Knowing your place

And in today’s climate, Arsenal’s is fourth



Knowing your place

Wenger: Currently overachieving?


Football is, I am afraid, so much more about money today than it ever was, and he with the deepest pockets will eventually need to buy silver polish. Now my question is, what is the financial sense of becoming champions on a cost-return basis?

As champions, you can sell more shirts to kids and glory-hunters, Barclays give you a few quid more and demand for tickets to a generally sold-out stadium goes up. So, apart from bragging rights, a pennant on the stadium and memories, some priceless, the returns are not great. Contrast this against the likely costs needed to buy sufficient players to secure that championship, and the wage-increase needed for them and the existing squad, it would seem like investing £50 to get £2 back and anyone who does it is on a vanity project.

In the decade before Mourinho, Arsenal were champions three times to United’s six, with the Blackburn one-off making up the numbers. That makes us the second-best team over that decade, and they were great times. Now that we have petro-funded City and Chelsea on vanity projects, we have descended to fourth as the last of the CL-money-spinning places is now seen as glory.

Granted that United are skint, and Chelsea have issues, there is scope, but we shouldn’t be expectant. Seven years is only a long time if you are under 20 and know little else, yet it is interesting to see the team now free from pot-winning playing great carefree football to ensure they reach their natural place again.

Yet while our recent turnaround started with the Spuds, it’s equally true that they should find their true level, which, with great honesty and minimal gloating, is somewhere below us in the pecking order. For Arsenal this season, the achievement will be to finish above a petro-funded club, or ideally both of them, while the possibility of Spurs finishing above Arsenal is really not acceptable for any number of reasons, including wages spent and expectations. All newly-promoted clubs can float at varying levels of competence in their initial seasons, but will eventually find a level of comfort and acceptability for costs along with the more established members of the league, who do what is required to maintain expectations. In today’s world of work, exceptional performance by players only brings raised expectations from fans and offers no significant financial upside bar a transfer or a new contract, and there is plenty of evidence of players only upping their game at negotiation time.

In short, the Arsenal are more than good enough to be fourth; anything more than that is a bonus and this will continue until the petros lose interest. Hopefully, by then, United will make Rangers look solvent and we can get the dynasty going that 89\91 threatened. As the Guinness ads say, "Good things come to those who wait".


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60
comments

  1. Moscow Gooner

    Mar 29, 2012, 20:27 #20727

    We have (consistently) the second highest average attendance in the league, the highest ticket prices (I believe) not just in the EPL but in the world, we are based in the second largest financial centre in the world, the richest city in Europe and apparently fourth place in the league is our natural ranking??! This is a perfect shield for the rank bad management of the commercial side of the club - poor sponsorship deals, pre season friendlies building up our fan base in the Austrian Tirol etc etc. And generally our players have underperformed when it mattered over the past seven years - the League Cup Final versus Birmingham, the game in the San Siro, the cup tie at Sunderland, the 2-8 at OT - just being recent examples. This is not a matter of finances but more a matter of how you set up the team, how you manage and motivate the team. After all in 1970/71 we won the double when Arsenal probably ranked seventh or eighth in terms of the richest English clubs - and behind Spurs and Chelsea even within London. The recent run of form is great - but we ve seen too many similar runs end in tears over the past seven years. Sadly I don t think we ll see Arsenal lift another trophy under AW.

  2. CT Gooner

    Mar 29, 2012, 16:29 #20716

    It seems that we want to measure our performance against that of others, while I'd argue we should be measuring our performance against clearly articulated realistic goals, based on building from year to year. We should aim to get the most we can from the budget we have. In that aspect I feel both the board and Mr Wenger have failed. So, I think it's time for us all to stop the petty bickering of how and why our trophy cabinet is bare, and define your own yard stick to measure the teams performance on next year. I liked Canada's a couple of months back, top 4 finish and 1 trophy, anything less and Mr Wenger should do the honorable thing.

  3. ATID

    Mar 29, 2012, 13:53 #20709

    No, no, no. Don't fall for the myth that the biggest spending clubs always come out top. It is simply not true. Yes you need quality but ultimately uccess in football is also about team work, passion, a never say die attitude and sometimes luck. Our wage bill is quite big enough to support a team of winners. Wenger just didn't sign the right players. If you think third of fourth place is acceptable why bother competing in a league? Good things come to those who wait? You must be having a laugh. Good things come to those who make the right decisions and work their balls off. Was the failure to make any quality signings before this season began a good decision? Was missing the oppurtunity to strengthen the squad in January a good decision? Was the policy of giving mediocre players like Bendtner five year contracts a good decision? I could go on but unlike Wenger I know when to quit.

  4. Gee

    Mar 29, 2012, 13:33 #20708

    The issue I have is that Wenger has not gone the extra mile on a player even though the resources were available. Mata and Alonso spring to mind instantly and I imagine there are others. Sitting on oodles of cash when we needed players at times eventually led to our downfall. That we employed Arshavin up front for months at let January go without buying anyone was a disgrace. Wenger has done well with the funds he's had but he now seems reluctant to spend the market value

  5. Chris

    Mar 29, 2012, 9:12 #20697

    @ Par for the course - you are mistaken. In 2010 Arsenal's wage bill was 5th highest in Prem. Liverpool's 2011 figures not released but Arsenal at least 4th, poss 5th highest in 2011. So 5th is natural position. More to the point - how do we afford these huge wages? Because Wenger's managerial excellence has allowed revenue increase a) through the move to Ashburton Grove and b)through profitable transfer dealings. Without Wenger, we'd be way down the pecking order at the moment because we wouldn't have the funds to compete. That's not to say he's perfect - far from it! - but over all, he's vital to our (relative) success.

  6. mark from aylesbury

    Mar 29, 2012, 8:43 #20696

    Canada, we will have to agree to disagree on this. Dont you think that the original pathetic offer that Wenger made for Cahi, so peeing off Coyle might just have an effect. In a way you are right Chelsea would have more appeal as we made ourselves out to be cheapskates. But this is of our own making. Arsenal have the allure and history to appeal to players who want to live the London life. To much power in Wengers hands he needs some good staff around him.

  7. Simon

    Mar 29, 2012, 6:43 #20694

    And Utd's wage bill is 3rd highest but they dont settle for 3rd!!!!

  8. simon

    Mar 28, 2012, 22:59 #20693

    par your not mistaken. arsenal wages this season are close on 140m, spurs 90m, liverpool unknown but last time was 110m. Also spurs spent 5m in the summer, we spent 75m. My take is the game now versus the 90's say is more about squads ie 20 good players not just 12 partly because of the extra international football and CL games that seem to be paid and part due to the intensity of our game in the UK. That is why the places tend to match the money available and why spurs arguably only broke in because they threw the europa and CC and borrowed a 25m striker from city for free whilst arsenal (early season) and chelsea (up to now) have massively under performed...

  9. Par for the course?

    Mar 28, 2012, 19:22 #20691

    Unless I'm mistaken - Arsenal's wage bill is 4th highest in the PL. Therefore 4th placed would be their 'natural' position.

  10. CanadaGooner

    Mar 28, 2012, 16:27 #20689

    @ lee afc. thanks mate. I will be coming home to watch our home games agianst Chelsea and Norwich, so, get my pint ready.

  11. CanadaGooner

    Mar 28, 2012, 16:15 #20688

    @ Paul Heaton; fair enough. @Mark from aylesbury: mate, the same crowd here moaned when we didnt offer more for Cahill, only for Chelsea to pick him up a few months later for the same price. If you look at all the other over-priced british players we were being told on here to buy: jagielka.... (I also recall the clamour for wenger to go and pay much more for Samba, who doesnt fall in the over-priced brit category, but eventually left for russia for around what wenger wanted to pay for him). I think it's football and the crazy prices that needs to be reviewed, and not what arsenal offers. Torres at $50m, carroll at $35m (would you rather have bought 3 Theiry Henry's?).

  12. David Stewart

    Mar 28, 2012, 13:48 #20685

    Paul Heaton – With respect, I don’t think you can argue that Arsene has been given more leeway than previous managers because you are not comparing like with like. Of those managers mentions in my previous comment (Don Howe, Terry Neill, Billy Wright, George Swindin, Jack Crayston, Leslie Knighton etc, etc) they did not compete at the same consistently high level that Arsene has over the last 7 seasons. Their records were far, far inferior. Even the Arsenal ‘greats’ Chapman, Allison(I accept the war interfered with his record), Whittaker & Mee did not achieve the consistent heights Arsene has delivered. Indeed, Wenger has achieved this against what is increasingly becoming a more uneven playing field.

  13. Ron

    Mar 28, 2012, 13:40 #20684

    Some truth in this, but your wrong. Arsenal arent a 'we can get 4th and be happy' Club at all. Its an insult to suggest we are based on SKY doping of people who maybe never knew about football before 1992. Put aside AWs fault lines, he was very close to at least 2 titles since the 04 win, we ve been in a CL Final, 2 CC Finals and various semis in the so called wilderness 7 years. CL EVERY season as well. We ve all had a go at him and rightly so, some have shouted for him to go. The truth is that if hed have won say an FAC in the wilderness years, there would be little debate over his tenure. If say a CC had also been bagged, there would be no debate. Its a thin divide between success and 'failure' and whatever is said AW hasnt failed for 7 years. 'Failure' would have been perma mid table, no CL and not near close to a title. Hes made decisiions on players who arent of the right mettle and type, hes paid too many too much, hes shown too much loyalty to donkeys like Bendntner and Denny et all. Sure he has. We all know that. Arsenal is a Club though envied in that Premier League and maybe in the World and we cant deny it. To do so is ignorance. The Club and Arsene have driven me potty this Season like no other. Mistakes have abounded. No question. Hes still more or less put it right though and hes going nowhere. A few good buys and next Season has a good feel about it subject to deadwood being shipped out at long last. Arsenal are the 3rd most decorated Club in the land. As a Club theyre superior to Man U and Liverpool in my view, (certainly Liverpool who are now music hall joke material and have been for years). Titles will come to Arsenal again and maybe soon too whtever we think. The truth is none of us do know much abaout football and how it works, we just spout off frustration. Its a good job the Club doesnt listen otherwise we d all know what real failure was! As result of that ground move and the spending restraints, many bossees would have walked, inc your Maureens and Redknapps (hes not a top calibre boss anyway). Years from now, people will hail what Wenger has done in these formative post ground move years while 'AN Other' takes the plaudits for winning trophies again, no trophies and all. To have genuinely screwed up these years Arsenal could have become a statistic. All in saying is that the years seeing Utd and Cheslea deal out the trophies gall but in many ways their 'success' is tinnged with failure anyway, crtainly Chelsea. Look at them now and in truth what have they done to justify the cash spent on that mental project at the Meccano Stadium?

  14. mark from aylesbury

    Mar 28, 2012, 12:05 #20680

    Canada your issues about lack of allure I feel need scrutiny. Denis Law wanted to join Arsenal, the Hillwoods wouldnt stump up the cash. We let Brady go for peanuts. More recently we screwed up with Manu's Ronaldo, plenty of stories of mishandling transfer targets. If anything Chelsea have a problem with allure. I wonder if we stopped pissing of other clubs with stupid offers and made them in plenty of time how much more we would achieve.

  15. Judge Fred

    Mar 28, 2012, 11:09 #20677

    "Good thing comes to those who wait", but do good things come to those who pay £1300 for a season ticket? 'Waiting' I can handle, being fleeced year upon year for no tangible return, I am struggling to accept.

  16. Chris McGivern

    Mar 28, 2012, 9:21 #20674

    The problem as I see it is the deadwood situation, too much money wasted on players that aren't good enough and certainly aren't cheap! did we really have to endure Diaby/ Denilson over a scotty Parker, don't get me wrong Parker isn't the answer to our problems but he would have been a far better bet than those 2 over the past few years. Rosicky is playing fantastically of late just when it was time for a contract renewal! I wonder if he will settle down to his usual level for us? Wenger is still a fantastic manager - Look at Ox, Wilshere. Just have to ask what happened over the past few years? I suspect we will never find out the truth

  17. Arsene is a liar

    Mar 28, 2012, 9:05 #20673

    The article basically says that we should wait until all other teams lose their interest in winning the league and tell us "Here you go, win it now".

  18. Mike

    Mar 28, 2012, 8:39 #20672

    After reading some comments on this page, I now understand why there is a credit crunch - were it not for the sale of Nasri and Fabregas, the club would have made a loss - that is not sustainable, unless you are willing to have someone inject his own money into the club -

  19. Charlie Charlie

    Mar 28, 2012, 8:32 #20671

    Gary - you are talking about the Pre Roman and Pre Sheikh days. The world has since changed. Get used to it!

  20. Gary

    Mar 28, 2012, 6:48 #20669

    Between 1998 and 2005 we played in a stadium with a capacity of 38,000 and we used to win titles above United who had a 70,000 stadium.We competed then didnt we we?The truth is Wenger has lost it in the last 7 years with his mad project

  21. Van de Ed

    Mar 28, 2012, 1:45 #20668

    Until the Emirates is completely paid off, and to stay the right side of FFP rules, Arsenal need to keep doing the following; keep wages in check (no superstar new signings), qualify for Champions League yearly (hence finish in top 4) and occasionally sell some players for profit to stay in the black. In the meantime, knowing we're very unlikely to win the Champs lge with Barca, Madrid etc as they are, we should focus on bagging at least 1 domestic trophy (out of 3) every other year at a bare minimum. I definitely don't think this is too much to ask given our current constraints and quality in our team!!

  22. In the interests of fairness and getting one's facts straight

    Mar 27, 2012, 23:40 #20667

    I think someone needs to point out that Leeds won the title in 1992.

  23. Paul Heaton

    Mar 27, 2012, 22:55 #20665

    Canada Gooner @ 17.27 You are quite right, nobody has achieved that and it's a measure of remarkable consistency. However it's not really comparing like with like is it ? It's only in the last dozen or so years that finishing 4th has been a much bigger prize than finishing 5th. Once upon a time it was about qualifying for Europe which often seemed to require only a top 6 or 7 finish and before European football there was 1st place and then everything down to the relegation zone didn't really matter. Just as you aren't blind to Wenger's faults I am not blind to his qualities and it does finally feel that we are moving forward. My fear, and it's obviously shared by many on here, is that we've been here before in the last few years and time and again Wenger has (mis)placed trust in those that don't deserve it. I'm just trying to point out that an awful lot of faith and patience has already been placed in him during this spell and that cannot, and should not, last for very much longer. Getting in the top 4 should be a means to an end - building the club and improving the team - not the end itself.

  24. lee afc

    Mar 27, 2012, 21:20 #20663

    CANADA GOONER...posted 4th March 2012..'smash and grab'...'Arsenal will be ahead of spurs after the coming 4 games...feel free to quote me on that'...I owe you a drink my friend. I am just posting your comments which were stated 3 weeks ago when we were miles off 3rd place. If only everybody had your positiveness, and energy for the gooners. good on yer mate.

  25. GoonerRon

    Mar 27, 2012, 21:09 #20662

    @ Whinger_OUT_NOW - it's quite easy to highlight some signings as you've done to prove a point. Wenger bought Vermaelen, Sagna, Ramsey, RVP and Arteta combined for the price of Berbatov. Now I'm not for a minute saying that we haven't missed significant opportunities to win a trophy in the last 7 years and much of this is down to the manager, lack of leadership on the pitch, poor decision making on the pitch etc. I personally struggle, however, to rationalise what success looks like these days. Of the two teams above us one has the greatest club manager of all time, significant commercial and footballing pulling power and higher spend on wages and transfers, whilst the other has spent HALF A BILLION POUNDS more than us on transfers in the last 6 years. Additionally, two teams beneath us have higher wage bills and every single team that have continuously been in the EPL since 2006 have a higher net spend over the period than us. Now, I'm not saying we should roll over, die and stop trying but in the above context I honestly believe that somewhere in there we have overachieved.

  26. CanadaGooner

    Mar 27, 2012, 20:30 #20660

    Whinger_Out_Now; sometimes your comments BAFFLE me. 60% of the time you make very good points and then suddenly you pop of with some of the most bizarre of arguments. You forget that most footballers would want to play for Man Utd or Liverpool traditionally because of their history. Arsenal hasnt got that kind of lure. And it's all well and good focusing on what Man Utd spent this season: you build a foundation in football on successes and Man Utd spent millions buying the most expensive players around e.g. ronaldo, rooney, berbatov, tevez and any other player they fancied. Arsenal have NEVER been in a position where we can just grab whiever player we want. We're only where we are because we have been stringent over the years and have continued to develop average players into superstars. Yes, it's time to move with the times and do a little bit more than that, to win trophies; but I am very proud of Arsenal's achievements to date given the circumstances, and it riles to read the kinds of nonsense that ill-informed folks post on here sometimes. You're better than that Whinger_Out, so, get real matey

  27. kirsty lawrie

    Mar 27, 2012, 20:27 #20659

    hi im eds daughter if you want more of thease articals please give more coments.

  28. David

    Mar 27, 2012, 19:26 #20658

    The same old rubbish spouted out by the AKB's.We cant compete against the likes of City, Utd and Chelsea they cry.They spend more and pay more in wages than us.But how can Utd compete with City and how can the Spuds compete with us when there is a huge difference in the respective wage bills.In 89 and 91 we couldnt compete with Liverool finacially but we destroyed the Liverpool dynasty.Between 98-05 we couldnt compete with Utd finacially but we stood toe to toe with them.To hide behide the excuse of we dont have the money doesnt wash.The Spuds spent a total of £5m this summer

  29. Charlie Charlie

    Mar 27, 2012, 19:18 #20657

    A good article. Sadly more and more, where you finish in the league depends upon your spending power. I don't like it. It is ruining competition in football but there is bugger all you can do about. The FIFA financial fair play rules are supposed to counter the influence of the sugar daddies but we all know that they will find ways around this. Meanwhile, we moved stadium to keep us competitive and thank god that we did otherwise we might be just another mid table team such as Everton - well regarded but season over before it starts. What can Wenger do? Not much different I venture. If he fancies an established star that so many bloggers want him to buy, he will simply be outbid either in the transfer fee or wages as with Mata recently. He therefore has to try and buy lessers known players with potential or promising youngsters such as the Ox and hope that they give him more loyalty than other acquisitions in recent years. Having said that, I still believe we will win the league again soon because occasional seasons we will exceed our potential and other teams will fail to live up theirs. Swansea over achieving this year is a very good example of what can happen. Meanwhile, the quality of football is good again at the moment and I look forward to more Champions League footie again next season. Up the Arse!

  30. Zurich Gooner

    Mar 27, 2012, 19:13 #20656

    Expenditure is important, but i also think squad management is the key here. As has been mentioned, Ferguson seems to be able to maintain a hungry, mentally strong and driven squad, whilst if you look at Chelsea - who over a similar period have certainly spent more than us and probably Man Utd - this season the squad is stale, self interested and tired. Wenger, over the last seven years clearly hasnt "managed" or bred a winning and driven squad. Be it through the additions he has made or through the atmosphere amongst the squad they, and by extension he, has consistently come up short. Despite his unflinching belief and support for his players it just seems, albeit from the outside, to be a bit too easy and "soft" to be be part of the first team squad. So whilst I agree that in a petro dollar driven league its very important how much you are spending, and Wenger deserves great credit for the balance sheet gains, Wenger´s management of the type of squad he has - albeit one which is influenced by how competitive he is in the transfer market - should rightly be questioned...

  31. mark

    Mar 27, 2012, 19:01 #20655

    When Abramovich told over Chelsea only one team stood up to them that was United.While they didnt have the Russians spending power they had Fergie.Now its the turn of the Arab rich City to trample over everyone in the premiership.All except one team United again.United cannot compete finacially against City and Chelsea but look at the trophies they have won.Compare Utd's wage bill to Citys.Its not all down to who is the richest.And look what has happened to us since Abramovich arrived we have laid down and died and excepted 3rd or 4th is the best we can hope for.While fleecing the fans with the highest ticket prices in the world

  32. Wenger is a fraud

    Mar 27, 2012, 18:38 #20654

    By your reckoning Utd should be behind City and Chelsea then.Would Man Utd give the likes of Almunia Denilson Bendtner Vela Chamakh Rosicky(before his 4 game return to form) and worst of all Diaby wages of over £50k a week? Utd are on the verge of winning their 5th title in 6 years.They have a manager who rewards players that are worth it ie Rooney while the others have to earn contracts we reward players who would struggle to get in a championship side.A recent example the useless Djourou given a new contract.In 2008 and 2010 we should have been champions but our arrogant manager refused to spend in the january transfer windows.Ask yourself this if Wenger was Man Utd's manager would they win the league?of course they wouldnt.And would Arsenal win the title if Fergie was our manager?.This is the worst Utd team under Fergie but they are 15pts ahead of us.Its all down to good management

  33. Whinger_OUT_NOW

    Mar 27, 2012, 18:21 #20653

    Canadagooner, you conveniently forget that only since Citeh project started that Arsenal's fourth place has been in serious jeopardy. Till 2004, the EPL was a 2 horse race, so there is nothing great in finishing top 4 then. After that, Chavski displaced the great Wenger's team to 3rd and 4th but due to the upheaval at Pool, Wenger managed to finish fourth though he made it by the skin of his teeth 2-3 seasons ago when Spudz blew their chance. In other words, he has been top 4 in a 2 horse race, then 3 horse and now 4. Where's the extraordinary amount of glory in that? I'll tell you what's glory - witness how ManYoo are in with a serious shout at the title. They spent very little this season, had constant injury issues with several key players STILL out, had a brand new goalkeeper. All of these have always been excuses to excuse Whinger. Yet, where is ManYoo? That's right...en route to a third consecutive title. Had Whinger been in his position and took his team to fourth instead of the title, AKB's would have been spouting nonsense about how great Whinger is. Why, some of you pathetic lot are more excited about fourth place finish than ManYoo fans are about a possible title. Says it all really.

  34. CanadaGooner

    Mar 27, 2012, 17:27 #20652

    Paul Heaton; has there been any previous Arsenal manager that has finished in the top 4 for 16 consecutive years? (or any other manager in the premiership (besides Fergie) for that matter? I am not a Wenger-apologist and like most fans, have been very critical of his stubborness and our trophy drought; but I like to temper my criticism with a little bit of reality. Most clubs in the premiership (with the exception of Man Utd) can only dream of the type of football we see week in week out and our position in the league. Yes, fans have been very patient and 7 years is a very long time indeed, not to have won anything, but for once, there may be a slight glimmer of hope. If we can buy 3 or 4 more capable players this summer and offload 4 or 5 of the donkeys we currently have

  35. Paul Heaton

    Mar 27, 2012, 17:14 #20651

    David Stewart @ 14.48 - You're right, I'm certainly not trying to make that argument ! What I was trying to say is that for all the lauding of Wenger - which is much deserved for the first half of his tenure - he has actually been given more leeway for his lack of tangible success than any previous Arsenal manager. Whilst that is obviously down to the fact that he has been successful in the past it does make you wonder what constitutes 'success' at Arsenal now. As other have suggested here I suspect that it's nothing more than a strong balance sheet.

  36. CanadaGooner

    Mar 27, 2012, 16:40 #20650

    good article mate. For anyone saying anything about Swansea; were Bolton not in 4th position for large spells of last season? and were some of you not lapping around like dogs about how Owen Coyle is a better manager than Wenger?: WHERE ARE BOLTON NOW? what it takes to be consistent in the premiership can be explained to you by Reading, West Ham, Southampton and others like Leeds before them. For a manager to have spent 16 consecutive years in the top 4, won it 3 times + some other trophies along the way, on the money he's spent on players is nothing short of a miracle. The fact of the matter is that with a few tweaks here and there the 3 titles could have been 6 or 7 and we neednt have gone the last 7 years without a trophy but the man believed in a theory and I give him credit for that. If he accepts that theory has failed and will continue to fail as far as winning trophies go, and gets to more reinforcement as he's done in bringing the likes of Arteta in, then YES, he will return the club back to winning ways. A lot of the arguments against Wenger are very short-sighted and no doubt come from fairweather fans who have only been around during the wonder years of spending little and winning trophies. The crazy-spenders (Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea and Liverpool) have changed all that, and if we cant match their spending, we return to cunning, and so far so good on that scorecard. No trophies but 16 points or so ahead of Liverpool after their 100million spend, ahead of chelsea and spurs...... I can guarantee you, it hurts their souls

  37. Jekyll

    Mar 27, 2012, 16:28 #20649

    Gare, you're right, it is all about money at AFC these days. And judging from some of the other comments here, it has become so for a lot of fans as well. Presumably these are either current or former shareholders who have personally profited from the club's near exclusive focus on profit making.

  38. Whinger_OUT_NOW

    Mar 27, 2012, 15:58 #20648

    GoonerRon, while ManYoo invested in the odd Evra, Vidic, Van der Sar, Rooney, Ronaldo, Hernandez etc. Whinger chose to invest in Clichy, Almunia, Fabianski, Squilacci, Silvestre, Denilson, Song,Diaby, Chamakh, Vela etc. by paying them silly wages. So ManYoo spent 51M, to use your own figure, since 2006 and what have they to show for it? A few titles, a CL, an FA cup and now the possibility of a historic third back to back title. What does Whinger have to show for his investments other than the mythical fourth place trophy?

  39. Joe Fitzpatrick

    Mar 27, 2012, 15:57 #20647

    RJ- my point is that Swansea have beaten teams that have vastly superior resources (such as us and Man city) and are firmly mid table in their first season in the premiership. They achieved this through great tactics and whole load of grit and determination.

  40. Gare Kekeke

    Mar 27, 2012, 15:16 #20646

    The problem at The Arsenal is that’s it’s all about money, everything else is secondary and that includes a competitive team that can win the odd trophy. Funny how little is mentioned that when we generated less income at Highbury under Wenger we had a team that was at least on par with Man Utd. True, no-one could envisage the financial boost of Chelsea & Manchester City in recent years but there are ways to get around it. Instead, we have foolishly played the paupers tag particularly since the 2006 stadium move and funny how Wenger is the only manager in Europe to complain about them but says nothing about the PSG project. To an extent, we have been financially hamstrung, but that’s because of the piss poor sponsorship deals set up by former MD Keith Edelman (and we all knew at the time they were poor) and the worryingly increasing wage bill (by all accounts this season it will be at least £130m). We just about break-even of the financial side but the profits mainly come from player sales. Everton have very little money to play with but they get on with it despite having Liverpool literally across the park and the two Manchester clubs across the East Lancs Road. Wenger has said himself that we have to be the European Cup annually to pay the wages of the players (can we also mention other staff members at the club too). So does that mean winning it should be frowned upon? And does it also explain why his record in the competition is average? Money spent should be seen the overriding factor of success although it is key. Mourinho (much as I loathe him) had proved that good coaching as well as money spent can get you far as he proved in his brief stint at FC Porto (and yes that Porto team could cheat too!), although I accept that he has used the massive financial clout post-Porto to add to his trophy haul. And remember with Man Utd, post-Glazer takeover in 2005, they have won amongst others 4 league titles (my prediction is that they will a 5th at the Etihad next month) and a European Cup as well reaching two further finals and like us have significantly reduced their debt. Please remind me once again why we had to move to another stadium. Still, up The Gunners!

  41. GoonerRon

    Mar 27, 2012, 15:15 #20645

    @ Joe Fitzpatrick - Man U's net transfer spend since 2006 is around £51m and we have a net gain of around £31m over the same period, so +£82m in total. I've only got wage bill numbers for the five seasons up to 2009/10 and their total incremental spend on wages in those 5 seasons is £65.5m. Therefore the overall figure is more like £148m.

  42. Will

    Mar 27, 2012, 14:52 #20644

    I have changed my thinking about this topic. From one perspective its true but buying into it blinds us to the serious misjudgemnts, errors and inconsistencies at the club. We should have won more even with a limited budget. We didn't because we have been weak mentally,Wenger has refused to buy decent defenders/goalkeeper at times BUT happily spends £16m+ on Arshavin ?( Although of course we're broke)Our defence has been weak for years and he seems unable or unwilling to do something about it.Without RVP's sublime form we wouldn't be anywhere near 3/4th.So yes money is crucial but its galling to see Man U ( surely the worst Man U side in years )battling for the title. We've rarely shown such bottle on a consistent basis for years. It's all a bit smoke and mirrors. A top 3 finish might just convince Wenger that he has been right all along and therefore no change is needed and that would be a disaster.

  43. David Stewart

    Mar 27, 2012, 14:48 #20643

    Paul Heaton – interesting argument, albeit not one that really stands up to any rational scrutiny. Indeed, if you follow your line of argument you will find that Don Howe, Terry Neill, Billy Wright, George Swindin, Jack Crayston, Leslie Knighton etc, etc were more ‘successful’ than Arsene because they won no trophies in less than 7 years. And I’m sure you’re not trying to make that argument! The quote of Ed Lawrie should, in my opinion, actually read “Seven years is only a long time if you are under 30 and know little else”.

  44. Graham Simons, Gooner

    Mar 27, 2012, 14:47 #20642

    If fourth place is our rightful position, can you explain why our fans don't pay the fourth highest ticket prices in the league and have a manager that is paid the fourth highest sum for his services? In 1989 we pegged a Liverpool team back that had far outstripped our spending in the market. When you wear that red and white doing what is expected of you is not enough you must excel - it's what the southern club that upset the North's dominance of the English game was built on.

  45. Chris

    Mar 27, 2012, 14:44 #20641

    In 2010, Liverpool's wage bill was bigger than Arsenal's. If that stayed the same last year (I haven't seen their figures yet - do't think they are lreased), in 2011 Arsenal's wage bill would have been fifth highest in the Prem (after Man C, Man U, Chelski and Liverpool). Over the past five years, the cost (in terms of wages + net spend) of each premiership point gained by those four teams was also greater than Arsenal's. Arsenal's was about the same as Tottenham's - but of course that same money also bought massively more European success (CL points / progress) for us :-) Other than by assessing trophies (which isn't reasonable becuase the first-past-the-post nature means only one team 'scores' for each one) Wenger's Arsenal are, in the last five years, without doubt the most efficient top PL team at turning money into sporting success - FACT. Anyone who says otherwise can be proved wrong. We lose Wenger - we lose. Simple as.

  46. RJ

    Mar 27, 2012, 14:42 #20640

    Joe Fitzpatrick - Swansea have played some nice football - but with respcet have not won anything (unless you include FAW Cup - which I reckon I could win with my mates if we entered, or League One Winners in 06-07 was it? Personally, I would rather be 4th in Prem than get demoted twice to win something. The point being they have punched above their weight for 75% of one season. Arsenal have been consistenly there or thereabouts - we will need luck in the current financial climate to compete for the league again - but Swansea would need a f*** of a lot more luck - as would Tottenham.

  47. johnnyhawleylovinggooner

    Mar 27, 2012, 14:38 #20639

    is the new ground not a trophy ? it has been a very good 7 years on the money side of the team. however the last summer transfer window situ must never happen again.we are still owed the football replacement for the players who left last summer. that is why we are where we are

  48. Mike

    Mar 27, 2012, 14:20 #20638

    I think the general gist of the article is accurate. We have no divine right to expect to win the p/l. Those of us that supported the move to the Emirates,- remember that idea (and revenue flow projection) was concieved pre-Abramovitch et al - can still see the outstanding results Arsenal FC have achieved with this strategy. The goalposts got moved in 2003 and continue to be. We had a long term strategy which we can't just abandon without harming the Club. Our results a in the mean time are perfectly acceptable and as time goes on, we'll get stronger and stronger financially. I'll wait for the Guiness, coz when it arrives, it'll be a keg. Long live Arsene - who is definitely not perfect !!! - but it could be worse (see Redknapp Harry, Portsmouth, Southampton, West Ham - 2 relegations, 2 quit, 1 League cup, 1 FA Cup, 1 c/l qualifcation - outstanding !!!)

  49. Andrew Cohen

    Mar 27, 2012, 14:17 #20637

    @Paul Heaton. Whilst of course all that you say is pertinent and accurate, the club has ammassed some degree of financial strength. The question is now how we use that strength. Our wage bill at £125-150 million is more than strong enough to pay motivated individuals of sufficient talent to get where we want to go. Ferguson, Mourinho or Brian Clough would get us there tactically because none of those would ignore the realities of the english league. In a long war you have to have fighting spirit, good tactics, a proper strategy, sound logistics, and sufficient material resources. The adjustments which we need to win regularly can be made and imposed by a strong and persuasive board. Put simply, we aren't that far away. We just need to do a series of sensible things rather than persist with some bonkers ones.

  50. maguiresbridge gooner

    Mar 27, 2012, 13:53 #20635

    If man u are skint they're about to be the first skint team to win the prem league again.We shouldn't be expectant ??? ( i really thought i'd heard it all)the very least we should expect is challenging for silver ware every season I would have thought actually winning something would be a bonus you'd be happy with fourth while waiting for man u to go burst (like you say united are skint but they're about to win the prem so it's not going to make much difference) and the petros to lose interest well we could be waiting quite a while how about seven more years.

  51. Jimmy

    Mar 27, 2012, 13:23 #20634

    Interesting piece. It does help to highlight the best and worst of Wenger though. If we removed the wages of all the deadwood we've had in the squad over the last few years (I won't name them as we all know who they are), then we would probably only be the 5th or 6th highest spenders in the division so he has definitely managed to overachieve on that basis. HOWEVER, if he wasn't so damned stubborn and obsessed with his vanity youth project, we could have spent those same wages on one or two better quality players who would have propelled us above the likes of United, Chelsea and City and given us one or two titles. There have been signs that Arsene is changing his philosophy a little when it comes to ow much patience he shows under-performing players as demonstrated by shofting Arshavin out and perhaps this has also proved to be the motivation for the likes of Rosicky to knuckle down and show his true ability. Let's hope so.

  52. Joe Fitzpatrick

    Mar 27, 2012, 13:20 #20633

    GoonerRon- is that net spend? If those figures are correct and Man united have spent £187 million more than us (net) over the last 7 seasons then I will be very suprised.

  53. Paul Heaton

    Mar 27, 2012, 13:02 #20632

    "Seven years is only a long time if you are under 20 and know little else". Actually, 7 years is the longest period of time that Arsenal have ever gone without winning a trophy under any one manager. People talk about Wenger being Arsenal's most successful manager ever and if you judge purely on the number of trophies won that's true (though for me George Graham's 6 trophies in nearly 9 seasons is a much better record than Wenger's 7 trophies in nearly 16). However, assuming that he is still manager at the start of next season Wenger will also have presided over the longest trophyless period by any single manager in our history. 2 sides to every story and all that.... Also, whilst I accept that nobody could have foreseen the way things have gone at Chelsea & Man City, weren't we told over and over again that we had to "leave Highbury in order to compete with the likes of Manchester United". To now say that it's only natural that they finish above us is nonsense. We used to go toe to toe with United every year but now, with our greater resources, somehow we're miles behind them. Like Wenger you seem to have looked at the "financial doping" happening elsewhere, shrugged your shoulders and given up.

  54. GoonerRon

    Mar 27, 2012, 12:35 #20631

    @ Joe Fitzpatrick. Based on some figures I've seen Man U's net transfer spend is around £82m more than ours in the last 7 years. Their wage bill is typically £15-22m per year higher than ours so taking the lower of those values for 7 years gives another £105m, making the overall outlay around £187m more than ours in that period. If you also consider how our net debt has significantly reduced since we built The Emirates and how much money has flowed out of Man U in interest payments in the same period it does make interesting reading, albeit with my basic grasp of the numbers. I must say, I agree with the author in most of what he says on this. I currently struggle to reconcile what success looks like in the current climate. We all want Arsenal to win the title but with figures like those listed above, plus you add in Man City's net spend which is nearly half a billion more than ours in recent years will a third place finish actually be 'failure?'

  55. kilkenny cat

    Mar 27, 2012, 12:31 #20630

    If its not acceptable at scum utd,why is it acceptable at Arsenal. We need to think like a big club, not a spurs or a chelsea

  56. Tony Evans

    Mar 27, 2012, 12:30 #20629

    Wenger would no doubt agree with this but I strongly feel that we could have been champions at least once during the last seven trophyless seasons. Credit to Wenger for keeping us top four but strongly critical of him for not sorting out so many glaringly obvious defensive faults and for keeping too many crap players on the books and paying them far too much money. After the great run we have been on since the Spuds game and also after reading rumours about a top quality holding midfielder coming in plus Podolski I would like to be able to look forward to next season with some genuine hope but there is always that nagging doubt now with Wenger. We still have issues with lack of cover in goal and how many times have all the rumours come to nothing?

  57. Jekyll

    Mar 27, 2012, 12:21 #20628

    These are the sort of noises we hear coming out of the club a lot. We hear the word 'can't' a lot: 'We can't compete with Chelsea and Man City'. The errors Wenger has made in recent seasons - actually they are not errors as far as he is concerned, they are his 'philosophy' - are things that have been within his power and budget to rectify, but he has not. The subtext to the whole article is 'Wenger should stay in charge forever'. That's the agenda in writing it.

  58. rudytel

    Mar 27, 2012, 12:20 #20626

    Good article from a business perspective. 2nd paragraph is a bit hard to swallow. Whilst we're not a money burning mafia/oil funded club, success on the pitch will only be achieved if the transfer policy and wage structure is slightly altered. Although recent signings and contract renewals are suspect AW has worked miracles with peanuts.

  59. Mike

    Mar 27, 2012, 11:21 #20625

    Here is an interesting one -Should Alex Song be given an improved big money contract to keep him a Arsenal? -in my opinion yes

  60. Joe Fitzpatrick

    Mar 27, 2012, 10:51 #20624

    how does this explain Swansea doing so very well so far? how much more have manchester united actually spent than us in transfers and wages (net) over the last 7 years? i'm guessing it's not that much more than us.