We don’t want to copy the Germans … or do we?

Bundesliga v Premier League



We don’t want to copy the Germans … or do we?

Dortmund: Cheap tickets, beer in the stands and safe standing


It must be great to be a Borussia Dortmund or Bayern Munich supporter right now. Tickets are cheap; you can drink beer on a noisy and partisan terrace; you have 51% ownership of your club, and your team has just battered a spoilt Spanish giant to get to the Champions League Final.

A few years ago I took part in a BBC radio discussion about rip-off ticket prices in English football. One of my main point-raisers was the gap between what we now pay in England compared with what German fans do. The price difference is indisputable in the German’s favour, but what defenders of the Premier League always tried to get away with was the argument that German teams could not attract the best players and were weaker in the Champions League. On this radio show, the journalist who was counter-arguing my points used that very argument. With two German teams in the 2013 Champions League Final, and with no English team beyond the last 16, I’d like to know what meaningful case there now is to justify the gap in admission prices between the Premier League and the Bundesliga?

In any case, the standard of football comparison is not one that many of us accepted. Even if we were watching the best teams in Europe, it was meaningless because so many people got priced out of a stadium which had also become soulless and devoid of atmosphere. Even with the best team in the land, what’s the point in paying so much, just to be in a quiet stadium full of passionless spectators? For example, Old Trafford, which currently homes England’s best football team, has become an unremarkable and soulless experience.

I recall taking part in another BBC radio debate, on the theme of bringing back terracing. Once again, I highlighted the German example and how they’re proving to the world that standing is safe. Once off air, I listened to the remainder of the show and remember one of the hosts smugly saying “I don’t think we want to copy the Germans in what we do, we’re not that desperate.”

Going from the data I’ve gathered, English football fans beg to differ from that ignorant statement. That data is no more advanced than talking to fans up and down the country, but the message is clear: hardly anyone speaks in favour of this sanitised modern football culture in England. When supporters talk to me on the subject of the game losing its soul, German football regularly gets brought up as the benchmark of where we want to be. So the conclusion is that if the German model is proving a great example, then we should look to copy it and yes, we are that desperate

My book Theatre of Silence got translated into German (under a different title) because, according to the publisher from Hamburg, their football has lost its soul. Really?!! Well I don’t have much sympathy for their plight, and that’s a bit like an Englishman in America whinging about the NHS to a sick person who has no medical insurance.


NEW! Subscribe to our weekly Gooner Fanzine newsletter for all the latest news, views, and videos from the intelligent voice of Arsenal supporters since 1987.

Please note that we will not share your email address with any 3rd parties.


Article Rating

Leave a comment

Sign-in with your Online Gooner forum login to add your comment. If you do not have a login register here.

23
comments

  1. Canterbury Gooner

    May 05, 2013, 16:53 #34591

    Every club in Germany has to submit evidence of how it will (at least) break even before each season. If that had been the case here City would be mid-table mediocrity still, and Chelsea would be (probably) in administration. Then us and United would be the two Juggernauts as before.

  2. Brigham

    May 05, 2013, 15:51 #34589

    Dortmund fans were immense at our ground and the noise they made was outstanding, THAT is what support is all about. Germany have it right and I think they are about to go and dominate Europe in style, a bit like in 1939! The German FA have it spot on, they look after their fans, their clubs and ultimately, their interests. Fair play to them.

  3. Dixon Arsene Seaman

    May 05, 2013, 11:36 #34580

    @RJ - I vowed to never go back to the CCC bowl (corporate cash cow) after being told to sit down by a prawn sandwich muncher for trying to create an atmosphere when the team needed our support. I wrote to my MP on the subject of Safe Standing and he patronised me with some stuff about how the atmosphere at Arsenal was still good for games like Barca at home. Talk about missing the point! Okay, Highbury wasn't ALWAYS rocking, but the point is this: SS would IMPROVE the atmosphere. This is 100% irrefutable. And those who wish to sit will have a choice to do so. Choice is the key word. Better atmosphere and better choice. People who stand and block the view of others are annoying those who'd rather sit in silence and not contribute to the atmosphere. Put like-minded people together = everyone is happy.

  4. exiled&dangerous

    May 05, 2013, 9:39 #34572

    We're also ripped off by the rail companies, so actually getting to a game is prohibitively expensive these days too. Talking to a friend last night in the pub, we're seriously looking at a cheap flight to Germany next year to see Dortmund play, it would be cheaper than getting the train up from Cornwall to see Arsenal.

  5. WeAreBuildingATeamToDominate

    May 05, 2013, 8:03 #34571

    The standard in England has been slowly falling every year since 2007/08 season. It is in Sky and Talksport and the BBC's interest to try to pretend it is the best league in the world, in order to keep the sheep buying subscriptions and watching and listening. And the myriad legions of washed-up ex-pros who are making a comfortable living out of appearing on all their crap programmes are buying into the scene too. Ah hang on - suddenly it's not the best league in the world anymore, it's "the most exciting league in the world".......which translates as the league where who makes the least defensive mistakes and hustles the midfield into losing the ball, rises to the top. English football always has, and always will be, regardless of who is playing it, 10 years behind the rest of the world. On the subject of Germany, within the EU they are the only net exporter (meaning they sell more than they buy) by virtue of keeping their manufacturing base and investing into the former Eastern bloc. And they still love a lot of regulation, but not the ridiculous amount of red tape we have to put up with.

  6. Wombledin

    May 05, 2013, 1:58 #34570

    If German coaches and their model and style of playing is working, as it obviously is, we should move more to that model. Arsenal's French model is no longer working or desired. It is too effete, too arrogant, too eccentric, too artistic, too inconsistent, just like their national team. All typical French qualities. I would definitely like to see a cool change away from the French culture pervading Arsenal. The Board should go hell for leather for Joachim Low or Klopp by all means.

  7. Tom O'B

    May 04, 2013, 22:14 #34569

    I quite simple - and VERY relevant to Arsenal (duh?!). In two words imho - Fan Experience. Standing with your 'own', ie I used to stand on the North Bank and love all the chanting and singing, be it 55,000 v Liverpool or 15,000 v West Brom. Whatever the game, level, where we were it was also about the fan experience. Of course Thatcher and cronies saw to it that that would end. The Taylor Report was over the top, we never had fences at Highbury - ever - yet we had to go along with stuff that another club's fans instigated. Now we get a totally sanitised 'experience' where moving stadium to 'compete' has obv ACTUALLY meant taking us for mugs while making profit after profit, season after soulless season. 'Eight Seasons Without a Trophy'TM is just a media myth that, ironically, is taken up by the fans of Tottenham (52 years and counting since their, um, '2nd' league title and of course Liverpool - 23 years, and counting. Anyway, all in all - on AND off the pitch - its just not worth it anymore. Literally.

  8. CT Gooner

    May 04, 2013, 21:44 #34568

    I bet they don't pay there managers 7 million a year either. Although, how much is Pep going to be making???

  9. Old Timer

    May 04, 2013, 13:58 #34567

    You've highlighted clubs' matchday income but I would also be very interested in the cost base of the top Bundesliga clubs -e.g. do they pay their chief execs £2m p.a. Bayern Munich is a members club so there's no controlling shareholder looking to extract dividends or management fees or load the club with the debt incurred by the shareholder in buying the club in the first place. Just take a look at the Bayern Munich website - the cost of annual membership is about what I pay for Silver Membership but Bayern give members discounts on each ticket they buy and waive the booking fee so for a regular fan it more than pays for itself over the season. Another surprise is that their Directors are mostly ex players who therefore understand the game and presumably its administration. Could we say that about most of our Board? The German model is much more attractive to the fans ( well at least to this fan) and seems to have the rosier longterm future. Sadly I think we're stuck with our model forever.

  10. Ron

    May 04, 2013, 12:34 #34566

    Mike - since the german team flopped dismally in 2000 they were made to set up youth academies by the German FA. Their FA is strong and competent unlike the gin quaffing cretinous array of faceless wet farts we have here who are owned by Manchester Utd 1st and the Prem lge 2nd generally and who are happy as long as they have their jollies and freebies on tap at all the big tournies. Half of the bundesliga players have been schooled in the academies. Only 2 clubs arent supporter owned, average price per ticket is £10.00. Full stadia yet every fixture in top 2 leagues is televised! German lge is now 60% german. Bayern is ironically the biggest problem as the others have to catch up as theyre so powerful. Even so, they bailed Dortmund out in 2005 to avoid their bankruptcy. Cd you imagine Man Utd bailing out Everton with an unsecured loan? No, of course not. Cant wait for the SKY and associated TV bubble to burst here, grounds to slowly empty and wages to spiral down and to see ALL of these foreign 'cdt give two tosses' players like Arshavin et al scurry out like the skiving rats they all are.

  11. chris dee

    May 04, 2013, 11:46 #34564

    Not everything is great in Germany but I love the fact that the German clubs have a majority of German players in their teams, that the majority of coaches are German and that all the clubs are owned by Germans. This pattern is broadly replicated in Italy,Spain,Holland and France where the priority is their own players and their own coaches. What a contrast to the Premier League clubs who dropped their knickers for Sky faster than you can say Rupert Murdoch, at the mere glimse of lucre. We now have games between the top clubs with only 3 out of 22 players being English, 3 out of 19 clubs with English managers and clubs owned by Americans,Qatarsi,Malaysians and even a Russian 'business man'. We now have a league where even the most average player,aspecially if they are foreign,can earn £50k -£60k a week for just sitting on the bench and in some cases, as Arsenal fans know,not even on the bench. And when the Premiership was formed we were told grandly that it would definately benefit our national side.That worked out well didn't it? The Premier League,the high class prostitute of World Football

  12. Robert Exley

    May 04, 2013, 11:43 #34563

    @RJ - if you don't want to stand there will be an option to sit. No-one is addvocating an all standing stadium. Just the option of safe standing

  13. Ron

    May 03, 2013, 22:44 #34562

    I dont know the minutae of how Ger football is ran, but i know its regulated cleverly, which is what the Germans do with all aspects of their economy and always have. Its no secret to them why they've largely bucked the euro wide recession and they way football is ran is a small part of it. That Premier League with its naff standard of football is ran on SKY hype and sheer greed. Theres not an iota of thought for the fans by all but one or two Clubs in it and while we're on the question of atmospheres, the atmosphere at Arsenal is dire. Thats due to the diet of tedious tippy tap tip, no players who the fans can relate too, no top performers, no real zest or heart shown by weak gutless players for so long, we've forgotten when we last saw it but mainly because the ordinary fan has been flushed down the toilet and replaced by well heeled, types who 'found' football in 2006 and who s natural inclination is to clap softly and murmur 'well done'on the rare occasion they see the odd bit of brilliance as they check the programme to see if the scorer was actually Dennis Bergkamp (after all he was there at his testimonial in July 06 and they heard he was good) or some guy they've not yet got used too. Such types wdt understand tribal football support if you threw them a bow and arrow, a piebald pony and a tepee. They might be very nice genteel people (and ive met a lot who are), but by and large they cdt get passionate with Angelina Jolie in high heels and suspenders. You guys who go the stadium know the ones im talking about dont you? They eat that garbage food that i wdt give to the dog and pay the prices without blinking. Arsenal are laughing their nuts off at these people while they feed them the 'drama' of the 4th place cup each season as a sop to their idiocy.In fact if th Financial Times runs articles about Arsenals balance sheet and commercial viabilty. its then that they get closest to creaming it over their latte's , whatever they see or dont see on that green patch, you know, the ....the .. pitch is it?

  14. Alsace Lorraine de Totteridge

    May 03, 2013, 22:23 #34561

    It's all about greed. Somewhere along the way, someone taught us that greed is good. Was it Frau Thatchler or Gordon Gecko? I forget. In any event, when Murdoch is dead and the sky bubble has burst, and even the couch spuds have tired of the dreary spectacle that is the Premiership, billions of pounds will have washed through the league leaving precious little good behind it. I would love to tax premier league players at 1000% on every penny they earned above £200,000 take home a year. We would lose some players but there would still be plenty of incentive for good players to play the game. Not only can you not motivate someone on £200k a week, frankly, if you are getting screwed for your ticket while they are wallowing in the slush of easy money, you don't like them very much. That doesn't make for fun.

  15. Mike

    May 03, 2013, 13:06 #34555

    The german leagues have always been healthy -their national team has been testiment to that - although I too would like to know how the financial models work there?

  16. Incredibly Worried

    May 03, 2013, 13:00 #34554

    what we should really discuss is the terrible prospect of the Bundesliga becoming the darling of world football, with the assorted tycoons and a large chunk of EPL TV cash suddenly going to the Fatherland. I mean, what are the Chesea and City fans going to do then?

  17. UTU

    May 03, 2013, 12:59 #34553

    German Football is successful because they balance the needs of the fans with commercial costs of the game. German football is regulated, no foreign or corporate ownership allowed. Germans do not tolerate being ripped off they protest and take action. An German final at Wembley proves that putting money and financial gain first as the Premier League does in England does not produce the best football teams. As for The Arsenal, I won't pay rip off prices to watch an average team while making Billionaires and Millionaires even richer.

  18. Emirates Corporate Cash Cow

    May 03, 2013, 12:16 #34551

    I agree with every word of this article. The German model is what we should aspire to. Here's a quote 'We could charge more than £104. Let's say we charged £300. We'd get £2m more in income but what's £2m to us? In a transfer discussion you argue about that sum for five minutes. But the difference between £104 and £300 is huge for the fan. We do not think the fans are like cows, who you milk. Football has got to be for everybody. That's the biggest difference between us and England.' - Uli Hoeness, Bayern president.

  19. SB

    May 03, 2013, 12:11 #34550

    It's all about the wages. Lewandowski is on about £20k a year along with most of the Dortmund players. Our wage bill is 5 times bigger than theirs.

  20. maguiresbridge gooner

    May 03, 2013, 11:59 #34549

    We could do worse and indeed have been,cheap tickets, beer in the stands, what the partisans have put up with over the last eight seasons might even have been bearable.

  21. Stroud Green Road Boy

    May 03, 2013, 11:26 #34547

    @Graham, Arsenal play in the English league. And have the highest ticket prices in the world for what is quite clearly a lower standard of football than Dortmund and Munich play. Pretty pertinent, I would say.

  22. RJ

    May 03, 2013, 10:45 #34545

    Matthew - Can you explain how the business model works in Germany. Where does the money come from for transfers and wages? If ticket prices are low, fans own 51% of the shares - how does the club get funded? Dropping prices at the Arsenal is not going to magically lead to more cash in the club is it? Or are you saying that Lewandowski, Robben, Mueller etc are happy to take signficantly lower wages than Chamakh, Gervinho to play in this Elysian land of beer and standing. ON the subject of standing - I liked standing when I was 20, but at 45 I love the nice comfy seats at the Emirates and I will continue to park my Arsenal on mine. Personally, I remain as passionate as I ever did (which is very). And as to atmosphere, there seems to be some rose-tinted glasses on Highbury - without doubt, it absolutely rocked on some days, but on others it was quiet and gloomy. But let's not worry about re-writing history shall we.

  23. Graham Simons

    May 03, 2013, 10:00 #34543

    Great but what in the name of Barnacle's beard does this have to do with Arsenal?