Being Conflicted - a Gooner disease

But will you take the cure?



Being Conflicted - a Gooner disease


Ok, let me start by thanking all of you who took the time to read my maiden blog on this site, in addition of course, those who decided to reply via some interesting comments. I have been writing blogs for some 10 years now. I began at Arsenal Forum followed by many enjoyable years at Arsenalinsider under the guise of Fabregas_The_King. I became Rocky the King after CF4 was sold to Barcelona. I have gone full circle with AW. For those replies to my blog "Despite Ozil, Stan is not the man" that are derogatory, it's like water off a duck's back for me. I’ve had worse abuse in my time. However what perhaps motivated this immediate and fulsome reply was the pain I continue to see in many replies from Gooners who frankly understand what it means to be a fan, but are conflicted by mistaking frank criticism for disloyalty. This state of confliction is a dreadful disease.

I write my blogs honestly and they reflect my position as a true Arsenal fan. I do not have to prove my club loyalty to anyone. For evidence of that I can state that I am a life member of the AST, I enjoy singing with the away supporters and hold two Gold seats at Emirates Stadium. I first wondered about AW when in 1998 I stood frustrated at the old Wembley screaming "Ian Wright Wright Wright" along with thousands of other Gooners and realised that this marvellous servant of the club who was the best finisher that I have ever witnessed at Arsenal, was being side-lined by this new French manager in favour of his chosen Anelka. I felt Ian Wright's pain, and even though he has been professional never to make anything out of this failure to give this legend even 2 minutes upon the hallowed turf against a beaten Newcastle United side during this FA Cup final, for me it was a slap in the face.

Then later after having travelled to Paris to see Titi Henry miss that chance in the CL final that would have put us two nil up against Barcelona with only 10 men in 2006, despite the loss, I was as proud as any other Gooner that night. I felt cheated by some pathetic professionalism by way of simulation. So I have felt the ups and down of ordinary Gooners. I have often wondered to myself why it seemed that all our best players ended up leaving under AW? Despite this I grew to accept and love AW and so much so that you can Google "FTK Sky Sports News & Arsene Wenger" and see my passionate interview in support of AW in 2009. I wrote what I regard as a classic blog in 2011 after we beat Barcelona in the CL. If you still remain unconvinced of my passion then why not Google and read "FTK blog and call to arms” to understand what I mean by supporting my Club. However why do I feel pain? This is because I perceive the current club motto having changed from victory through harmony "Victoria Concordia crescit" to "Victoria discidium crescit" or “Victory through division”

In August 2012 I said that Arsenal was not well run contrary to the prevailing consensus and finally agreed with others that AW should not be offered a new contract. I began to reflect why I had turned full circle against AW and the management side of the club. These are my honest opinions. I suppose it started with my take on the changes in the boardroom. Now let state by saying Danny Fizsman was a legendary fan and leader of the board. So RIP Danny Fiszman. However I cannot forgive him for leading the calls for the sacking David Dein in such a humiliating way in April 2007.

I honestly feel that this was the catalyst for our current woes. Fiszman loved AFC but was blinded by his fall out with David Dein. Fiszman saw the collective will of the board being undermined by the entrepreneurial spirit of David Dein. Yet what did Dein do wrong?

David Dein realised well before the rest of the PL that player wages could undo club finances. So increased Club revenues were needed but from where? Dein was a true visionary and this grated with the old Etonian chairman Sir Peter Hill-Wood. Danny Fiszman saw mutiny in Dein introducing a billionaire to the AFC Board in an informal manner. I have spoken personally with Nina Bracewell-Smith and believe me, if many of you passionate Gooners are conflicted, so was she. Recently she tweeted her frustration which can be found on the Internet under other providers if you look hard enough. She understood Dein's view that the board needed fresh blood.

Dein saw that AFC needed to capture the emerging digital market, and that there was one man who could do both. So who did Dein bring to the club, that so angered PHW and Fiszman? In the cruellest irony of Ironies, the one and only Stan Kroenke our current owner. He was married to an heiress of Wal-Mart, had excellent connections in the digital business and was a billionaire.

What I respect about SK is that at least he has been honest. Coming to the Arsenal was purely a business proposition. He openly confessed from the outset that "I wouldn’t want to be involved if I thought we would struggle."

The sacking destabilised the club for a short while. I recall fearing that we would lose his close friend and confidant AW who said at the time

"It is a huge disappointment because we worked very closely together, David has contributed highly to the success of the club in the last 10 years and even before that as well. Red and white are the colours of his heart"

Even the great Titi Henry later admitted that Dein's departure as vice-chairman had dismayed him and left him in no doubt that it was time to move on...

I later bumped into David Dein outside the Stadium two seasons ago and begged him to return, he also looked conflicted. He said nothing, we had just lost another home game and fans were very unhappy. Fiszman later entered into a pact with none other than SK to prevent David Dein's new sponsor from Red and White, Alisher Usmanov from gaining a stake in the Arsenal. Now for all his alleged baggage, and opportunistic tendencies, Alisher Usmanov is richer than Abromovich, owns 29% of the shares but cannot get a seat on the Board. Surely someone who has invested so heavily in the club has a right to have a say at Board level? SK would still own the club, but at least he would be exposed to alternate views. Usmanov and Moshiri have shown more maturity in their public utterances of late, realising that commenting upon the weaknesses of the club when times are bad have left them open to charges of crude opportunism. They have resorted to constructive strategic suggestions and I hope to hear more soon as the AGM approaches.

Recall that it was Red&White that argued for a share issue that would not only have provided much needed cash to buy players but also would have helped AST's fanshare scheme in my view, but the Board was against it. Some say of Red&White that this was a cynical attempt to dilute the value of SK's shareholding. I believe eventually when figures merit it, SK will sell up and move on. Something unheard of in his history of owning club franchises. He will have made incalculable profits when remember he took out loans to purchase his shares. This meant the minimising of personal risk in my opinion. Not typical of Arsenal owners of the decades previously. In fact I viewed the departure of PHW with a tinge of sadness despite his famed eccentric outbursts. Under the Hill-Wood and Bracewell-Smith partnership, Arsenal Football club became a marque to be proud of not only in doing things with style "The Arsenal Way" but also on the field by regularly setting national transfer records. How much has changed eh?

So back to the theme of conflicted fans of our club. I believe that many fans see loyalty to their Board as a badge of pride, they also see loyalty to AW as a true philosophy, they wish to state publicly that they are as fervent in their support in bad times as well as good times, and this means that fans cannot bring themselves to show a united front against bad management, this is not "the AFC" way. Pride has blinded us. They prefer to turn upon anyone who dares criticise the club with a savagery which produces stupid comments like telling me to go and support the Spuds.

Yet they ignore the way that the board has taken the club out of the reach of ordinary grassroots’ fans who after buying their tickets cannot afford the food at the stadium let alone Diamond membership.

Also the Arsenal Board if manifest by their website will not tolerate any criticism what so ever. The site's typos have become as legendary as those of The Guardian broadsheet. They want as many Facebook likes as possible and have used their lure of financial reward through click throughs to persuade almost blind allegiance from bloggers. Remember Arseblog? It used to be "F**king Excellent" but even reading a recent article by Tim Stillman you can feel Stillman’s painful state of being conflicted. Fair play to Arseblog, it's about making a living, but I wonder if he can really sleep easily at night after changing the name of his blog and the original rudeness of his style of writing?

This kind of totalitarian tendency from the site worries me. Control the criticism and guarantee survival it seems to state. Yet while apparently supporting or some might say indirectly controlling what it sees as a mainstream Gooner blog, can fans now expect ever increasing amounts of benign loyal copy to be written? They might be forgiven for pointing to the saying "He who pays the piper calls the tune"? So who will stand up and in true Yorkshire style say it as it is?

If we are to keep the true heart and soul of this club then the Board needs to change and embrace different views from moderates or sadly the extremist solutions become ever more attractive. So please support your players on the pitch and AW their manager this season as they strive to bring back the good times at the club, but remember not to so blinded that you cannot make constructive complaints or observations about the way your club is run off the field or during transfer windows. Equally you are allowed to make constructive criticism of the manager after bad results come in. Yes Arsenal Football Club and AW have no divine right to win trophies but I firmly believe in accountability and this has not been evident from the board's posturing. It's not about saying I told you so, it's about giving all supporters respect on either side of the divide. It's about bringing the club back closer to its grass roots whilst still being able to fund the kind of club that can compete at the highest level.

Now about listening to those around you, why oh why must AW control everything about the club? If he had welcomed alternative views and more help, he would not have tarnished his legacy. He is so proud that he often exclaims, why buy someone in who is no better than the ones I have? A classic cause of our confliction, for we have to accept what AW says or see the evidence of our eyes in Stepanovs or Squillaci? What will AW have learned from his pursuit of Suarez? That some clubs will never strengthen a rival under any circumstances. A lesson to be learned too late after AW gifted MUFC the title with sale of Robin van Persie. So attack me if you wish, but my passion and love for this club will not stop me saying that AW's pride has blinded the great man himself. I have tweeted in the past about AW "All men make mistakes, but a good man yields when he knows his course is wrong and repairs the evil, the only crime is pride... Sophocles"

I also feel that the divisions over the manager at the club have been the greatest that I can ever recall, ok there was division over O'Neill but was it this hostile? I think not. So if you disagree with my take on history at the club, please feel free to articulate a response. However if you wish to throw abuse in my direction remember it’s very easy to tow the party line. It actually takes courage to say what is right even if it flies in the face of the prevailing consensus. So in return provide me with your solutions as the status quo is not bringing unity to the club.


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  1. Moscow Gooner

    Sep 23, 2013, 7:36 #39588

    The current run is great, being top of the league is great, beating Sp**rs is great, Ozil is great. None of this removes legitimate concern about the direction of the club - I would suggest it was pressure from the support that forced AW's hand on buying Ozil. (After all he said only a few weeks that without reinforcements the squad was good enough to challenge for the title!) And more pressure will be needed to ensure that we strengthen in the January transfer window. We are on a wing and a prayer at the moment - and let's face it there have been many other 'false dawns' over the past eight years; you don't have to be a cynic to suggest that with a couple more injuries the wheels will come off. Failing to build more depth into the squad over the Summer was negligent. But I do agree that as fans we now need to unite, get behind the team, pray that Giroud (and Ramsey) stay fit and look to lift a trophy....

  2. BADARSE

    Sep 22, 2013, 21:47 #39587

    Number one! What a nice feeling, looking down on the rest. Aaron still doing it! Maguiresbridge Gooner, thanks for the wishes, was in text contact with my buddy whilst kicking a ball about on the beach in hot sunshine. Whooped like a child at the final whistle. Hope your knee gets better soon pal, I expect low down joints have always been your undoing. S.G.R.B, you may be right about my view of things regarding JAMIE, life is all about perceptions. Debate I accept, it's the repetition which numbs my brain. I still admire you though. I hope that isn't too embarrassing for you, ha ha. Sleep well Gooner, regards from a balmy Marseille.Y

  3. ROCKY THE KING

    Sep 22, 2013, 15:34 #39586

    Now that is winning when it counts Lets bottle this feeling, and for MaguireGooner, hope your leg gets better soon. For all Gooners, lets bask in the afterglow TOP OF THE LEAGUE!!!! Enjoy... C'mon you Gunners, walking back from the stadium with very happy Gooners from the Emirates, brings back good memories.

  4. maguiresbridge gooner

    Sep 22, 2013, 12:50 #39584

    Rocky also looking forward to more articles from yourself BADASRE enjoy Marseille, me i was supposed to be at the match today that was until yesterday when i done me knee and i'm now stuck in front of the tv with sky, but it's not coffee i'll be drinking.

  5. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Sep 22, 2013, 11:59 #39583

    Badarse, it's just a debate, for debating's sake - for the enjoyment of the debate, 'fruitless and pointless' though it may be. No one is being hurt or ganged up on. This is a comments section, the very purpose of which is to exchange views and to debate. If everyone just wallows in the moment on here and we all just 'be', then there will be nothing to talk about, will there.

  6. ROCKY THE KING

    Sep 22, 2013, 11:55 #39582

    Listen everyone we are Gooners at the end of the day, express your frustration but respect the views of your kindred fans. No-one can do anything more than continue to push for change, but at the same time when our lads take to the field, we must be behind them 100% We are the Arsenal and we are the best, we are the Arsenal so Fxxk all the rest! I worry that when I write a positive blog next, many will be more preoccupied with wondering if I am a hypocrite. Remember Özil came to us as a result of continued unhappiness being expressed by Gooners on the airwaves and youtube. But when we have the moment when some among us a knowledge the pain but trust in future change, don't see that as weakness. I'm off to the Rocket before the game to see if Gooners will sing my tribute to Ramsey. The intro sung twice is to the melody Hymns and Arias and the finale to bread of heaven! a real welsh flavor. So here it is and sing it loudly. "And we are singing... For Aaron Ramsey, For Aaron Ramsey, How good is he? Then... Aaron Ramsey... Aaron Ramsey, Beee a Gooonaaa ever more! Ever mooooore! Beee a Goooonaaa ever more!" Enjoy the game lads!!!

  7. BADARSE

    Sep 22, 2013, 8:41 #39581

    S.G.R.B, I am close to being sucked back in again, so refuse to be so. What I was trying to illustrate was clearly obvious, but a little left field perhaps. Of course we will never know of 'what might have been', that is a blessing, no mistake. I wanted to stand with westlower as I share his outlook, and as mentiond on prior occasions I have seen one stand alone against a group, that offends my sensibilities. Now I shall step away from this. It is fruitless and pointless. People just go around and around. It remains their prerogative, but I too can choose when to get on and off the carousel. I am enjoying the moment, are you? If so, as much? The open secret to a stable and calm existance is to avoid the extreme reactions, when possible, a dilemma I have battled against all my life. You want a change at the top, I am awaiting developments. A change is imminent, because we cannot go on for ever anyway, and the owner, the board and players are really on a moving conveyor belt towards the end, like us all. You do what you do best, and I wish you luck, and harmony. Oh and Marseillelooks amazing from my window, and if you were here I would happily take you to the vieux port and buy you a coffee and we could sit and chat about Arsenal, and not 'movements', just wallowing in mutual joy of being an Arsenal family.

  8. Westlower

    Sep 22, 2013, 7:57 #39580

    SGRB, You are confirming my point that the board do know how and when to get rid of a manager, should it be deemed necessary to do so. Compared to other clubs we back our managers and are not easily influenced by outside opinion. Tony, As for short-termism, AFC went 17 years without winning anything when I first began supporting them. Then came the glorious night at Highbury winning the European Fairs Cup. Overturning a 1-3 first leg deficit, then up popped Eddie Kelly, the much maligned Jon Sammels & Big Raddy. Take a bow gentlemen! My definition of short-termism is wanting to get rid of the manager after 'losing' a 3-3 tie with Bayern Munich after losing '1-1' to Bradford. We cannot continually 'rock the boat' every time a result doesn't go our way. It would be managing by mayhem, perhaps Di Canio would be appropriate as a long-term manager to replace our steady captain? I'm sure he'll be available anytime soon. Be careful what you wish for! Badarse, I envy your trip to Marseille, enjoy!!!

  9. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Sep 22, 2013, 1:47 #39579

    Badarse, there is no conundrum. You are positing a 'what if' scenario against what did happen. Wright DID go, Mee took over. Neill DID go, GG took over. The illustrious consequences are there. All Westlower has done in his most recent post is give further credence to what did happen. Those managers laid some foundations, others then delivered on them. That would not have happened if Westlower's philosophy had been followed to its rational conclusion - keep all managers in charge until their contracts run out or they decide to go, because that's the 'Arsenal' way of doing things. Here is an example that will get many onside: Dein got rid of Rioch after one season - very 'un-classy', very 'un-Arsenal' as the Westlower philosophy would have it. Who came next?

  10. Tony

    Sep 21, 2013, 20:40 #39576

    The problem with our fans is they are short-termist.Last season was a terrible season losing in both domestic cups to lower division teams and getting knocked out AGAIN in the CL when we played the first half decent team we faced but the deluded fans forgot all that all they remember is the last ten games of the season and finishing 4th again.The answer i want to hear from those deluded fans is how much longer do you give Wenger to win the premiership or CL? till the end of this season,the 10th anniversary of our last title win,another 4 years or another 10 years.When do we pull the plug.Because this season he cant use the excuse that we didnt have any money.No title win or no CL win and its get you coat Wenger and piss off to Paris.No short-termism from me

  11. maguiresbridge gooner

    Sep 21, 2013, 19:28 #39575

    Mick, i couldn't agree with you more, the time for excuses IS over and his apologists know it, and more importantly so does OGL, as for the GSTSB ignore them everybody else does, their JCL's and know no better.

  12. BADARSE

    Sep 21, 2013, 18:16 #39574

    Thanks for the article, and the connection Rocky, you are indeed the King. I sit in a fourth floor apartment, double sets of french windows open to the sounds from the street, still at 25°! Caught a glimpse of the Velodrome, wore the badge with pride. Marseille is European City of Culture 2013, and is perhaps the greatest city on the planet. The new museums are an architect's dream. Wandered the Panier district after all, put the ball away as we approached a group of kids with a burst ball, who remarked that ours looked good. It has been cleaned up a lot in recent years. We ate superb ice cream and fresh fruit, al fresco style, on the edge of the district, magnifique! We leave soon for a nice evening's meal, I shall raise a glass to you buddy. Thanks again, Good Old Arsenal.

  13. Ronster

    Sep 21, 2013, 17:38 #39572

    Mick...and he's been a manager for 29 years and 21 of those have been trophyless.

  14. ROCKY THE KING

    Sep 21, 2013, 12:35 #39571

    Tanks Paddy :-) I do write shorter and more pithy blogs, and besides, we all have busy lives eh? I agree about the cross section of fans on this site, who express their views as they are encouraged and entitled to do!

  15. Paddy

    Sep 21, 2013, 11:44 #39570

    Rocky - Glad you'll be writing some more blogs for the Online Gooner, which in my view is the best of the fan websites because it publishes views from a wide cross section of the fan base and I also agree that the people who comment are in general respectful and insightful. Look forward to reading more of your thoughts in the future, although you might consider making your articles a bit shorter. This one, whilst good, was a bit on the long side.

  16. ROCKY THE KING

    Sep 21, 2013, 11:17 #39569

    Thanks again for the comments. I read every one when I review the blog. I used to reply to every comment, but work and time prvent such a fulsome discourse. I am happy to enter into debate either on here or on twitter. What I see from the contributions here are the divisions that I referred to in my blog. There seems a resentment that these issues are raised despite a winning streak for the team. Well let me remind you that this was a REPLY blog. I am utterly thrilled that the lads are in good form. But to be absolutely critical, we did have the necessary share of luck, and Marseille should have made more of Valbeuna's excellent ball carrying. Ozil had a quiet game for once and as for Theo, I find myself conflicted about him at the moment too! Anyway, let's all agreed that WHAT UNITES US IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN WHAT DIVIDES US. We the Gooner family, must re-learn how to be tolerant and start having a laugh again, I will be writing a range of blogs, not always about the negative side of Arsenal, which lets face has been done to death. I don't need to point out how threadbare the squad is, I don't need to remind everyone of the frustrations we feel. This site is not the haven for criticising the club ala "Le Grove" style when in came on the scene. We have the Black scarf movement to diss the club every week. Here on Online Gooner I see a group of highly thoughtful and articulate fans who wrestle with the issues of the day, and I hope to grow in our relationship as I respond to the footballing topics that come up for conversation. I have several blogs that I want to write. Diving and how the FA should deal with it, FIFA and the mess that is the 2022 World cup, and I also want to share a bit of humour too. So remember, every cloud has a silver lining, and even though AW is again setting himself up for criticism by stating that we are one of four or five that can win the league, we must enjoy supporting our club. We feel the pain of the frustrated many, and let's hope that we can share the joy when we do well. I am beginning to see the flavours of the regular contributors, but I would also urge the SILENT majority who do not leave comments, to leave an assessment of my blogs, either by rating or a simple I agree, or I don't agree. For hwo can we really understand the consensus that is Gooner land? Anyway, to BadArse, I enjoy Marseille too. I understand what you mean as I too regularly travel there as my daughter lives with my ex french wife there. I love the smell of the Vieux Port and the banter between the men as they drink pastiche and play Petanque. France is my second home, and I love the language too. So S'amusez vous bien, mon ami. A tout a l'heure!!!

  17. BADARSE

    Sep 21, 2013, 10:20 #39568

    By a crazy, and in a way,coincidental twist of fate, I find myself this morning enjoying the Marseille sun streaming through my window. A long since booked trip to see, and stay with friends. I am about to venture out into that sunshine now, wearing the badge. I will not visit the Pannier district so I should be relatively safe. Will have a swagger and bounce in my step...ah, small things! ha ha.

  18. BADARSE

    Sep 21, 2013, 9:38 #39567

    OK, westlower, I am here for a short while to share the load. Firstly, chris, Ron, and JAMIE should see my last post on the previous article. Now what is it with you Back to the Future types? You cannot reflect on past revolutions in bringing down past managers, (which I dispute your influence with anyway), and claim responsibility for the joys and successes that followed. To claim credit for that, it follows you are indirectly responsible for Arsene Wenger! Thank you very much, so I have to be grateful for raucous behaviour from a few unruly fans for what is my Arsenal. Please mature, grow up! Life continues in an unbroken flow. People come and go. Evolution occurs, for better, and for worse in an individualistic point of view. That is life! So you got rid of Terry Neill which heralded the arrival of GG, what if he hadn't come? Perhaps another had stepped unto the breach and had won us the European Cup? Hang on! That means you are responsible for denying AFC a glittering prize. Shame on you! Do you see the conundrum, gentlemen?

  19. Westlower

    Sep 21, 2013, 9:27 #39566

    Tony, A successful team takes time to evolve. Agreed the Billy Wright era was probably the worst period in our recent history but we had a brilliant forward line. In 63/64 Baker & Strong scored 31 goals each, can you imagine that today?The problem was we couldn't defend. Every cloud has a silver lining. Wright signed Frank McLintock, later Rioch signed DB, arguably the two most important signings in Arsenals history. The young team that Wright handed over to Mee contained Armstrong, Radford, Sammels, Simpson, Wilson, Storey & McLintock. This formed the backbone of the 70/71 team. We fans can demand success but it happens when all the jigsaw pieces fall into place. Historically AFC rarely sack managers and we all know that AW will be allowed to see out hos contract. To those who think every club suffers the same amount of injuries as AFC I can only point out that currently we have as many long term injuries as Man U, Man City, Chelsea & Spurs combined. It beggars belief some people thinks this makes no difference.

  20. Bard

    Sep 21, 2013, 8:24 #39564

    Mick; you are absolutely right in my opinion. Its a results business. Wenger's success was almost a decade ago and the day of reckoning is long over due. I cannot for the life of me understand those who uncomplainingly support a mediocre manager and a mediocre team. Yes he wins something this year or he walks. I've posted before that despite all the current euphoria surrounding the recent results, this team has no hope of winning either the league or the champions league.

  21. Mick

    Sep 21, 2013, 6:31 #39563

    What the AKB's will not admit is Wenger has to win a trophy to earn a new contract.Not the 4th place trophy.Why is it too much to ask the 3rd richest club in the world to win silverware?The time for excuses is over.It is not a crime to question a manager who has failed for 8 years in a row.Yet i am told to f**k off and support Spurs.Its 17 years Wenger has been in charge 12 of those seasons have been trophyless

  22. Westlower

    Sep 21, 2013, 5:57 #39562

    SGRB - I WAS one of the hardcore on the North Bank & Clock End. Yes we can jump up and down squealing until the cows come home but ultimately the people who run AFC will make the managerial decisions. They are not the fools you paint them to be!

  23. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Sep 20, 2013, 21:30 #39561

    Westlower, I wasn't around at either time but those 'lynch mobs' were in fact the old hardcore who stood on the North Bank and Clock End, who saw when a manager's time was up before the board were prepared to act. Look up the history. Still, we know where you stand now. You would have preferred Wright to have carried on rather than Mee taken over. You would have preferred Neill to have carried on (that FA Cup win was 4 years before he left) rather than have the GG era. Loyalty to whoever is currently the manager takes precedence over all else. As I say, thank god others don't share your philosophy.

  24. Westlower

    Sep 20, 2013, 20:08 #39560

    The problem 'we' face is supporting one of the worlds great clubs, playing in one of the worlds greatest stadiums, watching a team of talented Internationals creating club record wins while playing in CL & PL. It's tough but some of us HAVE to support that!

  25. Green Hut

    Sep 20, 2013, 19:57 #39559

    Westlower- 'Shall we get rid of him as we're bored with his brand of top 4 football?'. Yes very much so, but obviously you, and many like you, are not. That's the problem we face.

  26. Westlower

    Sep 20, 2013, 18:59 #39558

    Green Hut, Where did 'job for life' come from? AW's contract expires in 2014. If he wins a trophy has he earned an extension to his contract or shall we get rid off him as we're bored with his brand of top 4 football? You anti's must have got through a lot of knitting waiting for the next managerial execution. Some 'old farts' have seen a lot of dross at Arsenal over the years, maybe some of you have forgotten how heartbreaking it is to watch a struggling Arsenal side. Reading between the lines of some critical posts I doubt some of you have ever supported the team through protracted 'bad times,' There certainly haven't been any in the past 17 years. A crisis these days is triggered off by getting knocked out of the League Cup. Please!

  27. Green Hut

    Sep 20, 2013, 18:24 #39557

    Westlower- Since when did trophies mean a job for life? It's quite possible for a grown up to appreciate past achievements whilst realising the need for change. The most depressing Arsene FC fans are the guilt-ridden hand wringers.

  28. maguiresbridge gooner

    Sep 20, 2013, 18:01 #39556

    Good piece Rocky. There's a hell of a lot of fans that have turned full circle against wenger and the management side of the club regardless of the spin machine(and we all know the reasons)and that's certainly not being disloyal to the club we love although wenger apologists would try and tell you it is, especially the go support the spuds brigade, i'd love to know what age some of the people who come out with that are, JCL's no doubt who know no better because no true Arsenal fan would say that to another no matter what side of the fence they sit on. Yes it's sad that there is so much conflict between fans at the minute especially when you think back to the good days and the glory days like the unbeaten season. But the fans who have come full circle and have different opinions to others and don't agree with everything that is happening and has happened over the last eight years (and not just buried their head in the sand and ignored them, and are not afraid to say so, by airing their views and criticising)do not have to prove their loyalty to anyone and never will, because we were here long before this manager and the current regime and we'll be here long after their gone and forgotten about, still supporting the club we love. And indeed that can be said about everybody no matter what our views, but maybe not the arsene fc supporters that when the time comes follow him to his next club.

  29. Westlower

    Sep 20, 2013, 18:00 #39555

    SGRB, I'm eternally grateful that I'm not part of the lynch mob that terminates AFC's managers tenure. You've obviously proud of the part you played in getting Wright & Neil dismissed. Neil got Arsenal to 3 FA Cup Finals & the EUFA Cup Winners Cup Final as a result of beating Man U 3-2 at Wembley in possibly the greatest Cup Final of all time. Seemingly in recent posts there are plenty of Gooners who crave a good Cup side & would rate Neil as a success.

  30. Ron

    Sep 20, 2013, 17:31 #39554

    SGRB - 42372. UI think thats absolutely spot on actually. You having to make the point does in fact show that there are amny whove only known AW and dont see change at Clubs often needing to be puched for. BADARSE made a point in an earlier post he said ' we all get the Club we deserve'. Well, it doesnt happen naturally does it, so i would say to him. We do have a voice and when that voice has been heard in the decades ive gone to the Arsenal its ultimately resulted in better prospects as a result i.e your comments now being so true. It takes a lot to motivate our fans to shout 'foul' but when we have its usually been proved right.

  31. Beggars Belief.

    Sep 20, 2013, 17:15 #39553

    @ Grumpy Man: You wrote: "It's always frustrating when we are being critical of the club and then the team goes on a winning streak." When somebody finds it frustrating that the team they support goes on a winning streak they ought to be sent off to the funny farm. Imagine if we won the league. My lord you'd probably slit your wrists. I do not understand people like you.

  32. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Sep 20, 2013, 16:58 #39552

    Moving on, I'd also take issue with the broader 'support whoever is in charge' philosophy of westlower. It was fan pressure that got rid of both Wright and Neill. Without critical, questioning fans, we'd never have had the Bertie Mee era (after Wright) or the GG era (after Neill and the Howe interval). So, westlower himself should be grateful not everyone shares his philosophy.

  33. Chris

    Sep 20, 2013, 16:25 #39551

    SGRB - Finally, at the risk of being even more boring - until your coda, I didn't actually think you were referring to me, but as one who has been falsely accused of being an 'Arsene supporter' I was motivated to react to your comment. Regarding 'short term pain for long term gain' - I agree that is distinct from what I am talking about but that's not how I remember the conversations I'm referring to going. I remember (and can't be bothered to check so I hold my hands up if I'm wrong) talk of it being better if he went just to restore hope, even if that hope wasn't fulfilled. Obviously at some point there will be an upturn so I'm guessing the point was that they would rather the manager was removed for the period between now and the upturn than him stay, given the choice. As I've said, I'm not one of those. Anyway, I seem to have come full circle, that's more than enough from me so I'll get me coat...

  34. Chris

    Sep 20, 2013, 16:12 #39550

    For the record - I can believe there may be a small handful (literally) of folk who came to support Arsenal after Wenger was the manager, who are more supporters of him than the club and who's 'support' would be withdrawn if he were to leave. But I think their numbers must tiny, certainly much more tiny than the 'significant minority' you talk about. I apologise if I have over-reacted but I seriously doubt that many of the folk you are talking about would actually withdraw support were Wenger to leave, although I can imagine there are some who so want him to stay that they would still want that even if it was an impediment to the club's future success (to a certain limited extent). In general, I think you use the idea of 'Arsene supporters' as a means to discredit folk with opposing views to your own and to pressurise the weak amongst them to re-consider their position. I can't think of any other reason that you would bang on about it so much.

  35. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Sep 20, 2013, 16:11 #39549

    Chris, it seems you've decided to refer back to much earlier, points scoring bickering that took place between us rather than my much more recent acknowledgment that you do have a cut off point where Wenger is concerned. So you see, the 'accusations' I've made here were not directed at you in the first place. I'm afraid it's not all about you, Chris. You've been getting unnecessarily hot under the collar. On your other point, the 'short term pain, long term gain' argument has been made by a few on here precisely because they want to see an upturn, not 'even without an upturn' as you are trying to portray it.

  36. Chris

    Sep 20, 2013, 15:53 #39548

    SGRB - you really couldn't make it up! Following your own accusations and snide 'I can't imagine' coda, you're accusing me of trying to re-start something. Let's just say this - folk (yourself included) have stated that they would rather see Wenger go even if they didn't think there would be an upturn in results, because this would lead to a restoration of hope. I did, in fact, check out the Emirates Stadium blog (Untold Arsenal) and saw the following strap line: "Supporting the club, the players and the manager." Which doesn't sound like a blog devoted to Lord Arsene at the expense of the club (although perhaps I need to look more closely). So on the one hand we have people admitting to what I've brought up (they want Wenger out, even without an upturn) and on the other hand we've got people (including myself) that you have accused of being 'Arsene supporters' stating that we wouldn't in a million years change from supporting the club they (I) supported for 20 years before Wenger came just because he left. I'll leave other people to draw there own conclusions. I will add that in West Africa I have come across Chelsea supporters a few years ago admitting that they supported Chelsea because of Drogba / Essien etc but I have never heard of anyone, anywhere, admitting they would change their team because of the manager.

  37. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Sep 20, 2013, 15:28 #39547

    Chris, it seems rather than bother to look up the evidence I've cited you've decided to throw a tantrum and wish to restart bickering that must be getting on for a year old. I'm surprised / annoyed that you're trying to start all that up again. Afraid I'm not going to play, it got tiresome long, long ago. I'll simply point out you've stated you cannot believe that anyone would place support for Wenger over Arsenal, yet can believe the opposite - wanting Wenger to leave more than AFC succeed. I'll leave others to draw their own conclusions from that.

  38. Ron

    Sep 20, 2013, 15:24 #39546

    Hi Chris - Im one whos wanted him to go of his choosing over the last 2-3 years as i think the signs have all been there to suggest he should and im not wanting him just to be recalled for failing, which of course he hasnt really, if the perreniel top 4 is success (we cd all debate that for years cdt we?). Im of the view he ll go in the Summer of 2014, though i said this last year. He certainly shouldnt be sacked now as some do say. Its not Arsenal s way to do that anyway is it. For me, if he goes in the Summer he ll go as being still an excellent manager albeit one thats done his time at Arsenal for me. Ive never shared the view that hes a great one though. I dont like the 'you dont know what youre doing' stuff and nor the 'spend some f----- money' stuff either. He doesnt deserve mindless vitriol at all, though im sure he can handle it. My main view of what shapes him, is that AW is at odds with himself over how the game has gone. Hes a man of principles, and the tacky way the game has degenerated will displease him as i see it. He loves football and the aesthetics of it and hes entilted to do so. I think his aesthetics just arent suited to english football, though hes made a helluva fist of trying to bolt them on to the game here. Its the stubbornness thats undoing him though in that he s badly compromised by letting his principles affect his descions too much and thus it shows in his manangement.I suppose the for and against AW arguments all get heated at times by all of us.Its a shame, but the very fact it happens is testimony to the man. I d love AW to ram my opinions of his present day methods right back down my throat. I really would. Arsene has made us all the idealists we all are nowadays after all. We re lucky as Arsenal fans whatever he does and im sure he would engage in a great debate with us if he was ever allowed too. He d destroy most of us im sure, but then he knows whats really gone on in the corridors of power there and we never will.

  39. Mark Mywords

    Sep 20, 2013, 15:21 #39545

    Overly long and more about Rocky the King than Arsenal Football Club. I lost the will to live half way through. Next time, can you get to the point?

  40. Chris

    Sep 20, 2013, 14:49 #39544

    Ron – I’m with you on Wenger, I’m sure he is a thoroughly decent and nice chap. Sadly, however, there are numerous twisted individuals within our fan base who dislike him despite probably never having met him. And actually, there are fans who have said they would take no improvement or even a drop in performance to replace Wenger in the name of restoring hope (SGRB – is this ringing any bells…?) I don’t think I’ve ever suggested that the media was responsible for anti-Wenger feelings so I guess those comments weren’t addressed to me and I’d agree that the media treat Wenger no differently to any other manager – to the extent there is negative press about him, this would be alleviate were his teams to start winning again. They’re just exploiting vulnerability as they always do. Finally, obviously we’re reaching the end of the Wenger era, the guy will retire soon enough if he doesn’t leave for other reasons – the question is whether it should be now, and I don’t think so.

  41. Chris

    Sep 20, 2013, 14:32 #39543

    SGRB - I'm not exaggerating anything. My position is as I've stated and yet I can say that you have accused me many times of being 'a supporter of Arsene, not of Arsenal' and suggested I follow him to his next club when all I have done is espouse the same views I am still doing now. That's why your comments hit a nerve with me, so it's a peculiar circularity that you imply your comments could only resonate with those who are 'Arsene supporters'. By accusing me of it, you appear to be making it true, by your implied standards. I hope you don't work in law.... For the record, I've never been to Untold Arsenal and don't know what you are talking about re the recent GG comment (from what you've said I wouldn't be surprised if you are reading too much into something - did you pick the author up on it?). So please, do me a favour with the new-found facade of reasonableness and you can keep your snide 'I can't imagine why' remarks wherever you see fit (but preferably somewhere well away from daylight).

  42. Redshirtswhitesleeves

    Sep 20, 2013, 14:26 #39542

    Always find myself agreeing with Ron and tony Evans on most things arsenal and they are bang on the money again here. My first game was 1979 at highbury and it soon became clear that arsenal were a cut above in terms of class tradition and identity even if it didnt always quite equate to success on the pitch.. I too have become disillusioned over last few years with the way football has become big business and money and to hell with the humble paying fan. Since the move from highbury to the new ground we have lost that identity and along with it the soul of our once great club, to the point where if we lose I shrug and it doesn't bother me whereas before I couldn't sleep at night. I don't have the consolation of knowing that so what if we lost I know inside that I support the greatest club in the world anymore. Sad times and I would give my right arm to have my arsenal back but fear those days are gone forever.

  43. Westlower

    Sep 20, 2013, 14:11 #39540

    Ron, My philosophy is simple. I'll support whoever the Arsenal manager is. Whitaker, Wright, Mee, Neil, Howe, GG, Houston, Rioch, AW. I'm completely at ease should AW leave at the end of the season and also relaxed should he stay. I believe in the Arsenal way of running a football club. The manager should be left to manage in his own style whoever is in the hot seat. 60,000 fans would do things differently but the reality is we'd all sh*t ourselves if we were given the job. I look forward to whoever the next manager is and be assured he'll have my total support for his tenure. The King is dead, long live the King!!!

  44. Ron

    Sep 20, 2013, 13:55 #39539

    Chris and westlower - respect both your views as i always try too. You both exaggerate though a bit. Im not sure there are fans who would change Wenger just for the sake if it are there? If there are, theyre in an institution somewhere i guess. Its also a myth to suggest that so many are sky and medis influenced. I can speak for myself and many guys who i know, who hardly watch TV never mind that SKY garbage and nor do i buy red tops. My views are shaped by what ive seen and deduced for quite a few years and i know many others whove harboured doubts about Wenger as far back as 2001/2. All done on their own by discussion and argument yes certainly, but all reasonable and intellignent people who follow the Club. Its my view that shouting 'oh theyre all swallowing anti Wenger media drivel' is the resort of AW s desciples failing to be strong enough to see the end of an era when it happens and / or the fear of it.Not only that, im not sure there is much 'Wenger out' media drivel. The pundits on that SKY and BBC trash and the other channels are all so hamstrung in what theyre allowed to say, it cdt happen anyway. As to 'disliking' Wenger, what twaddle. How many have met him? He seems a gem of a bloke to me, very courteous and intelligent albeit a master of turning an argument to suit his pre ordained conclusions. Id love to meet him and discuss football with him generally and cant wait for his inevitable book. I bet hes great company too. Hes a step apart from most Coaches who seems pretty dim basically save for football. I say to you guys, drop your defences a little and see things for what they are and not for what you want them to be. I accept that my views could all prove to be wide of the mark in the final outcome and if they are i promise you ill be on here saying so fellas and be pleased to do so. Im not expecting any glory though come next May nontheless. The Club just isnt set up or staffed to provide it (in my view).

  45. Non conformist

    Sep 20, 2013, 13:44 #39538

    I used to pay fifty pence to get in the schoolboys,ten under tens would meet in the local playground and walk to the ground,we would see groups of juvenile excitedly descend on highbury from all angles,once in we would go down the front on the righthand side ,every time their was a goal box incident someone slipped over into the north bank,most games we would be happy to stay behind the goal and make as many waves and surges as we cold muster ,those with light fingers would help themselves to a badge or two,but hey that's what we liked to do ,it was not long before we were off on our adventures ,if the north bank wasn't under sige by a London raiding party we would head for the west lower fence that nimble members like ourselves could take a deep suck of our breath and squeeze through ,hey presto the clock end,know this was fun ,punks ,skinheads and fisticuffs.norwich at home was a real bore so much so that even the clock end could not quench our thirst for life,off we went around to the east by the St. John's amb,up and over into the seats and we were nearly their,all that was left todo was get in that window that faced the corner flag!nothong could stop us ,we had come to far ,stretch ,heave and in ,up we went stairs that went on forever and ever up up up and finally we made I t,walk slowly slowly to the centre and in WHAT A SIGHT TO BEHOLD staring down on highbury fro m the east upper ,and a scarf or two was had o nthe way home for good measure,how many of you fat oaps in replica shirts could do that ?

  46. Henry Root

    Sep 20, 2013, 13:27 #39537

    While I think it is for others to pronounce their blogs classic you point out a very real dilemma for Gooners. The club is split but any club where the manager has been in place for 17 years is bound to be conflicted. I am a fan of Dein who deserves huge credit for the ramping up of ambition at Arsenal in the eighties,where George Graham made us successful again. Left to PHW we would have meandered along without direction or huge ambition. At the moment no-one is quite sure whether Ozil was the dawn of a new era or a swallow that doesn't make a summer. I'm in the former camp and hope Wenger (who can frustrate the hell out of me at times)can cement his legacy as one of huge and sustained success interrupted by eight years where we revised the structure of the club. But that's not a given,although this season is panning out positively so far. I just wonder why on earth we couldn't sign a striker!

  47. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Sep 20, 2013, 13:18 #39536

    Chris, I suppose if you misrepresent my argument through exaggeration in order to try and make out I've said anyone who doesn't want Wenger out now or feels at all favourable towards him is an Arsene not Arsenal fan then it does look a bit silly. But that's not what I said or even inferred. What I do say is there is a significant minority whose support is entirely bound up in Wenger being manager. For evidence, see the recent article on here where the author referred to GG winning 'you' trophies, or sites such as Untold Arsenal. For anyone who is not one of these people, I cannot imagine why me pointing that out would hit a nerve.

  48. BADARSE

    Sep 20, 2013, 12:54 #39534

    The Reds are making a come back! Don't panic, it's only the red squirrels who's numbers have increased...ah yes but can they sustain it? I for one will wait and see, it's been good weather and Yah, boo,the people in charge have not managed to win anything, we should get a new man in charge, long live the grey squirrels!

  49. John Gooner

    Sep 20, 2013, 12:52 #39533

    Rocky, I agree with a lot of what you say. I do not think that any fans have to prove their club loyalty to anyone. Fans need to have conviction in their loyalty and not fear that they will be belittled by those who claim they are more of a fan. I try not to differentiate between the man (or woman) who follows the team everywhere and the man who catches the occasional game from his armchair. Everyone supports in their own way and should be thought no less of for it. I personally have quite the opposite reaction when we lose - rather than hide away - wherever I am in the country (if not at the match) I get my Arsenal shirt on and walk with pride. At least we are all unified in sentiment when we lose; the confliction only becomes apparent when the team is winning - Some are happy, some are telling themselves that they shouldn't be.

  50. Gaz

    Sep 20, 2013, 12:43 #39532

    Good article mate. Agree with a lot of it especially the part where you suggest its far easier to simply 'toe the party line' than it is to speak out and criticise. Personally I've spent many years being critical of AW and the Club and I can honestly say I haven't enjoyed one minute of it. Grew up wanting nothing else than the side to win yet lately thats been secondary to wanting Wenger and Kroenke out. Tbh I guess I still want Wenger out but after the Ozil signing I'm willing to back him and the side again without the confusion-for now at least-of feeling as negative as I was. Guess thats simply down to AW and the Club finally doing one of the main things I've been calling for by properly investing in the side with a truly world class player. I also feel the signing was partly in response to those like me who've been critical so I feel I should at least repay that by cutting them some slack. Obviously it wasn't all we needed last summer and I still believe theres problems but for me its a start and I was simply desperate for any excuse to make me enjoy the whole experience of supporting Arsenal. And if it all goes well I expect AW will sign a new deal and if it goes badly I expect him to leave so in that respect its a 'win win' situation for me now.

  51. Westlower

    Sep 20, 2013, 12:37 #39531

    Well said Chris Dee. Nothing annoys me more than ex-players who've had their ego's bruised by AW,& celebs(Poulter, Piers Morgan,etc) who slag off manager/players when results don't go our way. Sadly many Gooners are influenced by the drivel they spout. Those ex-players who work in the media are paid to be controversial and their remarks should be taken with a pinch of salt. Ramsey would no longer be at AFC if these clowns had their way. Listen to them munching on humble pie this weekend when previewing our game. Learn to handle your anxiety fellow Gooners because we WILL lose again! Stoke can be guaranteed to park the bus on Sunday so keep your cool should the goals not flow. Please no booing at half time as support is better than abuse to encourage the players to perform well!

  52. DANNYJW

    Sep 20, 2013, 12:34 #39530

    David Dein is a shady businessman to say the least. He made millions out of Arsenal selling his shares and so did his agent son while negoiating the sale of many of our star players. It annoys me that so many fans talk about him as our saviour. When did he ever lash one in from thirty yards???

  53. Chris

    Sep 20, 2013, 12:17 #39529

    SGRB - "I imagine that goes for most of us, excepting the significant minority who support Wenger first and foremost." I can't help finding this hypocritical, in the light of your criticisms of folk who tell anti-Wenger people to "eff off down the Lane." Anyway, who are these people you refer to? I very much doubt they exist. Not wishing to see Wenger replaced immediately is not the same as supporting him over the club, no matter how you try to spin it. For my self, I can say I'd welcome a new manager who would actually come to Arsenal, if I thought he'd do a better job. If I had a crystal ball and could see the new manager would only achieve what Wenger would if he stayed, I personally would choose to stick with Wenger, for all sorts of reasons. I know many others would choose the opposite and I suspect there are those who would choose a new manager even if they somehow knew he would perform worse than Wenger, such is their dislike for the man. But labelling folk "supporters of Arsene FC" is a cheap shot, and a bit silly, in my opinion.

  54. BADARSE

    Sep 20, 2013, 12:10 #39528

    Thanks for the article Rocky, well written, perceptive, full of information and a conclusion. All fine, though not the path I will take, but thanks all the same. I will gain from it though, so thanks again. S.G.R.B, who are these Arsene supporters? It's corporate branding at work again, isn't it? Tony Evans and Ron, we reach crossroads every step of our lives. We miss most because we are having a rave; generally it's only at quieter, or more sombre moments that we stop, take a look around, and reject! I am that type who has often done this, more as the years pass. I am philosophical, (sorry JAMIE), and usually see links to trends in life, society or whatever drives society. We live in an ever-increasingly tacky, superficial and nasty world. AFC cannot, will not, divorce itself from the spiders' web of deceit and commercialism, this is obvious. Just try to chill fellas. It is the only way. Enjoy your memories, because Arsenal will never be the Arsenal we signed up to, all those years ago. We all get the government, the society, the football club we deserve. Good Old Arsenal! chris dee, as we are all on this big bus called Arsenal, bumping along, I find it nice to know people like you are aboard.

  55. chris dee

    Sep 20, 2013, 10:59 #39526

    Wow a bit heavy reading me old mucker. Being conflicted is not a disease exclusive to Gooners.It applies to every fan in every club in every country in the world.It's what fans do,it's what makes football so interesting and plays such a big part of our lives. Even if we had won a couple of trophies in the last eight years some fans would still gripe about what they see as being wrong with the club. Witness yourself ,who 'first wondered' about Arsene Wenger in 1998 because although he won a Premiership and F A Cup double he didn't put on Ian Wright for a couple of minutes!Wow!You must have been the only one at the time to have 'wondered about Arsene Wenger'.You must be so clever! Mind you Ian,who we never won a League title with,has not forgotten and competes with Stuart Robson to see who can slag of Wenger the most.

  56. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Sep 20, 2013, 10:50 #39525

    For me, it's quite simple. I support Arsenal Football Club the institution. Were the board, the manager and all the players to leave tomorrow and be replaced by a entirely new set of people, I would still support Arsenal. I imagine that goes for most of us, excepting the significant minority who support Wenger first and foremost. Those currently wearing the shirt and sitting in the dug out and boardroom are temporary custodians who we hope will do what's best for the club. If we feel they are not, it's entirely legitimate - indeed imperative - to criticise and point this out, and push for change. This is the strongest, most enduring form of support for Arsenal - support for the institution. Unconditional support for those who currently hold power or are employed at the club is borne of a misunderstanding of the original notion of supporting a club.

  57. Tony Evans

    Sep 20, 2013, 10:45 #39524

    Ron - you and me are at a similar crossroads with football in general. Big part of my life up until a few years ago but now sick and tired of the very same things that you have mentioned. If it wasn't for the fact that Arsenal are ingrained in to me I would have walked away by now.

  58. Grumpy Man

    Sep 20, 2013, 10:11 #39522

    It's always frustrating when we are being critical of the club and then the team goes on a winning streak. Does it mean that the criticism was wrong? No, but when we are winning no one wants to hear it. The biggest problem that we, and all other clubs have, is that nobody on the board is there on merit. They either buy into it, or are born into it. So we can't ever expect intelligent and logical decisions from any of them. David Dein was keen, but they got rid of him. Personally, I'm fed up reading about the people with suits. In all my years supporting Arsenal I've never seen one score a goal.

  59. Ron

    Sep 20, 2013, 10:04 #39521

    Im with Tony. Generally am, it has to be said. I accept there is a case to say that in modern footballing terms, its a grand achievement what AW has done this last 8 years ie keeping us top 4. Lots of srgments too, to say it could have been flavoured with at least 2 trophy wins as well, but thats all academic. Im not at all conflicted though. I happen to think the transition from Highbury to the Grove and all that its brought with it, the Boardroom upheaval and the change of approach cash wise vis emergence of Chelsea and Man City has taken a great big chunk of energy out of Wenger and also the existing Board in fairness. Theyve reached a certain plateau now and i dont think they or Wenger can 'up their game' and boost their mojo to take us a few steps further. Theyre tired basically. Its simply what happens in large corporations and thats what Arsenal are now. Theyre no longer a football Club, none of them are.Business has superceded football sadly. Theyre a pure business and the whole control of it needs a clear out and fresh impetus imported to it. Its no detriment to the Board or Wenger to say this, but those who criticise us who adopt this view are deemed poor supporters who should 'go and support Man C' etc etc. Its a barb thrown our way by those who lack the necessary wit, understanding or basic intelligence (and who actually fear change) to separate criticism from support of our great Club. If im conflicted at all, its because im at the crossroads of dumping football all together from my life. The money, the hype, the decline in standards on the pitch, the celebrity culture that permeates the 'sport' and the Sky/Media fueled hatred that now so separates fans of each Club from each other is caustic and leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Yet, i still love Arsenal and still go to a few games as i have for over 40 years! Its not just a lack of trophies that informs my dissatisfaction with Arsenal (ive lived with that many times since 1964), its all of the above and the fact that the Club (all Clubs) now take the pee from the fans big time.

  60. Klaus Stein

    Sep 20, 2013, 9:52 #39520

    I can only agree with @Smith, @Mesut and @Black. The article is basically asking for insult, the constant mongering and complaining about Arsenals leadership and board is outright sickening - or BS as it was put already. Are you paid by DD ?

  61. CanadaGooner

    Sep 20, 2013, 9:49 #39519

    Rocky, good article and sone interesting observations for sure. I agree with a great deal of your sentiments, especially the ones regarding how arrogance is a great thing, when you're winning, but it turns into a right drag, when you're not. I do however disagree with your comments about David Dein: most of these folks are in for a penny or two, and their judgement gets clouded every now and again. We got set on this Usmanov path, that ended up with Kroenke primarily because people like Dein, who knew fully well that only rich Arabs or Russians invest mindlessly, not dodgy americans (as we've seen with liverpool and even man utd), but still led us down that path anyway. I like to say less about the club finances, as it really has nothing to do with the arrogance/stubbornness that has led us to the 8 trophyless seasons: the money spent on wages for players like squillaci, silvestre, santos and so many other such players, could have got us an Ozil-like signing at least every other season, and Fabregas and others would have stayed and we would have been just fine. But, we are where we are, and hopefully this season fetches something

  62. Unchives

    Sep 20, 2013, 9:42 #39517

    I gave up my two Gold season tickets three seasons ago, but have been offered others since and have declined them. I want and wanted Arsene Wenger to be successful, however his tactical & transfer decisions were woeful over several years, although I now see a change of tact and a willingness to pay a huge transfer fee demanded by the market and not based on Wengers valuation……It took him long enough! There has not been a viable alternative to Wenger, indeed my heart sank when Pep Gardiola signed up for Bayern Munich, who had just won a Treble. How he proposes to take the club forward from here now, only he knows. Bayern of course has a similar self-sustaining financial model as Arsenal, except they deliver an end product and don’t charge their fans the earth. This is Arsene Wengers Last season to deliver, he has the money, no excuses left and he is fast approaching retirement age. We will also know at the end of this season whether Ferguson was Man Utd……Murinho is still the special one……..Pep Gaurdiola made Barcelona and Wenger has shaped up or shipping out! TIME TO DELIVER………..NO EXCUSES!

  63. Black Hei

    Sep 20, 2013, 9:09 #39515

    BS Rocky. In your last article, you called for Wenger to be sacked, owners to be sacked and the Russian to be installed so early into the new season. So it is 100 karat BS from you to now turn the other cheek and say, "support the club". I am very sure sacking Wenger now will lead to a downward spiral for the rest of the season. Secondly you now write, toned down, with the sole objective of getting people onto your side. BS, stay who you are, if you want to be antagonistic like your opposites over at Untold, stick to it and do not apologise. Thirdly, you straw man everyone who disagrees with you. If we disagree with you, it must be because we are stupid blind cattle that sees no wrong in Wenger. Dude, you are the one who is blind because you only see what is wrong. If Wenger is so pathetic as you describe, we would have been in the championships years ago. Also, if he is that stupid, well, there are at least 16 other idiots on the EPL roster every year. Maybe after blogging and imagining how teams should line up, you think you know how to put out a team better than those guys who have managed at the EPL level. Lastly, you are the ones that moaned how useless it is to get wins to qualify for CL etc etc. So if you are not interesting in winning, don't join in with the celebrations. Nobody is interested in celebrating with you. Stand in a corner and pretend you are happy. Because you are NOT. The more Arsenal wins, the higher the chance of a new contract. So you should be doing the opposite. You should be lamenting every win like it is the end of the world.

  64. John W

    Sep 20, 2013, 9:08 #39514

    Great post! Thanks for an informative and such well articulated perspective. I've only been a devoted Gooner since 08/09 and have always felt I lack the level of perspective needed to judge the things going on at the moment properly. But I can say that the amount of 'arsebloggers' who have expressed deep frustration and concern is now - from what I have seen, especially this transfer window - practically overwhelming. I find it funny how the self-branded 'true patriots' of Arsenal only seem to gain their condescending, sneering voices when we are on a winning streak, and seem to offer very little when we are doing badly. Our squad is so thin this season I feel as if it could only take one injury i.e. Giroud for things to go a bit pear shaped, and then we can observe the argumentative power of these 'true fans' if this happens. True patriotism for the club is being able to question the authority of it, not just to bow down to it as some holy, infallible deity; that's complete idiocy. I want to believe that it was at least fractionally the pressure of the really upset fans which caused them to pursue Ozil so vehemently in the end; and this to me illustrates the power of those who can stand up and voice their grievances, put pressure on the board and actually change things.

  65. Mezut

    Sep 20, 2013, 9:07 #39513

    I just wasted 10 minutes wading through that. What is the point of this article? Arsene Wenger has completely changed the cultural identity of the club in 15 years. I cannot expect the same fan who was a die hard Gooner under George Graham, to subscribe to the eccentricities of Arsene Wenger. It is a heaven and earth difference. But fans cannot choose to support another club. They are Gooners till they die. But they cannot understand what has happened to the club they once supported. So, they revolt internally, spreading their negativity to everyone. Atleast, have the decency to admit that, instead of coming up with logical circles, which make no sense, like the post above.

  66. Esso

    Sep 20, 2013, 9:04 #39512

    Never been conflicted in my life. Followed Arsenal since 1969. And that's it.

  67. Tony Evans

    Sep 20, 2013, 8:40 #39511

    Great article. So many fans don't seem to understand that although support of the team is unconditional that doesn't mean you have to worship the manager and the board too. Wenger's teams have been way too lightweight for my taste since the last of the 'old guard' were either sold or retired, and for an older Gooner like me it all feels very un-Arsenal like now. Wenger's vision of non contact football where teams are allowed to knock the ball around at will is cloud cuckoo land and a soft 'underbelly' will always be his and the teams undoing. Just because I don't think Wenger gets the balance of the team right; with the right mixture of grit, experience and flair (always too much flair and not enough of the others)doesn't make me a lesser fan than those that still worship the ground Wenger walks on. Like you, Rocky, I don't have to justify my views after nearly 45 years of support.

  68. Mr smith

    Sep 20, 2013, 8:29 #39510

    As Is your attitude to vengers trophy record you are only as loyal as your last blog the constant complaining and moaning undermines the team. Let me explain something to you the fact that wenger has kept us in the top four for 8 years while building a stadium that allows us to compete is an absolute miracle. This should be seen as so and not constantly complained about and criticised now he has some money to spend and has gone about rebuilding the team if people get behind him he will win silverware and I think possible even the leage in the next season. So please stop moaning and get behind the team you are suppose to support.