Is there a tenable defence left for Wenger?

An examination of the arguments for retaining the manager



Is there a tenable defence left for Wenger?

The law of diminishing returns?


I have waited a fair while to see if I could understand some of the arguments being repeatedly tabled by those who still support Wenger’s position as Arsenal manager and those who oppose it. After we got dumped out of our last trophy opportunity (the unlikely Champions League), and reading Wenger’s post-match comments and ensuing discussions on onlinegooner, I find myself still confused as to the arguments advanced by those who continue to support keeping Wenger on.. Here are some of the key talking points to date:

(1) Some say football isn’t all about winning trophies. True – otherwise clubs like Spurs would have ceased to exist many years ago. However, I’m sure everyone would agree there always has to be a purpose. The problem is that as a club we’re now at ‘cross-purposes’. Our fans state that the purpose of the club is to win trophies and be competitive in all competitions we play in; our owner and management (including the manager) continue to tell us that the purpose of the club is to live within its means and that we shouldn’t believe the hype. My only question is - what was Wenger told when he took the job? I’m sure he was hired to deliver on the pitch and win trophies, wasn’t he? So, has he been successful to that end in the last eight years? (It’s a rhetorical question, friends.)

(2) Some say Wenger’s record needs to be reviewed over his tenure at Arsenal and not just the past eight seasons: again, I don’t disagree with that, but what sort of average are we looking for here? Do we have to wait till his trophy per season average goes down to a negligible figure? How many years without a trophy can the club sustain before we become an irrelevant (‘also-ran’) team? The pundits on Sky Sports would say we’re already there and Arsenal have already become irrelevant. It would be very difficult to disagree with them on that point, given that we currently sit 24 points behind the Premiership lead. That equates to eight matches! So, right now, Man Utd could begin their premiership campaign in mid-September (skipping their first eight matches drinking cocoa in Hawaii on vacation) and they’d still be level on points with Arsenal. You call that competing?!

(3) Some say we won’t find a better replacement, so why not stick with what we currently have. Those are obviously people who haven’t heard of the ‘law of diminishing returns’, a law with which Wenger of all people should be very familiar, seeing he’s got a degree in economics. Arsenal face diminishing returns in all aspects; since winning our last Premier league title we’ve gone down to only winning an FA Cup, and then almost winning a few Carling Cups, to winning nothing for several years but finishing in the top four for a CL spot, and now we’re down to a right struggle to maintain that fourth spot.

It will not take a magician to tell you that the next step in our chapter is that we will then fail to qualify for the CL (whether it’s this season or the next remains to be seen, but it’s imminent) and we’ll be told the Europa is actually almost as nice and that we will make some money (and could win it), we’ll qualify for Europa for a few seasons (won’t win it) and then most likely we’ll move on to not qualifying for Europa and Gazidis will tell us it’s a rubbish competition anyway….. on and on, and on. Is that what we want for Arsenal? Well, as many have said for months now, Wenger was an unknown quantity when we hired him. We have a choice now to take a similar risk or try a fairly known manager e.g. Laudrup and some of the other lesser-known managers fans have been naming; or we could go out there and entice some of the Premier League calibre managers who already know what it takes to manage at this level (even Benitez may not be a terribly bad idea, seeing whoever takes over can’t do any worse than not winning a trophy). Keeping a manager just because a club is too scared to see what else is out there is a very cowardly approach.

(4) Some say Wenger can still turn things around. Ok, that’s a good one. Now, let’s look at the reasons Wenger and others at the club have tabled so far for our failure to win trophies, and we can see if there is light at the end of the tunnel somewhere (even if it’s an unusually long tunnel). We were winning trophies when Wenger first arrived and he told us that in order to become a great club we must make more money and build a stadium that’s on a par with other great clubs. We all agreed; who doesn’t want a dazzling stadium? I recall Wenger even threatened to walk away from Arsenal a few times until the board agreed with his demands for a new stadium and the building began in earnest. The tradeoff was that the club will have to manage its debts and build the stadium by sacrificing huge spending on new players and keep the wage-bill down.

The answer to that was in Wenger’s back-pocket and it was known as: project youth! We will allow Wenger to use his magical touch that had already supposedly worked in turning the likes of Thierry Henry into a goal-scoring machine from his days as a winger, to groom several other young players and keep Arsenal competitive till the impact of building the stadium has gone and we can go back to normal. However, in comes oil money; that phenomenon that the short-sighted folks like Wenger never accounted for, and with it came something else - the need to adapt to modern-day football, which doesn’t really support the grooming of young players, because, as Clichy and several others have shown us, modern-day players do not owe their allegiances to any club and they will move as often as they wish to any club who either offers them more money or gives them a better chance to win trophies (oh! Looks like even the players realize it’s all about winning trophies….). I have a question for you all - how is Wenger supposed to turn things around? How exactly is he going to do it?

(5) Some say Wenger still has the tactics right. That is almost as laughable as it sounds. Without getting pedantic or silly about this, Man Utd clung on to some of their senior players for years (and some are still there right now - Giggs, Scholes); why did they do that? Because there is something called pedigree and a winning mentality that can only be shared through experience and not just taught on the training ground. After the Invincibles season, Wenger thought he had indeed become invincible, and he cleared out the majority of the experienced players we had at the time and filled those key positions with a bunch of kids. These kids soon got demotivated and that was that. No senior shoulders to lean on and no experience to count on. Our tactics against Bolton and other physical sides in the league was to have a right moan after each defeat or dropped point, and we did nothing about adopting a different tactic when playing those teams. Long ball after long ball got goals for Kevin Davies against Arsenal, and that era was quickly followed by long throw-ins from Rory Delap as we dropped point after point against Stoke and Wenger continued to moan. To date, not a lot has changed; we have remained a spineless side that drops points at will (and not just to decent teams, but to any team with the desire to win; Bradford, Blackburn……). Wenger has refused to move with the times, so, we will continue to struggle in key games.

(6) Some say a new manager won’t fare any better because of Gazidis and the board. There’s some truth to this, but we can’t do much worse than finishing empty-handed for yet another season, can we? Yes, the club’s current owner has turned the club into a business and we’re no longer a football club per se. But imminently, when the club’s value dips appreciably, because we’re no longer seen as a serious football club and supporters refuse to buy merchandise and begin avoiding matches, the board and owner will either sell to a more motivated (football-minded) owner who will most likely get rid of Wenger; or Wenger will at that time come out and blame the current board for the club’s demise and he’ll get back to focusing on football and we’ll be back competing and eventually start winning again. But what are the chances this owner and board will depart anytime soon? I say we have a better chance of trying a new manager and showing the board they can make even more money if we go back to winning trophies (more fans, more merchandise sales etc.). Again, it’s a tricky argument, as the current owner/board are raking it in now anyway (and so is Wenger).

Anyway, I’ll leave you all with the above thoughts and questions. Perhaps some of our fellow fans who still want Wenger in place can share other logical ideas that will convince us all that eight years without a trophy isn’t so bad and Wenger should remain at the helm for many more years


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62
comments

  1. Ken

    Mar 29, 2013, 21:03 #33644

    @Canada gooner.Yes you are right the season is not yet over and sure i want Arsenal to do well,If you don't know it's the club i support. Wenger i want out. My point is this debate will always go on and it's geting a bit old now, but Wenger as to go as soon as.

  2. Ronster

    Mar 28, 2013, 19:12 #33635

    Heard the latest?......Diaby ruled out for 9 months! Go on Arsene,extend his contract....pathetic...Wenger out!

  3. CanadaGooner

    Mar 28, 2013, 14:23 #33632

    @Ken - I'm sure you would agree we still want to win our remaining games this season (even if it gets us nowehere in terms of trophies)? So, shouting negative things out at the games isnt what anyone wants. We are The Arsenal, not Blackburn Rovers mate. Feel free to either boycott the games or stage your protests at the stadium in June and July.

  4. Ken

    Mar 28, 2013, 12:52 #33629

    You can always do the pro's and cons, at the end of the day Wenger just as to go. Are we gonna make him more of a dictator he already his. the more this debate go's on the more action needs to be taken before it brings the club down evan more. So shout it out at games WENGER OUT NOW.

  5. mark from aylesbury

    Mar 28, 2013, 8:51 #33626

    I think I said the ages ago and agreeing with Gare. Wenger has based the last 5-6 years positioning himself into the most stable role in football. Perhaps realising going head to head consistently with Fergie was too draining and beyond his ability to deal with star players. He reinvented the role driving the business enterprise. Informing those already convinced by his god like status that 4th is good, profit margin celebratiion good. Chelsea changed rules cannot compete, FA cup irrelevant and so the list goes on. If you view him as control freak it all makes sense. So to sum up best he goes.

  6. Gare Kekeke

    Mar 28, 2013, 0:50 #33624

    @ Lee afc; I’m not worried at all about what Mourinho could/would do to Wenger next season, because those of us who aren’t stuck up Wenger’s backside (me being one of them and I’m not suggesting you are) knows that when Jose returns, he will once again put Wenger in the shade. It’s called ‘looking at the bigger picture’. But some fans will delude themselves into believing that Wenger will have the measure of Mourinho with FFP imminent. I think these people should look at what Jose did at FC Porto with less money before making such judgements. Then as now, Mourinho proved himself as a good coach, something that at times, Wenger is incapable of doing. I will also state for the record that I am not a Mourinho fan because of all the theatre that comes with him. I respect him as a coach but that’s it. Wenger’s record against Mourinho so far; no wins, four draws and four defeats and let’s not forget one of them was in a cup final for which at one stage we were in total command. But hey, if you can recall a Wenger win against Mourinho, then I’m all ears. Even Gareth Southgate beat Mourinho at his first attempt. As for this season, if you really have read my posts you are have claimed, then you will know that ALL season I have backed us for a top four finish because I don’t think Tottenham, Everton & Liverpool have got the quality to overhaul us. Just my opinion. And as for Millwall, if they do reach the cup final, then yes I might be there as I have one or two connections at that club. And some of their fans (and I do like to emphasise the word ‘some’ because sadly there are some c*nts who follow that club) are actually nice people.

  7. lee afc

    Mar 27, 2013, 22:08 #33620

    gare......why are you worrying about what 'the special one' is going to do to us next season...please, please concentrate on the club that you suggest that you support, bearing in mind you may be at the cup final supporting the mighty millwall. I respect some of your comments my friend but speculating on next season is hardly worth an inch of worry before this season has finished. Get a grip.

  8. Dan h

    Mar 27, 2013, 18:27 #33617

    He has to go regardless of a 4/5th finish look at the bigger picture what will change this summer?Last year should have been the final wake up call.Board,manager deluded at what they have reinvented as success top 4 & that alone will do.Low expectations & fans that question that point are told get behind the team show loyalty blah blah.Steve Bould should never of been appointed number two a double of Reverend Moon would have fitted in with the brain washing that has gone on.

  9. Daniel MK Gooner

    Mar 27, 2013, 16:59 #33615

    Ron - Thanks mate!! There are 4 seats behind me that were populated by a very wealthy looking chap and his children at Dennis Bergkamps testimonial and he's been about once a season since then - Whenever we play a London club I look round and the seats are invariably filled with Chelsea,West Ham or even Spud fans - And I'm in the 'cheap' seats in the lower tier!Never been to West Brom - Should be a good day out.

  10. Ron

    Mar 27, 2013, 15:23 #33613

    Daniel MK - Great stuff mate. You made me laugh! Yes, ill be at WBA. Its a great proper little stadium. One of the best away days i always say. Albion are a good side now though. It ll be a tough one. Agree totally in that going to away matches serves to remind me what being a supporter is supposed to be. Ash Grove is surreal in my view. Nice seats etc etc and classy place but oh so badly designed just for the modern day 'tarquin' types as you say.

  11. Daniel MK Gooner

    Mar 27, 2013, 14:32 #33612

    This is quite interesting but everything we say is all 'Groundhog Day' and will be until Kroenke sells up to someone who wants to win trophies. To be honest I've lost a lot of interest and I've been a season ticket holder for over 20 years now and dedicated the best part of my social life to it!! Having said that I can't wait to go to WBA next week - Away games actually have some atmosphere generally without Japanese tourists and The Islington Brigade of Tarquins and Clarissas who've joined the fold in the last 10 years.Sometimes I almost yearn for Morrow and Selley in midfield - They may have been poor players but at least you could identify with them.

  12. CanadaGooner

    Mar 27, 2013, 12:42 #33610

    Mandy, perhaps dropping the captain and keeper should have come prior to playing Bradford and Blackburn? or maybe before going 24 points behind united? Doing it now just further proves Wenger only cares about finishing 4th and keeping his job till his contract runs out: that's his definition of a principled man and our definition of an arrogant fool

  13. Gaz

    Mar 27, 2013, 12:30 #33609

    @Laurence: Any defence of Wenger always seems to come down to the excuse that he's had no money or has always been denied money. Sorry mate but thats absolute nonsense. Our problems since 2006 have had nothing to do with money and everything to with Wenger spending the money he has had poorly (both on players and their wages) and a simple managerial flaw of not getting the best out of what on paper is a pretty good squad of players. It doesn't matter whether you're competing against the likes of City, chelsea, Bradford or Blackburn you have to set up your team professionally and at some point look at any weaknesses in the opposition. Wenger fails to do either and throw in a complete lack of basic coaching in important areas and its a recipe for disaster. So what I'm saying is that there are a number of managers out there who could get much more out of this side without actually signing any new players. Because nobody is going to tell me that the likes of Vermaelen wouldn't be a far better player if he was given some kind of 'one to one' coaching, and nobody is going to tell me that Ferguson in particular would allow some of the piss-poor performances that now seem such a part of Wengers Arsenal since 2006. Honestly I'm simply astounded that people can still make comparisons of whats happened in the past as some sort of defence for Wenger. But whilst we're talking about 'what ifs' how about answering this for me? If Wenger had walked away after 2006 and had been replaced by another manager and that manager did exactly the same as Wenger afterwards how long would he have been given? Three years? Four years? Maybe even five years? But you can bet your bottom dollar that he wouldn't have been given a nine year period (thats what it will be) before winning a trophy. Throw in some of our worst ever defeats (that somehow seem to have been both forgotten and forgiven) and he would have been hounded out ages ago. So in reality the only reason Wengers still at the Club is down to sentiment and sentiment alone. And whilst thats a very noble thing for the Club to do it sure aint gonna win us any trophies.

  14. Ron

    Mar 27, 2013, 11:19 #33607

    Gooner Ron - I do hear you and at the end of the day, AW has got his final year anyway i think, even though many feel its a year too far. It will be interesting to see what he does with it. PS Looking at that game last night, im not convinced spending a pretty penny on Jovetic is sound judgment if the rumoured interest is true of course.

  15. Laurence

    Mar 27, 2013, 9:46 #33605

    If I asked you, would you like to go 8-10 years without a trophy (an lets face it, we have come bloody close in those years) followed by 20-30 years of success, if not dominance OR signing 500 million on a number of players over 5 years and getting the odd league title or FA Cup (ie Man City/Chelsea approach), which would you choose? Put it this way, do you think any other manager could have done a better job? Ferguson, I hear you say? Well Im not so sure he could have done better because he has spent 70 million (net) more than Wenger in the last 5 years. Mancini, Mourinho? Forget it. Who out there do you honestly think could have got through the last 8 years in better shape? I personally love the way we have moved to the new stadium, I think its classy, smart and most importantly gives the ability to remain as London's No.1 team, which we still are. You may call me dillusional, however I am talking about our rich history, and the fact that we have still won more trophies that every London club PUT TOGETHER!! Thats not about to change soon either. If nothing else, the last 8 years is going to make celebrating in front of all the plastic Chelsea, spurs, Utd, City fans all the more satisfying. Wake up because we are almost there!!!

  16. Van de Ed

    Mar 27, 2013, 8:18 #33604

    @Sabregas - Would you bet your mortgage on either Jack, Santi, Lukas or even Feo still being with us come next season?? If RVP can be so easily flogged to the ManCheats, I won't put any stupid transfer decisions past this current lot managing our club. Le Boss, OUT!!

  17. FED UP

    Mar 27, 2013, 2:53 #33602

    Let Wenger have another contract, and what will us fans be saying he should have gone seasons ago. Meantime other London clubs are winning silverware. And what will we say he got us in to the top 4 they were the days and do you remember the last time Arsenal won the cup think it was in 2005, still mr Wenger a very nice man i feel sorry for him. Give him another season.

  18. Mandy dodd

    Mar 27, 2013, 0:12 #33601

    Canada gooner, he will take at least the last year so lets see what he does. There have been changes in signings, for instance germAn and Spanish internationals I for one can live with that. Dropping the captain and keeper and the last couple of performances. Like wenger or not he is here for another year but the team needs backing they are not to blame for failings at board level

  19. GoonerRon

    Mar 26, 2013, 23:05 #33600

    @ Ron - I don't disagree with some of what you say. It's difficult to argue that the 'edge' Wenger had has diminished to the point where he is seen by many as old-fashioned and behind the curve. It's my personal opinion (and one that I can appreciate isn't synonymous with many on here) that despite the relative lack of success in the second half of his tenure, he has earned the right to have one more push in the last year of his contract. One thing that cannot be questionned about Wenger is his commitment to Arsenal Football Club. Yes, he may make decisions that sometimes baffle, he can be prickly and frustrating, perhaps his powers as a manager are on the wane, but I don't doubt that he is totally committed to the club and wants to return us to former glories maybe even more than us. Whether he's the man to deliver it remains to be seen but I still like to think we do things the right way at Arsenal - and hounding out a manager who has done such great things and never broken a contract when I'm sure he was given huge financial incentives to do so - just feels wrong to me.

  20. ArseLaw

    Mar 26, 2013, 16:11 #33599

    Out. This club has turned into a plc/football academy. Develop young players, they become World class, we sell them on and bring in more youngsters, repeat the cycle. This club used to have a mixture of young and older Experienced/WC players. The moment Wenger started relying on smaller/younger players is the moment we stopped winning trophies. No coincidence these small players are so injury prone in such a physical league, techincal player other strong athletic players. Selling our invincibles squad so quickly and selling our recent best players season after season and replacing with dross like chamakh, Santos and Bendy hasn't helped.

  21. Ron

    Mar 26, 2013, 14:34 #33598

    Peter - You mention Merson. I dumped SKY and its garbage a few years back now but i recall his views seem to have depended on the weather and what drink hes had the night before or whatever else he s maybe on, plus hes a Chelsea fan. One minute he supports Wenger, the next he s on his case, fueled perhaps because Wenger drummed him out and wouldnt put up with his drunken antics anymore. Good ex Gunner player, but a complete idiot nontheless in my opinion. Hes perfectly made for SKY tele with his illogical garbage and talk for the sake of talk approach. Take Stelling and Charlie Nick away and all youre left with is a team of hopelessly biased plums.

  22. Peter Wain

    Mar 26, 2013, 14:07 #33597

    if Wenger cannot be sacked now when can he be sacked. I am fed up with people like Merson going on about careful for what you wish for because when you look at the clubs temas we seem to be doing badly all over. Under 18 6th out of seven under 21 4th 12 points behind the scum with a game in hand. The first team so far behind the Mancs and yet to win agame against the top three. So why should not Wenger's position be queried. In every other big team a manager who had not won anything in 8 years would have been sacked. in deed when did we last compete to win the premiership. All the money spent in the past six years has been largely wasted on players who although cheaper than our competitors purchases were essentially third rate and therefore very costly financially. No enough is enough Wenger needs to go at the end of the season.

  23. Ron

    Mar 26, 2013, 13:11 #33596

    Gooner Ron Nothing at all wrong with your view. Many share it and to a point its hard to argue it. In my view, the difference in spend vis the other Clubs though is to an extent the red herring that the Club and Wenger eagerly sieze upon to justify failure and mediocrity. Players and Coaches make teams and not just the highly priced ones. The lesser lights in the big spenders teams contribute just as much. Wenger has spent a packet on dross players and lightweights so his oft repeated theory of 'financial doping' excluding his team from the trophy list is only a convenient partial truth. The Coaches of those teams had their own input too. Swansea, Pompey and Bham have all won trophies in his barren years at Arsenal.Wenger has just got stale and ran out of steam, just like Cheif Execs of top companies do. Hes tired. He looks tired and hes become myopic to the obvious failings of players apart from his favourites and his powers of motivation (for me) have never been up to much. Look how he allowed the invincibles to sulk and whinge (with him) after Old Trafford in 2004 instead of saying 'right lets go another 49 games unbeaten'.

  24. JAMIE

    Mar 26, 2013, 12:09 #33595

    A little bit tough on Wenger who although has had his handbrake on the last couple of years did at least compete in the previous 8 seasons.2006-Champ Final.2007-Lg Cup Final.2008-4 points off being champions.2009-semi's in Fa and Champs league.2011-League cup final.With FFP coming in and Arsenal now on a more level playing field with rest ie.more available funds ground paid off etc.Wenger should be given three more years to see what he can do.My Canadian cockney friend does like a good old moan up.

  25. Max

    Mar 26, 2013, 10:20 #33594

    Do more articles on other subjects - like the Paul Vaessen series or the Nearly Men series. That might also help sales of the hard copy.

  26. Knock it long to Raphael Meade

    Mar 26, 2013, 8:51 #33593

    Two thumbs up for the piece, CG articulates well as per usual. One thumb down for the photo though, as it looks like something you'd see in a Stoke City fanzine. However the other thumb stays up because even given what I've just said (typed?), it is because the coat is too funny. I like how Podolski resembles a decommissioned Terminator in his coat after his 70th minute substitution.

  27. Gaz

    Mar 26, 2013, 8:08 #33592

    @Sabregas: The irony of your statement (that we wont be losing anybody this summer) being of course that all off our really good players (JW apart) have already been sold!!!

  28. Wombledin

    Mar 26, 2013, 7:37 #33591

    The Totts will choke and we will knick fourth, Kroenke and Hill-Wood will reaffirm their support of Clouseau, and all will be rosey in Clouseau's garden.

  29. Sir Sid James

    Mar 26, 2013, 7:02 #33590

    If Wenger really did care about the club he would resign at the end of the season.He is a dictator who wont listen to anyone.8 seasons of Groundhog seasons and he has done nothing to change it.He is tactically bankrupt.The signings in the last two years have been a joke.Santos Chamakh Giroud Park Gervinho.We have gone from being the Invincibles to a team whose only ambition from the start of every season is to finish 4th.So why is he still at the club?Profits my boy.Wenger should have gone within 5 minutes after the end of the 8-2 the man really has no shame

  30. Sabregas

    Mar 26, 2013, 1:35 #33589

    Only one point that I would make For the first time Arsene won't have to rebuild a squad in the summer. Every season for the last however many seasons, Arsene has lost one or two really key personnel in the structure of the team, causing him to re-build his team literally every season. For once, he won't have to be rebuilding as I expect all of our current players will stay on board for another season or 3 (with the exception of sagna possibly). This GMH.

  31. FED UP

    Mar 25, 2013, 23:51 #33588

    Us fans can talk the talk, Action is needed and NOW we can talk all we want but ACTION SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. Attend games and let Wenger know what we think of him? The gooner poll at the moment gives a high vote of WENGER OUT.

  32. maguiresbridge gooner

    Mar 25, 2013, 22:00 #33587

    I was going to reply to Prashanth,and uselessrightfoot,and then i thought why waste my time. So i decided to reply to Red Member instead,who has made a great point about our fan base.It has most certainly been split and split in a big way, and that's sad, a great shame and it's down to wenger nobody else,can this split become irreversible ? i'm sure it can, but only after a new broom comes in and sweeps the place clean,manager included, and like RM says only then can we move forward and be united in support of not only our team but our manager who ever he may be.

  33. lee afc

    Mar 25, 2013, 22:00 #33586

    Canada....i've got a lot of time for you my friend and the words above are well and truly spoken. we are at a massive crossroads, under performing players, over priced tickets, wage bill too high, average performances, lack of the will to win and so forth. It is the key games that has killed us off over the last few seasons and the selling of the players that could have given us a chance of glory. But i will say, for 90 minutes we should remain loyal and positive as gooners because the manager will be long gone and I will still be standing by the club that I love long after mr wenger has departed.

  34. CanadaGooner

    Mar 25, 2013, 21:37 #33585

    @GoonerRon - fair enough. However, saying loyalty is a two-way street is a little inaccurate: when Wenger had his unbeaten run, he wasnt to know that the next 8 years would be the way they've turned out. If he did, he would have left for sure (unless ofcourse he had 7.5million reasons to stay); also, I very much doubt Real Madrid or whoever else was courting him at the time would have given him 8 years to get his act together (look at their record and you'll see that managers over there (and at almost every other major club) MUST win trophies or they get sacked within very short notice Anyway, as someone else said, we can say all we want; Wenger wont resign (7.5million reasons not to, and I dont see any other major club out there who will pay him that much to win nothing each season and then let him stay for 8 seasons). As a club, we have already rewarded wenger for his brilliant performances in his first few years, by allowing him to stay for 8 seasons with no trophies. Not sure anyone deserves any more than that

  35. Mark T

    Mar 25, 2013, 20:56 #33584

    Wenger is a disgrace. He has made the club into a laughing stock. He's become an idiot dictator. Crap signings. No tactics. Ponderous football. No passion. Wasting money hand over fist. Worst of all, he disrespects that proper fans of our great club, day in and day out. Shame on you Wenger.

  36. GoonerRon

    Mar 25, 2013, 20:45 #33583

    He should stay next season for the last year of his contract. Reasons: (A) he has kept us competitive, i.e; always in top 3 or 4, three cup finals, two league title tilts etc at a time when we self funded a £400m stadium move (B) consecutive CL qualifications when in the last 5 years Man C/Chelsea have spent a combined £1bn more than us on net spend/wages, Man U a further £250m more, Liverpool £100m more net spend with comparable wages and ensured our extra wage spend has always kept us ahead of Spuds. (C) loyalty is a two way street and he stayed with us when his stock was highest after the only unbeaten league season in a century. (D) he has facilitated an infrastructure at our club (stadium, training ground) that sees us in a position of strength for decades to come. (E) to put it simply, he is a very good manager and coach (but by no means perfect). Let the abuse commence.....

  37. Ronster

    Mar 25, 2013, 19:10 #33582

    Is that Zebedee from The Magic Roundabout!?....well we are going round in circles as le prof's spin continues to take us all for a ride.......

  38. billthered

    Mar 25, 2013, 19:06 #33581

    I dont think the fan base is split anymore, more than half have had enough I know I have.

  39. ppp

    Mar 25, 2013, 18:36 #33580

    Long winded piece just panders to the arsenal-haters. Write something for Arsenal fans next time.

  40. Ken

    Mar 25, 2013, 17:23 #33579

    WENGER OUT THE ONLY WAY,WE CAN'T GO ON PAST GLORYS.

  41. 600NER PETE

    Mar 25, 2013, 17:13 #33578

    It's taken a while Canada Gooner, but this season you have at last began to realise what a lot of us were saying several seasons ago. P.S. Short answer to your question...NO!

  42. Danny

    Mar 25, 2013, 17:06 #33577

    Should have be fired long time ago perennial loser with no ambition. living with a high pay check and comfort zone The AKB are to blame to him, and we should get him out before more damage is done

  43. maguiresbridge gooner

    Mar 25, 2013, 16:49 #33576

    No Canada, just like our defence on the pitch there's none,although you can be sure some will try,and they'd be happy if he stayed, and we won nothing for another eight years,and you can be damned sure the fans that say it's not all about winning trophies probably the same ones, weren't saying that when we were actually winning them, and getting to finals,and doing doubles.Yes we're also rans alright and have been for quite a while,and our demise under this manager and his inability to turn it around is there for all to see, and our failure to qualify for the CL has been getting closer and closer and i don't think any of us will be surprised if or when the EL arrives, and you can just hear the spin now.This manager won't change now mate, no matter who comes in and takes over, with his beliefs and philosophies, and one man crusade to prove everybody wrong by winning something on the cheap with inferior players,it's his way or no way, and i think if someone were to take over and tell arsene i run the show now,not you, here's £100m to spend on real players, do what you're getting well paid to do, bring us success again, and failures not an option, he'd walk.And that's the kind of owner we need. Good article.

  44. Carlos

    Mar 25, 2013, 16:49 #33575

    The real crux, in my view of what has gone wrong is when you say that the manager thought '"he was invincible". His ego got the better of him as he lapped up the adulation culminating in the club commissioning a bust of the serving manager, which I believe he unveiled; a case study in megalomania. His constant harping on about "30 years at the top level" to dismiss any criticism rather than engaging with it in rational debate. Mind you all this wouldn't matter if he could still send out a team to compete with the best and if he was still able to replace the good players who have left with equivalent replacements. However, he can't, so he should go.

  45. Gare Kekeke

    Mar 25, 2013, 16:06 #33574

    Good article. Overall, Wenger has been great for The Arsenal but his refusal to adapt and evolve with the changing times in football means for me he won’t recapture his former glories. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, FFP won’t save him or the club either. It certainly won’t come with an instruction manual on how teams can defend well. Where was ‘financial doping’ when we lost a cup final to the Brummie Bluenoses who were relegated from the Premier League less than three months later, cup ties this season to Football League opposition, cup ties in general to Premier League teams other than the Manchester two & Chelsea and European Cup setbacks to the ‘giants’ such as Braga, Schalke 04 & PSV in recent years? The fact that points wise we are closer to 18th place Wigan than we are to leaders Man Utd despite us being 5th is both damming & embarrassing considering many fans still see The Arsenal as major competitors and rivals to Man Utd. But sadly nothing will change until this current board & manager are removed. One last thing to mention. Should Wenger remain as manager of The Arsenal for a few more years when Mourinho comes back to the Premier League, then we are well and truly f*cked. Wenger couldn’t beat an unproven Mourinho at Chelsea so I wonder what makes the Wenger apologists think that Wenger will have the beating of the self-styled ‘special manager’ when Jose comes back from successful spells in Italy & Spain?

  46. CanadaGooner

    Mar 25, 2013, 15:41 #33573

    @RichardS: I'm rolling on the floor in my office right now laughing my head off. 'Relegation'? ha ha ha. Surely we would have to be worse that Wigan, Fulham and the other teams who are in the dog-fight each and every season, and then you have the Liverpools, Evertons and the usual middle-table teams; we will first need to finish below those to begin thinking about relegation. If you had read the first line of the article, you would have noticed it is exactly that: PRESENTATION of comments and thoughts to date, made by fans on this site, to assess why we're so divided. All that said, I cant waste too many words on you; need to comment on more intelligent stuff said on here. Dont expect another reply from me on this matter @uselessrightfoot: thanks for the pro-wenger perspective; it seems you agree with a great deal of what those who are fed-up with wenger say; so, I actually dont think you're pro-wenger at all. From your comments I think you're with the rest of us, you just dont see it yet perhaps. Anyway, the reality is that in today's football, most teams (unless those winning trophies; and even those still lose some players to the money-men) cant hangon to their best performing players, and the moment the players with promise that you listed begin to deliver, they will be snatched away: so, where does that leave us? we cant keep grooming/developing players, we need to start buying good quality players while at the same times grooming (cant do just one without the other).

  47. RichardS

    Mar 25, 2013, 14:53 #33572

    What has happened to this site? The Gooner used to be such an invigorating fanzine, with balanced debate. I haven't written on this site for a while, despite still reading the majority of articles, but I cannot contain myself any longer. What is the point of this article? It is simply a ruse to encourage some pro-wenger fans to stick their necks out and receive a torrent of abuse from others. And a pathetic attempt it is too. Before I receive the usual nonsense, I can confirm that I would like a change of manager and have felt this way for a while, due predominantly to poor motivation and coaching skills and an inability to tactically change the shape of the team to meet the opposition. This article simply regurgitates points that have been raised a hundred times. Oh and 'we can't do much worse than finishing empty-handed for yet another season, can we?'. Yes actually. It's called relegation, you idiot.

  48. Red Member

    Mar 25, 2013, 14:29 #33571

    regardless of whether he deserves another chance the reason for me that he must now go is that he has split the fanbase irreversibly. For that reason alone he must go as soon as possible. The only way that the club can move forward is to be united in support for the team and the manager.

  49. DW Thomas

    Mar 25, 2013, 14:18 #33570

    All good points, a really good piece. I have enjoyed your comments/articles for some time now, as with Joe Fitz. to name others. One thing should be mentioned in addition, maybe you did already. Wenger's gigantic ego! Sure you need unwavering confidence, but all great leaders must be willing to adapt and change to succeed and this is where he as failed again and again. The 8-2 thrashing by United lat year, without RVP, should have been the wake up needed to buy some top world class players, just to replace the ones we lost. Yet who came in? Decent enough blokes, but none at class of Fabregas or Nasri. Refusal to adapt has been this club's biggest problem. Our team has a decent core, but each year it is diluted by selling our best. That is simply ridiculous. RVP to United must be seen as one of the biggest blunders in the history of transfers. The only way I get my head around that one is that money is more important than trophies. How else do you explain it? And that is a policy that will lose us fans year after year until the rot is stopped.

  50. uselessrightfoot

    Mar 25, 2013, 14:08 #33569

    Let me reply with a pro-Wenger perspective: 1) Bit of a strawman. I don't believe football is all about trophies but that is not a defence of the manager and I don't think anyone has claimed it to be. 2)I agree that looking at his record from 8 years ago to justify current failures doesn't make sense. Many great coaches have declined so could have Arsene Wenger. 3)I also don't agree with that "we won't find a better replacement." There are many young, talented coaches out there who can bring a fresh perspective to Arsenal and perhaps re-ignite our cannons. Many of these young coaches, of course, have learned from AW himself. 4) I do think he can turn things around. You ask how he can do it? Well, I still think he is a very good coach who has his teams play modern, attacking football, and he knows how to get the best out of his players. What explains more than anything our decline is the fact that we've lost top quality year after year. What he needs is some investment to build on the talent we have. Wilshere, Cazorla, Ox can be the core of another technically brilliant Wenger team. You have a good basis. We also have a good group of players backing those three. There's Walcott, Gibbs, Jenks, Ramsey...there's a lot of talent. And if we keep the team together we can go places. Watching Arsenal play against Spurs, Bayern, and Swansea you can see Arsenal still hold their own tactically and technically. This team is still developing, we need a stable summer and I think we can challenge for the title next season. 5)You look at our wins against Swansea and Bayern and tell me Wenger doesnt' get tactics right. He does get the approach wrong now and then but tactically he knows what he's doing and doesn't get enough credit in that department. 6) It's not the fault of Gazidis or Kroenke or the board, but it's simply that we haven't had the money to compete with Chelsea/City/United and havent' been able to hold onto our stars or compete for the top players. Wenger says that we have more money available now so let's see how our spending changes. But no matter who is in charge the fact is that only the top spending teams stand a chance to win the EPL or CL. And in the last 8 years we have been very far away from the top spending teams. Unless that changes unfortunately a change in manager will not change anything. Look at Chelsea right now. Despite the spending and the changes in coaches, they've struggled this season and last. Their problem is similar to ours - that we are both rebuilding our teams. It takes time and we need to start spending our new money to sign big players and hold onto them if we are to compete, whether Wenger stays or not.

  51. Danish Gooner

    Mar 25, 2013, 13:51 #33568

    Wenger will never change his principles,it will still be all about balancing the books and buying on the cheap,same tactics and same old spin.

  52. Bard

    Mar 25, 2013, 13:31 #33567

    Don't disagree with the questions or the analysis. However the bottom line is Wenger will decide if he stays or goes. He won't walk out on his contract so we have at least another year of him at the helm. I would guess that he will throw the kitchen sink at it financially next year and hope for er.... 4th place and then walk away with his head held high. His legacy is at stake here and as a stubborn man he'll want one ore crack at it. He won't want to go out a loser. The rubs is that for all the reasons you outline Canada he's lost his mojo and it'll be more of the same.

  53. Gaz

    Mar 25, 2013, 12:39 #33566

    @Prashanth: I think what you meant to say was give the man YET ANOTHER chance. As others have said simply giving Wenger more money to spend is pointless when he's effectively wasted whatever money he has had on really poor players and undeserved wages. I dont think any Arsenal fan will ever forget the influence Wenger has had both on the Club and english football in general. But for goodness sake how much more evidence do you need before you finally conclude he's simply not as good as he once was.

  54. Joe

    Mar 25, 2013, 12:28 #33565

    Good article clearly identifying all fo the poitns we fans have spoken about in pubs and at games for a while now. My own view is he must go ASAP (regardless of the last few decent results) because ultimately he is to blame. He has spent millions (price of squad against Spurs was £128m in transfer fees alone) and got us further away from the top clubs in the process. We only have one formation and no plan B when it fails which is why all the top teams beat us because they know what to expect, the fact the smaller teams now do thisto us is also a huge concern. A new manager with new ideas will spend the transfer budget we have and also hopefully clear out all of the deadwood (Diaby, Gervinho etc) to raise extra funds for recruiting new and better players. If we sack Wenger or he walks away then PSG will probably have him and we can have Ancelotti who is already a proven winner in this country as well as Europe

  55. Prashanth

    Mar 25, 2013, 12:11 #33564

    Well, the difference between the coming season and the others is definitely that we will have money to spend since we have cleared off our debts(more than what we had in previous years) and also the important fact that this is Wenger's final year in charge(contract expiry). So my guess is that Wenger will go all out to win a trophy and this may well define whether or not Arsene gets a contract extension!Give the man a chance.....afterall, he made the modern day Arsenal that many respect!(although the majority are'nt Gooners!) Well I still think AKB!

  56. jo

    Mar 25, 2013, 12:03 #33563

    even if wenger wins something i still think his ideas are too old for the currents squad,we need a new manager,a team for the future doesnt work for me,we need a strong team for today and that comes with a strong coach and for me that aint wenger

  57. GG89

    Mar 25, 2013, 11:57 #33562

    No... The situation is compounded though. (i) paying back the stadium. (ii) Sugar daddies at other clubs. (iii) FFP coming in. AW has lost the plot trying to cope with all that but probably doesn´t delegate well. Therefore, I think promoting through the ranks is a good idea... Brady, bring back Keown.... That would make me happy. Or happier than looking at Giroud, Diaby, etc ruin my day, day in day out...

  58. Croker

    Mar 25, 2013, 11:38 #33561

    Thanks for writing this Canada. I can sympathise with the stadium move costs putting the handbrake on smashing transfer records and that even with our finances being in rude health, Arsenal should not be throwing Chelksi or Man City amounts of money on crazy shopping lists of players who will never fit into a team. What frustrates me are the basic errors we keep seeing Arsenal players commit and Wenger's repeat failures to sign/develop reliable goalkeepers and defensive players. You don't need a keeper who can pull off Gordan Banks or Schmichael style acrobatics for save after save. We just need a reliable shot stopper with a cool head between the posts. I've heard and read repeatedly that Wenger's guiding philosphy is to attack and win games by scoring more goals than the other team rather than build the foundations of a successful side on a rock solid defence. I have no idea if Steve Bould is the man to help achieve this or what happens at training but I can't see Bould getting involved from the bench on matchdays. He looks like the silent partner. I'm also frustrated by the wage structure and paying mega pounds per week to very mediocre players, some of whom are nowhere near the First Team. I don't think we can blame Gazidis and Kroenke directly for players performing like headless chickens, that's down to the coaching. However, they should be challenging Wenger on his results and the performances of the players. I don't have a problem with a new guy coming in who can raise performance levels and get the players doing very basic stuff properly. I'd also welcome clearing out all the deadwood and shirkers who hide when the going gets tough out there on the pitch. I don't want Wenger hounded and booed out of Arsenal though because he has done a fantastic amount for Arsenal. The trouble is that all of that is in the past tense and there are no signs that he will recapture that former magic again. If we truly have a Board full of lazy fat cats content to sit back and lap up the profits delivered by 3rd and 4th place finishes and punitive match ticket prices then we are all well and truly screwed. If they see sense and wake up to the reality that weekly onfield mediocrity cannot sustain all that cream forever then they will challenge Wenger on transfer, policy and player preparation matters. Surely something has to change because the current playing regime is unsustainable and the signs of decline are unmistakeable.

  59. Ron

    Mar 25, 2013, 11:34 #33560

    As a business, the Club are entltled to be pleased with him. Look at the Clubs value now and the value of it once the Stadium is paid off. Its immense and the shareholders will fill their collective boots once the Clubs debts are more less clear. As a football Club, hes a busted flush and the Club is a spent force. The Club holds itself out as a 'big Club', whatever the true meaning of that is. It must at least mean that it demands success at the sporting level ie on the pitch as much as the business level surely?. If it does, how has he survived? Add to this that his failure isnt really to do with the lack of spending per se vis what other top Clubs can spend, its more about spending a lot of money on poor players and paying non achievers far too much for far too long. Losses to Bham Cty and Bradford et al and collapses occuring too often and occuring so dramatically down the years, plus throwing Cup games for years on end, due to the Coach not rating such tournaments is about poor mamagement and lousy tactics and cosseting players who lack the will and drive and desire to achieve in their chosen careers. Dont let Wenger blind you by his 'financial doping' theory as being the reason for his failure as its only partially correct. AW needs to go and go honourably by admitting his way is no longer the right way. He wont do it though and there are 7 million reasons why he wont do so going into his pocket every year plus a Board room that no longer has the remotest interest in sporting achievement. Its a disgrace, but its what football has become sadly. Fans iterests and views are irrelevant now and Arsenal appear to have no concerns in more or less telling its fans how they feel. Those who want it still have the choice as do those whove given up on it and them.

  60. Dan

    Mar 25, 2013, 11:16 #33559

    The simple answer is NO!! Wenger out!!

  61. NO Defence

    Mar 25, 2013, 11:11 #33558

    Wenger OUT. Eight years, no trophies. 24 pts off the top, lost CC final to Birmingham FFS, humiliated by Bradfoed and Blackburn in the same season, struggling to keep pace with a Spuds team that spend over £50 mil a year less in wages! Shocking signings all round from Gervinho to Giroud, rubbish tactics and full of excuses. NEVER takes responsibility. Always soeone else's fault. You now have Chelsi and Spud fans singin 'ARSENE WENGER WE WANT YOU TO STAAAAY'!!! What an embarrassment and tells you everything you need to know that Wenger's biggest fans are Spuds and Chelski. WENGER OUT.

  62. Wolfgang

    Mar 25, 2013, 10:39 #33557

    Addidas are baulking at a new deal. This to me indicates the Arsenal brand has gone a down a notch or two. Failure to qualify for the cl,could in theory,set back Arsenal for years. As for Wenger,he has to prov e he is still the man otherwise I am afraid he will have to bite the bullet for causing Arsenal to decline so much the last few years.