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1. BADARSE

   Jun 14, 2013, 13:55 #35753

   Whoa Chris!Not so defensive.My compliments to Theo Jensen were meritorious.His comments and style were all I claimed them to be.I can assure you though that,my plaudits were definitely not an indirect attack on you!Surely complimenting an opponent,or someone who has a slightly different approach,or diagnosis, on a job well done, doesn't become an attack on a team member.I have complimented you before as I share your direction I think I would like to see Arsenal move in.Maintaining stability and consistency,at least.Lighten up Gooner,I bet you and Theo Jensen,if you met,would get on like a house on fire,if so,please don't ask me to stand by with buckets of water though.

2. Theo Jensen

   Jun 14, 2013, 13:10 #35751

   That's very kind of you BADARSE- it's nice to see that some gooners can appreciate arguments who of the opposite viewpoint, it shows a lot of maturity and flexibility of thought. I'm always open to arguments of the opposite case as I have outlined, and enjoy a more balanced approach. Chris, call it 'teasing' if you like, though not exactly alleviating even on those terms, the fact is you are very insulting. I spent 3 days solidly researching and writing an article, you admitted to having only skim read it and then labelled it 'pure conjecture'. You tried to undermine the respected discipline of history which I excel at and such behaviour is constant in your posts. These insults are mitigated only by the fact they are so clearly unsubstantiated. Say what you like about you could argue against what I've said. In the same way you'll show Giroud is doing better than Chamakh would because you have the unique ability to see such transpirations. The fact remains that all your arguments favour Wenger in the utmost and that is almost certainly because you have reached that conclusion first as I've shown, contrary to my method. I think it better to address the cause than the effect.

3. Chris

   Jun 14, 2013, 9:38 #35739

   BADARSE - I'll take that as a marginally indirect attack on me, as I'm sure it was intended. You may have found Theo's incontinent attack on me 'poetry' but, unless you have taken the trouble to go therough the archives and read all of the many threads that he refers to in it, I don't think you're qualified to make a judgement on most of its contents. Suffice to say that if I did have the time to gothrough the points and counter them, I could and would do so. And I'll say again - where are the insults, especially those of a 'highly personal' manner that Theo alludes to? It's not as if Theo hasn't insulted me on this very page. Nonetheless, if someone shows me that I have insulted Theo in the way he suggests, I'll apologise.

4. BADARSE

   Jun 14, 2013, 9:09 #35737

   Theo Jensen,if you aren't already aware,I am not for Arsene Wenger being kicked out of the Arsenal.That said,I wanted to mention your post no.38222.It may sound terribly mawkish,but I think it is the most coherent,well-constructed,and illuminating post, I have ever read on this website.The words lifted off the screen like poetry.Keep it up dude!

5. Chris

   Jun 13, 2013, 22:26 #35726

   Yeah yeah, Theo, same ole same ole. I may have missed something but really, where are these 'personal insults' you keep going on about? I don't think I've insulted you at all - teased alittle, yes, but insulted in a highly peronsal manner? I don't think so. Show me and if I agree,or even if I think you've got a point, I'll apologise.

6. Theo Jensen

   Jun 13, 2013, 13:36 #35706

   On this occasion I did have to check back because this comments thread is actually more interesting than any others I've seen for a while. I think it's worth saying that in the company of probably the two best posters on here, SGRB and Green Hut, that it is pointless arguing with the AKBs. They've made up their mind already and look for ways to fit the conclusion. Just like people of faith often do. As to this idea they spread that their blind support makes them better Arsenal fans, if in the 1930s the British government wasn't rearming itself properly, who would be the more patriotic- the ones who blindly follow and defer all to those in charge, or those who question them in the hope of the problem being rectified. As for this boy Chris, anyone would have their buttons pushed by constantly being insulted as personally as he does. He would use conjecture as usual to hope that he has a better CV, but even if this were the case, such a reality would simply bring his 'credentials' into question given that he can only provide personal insults over reasonable analysis. I'll take my arguments seriously because this club deserves the best, my unconditional support happens in the stadium on matchdays.

7. maguiresbridge gooner

   Jun 13, 2013, 12:17 #35697

   augie, very nicely put you should have saved it and posted it as an article as a response.

8. Stroud Green Road Boy

   Jun 13, 2013, 10:38 #35686

   To clarify for you, PPP, it is not your 'unconditional support' Green Hut was pointing out is hypocritical, rather saying you're 'not interested' in the views of malcontents whilst responding to them again and again and again. That is, by definition, hypocrisy. And "the Anti-Arsenal set just seem to want us all to break down and cry, denounce Arsenal and admit to you all we have no future and we should all just pack up and go home" is just patent nonsense without basis in any comment you will have read on here. Wanting change and being critical is not 'anti-Arsenal', try and understand that once and for all, as all you're doing here is misrepresenting the views of others and twisting yourself into knots of contradiction, so perhaps you'd be better off sticking to singing all night and raising a glass to Wenger as he continues to lead us through results that are record-breaking in their awfulness. It's this kind of mindless 'unconditional support' that helps keep the '4th is a trophy' years going -I can't think of anything more 'anti-Arsenal' than that.

9. augie

   Jun 13, 2013, 8:21 #35676

   6.He is still very sought after - by who ? Maybe those that, like yourself, follow the reputation of the man rather than judge the performance.Do you think that doesnt happen in modern day football ? Look at the clubs who went after beckhams signitures and the one's that are supposedly after shrek - neither are as good as the reputation suggests but you they are in demand. Btw he is NOT Arsenal's most successful manager - trophies per season will show you that GG is way ahead of wenger and seeing as you like using stats and graphs, that point should be an accepted fact 5.Nobody could match wenger's level of success with the same level of money spent ? Try getting the man to spend what he has available then and see if we improve. He has constantly declared in recent seasons that he has money to spend and if you buy into "the man of integrity" rep that wenger has, then surely you believe that he has had funds at his disposal and hasnt used them. Why is that ? Have we needed a top quality keeper, centre back and defensive midfielder in recent seasons ? If you agree then why didnt he buy them ? Maybe cos he hasnt seen the need to do so and I would suggest that should worry you 4. Still considered a big club....by whom ? Our quality players who look to jump ship on an all too regular basis cos they know we are going nowhere ? Other big clubs see as us nothing more than a feeder club and plunder our team whenever they see fit - we are the proper big club's bitches 3. I remember the early wenger years too....how long should he be allowed to live off the back of them ? Ridiculous point. 2. We should stick with wenger cos you are afraid of change ? Standing still is more important to you than looking to progress ? His replacement may not set the world alight but dont you want to progress ? If you claim that we are still a big club then shouldnt we want more than an annual knock out with the first half decent team we meet in the champs lge ? Should we want more than our dismal effort and attitude to domestic cups ? Shouldnt we want more than a manager declaring 4th place a success and watching our players celebrate it more than manure did when winning the league ? 1. Do you want and expect a proper level playing field or just one that allows us to compete with the chavs and citeeh ? I mean do you want clubs like wigan, sunderland and stoke for example, having the same financial power as us ? That is a proper level playing field and it has never existed and never will. It makes me laff when I hear Gooners looking for a level playing field when for years we have cherry picked the best talent from all those small clubs without a thought about it but now we are one of those less wealthy clubs the system is unfair

10. Green Hut

    Jun 13, 2013, 7:38 #35674

    ppp- It's a bit late to pretend you're all mature and grown-up after 'shame on you Green Hut you sad sad little man. PS It's happened agaaaain!!'

11. ppp

    Jun 13, 2013, 0:01 #35672

    Well Green Hut you can't say I didn't try. I will enjoy next season as I enjoy every season, win lose or draw. I'm sorry you see my unconditional support for Arsenal as hypocritical and hilarious. I really am. I hope you find what you're looking for in life generally as well as in football. Good luck in the future!

12. Green Hut

    Jun 12, 2013, 23:43 #35671

    ppp- I like your messages very much, they're hilarious, I was just pointing out the hypocrisy in your last one. And I certain don't want you to disappear as you often do Wenger's cause more harm than good. I've no idea what other fans are saying in the pubs, I don't listen in, but I do know the Wenger poll on this very site currently stands at 65%-35% in favour of changing the manager as of now, which considering Online Gooner must be one of, if not THE most popular Arsenal fans website, must give a fair barometer of the general feeling amongst Arsenal fans. And if you and your pals really raised your glasses to Wenger after the Blackburn game, I hope they were all doubles.

13. ppp

    Jun 12, 2013, 23:01 #35670

    No offence Green Hut because I'm sure you're a nice boy in real life - but if you don't like my messages then you shouldn't read them. This is an Arsenal website (I believe!) so I feel more than comfortable posting multiple messages and not ashamed of myself as you seem to want me to be. In fact the Anti-Arsenal set just seem to want us all to break down and cry, denounce Arsenal and admit to you all we have no future and we should all just pack up and go home. None of us are going to do that Green Hut so I extend the invitation to you that I offered to Stroud Green Road Boy. Drop us a line at the start of next season and you and yours are more than welcome at the local to celebrate being Arsenal through and through - you'll find plenty of talk about yesteryear from the old timers and I myself hold gorgeous George close to my heart still, so don't worry that we're johnny come latelys because I can promise you we ain't. Obviously we don't agree about Wenger - I want him to stay and you don't. In the pubs around the grove (and believe me we know em) I just don't hear the Wenger hate that we get on The Gooner all the time. We all gnash our teeth when he screws things up (which I've always admitted he does) but we all still raise a glass to him as soon as the match is done. win lose or draw. I'm convinced that if you join us then you will soften your stance on Wenger at least enough to give him one more year to prove he's still got what it takes. I'd be really surprised if you didn't. BADARSE you are a top boy. Swaying on the North Bank I'm sure we crossed paths a few times.

14. BADARSE

    Jun 12, 2013, 22:46 #35669

    Good lad Green Hut, we are brothers in arms. Years ago I had a heated discussion with a really good friend, in fact the older brother of a good friend, about politics. Finally I said to him,'We both want the same things, and to arrive at the same place,so I see us walking down that same road, but on different sides of the street!'We are still good friends...still on opposite sides of the street.Good Old Arsenal.

15. Green Hut

    Jun 12, 2013, 22:20 #35668

    BADARSE- You won't have read me calling for Usmanov because that's not what I want, and I agree with everything you say on that score. Self-sustainabilty works at Arsenal, but just not the ultra-conservative way Wenger does it.

16. BADARSE

    Jun 12, 2013, 21:48 #35667

    Green Hut,I just want Arsenal to succeed,or do I?You see,that depends on certain factors,as no doubt is the case with ppp,and others of a similar ilk.I've seen strands of plaintive pleas, that Usmanov would be our saviour.The very idea sticks in my craw.Apart from the idea, that like the Chavs and the Oilers,we would be attempting to buy a trophy,this man is a villain.He is crooked.Accept money to cure your ills is between a person and their conscience,to accept tainted money for the same result, and it becomes the conscience of all.Now,who would agree with that concept?Who would disagree?No doubt all Arsenal fans,same love of the club,but wanting success in a different way.Neither can claim ascendency,they are just different ways.

17. Green Hut

    Jun 12, 2013, 21:15 #35666

    ppp- For someone so disinterested in the thoughts of those calling for change, it's remarkable that you summoned up the energy to post SEVEN times in this thread ranting at us malcontents. But you keep flying the flag for Arsene FC my sentimental friend, some of us just want the best for The Arsenal FC (formed 1886, not 1996).

18. BADARSE

    Jun 12, 2013, 20:24 #35664

    PPP, love your style buddy. If only I didn't live 100 miles away,and rarely get a ticket to ride nowadays,otherwise I'd be singing and dancing with you and the lads.Mind you my singing voice was honed on the North Bank,so it wouldn't go down too well in an expensive wine bar,or cocktail lounge.Isn't that where those, who refuse to slate Arsene Wenger take a tipple?Keep on keeping on ppp.

19. ppp

    Jun 12, 2013, 18:49 #35663

    Like I said Stroud Green Road Boy, what you think of my intelligence/logic etc is of no concern to me. But thank you for your thoughts anyway. Describing someone as 'Anti-Arsenal' is nothing to do with wanting a change of manager. On this website and some others it's a very easy thing to spot the Anti-Arsenal posters. They have nothing positive to say ever. Every post is an aggressive rant that seeks to degrade, disparage and destroy our club whether it be an attack on the manager, the players, the fans, the ground or the tea lady. Failing to provide a single positive message amongst your hundreds in the last couple of years leads me to conclude that you are indeed Anti-Arsenal. Being Anti-Arsenal is your prerogative and I'm not even asking you to stop - i'm just letting you know we aren't interested. We're having a great time! If you want to join us down the pub where we sing the night away win lose or draw then you are most welcome to join us next season. I'm sure you would soon change your mind and realise how damn enjoyable it is being an Arsenal boy. Meeting real Arsenal fans face to face you'd be surprised how much of a laugh we are.

20. Van de Ed

    Jun 11, 2013, 20:25 #35647

    @ Stevieo - absolutely spot one!! Le Boss uses our club as a development/finishing school for his country's national team - 'Les Bleus'. Whoever thinks we'll see big name signings this summer ot thinks we'll win ANYTHING next season needs to be carted away by the men in white coats asap! As Wenger always says, "the key is to keep this squad together". So there you have it; the recovered Diaby & the returning Ryo will be like 'new signings'. The loaned out deadwood from last season will stay if there are no new takers. 19 yr old Sanogo from Auxerre comes in and with the already released 3 players gone, voila - we have a squad barely challenging for 4th place again next season!!

21. Alsace Lorraine de Totteridge

    Jun 11, 2013, 17:28 #35639

    Once you accept that not winning anything is actually the only standard against which Arsenal can be measured, whether we come 4th or 10th in the League actually doesn't matter very much apart from money. Most importantly however, 1) we are getting worse 2)We are not having any fun and 3) we have no hope. We have to get rid to reverse those positions.

22. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Jun 11, 2013, 13:28 #35623

    @ppp - call it a stance, a point, a statement, call it whatever you want. Describing people who want a change of manager as 'anti-Arsenal' is poor, illogical reasoning, whether you agree with the need for change or not. What needs to 'click' in your head is the facility to comprehend that. To describe people like myself as 'anti-Arsenal' is at best, as I said before, a laughably transparent attempt to silence your opponents. Or possibly you genuinely believe that because you actually lack the subtlety of mind to distinguish between Arsenal and Arsene. It doesn't take much intelligence to make the distinction, but based on your comments up to now I'm quite prepared to believe you don't possess the small amount required.

23. GG89

    Jun 11, 2013, 8:43 #35592

    Lots of Arsenal mamngers have won the league and all of them took risks trying to do it and it went wrong 12th place for Graham in 1995 for example.... but the difference is Wenger doesn´t take risks, is concern with existence and the gooners are unlikely to win anything.

24. theeternaloptimist

    Jun 10, 2013, 15:21 #35572

    100% in agreement

25. BADARSE

    Jun 10, 2013, 13:20 #35567

    In the melting pot of debate I rudely overlooked registering my thanks for the article,so thank you Chris Moore,I enjoyed the clarity you conveyed.With that comment posted, I would just say to Red Member,I don't believe the fanbase is split.We have polarised views certainly,but the extreme approaches,and attitudes, registered on these forums,is not necessarily a fair representation of the total family of Arsenal supporters.I,though in Arsene's corner at the moment, do not regard myself in opposition to half the Arsenal fans in the world.I stand quite close to that imaginary dividing line,marking the centre ground,prepared to move one way or the other,depending on the future.Good Old Arsenal!

26. Tony Evans

    Jun 10, 2013, 12:12 #35566

    Ditto Ron but that's only if I can be bothered, especially if Wenger has had his contract extended by then.

27. Red Member

    Jun 10, 2013, 11:16 #35565

    I haven't read either article yet but just the titles suggest the biggest problem at the club today - the fanbase is split. And I have come to the conclusion over the last year that for there ever to be a coming together then the club needs a fresh start with a new manager. Arsene Wenger has done so much for the club but he is unable to carry the club further than it is already(and I think he knows this)However there are 7.5 million reasons why he stays believing that he can.

28. Chris Moore

    Jun 10, 2013, 9:53 #35564

    Interesting comments/debate. I made it very clear in my article that I support Wenger, but this does not mean I wish him to overstay his welcome. Some think he already has, I think not. . . I do believe he is currently the best man for the job. Yes I want silverware as much as any of you - when I dressed my son in his first Arsenal kit and took a photo of him in front of the TV just before the CC final kick off, I was not aware of the devastation I would later feel when we didn't win that worthless tin-pot cup...! So now that Ferguson has gone and FFP should be taking effect, I think that this summer and next season will be a defining moment for Wenger. I give him 2 seasons to show that we can compete for the title. If there is not an improvement, ie. we make a genuine challenge for the league, then I think he should step down. Up to that final day I will support him. I'm not quite sure where that puts me on the AKB WOB scale, but it must be somewhere in the middle. What I don't like is this calling for his head and the abuse some direct towards the man.

29. Ron

    Jun 10, 2013, 9:33 #35563

    Cheer up you lot. This debate needs closing. Its the Ashes series soon! Forget footie and Wenger and The Prem, none of em give a hoot about any of us. Test cricket Beats football hands down!! See you next August.

30. BADARSE

    Jun 10, 2013, 7:41 #35562

    Morning Campers.Well two very good posts.Firstly from Robert Exley,no surprise there.From the other side of the net we have Rocky RIP,with a succinct analysis of his position.They are,in my opinion,just either side of that dividing line,possibly so close that they could touch. I think most Arsenal supporters are encamped in this grey area,as I am myself.Difficult to quantify,but I think the main mass is closer to Rocky RIP,than to Robert Exley;yet as we know,majority doesn't make it right,just a more popular view.Yes,this vehicle does attract more extreme and/or polarised views,that is clearly understood.This naturally invites, and provokes a response.Then we are up and running with a crazy form of verbal tennis,constantly being drawn away from the original topic of the article.Often it descends into a,'My Dad can fight your Dad'.I personally enjoy the diversions,as when Copenhagen'94 came up,but back to the main point.In general most fans occupy that middle ground,I spoke of.This season is different to those that have gone before,we live in a time of 'uncharted waters',and many hope this will be a defining one for AFC.Some have thrown in the towel,and may yet be proven as the vanguard of a much larger movement by season's end.Many hold that towel in their hands.'Who is right or wrong?'Is the tacitly proffered question.If for one moment people stepped away from the confrontational brink,and regarded the opposing view as different,rather than right or wrong,we could reach a level of mutual regard.Surely we all want 'success',whatever we conceive that to be,though there are different criteria in measuring it,and certainly some manners of achieving that same success would be anathema to others.Any who cannot see the very lucid position I place many AFC fans in,may well be 'sleepers',though some would just be plain stubborn.Now who have I heard that criticism levelled at before?

31. bunch

    Jun 10, 2013, 6:36 #35561

    I think this article was fairly reasonable until the comparison of managerial stability with Wenger, to the managerial merry-go-round at Chelsea. Let us not forget that Chelsea have won 3 Premier league titles under two different managers, a Champions League under another manager, a Europa League under yet another manager, four FA Cups and a League cup all since we last saw a real piece of silverware. Whatever Roman has done, he's managed to keep the Silverware coming in and CL qualification as well.

32. Green Hut

    Jun 10, 2013, 1:37 #35560

    Rocky RIP- I'm sure I often label fans as AKBs who aren't but when you're typing on your phone in a train it's a lot easier than typing 'fans who can see Wenger's faults but believe that because of past glories he has earned more time to turn things around' so forgive me if I make the same mistake again. Obviously within our massive fanbase there are wide-ranging views on Wenger rather than the polarised ones you often find on here, but that's always going to happen on a football fans messageboard and it certainly makes for a more heated debate. My patience finally snapped with Wenger at the end the 2011 January transfer window and watching him continue to play ethics and morals with my very hard earned season ticket money since then has only strengthened my views. Of course he'll spend more money this year, we've got more, everyone's got more, but I don't see any change in his attitude to money, an attitude that has been to the detriment of the team and the fans. It might not bother some people, but it irritates the hell out of me. If you've not reached the tipping point, or if maybe you never will, then fair enough, but personally I believe the club's standing in the football world HAS gone backwards in recent years, but guess we'll agree to differ on that. Anyway, this love-in is beginning to make me feel a bit queasy, can we get back to the vitriol please?

33. Mandy dodd

    Jun 10, 2013, 0:19 #35559

    Yes saw that about cesc coming back Dixon Et al....we shall see ....and as for the Owen coyle suggestion ....what can anyone say to that?

34. LJB

    Jun 09, 2013, 23:47 #35558

    The AKB's are a boring,unimaginative bunch who are terrified of change.Yes,a new manager might be worse,but you know what? He just might be a hell of alot better,and might actually have the tactical knowledge needed to help Arsenal win important matches such as CL knockout ties and Carling Cup finals.Cmon,who thinks Wenger will win any matches against Chelsea this season? In the 8 previous attempts against Mourinho he has won NONE,so what is going to change? A new manager might not saddle Arsenal with all the rubbish that Wenger keeps buying,players like Gervinho,Park,Santos and Chamackh;a new manager might actually pay the asking price of players like Mata instead of hesitating and then being gazumped by Chelsea. Wenger is yesterdays man;a once good manager(never great;his failure to win a European trophy or retain a title excludes him from favourable comparisons with the likes of Fergie,Paisley,Shankly,Mourinho etc) who has refused to adapt to the changing world of football management,and has become the sort of dinosaur that his own arrival in English football signaled the death Knell for.By the time Wenger finally leaves,it will take years to put in place an appropriate managerial structure to enable Arsenal to catch up with their rivals.I have not been paid by any other club or organisation to leave this comment.

35. JAMIE

    Jun 09, 2013, 23:38 #35557

    Nice one Rocky Rip, I would say I was a 3 or 4 when I see the WOB's attacking Wenger for doing ok it makes me want to defend the man. What really annoys me is when people say we haven't competed for 8 years.2006 CL Runners up.2007 CC RU.2008 4 points from being champs.2009 SF CL and FA cup.2011 CC RU. And always top 4.Although not brilliant still not worthy of the sack IMHO. I will always listen to proper debate and negatives about Wenger but not one sided abusive nonsense. I also have never met anybody who thinks Wenger can do no wrong that again is another WOB misrepresentation.

36. Dixon Arsene Seaman

    Jun 09, 2013, 23:26 #35556

    @Mandy Dodd - I don't make a point of reading poisonous Palmer, but I did see he was making yet another bold pronouncement that the deal to sign Cesc back was all done. really?! He always sounds so sure, like he was that Owen Coyle should replace Wenger or than Henry could never cut it as a spearhead striker, but is never brought up on any of it months later.

37. Mandy Dodd

    Jun 09, 2013, 23:19 #35555

    Have a feeling that if things get to the point that Rocky RIPs 4s and 5s really turn for the good, wenger will not have to be asked. This summer he can put himself beyond all that. Green hut I have no idea why wenger did not push the boat out earlier guess we need that info from the objective souls that are Stewart robson or myles palmer

38. Rocky RIP

    Jun 09, 2013, 23:00 #35554

    @ Green Hut - fair enough answer mate to Dixon... So your question is: at what point do the people who don't want Wenger shown the door reach a point where they do? ie. what would it take for this to happen? Since you require an answer, I'll explain my theory. As has been said, the AKB crowd is something of a myth. I don't know a single fan who claims Arsene knows best and is infallible and flawless and without frustrations and beyond poor signings. These people would be insane! George once knew best too, but he lost his magic hat. Can I just make one thing very clear please? Not wanting Wenger out does not automatically make you an AKB. Between the nonsense camps of (apparent) AKB and WOB, there's a large band of fans who fall into neither camp. For me, there's a scale of 1-10. People who want Wenger gone are at 10, those who show blind unconditional faith, the mythical AKBs, are at 0. For every season without a trophy (or more importantly any sign of one) most rational fans drift further towards 10 than before. I don't actually know any fans who are what I'd define as 0, 1 or even 2 on the scale. Many intelligent, sensible and rational fans are 4 or 5. They know what Wenger is capable of (ie. doubles, unbeaten seasons, signing and developing players into the quality of Thierry Henry, Fabregas and RVP, etc), still delivers (finishing above Tottenham every season and finishing in the Champions League spots every season, whilst negotiating the choppy waters of a stadium move during a global recession) and cling to the hope that he can rediscover his magic. Hope born of loyalty and gratitude for the incredible years he gave us before the stadium move. So what exactly would it take to tip his defenders against him? For me, it would be the feeling that we are going irreversibly backwards as a club. At times I've seriously questioned this. eg. after going out to Bradford. As the graph shows, we seem to have found our level at 3rd/4th. As long as don't drop below this level, the conservative, non reactionary fans still hold out hope that he can raise our level back up to the dizzy heights again. We all have a patience threshold and the numbers who wanted him sacked burgeoned early last season and the one before. I feel this Summer could be a big opportunity to raise our game. If our CEO is making big noises and yet we have another painful transfer window, then serious questions need to be asked. This Summer feels different after the lucrative commercial deals have been clinched. If we get off to yet another horrendous start, then tipping point approaches again for many. There's only so much people can be bull-Sh88ed if the club makes a profit at the expense of the team's quality. Sorry to be long-winded, but I hope I speak for many people who you might call AKBs, but aren't. I'm a fence sitting 4 (sometimes 5) on the scale (who is a member of the BSM for reasons unrelated to our manager, as is their remit), and praying the number isn't forced north on the scale. Thanks for reading!

39. Robert Exley

    Jun 09, 2013, 22:11 #35553

    Reggie - in response to your claim that the AMG brigade are fickle trophy hunters, I'd like to point out that I too have previously stood by Wenger, but over the last two years have wrote articles calling for his resignation. The former was because I felt Wenger was owed time to restructure Arsenal post-Ashburton Grove in light of his previous achievements, the latter was because I felt that under his stewardship we were moving away from our objectives and his tactics were causing a decline on the pitch. During the time I was critical of Wenger I also wrote articles criticising those that I felt were being over-vitriolic in calling for his head and even revisionist with regard to his past achievements. Winning trophies are not the be all and end all to me - when I started supporting Arsenal we had a trophy drought as long as this one and crowds were regularly under 20,000. I've seen enough achievements from Arsenal over the years that if I never see Arsenal win another trophy I can still die reasonably happy with what I've seen. That said, I'm not going to sit by quietly if I think someone is taking Arsenal backwards. No matter what they've won for us previously. Am I Wenger in or Wenger out? - well he has 12 months left on his contract and apparently he has money to spend this Summer. As the next season unfolds, the answer will become apparent whether he should stay or go.

40. Green Hut

    Jun 09, 2013, 21:55 #35552

    DixonArseneSeaman- Loved every one of them mate and if that was Arsenal's main objective every season I would want Wenger to be given a new contract tomorrow. But it's not, and I don't.

41. Green Hut

    Jun 09, 2013, 21:37 #35550

    ppp- Reggie wasn't replying to any question, he was making a statement, and he certainly doesn't come across as a Wenger disciple, merely someone who sees things from a different perspective to me. But nice to see a bit of prodding elicited an answer from you after 9 hours, even though you merely copied what someone else had said. Anyway think it's bedtime now, you've got school tomorrow.

42. Dixon Arsene Seaman

    Jun 09, 2013, 21:20 #35549

    @Green Hut - exactly which part of finishing above Tottenham every season for the last 17 years under Wenger did you not enjoy?

43. ppp

    Jun 09, 2013, 20:49 #35548

    Green Hut - Reggie has answered your "defining question" quite succinctly. Wenger will go if he fails to make top four or win a trophy. Sounds reasonable to me. Good post Reggie. Shame on you "Green Hut" you sad sad little man. ps - "It's happenned agaaaaaain!!"

44. Green Hut

    Jun 09, 2013, 20:21 #35547

    Pesho Saulov/UTU- It's been more than 7 hours since you both asked the defining question of this whole debate, that being what scenario or cut off point would lead you to withdraw your support for Wenger and call for change? And not one Wenger supporter has replied. You would imagine unless their devotion is unquestioning and everlasting, someone would have been able to provide an answer, but seeing as this question gets asked regularly on this board and no AKB has ever provided a reasoned coherent response I shouldn't be surprised at more of the same this time, especially as in times of stress they tend to mimic the bunker mentality of their idol. Not too late though, anyone Cult members fancy a stab at it?

45. Reasons to thank Wenger

    Jun 09, 2013, 19:52 #35545

    Number 1. in this charming series - we have finished above our bitter rivals Tottenham in every last one of his seasons in charge of us since arriving in 1996. Seeing off many and varied managers at the helm at the cesspit. Any Arsenal fan that doesn't appreciate this needs their head examined.

46. Reggie

    Jun 09, 2013, 19:43 #35544

    The much maligned AKB's seem to be the fans who are in it for the long haul and will follow The Arsenal through thick and thin, even if Arsene is in charge or not. The AMG's seem to be a more fickle bunch as many of them have stopped attending since the trophies dried up. Being a true fan is far more than open top bus parades and if all your after is cheaply bought silverware then season tickets are always available at the Bridge or if you like the traveling OT. Wenger will be rightly dismissed when he fails to either make the top four or win a cup.

47. greg71

    Jun 09, 2013, 19:38 #35543

    Oh yes Copenhagen when a team with no world class players battled and fought against a technically superior team using tactics to negate their strengths for most of the game,sadly lacking over the last years ! How many more trophies would be around the stadium concourse if some of the above traits had been displayed over the last 8 years,we can all think of least some ?

48. spudmasqueradingasagunner

    Jun 09, 2013, 18:31 #35541

    great article, proves we have the best manager in the world who now that he is no longer financially hamstrung will show it. Long may he stay as our manager it would be a disaster if he left. It may take 5 our 10 years but he will bring us success.

49. BADARSE

    Jun 09, 2013, 18:22 #35540

    ppp,I still have my Copenhagen souvenir shirt,which I try to wear for every European game.It shows the badge,naturally,and the words emblazoned across the chest,'Tastier Than Parma Ham',plus souvenir copies of our unlikely victory in Danish newspapers,but I ate the piece of Danish Blue I brought home...nice memories.Have you dusted down the vhs yet?haha.

50. Charlie H

    Jun 09, 2013, 17:44 #35538

    Brilliant article!

51. Bard

    Jun 09, 2013, 17:25 #35537

    The debates about Wenger, pro/against are too narrow and too tired. He wields a lot of power there no doubt about it but the problems are systemic rather than individual. We have a useless owner, a weak board and a redundant wage policy. Wenger contributes with his poor recent transfers and limited tactical flexibility, but he's not the sole cause of the demise. The club will have to address the wage structure this transfer window or risk a further slide down the pan, that's the crucial question

52. ppp

    Jun 09, 2013, 17:05 #35536

    Stroud Green Road Boy - You said "your description of those who would like to see a change of manager as 'anti-Arsenal' and 'sleepers' totally invalidates your argument". I think you misunderstand me. I'm not arguing with anyone. This isn't an argument. I'm just pointing out to genuine Arsenal fans what they're dealing with. And it's really helped. Everyone I've spoken to about it suddenly clicks. I just ask them to do a little research into the subject and they realise for themselves. It's weird but the realisation that people like yourself are just Anti-Arsenal hate mongers actually deepens their love for the club and makes them realise what fantastic times lie ahead. Their negative thoughts and their doubts are completely diminished and suddenly we're all Arsenal chaps again having the time of our lives - win, lose or draw. Tough on you Stroud Green Road Boy. Get used to it. PS - BADARSE & co. Loving the memories of Copenhagen. Beautiful stuff, next time I get a free hour or two i'll be dusting off the vhs for a trip down memory lane.. :)

53. Green Hut

    Jun 09, 2013, 16:34 #35535

    Mandy Dodd- This quote from Ivan Gazidis 17 July 2011, "We’re certainly not sitting there saying, ‘let’s hold back on our resources’. We’ve got a substantial amount of money that we can invest". So please don't regurgitate this nonsense that Wenger only now has money to spend, because it simply isn't true. As for 'If Wenger has been cautious, I'm sure he had his reasons', putting your obvious blind faith aside for a moment, do have idea at all what these reasons may be? And please don't mention the fantasy world of FFP, Platini has already admitted the decision-making power lies with the big spending clubs not with UEFA.

54. BADARSE

    Jun 09, 2013, 16:20 #35534

    Rocky RIP, I knew I would like you when I read some of your comments,mentioning Parken,Copenhagen has sealed it!Magical memories of a somewhat bygone age.The wash of red and white throughout the city centre,walking through the park to the stadium.The two Gooners wandering around the outside concourse of the stadium in that gigantic Arsenal shirt,Smudger's goal,the good natured Italian support who brought families!!The journey driving home via Rodbyhaven ferry,my wife and I singing our way back to England,as we drove through the other countries with scarves flying from the car windows,those little commemorative bags on the seats courtesy of AFC.Beautiful,beautiful red and white memories.Thanks for stirring the passions pal.

55. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jun 09, 2013, 16:03 #35532

    selsdon, Rocky RIP, too true no such thing as akb's or amg's that night, or in those days, just pure togetherness and comradeship.

56. Ken Dodd

    Jun 09, 2013, 15:40 #35531

    By jove,by jove what a beautiful day to shove an Arsenal history book under Wenger's nose and observe:''compared to Chapman,you're a right 'herbert' Arsene!''

57. Rocky RIP

    Jun 09, 2013, 15:40 #35530

    @ Selsdon - ah, Copenhagen. May 4th 1994. Anyone who went knows. What an atmosphere out there! No corporates or day tripping JCLs. 100% Arsenal. How I miss those days.

58. selsdon

    Jun 09, 2013, 15:27 #35529

    "Point 3 - I remember the pre-Wenger years".....Yup me too, in the nine years before he joined we won the the League Championship twice (Anfield '89 which for pure excitement, spirit, desire, passion and belief will never be bettered, '91 where we lost only one league game all season), the FA Cup, two League Cups (becoming the first side in history to do the domestic cup double) and the small matter of the Cup Winners Cup when Copenhagen was turned into North London for three days. Awful times, thank the gods Wenger came and rescued us from that pit of mediocrity and formed Arsene FC.

59. Mandy Dodd

    Jun 09, 2013, 14:14 #35528

    A fantastic read. Your graph says so much about our most successful manager and his teams, and alongside the immortal Mr Chapman, our great club builder. Subsequent posts have mentioned mistakes and players we should not have bought, all managers have done the very same (including SAF), just some have had the money to rectify at haste. Wenger has made some mistakes but until very recently, he was shopping in the bargain basement, not easy and fraught with risks. Lets see how he does now the CEO has stated clearly there is substantial money to spend, and remember his last two major signings were Spain internationals. We have come out of a era of what Gazidis rightly describes as risky (stadium, worst recession in decades, competition with predatorial clubs with far more resources) in very good shape. Our miraculously prolonged stay in the ECL will now pay dividends. If Wenger has been cautious, I am sure he had his reasons. Now, the bottom line is improving hugely, we can move right away from rivals below us (who when bold enough will start their own stadium projects...if the can that is) and start to catch those above. Never forget what Wenger did when on a level playing field. Some superb comments from Badarse.

60. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Jun 09, 2013, 13:38 #35527

    Jamie and PPP, your description of those who would like to see a change of manager as 'anti-Arsenal' and 'sleepers' totally invalidates your argument. A laughably transparent attempt to silence those who don't share your love of Wenger by conflating him and the club. And Jamie, do you realise how utterly pathetic "I would slap these simpletons daft" sounds? No, I don't think you do somehow.

61. A Trophy Is Not 4th Place

    Jun 09, 2013, 13:24 #35526

    Those moaning about no trophies - I take it you want to swap places with Wigan fans who'll probably be playing away in Yeovil while we're visiting the Camp Nou or the San Siro?

62. gee

    Jun 09, 2013, 12:50 #35525

    @ twisted - ok fair play on Chapman, he achieved similar if not more on the off field side of things - but since then no manager done more than Wenger. qualifying alone for champs league x 16 yrs has brought in in excess of 300 million (conservative estimate) and those young average players you say we overpaid never failed to get us there. Arsenal have always being prudent before Wenger yrs, it's this prudency and the managers success that has lead to the club being named 5th richest-not the status of their owner and not having major financial assistance from non football in activities. theft is theft - tempting or not, I find it interesting that someone caught stealing gets your defence but Wenger who is paid well for his job and who has brought in more than a fair return deserves you contempt. interesting.

63. John Gooner

    Jun 09, 2013, 12:39 #35524

    Good article. I will take the unusual step of labelling myself an AMG/WOB, I don't care if you think that makes me some kind of crazy fanatic; isn't that what supporting a football club is about? You make some very good points and distinctions, I will not attack your viewpoint. The only part I take issue with is the "consistent level of achievement". I feel that you should change this to "perceived achievement". I do not class 4th place with no trophies as an achievement, nor do I think any Arsenal fan should, regardless of your statistics (which always tell the full story, always!!!) Wenger should go because he will not make this club truly successful ever again - How I hope to eat my words!

64. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jun 09, 2013, 12:37 #35523

    Terry, spot on i red something similar on here a while ago indeed it might have been from yourself, as relevant now as it was then an it always will be. Maybe and hopefully Wenger has now realised that.

65. UTU

    Jun 09, 2013, 12:33 #35522

    Nice chart that does not explain why The Arsenal has not won a single trophy in 8 Years while Wenger has earned £ 56 Million in wages. George Graham won 6 trophies in 8 years. I have followed The Arsenal for over 34 years. For Me Wenger should have been sacked after the 8-2 defeat to Man Utd. This Article does not answer the question that Matt's article posed. What is a cut off that the AKB's will accept the Wenger's time is up ?

66. Mike

    Jun 09, 2013, 11:40 #35520

    Give him the extra two years - bring it on

67. Pesho Saulov

    Jun 09, 2013, 11:35 #35518

    ppp,JAMIE, Two Chrises, add Gooner Coles boy, Woolich interloper... I have a question for you – Is there something, no matter how improbable in your eyes, that wold make you think Wenger is no longer the right person to lead Arsenal ? To give you an example, for me it was the summer of 2008. We had a young squad with a lot of potential who had just missed out on the title. The basis for a new great team was there, we just needed a few key improvements. And than Wenger decided to keep faith in Almunia and not go in for Shay Given (who by his own words was looking for a team who plays CL football regularly). Than he sold our 3 DMs and decided to not buy anyone (Xabi Alonso) for fear of killing Alex Song’s carreer (this comes directly from an interview for arsenal.com). For me, this is a man who has other priorities than winning on the football pitch. Profit, a self-sustained model, winning but only on his own termes… It doesn’t really matter. If football success, which is measured in points and trophies won, is not what he is after, he shouldn’t be the manager of a football team.

68. BADARSE

    Jun 09, 2013, 11:00 #35517

    JAMIE,what gives with these noodles?OK,it's not the season and there are no games to 'big up',or performances to tear down,but what on earth is this barrackroom bust-up style of commenting?If two of them were trapped in a lift, they'd begin biting lumps out of each other within minutes.Sleepers?I see the analogy with dozing.Take any point in our football history and a key moment could have altered the future yet to be.I was behind the goal at Wembley May the 8th 1971. Heighway scored in the first minute of extra time, a minute earlier and we are beaten in the last minute of normal time.No 'Double'!Instead behind that same goal I celebrated Charlie's goal,twenty minutes later, which won us the best of'Doubles'.Such fine lines,'sliding doors'moments littered along every pathway.Puerile, modern(USA?),attitudes abound.You are a winner or a loser.I guess that makes pretty much all of us losers,eh?Except the likes of you and I JAMIE,I've won all my life;20/20 vision helps,and those ubiquitous red and white glasses I peer through.

69. Joe S.

    Jun 09, 2013, 10:34 #35516

    ppp,JAMIE, Two Chrises, add Gooner Coles boy, Woolich interloper... Wow everday when I wake up I thank God that I'm not an AKB.

70. JAMIE

    Jun 09, 2013, 10:31 #35515

    The sleepers are certainly getting foamed up over this. They will have to go back to their Spud, Citeh, Manure and Chelski employees and tell them their game is up. The majority of Arsenal fans see through them just a few dopey glory hunters still fall for their lies and spin. The constant counting of years without a trophy is wearing a bit thin as it started on year two, and believe me if Arsenal won the double next year the anti Arsenal spin would continue under a different guise.

71. Nigel Blayney

    Jun 09, 2013, 9:42 #35514

    Spot on, point 3 being very telling. You don't know what you have till its gone. It all depends on what happens this summer. If we fail again to buy world class players, then time for a rethink, however, how many managers would get the squad we have (ignoring for one moment how we got it) to this position in the league over the past five years,not many if any I think. Years ago, I followed a van down the M1 and written in the dirt on the back door was "If at first you don't succeed............. lower your standards". One more year, forget the Champions League and win the FA Cup. No more totally avoidable Blackburn at homes.

72. BADARSE

    Jun 09, 2013, 8:04 #35513

    To Rick,lee afc,Rocky RIP,Terry,JAMIE,Joe Bloggs,Rob,Dein,The Fonz,graham,Sha,Woolwich Interloper,Raider,PPP,HowardL(intelligent,tongue-in-cheek),Robert Exley(read earlier comments),and especially Chris,a big thank you,for lucid,or fair,comments.You too Jeremy C,in your own way,(intelligently constructed view even though I don't altogether buy it),and lastly maguiresbridge gooner,I quite like your passion and think there is a lot of hope for you yet,avoid infections as antibiotics are losing their potency!I wonder if we may see an article soon that won't prompt a 'for or against', tug of war?Doubt it!Haha!Oh,one last question,PPP,what time do you go to bed buddy?Haha.OK guys,'seconds out',continue the bunfight!

73. ppp

    Jun 09, 2013, 3:29 #35512

    Great fun, I see the spudlett sleepers are out in force frothing at the mouth like rabid dogs. We're having a good laugh at your expense chaps - and btw "it's happened agaaaaain!"

74. Green Hut

    Jun 09, 2013, 1:15 #35510

    Thanks for a fascinating insight into the mindset of Cult Of Wenger fundamentalists (or maybe just mentalists) everywhere. Sophisticated opening gambit of 'lets just call them what they call us', but you gave the game away at the end when bizarrely 3 of your 6 reasons for wanting Wenger to stay were because you were worried the next manager wouldn't be as 'good'. And therein lies the emotional battle AKBs have to deal with on a daily basis, they know deep down that Wenger has long been finished as a top drawer manager, but they are so terrified of the unknown, of the brave new post-Wenger world that they are willing to accept his rubbish signings, his non-existent tactics, his ambition-sapping socialist wage policy and his unnecessary, soul-destroying, self-imposed austerity measures if it means they are able to continue to use their comfort blanket Wenger as a link to a successful but dim and distant past. It's not the lack of trophies per se that makes me want to see the back of Wenger, I started going to Highbury at the beginning of our 16 years-1 trophy era, it's the fact that football has changed and Wenger hasn't. He's always been tight from day one, but it worked before the sugar daddies arrived and when French football was the best in the world. Of course he wants to win trophies, but on his terms, and his terms don't work anymore. There were 3 or so years when we had to be careful financially but since 2008 Wenger has had serious money to spend, Fizman, Hill-Wood and Gazidis have all clearly, publicly and repeatedly said so. Wenger deemed it not necessary to strengthen in January transfer windows and the eminently winnable league titles of 2010 and 2011 went elsewhere. And AKBs blamed the big bad board. His cult members also have a skewed rationale for rating his performance, judging the last two top four 'successes' against the backdrop of our poor early season form as if Wenger had nothing to do it! And of course they hail our 16 year continued presence in the unwinnable Champions League, ignoring the fact that if Wenger used all the financial resources available to him we would stand a better chance of actually winning stuff. But never let a bit of common sense get in the way of hero worship, eh guys? Wenger's been given due credit and praise for his past achievements, and I stayed with him long after he stopped winning trophies, but anyone who wants more of the same rubbish we've been getting over the past few wasted seasons is obviously part of the problem, and it simply goes to prove that Arsene FC fans really do get the club they deserve.

75. Pesho Saulov

    Jun 08, 2013, 23:35 #35509

    Fair play to the author, I always find it interesting to read an article defending Arsene Wenger, because as Matthew Bazell has explained, my opinion is susceptible of being changed. However, those six arguments don’t come even close. 6. Wenger was already Arsenal’s most succesful manager back in 2005 and he hasn’t addded anything since. 5. We come to the delicate question of money spent at Arsenal. The amount is huge. Wenger has the 4th biggest salary budget in the league. He has only spent 9 million pounds net in 10 years only because he has sold quality. The fact of the matter is that today we don’t have a single world class player which explains why we don’t have a single victory over a top side this year (except for 10 man Tottenham). 4. We have remained a big club due to the way european football is set up today so that the leading teams are extreamly priveliged. Because of our high UEFA ranking we play against (relatevely) **** teams in the CL. Which allows us to reach the knock-out phase every year which gives us a high ranking. And so it goes on…. When we have to play against a proper big team we get stuffed. 3. Let’s get one thing clear. Wenger is a servent to the club. He has done a good job but if he is no longer able to do it he must go. Just because you pay an architect to design a beautiful house does not give said architect the right to bring it down. The past achievements of a football manager are NO argument for him staying. 2. This is just a fear of change. The same argument could have been made against the eppointement of Wenger in 2006. And why should’t we compare Wenger and Ferguson ? We sure used to do it before 2005. It’s just that one adapted to constantly changing conditions to remain succesful and the other got left behind by the competion. 1. If the league was a level playing field, we would probably finish midtable. There are only 3 teams richer than us and 16 which are considerably poorer (and yet have players such as Suarez, Gerrard, Bale, Baines, Michu…) One final thing : as much we don’t like it, Arsenal supporters are devided into two groups. The matter of Wenger staying or going dominates our discussions, and rightly so. And this is a yes or no question.

76. Mark

    Jun 08, 2013, 23:23 #35508

    Under George Grahams management the longest period we went without a trophy was one season.Yet we are told by the likes of that idiot Gazidis that we should worship at the ground Wenger walks on.That Wenger is a great manager for reaching 4th place that 8 years without a trophy is a great achievement.Remember the 5th place team had a wage bill £50m less than our's.Gazidis tries to pull the wool over Arsenal fans eyes and sadly reading some of the earlier comments some have fallen for it.One question to those who want Wenger to stay when is enough enough?10years 15 years or 20 years without a trophy.

77. lee afc

    Jun 08, 2013, 22:31 #35507

    Wenger is here next season as the manager.....get over it, get on with it, support the club.....get behind the team....excellent piece Chris...

78. Stevieo

    Jun 08, 2013, 22:31 #35506

    Point 6: Wenger is still very sought after. Is he? Yes, I’m sure Norwich and Southampton would have him, but what about teams with aspirations? Point 5: Only Ferguson could have achieved our League success with the money Arsenal spent? Your definition of success is obviously different to mine. Point 4: Chelsea and City have made the game worse by spawning money on the likes of Adebayor? Oh yes, ethical Arsenal only spawn money on role models such as Bendtner; or pie eating Arshavin; or clown’s like Eboue or bench warming Denilson. At least we spawn it on nice guys which is more than acceptable. Point 3: You remember the pre Wenger years. We all do. That’s why we want him gone so we can return to at least trying to win trophies. Point 2: Don’t compare Wenger with Fergie. We won’t. There is no comparison. That would be an insult to the game. So who de we compare Wenger with? You tell me. Chris Hughton? He ain’t won owt in 8 years? Paul Lambert? Point 1: Wenger is our best bet of winning the league. Isn’t this just point 5 revamped? Overall, if you take out the 6 bullet points, it’s not a bad article.

79. BADARSE

    Jun 08, 2013, 22:06 #35505

    All that is missing from this collection of viewpoints(!??!), is a simple, considered, appreciative acknowledgement by Mandy Dodd, then a near-sexist response by an anti-Wenger person.It is so hollow,fellas!Do me a favour,read,then re-read Robert Exley's comment. Think about it.Try to digest what he has written,and with any luck,some,if not all will be absorbed.You may find a deeper sense of awareness,and begin to comprehend that life is not splashed in broad brush strokes,in vivid technicolor.Or you can just say,'Wenger out!'That is just as sensible.

80. Sounds like an AKB

    Jun 08, 2013, 22:02 #35504

    Point 2 and 3 are the ones most often pointed out by any "AKB" fans who act like we hadn't won anything for ages before Wenger came along which is laughable and that they still believe Wenger would do better than any manager that would come in suggesting that he is the best manager in the world still? Then we move on to point 4 where they are proud of "balancing the books", yes we don't need to spend money like Chelsea or Man City but making a PROFIT in most transfer windows shows the greed and lack of ambition the people in charge at the club show which is simply not good enough.

81. theo's bikini-line

    Jun 08, 2013, 21:02 #35503

    'Cult of the anti-Wenger?' I guess you mean Arsenal fans as opposed to Arsene ones.

82. Rocky RIP

    Jun 08, 2013, 20:58 #35502

    Who are these supposedly fanatical AKBs? I'm yet to meet any Arsenal fan who doesn't recognise his flaws and the frustrations of recent seasons. If you don't want him sacked do you qualify as an AKB? What drivel. The religious fanatics are the ones who want him out so much that they actually want us to lose/miss out on top 4 to force the situation along. Hmmm. Sensible thinking. They are the intransigent ones. I'd say the more rational amongst us sit on the fence, the AMGs are the loudest, least loyal and most fanatical in their views and the AKBs are something of a myth.

83. N4

    Jun 08, 2013, 20:54 #35501

    Firstly how could this article be balanced when it's all about the positive of Wenger and not even 1 bag judgement he's made during the 8 barren years. Secondly answer to Gare, that's what or friend was trying to explain about extremism.... in believing what you want to believe because the truth will be too much to bear! Yes Chris you are an AKB!

84. Terry

    Jun 08, 2013, 20:38 #35500

    Most of the Wenger outs are either JCL's or boring old farts in their 50's who love to moan about everything. They would be suited more at Chelsea.

85. Chris

    Jun 08, 2013, 19:49 #35499

    Theo - I may not be 'some kind of scholar' (although I'd hazard my CV would suggest that was more true of me than you) but I certainly know exactly how to press your buttons! Does the phrase 'taking yourself a bit seriously' mean anything to you...?

86. twisted

    Jun 08, 2013, 18:56 #35497

    I have engaged in a proper discussion, I have not insulted anybody so it is probably you that cannot hold a debate with a fellow supporter regardless of whether they want AW to stay or leave at the end of his contract.

87. Peter Wain

    Jun 08, 2013, 18:50 #35496

    Gazidis can boast all he likes we have not bought anyone yet ,. He is just trying to sell season tickets I cannot see Wenger signing the players being talked about certainly not Rooney and as for Fabregas I thought we were entitled to half of his fee so financially it makes no sense this deal. And we all know the board loves the balance sheet more than the first team

88. Gloria Hunter

    Jun 08, 2013, 18:43 #35495

    This is all very well but we need trophies and we need them now

89. ppp

    Jun 08, 2013, 18:30 #35494

    Twisted - you said "Some are happy with the average/below average performances these past 8 years, some aren't" Which is proof you didn't read the article. Nobody claims to be happy we aren't winning. But I don't expect you to engage in a proper conversation about it so don't worry. If you find the notion of sleepers ridiculous then you are at best naive and at worst one of them. I suggest you google the subject it's hardly ground breaking news. Most major clubs (and businesses outside of football) engage in such behaviour and for all I know Arsenal do the same thing. It wouldn't surprise me.

90. Twisted

    Jun 08, 2013, 18:25 #35493

    PPP whats all this nonsense about sleepers etc? Some are happy with the average/below average performances these past 8 years, some aren't. I certainly am not happy so I have not spent a penny on the club these past 5 years despite supporting the club for 40 years ! Many like me love the club but I don't like having the piss taken out of me with their regular spin.

91. Red Mist

    Jun 08, 2013, 18:24 #35492

    Jamie quick fix..... yes I'm with you let's see twenty years no trophy? All is possible with your man.

92. Big Andy

    Jun 08, 2013, 18:15 #35491

    This is an article full of false arguments. For a start, that diagram actually doesn't mean anything. Since the start of the Premier League, money has been God. That's why either City, Chelsea or United will win the title next season. Finishing in the top four just isn't such a big deal anymore for a club with our resources. My position about Wenger is simple: he was the greatest club manager in the world ten years ago, but now he is well past his sell-by date. The players he's recently bought, the socialist wage structure and his naive tactics have let the club down. The simple question that everybody at the club should be asking is this: can we do better than Wenger? The answer is, of course, yes. Just look at what Juergen Klopp has done at Dortmund with limited resources. Wenger isn't rubbish - but he is nowhere near the best manager in the world. And he's getting massive wages. We can get a much better manager than him for seven million quid a year. It's as simple as that.

93. ppp

    Jun 08, 2013, 18:14 #35490

    JAMIE - well said, but you'll find most of these anti-Arsenal types are nothing whatsoever to do with the club. They're mostly what we call "sleepers" who are employed (on hilariously poor money) by various business-types to destabilise other club's fanbases. It has had some effect at Arsenal but with proper fans seeing through their nonsense they are becoming increasingly desparate and even easier to identify. There's a great feeling around the club at the moment. Making the AMG's, Sleepers, Spuds etc very nervous. Bless them.

94. Ronster

    Jun 08, 2013, 18:02 #35489

    Chris Moore...your cardiogram is telling me you should rush your patient to the nearest A&E.

95. JAMIE

    Jun 08, 2013, 17:41 #35488

    I find the Wenger out folk to be basically a weird bunch of high emotional erratic people who are really just thrill seekers looking for a quick fix change in manager. I avoid conversation with these rogues as they are very limited in their outlook in life and I find their stance on everything Arsenal really silly. I find these people rather self-righteous pompous and nauseating and if they weren't gooners I would slap these simpletons daft.

96. maguiresbridge gooner

    Jun 08, 2013, 17:34 #35487

    You don't want wenger out just yet fair enough but at least your coming round, but still no indication of a cut of date, maybe next season if he fails again ? having spent no money, on decent players anyway, or if he does decide to use all this much talked about new money and do what the others are doing and buy real top top quality and then still fails to deliver ? I fail to see how a new manager is likely to be a disaster, is there any bigger disasters than going eight seasons without silverware or being knocked out of two of our cup competitions by the likes of Bradford and Blackburn, of course there will be a bedding/settling in period, but i take your point, a new man could well prove a disaster and indeed the next one,and no matter who the are will be a gamble but that gamble will have to be made sometime,but one thing i'm sure we can all agree on they'll not get eight years or more to prove themselves. If we were to believe the king of spin we're on a level playing field now,regardless of ffp, we can afford the Wayne Rooney's, Higuans, and Fabregase's of this world and not just one of them, but will wenger see it that way. Yes at this moment and time Wenger is our best hope and that i'm afraid is all we have hope.

97. ppp

    Jun 08, 2013, 17:32 #35486

    Excellent article, well researched and respectfully written. The majority of anti-arsenal opinions you read in the comments section on the gooner are not coming from genuine Arsenal fans. Refuting them is so easy as to be pointless so it's no wonder most actual fans have stopped bothering. I am saddened by any Arsenal fan taken in by the constant drip feed of negativity but urge them to consider the alternatives in an in-depth way - as outlined in this article. For the record I have been outraged and annoyed by Wenger on a fair few occaisions but I still love the beligerent old s*d and back him all the way to win something next season - despite the incredible pressure and difficulty of facing nefarious enemies like Chelsea, Manchester City and to a lesser extent Manchester United. The club itself is making the correct noises and appears to have taken on board the dreadful tension so obviously felt by the match going fans over the last few years. The long winded, desparate rants of the anti-arsenal set just make me laugh these days. There is obviously money to spend this summer and anyone who thinks Wenger doesn't even deserve the last year of his contract to spend it and take a shot at the title is a complete and utter (and probably wilful) fool. The frothing, ranting maniacs who want him out are pointless nobodies desparately trying to destabilise the club for reasons best known to them.

98. Twisted

    Jun 08, 2013, 17:31 #35485

    @Gee Your are incorrect in your post on some statements. 1. Herbert Chapman oversaw a period in our history of many infrastructure changes with finance and facility improvements which are certainly comparable to the Wenger period. 2.The money received from CL varies depending on when we get knocked out but this money has not been used wisely these past 5 years as we have grossly overpaid young and very average players. We have had to sell players to compensate for this. 3. As for competing against financial powerhouses. We have never been one of the richest clubs. Even before the oil money came into the game, we had to compete with Utd and liverpool who used to spend vast sums on players but we still managed to win trophies! The club is happy for you to believe we cannot compete financially. However,we are the 4th/5th richest club in the world. On the verge of the move to Ashburton we were told servicing the debt would have no impact on keeping and bringing in the right players so why have we systematically sold our finest? It isn't to service the debt as we pay 10-12m per year towards our debt. You may also forget we were told that moving to the new stadium would help us compete with the rich clubs like chelski,manure etc. but it hasn't happened has it ? at Highbury (in the early wenger era) we had enough money to bring in world class players, we weren't the richest club but we won trophies. we also never had the worlds most expensive tickets did we? At the Emirates we have been led to believe we cannot compete financially however, the board have repeatedly stated there are plenty of funds available to invest in the right player. we have the worlds most expensive tickets but now we have no world class players. These players we have now would be squad players at best of the early wenger teams that is why we scrape into 4th place regularly. If Wenger would like to halve his 8m salary, perhaps we could bring in a world class player and fund his wages with half of Wengers. Fact is, we have rewarded failure these past 8 years . Our hard earned money has gone into the pockets of players that shouldn't be earning 50-70k per week. I consider 4th place as failure, it is only the expansion in recent years of the CL that gives the impression it isn't. On the bit about the GG bung. George Graham was not paid that well at the time and not rewarded like wenger is today. If we were paid peanuts (todays money) for making your company millions upon millions of profit and someone came along and offered you a suitcase with 1M cash in it no questions asked, wouldn't 99% of us be tempted?

99. Robert Exley

    Jun 08, 2013, 17:06 #35484

    This Wenger in/out argument is becoming a rather tiresome whatever side of the fence you're on. I've said pretty much all I've had to say on the subject, but there's is one thing that is indisputable about football in 2013 and that is that 'success' is a rather difficult thing to attain today. It involves finishing in the top 4 AND winning something, one without the other is failure. There are those that say that they would take a Cup win and finish below fourth, but really these people are the real 'rose-tinters' because the difference between say elimination in the round of 16 in the Champions League and elimination in the same round in the Europa League is about £20m. To win a Cup and finish 5th would be counter productive in that sense. At the same time, a team that doesn't win a trophy stagnates and never really moves forward. I have other issues with Wenger on things like tactics, wage structures and the players he has signed over recent years, but one can be said with certainty - his job isn't an easy one, it's arguably harder than the one George Graham had back in the mid-80s

100. West Stand Rob

     Jun 08, 2013, 15:48 #35482

     None of the other Managers in the graph were allowed to go 8 years with no trophy, they were replaced. I appreciate times and financial dynamics have changed but what frustrates me is we should have won domestic cups, instead we have had humiliation. It means that we have been realistically playing to come fourth and thats it and that does not excite me. Add the misleading statements/bare faced lies in the past 7 years of our transfer market intentions and ambitions and the Managers clear contempt for supporters who have expressed disagreement and I have to say I have had enough. Thats not even mentioning the ridiculous prices we pay. I hope this time Arsenal mean what they say about spending and that Arsene still has the judgment to pick the right players so we can truly compete every season (which is why we moved in the first place), but I am not holding my breath.

101. Terry

     Jun 08, 2013, 14:59 #35481

     There never was, nor ever will be, a level playing field. Sir Henry Norris used his money, power and influence to take a small football club from a small place called Woolwich to Highbury. His machinations won us a place in the top division. So stop hoping for a 'level playing field' and think how we're going to operate financially in the future. I suspect the oligarchs with their money are here to stay. It may be too late to adapt the German principle of ownership by fans and German companies to an English version of the same. But, in the end, money talks - and without substantial inputs of money we're not going to win the Premier League or Champions League.

102. Sha

     Jun 08, 2013, 14:57 #35480

     Wenger is still the best manager in europe. Period.

103. Theo Jensen

     Jun 08, 2013, 14:39 #35479

     More insults to compensate the lack of strong arguments from Chris. In keeping with your constant preference for unsubstantiated assertions, you’ve labelled me an ‘anti-Wenger fanatic’- but as I have dealt with before, I would have no reason to be predisposed to want him to leave. Some of my best memories have been provided by him. It’s not been extreme by any means, the process has happened slowly. You haven’t explained how you could be an anti-Wenger fanatic- the point is that people’s emotions from the golden age towards him dictate how they feel- and then they look for ways to support that conclusion, so nothing can shake that belief. You are a perfect example of this as literally every single issue that is debated, new or old, you ALWAYS have a totally pro-Wenger stance. Either you’ve made up your mind and look for ways to fit your conclusion, or it’s just a phenomenal coincidence… If anything, I’m far more predisposed to want Wenger to turn it around. I’ve said how I think things could work for Wenger countless times (eg return to counter attacking football over possession play). I supported the new style the club had at the start of the season while many doubters said it was nothing noteworthy. I think the shift to older players this year has been the correct way to operate. Basically it’s a mix of interpretations, some pro and some anti-Wenger. To the point about the defensive record "Ah well it's all very well looking at the total goals conceded in 38 games but who were they conceded against and how many were from very poor defneded" No. You’re so literal minded and clouded by your fanaticism that you consistently are blind to how reasonable analysis really works. What I’d say to that is that ALL facts must be viewed in context. If a team win 8 matches 1-0 but play their reserves in the 9th match and lose, say 10-0, would they be worse at defending than a team that lose 9 matches 1-0? It all has to be viewed in context. What about Bayern Munich not scoring 1 goal from 34 chances against Chelsea last year- is that great defending or poor attacking? I never berated the club for conceding 49 goals in the league in 2011-2012 and why? Because over 25% came in just three losses to United, Blackburn and Liverpool. When you asked me semi-consciously in response to my relative spend reply ‘since when did your subjective opinion about the league’s quality overrule the facts?’ you fail to realise, well a lot of things there, but including that you tried to defend (unsuccessfully) the poor record of English teams in Europe the last few seasons (defending Chelsea’s anti-football win in the CL puts you in a group not even most Chelsea season ticket holders belong to by the way…), by attempting to explain away the facts- or is interpretation only valid when it vindicates your hero? I could have equally asked ‘since when did your subjective opinion about the league’s quality overrule the facts?’ but then I wouldn’t because as I’ve demonstrated, it’s ALL analysis and interpretation. Facts are meaningless without interpretation. You represent yourself as being some of kind of scholar and yet invariably you show the opposite to be the case. When I pointed out that PHW said all the money made on transfers is available to spend and showed how almost all of it has been spent you replied ‘well that shows the difference between history and science’ demonstrating, at best, a gross misunderstanding of how the respected discipline works: it is based on the consideration of multiple interpretations always. The reason I say the money is there to spend is because of repeated quotes from Gazidis, Kroene, PHW and because it fits perfectly. I don’t abstain from thought because it encourages a lack of scrutiny over his transfer policy. To quote an actual scientist Richard Dawkins: ‘by all means let’s be open-minded but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.’ Fanaticism ultimately encapsulates your shortcomings in argument on here Chris. You claim to have knowledge of how Chamakh would not have played better than Giroud (counter factual history not a great idea if the orthodox type is not your bag by the way…), to label an article I wrote ‘conjecture’ despite admitting only having skim read it, and the list goes on and on. I won’t bother checking back as I’ve voiced all the arguments I have countless times and all you provide me with are insults and, more than anything else, misrepresentations. So go ahead and attack some more straw men in ‘dealing’ with what I’ve said. Believe whatever you want. Oh wait, you already do.

104. HowardL

     Jun 08, 2013, 14:13 #35478

     Matthew and Chris - two brilliant articles, to give all of us something interesting to read whilst we have to put up with this boring sunshine and wait for August. I wonder how people's loyalties might fluctuate if Fellaini does actually sign for Arsenal?

105. BADARSE

     Jun 08, 2013, 13:49 #35477

     Rob,your words are like music to my ears.Cathartic,washing over me cleansing and refreshing.Keep it up dude!Chris,loved the article,clear-sighted,constant and to a child, informative.To a noodle?Just white noise.Please don't pick up and run with the term 'noodle',we have enough dissension in the ranks.Good Old Arsenal!

106. Woolwich Interloper

     Jun 08, 2013, 13:44 #35476

     Thank you Sir! Took the words right out of my mouth - expect I scarcely remember the pre-Wenger years. Me no want no Fergie, me no want no Roman, me no want no Mourin(Mourinho), me no want no Manchin (Manchini), Arsene Wenger me want! Arsenal under Usmanov's total control is a nightmare that most never become reality! Just hope with the right amount of good fortune, intelligence and sterling quality reinforcement can be added to the squad with a healthy measure of promotions from the reserves.

107. Guy in Jersey

     Jun 08, 2013, 13:42 #35475

     Why are so many people so scared of an Arsenal without Arsene Wenger? It's going to happen some day. To say "Wenger’s replacement is likely to be a disaster followed by more disasters" is a ridiculous statement. None of can predict how successful (or unsuccessful) our next manager will be, but it beggars belief that there aren't a number of managers in the rest of the world who couldn't do as good a job. By the way, hands up all those Gooners who wanted Wenger ahead of Johan Cruyff. I did, and I was the only one out of all my mates who wanted Wenger. Why? I liked what I'd heard about him and I didn't want Cruyff because it would've all been about him, and not the club. In the same way that it's now all about Arsene, and not the club. I no longer think Arsene's continued presence is good for Arsenal (as he's well past his 'sell by' date) and we'd be better off without him, but it seems as if I may have to wait a while to find out.

108. Jeremy C

     Jun 08, 2013, 13:23 #35473

     Interesting article. Although after it I am not sure if I am an AMG or AKB. as I have been saying for the past 4 years that Wenger couldn't take the club forward and have explained so in print editions of the Gooner, but still admire for the work he did up to 2006. He was absolutely brilliant at augmenting an experienced team with a winning mentality with a mixture of young players/players just coming to their peak to develop a new team twice. Yet 2006 onwards he throw that successful template out of the window with project youth, getting rid of all the experienced know how. The most infuriating thing is that as Theo Jensen points out the league has got worse and if he had continued his existing strategy we would have probably won at least one league title. To say that we wouldn't have had a chance with all that money spent by other clubs is untrue. it would certainly have been hard, but not impossible. Prior to the 2002 season Ferguson spent £27mn on Veron having spent 10's of millions on players like Van Nistelroy, yet we still won the double, and went on to win the league tow years later with Chelsea starting to spend money. Lets also remember that Man City have spent £500mn to go from a relegation threatened team to a top two team. Having realised its failure in 2011 (at least two years too late) the question is whether Wenger can re-install that winning mentality into the club, ie by buying the right sort of experienced players. Signs so far with his signings suggests he can not. If he can't do it this summer with absolutely no excuses then I don't see how anyone can justify a new contract for him, which makes it deeply worrying that this board/owner seem to want to offer him a new one before we have seen the results. I hope he can surprise us, especially as it does not look as though he is going anywhere soon but my expectation is that, based on his past record, he can not and we are going to have to put up with more years of relative mediocrity and lack of ambition.

109. gee

     Jun 08, 2013, 13:15 #35472

     @twisted in the time of not winning in our clubs history has there ever been a bigger improvement of the club's overall infrastructure, finances, facilities even playing staff in that period. as the graph shows have we not competed and finished at the higher ends of the league table, improving prize money from playing in Europe consistently? they say cl qualification gives us 30mil x16 yrs is a lot more than being caught taking a bung, effectively stealing from the club. but Wenger must be a bigger twat cause he struggles against 3 heavily backed financial powerhouses in man city, man utds, and Chelsea, who else has won the premier league recently?

110. Tomas

     Jun 08, 2013, 12:55 #35470

     "Wenger's replacement is likely to be a disaster followed by more disasters" is precisely what puts you in AKB camp ,right next to "Wenger is the best thing since sliced bread. There's also the the belief that somehow Wenger has overachieved in last eight years in the league relative to money spent , that weakens your argument. In fact Arsenal's wage bill requires Wenger to deliver CL places at bear minimum. The notion that Wenger's past successes need defending is ludicrous at best. The only question remains ,how much equity has Wenger built up over the years in his successful seasons , to carry him through the barren spell. If unlimited is your answer, that makes you AKB. There's also the small matter of losing to the likes of Birmingham City in League cup final in 2011, losing to Bradford City and Blackburn Rovers in the same month last season that Wenger supporters tend to give him a much too easy pass for .However if you are in the" I'm not happy with Wenger's performance but I'm willing to give him another season or two" camp , that definitely puts you in a more reasonable camp, providing there are specific goals set by the club and Wenger himself to achieve. None of that " CL qualification is like a trophy" nonsense .

111. twisted

     Jun 08, 2013, 12:44 #35469

     You will also note that this is one of the longest periods in Arsenal's history we have gone through without winning a single trophy not even the league cup. point 3. I too remember the pre wenger years, George Graham oversaw 7 trophies. We also managed to win the odd pot before then too. Although the football pre GG could sometimes be poor, we were still writing history winning trophies. If AW was still a genius don't you think we could have won the league cup at least once in the past 8 years ? he only cares about CL qualies so he can justify his massive pay package and sod everything else.

112. Rick

     Jun 08, 2013, 12:41 #35468

     Absolutely spot-on couldn't have put it better.

113. Chris

     Jun 08, 2013, 12:32 #35467

     Gare - I don't think there are many (if any) fans who really think it's wrong to question Wenger or who don't have issues with him themselves. As the article suggests,though, the debate becomes a polarised and a bit pointless when anyone who says anything positive or who questions some of the more extreme arguments or language used against Wegner is immediately labelled an AKB....

114. Gare Kekeke

     Jun 08, 2013, 12:10 #35466

     Ah, so nice that one of my old comments has been mentioned. I’m flattered! On that ‘infamous’ quote from moi, the goals against column in the league last season was very good. A massive improvement on previous seasons. A fact that I can’t and won’t argue against. Steve Bould influence? Possibly. However it also be pointed out that Per Mertsesacker’s comments back in March after the defeat to that mob from the Lane could suggest that we HAD to improve our defending if there was to be any good to come out of last season. How many games have we tripped up on recent years because of bad defending? Countless. But then I forgot, the likes of Santos is ‘world-class’. As for this article, not a bad read it must be said. But what I find difficult is why some fans (or AKB’s as they are known as) can’t question some of Wenger’s decisions? It is possible to question him without vitriol. Was it right that Wenger or whoever else at the club decided that the likes of Bendtner, Denilson & Diaby were put on lucrative contracts at the early stages of their careers when they still had so much to prove? Especially the soon-to-be-released Denilson. Is it such a bad thing to compete in the domestic cups? Winning one could spark a positive chain reaction. There’s no doubt in my mind that had we beaten Birmingham in the 2011 League Cup final we would have achieved more. Instead we get Wenger telling us there is no value in winning them. Could it be in his head there is no financial value in winning them? You don’t need a coaching qualification to know a squad doesn’t develop a winning mentality by not even competing for trophies let alone winning them, something that this squad seems incapable of. That’s not to say they can’t or won’t one day. It’s very sad these days when some Arsenal fans would degenerate others clubs winning the cups without the aid of petro-dollars. Even Bayern Munich took a kicking from a so-called ‘true Gooner’. I would also point out that for all my criticisms for Wenger & the board, there is no way I would want us to go down the ‘Chelsea & Man City’ route and there are many fans like me who feel this way. But I would also like to see the club run a bit more properly especially on the wage bill which is just ridiculous.

115. Joe Bloggs

     Jun 08, 2013, 11:40 #35464

     Oh - another Wenger in/out article followed by angry exchanges in the comments section. How Original

116. Chris

     Jun 08, 2013, 11:21 #35462

     Well done Chris for a decent well balanced a reasonable minded article that, for those very reasons, won't be well received by the anti-Wenger fanatics such as Theo Jensen. Theo's re-cycled and very strange argument about pre-disposition is as thin as it comes - extremists by their very nature veer from one extreme to another, bypassing the middle ground like a 1980s Wimbledon team.... As for Theo's Gare Kekeke quote - take a look at the league table for last season, in particular the goals against column, then have a re-think, Theo my man. (I can imagine the repsonse - "Ah well it's all very well looking at the total goals conceded in 38 games but who were they conceded against and how many were from very poor defneded" followed by extended anecdotes and convolutions to justify as very tenuous agument - LOL!)

117. Nick

     Jun 08, 2013, 11:20 #35461

     Point 3 sums it all up really...

118. Theo Jensen

     Jun 08, 2013, 11:09 #35460

     The term 'AKB' actually is a pretty apt description of Wenger's supporters. If you think he should stay in the job over anyone else then presumably he does know best? The reason it's difficult to call AMGs fanatics is that they wouldn't be predisposed to want him to leave would they? He gave Arsenal a golden age of football/trophies which provided the platform for the new stadium. The emotional attachment this causes is something most people never shake off- hence almost all his defenders now believe what they want, and look for evidence to support this thereafter. You set up a straw man as if the only criticisms of him are that he defends his players and the club, his tactical decisions and his inability to procure silverware. An extremely poor representation of the opposite argument, to put it mildly. As to your points 6) Living off past glories- his performance since 2009 has been dire. 5) Pre-2005? Definitely. Afterwards? Maybe up to 2009 while the property debt was reduced. Not thereafter. You've got to realise that this relative spend argument doesn't work, it's just not that simple. The league for years has been very weak first of all, and regardless it wouldn't have taken a lot of money to have a complete squad. The money HAS been spent- the cash from transfers, but it's been invested poorly and produced a self-imposed decline. What about the wage bill by the way? Higher than Bayern, Juve, Dortmund etc. 4) The last few years the club's "self-sustaining" model has papered over the cracks of large operating losses by selling players and from property revenue. Due in large part to obscene wages paid to the deadwood. 3) Robert Exley wrote an article showing just how much potential Arsenal had pre-Wenger. It was the combination of GG's legacy and Wenger's full attack approach that made this club its strongest ever- the pure Wenger Arsenal of the last few years just doesn't compare. 2) I think barely scraping CL qualification in an appallingly weak league is close to disastrous given the money he's spent. Admittedly though a new manager would have the task of reversing a serious decline. 1) Again, it's pretty level. Look at the European record of the last few years. Doesn't at all compare to 2005-2009. Wenger is not a tactician or motivator, even with the same cash the same tactical/strategic problems always reappear. As Gary Kekeke put it: 'FFP won't come with a manual on how to organise a defence.'

119. Raider

     Jun 08, 2013, 11:08 #35459

     I don't believe for one minute that Wenger makes the right decisions every time, and his tactics are not always spot on NOR his aquisitions. I do however believe not many managers could have sustained a top four position over the last 7 years without spending vasts amount of money to keep up with Utd, Chelsea and City. Sure we haven't won anything because of that, but the board decided to build a new stadium and get out of debt as soon as possible which impacted on our results in the league. Priorities were clear to everyone that being out of debt was more important then winning the league but I believe Wengers directive was just to keep Arsenal in with a shout and finish in the top four! The stadium is well on its way to being paid off and the board have publicly stated that Wenger now has real money to spend, perhaps not the sort of money City and Chelsea have, but real decent money that can attract the better players. Moaners and plastic supporters now need to see what he does with that money before condeming him to second tier french football because if you listened to their gripes about him you would think that's all he is good for! Because Wenger never comes out and discusses the clubs agenda and the thoughts of the board, it has always been hard to tell who is calling the shots. Everyone says Wenger runs the club but I find that hard to believe, sure he runs the team but I just don't see the board letting him control finances. I think Wenger and the board have the same philosophy of not jeopardising the club financialy to obtain success which is probably why the board want him to extend his contract. Is he the best manager in the world, probably not, but he's our manager and he needs our support not our abuse. Support Arsenal, Support your manager!!!!!!

120. Rob

     Jun 08, 2013, 10:58 #35458

     AKB? AMG? yawn. Our fan base is slowly turning into West Side bleedin' Story! - I call these fans 'extremists', as regardless of what side of the fence they sit, their views tend to fall way WAY outside the norm, and these individuals who pollute the debate with their polarised views definitely sit on BOTH sides of the fence, and aren't concentrated in some bizarre little AKB or AMG camp. You lot are all as bad as each other, yet sadly, unlike the running battle between the Sharks and the Jets, you don't let up once the curtain has come down, and we've had to endure this dull tit-for-tat for the best part of 7 years and counting! There's no reasoning with extremists, so just ignore their unhinged rants and get on with enjoying your life.

121. Dave

     Jun 08, 2013, 10:58 #35457

     This rubbish that after 8 years Wenger is miraculously going to become a winner again.The cult of Wenger holds no shame.A manager who thought Denilson Bendtner Flappy Santos Squillaci Chamakh Park Gervinho and Giroud were good players good enough for Arsenal will now change and buy good players.Wengers record in the tranfer market in the last 4 years is abysmal.He should have left in 2009 when we got humiliated in the CL by United.You say Wenger is still succesful and thats where the AKB's lose the arguement 4th is not success never was never will be.Any any other major club in Europe Wenger would have been sacked after 3 trophyless seasons not 8.

122. Dein

     Jun 08, 2013, 10:56 #35456

     Why are there no Anti-Kroenke supporters? If there are any there is no out cry against Stan. He has bought the share but not invested into the club. He is taking not giving hence cuts at Arsenal. At Wenger's heart is in the right place.

123. graham

     Jun 08, 2013, 10:52 #35455

     Very good article that nicely articulates many of my own thoughts over the past few years .I would add that most AMGs presume to know Mr Wenger"s character traits,methodology ,and dealings with players .As a man of integrity ,he does not expose these to the public domain to defend himself against the many criticisms on these websites.

124. Unyoke the Ox

     Jun 08, 2013, 10:48 #35453

     Pretty much what I said to my mate in an email. Pasted the same graph in too. Spot on fella. Also, compare us to Tottenham. Same area, similar set up, but we're better than them. Their fans seem a lot more happy with heir manager though.

125. The Fonz

     Jun 08, 2013, 10:32 #35452

     Interesting to note the different tones in Chris and Matthews two different articles. The previous one was accusatory, ignorant and generally just a rant designed to insult anyone who dares still want the manager to stay, and this one is written with a respectful tone and much preferred reading this. Well done Chris for capturing the idiocy with fans who have to put you in one camp or another.