, Sagna has told Unai to shed Arsenal's Nice Culture, he must change the attitude of the dressing room if we are to fight for trophies again, he says the team was to nice, they didn't like to argue, we were to nice to each other, aw diddum's how nice of the little pansies, he goes on, to be successful you have to be bad sometimes to have a go at each other, if someone wasn't giving 100% nobody got any blame nobody said anything, aw how nice, he reckons Unai will bring much needed discipline to the team and club (just what the WOB's have been saying for years) Hurray long over due. Exciting times ahead.

  4. markymark

    Jun 12, 2018, 18:14 #110534

    Brian standing naked, stared at Himself in the mirror. He proceeded to pick off a bit of omelette that was stuck to his genitals. Recently Brian had begun experimenting by rubbing egg yoke on his testicles but found that Omelette was more satisfactory. Tomorrow he might dip the end of his Penis in a jar of Peanut Butter, sheer boredom in his Care home had led him to experiment in this manner. Brian in truth was at a loss. The world was changing . His hero Mugabe had been deposed and the 1000 year reich / rule of Wenger terminated by that filthy Rabble. Brian longed for the old certainties, where was Westie? where was Jamee? and where was his Colesey? Thinking of Colesey made Brian remember their Hooligan postings., oh those heady days ! Brian suddenly felt a compelling need to rub his genitals with that tub of Skippy. Oh you filthy WOR , you filthy WOB’s, Brian began to groan.....

  5. mbg

    Jun 12, 2018, 15:30 #110525

    Exeter Ex, and that's something just like his messiah he'll never receive, idiot. Exciting times ahead.

  6. Exeter Ex

    Jun 12, 2018, 13:29 #110521

    "he hadn't listened" except for making reference to every comment made. You care, you care so very deeply what we think of you. You crave our acceptance and understanding that Wenger should've carried on into his 80s.

  7. Badarse

    Jun 12, 2018, 8:21 #110511

    He slipped into the bathroom, he must wipe that mushroom omelette up that he'd dropped last night. He took a long look at himself in the mirror, then he stepped closer and took a shorter look. He looked the same. How had he failed so badly? These amazing Brians had all been there telling him where he had gone wrong, constantly. What weight of intelligence lined up against him. He had failed and decided to poke himself in the eye as a punishment, but he missed. He bent to tie his laces and bumped his head on the table. Things are going wrong all the time. He looked towards these mentals. They stood snivelling but in an intelligent manner. One was weeing into the welly of another. All claiming to be centrists or lefties but all clamoured to stand on someone else's right. They moved around in a circle. Then he noticed the froth from their mouths dribbling down their chins, though most appeared chinless. He took another look at himself and shrugged, then he twitched, then he did his Elvis moves and was thankful that he hadn't listened to the cacophony of mindless drivel on offer from the Lost Boys. He handed them all a bald egg.

  8. markymark

    Jun 12, 2018, 7:58 #110510

    Exeter - when the moral arbiter of the site , Baddie has to offer up Community Shields you know he is in trouble . I really do scratch my head that a chap who’s never been to a premier league game at the Emirates can hold his support and his own views on Arsenal in such high regard. Most would see him as a passive . I do get that the general age and geographical placement of contributors can reduce attendance . But this old fool dared to start bantering around on who was the best Arsenal Supporter awards like he’s some God like figure. Just like Jamerson who decided to retire from Arsenal?!? The guy is seriously deluded. I expect his waffle around Radford is very faded as well. He’s always on about how he can remember it like it was yesterday . Poetic licence which is a polite way off saying bull****.

  9. Exeter Ex

    Jun 11, 2018, 23:52 #110509

    You could tell he'd lost the argument as he'd started referring to himself in the third person and tried to distract with contentious political accusations he knew had no foundation. He did this because he knew he simply didn't have the weight of argument to take on his opponents in a straight fight. He felt in his bones that, now dear old Arsene was gone, Arsenal would never feel like Arsenal again. For some it was the stadium; for him it was a single man.

  10. markymark

    Jun 11, 2018, 17:24 #110504

    Baddie - As a member of the “Vanguard of change” you no doubt found that the weight of public opinion crushed you. The weight of public opinion crushed your Wenger as well. You should listen to the likes of MBG , JJetplane , Exeter , A Cornish , Cornish , the much missed Arseneknewbest and many others . All of whom have tried to tell you where you are going wrong. But no fool like an old fool eh? Why you’re on about Trump for Lord knows? Don’t think we have a huge American Trumpist contingent on here? By supporting aesthetics and militants you’ve achieved precisely nothing. For all you may hate Blair he pushed social progress over 3 general elections. Corbyn who will likely not be elected you’ll get bugger all. Same goes for Wenger’s Camelot. 14 years of failure. A more pragmatic manager would have got at least two titles in that timeframe even allowing for so called financial doping. I’ve got a feeling Unai is going to set your teeth on edge with disciplined performances and fancy dan trickery punished. Bring it on I say .

  11. mbg

    Jun 11, 2018, 15:16 #110499

    jj, spot on, the wengerites absolutely hate that the WOB's we right all along and that it's been proved, and that all the WOB's have got behind the new man and his regime and are giving him/them their full support, they'd loved to have seen the WOB's continue where they left of with their messiah, now they don't know which way to turn, they can't make up their minds to join us, and lose face, by supporting him and his regime to, and at the same time turning against or their backs on their beloved messiah, they still have so/that much luuuuvvvv for the old weasel, they probably think he'll be back in August, a very confused bunch of wengerites at the moment,(and in more ways than one) I wonder is Eileen Drury still on the go, she could well help them. Exciting times ahead.

  12. Badarse

    Jun 11, 2018, 10:22 #110483

    He had been defeated and no amount of reflexology would save them. It was odd as he didn't know that he was in a fight or a froth, still it served him right for not joining a witch hunt for an Arsenal manager. He knew that many in the rabble were the same types who had elected Trump and the May government so he steered well clear, poop 'U' lists were dodgy. He had asked, ' Which hunt is this?' and was told yes, which confused him. So he just put on his red donkey jacket, the one with the white sleeves, and sang the 'blues', which if nothing else was quite patriotic. He then went and sat in the cupboard under the stairs and watched the electric meter's wheel spin around. It was his way of nodding off. As his eyes closed he heard the strange and sometimes hurtful words written on the posts; talk of a creature, embarrassment, dead terms,(he'd never even seen a live one in his garden), grief, outrage, not recognising a new manager, all the four members of the 'A' poxy list were riding around in circles. He didn't understand. He had no vitriol towards a manager leaving, nor a new one arriving, wasn't defending, unless defending in the other team's half counted. Still perhaps it was all a nightmare and these poor peeps were fig leaves of his imaginarium. Agh, the push bikes are forming a convoy, and I'm just watching the wheels.

  13. mbg

    Jun 11, 2018, 2:06 #110481

    And low and behold he who thinks he's holier than thou, and preaches crap all the time, and gets worried and insulted by others using girls names and names of football teams and flowers, insinuating racism although he's best mates with a racist himself comes along and uses a three letter racist terms/name that could be construed and as offensive, and is, describing a drink, (nothing holier than thou there then)I guess that puts paid to him accusing others, but I suppose it's just his true colours coming out again.

  14. Exeter Ex

    Jun 10, 2018, 23:46 #110480

    Badarse's posts today are just plain embarrassing. Wenger is gone but he's still diligently on the lookout for any criticism of him, still using dead terms to abuse those who were right, still defending him. Him and Toad are so transparent it's just embarrassing. Slowly stumbling through those stages of grief, will they ever realise it's all over for them.

  15. jjetplane

    Jun 10, 2018, 21:09 #110479

    That's it Markymark - we are happy for the future of Arsenal and it is so obvious the Wenger in mob are well pissed off. In denial thinking it would never happen and look on Untold where they are not even recognising Unai as the manager. Better get used to it because the Wenger legacy was rubbed out seasons ago. The jubilant WOB have won!

  16. markymark

    Jun 10, 2018, 20:39 #110478

    Baddie - honestly in your perfect world how would our posts require to be written to make it perfectly acceptable to you? There’s s bit of the Honecker about you. Not grim enough to be obviously evil but a sort of wet blanket approach that wants to smother honest discussion about Wenger. You say we froth and god knows what , I see freedom. You’re Way is Socialist Nurseries potty training all in a row and when you’re 7 don the pioneer neckerchief and sing songs for the regime . You can’t control the discourse so understand that the vast amount of social media traffic is pro change. Untold ( Toads circle jerk fix ) is dying. 20,000 stopped turning up. The weight of public opinion spoke and it crushed your argument I’m afraid

  17. jjetplane

    Jun 10, 2018, 19:36 #110477

    We all know who is mixed up and frothing now. Here's hoping The Holloway Bowl is now fit for purpose with a young bright eyed coach at the helm. Someone asking over on Untold 'they will keep the banner of Mr Wenger won't they? ...' Aaaaah the tumbling of fragile empires - bit like that Romanian one. Have noticed how rent a gob Arsene no longer has the press asking him his profound (sic) He really is Nowhere Man/ la la la la .... Happy frothing Batman & Robin.

  18. mbg

    Jun 10, 2018, 17:32 #110476

    Don Howe, ha ha, good post, I personally don't care either, but it's just we kept hearing from his fans and wengerites he could/would walk into any club in Europe after being head hunted for years, (something we all also had our doubts about) as we know they'd believe anything, and here he is still wandering/bumbling about on the dole. Exciting times ahead.

  19. mbg

    Jun 10, 2018, 16:59 #110475

    jj, a couple of cracking posts there, exciting times ahead.

  20. Don Howe

    Jun 10, 2018, 16:58 #110474

    Who cares whether the creature has another job. Seriously. MBG. The nightmare is over. The stupid bar stand has left the building. He can't hurt us any more. Just imagine how wonderful next season will be. The uncertainty. The fun. The drama. No more about the creature. I would have preferred him walking the plank but he got sacked which is very nearly as good, because he didn't want it to happen - and that my dear old thing was his absolute bête noire. Ha ha ha ha

  21. mbg

    Jun 10, 2018, 16:00 #110473

    Has TOF got a job yet ?

  22. Badarse

    Jun 10, 2018, 15:38 #110472

    Gibbs? No, Cazorla, no Ramsey, no Koscielny, no the weather. A defender doing his job well is surely something a certain group complain of as absent? You conflate and the tyre just gets bigger and bigger. OK jj, sorry about the crash but did it affect your approach and style? Not a jot. Glad you are OK, but wish your posts were too.

  23. markymark

    Jun 10, 2018, 13:56 #110471

    Baddie - almost but not quite . The win against Hull is owed to Gibbs who gave Wenger 3 more years. The really good performance was against Chelsea but of course we did not kick on. 2014 when everybody packed up and went home exposed Wenger’s failing powers his financial doping argument even if true was left in tatters by Raineri . Of course Wenger was financially doped himself his salary was far higher than Alegri . The Bayern Munich results were gross incompetence . The Athletico result was a mugging . The Forest away was pure humiliation . The 20k who stayed away ( Toad was gutted at this ) were his death.If you’re going to shout charity shields? C’mon now

  24. jjetplane

    Jun 10, 2018, 12:44 #110470

    Rudimentary as twas Thatcher who destroyed the industry in this Jahrusalem of an isle (see The Pop Group) as Wenger did the same at AFC resulting in a Full Monte as pronounced by the likes of Bellerin and the Exiled Giroud - neither of who know how to do it in style (see Suggs or Mr Weller). For someone who really is not worth addressing on here I was involved in a crash and having had three ops I am thinking of getting a new bike and having a quiet ride. For another the idea of having 12 pints of dark stew masquerading as grogg to get a bit of a left lean only to fall in love with Maggie may (sic) can be safely filed under astonishing tales. I too for the record am an original Islington Kaffalick boy (north ward) and now a pseudo anarcho atheist who loves a stir & re the repetitious compulsion of most posters I consider GG the single greatest influence on Arsenal in my lifetime. Loving Unai already and I bet he has a greater interest in Da Stroller than he has on some slimey old accountant. Marky Sure the irriots will eventually slunk off as it's clear as day they have no time for a new way of looking at things. Untold indeed ....

  25. Badarse

    Jun 10, 2018, 11:50 #110469

    Morning Marky I have saved my penis up but it keeps hanging down, that is gravitas in action. Well yes your homework is on the button but how it works out is possibly another thing. Still the early signs are promising and we can but hope. It is true Arsene was a master in the early days, but the phrase 'a man for all seasons' is a tall order when put to the test. We are all victims of a place in time and the only way to leave it is by dying. A perfect plan, when stars align and other hocus pocus lends itself can produce the perfect end result. In another parallel universe it fails. It is true that it had stopped working at the Arsenal for a while, in a certain respect, but as stated often enough, to win 3 FA Cups, 3 Community Shields, (against class opposition), a runners up position, and of course a Euro S/F in our last 5 seasons isn't failure. Not achieving expectations perhaps is. It is convenient to parcel everything up into a neat package and hang a label on a scapegoat but other forces were at work. We all understand them, petro-dollars, Russian gangster money, weak control by the PL, subscription telly influencing the charge of the light brigade style footie, a definite move away from defensive football, travelling mercenaries as the new players acting like hired guns, changes in rules constantly, too many matches, a weak board at AFC who abdicated responsibility, a mistake in welcoming a carpetbagger as a shareholder on the board and selling him an operational control number of shares. So many factors. Still, much easier to blame an individual. I dislike May intensely but I cannot blame her for a shoddy government and the way it operates, she is just holding the reins, whilst some in the cabinet hold what looks like a noose.

  26. markymark

    Jun 10, 2018, 11:27 #110468

    Good morning to you Baddie - remember to save up those pennies and see an Emery side in Premier action. It will be interesting how pragmatic he actually is. Most reports suggest attacking wing play is his forte other reports suggest a real wilyness almost Mourinho like. Imo I reckon our away performances may be quite different . Wenger’s Camelot could work when the team was head and shoulders above all but one. As soon as others caught up Wenger’s tactical weakness was exposed. To win away from home and recoup 12 points or more we will need to keep shape and strong discipline . Get the home crowd edgy and build a rep for late winners when needed

  27. Badarse

    Jun 10, 2018, 10:53 #110467

    He'd played it a million and five times in his mind, this he thought a counter argument. He glanced down at his rag tags. His raggedy old trews had a 50p tag still attached, his donkey jacket a 3/11p tag attached. He bit his lip-it was the only one around, and he couldn't break the habit. He saw a little Wriggly boy rabble on his shirt and picked it off. Shucks! It was a shirt button. Later he would go to his care home and knock again, perhaps this time they would let him in; he would pretend to be a Jehovah's Winkleless. He would write another grape poem, 'Ah, sultana is a-raising in the currant bun's light. Drink, drink, drink, it up. Drink it down, gravity helps.' It still required a little work. His dad had owned a Vanguard, actually three. Ah, Standard Vanguards! He swore a racist oath. 'I shall be all white when the boot comes in, but who will have a little fishy on the little dishy?'

  28. Badarse

    Jun 10, 2018, 10:19 #110466

    Yes Marky, I don't know how many-0. Ha ha. Enjoy the day.

  29. markymark

    Jun 10, 2018, 9:38 #110465

    Baddie - the rag tag filthy Wenger Boy rabble down to just two as they were slowly picked off. One is knocking around a Care home ( or should be ) writing grope poems . The so called Vanguard of change along with the sex perverts (PIE) One a drunken racist oath. Is that glitchy enough for you ?

  30. Don Howe

    Jun 10, 2018, 9:00 #110464

    Yes.

  31. Badarse

    Jun 10, 2018, 8:18 #110463

    JJ arrives and mentions 'The Bitch', Cyril reappears and goes all a flutter. Crazy, but it's footie related as Thatcher did have at least one foot. He trots out the Holloway Bowl-done to death. Takes a side swipe at AW, bigs up the Stroller. All old news and they could be recycled posts, as I know he hasn't a puncture today. A faux reactionary and pioneer wants Bellerin to have a haircut? It's why I have always found his posts ridiculous as he parodies the criticism levelled at ageing minstrels, they still dress to the left but start to lean to the right. He is mixed up and his posts illustrate it. Still Cyril understands them so all is well.

  32. Badarse

    Jun 10, 2018, 7:58 #110462

    Morning my little egg nogs. Sorry I have lost count. I did intend this to illustrate how whenever I post an innocent football-related post I get flack. It doesn't harm me but it is naff. Still I accept that others have glitches-we all do-but their ones are to respond in a faux WORrier style. Just typing WOR is apt to attract an avalanche of nonsense, yet the ones then attacking that acronym clearly act like a rabble. It prompts a response. I have amended my approach and have refocused on some silly boys, but most times I ignore. I did actually consider any abuse aimed at TOOAW too in the running score but had I, then I would have lost count that much earlier. Exiled has a point and it is boring having daft exchanges, so look more carefully and note I do not react unless I feel it apt. I try to address nonsense in my little skits, and for some they may amuse, certainly they amuse my chum TOOAW so that works for me. Don't like the humour? Don't read. Scripts are not the only things that can be marked as 'UNREAD'.

  33. Cyril

    Jun 10, 2018, 2:07 #110461

    JJ: you are out of order to bring Thatcher into this forum. I’m from Islington and am left leaning especially after a Guinness or 12. For the record, Thatcher won the 64 by-election in Finchley and never looked back. She toyed with back bencher Corbyn who got elected in 83 in my locality in Islington. We pulled the previous good man O Halloran out of the pub on the Archway Rd to have a crack to represent us. I don’t do politics but as a catholic local lad in Islington, we were a poor second in schooling by comparison to the schools in Finchley. As a local politician she was second to none when I was growing up. I hope that relieves the smell as much as I don’t not agree with many of her policies....

  34. Exiled in Pt

    Jun 09, 2018, 23:31 #110460

    Laughter is the best medicine although......

  35. markymark

    Jun 09, 2018, 23:07 #110459

    Exiled in PT - nothing to disagree with you on your points, ( well made . ) Have a little look at the comment immediately below yours . Sometimes you just have to laugh!

  36. TOOAW

    Jun 09, 2018, 22:30 #110458

    Exiled 3. Arteta fanboy 0.

  37. Exiled in Pt

    Jun 09, 2018, 21:54 #110457

    Not trying to tell you not to reply. Just sometimes like you say hit the ignore button rather than feed it! Think the bull**** is clear to see just maybe does not need pointing out all the time. On to more important things and i agree with your point about the Barcelona lite project and do think that with Dick in charge we may see a return to more GG like performances. Preferably a team similar to the 90/91 side who i still think personally were equal to the invincible team.But of course that was before the birth of the pl.

  38. markymark

    Jun 09, 2018, 21:23 #110456

    Course words don’t bother me in the slightest had a physical confrontation the other day when I turned the financial tap off to an individual. I get called all sorts of names. However not so sure about you , you seem chippy about “posh words” As you appear to have disappeared off the site for a little while perhaps you missed 3 years worth of WOR comments aimed continually at myself and a few others. This gives me the perfect right to dish it out . Particularly when I spot complete bull**** from that individual. Though perhaps after reading his Vanguard of Change statement I should really just expect anything and press ignore. It’s an opinion forum with constant waves of joy , anger , resentment and argument . Virtually everyone has had some sort of spat. Me and he, who will be nameless have just been slightly longer than most. You saying I’ve never had a go at anyone on a site well big deal. If I met him in real life I’d probably give him a hug .

  39. Exiled in Pt

    Jun 09, 2018, 20:55 #110455

    To common for fancy words Mark, not quite sure who i have been digging out on here either.Not on here to keep sniping at every comment made by 1 person. Will let people on here know if i agree or disagree that is the point is it not? Just not constantly banging on at one person. Apologies if your not keen on my coarse language but i do not think your find there's any abuse aimed at any posters on here only the owner the board and Wenger before he went!!

  40. markymark

    Jun 09, 2018, 20:45 #110454

    Jjetplane - I’m really hoping for the pressing game but able to also change tactics away from home. Wouldn’t care a jot if Ozil was sold. 1-0 to the Arsenal would certainly raise a smile on my face. We can then hopefully put to bed this ridiculous notion that Arsenal have always played gung-ho expressive football. The entire history of Arsenal was based on less possession and counter attack. I suspect as Wenger successfully increased our possession percentages we actually started falling away. The Barcelona lite model needs consigning to history

  41. jjetplane

    Jun 09, 2018, 20:21 #110453

    Even signed back onto Arsenal.com now it's all about Unai though if you have a quick peak over at the ruinous temple of Untold you would think the French economist who was found out was still the manager. They are now praying well about three of them that their banal little banner about ahem art & football will remain hanging off a stand. Here's hoping to Unai turning Arsenal into a cohesive fighting unit and the players who can hack it lapping the new mass ego that sees no division and is up for a fight. If they are to spend money it should all go on putting down a deposit on Sessegnon who is surely going to be the player of the next decade. Funny old thing Barca went quiet on Bellerin but maybe Unai can get out his sissors and give the lad a once over and try and get him back to where he was before he got cosily wrapped up in mon uncle's non football world. Wenger is a bit like Thatcher - takes quite a time to get the smell out of Arsenal history by just saying Adams was the manager in 97 to all intents and the players ran that show for a few amazing years. GG was the Holy Ghost and somehow I feel Unai may be a bit like The Stroller. Oh well - off fundraising tonight for a good cause so have fun you lot!

  42. markymark

    Jun 09, 2018, 20:05 #110452

    Exiled in PT - so it’s fancy words is it how very dare you! When you say We the evidence is actually you.mean you. Perhaps you need to find a few fancy words yourself . Sounds like a chip or reverse snobbery to me. As I said post columns yourself , drive the agenda. So your not digging people out? You do it every post fella ! Your postings are full of invective so don’t try pulling the sensible adult persona . Your as full of it as anyone else on here.

  43. 1971 Gooner

    Jun 09, 2018, 19:21 #110451

    Yes Frank, they were because they set a record that can only be equalled, not beaten.

  44. mbg

    Jun 09, 2018, 19:18 #110450

    markymark, well said, he's kidding no one, even if he thinks he is.

  45. Exiled in Pt

    Jun 09, 2018, 18:47 #110449

    Why would i want to get you banned!! You sound like kids in the playground. Same as many others i am saying its boring. Everyone can have there opinions, you make me laugh with the constant sniping at each other then claiming each other should be banned.Throw in a few fancy words and we are all supposed to marvel over your amazing intellect. Wenger will be mentioned would not expect anything else, have mentioned him myself in posts. Just i am not using his name to try and continually dig someone out because they don't agree with my thoughts..

  46. mbg

    Jun 09, 2018, 18:43 #110448

    jj, good post, and I see Pires is looking a place/role in the new coaching set up, the Boss could do worse than give him a roll coaching the youth team/teams even though he was another one of these wenger luvvies .

  47. markymark

    Jun 09, 2018, 18:42 #110447

    Yes ToOaW a bit like your 0-6 strategic defeats under he who shall not be named . Pull out that crumpled faded memento now 14 years old and weep into your Buckie

  48. TOOAW

    Jun 09, 2018, 18:33 #110446

    2-0 to Badarse.

  49. mbg

    Jun 09, 2018, 18:02 #110445

    Cyril, great post, like I said that team/teams needed no coaching.

  50. markymark

    Jun 09, 2018, 18:00 #110444

    Baddie - so you play this a millions times in your mind do you ? This equates to roughly 70 times a day , so no , maybe 70 times a week ? No don’t think so, maybe 70 times a year ? Very much doubt it. In fact I doubt you’ve actually replayed it in your mind 70 times in the last 30 years. Why do you propogate this bull****? Try going to the Emirates go on super Supporter !

  51. mbg

    Jun 09, 2018, 17:48 #110443

    They were certainly an invincible team for working things out and coaching, and knowing what to do themselves.

  52. markymark

    Jun 09, 2018, 17:30 #110442

    Exiled in PT - As been mentioned before we have a number of contributors who say stop this or stop that. They then disappear for months at a time . The void is then filled . One of our contributors continues to use the term WOR ( I can only assume he’s bitter ) if he uses WOR I hold the option to call him an enabler. Get us both banned if you like . Don’t care a toss . But stop moaning and post yourself. You’d then have the ability to mould agenda to something you like. I would suggest though if you think Wenger’s never going to be mentioned again either pro or anti your living in cloud cuckoo land . Try end of 2019 and then it’s all sbout Emery .

  53. Exiled in Pt

    Jun 09, 2018, 16:24 #110441

    Seriously we got this to look forward to all season. Every topic dragged back to bitching about Wenger.Pro him or against it does not matter he has no longer any ties to this club, get over it. People still going on like they were the ones that got rid of him. Grow up move on its fuc#ing boring....

  54. Badarse

    Jun 09, 2018, 15:22 #110440

    He swept along the passageway, it wasn't dusty but he swept all the same. He kept to the centre avoiding left and right, he was a centrist after all. He knew which side his bread was buttered as he dropped his open egg sandwich on the floor. He was beside himself so nodded 'Hello'; he got no reply. Still he was more disappointed that his script had been rejected as 'UNREAD'. Yet he knew it had been read, he'd read it to himself the evening he wrote it; he had chuckled and clucked himself to sleep. He frothed the next morning at breakfast, 'I had a dream!' Unfortunately it was the type of dream you never informed others of, involving a dead fish, a sombrero, and three yards of Sellotape. He sat on the sofa but noted in actuality he sat on his red, white and blue Y-Fronts, and in turn sat on his commando trews, plus his phone in his rear pocket, only then had he sat on the sofa. Physics wasn't his strongest suit, though the 'off the peg' Primark one was equally as wishy washy, still it might get him a part in the Virtual OG Panto of Aladdin this Xmas.

  55. Badarse

    Jun 09, 2018, 15:08 #110439

    Embarrassing but here goes, 1-0.

  56. markymark

    Jun 09, 2018, 14:38 #110438

    Badarse - “I’ve played it a million times in my head” who are you trying to kid? total and utter bull**** . This is total pretence covering up your continual aggressive bigotry against supporters who wanted genuine change

  57. Badarse

    Jun 09, 2018, 11:01 #110437

    Ron I think you touched on an ethereal aspect which colours our views. That is the beauty of a love, whether for footie, opera, any of the arts, a friend, or a time. Hang onto those golden slumbers fella, they are priceless, and never make any excuses for your feelings. I always get that vision of the era which has been played out so often on telly, and a million times more inside my head. Ball finds Rixy on the left in bright sunshine accentuating the golden yellow of the shirts, a cross, it drops at the far post and Alan Sunderland sweeps into view and crashes the ball into the roof of the net. The cup is ours!

  58. northbank123

    Jun 08, 2018, 20:46 #110435

    Arsenal 2003-04, Chelsea 2004-05 and United 2007-08. Best 3 sides in PL history for me, all excellent teams in different ways. United 1998-99 weren't the best side in terms of quality but achieved the most out of all. This City team are a very strong side but not as good as the top 3 for me. 100 points is a massive achievement and it reflects their efficiency in terms of being able to beat sides week in, week out - which is largely what wins you league titles. But they did take a few hidings against Liverpool, lost to a League 1 side in the FA Cup and blew a monumental opportunity to make history from 2-0 up at home to a dross United side. Completely wilting in big games is something that the sides above didn't do.

  59. Cyril

    Jun 08, 2018, 20:30 #110434

    Hi Ron, yes that was a tricky encounter. So much happened that year. The mootings of a move to a new stadium. The purchase of Reyes who was a lovely player but perhaps didn’t settle for long enough. We also purchased a young RVP. A sensational performance from Henry in the return with LFC with Archie Gemmil like swivel scoring a hatrick after being turfed out of the cups. The draw at Spurs to clinch it (wow). I was at the home game against Spurs and they went a goal up scored by sicknote and were singing ‘champions league, your aving a laugh’. We then go 2-1 up and we’re singing ‘ premier league your having ...’ Ron,the whole season was so memorable and it was an amazing journey. I’m sure you were at the games as well and for me whilst it wasn’t the best side, it weren’t far from it. Bear in mind, we were on a 30 game unbeaten league run a year before for a Mr Rooney put paid to that. All in all, whilst I love the 98 side, the period between 2002 to 2004 we saw a 30 and 49 game league unbeaten run. Whilst i have had my criticisms of Wenger many years on, this period has to be considered near the greatest ever for consistency. Arsene Wenger was absolutely outstanding in this period. Bravo to him for that.

  60. Badarse

    Jun 08, 2018, 18:30 #110433

    Hello jj how's the punctures? Well the sabbatical hasn't improved your throw away disdain, has it? Half myth? I know of a half missus which could be a miss, or a hit? Perspective chum. Might have won the CL by then? True, or the boat race if they were silly oars. Waited a lifetime? What a decade? You needed to be cut or should I say hewn from teak or oak like my support before you bandy those illicit comments around. Supporting from 1955 and waited 13 years before a Cup Final, a loss without a goal and another the following year as a loser. Fifteen years before we snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. Now that seemed a lifetime. Anyway ding-a-ling.

  61. jjetplane

    Jun 08, 2018, 18:03 #110432

    The wheels were coming off for that 2004 team and the 2002 model for me was better though the Pires injury & the accolade he got when the league was won was a watershed moment. Wenger should have been relieved of his duties then and the Invincible thing which is hardly invincible with half the squad begrudgingly joining the fight much influenced by Wenger's soft touch and perverse indifference, might not have happened. But a new manger and club direction for 2003 makes me think we would have won the CL by now and at least two more PLs. Instead we waited a lifetime for some fortunate cup wins and one where Chelsea oddly gave up. Would love to see Unai lead out a team for the FA Cup and that would really be a merry month of May sunfest. Bring on the new and bollocks to the Invincible half myth. It did nothing to help Arsenal's popularity amongst the neutrals and did much to cement the yawning complacency that was to follow. There really was though nothing to compare with Pires when he was really on it.

  62. Yes its Ron

    Jun 08, 2018, 17:47 #110431

    Hi Cyril - recall Liverpool at Anfield. We won 2-1. Had we have been 5-0 down after 35 mins we couldn't have complained. Its amazing isnt it how Seasons happen for a team. Look at Leics. Fantastic, but they had so many helpful breaks across the Season it was unreal. Some of Vardys goals went in when on another moment in time, he would have missed by miles. As Napoleon said, i dont want great Generals, i want lucky ones. In fairness, across his 22 years i dont think Arsene had too many extended periods where the luck ran with him. 2003/4 it most certainly did though in my recollect. The lads have mentioned that Chelsea CL loss. I think the team by then were just knackered to be honest. Ran totally out of fuel in that 2nd half.

  63. Yes its Ron

    Jun 08, 2018, 17:30 #110430

    Baddie - true enough matey. Invincible means what you say by a simple black letter reading of the word, but we tend to give the word deeper meaning and that leads to best or not best debate etc etc doesn't it. They were invincible on that limited use of the word as you say though. Invincibility has connotations of supreme quality and ultimate best ever thoughts etc though and thats where the debate starts.Its not worth thinking it through and deeper than you say though, so you are right. As a point on the issue of 'favourite teams' , my fave Arsenal teams were actually Terry Neills teams. Madness? Certainly, but its a reflection of the most enjoyable period of following the club for me in my life personally so the word 'favourite' will provoke discussion of how could a team that never got close to a title be a fave team? Answer - because subjective factors and considerations make it that way for me and others no doubt. This is why the word invincible in context of 2004 will always create differences of view, none of which are indisputably correct. So, if all 'invincible' means is 'unbeaten in 38 games'its end of for many people. Unfortunately our own subjectively added additives to the word intervene.

  64. Exeter Ex

    Jun 08, 2018, 17:30 #110429

    GR - as I recall the Tinkerman made some halftime adjustment that started causing a lot of trouble down the wing, of course there was no accordant adjustment from our manager and that was it. Sign of what was to come. A devastating 45 mins. Gutting as the final loss two years later really given there wasn't much left in the competition, and looking back now with the realisation that's not going to be a possibility for a long time to come, that really was the time to win the Big Ears. Thankfully we had a leader then in Vieira to stop the league being botched up as well v Liverpool. Reminiscent of Adams after the Blackburn loss in late '97, sorting out the midfield. The importance of leaders - how could he disregard such stark lessons?

  65. Cyril

    Jun 08, 2018, 17:27 #110428

    Frank- great memories that year. We had a lot of fortune didn’t we. I went to work for Pompey Council in 2006 or so and they still remembered the Pires dive. To be fair, it was 90% dive and 10% can I poke you on the ankle on the way down. It was a blisteringly hot afternoon at our famous stadium. A baking day at 3 o clock in the clock end was only ever beaten by the cool air 745 kicks with the floodlights on in my opinion. Boy, do I miss that stadium. I recall Campbell having a stinker with Yukubu running him ragged. Ashley Cole was tremendous. His link up play with Dennis when he got forward was some sight. Vieira smooth as you like in possession. And where do you start with Dennis and Thierry. What a great side. Was meant to be, but we got a free pass that day.

  66. GoonerRon

    Jun 08, 2018, 17:00 #110427

    @ Exeter - couldn’t agree more re: the Chelsea defeat - absolutely sickening wasn’t it. The 2003/04 season will always be remembered for the invincibles (and I still think as a once-in-a-century occurrence it was probably my favourite team) but we could have had the quadruple that year. We would have been favourites for the the CL had we got past Chelsea and we lost in both SF’s in the domestic cups (I think we might have lost the Charity Shield on pens too!)

  67. Badarse

    Jun 08, 2018, 16:46 #110426

    Was he indelible? He felt it; that felt indelible too. It was time to accept and to take his medicine like the manboy he was, true it was a bitter pill but he just took it with a pinch of salt. That made it taste worse though. Then struggling in the dark he had a light bulb moment, he turned on the light. There on the mat sat the cat, but beside it was a script from an unnamed OG. he'd never heard of an OG before but had heard of their young kin, Oggi Oggi Oy Oy, get off me barrer! It was woeful. Full of utterings a bit like gutterings but without the 'Gee!' He carefully placed it back into the envelope which did a fine job of enveloping it, you might say it did it's job. He scribbled, Return to Sender', but as he hadn't used the 'Q' he believed he'd scrabbled it. At that juncture he made his way into the kitchen and cooked a scrabbled egg with Alphabetti Spaghetti, but that didn't have a 'Q' either because most people didn't queue for things like that.

  68. Exeter Ex

    Jun 08, 2018, 16:36 #110424

    Agree with the gist of a lot of comments that it makes more sense to talk of favourite teams rather than greatest teams. My favourite team of the Wenger era was the '98 team too, that had such a balance to it. Great to have that 0 in the defeats column of the table in '04 but that team actually lost 5 games that season, just none in the league. Agree with Ron you could see the first signs of the weaknesses that would take over as the club slowly lost influences other than Wenger's. That Chelsea defeat in the CL QF was one of the most gutting ever and in retrospect that season was the end of something, not the beginning. An ending that took 14 years to play out.

  69. Bard

    Jun 08, 2018, 15:52 #110423

    I think the question who is the best team is preposterous. Great teams, great players but you can never say who is/was the best because the circumstances and times are so different. My favourite teams of all time are the Pele, Garrincha Brazil and Hungary with the galloping major Pushkas. His roll back against Billy Wright when they thrashed Eng was so audacious given the kind of balls they used and the boots they wore. Used to know all their names and had many a game in the garden

  70. mbg

    Jun 08, 2018, 15:29 #110422

    And Leicester who done/won it on the cheap, something weng wang craved, was obsessed with, but was never able to do failing miserably, and leaving us where we are today far far from invincible.

  71. Badarse

    Jun 08, 2018, 15:18 #110421

    Afternoon Ron. It's a word, an accolade, an achievement; unbeaten is unbeaten, unbowed. It isn't a question of how good, bad, or indifferent. No need for comparisons, that's the ultimate argument against comparison. The team went the season undefeated in the League, they became Invincible. As to being a better side than any other Arsenal team as already stated it is academic. One person's choice may vary from another's for very good reasons, and be repudiated with an equally strong case. I prefer to deal in facts, again as previously intimated. I see that season as the culmination of what Arsenal stood for at that specific time and for all time those around can say, 'I lived through it.' See the winter break has been agreed for the season after next no need for Mesut to feign illness now.

  72. Yes its Ron

    Jun 08, 2018, 14:48 #110420

    GR - you make a great point there about the draws. For me, the invincible s weren't invincible enough. 26 wins wasn't enough to claim the accolade as i see it. The choice of name is just unfortunate isnt it. They were a fabulous team that Season and it ends there for me. Invincible? 12 teams said they weren't. I reckon our 98 team would have beaten them more than they would have lost and theres an argument that our 2002 team was better too? Just going unbeaten for a Season doesn't do it for me.Great to do it though and to have it on our CV.

  73. Yes its Ron

    Jun 08, 2018, 14:23 #110419

    I think its impossible to compare really lads. One tams from one era and another from another. It comes down to personal preference. For me, Utd s 99 team was the best PL team. If you wanted a team to win for you they were it for me. Less exciting maybe, but they had everything and were mentally more solid in my view. Having said this, Roy Keane in my view made that team what it was. Without him, they wouldn't have done what they did. Just going as far as PL teams is also limiting. Personally i think the Leeds Utd team of 70/71 and the Liverpool teams of 77-81 would have demolished our invincible s, but again who knows? different times. I really do think that many of the more apparent mental weaknesses that we became accustomed to in our teams after 2004 were actually evident in that 2004 team too. Sounds daft as they didnt lose a PL game but there were many games i saw where they were shaken and ragged in matches when under the hammer. We won games that really we should have lost. The stars and moons aligned that season to go unbeaten but thats football isnt it. I suppose im a bit anti becasue the teams and Wengers reaction to losing game No 50 sticks with me and always will. Arsenal were quite pathetic for 6 months after. Sulking like babies, non more so than the Coach just because they lost a game of bloody football! They gave it no perspective by failing to accept that a loss could have been far, far earlier. Fergies Utd teams in the same position wouldnt have been allowed to sulk. It would have been a case of lets do it again.

  74. Cheltenham Gunner

    Jun 08, 2018, 14:06 #110418

    Most Premier League winning teams lose 2/3 games a season, apart from Chelsea 04/05(thank gawd for Nic Anelka's pen v Chelsea in 04/05)! So for me it's the Invincibles all the way. Yes Man City broke all sorts of other records, but not the one that really mattered.

  75. Badarse

    Jun 08, 2018, 13:41 #110417

    Just wanted a bit of clarification for others, especially the younger ones who only have older heads to listen to, or not as the case may be. The Sours Double versus our first. The Sours had virtually sewn up the title if memory is correct by Easter as I went away with my parents then. By contrast our season was over 2 minutes from the end of the season when Ray scored at the Lane. Totts had no European commitments whereas we had four rounds, or was it three of 2-legged matches in the European Fairs we were defending. No League Cup existed in '61 for the big clubs whereas again we played 2-3 matches, 2 I think. In the FA Cup run we were drawn away in every round plus we played an extra replay, also extra time in the Final. So to the uninitiated our Double was absolutely amazing by contrast. Good old Arsenal.

  76. Moscowgooner

    Jun 08, 2018, 11:50 #110416

    I am not sure that popularity should come into it - we all know that the Spurs double team of 60/61 were more popular (by miles) that our double team of 70/71 - but I think our double had much more drama about it (60/61 was a dull procession) and finally was the greater achievement - against all odds. For me the Invincibles stand above the rest - there have been dozens of great footballing sides down the years - even in my time watching football, Liverpool, Leeds and Forest in the seventies and eighties stand out; if we're fair about it there have been great Chelsea and Man U teams as well in more recent times - but none of them went undefeated through a league season; a singular, unique, achievement. [OK - not quite unique, but Preston played only 22 league games - although to be fair they played 42 undefeated friendlies as well, some against impressive opposition!) I don't think the feat will ever be repeated; not in my lifetime anyway. If anyone was going to do it, it would have been City last season. So not only the Premiership's greatest team - but the greatest team in English league football, at least in the post War era.

  77. Big Andy

    Jun 08, 2018, 11:42 #110415

    This is like comparing apples with oranges. The PL 15 years ago was completely different to what it is today. One thing that both sides have in common is that they both flopped in Europe. For all the hype about City this season, they were well beaten in the CL by an average Liverpool side. The really great teams do it in Europe too.

  78. Badarse

    Jun 08, 2018, 9:46 #110414

    Here in a nutshell you have the convolutions of deciding 'the best', rather than the convolutions of the brain which is vital for the neurons, (wonder if our poster has Gooner neuRon's?). I learned many years ago to 'let it go', and never engage too seriously over 'the best' of anything. Though I will say that this government is the worst and most clueless in my adult lifetime in politics. So Don Howe apologies to you, but you can see how I was confused, many Labour supporters are quite right wing, aren't they? Political persuasions are all by degree, viewed from the extreme right even Ian Duncan Smith is a 'leftie'. JC to me is the freshest breath of air gusting through Westminster as far as I am concerned, but always looking for any sensible approach from any side of the House. I find the deliberation of 'the best' aimless and always inconclusive. Bergy or Titi? Biffo the Bear or Korky the Cat? See what I mean? Am collecting all my eggshells and will make a mosaic on my patio with caricatures of all the OG posters depicted. I just see it as a tribute to how important you all are.

  79. GoonerRon

    Jun 08, 2018, 9:11 #110413

    I think it’s really difficult to compare between the Citeh team and the invincibles. Citeh were up against a stronger top 6 sides than we were, yet they’ve spent nigh on a billion pounds to be better than them. We beat a juggernaut in Man U with a youth team graduate at LB, a £150k CB, a converted midfielder at RB, with a 37 year old and Pascal Cygan as back up CB’s. I actually think the fact we were unbeaten so deep into the season hindered our points total - we drew 5 of the last 9 games when the title was pretty much in the bag with the spectre of an unbeaten season on the horizon. Had we have lost a game earlier in the season there’s every chance we would have made 100 points ourselves.

  80. TonyEvans

    Jun 08, 2018, 9:09 #110412

    Always an interesting debate to be had on something like this. Biased obviously but it's The Invincibles for me, and also a mention for the 90/91 George Graham team that only lost one game, away at Chelsea. Another good argument to be had when you look at both those sides as to which players would make the first 11 in a combined 90/91 03/04 Arsenal team.

  81. markymark

    Jun 08, 2018, 8:34 #110410

    Frank - hard to disagree with your analysis . Fergies comments about drawing too much at the time always sounded a tad bitter. But then how could we see that in Wenger’s greatest triumph sowed the seeds for his demise. The man had the world at his finger tips and let it slip away. To UTD supporters the Invisibles are a mere footnote in history, much like Blackburn . The Invisibles are almost too painful to contemplate when one considers the stupid over 30 rule that Wenger imposed to break up he side Key