Arsenal v Tottenham – On All Fronts

An evening with Alex Fynn? Free to you



Arsenal v Tottenham – On All Fronts

Arsenal and Spurs – Who is operating best?


My old sparring partner (and co-author) Alex Fynn gives an annual talk for the students of the sports business course at Birkbeck College, and 2013 is no exception. What’s more, for reasons best known to the man himself, he likes to boost his audience with interested outsiders, rather than merely those studying the course. Perhaps this is because, come the question and answer element of the evening, there is more informed opinion from the floor. Who knows? Certainly, the events are open to anyone interested.

Anyway, this year’s talk is on the subject of Arsenal and Tottenham and how the two clubs compare both on and off the field. It takes place on Monday evening at 6pm and the venue is in Malet Place, not far from Tottenham Court Road – there is a map here.

Full details are available on the website Sports Business Centre website, although here is the full synopsis of what will be discussed by Alex from that very page -

A dozen years ago, whilst Arsenal under the magician Arsène Wenger were emulating the great Spurs double side of 1960/61 both in terms of style and success, Tottenham under George Graham (!) were busy turning themselves into an inferior version of Graham’s “one-nil-to-the-Arsenal” trophy-winning teams of the later 1980s and early 1990s. The intervening years have seen, while Wenger has seemingly lost his innovator’s touch, Tottenham belatedly rediscover their heritage and tradition. So today the clubs are neck-and-neck in their pursuit of sporting success, Tottenham manfully overcoming the handicap of an antiquated stadium – every home fixture that goes by Arsenal put an extra £1m cash into their bank account over their North London neighbours.

Espousing modern football management theory, recognising that the manager does not have a monopoly on tactical wisdom, and with the aid of a shrewd chairman (Daniel Levy) and technical director (Franco Baldini), Tottenham may at last be in a position to show Arsenal the way. Arsenal, for their part, are seemingly resistant to challenging their manager, either on or off the field, and are paying the consequences in the lack of substantive support from scouting and coaching.

Alex Fynn created the first advertising campaign for a football club for Tottenham Hotspur in the 1980s, and subsequently advised Arsenal on the creation of the Premier League. He has also (co)-written a number of books on the two clubs, the latest being Arsènal: The Making of a Modern Superclub (2011, recently reprinted for the fourth time). In this presentation he will illustrate how two strong brands, for one reason or the other, are not performing at their optimum; and are failing to acknowledge the fundamental premise that to have a successful business you first need a successful team. Against this background he speculates on their chances for domestic and international success.


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  1. BADARSE

    Oct 17, 2013, 13:11 #40620

    Ha ha jjetplane. Being a fan is so much more than your team just winning a game, and ultimately a trophy. We all crave that, it is in our genes, strive to succeed. It's the overview which is important, the cement between the bricks which holds the wall together. I personally am well tuned to these aspects, they have been teammates for virtually all my life. I fill myself up on the minutiae of anything Arsenal, and make no secret of my enjoyment in trading experiences with other Gooners. Often people learn, and it isn't one way traffic of older passing wisdom to the young; I learn so much from the young it's uncanny that they have so much to offer. On a grander scale it is the single biggest failing in our society, that we haven't nurtured and developed our young as we should have done. They are the most vital investment for all our futures. Ah, there I go straying off the subject, that's dementia, now where did I put my tablets. Oh, and keep any reminiscences coming buddy.

  2. jjetplane

    Oct 17, 2013, 11:58 #40619

    Again that 69 game at WH was a game I went to with my best mate who was a s... but he loved The Who so that made up for it. We spent the entire game with toes off the ground and feet squeezed through railings and jeeez the atmos was uniquely dark side. Bad, brilliant night for me. Funny how someone else mentioned nipping down to see the spuds hopefully lose if Arsenal were away. My first game was Totts v Everton and then it was highbury schoolboys for the 60s. Funny how I also ended up wearing a Everton shirt I nicked off a gooner mad brother in those days. Did also manage to see Chivers 'break a leg' while holding the guffaws in til we reached London again ....

  3. BADARSE

    Oct 17, 2013, 11:02 #40618

    Glad you were there jjetplane. It's odd, when you know someone else was present, sharing exactly what you might have been at the exact same moment it forges a kind of kinship, or am I overstating? To me it just makes us brothers in arms. Again, that evening over 43 years ago, stays fresh in my memory. Remember, of those present that evening many have drifted off the radar, so not many of us still about. Nice story of the WHL game the following season. Pretty unique! Let's hope the next celebration isn't too far away.

  4. jjetplane

    Oct 16, 2013, 20:46 #40617

    Nicely put Badarse. Was in the schoolboys for that and ended up in the north bank net for the one and only time. Happy and covered in Highbury mud. A year later my younger bruv fainted at WHL and we ended up with a birds eye view of all proceedings before singing all the way back to Manor House. what a time it all was.

  5. Ron

    Oct 15, 2013, 15:53 #40599

    Most Gooners not there (like me) in 1970 would love to have been. My Unc took my Cousin, who wasnt really into footie. I still have a go at him even now, that i missed out!!

  6. BADARSE

    Oct 15, 2013, 14:06 #40596

    radfordkennedy, it must have been an 8pm KO because I still see the clock at the Clock End reading 8.25. I know, 'Ooh Ooh, Ed Kelly', scored 25 mins in. I absorbed that clock after the goal. Yes a magical moment. The whole stadium took off. Magnificent! In the second half with I believe under twenty minutes to go Big Raddy soared, hung in the air, and powered a header into the North Bank goal. We were delirious. It was happening at last! We were winning the Cup! The furore was still at a high decibel when dear old Sammy blasted the ball home. I am lost now, but it may have been across the keeper into the net. We had to find more lung power from somewhere, but our legs as well were being punished. Most were doing a Highbury Riverdance, at least mine were. Down a dozen steps, crush, back up again, crush, back down, laughing, screaming, trying to join in coherently in the songs, '...I'd walk a million miles, for one of your goals, Jon Sammels!' Just over a quarter of an hour and not only would we win, but by a goal. Then they hit the post! Extra time had been a couple of inches away. Then the whistle. Champions! Oh, wow! Going for a lie down, I'm breathless.

  7. radfordkennedy

    Oct 15, 2013, 13:45 #40595

    Badarse...you mentioned eddie kelly I've got to say mate I think when eddie scored it was possibly the loudest explosion of noise I've ever heard from that day to this in a football ground,I seem to remember it being pandamonium leading up to sammels goal so the noise levels were already through the roof.But that moment when eddie scored wow what a noise

  8. Westlower

    Oct 15, 2013, 12:57 #40593

    Beating Anderlecht was the older generations release from all those trophy less years (17 in all). Maybe today's young supporters will shortly be getting their rewards? Keep the faith because it's WHEN, not if, when you support AFC.

  9. BADARSE

    Oct 15, 2013, 12:49 #40592

    Think Frank was around 33 when he left us. Could have gone on for at least another three seasons, I am sure.

  10. Ron

    Oct 15, 2013, 12:33 #40591

    R/K - Nice story. F Mac s view on that is documented some where mate and you had the privlige of having heard it in person! Great stuff. What a player he was. With modern facilities, medics and rotating etc etc he could have played till he was late 30s in todays game, yet Mee saw him as surplus at what? 31 ish was he? It was criminal then though even letting him go. Suspect by then there was trouble in the camp. That Alan Ball signing caused a lot of it i understand.

  11. BADARSE

    Oct 15, 2013, 12:23 #40590

    Ahh, radfordkennedy, Frank's answer wouldn't have surprised me chum. I flew to Brussels, having waited years to get to the gate we'd tripped over twice before in '68 and '69. So Anderlechtois was our dragon to slay. I stood mesmerised as they tore us apart. One nil, two nil, three nil. This wasn't how it was supposed to happen. To be left standing on the trapdoor waiting for the noose to tighten, which is what an annihilation in the first leg would have meant, was as bad as it could get. Then with seconds remaining and a stupefied crowd of Gooners watching their entrails being drawn suddenly found hope. Big Ray had scored! We whooped it up. Everyone in the crowd knew that at that moment the tie was alive again. We'd clawed our way back from the grave. We just needed the first goal at Highbury, which thanks to Eddie Kelly, we got. It was so tangible that night you could taste it. It changed the mood, the belief and it proved to change our history. Well done 'Skip', he called it right radfordkennedy, and he goes up another notch for me. That is the best story, and I shall carry it around with me.

  12. radfordkennedy

    Oct 15, 2013, 12:06 #40588

    Badarse..Ron..Weastlower I thought you might like to know that just after the move to the emirates my son told me that he thought arsenal had dragged football into the 21st centuary with regards to seating catering toilets etc in dare I say it the whole 'matchday experience'.Well I told him my matchday experience was a policeman singing Spanish Eyes before the game and the met police band marching round the ground at half time playing a medley of marches by Souza whilst the bandleader threw his mace up in the air infront of the north bank and tried not to drop it in the mud,if my son didn't believe me at that point when I told him a man would run down a small tunnel by the corner post at HT-FT with scores written on the back of a packet of woodbines and then push a board with a number on it through a slot to give a scoreline at another game,he gave me that look that only a son gives to a dad when he thinks your having him on....On the subject of turning tides of fortune ron I once took my young nephew fishing one sunday morning over to Grovelands Park in Southgate when Cap'n Frank should come walking past he asked after nephews luck that morning and I couldn't help identifying my self as a fan to him and I asked him do you mind if I ask you a question he said of course what do you want to know and I said to him'after the heartache of losing two successive finals in 68 and 69 was there an occasion occurence or match where you thought this our time',his answer took me aback a bit I thought he was going to say yeah when we beat so and so,but he said and I quote "I felt things changed for us when young ray kennedy scored a consolation goal against Anderlecht,I always thought we would win at home",strange that in a game we lost he felt that was the turning point

  13. Ron

    Oct 15, 2013, 10:43 #40587

    Westlower - Morning matey - Yes, raddy seems a lovely fella doesnt he. I met him again you know, just a few games before the seasons end in 05/06 as we left Highbury. He was with Charlie George in the bar in the West Upper. I d treated myself to one of those expensive match days/meal etc etc . Ironically, it was v West Brom again! We won 3 - 1 that day. As i recall, that day at Albion as a kid (see earlier post) i think we drew 1 - 1? Cant be sure now. WBA were a good side then. Astle Brown Kaye Williams Suggett and Clarke et al PS Oddly, about 15-20 Years back i met Astle in a pub Near Burton on Trent. Lovely guy. Very humble man. Massive chap. He died of blood clot to his head some years back, beleived to be caused from heading heavy footballs so hard and so often. It went like a bullet when he nutted it!

  14. BADARSE

    Oct 15, 2013, 10:41 #40586

    The world keeps spinning Ron, and we just go around on that gigantic carousel. Different values, perceptions, everything ever changing. Now as technology accelerates it creates a huge wash of views. The young pup stands against the bastion of reason, in a demand for equality. The principle is right but the fermentation of ideas is too brief, so many opposite views are narrow. Sadly, I see it only worsening. Money drives like never before. All we really have left is our memories, and a few younger interested parties. Not for too much longer unfortunately chaps. Still, for the time being, Good Old Arsenal! All nice accounts though, it's been a pleasure to read them.

  15. Ron

    Oct 15, 2013, 10:23 #40585

    BADARSE and RadfordKennedy - Two lovely stories. Ive still got the programme from that WBA game ha. Its an 'Albion News' and Raddy signed it in my Dads green biro that he had to use for his passenger check off/on sheet. Strange how the 60s evokes such great memories yet we werent at all impressive as a team till later in the decade. Must be our kid type recollections that do it, but i loved that period from 67 - 70 as a kid. You could feel we were 'on the rise' again couldnt you and Billy Wrights youngsters were all maturing nicely. Yes R/K Gloucs and Worcs is all rugby. I get to 'The 6 Ways' stadium to see the rugby (Worcester Warriors) sometimes. Its very good. Football crowds could learn a lot from the rugby. The banter and having a glass of beer while in your seat with other Clubs fans is really enjoyable. R/K - i recall when Raddy played for England, do you? So proud of him. He was of course playing alongside Charlton and Ball, Banks and Hurst etc then. Nowadays, i reckon we dread it when they get called up for fear of our players having their heads turned by wallies like Rooney Cole and Rio and Gerrad etc! Perhaps its unkind on them though, as we dont really know what goes on and what gets said do we? How times have changed from when a player was treated like a great god once he had wore the England shirt. They never seem to have any prise in the Eng or the Club shirts these days. I cant detect it anyway guys.

  16. Westlower

    Oct 15, 2013, 10:06 #40584

    Bumped into John Radford at Newmarket races a few years ago and asked for his autograph on my race card. "Are you sure you've got the right man?" he asked in his broad Yorkshire accent. "Yes, I've got the right man" I replied. How humble is that! Also got Alan Smith's autograph at Newmarket races, but on a different day. My missus still treasures the day she shook hands with AW as the team were exiting the coach on arrival at Goodison Park.

  17. radfordkennedy

    Oct 15, 2013, 9:53 #40583

    Ron..You're quite right mate spurs fans do seem to dissappear of the radar once you go west,I once had to go for 6 months to a place called South Cerney in Gloucestershire and as you know ron its big rugby country down there and as far as football was concerned the locals all seem to be liverpool or united fans with the occasional swindon fan as well..Raddy was my hero as well alas I didn't see a game till 68 and missed the semi with spurs but it sounds like one hell of a game,big john was confimed as my hero I think after a hat-trick against the mancs a few years later,although my dad used to come home berating this new boy radford when he first came on the scene saying he had a head shaped like a biscuit tin as his headers went anywhere but where they were intended I of course reminded him of this some years later..I tell ya you had to be quick to duck!!

  18. BADARSE

    Oct 15, 2013, 9:37 #40582

    Ron, we are all different and I am uneasy on here on occasions with the exchanges. It isn't really me a lot of the time, but I feel I have something to give so stick with it, trying to tread my own path. These connections, like this one, are little nuggets to me. I love the stories. Your story is a lovely one too. Dad, you the youngster, Arsenal, John Radford, autograph. It works for me buddy. Here is a story that you will like. In 1962 we played in the Fairs' Cup. We had beaten a Danish side( think they were anyway). It was a combined team and it was named Staevnet. We won out there 1-7. For the midweek second leg I sat in the East Upper, for the only time in my life. We played a weaker team and I was disappointed as my two heroes, Joe Baker and George Eastham, had been rested. In those days you had no idea what the team would be until you saw who ran out onto the pitch.At half time leading 2-1, I went walkabout and suddenly saw Joe and George chatting to a third chap. I scurried over and asked for their autographs. Without missing a beat, each smiled and signed my scrap of paper. In someway I had joined my heroes. That piece of paper is somewhere up in my loft now, but the memory is right here in front of me. Then we lost the game 2-3!

  19. Ron

    Oct 15, 2013, 8:33 #40581

    BADARSE - Big Raddy was a massive hero of mine mate. Loved him. My Dad took me to WBA one day (i was lucky as Dad drove coaches for one of the firms who took fans away then back in 67/8 time and i had a front seat!!). Met Raddy out side the ground and spoke to him as did loads of other kids, got his autograph as we could then. I was star struck.I wasn't interested in the other players that day!! Young fans don't half miss out these days as players in headphones are smuggled in or arrive via closed entrances at the bigger stadia.

  20. BADARSE

    Oct 14, 2013, 21:37 #40579

    A different slant on that 'bad' feeling radfordkennedy, whilst understanding and acknowledging the discomfort. For the second leg of the League Cup S/F in 1969, I had rushed to the ground, using my machete to make a pathway through the jungle that was WHL. Went into the first available turnstile and found myself in an alien world. It was like a scene from invasion of the body snatchers, scary! Raddy had scored in the last minute or so at Highbury in the first leg, breaking their black hearts. The game was finely balanced when Jimmy Greaves scored to make the tie level,until big John Radford scored with a trademark header. I gave a muted response but the moment is frozen in time for me as a fan wailed, and I do mean wailed, ' That ****ing Radford! He always ****ing does it to us!' It captured the moment for me. I still hear his voice! Perhaps that young fellow, now an old man, is wailing still.

  21. radfordkennedy

    Oct 14, 2013, 18:08 #40578

    Spaced....ah mate its the worst feeling in the world getting a ticket in the wrong end at WHL, some years ago now whilst home on xmas leave my pal got me ticket for the game when Charlie Nicholas got a brace scoring a terrific goal from distance over the keepers head, how i just sat there i do not know still happy days...

  22. Rocky RIP

    Oct 14, 2013, 17:04 #40577

    @spaced - which brings us neatly back to THAT semi at WHL in '87. It was so pivotal. Things were genuinely 'neck and neck' until then, but from that game on we pushed ahead of them and kept going. Just one reason why Rocky is such an Arsenal legend.

  23. Spaced

    Oct 14, 2013, 16:41 #40575

    Spuddite... haha love it Ron. That has brightened up what has been otherwise a dreary day! - My footballing memories of 1987 don't really extend beyond our cup triumph (my first Wembley visit and the reason why I'd like us to still go for that tin pot cup). As to going to early Rocky, I guess it's real true desperation, they crave any form of success so badly that they go mad at just a sniff.

  24. Rocky RIP

    Oct 14, 2013, 16:29 #40574

    @Ron - the ticket announcement was priceless. It seems they've not learned their lesson either. Wearing 'mind the gap' t-shirts to our place in Feb 2012. They always go too early. 13 points ahead at half-time, followed by a 5-2 spanking and a meltdown. Can anyone verify this please? They claimed Arsenal players had their suits fitted for the FA Cup final in 1991, prior to losing in the semi. Hence Gazza's interview about 'getting my suit mezz-zyad!' Did this actually happen? Or did they re-write history unfavourably, almost out of embarrassment for the 87 ticket announcement?

  25. Ron

    Oct 14, 2013, 16:22 #40573

    Rocky - the ticket announcment in 87 - for the League Cup Final takes some beating mate. Spaced - being in with their mob at Wembley 87 was good. A spuddite friend of mine got me his mates ticket. The superiority attitude they had before and during that game was staggering as Coventry clobbered them and won the Cup. Their attitude was barmy. Coventry had belted them up in Coventry only a few weeks before so it was hardly the terrible shock the BBC made it out to be on MOTD.

  26. Rocky RIP

    Oct 14, 2013, 16:03 #40572

    Anyway, whilst acknowledging that not every part of the Arsenal set up is ideal and that Tottenham may well be doing some stuff well these days, it'd be good to hear the findings from the evening.

  27. CT Gooner

    Oct 14, 2013, 15:37 #40570

    And again with the Spurs.... I wish we were as close to Chelsea as the Spurs are to us! If folks want this site to be glowing and positive, I think we need to focus on what's happening on the pitch, and not remind many of us why we have such contempt for Wenger & the board.

  28. Spaced

    Oct 14, 2013, 14:44 #40569

    Rocky, yes, that was it! Thanks, I'd forgotten exactly what they originally said. (us AKBs close our ears to such things ;) I loved the response but had to keep quiet as I was sat with the home supporters at the time... the spud's supporters I was with actually admitted that they got the worst out of that exchange!

  29. Rocky RIP

    Oct 14, 2013, 14:27 #40568

    @spaced - wasn't it in reply to them singing 'Arsene Wenger, we want you to stay' ? A good retort, which came across loudly on the telly. Was anyone else there in April 2004, when they drew level and actually thought they'd denied us winning the league?! The cheered wildly for a split second at the final whistle, but then saw our players run to our corner and realised they hadn't. Hilarious.

  30. Spaced

    Oct 14, 2013, 14:14 #40566

    Oh yeah, forgot to say... I was at WHL last season when we got done over 2-1. The spuds started slagging Wenger off, the Arsenal response: "He\'s won more than you!" Completely shut them up... the best of a bad experience.

  31. Rocky RIP

    Oct 14, 2013, 14:13 #40565

    @Edmond, let's hear that famous quote from their greatest ever goal scorer once again ...“It hurts me to say this, because I was proud to be a part of probably the greatest team in the world during my time at White Hart Lane. Yet even when we had Bill Nicholson as manager and the likes of Dave Mackay, Cliff Jones, Danny Blanchflower and myself, Spurs still lived in the shadow of Arsenal. In the early 1960s, Spurs had a great manager and a great team. But they have NEVER been a great club.” Jimmy Greaves.

  32. Spaced

    Oct 14, 2013, 14:03 #40564

    Someone on here mentioned that spurs have an inferiority complex, but I disagree. I think they have a superiority complex... they think they are far better than they actually are. Let's face it, they are now not our footballing rivals are they? They've only really come back onto the radar in the last few seasons and haven't won anything of note for many many years. The average fan was not alive when they last won the league! They're just historical rivals by proximity. The spuds are now most definitely the 3rd London club, by success, and if you go by the 'all time football club tables', they have officially amassed less top flight points than Chelsea (that must hurt so much)! - - - Maybe Arsenal supporters are partially responsible for their overestimation of themselves? Maybe because we always engage, we give them more respect than they deserve? . . . . I personally think they are still such a long way behind us. It's not a case of if they can manage to finish a season or two above us... they've got to win the league and dominate to consider themselves in the frame again. I just can't see that happening anywhere near soon (thankfully).

  33. Ron

    Oct 14, 2013, 13:39 #40563

    Afternoon BADARSE. Depends where you are i suppose matey. Ive lived in so many places since 82. In a line Taunton, then Cheltenham, then through near to Worcester and then across to Warwick, then a 3 year stop off to Leicester (soft spot for the Foxes and see them sometimes when a ticket gets offered!) back across to Banbury and then up to Derby ending up back in Worcestershire (favourite County!!). No spuds have crossed my path matey - bliss! though Southbound from London i can what your saying of course.

  34. maguiresbridge gooner

    Oct 14, 2013, 13:27 #40562

    Kev, maybe an article from yourself or Alex, on how the evening went, the discussions, questions, arguments, rewriting of history, for all of us who are unable to make it. If some of the excellent posts above Ted, Rocky RIP, Canada, Ron are anything to go by i'm sure it would generate a lot of interest.

  35. Edmond

    Oct 14, 2013, 13:20 #40561

    You're so right Rocky RIP. The praise Spuds got for winning those trophies in the early 80's was unbearable, It's like the media went into overdrive. You compare that to our cup win in 1979 when we completely outplayed Manure though all we got was how Manure would have won if it had gone to extra-time because they were in the ascendancy for the last ten minutes. The 1991 semi-final was the same too, according to the media and Spuds fans they outplayed us that day. No way. Arsenal had most of the game and the Spuds scored a few opportunist goals. I dread to think what the Spuds would have been like and the media too, if they had gone the whole season unbeaten or even had any of the success we have had under Wenger. You can also be sure that if Spurs had won the League as we did under GG in 1991, they would be saying they were the best team ever, not dismissing them as boring which is what we had to put up with. Spuds teams are the most overhyped in history followed by Manure. They even had a two hour special talking about how great a club they are on Talksport the other week.

  36. BADARSE

    Oct 14, 2013, 12:53 #40559

    Oh Ron, were that you were right. I see many Spud shirts outside their catchment area here in the south, far too many for my liking. It goes beyond a deluded father brainwashing his child, though there are quite a few of those. I am amazed that my grandson's coach is a Tottenham fan, because his previous team's manager was too, and the coach at the local gym where he attended was one also. The latter compounds the problem by giving private coaching lessons at his school. Perhaps it is their master plan, trying to damage grass roots talent?

  37. Rocky RIP

    Oct 14, 2013, 11:51 #40558

    The younger fans may dismiss any rivalry. They are lucky enough not to have been around from 1981-1984 when Spurs were actually winning cups (FA Cup 81,82 and Uefa Cup 84) and we were not. They were unbearable. The worst gloaters I've ever know. The razmataz surrounding their FA cup win in 1981 was extraordinary. The FA Cup used to be valued so much more highly back then. It was almost the one to win, and in fairness they were a good FA Cup team. They had had 7 wins in 1982, which was amongst the most, if not the most. And didn't the world (and Top of the Pops) know about it? Maybe their 'glory' is tied in with the mythical 'romance of the cup'. (I still love the FA Cup by the way and bemoan how it's been de-valued.)We went into games as underdogs sometimes. Anyone who lived through seeing how unbearable they are capable of being(backed by an adoring media) will be thankful for every season Wenger puts us above them. In 1991 the BBC were virtually besides themselves when the beat us in the semi. (Slightly muted though in 1993.) In 1995 there was talk of the 'dream final' between Man U and Tottenham?! (Thankfully, Everton killed the romance there.) Anyway, they are an occasional cup side in my opinion. One (only?) benefit of the de-valuing of the cups is that their achievements wouldn't get so overblown now.

  38. Ron

    Oct 14, 2013, 11:09 #40557

    Rocky - Very, very true about Highbury. As a few have said, Tottenham as a Club are a product of some people's and the media s florid imagination. The thing that best makes the point for me is that a huge number of modern Arsenal fans are unsure about whether to class them as a true rival. Older fans like me, do detest them, do still oddly class them as a team who its great to stuff, but also arent clear upon their rivallry status anymore and have some horrible recall of what theyre fans are like. Great swathes of, shall we say, the less desirable elements of society have always gone for them (as their location dicatates i suppose). The other point id make as some one who left London in the early 80s myself is that ive not known one person who is a true Tottenham fan in provincial areas ive lived at in all these years. Tottenham just arent on peoples radar outside their own catchment area. I dont see Tott shirts and never have either. They are in fact a small Club with grand illusions about themselves. Theyre a typical bad neighbour really, who'd love to park their car across your drive every day,poison your cat and throw weed killer on your lawn and then stick fingers up at you through their front window. They lack any idea how to start though and certainly lack the balls to do it.

  39. BADARSE

    Oct 14, 2013, 11:07 #40556

    Ron, one reason they have media friends is not that they are Tottenham fans, but they don't like Arsenal. It is a reverse psychology. Don't knee AFC in the groin, just 'big up' their neighbours. It works. It always has, throughout history, in any circumstance, and always will work. All of life is a personal perception. Is he cleverer, richer, braver? Is that good, bad, average? Easy to arrive at a general conclusion if a tangible comparison is required, but much more difficult when dealing in abstracts and personal choice. This website insists AFC are not successful, because we , (all together now media led folk), haven't won a trophy for eight years. I dispute this. My perception of success is different. Tottenham have done well to live with us. Imagine that your girlfriend's ex is constantly on the telly, and is lauded as a good guy, and a hunk. A bit hard to stomach? You bet, and they have had to live with this permanently. No wonder they are sour and bitter, it would take something more than an average Tottenham fan to adopt the necessary magnanimous disposition to overcome the angst. They live on the edge of the known world, that too is an onerous consideration, as you highlighted. Your point about Everton. For many years I would explain to the younger, Liverpool obsessed fans, that Everton were the big club in the city of Liverpool. And Liverpool were parvenus, who rode in on the back of the great Bill Shankly, and the Beatles with the 'Merseysound'. Of course the success that followed changed perceptions, and that is where I came in.

  40. Rocky RIP

    Oct 14, 2013, 10:51 #40555

    @Ron - very true about the location being a burden on them. If they had moved to the Olympic stadium they would have been a whole different proposition with a re-invented feel to them. Instead, they remain the horrible, bitter, unfriendly club from an ugly, angry part of town. Before becoming an Arsenal fan, I was taken to lots of grounds as a kid. WHL included. Not one of them captured my immediate affections like charming, warm, (relatively polite)classy Highbury. A stroll through Highbury Fields and onto the North Bank, with no fences hemming the fans in, and that was it. In love. What sort of people go to WHL and experience the same epiphany of 'here's the club for me!'? - Spurs fans I guess.

  41. Ron

    Oct 14, 2013, 10:38 #40553

    We are all liable to damned by our perceived lack of objectivity when commenting on the Totts, but do they really have any 'heritage and tradition'? I can only recall them from about 1964 ish. The had a better team than us then and used to beat us regularly. Come 1967 when is saw my 1st NLD and we beat them 4-0 at Highbury one Setpember (ill never forget it)they were the team of Gilzean, England, Jennings and Co and the tide had turned. 2 years later we were knocking them from the LC Semi s and by 74 they were down. Since then, they had the Ardilies/Villa era from say 78-82 when they played some good football and then late mid to late 80s they had the Burkinshaw years till abaout 87 ish. Again they played some decent football under him. A Cup win in 91 when the loony Gazza was in his pomp ad the smiley, chatting, con man Venables at the helm there is the last they been seen of really. I cant see that people can say that the Totts havent tried to play good football at different times the last 50/55 yaers, but thats its really. Thats their claim to fame. Nothing more. The Totts are are like Fulham to Chelsea, Birmingham are to Villa and Sheff Utd to Wednesday, Bristol R to Bristol C, perhsps even (new petro cash aside - Man C to Man Utd.I cant say Everton to Liverpool as Everton do have a fine pedigree and tradition and ca say that theyve had true parity with Liv in their history at different times and do in fact have a claim to say that its they and not Liverpool who are the aristocrats of Liverpool despite 5 EC s suggesting other wise. Theyre (Totts) are destined to be the perennial bridesmaids. Its one of these footballing certs that often cant be explained, but some times one Club is often seemingly always going to be in another nearby Clubs shadow. Sadly for the Totts, its them in North London. Credit to them though, they keep hammering away at the cultural mountain they face to seek parity and they do look to be closer now than theyve been since the early 60s. I think where they are geographically is a massive burden though. Its the back of beyond up there and its a big issue thay cant overcome. I suggest they move to Milton Keynes or maybe the Oxford area as up there they ll find a neighbour or two who they can be the towering big brother too!!Joking aside though, if the Totts werent a London Club, nobody would ever mention them in the same breath as Arsenal as a Club. Youve made points about how the media dress up and amplify whet Tottenham are. Its simple really why that happens. They have a lot of media freinds in London press circles, esp the in the papers as do West Ham. Dont know why, they just do. Maybe its Chas and Daves music!

  42. Dixon Arsene Seaman

    Oct 14, 2013, 9:41 #40552

    @Ted - spot on. They/the media manage to over-amplify whatever 'successes' they do have; whilst undermining and sweeping under the carpet a large portion of Arsenal's successes. Their run in the Champions league the other season was apparently a swashbuckling, daring adventure which entertained us all. Whenever we go out at that stage of the completion it's deemed as yet another failure. If Arsenal finish, let's say 4th and Tottenham 3rd, they'll call on a 'shift in the balance of power', despite neither winning anything. If the roles were reversed and it was them finishing above us every season since 1995 and winning doubles, reaching European cup finals, clinching the title on their ground (again) and having an unbeaten season they/the media would rub our noses in it so badly. We'd never hear the end of it. Much like the '8 year trophy drought' we never stop hearing of, but worse.

  43. Rocky RIP

    Oct 14, 2013, 9:25 #40551

    @CanadaGooner - well said. Let's just take the last 18 years. Tottenham have not finished above Arsenal in a single one of those 18 years. Not once. An 18 year old Tottenham fan will never have seen them finish above us in his/her lifetime. They've not one anything meaningful since 1991. Yet here we are and things are 'neck and neck.' They've been talking about shifts in the balance of power for years, but that's all it is - talk. Which people swallow.

  44. Ted

    Oct 14, 2013, 9:19 #40550

    By changing a bit of history here and there. In this case pretending some route one team from the sixties is on par with one of the greatest modern day total footballing sides, and using poor GG as a scape goat who in my opinion's teams were far better than anything Totts have ever come out with. By forgetting 90% of Arsenal's history and putting a microscope over Tottenham's achievements and blowing them up into what they're not, is like telling a man that my Ford Capri is on par with his Rolls Royce.

  45. CanadaGooner

    Oct 14, 2013, 8:22 #40549

    Kev - I was really hoping some other article will be on here, so I dont have to use up my Monday morning onlinegooner slot to talk about Tottenham. "both clubs are now neck-and-neck"? are you really serious??? Spurs will need to finish ahead of Arsenal in the league for the next 16 consecutive seasons (i.e. from now till 2030!) for them to be neck-and-neck with us. Yes, they are buying players (what's new?) and show some flair every now and again, but you can MARK MY WORDS again this season (same words as I uttered when we were 13 points behind Spurs couple of seasons back, with a handful of games to go...), Spurs will soon go on their buckling, spluttering run and will fail to get in the Top 4 again this season.

  46. Edmond

    Oct 13, 2013, 21:28 #40546

    Do you think in 2061 when Spurs have gone 100 years since winning the title they will hold street parties celebrating those hoof merchants of 1961.

  47. Dixon Arsene Seaman

    Oct 13, 2013, 17:35 #40544

    Oh great. Another award-winning bell-end pretending to be an Arsenal fan under the cunningly-veiled disguise of 'Finsbury', talking drivel on Online Gooner. Can't you moan on your own site about how 1961 was 52 years ago now, and no big cups since 1991? Stop polluting this site. Bore off.

  48. Rock RIP

    Oct 13, 2013, 17:19 #40543

    @Finsbury Joe - The idea that players who had their transfer value increased by extraordinary amounts did so as a result of their own motivation rather than the coaching is laughable and frankly insulting. The fact that players left us (for better money or greater chance of success) doesn't detract from how their careers were developed at Arsenal. That's a whole separate argument and they have a point questioning the club's ambition. The only decent example you give is Arshavin, the rest hardly went backwards. The list of players we have developed is very long and far outstrips your laughable 'taking players backwards' drivel. Anelka - a relative unknown kid bought for half a million, developed into a player Real Madrid saw fit to pay 23 million pounds for, (which funded Arsenal's state of the art training complex, leaving THFC way behind.) Just one of many players in a list which includes RVP, Cesc Fabregas, Patrick Vieira, Robert Pires, Ashley Cole and Thierry Henry. All developed into world class talents at Arsenal. (And don't claim they were already recognised as such when they arrived, because none of them were.)Not all players have worked out. We've had some proper duds in recent years, but to say they all inevitably go backwards as players because of the coaching is utter sh!te.

  49. BADARSE

    Oct 13, 2013, 17:13 #40542

    OK, buddy. Now take it easy, you don't wanna jump do ya? Sure, sure, I know life gets rough bub. Settle a little fella. Tell me about it, I'm a good listener. You what? Oh, jeez! Really? OK, now just relax a shade there. I know just what you mean, it is depressing, in fact it's getting to me too. So what happened then, after you planned that? Yeah, I know it is painful. Steady! Come away from the edge! It isn't the end of the world. Life is full of disappointments. Yes it's true you've had more of your share. Oh hell, that's bad, oh how do you cope? All those early promises dashed. It's a grim picture you paint buddy. Oh what the hell, move over, I'm coming with you.

  50. Westlower

    Oct 13, 2013, 17:00 #40541

    Finsbury Joe, Did you previously post as Canada Gooner? It's increasingly difficult to distinguish between the Arsenal pessimists & desperate Spurs supporters!

  51. The Soothsayer

    Oct 13, 2013, 15:42 #40540

    Finsbury Joe. Yeah I heard that to about the European Super League. Apparently Arsenal, Chavs and Manure are getting passed over while Spuds Villa and Newcastle are getting the invite.

  52. Eddie

    Oct 13, 2013, 15:24 #40539

    Three reasons why Finsbury Joe was easily rumbled.1.He claims to come from Finsbury Park yet lives in a house full of spuds. About as likely as Pope Gregory the Ninth getting invited round Oliver Cromwell's for Christmas dinner.2 He's called Joseph and 3.Not even the most pessimistic Arsenal fan could be so delusional as to believe spuds will move away from Arsenal in 3 years.

  53. Finsbury Joe

    Oct 13, 2013, 15:15 #40538

    Mr Rocky RIP, taking players backwards, please take Vermaelen, Arshavin, Walcott, Ox, Gervinho, Podolski, Szchesney...dare I even mention Jack Wilshere as recent examples... just for starters. We can all see the coaching is not up to scratch. I know you will throw at me a collection of highly talented motivated individuals that saw the limitations of the coaching, worked their butts off, and left to win things, as some of the current crop will inevitably do. But back to Arsenal, I recently saw a blog that scared me just a little for our future. It is on the respected footballisfixed blog, check out the Fri 11 Oct entry. It is all about the impending Euro super league, that now looks like it will come to pass sooner than expected. See the list of teams already at the top table, Tottenham are one of the blacked out names (Spurs) already in discussion, Baldini was apparently bought in to get them there. You will scroll down and see Arsenal as one of the teams waiting to be invited. And for all I know, they may well make it, but strikes me as Arsenal being proactive... as usual. But maybe Tottenham will leap ahead of us, and in doing so right a 100 year wrong? Ambition.

  54. Dixon Arsene Seaman

    Oct 13, 2013, 14:40 #40537

    @Bazooka Joe - 'I can see why Tottenham fans are convinced we spend all our time talking about their team' - we may talk about their vile club, their bullying cowards for fans and the cesspit they inhabit, but we've little to no interest in their team. Whatsoever. None. I've never discussed a single player of theirs since Bale jumped ship. You talk as if Tottenham have already successfully pulled off the re-building of a new stadium. Role models in how to execute it all. Who was it that won all those plaudits for delivering a 60,000 stadium on time, on budget and 500 yards from their previous stadium? Oh that was Arsenal. Some of the commercial deals could have been better with hindsight, but hardly a shoddy job of moving stadium. Still, let's look to Tottenham and learn.

  55. Gunner SA

    Oct 13, 2013, 14:30 #40535

    Am working dammit!! Will Mr Fynn also be explaining why Tottenham hasn't won the league in 52 years and has never played in a European Cup Final? Lol!

  56. jeff wright

    Oct 13, 2013, 14:27 #40533

    Hey Joe, where are going with that salt-beef sandwich in your hand... the spuds could never be accused of tribal parochialism of course... your rant is so ott that it's actually amusing..

  57. Rocky RIP

    Oct 13, 2013, 14:27 #40534

    @Finsbury Joe - I almost believed you for a moment, then pissed myself laughing. 'Arsenal invariable take players backwards' - examples please to back up your argument. I guarantee I can more than match any examples you give with examples of how we've developed average players into good players, good players into world class players, etc. If you can't recognise how Arsenal have developed players then you really haven't a clue. 'AVB's advanced style of play' - what codswallop! Mr Arsenal? Yeah, right.

  58. Eddie

    Oct 13, 2013, 14:19 #40532

    Hands up all those who believe Finsbury Joseph is a Gooner? As I expected,no takers.

  59. Finsbury Joe

    Oct 13, 2013, 14:05 #40531

    Looking at all this, I can see why Tottenham fans are convinced we spend all our time talking about their team. I am an old school fan who has moved away from the petty tribalism that tourists love so much and I am prepared to give credit where it is due. Tottenham will soon begin work on the new stadium, they have waited for much better commercials than Arsenal, they have hired the finest financial brains, not Old Etonian idiots and will not do anything stupid like the Emirates bond issue. Tottenham, in stark contrast to Arsenal are a best in practice club, a modern accountable manager and DoF, coaches with tactical awareness, best in class medical facilities and fitness coaches - just compare and contrast our injury records. Tottenham may sometimes lose their best players, but use all the money and more to strengthen, as they did last summer. I could only stand back and applaud as they took Verthongen and Holtby off ourr hands as Wenger dithered. Arsenal...well, the less said the better. Tottenham have proper coaching, that develops the likes of Modric, Bale and Townsend for starters, Arsenal invariable take players backwards due to Wengers failings and stubborness. Yes, Ivan Gazidis and Lord French Fries may have over ruled their boss and overpaid for a technically excellent German midget but that will do little to improve the team, or a divided fanbase. Tottenham are a team in rapid progress, they will suffer the odd glitch as they come to terms with AVBs advanced style of play, but mark my words, and how it pains me to say this, they will soon move away from Arsenal ,within 3 years, they will be over the horizon, the reason, ambition, and I,despite being known as Mr Arsenal in an old red half of North London family will be the first to congratulate them, nothing does it for me like naked ambition.

  60. Rocky RIP

    Oct 13, 2013, 13:32 #40529

    It was Harry Harris (Tottenham fan) in The Mirror who put that picture out with our captain wearing donkeys ears. That didn't cause others to join in too much, did it? Mihir Bose (Tottenham fan) tried his damndest to undermine Arsenal's attempts to build a new stadium. It started off as a financial and logistical nightmare, but once it was all underway it ended up with their fans telling each other 'they won't be able to fill it.' Wasn't he also once producer of MOTD which co-incided with Arsenal games being relegated down the pecking order and bastardised highlights and messages in Gary's ear to mention 'x' and 'y'? Who was it that peddled the vile rumours about Wenger being a paedophile? Caesar the geezer? (who ended up in prison) Harris? Some of the more angrier fans amongst them still actually use it as an insult. Why do so many have nasal problems? Think Shreeves. They love a wide boy crook in charge and for me, Paul Kemsley best typifies the fabric of that club. Vile. PS. It's 1-1 at Newcastle (wink).

  61. BADARSE

    Oct 13, 2013, 11:52 #40527

    Come! Please enter and sit. Now little one, unburden. Yes, I understand all of what you say. It is a stony pathway you tread. You must raise your eye line, yet lower your sights. Comparing yourself to a greater force will create an imbalance in your soul. You will be destined to struggle with this throughout eternity. You have to let go. It is like a fruitless attempt to catch the wind, and that is not your realm, do not make it your destiny. We are all very small, some are smaller than others, it is the way, accept the recognition. Empty your head. Yes, I know it is quite empty, try a little harder. Now a sombre release beckons. You are, as you are, it is, as it is. If not contentment I bring, at least let the dissatisfaction drift away from you, up into the ether. Be yourself. Continue to strive, but introduce realism into your aspirations. Be calm Grasshopper, all will be well.

  62. Westlower

    Oct 13, 2013, 11:11 #40525

    League Division 1 Champions; Spurs 2 Arsenal 10. Premier League Champions; Spurs 0 Arsenal 3. Double winners; Spurs 1 Arsenal 3. FA Cup winners; Spurs 8 Arsenal 10. History proves that Spurs are a 'big club' but the above results show Arsenal are a class above them and always will be! Spurs have an inferiority complex to overcome borne of years of always coming off second best. Long may it continue.

  63. BADARSE

    Oct 13, 2013, 9:51 #40524

    Sorry, what was that? Oh, indeed? And who are these Lilywhites? Really? Where precisely do they play? And where exactly is that? Mmm, can't say I've heard of them, nor am I likely to again, I suspect. Still, not to worry. Next! Ahh, who have we here? Bedford Town? Aah yes, now I have heard of you little chappies.

  64. Eddie

    Oct 13, 2013, 9:46 #40523

    Spurs put forward the propaganda that Chapman's and Whittacker's teams were lucky. That Mee's and Grahams teams were boring. That Wengers teams cheated. They also fooled people that their team of 61 were the greatest and played the best football ever,the truth is they were no better than Stoke under Tony Pullis with a few flares.

  65. Rocky RIP

    Oct 13, 2013, 0:47 #40522

    Blame Henry Norris and convince people who haven't researched the facts that they were stitched up. Claim to be in North London before Arsenal, despite being officially in Middlesex until 1965. Blame the lasagne. Why is it widely accepted that the lasagne cost them a place in the champions league?? Daniel Levy called in the police to officially investigate the Marriott Hotel and threatened to sue the hotel chain and Premier League over the incident, having wrongly suspected foul play. HOWEVER, tests by the Health Protection Agency on the food at the hotel soon proved to be negative for sources of food poisoning, and instead players were identified as having norovirus. Still, blame David Dein. They claim to have the better squad at the start of many a season and get tipped to finish above Arsenal, but then complain that it isn't a level playing field in terms of resources if they fall away in March. They claim that only two Arsenal players would make a combined 11, then get soundly thrashed 5-2. They've even convinced themselves Arsenal had similar tax payer funding for the new stadium that they look set to receive.

  66. Canterbury Gooner

    Oct 12, 2013, 23:58 #40521

    “I’m not going to win many friends at Spurs by saying Arsenal are my idea of a football club. In many ways the perfect club. Many of the principles that have been the hallmark of successful football through the years were refined at Arsenal. It pains me to say it but Bill Nicholson borrowed freely from his rivals when he was putting together his great Spurs side.”....... “Arsenal have class. I remember when I was at Spurs, the Arsenal players would arrive for matches in their navy blazers with the gold gun emblem sewn into their pockets and grey slacks. We couldn’t match their ground with that beautiful main entrance, marble halls and spiral staircase. Even in 1961 when we won the Double, we were never as big a club as Arsenal.”..... “In the early 1960s, Spurs had a great manager and a great team. But they have never been a great club. Even when we had Bill Nicholson as manager and the likes of Dave Mackay, Cliff Jones, Danny Blanchflower and myself, Spurs still lived in the shadow of Arsenal.” All quotes from Jimmy Greaves between 1994 and 2007.

  67. Glory Glory Years

    Oct 12, 2013, 23:24 #40520

    The Glory Glory Years are special years only known by a secretive few. They exist though only in the minds of those who have been chosen to know. Those years are far more glorious than anything any other team has experienced and as Spurs fans we are forever talking about them although never revealing to anybody when or what they are.This Glory that is spoken of is so glorious that it cannot be viewed with the naked eye touched by the hand or heard by the ear.

  68. BADARSE

    Oct 12, 2013, 20:28 #40519

    Couldn't let the opportunity pass without a mention of one man. Probably the most skilful Tott ever. Johnny White, who wore the number eight shirt with distinction at WHL. He was a skilful inside forward, a playmaker. His skill was equal to half a dozen of his teammates. A Scot, seemingly quiet and unassuming. His nickname was 'the ghost'. Sadly he was struck by lightening on a golf course in 1964, and died instantly. Now if you have time I will list Arsenal greats who were on a par with him, then if you are still awake I will name all those Big Guns who were better...

  69. The Walter Mitty's of Football

    Oct 12, 2013, 19:57 #40517

    Spurs don't make dreams come true like The Arsenal. What they do have is they have the best PR SPIN MACHINE in the history of football which is so good it fools not only the general football fan but a lot of Gooners and ex Arsenal players too. By keep repeating the same old made up hogwash they have fooled people by pretending to be what they are not, even exalting themselves over The Arsenal. They are and always will be the Walter Mitty's of English Football and whatever they say should never be believed as look closely into their history and you will see they are no different to a Blackburn Rovers or a Stoke City. If it wasn't for Arsenal nobody would even mention them, the majority of older fans (except Badarse and Ted) believes the Spurs ****e they spew, but the modern Gooners see through them for what they are a two bob outfit from Middlesex.

  70. jeff wright

    Oct 12, 2013, 19:55 #40516

    Bard I share some of your doubts regarding Arsene - even though we were said to be in title wining form his team selections and tactics v West Brom were those of a manager putting out a side to try and avoid losing - rather than to go all out for a win. I'm not convinced that he will carry on making marquee type signing either . He sill looks to be obsessed with his young players development ideas and signing too many older top players is incompatible with that. He's told us this enough times- and I actually believe him ! Regarding the spuds - I thankfully missed their double season heroics - but had to put up with hearing about it later on in the late 60s and early 70s. I was pleased when Bertie got that monkey off our backs. I actually knew Bobby Smith the ex-Tottenham centre-forward he lived next door to a girl friend of mine in 1974 in Palmers Green - he was a compulsive gambler and heavy drinker. He once told me that him and Greaves used to have a few nips of Scotch before they went out to play. I didn't . think tbh that it sounded unlikely. This rewriting of Tottenham history on here has descended into some sort of nostalgic love-in. My experience of the spuds supporters however says that it is unlikely to be reciprocated on their part.

  71. The glory nights are returning to the lane

    Oct 12, 2013, 19:18 #40515

    It's hilarious how the have-a-go heroes, daring to dream manage to re-write history. The talk of Bale's swash-buckling, cavalier performance in the san siro as a success - they lost 4-3. They brought out a DVD of a 4-4 draw v Arsenal. One Spurs fan actually said in an exchange after the match - you can't handle losing, can you? 4-4 became a victory. I've never had a sensible answer to the question: when exactly were the glory years? Even if it's 'glory year' I'm happen to listen.

  72. Green Hut

    Oct 12, 2013, 19:09 #40514

    Dave- History? You mean the kind of history that tells you that we won 6 titles before tottenham won their first (of just 2, level with Derby and Portsmouth, one behind the mighty Huddersfield)? The kind of history that tells you that Chelsea were the worst European champions of all time? Outplayed in the quarters, semis and final, worst ever result in the Super Cup and first champions ever not to qualify from the group stage, all for a measly £800m. That kind of history?

  73. Eddie

    Oct 12, 2013, 19:06 #40513

    Tottenham Hotstoke were the greatest team ever in the early 60's.zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.Wenger is so lucky to be mentioned in the same breath as them. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Arsenal only ever won 1-0 under George Graham.zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. We are now playing catch up on the Spuds.zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Sounds like an evening full of cli-che's

  74. Dixon Arsene Seaman

    Oct 12, 2013, 18:58 #40512

    Ray Parlour has more league championship winner's medals than Tottenham have in their entire history. Arsenal have clinched the title at White Hart Lane more times than Tottenham have. They are the masters at re-inventing history in their favour on and off the pitch. (When they realised nobody could verify 'results' they created an mythical 'uber firm', which people swallowed.) Forever in our shadow.

  75. Bard

    Oct 12, 2013, 18:55 #40511

    Jeff Wright; I'm with you on this one Jeff. I dont think Tottenham are relevant other than they live up the road. They have done nothing of worth since 61'. They are not worth bothering about. The more pressing issues are with our own club and the fact that Wenger seems to have lost his touch in the transfer market ( Ozil is world class so no risk there) and has presided over nearly a decade of mediocrity. Can he turn it around? I hope so but not convinced at the moment.

  76. BADARSE

    Oct 12, 2013, 18:36 #40510

    Ted, thank you for the glowing commendation, am not sure I deserve it, but I do try to see through the frosted glass which life usually offers. I think an achievement puts a gloss on a team, and rightly so, but I also think it can obliterate those who don't quite hit a target. It also papers over any shortcomings because, 'they have done it!' Our Invincibles were magnificent, we all walk a little taller since May 2004. However our boys in '91 were also magnificent, and only just missed the tag of Invincible. We talk of one and not the other. Had Tottenham slipped up against Leicester City in 1961 we wouldn't revere their memory. For any unaware Len Chalmers broke his leg after a quarter of an hour or so. In an era before subs Leicester played on a cramp inducing Wembley turf, with ten men for the lion's share of the game. At that point the double was almost a given. Jimmy Greaves was the best of the best at what he did, arriving after the double. He was a poacher supreme, but his skill was wonderful too. I would be insulting him if I compared him to Owen. Football suddenly changed leading up to '66, and a support partner for Hurst's height and heading ability went to Hunt, Greaves couldn't have complemented Hurst in the same way. He hit the bottle too, and that wouldn't have pleased Alf Ramsey, so whatever the reason he didn't figure. Tottenham did the double in 1961, and no one can take that honour away from them.

  77. Ted

    Oct 12, 2013, 17:42 #40508

    Dave,What you have said I have heard a thousand times, people tend to repeat what everybody else says and Arsenal fans and players of the past in particular have often lauded the sixties Spurs teams with praise because as the saying goes. 'It's the thing to do' as it makes them look very humble in praising up the opposition. I'm not saying that Spurs weren't effective and good at what they did and I admit to being 4 years out on Joe Kinnear. Though the Spurs of the 1960's although a better results machine than Arsenal were no way attractive or better on the eye and I think Badarse summed them up perfectly and he seems to me to be someone who is not easily fooled either.

  78. buggleskelly

    Oct 12, 2013, 17:31 #40507

    I attended a school just north of Finsbury Park in the sixties, where the boys were either Arsenal or Tottenham. Like Dave's late father, though a Gunner, every other week I went to WHL with my mates who happened to be Spuds. The main reason I enjoyed going was just to watch Jimmy Greaves play. Even at this distance in time, 50 years on, I can tell you that Jimmy Greaves remains the greatest England striker ever - a simply wonderful player, with pace, unbelievable ball control and two great feet - a brilliant finisher. Made Michael Owen look like Ray Hankin. I will never ever forgive Alf Ramsey for dropping him from the World Cup Final team of 1966. Everybody assumes that it was Geoff Hurst who replaced Greaves for that match, but it should have been that complete carthorse Roger Hunt who was discarded.

  79. Steve

    Oct 12, 2013, 17:19 #40506

    People blame the new stadium for the demise of Arsenal for the last 8 years.Thats an easy excuse.They are wrong.The blame is Romans billions and Mourinho.Between 98-04 we competed with United no problem although they had a stadium twice our size but we were stll signing quality players.But we were blown out of the water by the new Chelsea who have won 10 trophies since we last won one.In 2005 the Mourinho team won the title with more points than even the Invincibles the previous season.The only bright spot was Roman wanted to buy Spurs first before Chelsea.The promblem is we have an owner who runs the club on self-sufficiency.Yes we spent £42m on Ozil but not a penny on anyone else.

  80. Dave

    Oct 12, 2013, 16:53 #40505

    @Ted Kinnear made his debut in 1966 so played a while after the 61 season.The great Bob Wilson and Frank McLintock have both said the greatest team they ever saw was the Spurs double team in 61.My late father although an Arsenal fan used to go to Arsenal one week and Spurs the next and he used to tell me Arsenal in the late 50's and the 60's were dire.All through the 60's and early 80's under Burkinshaw the Spuds were a better team than us.It was only the appointment of GG that changed it all around.And the rest as they say is history.We may hate the Spuds but they were the first team last century to win the double and to win a European trophy just like the Chavs were the first London teanm to win the European cup.We cant change history

  81. Ted

    Oct 12, 2013, 16:51 #40504

    Badarse, You gave an excellent analysis of the Spurs team. I don't mind giving other teams there dues but I've never been one for camouflaging history just to tickle the ears of a few rival supporters. George Swindon's Arsenal of 58/59 were a far better footballing team than the Spurs team of 60/61, beautiful short and long passes all over the pitch,Danny Clapton gave them that spark. Spurs if I remember were given a footballing lesson 4-1 at the Lane that season. Sadly they went seven games without a win near the end of the season and came in third which sadly means they are forgotten, bar in the head of a few oldies.

  82. BADARSE

    Oct 12, 2013, 16:03 #40503

    @ Ted and westlower. I saw the Tottenham Double side of '61, and they were efficient and direct. They garnered huge self belief and also had a standing, psychologically, which I feel certainly acted positively in their favour against other sides. Bobby Smith their CF, also England's, was all about presence. He bullied and blustered his way through the middle. I think Giroud has much more skill, and don't get me comparing him to Big Raddy. I think their FB's were a good pair, but Dixon and Winterburn they were not. Mackay drove them on admirably, but Bill Brown in goal was no more than a good First Division keeper; he would have stood in Kelsey's shadow. Cliff Jones was a flier, but it was all about getting the ball forward, him outrunning a full back and crossing the ball. A simple remit in those days for a wide man, though am sure Theo couldn't master it! They were a good side in their day, which really was over a couple of years or so. Double '61, FA Cup '62 and a flimsy ECWC in '63. Then gone! People try to rewrite history so often.

  83. Eddie

    Oct 12, 2013, 14:51 #40501

    'Wenger seemingly lost his innovator's touch'.'Tottenham recently rediscover their heritage and tradition'. You couldn't make this stuff up. If we are going to compare us with another club then it should be with Manchester United or even Liverpool not with the Tiny Totts.

  84. jeff wright

    Oct 12, 2013, 13:14 #40500

    Considering the past huge difference in wage bills between us and Tottenham ( near £60m last season )we should have done better under Wenger than what we have done. Wenger's made life difficult for himself by his own poor judgements in awarding huge wages to average players , while resisting, for reasons of his own ,paying top class ones the going rate. Bendtner is one example , he may do it for Denmark , but he doesn't bring home the bacon for us. I'm not convinced that Levy is shrewd or that Tottenham are the big threat under AVB that some claim - let's see how they fare against the top clubs this season - Wenger in my view has been under-achieving given the resources that he has had available to him and this has allowed Tottenham to close the gap on us in the league in recent seasons . I'm not convinced that Wenger he is about to change either the much vaunted Ozil signing was forced on to him by circumstances. Left to his own devices he would have signed another £10m French player from Newcastle if he had been able to do so. Wiltord years back was his record signing - and it was nine years before he broke that record. Wenger is a very stubborn man who is more motivated by trying to prove himself right than he is about anything else.

  85. Westlower

    Oct 12, 2013, 12:04 #40497

    Ted, I only saw Spurs play once at WHL in their double season when they beat AFC 4-2. My memory is a bit vague as it was the first top class game I attended. AFC were ravaged by injuries and we played with 5 reserves, nothing changes there then? The Arsenal players of the time that I remember were Joe Haverty, David Herd, Jack Kelsey, Len Wills, Billy McCullough, Bill Dodgin, Danny Clapton, Jackie Henderson, John Barnwell, Gerry Ward, Tommy Docherty, John Snedden & Vic Groves. Of the Spurs double winning side only Dave Mackay & Cliff Jones made an impression on me. I saw Spurs again the following season when Leicester, inspired by a young Frank McLintock destroyed them 3-2 at the Lane, Frank scoring twice. It was blatantly obvious that Frank was far superior to anybody else on the field. Anyway that was the opinion I formed at my tender age of 14. I was overjoyed when he joined AFC shortly afterwards, arguably the greatest signing in Arsenal's history. For me Frank holding aloft the European Fairs Cup still represents the greatest moment in Arsenal's history. For me, it even surpassed being at the Lane in 71, because it was the first trophy in 17 barren years. It was worth the wait!

  86. Ted

    Oct 12, 2013, 11:12 #40494

    I've said it before on here and I'll say it again Spurs were not a great team to watch under Bill Nicholson take it from someone who was there. In fact when people debate the histories of football clubs a lot gets lost in what people want to believe to fit their romantic ideologies. I would also say that GG's team played far more football than BN,s. Spurs played.The push and run which had already been adopted by other English teams was adopted under Arthur Rowe at the start of the 1950's and was only used for a couple of seasons, Tom Whittakers Arsenal side employed similar tactics just after the war in 1947/48.The Spurs team of 1960/61 and onwards under Bill Nicholson were all about getting the ball forward as quick as possible in fact Joe Kinnear who played for them at the time has often been quoted as saying he modelled his Wimbledon sides of the 1980's on the Spurs team he played for. It really annoys me when people try and make Spurs into a side equalling of Arsenal look closely at their history and you will see it is all spin.

  87. Ian

    Oct 12, 2013, 10:11 #40493

    Arsenal should be above Spurs are wage bill is £50m more than there's.One thing Spurs can learn from Arsenal is the allocating of seats in their new stadium.The lack of any atomosphere at the concrete bowl is down to having no allocated standing and singing areas.The one thing i would swap is Gazidis for Levy.No way would Arsenal get as little for Cesc and RVP under Levy.£85m for Bale a masterstroke

  88. Gary Fox

    Oct 12, 2013, 9:52 #40491

    Spurs have learnt from Arsenal and the new ground will not be as big a burden at the Emirates was to Arsenal. What is remarkable is that Spurs have been so close to Arsenal over the last few years, not that Arsenal have done so well in staying in 4th spot so often. With the financial resources Arsenal have they should be challenging for the title and the Champions League not scraping into 4th. Spurs were unlucky 3 times in recent years in not qualifying. Food poisoning one year, a flukey Chelsea victory denying the 4th placed team a place and a very dodgy WBA goalkeeping display on the final day gifting 4th place in another. Last season it came down to the final day as well. 4 nail biting finishes. Arsenal should not have to rely on such close finishes. Eventually the tables will turn and the knives will be out for Wenger.

  89. BADARSE

    Oct 12, 2013, 9:30 #40490

    The synopsis is very true, as detailed here. A major stumbling block beyond the obvious disparity between stadia, is the difficulty in finding WHL, or even wanting to go to that area-it is 'outside' London. The vibrancy of Islington is a selling factor over and above football. You still feel connected to the 'bright lights'. The 'new?!!?' stadium is a heck of a gamble but one that ambitious teams need to pursue. It is an undertaking of gargantuan dimensions, which could make or break their future. I still hold the view that many will never give credence to the magnificent operation Arsenal pulled off, in building the Grove, nor the incredible masterstroke of Arsene Wenger keeping AFC in the mix throughout. This new ground could prove their nemesis. Thank you for the info Kev.

  90. underacheiver

    Oct 12, 2013, 9:08 #40489

    thank's for the update tottingham tim

  91. Tim

    Oct 12, 2013, 8:36 #40486

    just to add some meat on the bones for off the field matters; Spurs have the benefit of two training grounds - the well known Spurs Lodge and the recently built Hotspur Way, which has been declared by many observers as the best football training facility in Europe by some distance. Also it is understood although not officially confirmed that work on the new WHL will begin next summer. A revised capacity of 61k is expected and the ambitions for the nature of its construction can be seen in the star quality shown in building Hotspur Way - the new stadium is expected to set a new benchmark both home and abroad...

  92. Westlower

    Oct 12, 2013, 8:22 #40485

    AFC have stolen a march by building a new stadium and can therefore concentrate all efforts on further developing a world class team. Spurs have made a final fling to cling on to our coat tails with a frenzy of buying in the transfer market this summer. Even if they should reach the top 4 this year they still have to address their ground improvement or move to a new location. This will sap their resources and divide their focus between improving the team and building a new ground. AFC have come through the 8 year pain of moving home and we are still ahead of our ambitious neighbours. The Totts have missed a wonderful opportunity to be top dog in North London. This is AW's greatest legacy! Final thought from last nights games, what price Bendtner now? Two more goals taking his International tally to 24 goals from 56 appearances. Not a bad striker to have on the bench.