Sign-in with your Online Gooner forum login to add your comment. If you do not have a login register here.

1. Amos

   Oct 04, 2013, 23:33 #40237

   You need only reread the posts SGRB to see that isn't what I said at all. Also it isn't not investing I agree with it is not chasing rainbows. There's a big difference between investing and just spending money. In terms of investing in player budgets we have the fourth highest investment in the PL. The only clubs to spend more are those with greater resources available to them. In practical terms there was very little we could have done to prevent Cesc, RvP or Nasri (not that Nasri was really a key player) leaving as all were in unprotected periods of their contract. ManU were unable to prevent Ronaldo leaving for much the same reason and Rooney would have gone this summer if he'd been in the same contract position as Cesc, RvP and Nasri were. You can find the same situation occurring at any other club using self generated resources too.

2. Stroud Green Road Boy

   Oct 04, 2013, 19:27 #40234

   Amos, others may think that the selling of Fabregas, Nasri, RVP and others had quite a bit of 'point' to it, but then you're the man who told us he wasn't bothered when we fell away when chasing the title, indeed think not investing at those optimal times was the right thing to do, so I'm not surprised you don't agree.

3. Amos

   Oct 04, 2013, 17:39 #40232

   Well then SGRB you in turn cannot object to revenues from player sales being put into their proper context by the relationship between the actual profits made and spending. That's where your red herring lacks balance in looking at player sales in isolation but as Chris points out even on a profits made basis your 'fact' has no real point to it.

4. Stroud Green Road Boy

   Oct 04, 2013, 17:22 #40231

   Yes, "in the 3 seasons since Kroenke took control we have spent more in gross terms on player transfers than in the previous 8 seasons combined" is a fact. But it's not a fact that exists in isolation. To simply give this fact without pointing out all the income from player transfers, namely from the selling of star players, is to give a misleading impression - and this is precisely what you originally did. I introduced this second fact to give 'balance', as Chris might put it. It's not a 'red herring' to do so - you just don't like that particular fact being pointed out.

5. Amos

   Oct 04, 2013, 16:22 #40230

   Transfer fees paid or received are treated as immediate costs or assets Chris irrespective of when they're actually paid. Transfer fees paid are counted as an increase in intangible assets and written down over the period of the contract. Transfer fees received are shown as a profit (or loss) on player trading when set against the discharge of contract liabilities and the residual value of the contract and then adjusted as a disposal of an intangible asset. Whether they are paid or not simply shows as a creditor (if we're owed money) or debtor (if we owe money) position and is really just a matter of cashflow - unless we don't get paid.

6. Amos

   Oct 04, 2013, 15:10 #40229

   Why exclude one year from Kroenke's term unless it's inconvenient SGRB? Are you suggesting we should have bought Ozil before he was available? My earlier point about player trading is a simple one, and still holds true, which is that in the 3 seasons since Kroenke took control we have spent more in gross terms on player transfers than in the previous 8 seasons combined. In fact we have spent less in this 3rd season, when buying Ozil, than we spent in either of the previous two. You introduced the red herring, which doesn't alter the fact in any way, that we have also received money for players sold. I've explained why you can't balance current revenues with future liabilities without first accounting for current liabilities in the expectation (but more hope I think now) that you can see what is really taking place. But if you have some prejudice against Kroenke you wish to hold onto then by all means do so.

7. Chris

   Oct 04, 2013, 15:01 #40228

   Amos - Yes fair point - I think we (SGRB & I) had a debate about this a while ago (if I'm understanding you correctly). Namely, that both transfer fees owed to and by the club would be staged and so couldn't be 'counted' as either immediate costs or assets.

8. Chris

   Oct 04, 2013, 14:43 #40227

   SGRB - Agreed, up to this summer, looking at player trading in isolation, we were definitely in profit before the Ozil purchase. Going backwards, looking at the previous 1 year, then previous 2 years combined, then previous 3 years combined etc we have the following cumulative net transfer profit figures (£m): 18, 11, 42, 46, 33, 50, 43, 38, 34, 31.

9. Amos

   Oct 04, 2013, 14:36 #40226

   Incidentally it also works on the headline spending Chris - if you can believe the newspaper figures for transfer fees - since Kroenke took over. The point is though that the fees received discharge liabilities incurred for previous spending and it's future revenues that will discharge current spending. That's why we can say with conviction that we are investing at a much higher level since Kroenke took control. That isn't a pro-Kroenke stance - it is the reality. If we look at the way commercial income is being driven then we should be reasonably confident that investment will continue at a positive level but we should expect it to be proportionate. Retaining the ability to invest means that the club has to continue to look for genuine value and maintain decent reserves.

10. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Oct 04, 2013, 14:30 #40224

    Chris, you've hit on it with the 'player trading in isolation', this is precisely what the original debate was about. Amos originally made an isolated player trading point, even further 'isolated' by looking only at expenditure on players to try and give the impression the last 3 years have been a time of great investment. So I made the point about the selling of star players. Amos then broadened it out into liabilities then you look at profits etc to get away from this specific point. You'll also note that I said I was talking about 'up until this summer'. It is the purchase of Ozil which means the club are no longer in net profit on player trading, even after discharging liabilities etc, etc.

11. Chris

    Oct 04, 2013, 14:11 #40220

    Yes, Amos is right - Kroenke took over in summer of 2011 and since then we have a net expenditure of about £14.5m (made an £18m profit 2011-12 and spent £32.5 since then). Over the previous 4 seasons (when Kroenke was 'here' but not in control), we made a net profit of £15m (using headline figures). In the 4 years prior to that, we had a net expenditure of £9m in total. So in the previous 8 seasons, we 'made' £6m. Can't argue with that. Amos - it was lack of appreciation of these figures that lead me to ask my last question, which in the circumstances didn't make sense as you didn't come up with a different conclusion to Swiss Ramble and weren't arguing what I had thought, but thanks for explaining anyway!

12. Amos

    Oct 04, 2013, 13:43 #40216

    I'm not sure if I follow your point completely Chris but it is easy to be misled by headline figures. Nor do I think Swiss Ramble has arrived at a conclusion that differs from anything I've said. Player trading is part of the income and expenditure calculation and will end up in the P&L account which is why I make the point that what you have to spend is the profit you make in each financial year and not what you might receive in player revenues. The outlay on player contracts (which is transfer fees paid including signing on fees, agents fees et c.,)are accounted for as intangible assets and written down over the period of the contract. If a contract is extended then additional contract fees such as signing and agents fees are added to the residual contract costs and amortised over the new period but won't appear in tabloid calculations. The point is that you don't have the revenues to spend you only have the net profits made. The headlines are misleading. If we buy say Gervinho for £12m and sell him 2 years later for £7m we don't have £7m to spend we have only potentially £1m of profit once the liabilities in his contract are discharged(though that may also be set against writedowns and impairments made on other contracts which have no residual value.) So headline figures for net spending don't calculate all associated fees and costs nor contract renewals.

13. Amos

    Oct 04, 2013, 13:23 #40214

    No sleight of hand at all SGRB. In this case it's simple arithmetic. We have spent more on player transfers since Kroenke took control than we have received for players sold. We have spent more in total over the 3 seasons since Kroenke took control than the combined total of spending for the previous 8 seasons. Whether you're guessing or not, and your guesswork hasn't proven to be too accurate so far, I don't have a pro-Kroenke agenda at all. The issue seems to be that you find these facts inconvenient for what appears to be your anti-Kroenke agenda.

14. Chris

    Oct 04, 2013, 12:42 #40213

    Amos - I'm intrigued here. Call me an accounting simpleton (it would be true) but I can't get my head round the idea that revenue from player sales can be much greater than money spent on players - and yet there has been great net investment in the squad. I appreciate that, in reality, money generated from player sales isn't ring-fenced and so isn't necessarily 'pure profit' in the club accounting sense but, if we take player trading in isolation, why is it not reasonable to calculate incomings and outgoings and arrive at a net expenditure, in the manner that respected football financial experts such as Swiss Ramble routinely do and come up with a very different conclusion to yours?

15. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Oct 04, 2013, 11:29 #40210

    So I'm wrong in thinking AFC made profits in every transfer window until the one just passed, am I, Amos. You're using some sleight of hand b*ll**** to arrive at a conclusion that suits your pro-Kroenke agenda - an agenda you have for reasons known only to yourself but others can guess at. Enough's enough with this.

16. Amos

    Oct 04, 2013, 11:06 #40208

    Just not true SGRB. You've bamboozled yourself and your simple fact is factually incorrect. We have spent significantly more than we've received from player sales since Kroenke took over. Not that we didn't sell players before Kroenke took control of the club; Anelka, Overmars, Vieira, Henry, Adebayor, Toure et al. But you haven't dressed it up correctly if you're claiming we haven't spent more on transfers than we've received in player sales over the last 3 seasons. No semantics there I'm afraid - just another negative myth punctured.

17. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Oct 04, 2013, 10:37 #40205

    You're using semantics to try and bamboozle, Amos. Call it 'profits generated from player sales' then, that have greatly outweighed spending since Kroenke took over, even with the 'more in 3 seasons than past 8' you originally sought to solely highlight to try and give the impression it's been some great period of investment, when in fact it's been a period of consistently selling star players. The simple fact remains a lot more has come into the club through player sales than has been spent on purchasing players during this 3 year period you speak of, no matter how you try and dress it up.

18. Amos

    Oct 04, 2013, 0:07 #40193

    Profits are relevant SGRB. It's pretty basic stuff really. You can only spend what you make. Revenues go to discharging liabilities which only then produces the profit that you are then able to spend. No matter how you dress it up though the fact remains that in the last 3 seasons so far, since Kroenke took control, we have spent more than we have spent in the previous 8 seasons combined. I appreciate that's an uncomfortable and inconvenient fact for those that wish to paint a different picture but it's the reality nonetheless.

19. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Oct 03, 2013, 23:09 #40191

    So player revenues aren't relevant, Amos, but spending on players is. There is no correlation between the two, you say. How marvellously convenient for someone seeking to defend our absentee owner, who brought in far more than he spent on players up to this summer and made massive profits on the PTA. How fortunate that that's how accounting 'works'.

20. Amos

    Oct 03, 2013, 22:19 #40185

    My pleasure Green Hut. Though I'm not convinced you see the point it's good that you are at least looking the right way. A title winning CB just wasn't genuinely available.

21. Green Hut

    Oct 03, 2013, 21:21 #40180

    Amos- Yes exactly, we also had Thomas Vermaelen, out since September with an achilles injury and not to play again till May. And Sebastian Squillaci. Thanks for pointing me in that direction, you're doing my job for me now.

22. Amos

    Oct 03, 2013, 20:32 #40174

    We only dropped two pints in January 2011 so I'm not sure what difference would have been made by having another reserve CB. At least we had two fit central defenders then. ManU found themselves having to play Carrick and Fletcher as a centre back pairing at one time. Was that due to a lack of investment on their part? In any event we had 4 designated CB's in the squad that season and Song who would fill in when needed but whether we needed another CB or not there was no guarantee that one, better than we had already, was available.

23. Green Hut

    Oct 03, 2013, 19:45 #40168

    In January 2011 we were 2 points off the top with Koscielny and Djourou our only fit central defenders. Anyone who doesn't believe that this was an investible situation has no business either supporting or managing The Arsenal.

24. Amos

    Oct 03, 2013, 18:22 #40163

    We've had player income all the time SGRB. You've exposed nothing other than your inability to understand player trading. You can even make a profit on player trading selling a player for less than you paid for him. Buy a player for £20m on a 4 year contract for example and sell him for £10m in year three and you'll show a profit of £5m. Player revenues aren't relevant - they are just the realisation of intangible assets - the profit you make in each financial year is relevant. Just as relevant is the fact that we have spent more in the last 3 seasons so far than in the previous 8 seasons combined. A direct comparison. What could be more pertinent than that? You are delusional if you think a few tens of millions more on player transfers in one or two years compared to the 100s of millions City and Chelsea have spent over the same period would have increased our chances of competing for the title - or even finishing higher than 3rd or 4th. We already had the 4th highest player budgets in the PL. If we'd spent our entire cash reserves we would still have only had the 4th highest player budgets over that period. It wouldn't have changed anything of significance but it certainly doesn't mean the club didn't try. They were just more realistic about what it would achieve.

25. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Oct 03, 2013, 17:06 #40160

    It's really quite simple, Amos. You pointed out transfer outlays without mentioning transfer income, in an attempt to portray the Kroenke era as a 'golden age' of player investment at AFC. You were deliberately only pointing out half of what happened. You're now trying to broaden the issue beyond your original point, as I've exposed what you were doing. The rest of the argument is also quite simple - Green Hut and CanadaGooner gave the very specific examples of seasons where with a bit more investment AFC may - may - have competed until the end of the season for the title. The gist of your response is it was right not to have tried to compete then as it would have meant we could not have tried to compete now and in the future - it's convoluted, apologetic and defeatist. The above argument can be made whilst recognising there are 3 other clubs with greater resources - no one would have expected us to consistently outperform them over the past 8 years, simply to have made the most of the chances that did arise.

26. Amos

    Oct 03, 2013, 16:34 #40157

    How is what we've really spent in the last 3 years irrelevant SGRB? The income from player trading only appears as year end profits. It's those profits you have to spend not revenues from sales. Those revenues are ultimately affected by the obligations and liabilities the club incurs on player contracts which are amortised over the period of the contract. Player revenues are irrelevant, profits and the management of forward profits and liabilities are not. What could our performances over the last few years be seen as other than the very epitome of competing consistently? That we have not been able to compete more successfully than Chelsea, City and ManU is evident enough - and also obvious enough. Your idea that somehow spending more on a defender or two in one or two seasons would have enabled us to have been able to compete more successfully against those clubs is wonderfully naive. It's not my putting a positive spin on the actions of the last few years that's at fault here - it's your own inability to see what has really happened in football over the last 10 years or so - and is happening now - that you're struggling with.

27. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Oct 03, 2013, 15:23 #40147

    "As it happens though we've invested more in transfers over the last 3 seasons so far than we have in the previous 8 seasons combined." As I pointed out in a post just a couple of days ago, you conveniently leave out the income from 'transfers out' of star players in that period, so perhaps you could stop banging that particular one eyed drum now. You've 'pointed out' nothing, you've given a subjective opinion in your 'distinction', which I and others reject out of hand. And it is your definition of 'competing consistently' as 'ambitious' that I'm referring as 'going for 3rd and 4th', for that's exactly what it means as that's exactly what's been happening up to now. This whole 'it is better not to have gone for trophies then as it means we're better able to in the future' argument of yours is spurious nonsense of the most apologetic, defeatist kind. It's ridiculous to suggest that e.g. had Wenger bought a decent defender in Jan '10 or '11 - again to give us the best possible chance, not definitely win the title - we wouldn't be able to invest as much now so it's better to have never tried then, it's just a non-starter as an argument, a weak variant on 'jam tomorrow'. This is a waste of time really as you've made it quite clear - as evidenced in your 'it didn't bother me overly' comment - that your primary interest is in putting the best possible spin on all the historical actions or inactions of the incumbent manager and board, no matter how much hindsight has shown them to be the incorrect ones, not what's best for AFC.

28. Amos

    Oct 03, 2013, 14:28 #40144

    I haven't redefined ambition at all SGRB. I've simply pointed out the distinction between acts of ambition and acts of desperation. It's you that has sought to redefine ambition as simply going for 3rd or 4th place. Nobody aims for 3rd or 4th unless 1st or 2nd proves unattainable. Any additional resources we had employed in the periods you refer to would, by definition, mean that we have less resources now. As it happens though we've invested more in transfers over the last 3 seasons so far than we have in the previous 8 seasons combined. The good thing is that we have the resources to continue doing so at a similar rate because we didn't spunk too much of it chasing the improbable. If you really imagine that we could have invested enough over the last 8 years to usurp Abramovivh, Mansour and the revenues of the ManU machine then you're just chasing rainbows.

29. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Oct 03, 2013, 13:45 #40141

    'Ambition' has been redefined by Amos as targeting 3rd or 4th every year. Adding to the squad when in the mix for the title to give yourself the best possible chance of sustaining that title bid has been redefined as 'desperation' and 'chasing rainbows'. Amos, it would not have prevented AFC from competing now to have added as required in the Januarys of those years we were in the mix, however you try to spin it.

30. Amos

    Oct 03, 2013, 7:12 #40113

    Green Hut - It probably has been impossible for anyone other than ManU, Chelsea or City to win the title in the last 8 years. It has certainly been improbable. It may become more possible for us to win it over the coming seasons as our financial strength improves and that of others is inhibited by changes to the rules. Chasing rainbows is the opposite of showing ambition. Ambition is shown when you retain the ability to compete consistently and the capacity to add to that ability to compete on a sustained basis. A single dash for glory is an act of desperation not ambition.

31. Green Hut

    Oct 03, 2013, 0:21 #40110

    Amos- I thought the definition of chasing rainbows is trying to achieve the impossible, but maybe I'm wrong as the title certainly didn't seem like an impossible dream in January 2010 or 2011. Maybe strengthening the defensive side of the team wouldn't have made any difference, but it would have been nice to find out if the manager had shown the required ambition, wouldn't it? And if it honestly doesn't bother you, then there's nothing more to say.

32. Amos

    Oct 02, 2013, 23:48 #40109

    The resources were there to spend the money Green Hut but that doesn't say that the opportunity to spend it on anything that would have improved the the team enough to make a real difference was there. The conclusion that if we'd simply bought another player or two we would have won the league is a rainbow that Liverpool and Spuds and others have been chasing. City have bought loads of players over the last 5 years or so but only won the title once. But you're right it doesn't bother me over much. I'd rather retain the capacity to compete on an enduring basis than chase rainbows. It's what gives us the best chance of success ultimately.

33. Green Hut

    Oct 02, 2013, 23:13 #40108

    Amos- We weren't chasing rainbows in the Januarys of 2010 and 2011. We were in the title mix both seasons and fans were calling for the manager to strengthen various defensive positions. The money was there, the opportunity was there but (a 35 year old free Sol apart) Wenger didn't feel the need to spend a penny and the chances were lost. Perhaps parsimony, perhaps misjudgement or perhaps both, but it was unnecessary, depressing and sadly familiar. It obviously doesn't bother you but it does some of us.

34. Amos

    Oct 02, 2013, 21:59 #40106

    Dross was your choice of description maguiresbridge gooner. You used it in the first place. Some players aren't really dross - they simply don't fit in. Gervinho seems to have had a good start at Roma for example. On the other hand Song was bought by one of the best teams in Europe but has been dross at Barca but presumably they didn't see him as such when they paid £15m for him. Maybe our dross wasn't quite as much dross as you think. Given that we've finished 3rd in three of the last 6 seasons in which some teams seemed to have paid a lot more for their dross than we have for ours. Your question has been answered. You simply can't get your head around the answer.

35. maguiresbridge gooner

    Oct 02, 2013, 19:12 #40099

    Amos, surely when you describe a player/players as dross that's what they are, just as you've done with Arshavin and others, otherwise why use that word in the first place, maybe as far as your concerned they just needed more support, more compassion shown, more time, and they would have come good (no doubt that would have been the case if they were still on the books and OGL hadn't admitted defeat and got rid) the league is littered with all kinds of dross alright and i've been referring to the latest batch we've released this year and i've yet to hear of a team that was littered with as much dross that's not dross as us. How much profit was made from this latest clear out 10 14 15mil for the reserves, is that before or after you take into account what was wasted on their wages. But there was plenty in the reserves already to allow us to spend as has been already pointed out. And you still haven't answered my original one question but i'm not expecting you to do so.

36. Amos

    Oct 02, 2013, 17:10 #40090

    I'm not admitting anything of the sort simply using your preferred description maguiresbridge gooner - though as it happens the worst dross we've signed recently has been Arshavin - not that the reaction to his signing suggested it at the time. Now he was really costly dross. But there are all sorts of dross £36m for Andy Carroll maybe, £17m for David Bentley. The league is littered with dross. There's also dross like Adebayor who was £6m worth of dross when we signed him and £24m worth of dross when we sold him after which he was turned into £5m worth of dross. There are plenty of other examples. If as you suggest Wenger should be condemned for the dross he has bought he should be credited with making a profit from it which has contributed to the reserves that have allowed us to spend over the last 3 seasons, since Kroenke took over, as much as we have spent in the 8 previous seasons going back before the invincibles. We've wasted relatively little which is a substantial part of our strength now.

37. maguiresbridge gooner

    Oct 02, 2013, 16:50 #40089

    Amos, a reply in true AKB style, dross is part and parcel of every clubs squad but there's not many if any, that have had a full team of them. So wengers dross has cost a lot less than others dross that's a good one (at least you admit they were dross and they didn't need more time)what about the over inflated wages they were paid not much value there with a hell of a lot of money frittered away which could have been put to better use. The reality is a team of second raters bought over the years and paid way over the top contracts in the hope they'd come good and never did and had to be flogged and there's no two ways about that. And your excuse making post didn't answer my one original question who deserves credit for all that?

38. maguiresbridge gooner

    Oct 02, 2013, 15:59 #40086

    Amos, so what your saying is the player Ramsey is today is down to the critism he got,and not a manager who kept throwing him in at the deep end to receive the critism, maybe the critics should have been louder with others.

39. Amos

    Oct 02, 2013, 15:30 #40083

    That's part and parcel of every club's squad maguiresbridge gooner. They all have their dross but on balance Wenger's dross has cost a lot less than many others. Either Wenger has been great at finding value and producing a profit from as someone else pointed out above or he has frittered money away on costly dross. You can't have it both ways. The reality is that much of the money we can invest now is because we haven't frittered it away chasing rainbows.

40. maguiresbridge gooner

    Oct 02, 2013, 14:51 #40081

    Amos, who deserves the credit for buying so much dross and standing by them and selecting them for so long, only for eventually have to flog them all? and we still have a couple stinking the place out and one of them still playing because he's on such a high contract we couldn't get rid. No doubt when he scores a couple of goals he'll be world class and the arsene supporters will tell us OGL was right all along to stick by him.

41. Amos

    Oct 02, 2013, 14:48 #40080

    The only claims being made about Ramsey here maguiresbridge gooner is that we can apparently attribute his performances to the criticism of those that were ready to write him off and not to those that had the belief and patience to nurture and develop the talent of a player barely into his twenties.

42. theopants superstar

    Oct 02, 2013, 14:37 #40079

    Not sure about comparing the cases of Ramsey and Diaby. The former had one serious injury which mended physically but has taken time to get over psychologically. The latter had a serious injury which has had such an impact on him physically that it has resulted in him have pleny of other related set-backs subsequently. The question is whether Diaby will ever be able play enough games to get to the level he was once at. People are right to debate whether due to the accumilation of injuries and the subsequent long layoffs, the Frenchman is likely to ever be on the field enough to fulfill his obvious potential and if it might be better for the club to bring someone else in as a replacement.

43. maguiresbridge gooner

    Oct 02, 2013, 14:31 #40077

    BADARSE, basically what i was asking was that with so many on here now claiming they stuck by Ramsey and never doubted him and didn't critise him, and others were wrong to dare to do so, and didn't show enough compassion, and weren't real supporters because they didn't, and now taking great delight in telling us all about it, and if it hadn't happened for another two or three years we'd have the same people telling us the same, if you wait long enough you'll get something right, i'm merely asking would all those supporters like to give us their opinion on diaby now (but i'm sure you knew that anyway), instead of waiting another one two three years until it happens to tell us all, we told you so. Clairvoyants 0 patients and hope fulls 1? Surely you mean clairvoyants 0 AKB's 1

44. BADARSE

    Oct 02, 2013, 12:37 #40050

    Maguiresbridge Gooner, that would be a strong point to make if anyone had said that they knew Aaron Ramsey would overcome his injury and become world class. Sadly, I can't find a post claiming that anywhere. Clairvoyants 0 Patient and Hopefuls 1.

45. maguiresbridge gooner

    Oct 02, 2013, 12:31 #40047

    Maybe the clairvoyants who knew Ramsey was going to get over his injury and become world class would like to tell us Diaby is going to do the same, then they can be the original i told you so, or would they rather wait until it actually happens.

46. BADARSE

    Oct 02, 2013, 9:48 #40025

    @Amos. Well said fella. My sentiments exactly.

47. Amos

    Oct 02, 2013, 9:42 #40024

    It's laughable to think that Ramsey's detractors, or those of the club itself for that matter, can now seek to club credit for inspiring Ramsey to his present level of performance by the strength of their ill informed criticism. King Canute probably convinced himself that the tide eventually turned simply because he ordered it too. If there is any credit to be given other than to Ramsey (or any other player or club official) for his present performances, it should be given to those who stood by him and continued to select and develop him in the face of constant criticism - not those who didn't.

48. Mike

    Oct 02, 2013, 9:10 #40023

    Signings over the last two years, Ozil, Flamini, Sanogo, Monreal, Cazorla, Giroud, Padolski, Einsfeld, Ox, Mertersaker, Arteta, Santos, Gervinho, Jenkinson, plus tying down Ramsey, Wilshire and Walcott - out of that lot, one was an absolute failure, one had potential but never quite got there but is currently scoring in the Italian league - the rest as far as I concerned are good business - very little dros amongst them.

49. Rocky RIP

    Oct 02, 2013, 8:00 #40022

    @DWThomas - I agree about Diaby. There's a very gifted player in there screaming to get out, but we've never properly seen it as he's so rarely fit for a sustained period. He was superb at Anfield like you say. He was running that midfield. Then limped off. Again. It's tragic and people are right to question the wisdom of sticking with him if he's never going to be fit. Back to last night, absolutely fantastic performance. It rolled back the years. Our passing and movement was outstanding. Especially good hearing 'we're the north bank/clock end' booming again. Let's keep this up Arsenal.

50. BADARSE

    Oct 02, 2013, 7:49 #40021

    @DW Thomas. Just wanted to throw my weight behind your praises of Diaby Apart from the obvious litany of injuries, a couple at least career-threatening, some players just cannot translate their natural skill and ability into a productive end result over a sustained period. It just happens, and ultimately that may prove to be the case with this young man, if he ever does make it back. One thing is certain, he is undeniably gifted. Anyone seeing him years ago and having a remit to search for, find, and evaluate a players potential, would have snapped him up. If not then in my eyes they wouldn't recognise a footballer if one fell on them. Yes his game at Anfield last season was a consummate individual performance. Hope he makes it back, then perhaps a real assessment could be applied.

51. Westlower

    Oct 02, 2013, 7:45 #40020

    The atmosphere was the best yet at the Emirates, reminiscent of Highbury on a good night. The players do respond when the crowd is with them. Well done to everyone for putting their personal grievances to one side and getting behind the team. Ramsey CAN play in the wide positions when he's on song!

52. Ali

    Oct 02, 2013, 7:41 #40019

    I always had respect and sympathy for Ramsey because of his injury and didn't really expect a lot from him since he recovered from the injury and gained fitness. He had some very weak performances last season but now he is worth his place in the team. Bravo

53. DW Thomas

    Oct 02, 2013, 2:05 #40018

    Perhaps because he is British, many of you seem to forget how poorly Ramsey played at times. Make all the excuses you want, he was looking like the new Denilson at times. Yet, one thing always stood out for me. His attitude and work ethic were always top notch. Compared to Walcott, he is miles away in the effort he gives. Now his skill has equaled that effort and he is the best in Europe right now. Yet, I can't help think some of the same people who now support Rambo and say they always have are the same ones who slag off Diaby. Diaby on his day is one of the best midfielder's in the league and a first choice for France. He has suffered so many setbacks its difficult to remember them all. So, if you support Aaron, don't forget Diaby. Last season against Liverpool he owned the game. Anyway, just watch the hypocrisy when it comes to our players. If Diaby returns and fulfills his potential we would have he best midfield in the world, no doubt. And don't forget Jack either who I think will be the next top CM in the world for years to come.

54. WHL 87

    Oct 02, 2013, 1:17 #40017

    Don't ever forget the sickening injury the boy suffered when he was looking so promising. Went tonight - first time for a while - fantastic first half performance. best I've seen for a long time. Rambo thoroughly deserved the standing ovation he received. Loved the we are the North Bank / East Stand / Clockend chorus. There's 60,00 of us now. Not 38. Get behind the team and stop ****ing moaning. We are The Arsenal and we're on the march........

55. CanadaGooner

    Oct 01, 2013, 23:07 #40016

    @ John Gooner - thanks for the kind words. Always good to see people like you who come on here to provide an opinion (and even when you disagree with an article, you simply state your points; as opposed to the weird people who come on here just to lash out and they usually offer very little in terms of an opinion) Excellent win tonight! Come on you Gooners!!! (we'll wait for Wenger's apology one of these days, for not ditching his stubbornness sooner) -

56. We're the North Bank Highbury

    Oct 01, 2013, 22:48 #40015

    Did I hear my name mentioned this evening?

57. BADARSE

    Oct 01, 2013, 22:42 #40014

    OK, am going off-piste with this one but I promised to keep giving a tally of Mesut's goals and assists. I stabbed at a figure of 15 each for the season, score so far stands at 1-5, so 14-10 anticipated. What a sterling performance by the boys tonight. In many ways I think the 2nd half approach was a good learning process for the defensive mentality of the team, and we all know that has needed developing. Good old Arsenal.

58. Alan Sugar- Wenger is the best manager in the Premier League

    Oct 01, 2013, 21:37 #40013

    Will the last WOB please turn out the lights

59. Westlower

    Oct 01, 2013, 18:50 #40012

    Financially it's impossible to have a squad full of World class or International players . No club has a budget to accommodate such a dream but the majority of our present squad are Internationals. When we won the European Cup Winners Cup in 94 our squad contained 'ordinary players' or 'dross' as they seem to be termed these days. Who remembers Dickov, Heaney, Flatts, Selley, Hillier, Morrow, Miller, Linighan & McGoldrick. Who also remembers being at Highbury on 12th April 1994 when a Kevin Campbell goal was enough to beat PSG 1-0 in the 2nd leg semi of ECWC. The night was also memorable by the attendance of Bin Laden and his entourage among the 34,212 crowd.

60. Dixon Arsene Seaman

    Oct 01, 2013, 18:38 #40011

    Just as well yet another potentially positive article hasn't descended into a tiresome (and ultimately futile) point scoring exercise between the WOB and the AKBs. Oh.

61. Stevieo

    Oct 01, 2013, 18:17 #40010

    The AKB’s are showing just how pathetic they are on here. Canada held an opinion that Ramsey wouldn’t make it (based on his poor performances), and now everyone’s screaming about humble pie? What about those that never rated Bendtner either. Should they be served up a large slice of humble pie? Seeing as Wenger still persists with him in what must be his testimonial season, I guess he must be a success story? What about the dud Chamack? Were his critics wrong too? For all those that never rated Almunia too, our loss is the Championship’s gain. The Denilson critics should hold their heads in shame too. So the next time we sign an overweight useless Santos, no one should post on what is only a blog, that he sees a poor overpaid player? Wenger has persisted with some terrible players over the last 5 years, which has directly affected our chances of competing. Such players have since been offloaded and found there correct levels at teams like Palace and Watford. This was clear to anyone with eyes without wearing Wenger blinkers. How's about Arshavin. I thought he was world class and the best signing in years, so yes, serve me up a slice of pie too while we’re at it.

62. maguiresbridge gooner

    Oct 01, 2013, 17:29 #40009

    Red Mist, spot on , we've bought one world class player in eight years and one player has got over a bad injury and come alive and playing great (and deserves credit for it)and we've hit a bit of form, and suddenly we're world class (well we're not),and everyone's celebrating, lets wait until there's something to celebrate. And when that time comes no doubt everybody will be told, i knew we were going to win something all along, told you so.

63. Westlower

    Oct 01, 2013, 17:27 #40008

    Red Mist, PSG reportedly offered more for Ozil.

64. Greg71

    Oct 01, 2013, 16:38 #40007

    Reminds me of what happenend to paul davis who took stick (yes he played before wenger arrived ! ) for being slow and sideways,came back fitter and faster,like a new signing even ! Remember we are 6 games in with less points from the same opposition as last season,no trips to the town hall just yet !

65. CanadaGooner

    Oct 01, 2013, 16:31 #40006

    @ MarkH - I wont take offence (dont either; all in good jest) as your comments are usually quite reasonable. The reality is that Ramsey has been a revelation and hopefully it's not just a flash in the pan (and even if it is, I still say: hats off to the lad for the start to this season)

66. John Gooner

    Oct 01, 2013, 16:03 #40005

    It is a f'ing joke that people are dismissing the idea of being critical about Wenger as an abstract concept for a handful of loonies. Great start to the season and I will give the players AND WENGER plenty of credit for that. However, a start is exactly that, a start, and we've thrown away much better leads with only a handful of games to go before. The likelihood is that we will finish 4th with no trophies, much though I wish it wasn't. Will I be allowed to criticise Wenger then? I think CanadaGooner is one of the most honest and straight-talking contributors on the online Gooner and deserves our respect for it, whether we agree with his opinions or not. What is not an opinion and what is fact, is that Wenger has made a complete hash (in footballing terms) of the last 8 years and deserves criticism for it. Whether or not the club is a great success financially is another matter - And to give AW full credit for that would be doing a disservice to the many commercial managers and number bods the club no doubt employs.

67. Ron

    Oct 01, 2013, 15:55 #40004

    Westlower - You have your views and all is well with that mate, however youre a tad naive. Only a small element of what a club does is loyalty by Clubs to players, the main reason is that the players are insured up to the hilt. It costs Arsenal nothing to tolerate your Diaby type long term crocks. Moreover, the cotracts of players are choc full of clauses to allow a Club to get shot of players once the insurance cover runs dry. You really to need to stop thinking Arsenal are like the flaming Samaritans doing things for the good of the heart and the player, you really do. Believe me, they do nothing that doesnt suit their bank balance. Players are still pieces of meat, to chop up and chuck out when it suits Clubs. Have you never wondered why players sod off at the drop of a hat? Its because they know Clubs dont give a sh--t- about them when push comes to shove. Ramsey Diaby Rosicky and the other Wenger long term absentees hae benefitted from Arse s insurance. If it wasnt there they would have been sacked as being medically unfit to do their job just like an ordinary employee at Asda! Arsenal are no more desreving of a halo than any other Club.

68. Red Mist

    Oct 01, 2013, 15:18 #40003

    Westlower Ozil was pushed from Madrid I'm glad we have him.....but other options open to him? We wouldn't have got him if others were prepared to pay the money, just like all the other players we've missed out on. Or it could have been Diaby et al as you say.

69. Westlower

    Oct 01, 2013, 14:54 #40002

    If the club hadn't been loyal to long term injured players such as Wilshere, Rosicky, Sagna, Ramsey, Vermelen, Ox, Podolski and especially the class act that is Diaby, where would we be now? Look through the current Arsenal squad and you wont find any dross, as the anti's insist we perpetually buy. What attracted Ozil to the Emirates, playing with dross? I don't think so!!

70. jjetplane

    Oct 01, 2013, 14:42 #40001

    My my but the 'Arsenal' fans on here who always knew Ramsey was the best player in the world are so busy running down their percieved enemies within, they have no time to enjoy the perverse sensation that being top o the pile brings. Could it be that far from being oh so confident that the big corner has been turned, maybe Wenger's private army are not quite ready for wholesale endorsement yet. Like any gooner, being where we are at the moment is a buzz and a half and double funny cause it gives a neat gravitas to laughing at da spuds again. Ramsey on MOTD was stupendous in interview and if he sustains this incredible high then yeah - Bale is heading for obscurity. My general point is let's have a bit of fun when its good or bad and as a team that has not won, nay declined to win anything over the past eight years - lets smile that smuggy little smile. Even the silly old Prof looks a year younger so players and managers come and go but Perry Groves and Ray Parlour will live forever.

71. johnnyhawleyloovinggooner

    Oct 01, 2013, 14:41 #40000

    enough money to attract marquee players when the new ground was being built?really?cannot see were that was .that cash stach was/is for something no one could see would cost a fortune,lucky arsenal did not need it .the property market recovered in london and helped a lot.look at manu profit and loss accounts.do not just look at the top line. the cups have glossed over some serious debts that will surely come to a head soon.Oh and some of us did not doubt ramsey

72. Westlower

    Oct 01, 2013, 14:29 #39999

    Just as well we've got a decent set of midfield players because reading some of the Arsenal faithfuls judgement on our squad, we are desperately short of a GK, LB, CB's, HM & Strikers. God knows how we put a team together especially with all the lame ducks we give extended contracts to. Perhaps the club should employ the 'disillusioned dissenters' exceptional judgement at spotting World class talent as AFC has failed miserably so far in that department. I'm sure some of the arrogant deluded think they'd be a better manager than AW. A touch of humility is in order gentlemen!

73. Red Mist

    Oct 01, 2013, 14:15 #39998

    Blimey a few wins and everyone's world class....at least one trophy and at the very least competing for the title then we can judge. Anything less bye bye Mr Wenger.

74. GoonerRon

    Oct 01, 2013, 14:01 #39997

    @ Peter Wain - we need a decent LB? So by your comment I'm reading that you think Gibbs and Monreal are worse than decent. Surely you are joking?

75. maguiresbridge gooner

    Oct 01, 2013, 13:33 #39996

    Westlower, if we hung on and hung on and showed patience with our support for players like the dross that OGL signed over the years waiting for them to hit form and come good we would have a long wait and have a hell of a lot of dead wood about the place (sorry that was already the case)but thankfully OGL did admit defeat and got rid, if we followed your philosophy would still have them and the likes of the waiter in goal and giving him encouragement and getting behind the likes of santos as he blew and puffed all over the place. Yes i agree players need support and encouragement from the fans, especially after and injury like Ramsey's but as i asked earlier for how long, as long as it takes? i certainly wasn't suggesting we should have gotten rid of Ramsey after his injury merely asked how long do you give a player two ,three, four, five years if he hadn't have come good how much longer would we give him two,three,four,more years there comes a time when you just have to say sorry, thankfully that didn't happen in Ramsey's case,at the end of the day we're a football club and can't afford passengers,(we've had far to many of them over the years)how much longer will Diaby have to get before defeat is admitted? I'm one of the very few on here who have never had or seen the need to let every one know how long i've supported Arsenal and i'm not going to start now but i've always supported every player while wearing the shirt even if it was obvious they weren't up to it (and that's putting it mildly)and indeed showed compassion whenever it was needed,but with respect i certainly don't need or won't be taking any advise on how to do either from you.

76. Peter Wain

    Oct 01, 2013, 13:23 #39995

    Before we all get carried away we have only played 6 games in the PL and we lost one of those. Yes it has been a great start to the season -lets just see how it ends. We still have not improved the squad enough and need at least two strikers another centre half and a decent left back.

77. MarkH

    Oct 01, 2013, 13:05 #39994

    Sometimes Mr CanadaGooner, you really are a smug git

78. CanadaGooner

    Oct 01, 2013, 12:59 #39993

    Congratulations MarkH (you've joined the elite group of people who cant understand what a question-mark stands for). As in: one we all got wrong? (ending with a question mark); some of us got it wrong, and for those who didnt, well done

79. MarkH

    Oct 01, 2013, 12:10 #39992

    There is a masiive difference between constructive cricticsism, and the bile spewed out by some in the crowd and on here. And 'we' did not all get it wrong!

80. JAYJAY

    Oct 01, 2013, 11:02 #39990

    Canadagooner.You can not just digest that Wenger out is a finished idea, done and dusted.The club, the players, supporters, they all behind the manager and we don't mind to accommodate few morons like you.Even idiots have right to publish their opinion.

81. Brian Dawes

    Oct 01, 2013, 9:37 #39988

    If I had a pound for everytime I'd heard an unjustified panning of an Arsenal player I'd probably have been able to purchase the Club instead of Kroenke. Apologising to Ramsey is a fairly obvious thing to do, but how many of those reading this or adding comments are still moronically slating some other Arsenal player?

82. James

    Oct 01, 2013, 9:04 #39987

    The last time Peter Wain was seen he was heading off to his local pie shop to eat some 'humble' with his friend Tony Evans with those two spud chicks She-ra and her mate. Later that day they were seen lamenting over a large turd that had somewhat fallen from grace or was it Manure.

83. Mark from Aylesbury

    Oct 01, 2013, 8:32 #39986

    Thing about Ramsey was he always applied himself but up until recently most efforts would sail over the bar. My general thoughts were he would probably end up being sold and that would have been a sad end. So totally brilliant that he is back to his best. Now who is that guy Diaby?

84. Westlower

    Oct 01, 2013, 7:57 #39985

    maquiresbridge gooner, Players returning from bad injuries need the people around them (coaching staff & fans) to keep faith with them and not admit defeat easily. AFC would have a colossal turnover of players with your 'get rid' attitude when their performances displease you. It takes patience & compassion to support a player when he's going through a bad patch, try showing some before you bawl out the next piece of 'dead wood'. That's what 'real' supporters do, SUPPORT!

85. Moscow Gooner

    Oct 01, 2013, 6:53 #39984

    Surely the Ramsey 'turn around' is very obvious? He was played out of position for two years (as was Arshavin) - for that reason never criticised either of them. Was this a smart move by AW to rehabilitate him? Maybe - but the team paid quite a price for this and it might have broken a lesser player. For the team as a whole we've seen too many false dawns before but the general inconsistency of the other title contenders really gives us a fighting chance this year, Wenger or no Wenger. But please no contract renewal until we have had the chance to evaluate the team against the likes of Chelsea and Utd rather than against THFC or Sunderland...

86. maguiresbridge gooner

    Sep 30, 2013, 23:37 #39982

    Far far to many getting carried away at the moment we've won F all yet and haven't for the last eight years, and because we're on a good run at the moment and signed one real world class player in those eight years doesn't mean we're going to be any different this season it's way to early for creaming of pants yet but that's exactly whats happening, lets wait until we've played twenty games to start getting excited. And the same goes for Ramsey, he's had a bad injury yes and wasn't helped by OGL playing him out of position and keeping him in the firing line rather than admit defeat and rest him, when at the end of the day his displays were woeful and why shouldn't fans vent their displeasure at that? but how long do you give a player to come good? thankfully Ramsey has done just that he's come good and hit form, that's all, players do it all the time, it's what he's earning big bucks for, but he's proved nothing yet only that he can get over a bad injury and play well, and neither has OGL, nothings been won yet. Lets hope Ramsey can keep his run going along with the team and actually win something this season and then all the crowing and creaming of pants can begin whether it's about Ramsey or whoever.

87. Rocky RIP

    Sep 30, 2013, 22:46 #39980

    @theopants - by 'highly respected' I mean 'people intelligent enough to know better' take him seriously. I sometimes have a peep at his bold pronouncements just to see what he is feeding his followers. (It's normally an anti-Wenger agenda or unequivocal statements of fact about things that are actually mere conjecture. All coming from someone who isn't actually an Arsenal fan.) He was tipping Owen Coyle for Arsenal manager a couple of seasons ago. This Summer we'd officially signed Cesc. The deal was done. Still, good luck to him.

88. theopants superstar

    Sep 30, 2013, 21:49 #39978

    Rocky RIP: I'm not sure the words highly respected and Myles Palmer should ever be written in the same sentence!! Canada Gooner: No-one is claiming that they thought Ramsey would develop into the next Lionel Messi, just that they were more understanding of the situation Ramsey was going through and thus didn't get on his back or write him off as not good enough like others did.

89. We?

    Sep 30, 2013, 21:19 #39977

    Sorry who is 'we' exactly?

90. lee afc

    Sep 30, 2013, 21:00 #39973

    I have not heard anything from PETER WAIN and his crew recently.....is the start of the season hurting you my friend. Come on, you can still make your feelings felt. On the Aaron Ramsey situation, far too many so called gooners are eating plenty of humble pie.....Nice piece Canada. you speak as you find mate.

91. GoonerRon

    Sep 30, 2013, 16:55 #39959

    Firstly, isn't it great to have a player exceeding (I'd imagine) everybody's expectations at the start of the season - it's a real bonus. I always liked Ramsey because he always showed heart, always showed for the ball, even when it was clear his confidence was rock bottom. That isn't a trait that just any player will demonstrate. I think it takes guts from the manager to persevere with a player in these circumstances as he will inevitably take criticism for doing so. I don't think it's any coincidence that Ramsey's form picked up in the second half of last season after Wenger publicly backed him by giving him a new contract - at 21 years old having struggled for so long, that must have made him feel top of the world. For the record, I said in his poorer moments that he's a good squad player but if we really wanted to challenge for the top honours a player like Ramsey shouldn't/couldn't be in our first choice XI. At the moment he is undroppable such has been his improvement - long may it continue.

92. Unchives

    Sep 30, 2013, 16:49 #39958

    Come on Guys....no matter what happens, its Arsens last contractual season , we are top of the league, lets get behind the team now and stop being so negative. Both Ramsay and the team have been excellent. Get behind the team now and we can argue the toss at the end of the season! COYG!

93. JJB

    Sep 30, 2013, 16:40 #39957

    Those who were baying for his blood and heckling from the stands should be ashamed, but also if you are going to come out and admit you indulged in that type of behaviour you really dont have much business coming to an Arsenal match! I detest fans who continually pick out our players to boo and get on their back, it serves no purpose! I didnt like Gervinho, but I didnt understand how getting on his back was ever going to help him and as for Ramsey which is a different kettle of fish all together due to the horrific nature of his injury, it just shows how much of our fansbase are moronic! He was always going to take time ot get better, although none of us saw this type of form, and already I read comments online about Wilshere! He is now getting stick because he isnt suddenly producing top performances, will our fans ever learn! Shameful!

94. Croker

    Sep 30, 2013, 16:34 #39956

    Thanks for your post Canada and good luck coping with all the ensuing flak coming your way but you clearly have some balls. To some, Wenger has worked miracles coping with the Club finances and competing against Oligarchs and petrodollars. I found it nerve racking looking at some of the line ups and the lack of quality on the bench, post Highbury compared to previous years. It's fair though to question whether he spent the money he had available wisely and the wage structure - I don't think that's being anti-Wenger, we're all fans and we're passionate about the Arsenal so when things don't look right, we say so. He does seem to have found a decent keeper and the defensive side of our play has really tightened up so fair play to Wenger if Stevie Bould deserves the credit for that and has been allowed to work on previous frailties. Ramsey had to cope with being played out of position (purportedly to help him develop) then he was thrust into a Cesc role so to emerge from that pressure to deliver and a horrific assault from Shawcross is fantastic. Let's all stay behind our Team and look forward to the Napoli match to see how far forward we have come.

95. Bard

    Sep 30, 2013, 16:11 #39954

    Ron:great call, Wally plus £30m for Suarez. Fantastic deal. Gnabry already looks like understands the game. Wally never will.

96. Westlower

    Sep 30, 2013, 16:09 #39953

    Flegly, Words of sanity, well said!

97. flegly

    Sep 30, 2013, 15:46 #39951

    If he was able to sort any constructive criticism from the vitriol that was thrown at him from every direction then fair play to him, but I suspect/hope that the only people the pro's listen to are those in the business. If they were to listen to the fans/papers then it's highly likely even fewer would make the top level. Perhaps that's why there are so few British players that do make the top level as the praise is heaped on way too early and the hate follows very quickly behind!

98. BADARSE

    Sep 30, 2013, 15:39 #39950

    @Ron, I liked the post a number of days ago when you talked of injuries etc. I too get into the grist of posture, body shape and movement. In Marseille my grandson, a good little athlete, went on a training run with our friend, a tri-athlete. He came back singing the lad's praises and acknowledged what I have always said, that he has a beautifully fluent running style. He went a level above me though, explaining that he runs leaning forward slightly and needs to develop his abdominals which in turn will hold him more erect. This will give him faster speeds. Fascinating! Think you are aware I don't rate Theo. Yes he seems a nice kid, but a very rich nice kid now. I would sell tomorrow if I could, he is not a footballer. What you suggest as improvement techniques he might follow is very interesting.

99. CT Gooner

    Sep 30, 2013, 14:51 #39946

    I think again, we are all forgetting why he was criticized in the first place. Why did he have to learn in the Arsenal first team over the last 3 years, why couldn't he be loaned out to gain more confidence and strength? I do believe we haven't appropriately competed for many years, and have been "rebuilding" if you will. Maybe that was Arsene's masterplan, but he didn't sell it that way to the faithful paying 1200 a year to finance this. I also believe he's been great this year, but before getting too carried away with "told you so", just thought I'd add a little balance.

100. maguiresbridge gooner

     Sep 30, 2013, 14:21 #39944

     When a player gets a bad injury how long to you give him (especially one who still had everything to prove) two three four five years to come good? how long are we going to give Diaby? the same can be said of a new signing how long before you admit defeat and pull the plug? fair play to Wenger he didn't pull the plug on Ramsey when he was putting in some woeful performances and stuck by him and had faith in him when a lot of others hadn't. But Wenger has never been one to admit defeat easily, Diaby how much longer? the waiter in goal, and that position hasn't exactly been sorted, and all the other dross he bought over the years and stuck by, and hung on and kept playing them in the hope they'd come good but eventually had to admit defeat and get rid. Ramsey wasn't one of them though and he is repaying the manager for that now and indeed the fans as well with his performances and goals, and i think it would be fair to say he's still not the finished article with still more potential to fulfill like a lot of other players we have, and that has been the problem over the years, too much potential and not the finished article and waiting and waiting for it to come good when it never did, at least he got Ramsey right.

101. Ron

     Sep 30, 2013, 14:08 #39943

     BADARSE - Gnabry? Yes, old fasioned inside forward maybe mate. Good call. Ill have to see him 'live' before i judge him and need to see a few games too. What he has though is wonderful balance. Hes solid and uses his size and build to avoid being pushes of the ball. The best i ever saw at doing that was Francis Lee at Man C who was a quick mover and scored for fun. Mind you, he knew when to go down if he fell over an ant as well, hence the pens he used to win!!This kid seems to have it all, speed and strength, plus hes German so he probably as hard as iron between the ears. PS Just as an aside on Walcott whos now threatened by Gnabry, he needs posture training. He walks hunch backed, sloped shouldered and his head protrudes oddly while he walks. As a result when he runs, these problems are exacerbated. This is why he s no abilty to avoid being knocked off the ball. He can address this by slowing up plus his ball control will improve. Its bad coaching at Arsenal to ask him to be a speed merchant. Thats was good for Overmars who could also play football proficiently. Walcott cant. Hes a runner whos masquerading as a footballer but who could be optimised by somebody taking him to one said and telling him his sprinting belongs on a track not a football pitch. This will extend his career too. If they dont do something with him, he ll be a busted flush by the time hes 26 ish as his speed goes. Its a case with him of trying to make the best of poor raw materials. Hes not natural in anything he does. Seems a nice boy of course, but that alone wont get him far. Do nothing and Gnabry will see Wally on the bench or sold sooner than he thinks. Im not anti Walcott for the sake of it. I just cant see any redeemeing feature in him as a footballer. In fact, id have threw him as makeweight for Suarez had Arsenal really wanted the cannibal (which i didnt by the way). Say 30 Mill plus Walcott. Liverpool might have gone for that. Wally is a fan and theyve wanted him for ages. They or anyone can have him for me as hes not Arsenal standard (in my view)

102. Canterbury Gooner

     Sep 30, 2013, 14:00 #39942

     Ignore the AKB haters, Canada. They defend all the players purely because Wenger has chosen them. Criticisms of Ramsey were legitimate- he was awful the previous two seasons. It was bad mismanagement to keep playing him in that period- he needed time to rest, not be overplayed and all over the place, because Wenger didn't want to buy players. Also those praising Wenger for sticking by players, they have also, despite a lack of proof, said he's had no money to bring in new additions, so surely he'd have to stick by them if that's the case? Also, as in the case of RvP and Ramsey later, do you think either player would have gained a fee of more than a few million while they were injury prone/recovering slowly from a serious injury? You all praised him standing by Alex Song but then he refused to extend his contract and sold him to Barca when there was a large transfer fee offered...

103. JAMIE

     Sep 30, 2013, 13:56 #39941

     The WOB's should be locked in the stocks where us AKB's can hurl rotten fruit and vegetables at them till our hearts content, that should humble those turnip heads. I always said the guy was class and would come good again but you wouldn't listen would you, as I've said before Wenger knows best while his knockers tend to all be as thick as a whale omelette.

104. Spaced

     Sep 30, 2013, 13:49 #39940

     Actually, I still have my reservations about Ramsey (believe it or not). Amongst lesser reasons, I think he doesn't have the speed of thought to become a top player. That's not to say I would like to see the back of him, far from it... but I don't see him keeping this purple patch of form going. A great squad player, not a world beater. (I do hope I'm wrong though).

105. Spaced

     Sep 30, 2013, 13:28 #39938

     Canada, you are an odd chap. You make a very presumptuous statement about other's thoughts, then jump down the throat of those that correct you.... As it happens, I didn't like Ramsey, and whilst discussing him in the past I noticed that there were a fair few that disagreed with me. I don't think they are geniuses, they just saw something in him that I didn't. I definitely wouldn't want them managing Arsenal!

106. CanadaGooner

     Sep 30, 2013, 13:20 #39937

     @RockyRIP - I hear ya. But Ramsey is a one off in terms of the horrific injury situation in combination with the fact that he was starting to show some real talent prior to the injury. Eduardo couldnt quite do the same (but was he given as much time?). If you look at some of the players we've cleared out in the past, who have then gone on and done pretty well elsewhere, I am baffled by some of the comments, when the likes of Man Utd held on to Scholes & Giggs for so long, to get the experience passed on to some of their new players. Everyone's entitled to their opinion however, and from a personal perspective, I never saw Ramsey turning out this good. And not just the goals, his attitude and link-up play 9and even how hard he now hits his shots) have been quite astonishing

107. Jack

     Sep 30, 2013, 13:19 #39936

     No need to apologise.Ramsey's form was poor over the last two years and the criticism was justified.You can only call it as you see it.I was right about Gervinho from day one.Wenger deserves every criticism he has got for the last 8 years though

108. BADARSE

     Sep 30, 2013, 13:14 #39935

     Ron, Rocky RIP. I think JW's problem is a young man's inexperience, allied with a burning desire to show himself, as well as the rest of us, how much he wants to be a lionheart for the Arsenal. An older wiser head, who has been this way before, will temper his urgency, and ease his way back to form by doing the bread and butter stuff first. He is certainly not rash or reckless, but it does seem his foot is on the floor all the time. Ironically, without which the second goal wouldn't have happened in the way it did, due to his ball-winning. He has moved wider, and like Aaron before him, I feel it's a decision made to take him out of the central midfield furnace a little. Santi will perhaps share the load with him for a few games, then with injuries he will be no doubt shuffled with the rest of the pack. In answer to the Gnabry question, he looks like an old fashioned inside forward, what thinks you Ron? He has an engine which is vital and it serves him well; his work rate is very high for a youngster. Would be interesting to know which position he favours though.

109. Rocky RIP

     Sep 30, 2013, 13:13 #39934

     2 more players who highly respected and well-read voices at Arsenal got wrong, I quote... ''And remember, Thierry Henry is not a striker. He is not a goalscorer. He scored only 20 goals in 103 games for Monaco. And he did nothing at Juventus. Henry is a right-footed left winger who is quick and skillful. He can also play wide on the right. Even Arsene Wenger cannot make Henry into a striker. So lets get that straight in our minds before we read any more ignorant tosh in the papers. Got it? Thierry Henry is a winger." "Why Van Persie should be sold (Sep 29, 2008) By Myles Palmer Robin van Persie doesn’t make it. He is a bang!bang! striker whose style does not fit the way the team plays. He is not a team player and will never be a team player. He plays far too selfishly, most of his passes are afterthoughts, he slows the moves down, and he shoots from silly angles again and again and again.Van Persie is a current international striker but he hasn’t made it. He’s had his chance and he’s not good enough. He will never be any better than he is now. Arsene Wenger should not deny that for one more day. Robin van Persie should be sold. "

110. Westlower

     Sep 30, 2013, 13:05 #39933

     What's the real definition of 'Constructive Criticism'. Is it vociferous critics who intimidate loyal uncritical 'quieter' supporters from cheering their team? Is it questioning every decision the manager makes, eg team selection, substitutions, transfers, club record winning runs,etc? Is it trying to prevent the manager from signing a new contract? Is it telling him to get rid of 'dead wood' like Ramsey? What's the latest constructive criticism? Get rid of Bendter (just don't like him), Diaby (always injured), Walcott (too fast), Mertesacker (too slow), Szcesny, Viviano (why give him a fair chance), Ryo (hasn't scored yet), etc. Your form of constructive criticism is disruptive towards AFC and I believe that's how you want it to be.

111. radfordkennedy

     Sep 30, 2013, 13:02 #39932

     Ron...I agree with you mate on your comments concerning JW ,he's a terrific player there's no doubt but Liam Brady he aint, a goal return of somewhere in the region of 1 every 21 games is testament to that,but driving at the opposition and laying of a killer pass is what he's good at and not trying to beat everyone or running up blind alleys and falling over,its almost as you say ron he's trying to live up to the star billing and expectations placed upon him..I do think that if once in a while he put six laces through the ball instead of looking to pass on the edge of the D again and grab a goal it might help him to calm down a tad and really focus on being a mid field dynamo rather than trying to beat everyone to prove a point which only exsists in his head.

112. Rocky RIP

     Sep 30, 2013, 13:02 #39931

     @Canada - Ramsey is not a one off. There are plenty of examples of players Wenger has bought who the fans didn't take to at first, but then had to reassess their opinions of. I had screaming matches with Arsenal fans who claimed that Robert Pires was, and I quote, 'surplus to requirements' in his first season. Plenty still bemoaned selling Anelka, with Thierry Henry in our ranks, but not convincing plenty of Arsenal fans in his early days. (Yes, they did exist and the conversations happened.) The now highly regarded Mathieu Flamini got plenty of stick early on. 'We should have signed Scotty Parker', apparently. Freddie Llungberg received some serious stick early on. Ray Parlour was initially booed by sections of the east stand. He became a key player under Wenger. Alex Song was booed at Fulham by his own fans. Myles Palmer used to slag off RVP as overrated. The list goes on, people change their opinion (often justifiably), but then have short memories and deny it years later. PS. I hope you don't classify me as one of the 'saw it coming' with Ramsey types. I'm not. It's a pleasant surprise to all of us I'd say who are happy to have our doubts banished (for now atleast.)

113. CanadaGooner

     Sep 30, 2013, 12:57 #39930

     did anyone spot the question mark after the title of this article? those who got it wrong as far as Ramsey goes (and I'm one of them) can relate to what's been said I suppose. For the geniuses who didnt get it wrong, and knew he was going to start scoring so many goals in 2013, well done folks; we should hire you to replace Wenger

114. Benny2

     Sep 30, 2013, 12:51 #39929

     "It isn’t that difficult to see that Arsène Wenger got it very wrong in the past eight years and that his stubbornness dragged the club way back". Jeez are you serious? Like his stubborness to stick with players like RVP and Ramsey?

115. Rocky RIP

     Sep 30, 2013, 12:42 #39928

     @Ron - I totally agree. He looks like he's running himself into the ground sometimes. The onus needn't be all on him, as it once was Cesc. Thankfully we can rotate now, which is a blessing. In fact, with Arteta back and when Cazorla comes back, who do we drop? Flamini has been integral to our recent run and I'd be loathed to drop him. Hopefully Gnabry will keep pushing for a first team place. It's the clichéd 'good problem to have'. We can hopefully use certain players to adapt to the type of opponent. What is Gnabry's favoured role, does anyone know?

116. CanadaGooner

     Sep 30, 2013, 12:33 #39925

     @ Georgaki_Pyrovolitis; very interesting comment indeed. I have to say, I have never, and doubt I ever will, boo arsenal at the stadium (the disappointment of losing when we do, is usually enough; and anger is usually the right emotion, and I dont have the time to waste booing). I have written several articles on here about why fans MUST support the team once the season's underway (and nyone on here should attest to that). What I find highly incredulous is that suddenly, nobody on here has ever slagged Ramsey off; and you all knew he was going to come good. ha ha. I cant stop laughing. Fortunately, there are a few consistent folks on here e.g. Ron, Tony Evans, Maguiresbridgegooner and a handful of others, who call it as they see it. For all the Gervinhos, Arshavin (when he wasnt playing well), Bendtners and others that Arsene has clung on to, over the years, ofcourse there will be one that gets better at some point, and that's what Ramsey has become this season (a one off); fair play to the lad

117. Ron

     Sep 30, 2013, 12:21 #39922

     Rocky - Watchiong JW to me is looking at a player whos putting too much pressure on himself to do too much. He looks to surge into opponents territory almsot each time he picks the ball up and/or to be instrumental in each move approaching the box. Jack for me needs to be given permission by AW to just concentrate on doing the simple things well, keep it tight and not feel obliged to be 'Roy of the Rovers'. This will perhaps speed up his ressurection as i see it. There are paralells with Ramsey and maybe JW needs to be given a lesser role as AR was given? I know hes fundamental, but he cant be fully that way unless he optimizes his fitness. He really doesn need rotating too.

118. Rocky RIP

     Sep 30, 2013, 11:31 #39921

     Long may the Ramsey renaissance continue, indeed. He said that dealing with the criticism from fans was actually harder to cope with than overcoming the injury. Which should be a lesson to us all. No player ever played better under a weight of disapproval. Sport is so much about confidence. If your own fans don't back you it could destroy you. Our manager has clearly bought some duds over the years. No question. However, is he really so stupid as to not recognise the 'mistakes' and move them on? (Even if some take longer to shift than we'd have liked, due to an unwise wage policy.) When he shows faith in them, they are nearly always worth showing faith in as far as I'm concerned. Ramsey included. If they're not, he will recognise it and ship them out - with the odd peculiar exceptions still floating around the club. Wilshere looks like a player struggling for fitness and his best form. Let's not get on his back, it won't help. He's a quality player. Get behind him!

119. ppp

     Sep 30, 2013, 11:23 #39920

     It's fair enough for the writer to say he was wrong about Ramsey but not exactly fair to lump everyone else in the same boat. The writer (canadagooner) goes on to criticize a response for pointing this out. Canada, I've been to every home match and something like 30% of the away games for my entire adult life. In the last two years it is completely untrue to say the entire support has been on Ramsey's back because it hasn't. There were plenty of people supporting him and getting annoyed with the people slagging him off so vociferously. That you were in the loud section of slaggers is beyond doubt - your sanctimonious apology is all well and good but your attempt to make out like you somehow helped Ramsey is ridiculous. The angry mob who jumped all over Ramsey are the same ones who boo Wenger when we don't win. You are a loud minority and I respect your right to get upset and shout about it but don't expect everyone to agree with you or pat you on the back when you realise you were wrong. Most of us have been telling you that you were wrong since you started moaning and whinging. Maybe you should learn your lesson after the Ramsey episode? Anyway - I hope you feel better about the team in general and just so you know neither me nor any of the other supporters who you seem to loathe are getting carried away. We're just enjoying the game our own way.

120. chris dee

     Sep 30, 2013, 11:22 #39919

     No we didn't all get it wrong. Some have fans pointed out that United and Arsenal both wanted Aaron Ramsey because he was one of the most talented young players in Europe. He signed for Arsenal and was brilliant 18 year old until that f****g animal Shawcross broke,no not broke,but shattered his leg.If it had been an older players it would have ended his career.So it should have been understandable his recovery and confidence would take a lot to repair,but no, some chose to boo him at the Emirates and slag him off on this website. But now?We all love him. Still that's football fans (like me) for you. We now await the sainthood of Nic Bendtner if he scores a few goals.

121. theopants superstar

     Sep 30, 2013, 11:22 #39918

     With all due respect we didn't ALL it get wrong on Ramsey!! Some of us gooners knew from his early performances there was a good player in there and that he had to psychologically get over the traumatic experience he went through before he could became the player we hoped he would be, thus we DIDN'T get on his back. Being played out of position by Wenger also didn't help Ramsey's cause and it contributed to the frustration and doubts some fans (and perhaps even he?) were having. Without wanting to get too carried away, being used in his proper role Aaron is now starting to show the talent and fulfill the promise that made all us gooners excited when we first heard we'd snatched him from the grasp of Man United. Long may it continue!!

122. Westlower

     Sep 30, 2013, 11:13 #39917

     Maybe you've misunderstood the concept of supporting the team and all who play in it. For many years now the Arsenal squad is packed full of International class players. On any given International break we have typically 14-17 on duty. This defines their quality. The variables are: time to settle in for new signings & kids; confidence levels; current form. This is where the support angle comes in. Unless we are tolerant & patient for long enough, confidence & form go out of the window. Any player going through a bad patch will not recover by suffering abuse from the terrace critics. I don't care how much you've paid for your ticket(s)you are not helping the player and consequently the team by voicing your disapproval. Ramsey rediscovered his form largely on away games & pre-season friendlies abroad where he was outstanding. He certainly wasn't encouraged by the critical home support last season & became anxious in his play. Gervinho scored 2 goals for Roma yesterday, yet another player who lost his confidence playing in front of 'get him off' brigade. Probably because of the Sky/MOTD pundits every incident gets over analysed. A player has to be foot perfect these days or he's quickly labelled as dead wood. Alan McInally labelled Poldolski as useless before he'd even kicked a ball for AFC. Leave it to the manager, whoever he maybe, to decide who's fit to represent AFC and support his judgement whether you agree or not. You may get a pleasant surprise when your judgement is found to be flawed, aka Ramsey & Flamini!!

123. Georgaki_Pyrovolitis

     Sep 30, 2013, 11:07 #39915

     You have no balls CanadaGooner. You have not acknowledged that Arsene Wenger was the most important person in all of this. It was he as manager that showed faith and patience in Aaron Ramsey. So many pundits have commentated on this recently saying that no other manager of club would have kept such faith in a player. Whether you or I or anybody got it wrong is immaterial (unless you are one of the cowards who boos players at the Grove). Also, you refuse to accept the confirmation made on numerous occasions by trained accountants that Arsenal did NOT have the resources to compete these last few years. By refusing to accept this truth you confirm, to me at least, that you cannot give credit where it is due. And that is a shame.

124. Graham Simons

     Sep 30, 2013, 11:00 #39914

     I'm sorry but I've seen us loads this year and I didn't criticise Ramsey either. His poor performances were down to Wenger playing him out of position. He'll never be a right winger.

125. Ron

     Sep 30, 2013, 10:48 #39912

     CG - Perhaps a tad harsh on 'absolute gooner' matey. There are a lot whove stuck by AR despite his apparent shortcomings over the last 12 months. Like others have said though, Giroud isnt prolific and AR is propping up the 'goals for' column right now, a point reinforced as the canninbal stepped up and scores twice for Liverpool yesterday. Its worrying.

126. Mike

     Sep 30, 2013, 10:39 #39910

     some credit must also go to the manager - he stuck by Ramsey because he knew what he had - one could even say that playing him out of position made him a better player - anyway I for one am eating my words from a year ago - I used to cringe each time he started - long may he continue - now if only Jack Wilshire could step up to the plate as well

127. Bard

     Sep 30, 2013, 10:26 #39908

     All I can say thank goodness for Rambo's form. Without his exceptional form ( not just his goals ) we would be back at ground zero despite Ozil. Excited though I am about our current form I fear that when his form dips as it will where are the goals going to come from. All the told you so comments on here are fankly pathetic. Let's show a little more class. I don't buy the Wenger magic wand argument. OZil was a last minute buy to keep us onside. An argument since confirmed by reports leaking from the club.

128. ZB20H

     Sep 30, 2013, 10:15 #39907

     What a load of self serving balls. You criticise Wenger for his 'stubborness' but who was it that stubbornly stood by Ramsey and kept playing him whilst people like you were giving the boy dogs abuse?

129. CanadaGooner

     Sep 30, 2013, 10:13 #39906

     @Absolutegooner - at least some of us have the balls and decency to say we're wrong, when we're wrong. You must be ONE OF A KIND my friend (either that or you havent been at a single arsenal 'live' match), thanks for the sanctimonious comment though. It is virtually impossible not to receive criticism when you upload an article on here, as people will always find something to attack. It would take a ROBOT (programmed not to complain) not to have lashed out at Ramsey in the last 2 seasons over some of the glaring misses! but then, there's always a model of PERFECTION like our friend, absolutegooner.

130. John Gooner

     Sep 30, 2013, 10:11 #39905

     Good article, very fair. The problem we're facing now is that the team is being propped up by goals from a player who rarely scores more than 2 or 3 goals in a season. Whether it's in the next couple of games, or in 10 games time, Ramsey's form in front of goal will come to an end (as it has every right to). Perhaps the returning Cazorla, Ox, Walcott and Poldi will make up for any drop off in Aaron's scoring rate, but it remains to be seen where the goals will come from. Great to see a young British player playing at the top of his game and pulling the team along by the scruff of its neck.

131. Absolutegooner

     Sep 30, 2013, 10:04 #39904

     I don't like the use of 'we' in the title. Maybe you were critical but not every gooner was calling for his head while he was still off form. I don't think anyone an honestly say they thought he'd come good this quick but I personally never doubted him and am not alone in that regard. He's had some below average performances during periods that the team has struggles but I always thought he was judged harshly because he made for an easy scape goat. Now that he's on fire his critics, not just you, pretend like we were unified in overly criticizing the kid. Speak for yourself.

132. Ron

     Sep 30, 2013, 9:59 #39903

     Hes had a lot of stick. Injury aside re his performances, he s been a player who just never 'got on my radar' either for or against him really but when contemplating why i felt that way i admit to thinking that the injury had perhaps finished him mentally and we d never know or see what he could have done. He seems a smashing lad and good luck to him with his play at the present. Lets credit the Club and Arsene too though. Theyve stuck by that boy as they have Diaby, thats Arsenal class for you. I know Diaby is slightly different as its been so long and perhaps too long arguably but the same assuranace fo the player is there re Ramsey. It must help. Lets see how Aaron shapes up v top midfields though. Like the team overall, we need to see that. I think the Flamini return has helped a hell of a lot actually. A midfielder alweays needs to know there s a 'hod carrier' in there somewhere, ready to exact revenge if opponents try and screw them over. We ve needed it for years and Arsene is wrong not have addressed that. Flamini looks better now than before in my view too.

133. BADARSE

     Sep 30, 2013, 9:52 #39902

     Thanks CanadaGooner. A timely, and nicely worded piece. I see with my own eyes, and with them I always saw a kid with huge potential. His career came to an abrupt halt with his assassination at Stoke, and has stuttered since. I believed we had lost him, and only the shell of a Young Gun remained. Last season's run in saw a resurgent Aaron, but nothing he did then could have prepared any of us for what has transpired this season, so my friend you don't stand alone on that score. Incredible performances, goals aplenty, and an effusive attitude is helping to ignite this term for the whole club, and us fans too. Enjoy the moment.

134. Tony Evans

     Sep 30, 2013, 9:51 #39901

     Well said Canada. It is great to see Arsenal back on top, but, as many have said, 6 games in is hardly a yard-stick for the whole season. Whatever happens this season (and I hope it is all good) Wenger screwed up badly over the last 8 years; we stayed in the top 4 I know but it could and should have been so much more.

135. billthered

     Sep 30, 2013, 9:43 #39900

     I for one never criticised Rambo unlike a few around me last season including my son.I always said he had a horrendous injury and to give him credit he played in a number of positions and never complained.His injury could have put him out of the game for good after that assault by the Stoke City second row forward and good luck to him for the future,on our future it is early days yet but it does feel as though something is happening to our club and as all gooners we should be grateful that at last SOME of the purse strings have been released now if come January we are still in the frame buy some experience and keep us there.

136. raj

     Sep 30, 2013, 9:43 #39899

     The money was not made available in the past.. that is a fact according to David dein

137. GunnerEP

     Sep 30, 2013, 9:26 #39896

     I loved the sarcastic comments used against our opponents!.. Beautifully written for a well deserved player for us this season!