The Right of Reply

Bit of a debate in progress by the looks of things…



The Right of Reply

Unsackable?


George V, I didn't sit and count the exact words, but I would hazard a guess that you've spent 3/4th of your article espousing the merit of getting into a CL spot on the cheap. But, how does this make you different from the greatest spin doctor the world of sport has ever seen, a la Wenger? We've heard ALL of these points before from Wenger's mouth. Champions League this, Champions League that. I notice you carefully avoid talking about the title or any of the cups, much like Wenger does.

Let's start with the Champions League under Wenger. For 16 years of straight CL football, his record is pretty pathetic. The lost final was his only hurrah in the CL. It's been downhill since then and for the last 3 his strategy has been - pray for an easy group (which he usually does except this year), start off the first 2-3 games with aplomb, stumble to mighty Olympiakos or Braga or some such, finish a p*** easy group second, meet Bayern or Barca in the last 16 and get dumped out. Oh and along the way, sacrifice the domestic cups. Is this what you call an achievement? CL, CL CL… what has it got us besides money that we don't spend (until now)? The Barca's, Bayerns, ManYoo's , Chelski's etc. enter the competition to win. Wenger enters it to get money because he knows he will never win the CL. Even Di Matteo won the CL, so it shows that the CL is hardly as hard as finding alien life. Yet, somehow the £7.5M/year man simply can't crack it. When other managers paid less than him have. Please explain to me why this is so? And don't blame luck. 16 years was enough to have cracked the luck factor as well.

About the players you've mentioned - let me tell you that other than Jack and Cole, Wenger has not produced a single talent worthy of note. The jury's still out on Jack. I love his heart and he's a Gooner through and through but it remains to be seen if he can get over his injury issues and produce the goods consistently. Oh and should he do so, hopefully he won't get sold. Entirely for "footballing reasons", of course ! And even for Cole there are rumours that he was set to be sold to Crystal Palace till Sylvinho's dodge passport issue was discovered. Still, I'll give you Cole. You mention Frimpong. What's been his contribution other than Deeeeench, pray tell? Gibbs? We'll revisit him when he can string together 40 games in a season. Additionally, his defensive duties leave MUCH to be desired. We'll revisit Chezzer in a few years. There's a reason why a large section of Gooners are clamouring for some competition for him. Let him sort out his distribution and blood rushes to his head and then we'll talk.

As for Afobe, Gnabry and the others, we'll have to talk later as I had heard the exact same things about the might of Owusu-Abaye, Mark Randall, Giles Sunu, Seb Larsson, Franky Simek and a whole host of others who, at one time or another, had all been promoted as the next big super star. Mostly by that idiotic Young Guns blog. Need I remind you where these players are today? Talk about the present my friend. Any talk of CL qualification (without actually winning it) and a host of young players who will be the next alleged super stars just makes you sound like a Wenger clone and frankly, the original one is unbearable himself. We don't need his clones. No offence.

Richard Lancaster, Wenger is the one with his feet "most" firmly on the ground, is he? Now I get it why he went to Lille and came back with Gervinho, leaving Hazard for Chelski. Thanks for clearing that up. Wenger's "decision making" appeals only to AKB's. Any decision making which involves putting Denilson on circa 50k/week, Barry Bollocks on 52 and Diaby on 60k with a contract extension nonetheless should have been met with a P45 a long time ago. But, since the man has an unreal art of spin doctoring and God given gift of the gab that makes a large part of fans pay up their hard earned money to the board, I can see why the P45 was not given.

Yeah, we beat Bayern. Just like we beat Barca. How much did it mean? None. Those games were over in the first leg and with nothing to lose, the boys came away with victory. Clappity clap. Funny when something is on the table to lose, Wenger FC usually comes up short. Like against those European giants Bradford and Blackburn. Or how about Swansea and Norwich? Or hanging on 1-0 for dear life against RELEGATED QPR? The "negativity" has not been built up over night. It's the product of frustration of the last 5 years. His lies, spins, passing off Diaby as a "new signing" every season is just too much to bear for 5 years. Tell me one other club where Diaby would be sitting on his arse collecting 60k/week for 6 years? Yes, that's how long he's been here for.

How long did it take Ferguson to ship out Veron? For whatever reason, Hargreaves saw 4 years there but at least it wasn't 6 AND counting. The myth about Diaby only being what he is today is because of the tackle is just that - a myth. I won't deny that the tackle did a lot of damage but the fact is his then Auxurre manager Jacques Santini is on record stating he let Diaby go because he couldn't pick him in his side anymore due to repetitive injuries. "Abou was one of the players I used at the start of the season and then he had to stop because of repetitive injuries. Maybe he was attracted by England and the money there. This probably did not force him to make all the necessary efforts to come back to his best level with us." - That's Santini on Diaby's Wikipedia page. When is enough enough? I'll give credit to Wenger for shifting the deadwood this season, but I believe a few others behind the scenes pushed him into it. The reason people are cynical is because despite the Diaby experience, he's still signed another frequent crock (Sanogo) on big wages.

To sum up, Wenger has taken the joy away from some fans of winning. Because, every time he wins the arrogance is back. He's back to using "mental strength" and "great speereeet". We never hear those words after Bradford. Before the Ozil signing, large swathes of fans wanted one defeat after another because they realize that perhaps only the lack of CL football might see his departure. As long as he makes money for Stan, he'll be here. That's the reason for wanting defeats. That and his smug face in post game press conferences. And I'll end by saying that just because we've bought Ozil doesn't mean we are going to win anything this season. The lack of options at CB and upfront is going to cost us heavily during the season, mark my words. ONLY Wenger would dare to start a season with just one recognized striker. What's the reason for his daring and arrogance? I think you know the answer. Job security. The man's virtually unsackable.


NEW! Subscribe to our weekly Gooner Fanzine newsletter for all the latest news, views, and videos from the intelligent voice of Arsenal supporters since 1987.

Please note that we will not share your email address with any 3rd parties.


Article Rating

Leave a comment

Sign-in with your Online Gooner forum login to add your comment. If you do not have a login register here.

92
comments

  1. WorldClass Gooner

    Sep 21, 2013, 23:11 #39577

    You are a deluded Wenger hater, if Wenger prioritized domestic cups over Champions League i bet you'd say he should go because he's not ambitious enough. if you can't appreciate Wenger's achievements, don't mention his shortcomings neither. You are already writing off Sanogo before he has even started a game for Arsenal. you people who have little faith when will have enough of humble pies.

  2. BADARSE

    Sep 19, 2013, 12:31 #39457

    Oh, Ron. In the other corner you had the wicked, and most arrogant, self-righteous Duke of Wellington. The racist bully boy, who when it was alluded to his Irish ancestry said, 'Being born in a stable does not necessarily make one an animal!' I love your crazy rantings though pal, a lot like my own, ha ha.

  3. Ron

    Sep 19, 2013, 11:58 #39452

    Oh dear, the intellect had lands armed with his crumbs of comfort. How the hungry as re so ealsily sated! Jamie, there was a guy like you in 1815. Power base damaged badly. He sought redemption and a new credibilty, as gung ho as they come, sabre rattling early on as he sought a return to past glories. He was little and insignificant in reality, but never would have accepted it. He engaged on a mission with inadequate forces and men. It never stopped him saying his force was the best though, even though many others knew differently. He engaged in the actions of a man desperate to show his old powers hadnt waned. Some still had faith in him though, it has to be said and yet alas in the final outcome some months later, he was broken, his power base crumbled to dust and he dissapeared to a remore Isle. His name was Mr Bonaparte. A sad little individual, who had an attitude towards others that stunk to high heaven too. Was he a relative of yours by any chance? Actually, im as much of the view hes Mr Wenger's hero too. You and Arsene should get together, once youre out of puberty. Meantime look Mr Bonaparte up in your school library. I g'tee you hes in there! You ll like him.

  4. BADARSE

    Sep 19, 2013, 9:59 #39439

    JAMIE, nice to experience your 'crash, bang, wallop' style, again. I have missed it. 10 out of 10 for the 'Travellin' Wengerboys'.

  5. JAMIE

    Sep 19, 2013, 9:01 #39436

    The Wenger out folk will have to spend another day wiping egg off their faces. What's that ten away wins on the trot and the much maligned Aaron Ramsey best player in the Premiership at the moment. Once again Wenger proving he knows best while his critics scrap about for any negatives they can find. Let's see if there's any of these egg head losers with their farty flags and dumb ass chanting, and their retard 'VIVA LA REVALUTION' on Sunday. I doubt it! as most of them are bottlers. They'll all be crying in their beers that they gave up their season tickets so hastily.

  6. Esso

    Sep 19, 2013, 7:49 #39434

    Man we hired as a FOOTBALL manager steers club to record 10th away win in succession. SHOCKING.

  7. GoonerRon

    Sep 19, 2013, 7:19 #39433

    You say the Munich win didn't mean anything, yet that victory has sparked a sequence if results where we have won 15 out of 18 games and conceded 4 goals from open play in that time. Whatever it was, whether it be confidence, belief, morale etc, it certainly has meant something.

  8. BADARSE

    Sep 19, 2013, 6:37 #39432

    In the last Gooner I read of a tour for a group of around fifty kids, and it only equating with £600, which was pointed out that Theo earns that every hour, of every day of the year! Nice work if you can get it.

  9. Ron

    Sep 18, 2013, 22:13 #39431

    Rocky RIP - No mate i've never bothered with a tour. A lot say what you say about them. On the away wins. Its a great run. I'm an Arsene sceptic and have been for getting on 4 years now, but 10 wins away is highly creditable (i speak more as an away game goer than home for the last few years - for all the reasons both you and i have just mentioned). I do think though that the players hes got now are better suited to away game tactics for lots of reasons.

  10. BADARSE

    Sep 18, 2013, 22:09 #39430

    Ron,you've every right to feel smug buddy. Me? I'm still trying to style my Joe Baker quiff into a perfect comb-over. Am full of bounce tonight. How amusing. I often find myself regarding my own antics as if I was a third party present, just observing. Have been waiting for donkey's years to grow up, I guess it's about time I gave up on that one, and just accepted that I will remain a child for the remainder of my days. Good Old Arsenal!

  11. Ron

    Sep 18, 2013, 22:03 #39429

    Evening BADARSE. Always nice when you're around matey. A cracking win there. Credit due. In a way, these 10 away wins on the bounce underline my point made in earlier post. Smug look on my face as i type!!!

  12. Rocky RIP

    Sep 18, 2013, 22:00 #39428

    @Ron - I did say I'd only reply if asked a direct question. Since you asked, yes, I had considered everything you say about the stadium. Plenty of times. The acoustics are poor. Noise doesn't travel from end to end. You simply can't hear the opposite corner. The stadium was designed to allow light and air to reach the pitch as much as possible. Hence those empty areas at the back directly above the corners of the pitch. The result is a fantastic pitch, but the noise is poor and the cold winds whip up at the back. I also read from an acoustic engineer that there's something in the roof which saps away the noise. Fans at the back can feel marooned and detached. The noisy fans are split up from one another and dotted all over the stadium. People need to back the BSM's campaign to bring back the Clock End ie. full of Clock Enders. Put the passionate, noisy fans all together. The place, as you say, is lovely to visit, but not intimidating. It's too neutral. It also feels too corporate. It feels like you're there as a customer to fund the club's business model. It needs more areas people can take ownership of and grow attached to. In many ways it's a fantastic stadium (have you been on a guided tour? very impressive), but it certainly needs some changes made to make it a better place to go to as a home fan. Home advantage often doesn't count at our place. Anyway, 10 away wins in a row. Credit where it's due. I await the negative spin on this stat from our usual friends on here.

  13. BADARSE

    Sep 18, 2013, 21:47 #39426

    Ron your post wasn't addressed to me but it is very close to being spot on. Sadly that is another aspect of 'today'. You gain in numbers-and cash, but lose in familiarity and connection. Of course had we left the Reebok, the Lane, or Upton Park the Grove would be a massive step up. We left the best ground ever. Everything would seem a little less after leaving Highbury. Great win for the lads tonight, that's 6 games on the spin.

  14. Ron

    Sep 18, 2013, 21:24 #39425

    Rocky RIP - Its interesting that you mention the two versions of AW ie Highbury and the Grove. Have you never considered that the stadium isn't conducive to a winning team? Its too airy, its too flash, its impersonal, it has no intimacy, its maybe too big and worst of all what atmosphere can be generated just filters out into the night sky as quickly as any noise is made. Sure, Highbury had its down nights/days and often the crowd weren't stirred, but when it was upbeat it had a magic, an energy, a 'we re inside Highbury and the World elsewhere has been shut out' out feel to it. It had old and worn tradition dripping off every beam . I know you might say that the Grove needs an era under its belt to try and create what Highbury had but i'm not so sure. Its very modernity and clinical laboratory feel isn't going to disappear any time soon. Its design is badly flawed for me and my guess is most of the home players would privately agree. Certainly, its more attractive to visiting teams who are prepared to play. The fans they bring are perfectly sighted down that end and vis the disparate new breed that that stadium has attracted, the unity of the away fans there stand out. Far more so than do any away fans at any other stadium in my view. It cant help Arsenal, being on a pitch so isolated from the teams own fans can it? I feel that all of these aspects have rubbed off on Wenger, the players and all to do with the Club. It would be great to run a private interview past the players and staff with the answers being anonymous so to glean the true feelings about the stadium from those inside its corridors.Im not sure the Club would like the answers though.

  15. BADARSE

    Sep 18, 2013, 18:47 #39423

    jjetplane, making enemies doesn't sit comfortably with me, but I have made more than most. 'Leftfield compassion', at least gives recognition that invariably the left is more compassionate, they can be the bloodiest too, history may tell you that. However, a man's politics doesn't come in to the reckoning if another takes a swipe at him. You accuse me of negativity. Why? Just because I don't want a revolution? Enjoy the sensation of broken empires? Nope. That pains me more, even if it is something I personally have worked towards. Echoes of John Donne stir me still, despite a jaundiced view of many things around. I have said this before to different individuals on this website, I know you care about Arsenal, I do too! It was you who cast that first stone on this article. I took exception to it, perhaps I shouldn't have. It isn't the first. We see things a little differently, not enough to go to war over, though. A story for you, years ago I met a fan who wanted to chat with me at a party. We were in the kitchen; I was chopping vegetables. Then chat over, I began chopping again. I overheard him saying he had tried to run a dormobile off the road because it had Belgian plates. I was astonished and challenged him on it. I think brandishing the knife worried him, though I'd forgotten it was in my hand. He didn't understand that as much as I love Arsenal, racism transcends that for me. I told him we had nothing more to say to each other. We haven't spoken since. I would rather talk with you. or at least remain pacific.

  16. jjetplane

    Sep 18, 2013, 15:31 #39421

    Badarse - you're slipping mate. Where has all your leftfield compassion gone to? Here was me thinking you might enjoy the sensation of broken empires. Perhaps you are more conservative than you thought. Have a nice season, and if you think that is 'snide' - you have anxiety issues. Mine passed after about the second year of the eternally present lull. Up da bleedin' Gunners.

  17. maguiresbridge gooner

    Sep 18, 2013, 14:57 #39420

    Rocky RIP, you certainly haven't offended me mate, we're all probably holier than thou fans in some way. Don't go to far.

  18. Rocky RIP

    Sep 18, 2013, 14:15 #39418

    maguiresbridge - I don't doubt a word you say mate. I was merely stating the obvious about a certain strain of fan that only goes to home games. Of which you are clearly not. Anyway, unless asked a direct question, I'm off. I've said more than enough and probably appear some kind of holier than thou fan. Apologies if I've offended anyone. We are The Arsenal.

  19. Tony Evans

    Sep 18, 2013, 13:51 #39417

    Rocky RIP - My use of the word 'always' usually catches me out! I was referring to more recent seasons and you are right that in Wenger's hey day the squad strength was excellent. I also agree that Flamini was a good signing, the team has needed someone like him for ages to add some tenacity to the midfield, but I do have worries about his positional play and I thought he was caught too far forward against Sunderland and better teams would have exploited the gaps.

  20. maguiresbridge gooner

    Sep 18, 2013, 13:50 #39416

    Rocky RIP, I would like nothing more than to be one of these away fans who are being saluted, but maybe it's because i've invested to much of my life (and money) into the home games that i can't afford it, maybe that makes me lazy, but myself and the lads that i sit with at home games have a hell of a lot of solidarity and pride at being Arsenal and have always shown it and will continue to do so just as much if not more than the away fans. But your right they do deserve praise for following the team all over the country and abroad, and like i said i wish i could do it to. So please accept my apologies for being unable to afford it.

  21. Rocky RIP

    Sep 18, 2013, 13:42 #39415

    @John - I fail to see how I've talked up the merits of consistent failure. Please point out where I've done this. There's degrees of success I suppose. I value finishing above Tottenham very highly. I almost reluctantly value finishing in the CL places. That doesn't mean doing both = a successful season. It's two targets met. Equally, does anything but a trophy winning season = unqualified failure? Will Birmingham remember their League Cup Winning but relegated season as a success? (I'm a traditionalist and value the cups before anyone starts!)

  22. Rocky RIP

    Sep 18, 2013, 13:30 #39414

    @Tony Evans - I agree with most of what you say. The sentiment is spot on. Perhaps it's that social media allows so many disparate voices an opinion. We all want what's best for our club. We just have different views on specifics. Arsenal are at their best when we are as one. Victory through harmony. 2 points however, sorry to pick holes, you say 'Another undeniable fact is that Wenger always leaves the squad short on numbers' - painfully true now (why?!), but always? In 1999/2000 Wenger's squad had Thierry Henry, Davor Suker, Kanu and Dennis Bergkamp (plus Marc Overmars bombing forward) to choose from up front. Also, I seem to be alone in thinking Flamini is an excellent squad addition. Apart from that, it's hard to argue with you. It's as though there's been 2 Arsene Wengers - The Highbury one (1996-2006) which gave us the best football Arsenal have ever played and The Emirates one (2006-2013)which tangled us all up with conflicting loyalties. I know which version we all prefer. That's why we all twist our heads up wondering what we think of him. People like me are fence sitters. Still eternally grateful for the Highbury version, but confused/frustrated by the Emirates one and clinging on for him to rediscover the magic. We get tantalising glimpses of brilliance which leaves people like me unable to turn on him completely. Especially when he constantly puts us where all others want to be (rightly or not): in the CL. I'm actually more confident for this season than any of the past 4. That's just my opinion though.

  23. John Gooner

    Sep 18, 2013, 13:27 #39413

    Rocky RIP, the condescension in my previous post was intentional and deserved following your prior attack. I do not really question your support or anyone's on here. I do not doubt for a second that we all want Arsenal to succeed, but talking up the merits of consistent failure really winds me up. Regarding your 'spuds' comment - Spurs, spuds, scum, vermin - All of those terms are too good for them.

  24. maguiresbridge gooner

    Sep 18, 2013, 13:14 #39412

    Pete, it's good to know you weren't purring before, and Seth, cheers for telling us it's been a while since they were fun, but we knew that already.

  25. Tony Evans

    Sep 18, 2013, 12:58 #39411

    In all my years as a Gooner I have never known a manager to have split the Arsenal fan base the way Wenger has done. The reasons for this are many. To start with the period up to 2006 earned him legendary status with all of us (with some reservations that the team was good enough to have won more) and he earned the right for us all to cut him some slack post 2006 when the wheels started to come off. The 'slack' has run out for many (for me about 3 years ago) but others still back him. We can all argue a case for and against - those for will argue that he has kept the team in the top four on a minimal outlay, whilst those against will say he has 'thrown' the FA cup to achieve it and not spent the money to buy the top players attracted by CL football in order to get the team to the next level. Money - yet another issue; was there money to spend or not? Some say there was, others disagree. Few can argue though that the standard of players from 2006 has declined and that was compounded by the fact that long contracts and high wages were given to too many players that were completely unproven at the top level. It is only now that we are seeing most of the 'deadwood' removed from the books. Another undeniable fact is that Wenger always leaves the squad short on numbers and that is continuing in to this season with Giroud alone as our only decent striker. The Wenger sceptics amongst us can already see the wheels coming off again this season due to lack of numbers and quality in certain areas - up front, in goal, central defense and probably defensive midfield, with the jury still out on Flamini. Whatever our opinions on Wenger we are all Gooners and want what we feel is best for the team. Some want Arsenal to fail such is their disillusionment with Wenger and their desire to see a new man in the hot seat. I have to admit that I have flirted with this but find it very hard to want my team to lose. To sum up this season has to be the last chance saloon for Wenger and I for one will be disgusted if he gets a new contract if all we see is a repeat of the last 8 seasons.

  26. Chris

    Sep 18, 2013, 12:43 #39409

    Rocky RIP - Absolutely 100% agree re CL. I've had some brilliant CL nights at Highbury, Wembley and Emirates, as well as watching on TV at home (the games you mention plus e.g. even Munich last season was very enjoyable in the end). Would my life be poorer without those nights? Without a doubt.

  27. Embarrassing

    Sep 18, 2013, 11:53 #39407

    We used to laugh at Spurs for always having their best run of results only after they were knocked out of everything, now apparently it's a cause for celebration. Wenger has done a fantastic job of lowering expectations despite having pots of money at his disposal for (as Alex Fynn reiterated last week)at least 3 years. And his worshippers still lap it up.

  28. BADARSE

    Sep 18, 2013, 11:49 #39406

    I genuinely would like to see all AFC fans come together, as they seemingly existed before. However, there is always an exception to this rule. jjetplane, you are the acid test for me. The moment any snide comments you make begin to make the slightest impression on me I will know I am lost. You perhaps share a similar view to S.G.R.B, yet he is pure class. Please try to emulate him, you will have a better life, I promise.

  29. Dixon Arsene Seaman

    Sep 18, 2013, 11:41 #39405

    Just a thought: has anyone ever appeared under two names and had a blazing row with themselves? All in the name of causing disharmony among the fan base of a rival club. I'm tempted to visit a Tottenham fan site to spread discontent. Fans feuding over whether Nacer Chadli represents good business. AVB must go! After all, they do it on here.

  30. Rocky RIP

    Sep 18, 2013, 11:22 #39402

    @Stroud Green - fair comment.

  31. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Sep 18, 2013, 11:15 #39401

    @Rocky RIP, you said to John Gooner "Don't ever question my support for Arsenal." But it's okay for you to question his? Perhaps you shouldn't dish it out if you can't take it back.

  32. Rocky RIP

    Sep 18, 2013, 11:06 #39400

    @ John - dear oh dear. Where do I begin? 1. Of course I don't want a season of abject failure. What nonsense. What do you take me for. 2. Finishing above Tottenham will always give me pleasure. Whatever the circumstances. Any Arsenal fan will have this ingrained in them. Yes, we should have higher targets and greater ambitions than seeing that lot off, but it's target number one for any old school Gooner. The rest follow on from there. I grew up with them finishing above us and winning FA Cups, so it's no divine right we have over them. 3. Don't ever question my support for Arsenal. You clearly don't know me. 4. 'Spuds' shows you up. It's a playground insult. They aren't offended by it. Stop using it. 5. You don't think about Tottenham unless you have to? I'd rather not think about them either, but it's part of being an Arsenal fan: they are the bitter enemy. 6. You're trying to communicate on my base level are you? - hilariously patronising comment; beneath contempt. 7. Yes, we should look to the top, not the bottom - a divine afflatus - thanks for that. I bow to your superior support 'Gooner'. Were you even around when the phrase was coined or have a grasp of its connotations? People used to have to earn the right to call themselves a Gooner.

  33. AFCasap

    Sep 18, 2013, 11:05 #39399

    great piece somak....re: diaby, maybe he's following wenger's playing {10 years, 80 games, 6 goals, lol)} career, and while on the AFC books he's doing an economics and management course during his free time...although collecting 60k a week why bother....wengers about the sustaining business model, trophies don't enter into that.

  34. John Gooner

    Sep 18, 2013, 10:46 #39398

    Rocky RIP, so you have confirmed that it won't upset you one little bit when we go through another season of abject failure, only finishing narrowly above a team we should be miles ahead of. Perhaps it is you who is not the real supporter? I'm passionate about this team improving and fulfilling its potential and that will remain from now until the day I die. Fans like you make the spuds very happy, the longer you're happy to accept mediocrity and keep cheering for more, the more likely they are to overtake us (on the pitch). So keep spewing your apologetic 'sh1te' and know that each time you do, they take one step closer to overtaking us. I'm only using Spurs as an example because I'm attempting to communicate on your base level; I generally don't think about the scum unless I absolutely have to. This team should be looking at the top, not the bottom.

  35. Chris

    Sep 18, 2013, 10:24 #39396

    SGRB - I have pointed that out as recently as a couple of weeks ago, if I recall correctly. But whilst recognising that seasons run from August to May and thus there are limits to how much we should read into it, a balanced interpretation (which believe it or not I'm trying to achieve even if not succeeding!) does involve recognising that a greater degree of consistency has been achieved recently(just as a year ago I recognised that the reciprocal did demonstrate inconsistency, even if it wasn't such a daming indictment of Wegner as was being suggested). So yeah, leave the trumpeting until seomthing is won but some did predict that this team would start performing better and better as they bedded in. Like you (I imagine), I'm still expecting the wheels to come off when squad depth is exposed but until then I'll hope they don't and enjoy the ride!

  36. Rocky RIP

    Sep 18, 2013, 10:18 #39395

    @Chris - To be honest, I stopped reading after the comment 'for 16 years of straight CL football, his record is pretty pathetic'. If you remove the word 'for' (which I understand is vital to the point being made) it highlights how unprepared some people are to recognise anything good Wenger does. We'd all rather have done better by now but to call his record pathetic is a bit weak. I'm grateful for 1-0 in Bernabau (a record set), 5-1 in the San Siro, 2-0 in the San Siro (a record set?) and 16 years of qualifying and always, unfailingly finishing above that lot. Not to mention our first ever European Cup Final - you appalling man Wenger.

  37. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Sep 18, 2013, 10:12 #39394

    @Chris, as you yourself would have pointed out before this year (i.e. before it favoured Wenger) Jan 1st is a false date to start from. What has been achieved by this stat? The dates required for sustained competitiveness are August to May. The point is, Wenger's recent teams never do it when it matters.

  38. jjetplane

    Sep 18, 2013, 10:12 #39393

    Somak is not a 'moaner and groaner'. All needs redefinition (see Stroud Green for instructions) and the newest brand of negativity is currently being p[ushed admirably by messrs Badarse and westlower. Wot a long giggle.

  39. Chris

    Sep 18, 2013, 10:04 #39392

    SGRB - Fair point about sustaining form and trumpeting etc but it shouldn't be ignored that were the league to have started on January 1st, we would be top of it! That's a fair old run of form - the longest since the Eduardo leg break incident, perhaps? As for to four - no it's not miraculous and it's not 'competing at the top' but it IS over-acheiving and it IS remaining reasonably competitive'. It's certainly pretty good, as almost all non-Arsenal fans (i.e. those less likely to have a vested interest) agree.

  40. Westlower

    Sep 18, 2013, 10:03 #39391

    Well said Rocky Rip, summed our home support up in a nutshell. The away support is proudly unconditional.

  41. Chris

    Sep 18, 2013, 9:51 #39390

    Smoak - "Pool haven't competed in the last few years but even if you include Pool, that's Wenger finishing many fourths and a third in a semi league of 6 teams. SIX." Come on dude, at least get your facts right FFS! You just look like an idiot if you don't. Over the past 6 seasons, Arsenal have finished 3 times 3rd and 3 times 4th. If you take the last 3, we have finished 4th twice and 3rd once. How are either of those stats "many 4ths and a 3rd"? And yes, it's a league of 6 in which 4 teams have spent massivley more than Arsenal over that 6 years period. So 5th would be par and therefore the results demonstrate clear over-acheiving. As for your 'evidence' about money to spend - all of those directors have said we are now leaving a period of financial constraint. 'Money being available' could mean all sorts of things. Anyway, most of your arguments are about as classy as mocking Wenger's accent (which, by the way, carries a faintly racist whiff) - i.e. they are completely lacking in any.

  42. Rocky RIP

    Sep 18, 2013, 9:49 #39389

    @WestLower - very true about away fans. It's not just Arsenal, it's most/all clubs. Away fans generally tend to be noisier than home now. The ones who only go to home games will never grasp the solidarity and sense of pride at being Arsenal. Being outnumbered and up against it in some god awful part of the world brings out the pride in us all. Home only fans are often lazy and don't invest much of their life into Arsenal simply because they don't care enough. They'll often leave their seat empty for games they can't be bothered with. It's a pleasant day out. It's the comfy padded seats at the Emirates only for them. The days of the terraces and proper atmospheres won't have appealed to these people. No real support, just an expectation to be entertained to a comfortable win whilst thoughts turn to their next hot dog and Lloyd Weber in the evening. Some are so entitled that they boo at half time if they aren't getting their money's worth, utterly oblivious to their key role as a 'supporter'. Anyway, enough negativity from me. I just miss the days when everyone who went was 100% behind Arsenal, as one. No plastics or moaners or corporates or booing JCLS. eg. Copenhagen 1994.

  43. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Sep 18, 2013, 9:47 #39388

    Somak is right, Wenger gives himself a big target to aim at - finish in the top 4 of six clubs at most who could possibly manage it. There is nothing 'miraculous' about this, it is not 'overachieving', it is not 'competing at the top' either. Coupled with the lack of any trophy of any description for going on 9 years now, it's rather mediocre for a club of AFC's resources - and yes, that includes the resources we had when the 'new' stadium really was a new stadium. It's depressing to read the denigration of the domestic cups by a fan of westlower's obvious vintage. Him and others have swallowed the Wenger spin wholesale - finish 4th, finish above Spurs and that's a great season, that's all that matters. Highlighting short term stats doesn't convince either - Arsenal always have patches of good form over the last 8 years - that's all you need for 4th, patches - but don't sustain it over a season. So perhaps you should wait until that happens before trumpeting so loudly, Arsene fans.

  44. Westlower

    Sep 18, 2013, 8:58 #39386

    Further thoughts on AFC setting a new club record of 9 consecutive away victories in PL & CL. How can a team with a suspect GK & defenders concede only 3 goals in 9 games? Is it proof that the team is inhibited playing in front of critical, moaning, jeering 'fans' at the Emirates? Typically, the booing at half time if we're not leading and the barracking of individual players that are not excelling! Aw has an expression for it, "we play at home with the handbrake on." Compare this with the hardy souls who travel to all the away games. They are the true Gooner Heroes and I salute you all.

  45. Westlower

    Sep 18, 2013, 8:25 #39385

    Interesting stat in today's Daily Mail. Arsenal have set a new club record by winning 9 consecutive away games, starting at Bayern Munich. Guess the 'moaners & groaners' will be hoping we don't make it 10 in Marseille?

  46. Black Hei

    Sep 18, 2013, 8:09 #39383

    If you guys so want Arsenal to fail so that you can have someone new in the hot seat, do you have the right to celebrate when this team wins something this season? It is something you should consider. Every time the team wins, you should lament and moan harder as it means one step closer to Wenger's new contract. Put it this way, there is some element of merit with dissent, but they all have their time. It is the start of the season, and we had a flying start to it. If you are a player, like Ozil, you would be seriously confused. Arsenal is the only club that have fans saying "Manger OUT!" after winning 5 out of 6, at the freaking start of the season. I mean what are you going to do with the rest of the season after sacking your manager after 4 games?

  47. Seth

    Sep 17, 2013, 23:40 #39381

    Wow - utter waste of time. Go support another club Somak. How about when we have podolski, ox, and cazorla back? We will be firing on all cylinders. Your outlook in general is like your writing, awful. Cheers to arsenal looking fun again

  48. Rocky RIP

    Sep 17, 2013, 22:51 #39380

    @John ''Gooner'' - care? Yes. Always. Never stop caring. Especially if it means a scrap to finish above that lot. Rule number 1 with any bona fide Gooner worthy of the name: finish above the vile vermin. So yes, although not an apologist (shi!e term) I will care massively in March. If you don't and 'only' view it as finishing above our most bitter enemy, then please remove the Gooner from after your name and take up a hobby you actually care about. You're diluting the passion.

  49. John Gooner

    Sep 17, 2013, 22:22 #39378

    O for goodness sake, Wenger is done, get over it! He must be credited for changing the face of English football with his progressive attitudes, but since the invincibles he has been outshone (in football terms) by many, many managers. Will any of you apologists even care when we're only fighting for the 4th place trophy come March?

  50. Rocky RIP

    Sep 17, 2013, 22:00 #39376

    @ Somak 'Firstly, what is a "lean, financial" period?' - I guess by this people mean the transitional period of dealing with the costs of a stadium that cost a whopping £390 million to construct (amid a deep global recession), whilst attempting to compete with the richest club in world for many years (Man U) and two clubs owned by obscenely wealthy billionaire sugar daddies with bottomless pockets. A tough balancing act trying to keep us in touch with this lot. Despite Hill-Wood and co saying money had been 'ring-fenced' (which I always doubted) Wenger knew he had to be prudent for a time. It meant fans paying their hard earned cash were/are funding the club's strict business model without seeing any pay back. That's what rankles us fans the most I guess. I don't particularly enjoy funding a corporate machine which our owner uses to make himself a profit either. And watching our best players leave. Not fun for anyone. We keep hearing 'now is the time' that we can start competing with the big boys again (from Gazidis) but it never happened. £60m still left in the transfer kitty unspent. Maybe signing Ozil is finally a hint of things to come. Let's hope so. We are The Arsenal. We will return and it will be magnificent.

  51. BADARSE

    Sep 17, 2013, 21:26 #39375

    So Somak, am I right in thinking that you don't like Arsene Wenger? Your points were well made, but the vitriol and poison just made me feel sick. Read westlower's posts on this article, again, and learn something. I'm sorry that someone has burst your balloon, but you have to live with that. I liked the exchanges between westlower and Ron. I'm afraid I am with westlower all the way Ron, but there is a bit of me wanting to win everything too, just as I expect westlower courts those same desires. You get the plaudits though for your magnanimous response.

  52. Pete

    Sep 17, 2013, 20:53 #39373

    Somak - that is an astonishing comment. It is not spin - it is financial reality. I do think you may have a point in that the Board oversold the financial potential over the last 8 years - and hung Wenger out to dry to an extent. Of course Wenger has made mistakes - but who hasn't. The bottom line is that he kept Arsenal in the top 4 - if he hadn't have we wouldn't be signing Ozil now because we couldn't afford it (and he wouldn't want to come anyway) - with a zero net transfer spend when all around have been spending a fortune. Wages have been more competitive - but generally 4th or 5th highest. I think, sir, you need to live in the real world!

  53. Westlower

    Sep 17, 2013, 20:24 #39372

    Somak, Maybe you've only known Arsenal as a top 4 side. Sometime in the future, probably post AW, you'll look back, more in sadness than anger, at what you had and didn't appreciate. As someone who's supported AFC through the lean times I acknowledge the AW years as the best period in the clubs history. Arsenal's history can be charted from depressing lows to glorious highs but AW has kept us at the top level for the entire length of his managerial tenure.

  54. Somak

    Sep 17, 2013, 19:55 #39371

    Thanks for the comments, guys. One thing I'll say - it really gets my goat and makes me lose it when people say "Wenger has done a fantastic job of keeping us competitive during the lean financial years." Firstly, what is a "lean, financial" period? I can find quotes all the way to 2006 when Ken Friar was mirroring what Gazidis has been saying all along. That there is money to spend "should" Wenger want to spend. So now everyone, from Friar to Hill-Wood to Gazidis, is a liar but Wenger is the epitome of truth? And what's this about being "competitive"? 3rd and fourth? Out of 5 teams that can realistically finish in the top 4? That's ManYoo, Chelski, Citeh, us and the scum from Black Heart Lane. Pool haven't competed in the last few years but even if you include Pool, that's Wenger finishing many fourths and a third in a semi league of 6 teams. SIX. And that's not even counting that in the last two, he's sneaked into fourth on the last day 1 point ahead of the swamp dwellers whose wage bill was far lesser .Yeah, that sure is keeping us competitive . Please don't fall for Wenger's spins.

  55. jjetplane

    Sep 17, 2013, 19:32 #39370

    Somack You put it perfectly! The mob who seem to think they are true Arsenal are wrong, wrong, wrong. Wenger is just a corporate money lackey who would do just the same job at Samsung or whatever. His patent lack of football nous is there for all to see - he is now utterly disconnected from Arsenal as a football club. He is utterly connected in a money making sense. Ozil as an instance is a brilliant player but on his own will soon be wondering 'what's next'?. The people on here who state 'be careful what you wish for' think they are talking for 'some real Arsenal' of their making. It's the same fabrication Wenger adheres to. It's time for it to get real unstuck.

  56. Ron

    Sep 17, 2013, 19:21 #39369

    Westlower - i know how the arguments go mate. Sorry if my earlier post to you sounded a bit offensive by the way. It wasn't intended. Im afraid im an 'in it to win it type'and 4th place and a little trip down the euro way does little for me. Its the modern game though as you say. Im also not of the view that Wenger has the expertise to win the CL even if youre way was the only way and the Cups were allowed to be opted out of, thats the problem. His supporters can say '16 years of CL and counting' as often as they want to me and ill say '16 years/15 feeble attempts' right back at them. Its actually quite a poor record.Moreover as we re out of the CL by early Feb usually, how can a Cup tourny that starts in Mid Jan interfere with the CL? The squads on their last legs arent in my view caused by too many tounries, theyre caused by too many skinny, lightweight types for too many years who only have the durability of your Gibbs and Walcotts et al plus his crop of chokers who've stunk the place out for too long. Its a bit of a cop out to blame too many games for his squads blowing up over the last 9 years and surely cant blamed for every one of those years failings as i see it. PS Agree with you on Moyes. Hes not for one for OT longevity i suspect. Hes been set up as the required 'fall guy' they badly needed after Fergie there by being offered that job so to take the heat off their next Coach who follows him. Utd know who they want really and he ll be there inside 2 Seasons.

  57. Win something or go

    Sep 17, 2013, 19:09 #39368

    Hear, hear!!

  58. Westlower

    Sep 17, 2013, 18:02 #39367

    Ron, While agreeing with you that winning a cup is great for the fans, life has moved on. No one enjoys a day out out at a Cup Final more than me but you have to look at the bigger picture. No world class player will ever be attracted to Arsenal because we won a Cup every now and then. The CL & PL are the only magnets that attract top players from abroad. Whether you're for or against AW the ONE thing he has achieved is Arsenal's retention in the CL. In European terms we remain as one of the elite clubs as CL top seeds. The criticism of AW would be more understandable if we failed to finish in PL top 4 in the past 8 years. It's worth remembering we finished with 83 points and won 24 games in 07/08 which is only 2 less than the 'Invincibles.' Not bad for a man who is deemed incapable of improving players and useless in the transfer market. Ozil came here to play under AW. JW wants him to remain. In my book, better Wenger than Pellegrini or Moyes in charge. Doubtless the posts will reign in should WBA knock our kids out of the LC but it's better than getting entrenched in a fixture pile up in the New Year with home & away semis and the players asked to play 3 games a week without a break. For the future prosperity of AFC we HAVE to focus on PL & CL. Sadly there is little room to accommodate Cup fixtures + International call ups. We wont have a player left standing if we went a long way in all competitions. Yes we have a 25 man squad but injuries and suspensions will take it's toll. We'll end up watching a jaded side struggle to beat the Blackburn's & Bradford's.

  59. Ron

    Sep 17, 2013, 17:10 #39365

    Westlower - What an utterly snobbish view. Its disgraceful in fact with all due respect. The domestic Cups are vital and carry credibility with the fans. Moreover, with the Club having been accepting that it cant win major honours for the last 8 years, whats wrong with trying for the lesser paid Cups? Lets face it, much of the flak that Wenger gets now would have been tempeered had he have not been so Cup snobbish as you are. What have Arsenal ever done to justify denigrating Cups? Does one genuine tilt at the CL 7 years ago justfy it?I think not. Arsenal justify it due to money and money only. Its an insult to fans to abort the Cups every season. Your just a sheep whoif Wenger said go and leap off the Clock at the Emirates, you would be scrambling up there in a flash with the rest of his blind acolytes. I havent even mentiond either that winning a lesser Cup may even have given some of his lightweights down the years a bit of confidence he always bleats on about like a cracked record!

  60. Chris

    Sep 17, 2013, 17:07 #39364

    "To sum up, Wenger has taken the joy away from some fans of winning. Because, every time he wins the arrogance is back. He's back to using "mental strength" and "great speereeet". I think this sums up most of the argument you make. You don't like Wenger, and have taken to mocking his accent to make that point. Fair enough - but did you really have to write such a long article to articulate that view? 1/10.

  61. GaryFootscrayAustralia

    Sep 17, 2013, 16:53 #39363

    And here's me thinking that Rupert Murdoch, Sepp Blatter and Michel Platini were the biggest spin doctors in football. I know we can't control or influence what any of those nutters do with the game, but equally we have little or no control or influence over what happens within the modern version of The Arsenal, regardless of the spin factor - which I grant you, appears to have reached new heights in the past twenty - four months. When the North Bank turned on Neill, the team and club were worse off than they currently are (Colin Hill! Raphael Meade! Brian McDermott! AAAGH!). However, the club took note because the fan's voice was unified, and not grouped or divided by acronyms, irrational negativity, or blind faith. Nor was the message blurred or diluted by the presence of happy - snapping daytrippers and tourists. We knew what we were watching was crap and Walsall was the proof. Last season, the safety net from two humiliating cup exits was, as ever, the fourth place finish. Arsene is The Arsenal's only manager able to use that as proof of achievement. Perversely, having said all that, I feel more confident about this group of players than any from the past four seasons. There's a decent amount of gumption and character among the playing group now - it remains to be seen whether those in charge of selection and tactical affairs can mould and lead them to something tangible, and not play with "a little bit the handbrake on". By the way - be careful when quoting Wikipedia as a source. The content on there is a minefield.

  62. Rocky RIP

    Sep 17, 2013, 16:44 #39362

    @Spaced - You won't find a bigger fan of Dennis Bergkamp than me. I only said best player in the world as that was what Henry was widely accepted as for a period. I'd say there wasn't a better player in the world at various points in Dennis's career eg. 1998, but it was debatable and wasn't widely accepted as it was with Henry when he was at his peak. I've had many an Henry v Bergkamp discussion and I'd argue Dennis was the most gifted player we've ever had. As you say, his inch perfect passes played to feet were a dream for any striker. (People who compare forwards by goals scored miss the point.)I'm yet to see a player with a better first touch. If you have a free moment, look up Adams's volley v Tottenham in the 3-1 on youtube. Study Dennis's flick. From nothing, a goal on a plate. Or 'Bergkamp artistic one touch.' Losing Dennis was our biggest loss of them all in my opinion. The beginning of the 'decline.' (And I hate to say it, losing Cashley was a landmark.) I'm hoping Ozil is the nearest we've come to replacing the irreplaceable in terms of someone who can lay on world class assists in the number 10 role behind a main striker. (Although quite where Mesut will operate isn't that clear to me yet.)

  63. Mike

    Sep 17, 2013, 16:44 #39361

    Second in the table, a settled team, above last years top three and still your moaning!

  64. Shu

    Sep 17, 2013, 16:37 #39360

    Spot on with this article . My missus will tell u how this season will pan out as it will be exactly the same as the last five years !!!

  65. Pete

    Sep 17, 2013, 16:36 #39359

    Wenger has done an extraordinary job keeping us semi-competitive during the stadium repayment period. Not perfect - but hugely better than anyone else would have been. We are now poised for lift off having got here the honest way. No short cuts! And now I am purring watching us play again. Give him a new contract now for as long as he wants!

  66. Westlower

    Sep 17, 2013, 16:27 #39358

    'Intelligent fans'who want to get rid of the board, manager & players they don't fancy, wont be happy until they turn Arsenal into Newcastle United. Take a good look at the circus created by the 'best fans' in the country on Tyneside and imagine what happens next! You end up with a 'hire em & fire em' philosophy which creates never ending turbulence! You simply can't have well meaning fans trying to run a football club. How on earth do you get agreement on any one subject with so many varying points of view? Domestic Cup competitions are virtually meaningless in Europe. Since the inception of the PL the UK has followed suit. Winning the League CUP is not a meaningful measure of success. Are we really comparing ourselves with Bradford City? The FA Cup should only become a priority if we are out of the running for PL & CL at the end of 2013.

  67. Spaced

    Sep 17, 2013, 16:08 #39357

    Canada. I don't think I've ever bought a hot dog at the ground and now that you've informed me that they're £8 a pop, I definitely won't be (who needs a hot dog at 4pm anyway?). I'll stick to the beer thanks, which I think is reasonably priced. Besides, it does bug me when all those people come in late for the second half with their hot dogs, you're not one of them are you? ;)

  68. Ronster

    Sep 17, 2013, 16:06 #39356

    Fact...Cole was signed as a school boy by George Graham and has recently stated he was heavily influenced and tutored by GG's back five.

  69. Bard

    Sep 17, 2013, 15:53 #39355

    There's a confusion here. Making critical comments doesn't translate into not supporting the team on Saturday. I have my views but come Saturday I get behind the team as best I can. I need more to convince me that Wenger hasn't lost his mojo than blind loyalty and stories about how great he was 8 years ago.

  70. maguiresbridge gooner

    Sep 17, 2013, 15:52 #39354

    Your right Somak the negativity has not been built up over night like some like to think and imply, it's built up over years of incompetence, mistakes, humiliations, etc, etc, that a lot like to forget about, and have, and one great signing as much as it's welcome doesn't suddenly change history as much as others think it does and has. Since the signing of Ozil you'd think we'd won the PL you'd think we were suddenly the best in the land again, unbeatable, such was the hype, well we're not. And fans that haven't suddenly or conveniently forgot the last eight years of failure (because of one signing) with the same mistakes, defeats/humiliations, decisions, etc, the same fans that are being accused of still showing negativity, and in one case Nega's (an american term if ever there was one) have a longer memory and will not be as easily swayed. Thank you very much Somak for reminding everybody just why that is.

  71. Spaced

    Sep 17, 2013, 15:24 #39352

    Rocky, Henry wasn't the world's best player. Bergkamp was! Put anyone in front of him and you'll a get club record breaker (two in fact). It's no surprise that we've struggled to win trophies after he retired. As my fellow matchgoing friends and I used to agree at the time - Bergkamp was worth the season ticket alone! ...we had a great manager back then too, oops, shouldn't have said that!

  72. CanadaGooner

    Sep 17, 2013, 15:17 #39351

    @Ricky RIP - I dont necessarily disagree with your response. Just not one to consider a 'performance' from a team (Arsenal) where one of the players probably earn more than the entire Bradford team, as anything worthy of note. That said, your point is well taken. @ Spaced - I couldnt disagree more with what you're saying 9albeit, I'm sure you didnt intend any offence): do you know how much fans have to pay for a hotdog at the emirates? And how hard people have to work, to pay for tickets, transportation cost to attend matches + get soaked to their undergarments like I did during our away game at Fulham!And to do that year after year! Do you think going through all that, to watch arsenal lose to lower league team almost regularly, is what it's all about? I can tell you there is not a single arsenal fan out there who would like to go to a rain-drenched game, and wish we lose, just to spite Wenger, or to come on here and type negative stuff. Much as we are all very disappointed with what Wenger has turned Arsenal into, especially as we were on the verge of dominating the english league (after an invincible season); we all still want to watch arsenal win (or we wont bother getting off our backsides, wasting 6+ hours each saturday and paying £8 for a hotdog!). It is all too easy for people who are not going through that sort of cost/torture, to come on here and yap away about how ungrateful fans are, or why we dare to question an employee (wenger) who now thinks he owns the club and goes 8 years without winning anything!

  73. Rocky RIP

    Sep 17, 2013, 15:02 #39350

    ''let me tell you that other than Jack and Cole, Wenger has not produced a single talent worthy of note.'' - I'll be honest, I haven't read the entire article as it seems to go over old, if not necessarily invalid, ground culled from Myles Palmer et al which I find exhausting. Can we ban 'groundhog day' on here please? It was unoriginal in 2001. Is the author suggesting Wenger hasn't developed any players beyond Cole and Jack? Do you mean home grown players coming through the club's ranks? In which case, not a million miles from the truth. If not, surely this completely overlooks the way he's turned cheap/free buys into world class players on a regular basis. These were HIS players. Not the ones produced by the academy and given a chance by him in the league cup, only to fall from notice 2 years later. Look up how much Cesc, RVP and Anelka cost. Then how much we sold them for and how good they'd become under Wenger's coaching. Give the man some credit for their development. (Apologies if I'm barking up the wrong tree. I just get wound up when people claim Wenger can't coach. Who developed these players we'd hardly heard of when they signed into household names wanted by all the other top clubs?! Some uncredited, mystery member of staff at Arsenal? How average was Henry when he joined? Who or what changed him into the world's best player?)

  74. Johnnyhawleyloovinggooner

    Sep 17, 2013, 14:51 #39349

    someone give chelsea £1.billion,that is how Di matteo won the CL.someone give man city £1.billion pounds,look at the way real madrid got the money to buy the spuds best player,look at manu is run on the money side,where are liverpool going to get the money for the new anfield?plenty of talk about but have they broken ground yet?arsenal earn every penny they have,no backer gives it to them,that is why we could not get hazard.building the new ground was a nightmare for the board,a huge risk and AW did try to scout players on the cheap.a lot failed as various people have pointed out,however the player trading account was in the black during the rebild.should the club of said first eight years will be tough then light at end of tunnel?well maybe so.we could not hold players because of arsenal's stadium building plan.if you want a benefactor to take over and throw money at players,then just say so.yes AW made big mistakes not as bad as liverpools or some of the players the spuds bought,so i think he should get this year to get things right and we will see if he should get a new contract.however,do not underestimate AW importance in seeing the ship through a rocky period(and it was a rocky period).anyone who has built a firm,a house or renovated anywhere should know how guickly things can change on a finicial front.i was told to find another 20 grand for a roof on one of my projects so i can see why the club was careful in the market.yes daiby and not-so super-nick were bad mistakes,but some of those mistakes the players themselves were to blame.

  75. will

    Sep 17, 2013, 14:45 #39348

    Arsenal are very lucky to have a world class manager who could get the same job at any club in the world there are people that hate the man but I suspect its the same 3 or 4 that spit venom at every opportunity they should look at what they have achieved certain not on same planet as wenger

  76. Gf60

    Sep 17, 2013, 14:33 #39347

    Thank Gawd for Rocky and Spaced. I'm far from being an AKB but will go for "Arsene knows a great deal more than the vast majority." He's done more for the club and hopefully, will do so in the future, than anybody inclusing Herb Chapman, Tom Whittaker and GG.

  77. Spaced

    Sep 17, 2013, 14:13 #39346

    Canada & Somak. I really don't see the point of selecting specific losses to poorer teams - - - In the 2001/02 season Arsenal lost 4-0 to Blackburn and 4-2 to Charlton. In 1997/98 season we lost 3-1 to Blackburn and 2-0 to Derby. Irrelevant.

  78. Rocky RIP

    Sep 17, 2013, 14:11 #39345

    Canada - yes, we got humiliated by the RESULT of losing to lower league opponents, which in a way is unforgivable. All I'm saying is stand back from the result and look at the performance. We were not 'outclassed and outplayed' as you say. Hence the 1-1 scoreline. (Nor should we ever be by a team that far below us.) I'm not making excuses, or claiming close shaves. I'm just asking you not to re-write history. We were in no sense 'outclassed' or even 'outplayed' by scrappy, plucky and let's be honest dirty Bradford. They won a penalty shoot out having clung on against us over extra time. They knew it was their only chance and they had a great shoot out record. Lesser teams often progress this way. The history of English cup competitions is littered with games like this.

  79. Tom O'B

    Sep 17, 2013, 13:54 #39344

    Lest we forget re Chamahk that Wenger waited a year to get him on a free and, of course, he was the amazing 'success' that Gervinho was - and Bendtner 'is'. Three total wastes of time. Strangely enough I'm a Gooner, going back to Terry Neill, and NOT an apologist for the Emperor (Mr Dein, PLEASE come back) aka Wenger. Guus Hiddink please, sooner than later.

  80. CanadaGooner

    Sep 17, 2013, 13:53 #39343

    @Rocky RIP: sorry mate, I forgot we stood toe to toe with the mighty Bradford and they only managed to pip us (and so did Blackburn); and Birmingham, and Wolves and all those teams we consistently lose to, who do not have a new stadium and do not pay a fraction of what we pay in wages to our players (pardon the sarcasm; but I just dont buy the excuses and close shaves)

  81. Spaced

    Sep 17, 2013, 13:52 #39341

    I agree Rocky. What bothers me now, is I think that so many (especially on this website) hate Wenger so much that they want Arsenal to fail just to satisfy their blood lust for the man... Maybe it's just the way it comes across but I get the impression that some of this lot would be disappointed if we won the league 'cos it would mean Wenger proved himself successful again! And, like you, I don't think the guy's anywhere near perfect, by any means.

  82. Grant

    Sep 17, 2013, 13:50 #39340

    i think a lot of you fans out there seam to forget we have not had to rely on a sugar daddy to buy as every major trophy going would rather wait and win trophy's on merit than with a check book.

  83. Rocky RIP

    Sep 17, 2013, 13:42 #39339

    @Spaced - spot on mate. Some seem to openly want us to fail and relish slagging us off. Only pop up to be negative about us. Given the number of Spu*s that popped up on here when we had a debate recently, it's fair to assume there are a few working behind enemy lines. Spreading malcontent under the name of, let's say 'Gooner Mike'. Moles. Some are just plain miserable Arsenal fans who find it impossible to praise us, ever. You wonder why they bother to be honest. They don't actually seem to even like Arsenal. And no, I don't preach blind loyalty. Constructive criticism where it's due; pressure where it's needed; and credit where it's warranted - simple perspective for the club I f'ing adore.

  84. Tony Evans

    Sep 17, 2013, 13:42 #39338

    Very good article summing up the spin doctor extraordinaire that is Wenger. Was it Bill Shankley that said first is first and second is nowhere? Obviously Wenger is not cut from the same cloth.

  85. John Gooner

    Sep 17, 2013, 13:36 #39337

    Somak, I can't help but agree with all you have said. Unfortunately, I don't think Wenger will ever be sacked, but with enough pressure they (the board) might not be able to extend his contract. I think that we as fans need to demand that Wenger challenges for the title and champions league this year as a minimum or there can be no case for renewing his contract. Hopefully the recent words of the AST will stick with the board despite the PR signing of Ozil; Wenger must prove, THIS SEASON, that he is up to the job, or leave gracefully. For me he should have been sacked after Fabregas and Nasri were sold, but as he is 'unsackable', I can only hope that he is let go.

  86. Spaced

    Sep 17, 2013, 13:12 #39336

    You lot love a moan don't you? Here we are; playing well, winning games.... anyone would think you WANT to see Arsenal fail!

  87. Rocky RIP

    Sep 17, 2013, 13:07 #39334

    @Canada - we weren't outplayed and outclassed by Bradford City. Otherwise we wouldn't have lost on penalties. Had players like Chamakh and Gervinho not been a total waste of space we would have won that comfortably. Yes, it was utterly humiliating to lose to lower league opponents and a low moment for us all, but in terms of the performance on the night it was a fairly even contest. They can happen on freezing nights in Yorkshire when the opposition are playing for their lives. Granted- it was a pants result, but let's not claim they wiped the floor with us, It was 1-1.

  88. Richard Lancaster

    Sep 17, 2013, 13:05 #39333

    My point was that Wenger is more down to earth when talking about money. Many people (outside of football) think that £80m is a lot of money for a football player as does Wenger, but does that make him frugal or just bad at football management? We have become disillusioned by the price of football players, thats my point.

  89. Ron

    Sep 17, 2013, 13:05 #39332

    There are redeeming arguments for AW but the content and thrust of your post is pretty much smack on matey!

  90. CanadaGooner

    Sep 17, 2013, 12:47 #39331

    I dont have a problem with the economics of building a stadium and not getting into too much debt etc. The problem I have with all that, is that it's the man we hired as a FOOTBALL manager, with the remit to win FOOTBALL matches and keep the club competitive as we develop, should not be the man leading the economics of the club! We pay other people for that, dont we? Unfortunately, with success, comes stubbornness and a belief that one is bigger than the club: and that's been Wenger's main downfall. He walks about, dabbling into every aspect of the business side of things, forgetting about what he was hired to do! I'm sure in 1996 Dein didnt tell Wenger he was being hired to develop a project called 'project youth' or build us a new stadium. If we were told in 2001 that building the stadium will require 8 years of winning nothing, I'm sure most fans would have opted to stay on at Highbury. In any case, WHAT HAS BUILDING A NEW STADIUM GOT TO DO WITH BEING OUTPLAYED & OUTCLASSED BY BRADFORD CITY FC? what has building a new stadium got to do with losing a carling cup final to Birmingham City, and Chelsea (fielding a squad of babies for a FINAL!!)? Most intelligent people can see through those excuses, as this is exactly what they are!

  91. Kevin

    Sep 17, 2013, 12:45 #39330

    In a nutshell.....the mans the biggest con artist in football!!

  92. Mic

    Sep 17, 2013, 12:33 #39329

    I think you just wrote a new definition of passive-aggressiveness. Bravo!