Reality Check

Online Ed: Dortmund defeat Gunners



Reality Check


Dortmund were always likely to be Arsenal’s toughest opponents in a Champions League group that is far trickier than those Wenger’s team have faced in recent seasons. Their visit last night did not compare with that of Bayern Munich in February when a football lesson was administered. Arsenal are currently a far better outfit. However, naivety cost them dear on the big stage.

Dortmund’s first goal was wholly avoidable. Aaron Ramsey being caught in possession on the edge of his own box is the kind of cardinal sin you might get away with against a lower half Premier League team, but not in the Champions League against last season’s finalists. Arsenal were not able to get the roaring start they did against Napoli for the simple reason that the visitors had the nous to take the wind out of their sails by controlling the game in the opening period. Arsenal were not at the races, against a better team than they have faced all season.

It took a Dortmund goal to awaken them and they started to play. Rosicky was unlucky not to score before Giroud netted the equalizer. Games at this level are all about spells, and making the most of things when you are on top. Essentially seizing the moment. Top quality strikers can do this, and Giroud is looking like one this season. The ball in from Sagna was delicious. Kieran Gibbs’ crossing on the night was noticeably inferior by contrast. Arsenal’s full backs are crucial to their attacking play when space in the centre is constrained, as it often was by Dortmund’s busy midfielders.

Arsene Wenger acknowledged after the game that the team wanted the win too badly, which led to the counter attack and the second Dortmund goal. I wonder if it might have been prevented had Mathieu Flamini been fit to play? I haven’t seen the TV replays to see who was left upfield as Dortmund stormed forward, perhaps Flamini would have made no difference.

The game was a narrow one, and it could have gone either way. Ultimately Dortmund showed greater composure and experience. They did not have many opportunities, but critically, took enough of the ones they did. Had Cazorla’s effort that hit the bar been a bit lower we may all be in a different mood this morning.

Aaron Ramsey had his least influential game for a while, but he was due an off day. This is a youngster not a machine and it would be churlish to knock him too much for the concession of the first goal. It will hopefully provide a lesson that avoids a repeat.

The formation in the second half after Cazorla replaced Wilshere seemed to be 2-4-3-1, with the full backs pushing on, Arteta holding, Ramsey and Rosicky advanced central and Ozil and Cazorla pushed wide. It certainly seemed to invite the decisive counter attack that resulted in the winning goal.

It was a fascinating enjoyable game in terms of the football played. Top level stuff with Arsenal having to do something a little extra to get any reward. They tried manfully and produced some fine moments. The defeat isn’t the end of the world and I would be disappointed if it adversely affected the players in the coming matches. Wenger is of the view that an away win will be required from the two remaining trips in this group for progress to be secured. With Marseille looking like the whipping boys, this could be true. And Arsenal are capable of getting such a result. Some of their football this season has been of the requisite quality to get a win in either Germany or Italy, although the latter does look more plausible. And of course, you never know if Marseille might pluck something out of the bag and take points off someone.

However, what the players need to remember is some of the result football they played on the run-in to fourth place last season. They started with a basis of not losing (critically not conceding), which provided the platform to work from. To an extent, the team may have got too carried away last night by their good run of form, and gone for the kill against a side they could not afford to take risks against. Arsenal have ambitions to catch up with Bayern Munich. First, they must become good enough to match Borussia Dortmund, a team far more like the finished article than the current Gunners line-up. This Arsenal is a work in progress, perhaps over-reliant on certain individuals in a way that maybe Dortmund or Bayern are not. Hopefully the lessons of last night will be taken on board and we will witness the consequences between now and the end of the group stage.

The current issue of The Gooner (with exclusive material unavailable elsewhere) can be bought online here. A new one goes on sale this Saturday at the Palace away match.

DIGITAL ISSUES
The Gooner is also available in digital form, through The Gooner App on iPhones and iPads, the Exactly App for Android devices and now Kindle Fire owners can also get their fix by searching the Amazon App Store for The Gooner.

You can also subscribe at www.exacteditions.com and read it through your internet browser as well as receiving a code which will enable you to access issues on all the above devices.

All digital subscriptions include access to our digital back issue library which dates back to August 2010.


NEW! Subscribe to our weekly Gooner Fanzine newsletter for all the latest news, views, and videos from the intelligent voice of Arsenal supporters since 1987.

Please note that we will not share your email address with any 3rd parties.


Article Rating

Leave a comment

Sign-in with your Online Gooner forum login to add your comment. If you do not have a login register here.

68
comments

  1. anti-wenger

    Oct 27, 2013, 12:25 #40925

    I'm not criticizing Arsene on this one. The team showed bravery to try and win in the 2nd half, against one of the top 3 sides in the world. Benefit of hindsight can allow some people to call it naivety, but the same people would have called the team cowards or gutless, if they simply played to get a draw in a home game, especially considering they had Dortmund against the ropes for most of the 2nd half.It was a risk worth taking, that it didn't pay off doesn't make it bad.

  2. Oversear

    Oct 24, 2013, 20:24 #40871

    I wouldn't take too much notice of Babatunde, he's been banned numerous times from the main forum, something to do with his love of everything Tiny Tottehoof, he hates Arsenal with a vengeance.

  3. Ron

    Oct 24, 2013, 16:59 #40866

    Unchives - With all due respect fella, youre quoted as saying that 'we re better than Napoli and Dortmund' somewhere. How does that sit with you now saying that theres 'no sound decision making' from the bench? If we re really 'better' than those teams despite pi-s poor or non existant decsion making, surely that lets Wenger off the hook by your definition? Heres the truth - Wenger is and always has been tactically moribund. Benitez has always been far better at tactics than most coaches and Klopp is too. Napoli wont get caught sleeping in Italy as they were at Arsenal and Wengers idiocy last night is all Klopp will need to keep his foot firmly on Wengers neck in Dortmund. Only large doses of lady luck or freakishly bad performances from the two mai rival teams coinciding with the other games can get us through that group now in my view.

  4. maguiresbridge gooner

    Oct 24, 2013, 14:58 #40861

    Unchives, your right but that's been happening for years now and still is where OGL is concerned, it's always somebody else's fault.

  5. Unchives

    Oct 24, 2013, 10:02 #40849

    The Decision making is the Managers responsibility.To pass the blame onto the players under the guise of naivety is ridiculous. This is where Arsene falls short, no decisive decision making from the bench. Man Utd, Liverpool & Chelsea to come.....have we learnt our lesson yet again, or does the November Car crash begin to manifest already.

  6. Westlower

    Oct 24, 2013, 8:44 #40846

    John Gooner, It's a fine line between being negative and tactically astute. I'm not comparing Stoke with BD, as they're light years apart, just highlighting that it's a simple solution for a coach to let the other team make the running. I don't doubt that AFC will play on the break in Dortmund. If any of Rosicky, Ramsey or Cazorla efforts had gone in, BD would have been labelled negative & lacking belief. If both teams sit back most games would end in mind numbing low scoring affairs. On the night BD got away with it. There is still a lot of improvement to come from AFC when we're able to select a better balanced team. You say we don't play good football but when were you last bored watching Arsenal? Personally I'd have to go back to GG's last season.

  7. John Gooner

    Oct 24, 2013, 8:16 #40842

    Westlower - We don't play good football anymore! Football like the Norwich game has become the exception rather than the norm. The sterile 'pass it around the opposition box until we give it up' style is the Arsenal way now. You clearly don't watch much football if you think Dortmund play like Stoke! I would invite you to watch Dortmund play more often, then perhaps you can educate yourself on the difference between negative football and tactical awareness.

  8. Westlower

    Oct 24, 2013, 7:29 #40841

    Babatunde, Why am I not surprised you've seen Welbeck outshine Rooney. You have the anti-Arsenal mentality of a Man U supporter. While I consider Klopp to be a good coach, though not a genius, I'm afraid the English media would rip him to pieces. Herr Klopp would quickly become a joke figure with his touch line tantrums. Not hard to imagine the Sun headlines, Flop Klopp, Drop Klopp, Klipp Klopp the donkey, Flip flop Klopp, Klopp in the Plop! etc. Why bother with Klopp as our next manager when Tony Pulis is available. This guy hasn't wasted his last 8 years in the manner of a Wenger. He's nearly perfected the art of closing off a game and has mastered the art of the long throw. Tony knows when and how to use a towel to assist an attack. Tony's sides only attack when they need to as they spend the rest of the game kicking anything that crosses the half way line. Should appeal to you in bundles that clever, efficient way of playing football. Why waste energy when you can sit back and watch your opponents in possession of the ball - clever that! Far better to deploy Ozil in a defensive role as he's wasted as an attacker. Won't be many spectators at the Emirates I'm afraid because even after all these barren years we still enjoy good football being played by good footballers. I still can't figure out why you support AFC?

  9. cyril

    Oct 24, 2013, 0:21 #40836

    cry baby, 2nd to ball, knocked off ball, sucked in for goal (cab for sagna) and they had more players: At least I think they did. Boo hoo, I don't want to play anymore..

  10. Alsace Lorraine de Totteridge

    Oct 23, 2013, 23:31 #40835

    Arteta tried his best to try and do what Flamini has been doing in the games he has played, namely, patrolling the midfield, telling players what to watch and where to go, ensuring that the defence are fulfilling their duties, winning the ball and generally sorting everyone's lives out on the pitch. Arteta wasn't up to it, because he isn't a defensive midfielder. The winner wouldn't have happened had Flamini been available, and arguably not the first one either. We need another DM in January and of course the recent good run has convinced Mr Wenger that he need do nothing in January. This, right now and right here is why OGL isn't up to the task. There is no one to tell him that to win something this season, he must strengthen the team further. If we can offload Diaby and some others, then the change will pay for itself. If the team were naive last night then whose fault is that? I couldn't fault any of them for effort, and we weren't that far away from a good result against an excellent German team. Get the basic stuff right Arsene, and if you don't know how THEN ASK SOMEONE WHO DOES to do it for you. Another Flamini isn't going to drop into your lap like he did. You are going to have to go out and spend actual big money on a player who isn't a flash harry, but a functional player who enables the creative players to function.

  11. Babatunde

    Oct 23, 2013, 23:08 #40834

    King of Zamunda, where have I been? Dunno if you noticed, I've been the same place I've been these past EIGHT years. You think a few gimme wins against relegation sides like Norwich, Stoke and Sunderland erase the last 8 years? Hah! More fool you. This was the first big team Wenger faced and he was as ever, out of his depth. I'll repeat: 8 years, no trophies. Until that shocking stat changes, I'd stop celebrating winning a few games against rubbish teams who cannot compete financially with Arsenal

  12. King of Zamunda

    Oct 23, 2013, 21:49 #40833

    So then, it takes our first defeat in 12 odd games for WOBs like Babatunde to start crawling out from under their rock. Where have you been since the summer mate? What happened to your diatribes about crap Giroud is, and how this second-rate striker will never make it at our club? Consider tempering your platitudes if you ever want people to take what you say seriously. These people actively want Arsenal to lose, so they can feel a smug sense of vindication. You'll only ever hear from them when Arsenal lose, credit is rarely given to players and never to the manager when we're doing well. It would actually be quite funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

  13. Reality bites

    Oct 23, 2013, 21:32 #40832

    James....Toys R Us are having a sale.Suggest you pay them a visit as you'll be needing more toys in that pram.

  14. Babatunde

    Oct 23, 2013, 21:10 #40831

    @Westlower the drivel continues. "Giroud outshone Lewandowski" LOL. I've also seen matches where Welbeck has outshone Rooney. So what? Giroud will never be half the striker Lewandowski is. Next up, you STILL haven't explained to me how Klopp, with a team costing far less than Wenger's, was able to totally eclipse him? Hmmm. You hilariously mention that "most matches would end 0-0 if everyone adopted Borussia tactics". Let me help you out here dear boy. That German team that "created nothing" scored MORE GOALS than Arsenal. And WON the game. So frankly, you look rather silly going on about how negative they are. Laughable!! Also, for games to end 0-0, Wenger would have to have a clue how to drill a defence. Seeing as in this "amazing season", they've conceded to Norwich, Swansea and even Di Canio's Sunderland, I'll choose to laugh at that statement! You seem to fail to grasp tactics: Klopp LET Arsenal huff and puff, knowing they lacked the quality or the tactical know-how to win. Dortmund didn't attack like mugs all night. They waited and attacked when it mattered most. Wenger lost the game. Full stop. So chat all u want. When it's said and done, he's had SIXTEEN YEARS to do something of more in the CL, and yet he's won ur less times than Di Matteo!!! A total joke. Still. Wouldn't want Wenger teaching teams to defend and like u know, tactics (whatever they are)...

  15. Man United Killer

    Oct 23, 2013, 21:04 #40830

    @Westlower."..... If both sides adopted this negative policy when creation becomes secondary we are in for plenty of boring 0-0 matches." What is NEGATIVE about closing your opposition down and preventing them to play? Bayern do the same thing, they stifle you so you cant play but they play alright when they have the ball.Not letting your opposition play & you not playing either is negative but not letting opposition play but playing yourself is completely solid tactics.If your opponent wont close you down and disrupt your tactics that is completely up to them.Barca, Bayern and Dortmund dont let oppositon play but they sure do play when they have the ball.

  16. Westlower

    Oct 23, 2013, 20:41 #40829

    Babatunde Speaking as an average modern Emirates zombie I didn't make myself clear so I'll try and enlighten you further. My reference to Bayern was meaning they are superior to BD. Currently there isn't a more impressive team around than BM. I've only ever seen four teams tactically & technically on a completely different level to their peers, namely Real Madrid in the 60's, Ajax in the 70's, AC Milan in the 90's & Barcelona under Guardiola. I'm not comparing Stoke players with the technically gifted BD players, merely the 'masterclass tactic' of physically stopping the other side from playing their attacking game. The PL is full of such teams but they lack the class of the BD team to successfully execute this tactic. If both sides adopted this negative policy when creation becomes secondary we are in for plenty of boring 0-0 matches. Arsenal were entitled to go for a winning goal after dominating possession and territory in the 2nd half. Perhaps your hatred of Wenger has blinded you from seeing anything good about our team. How many times did BD threaten the Arsenal goal? Once in the 2nd half, hardly the stuff of coaching genius! Giroud outshone Lewandowski, although he cannot match the Pole's elbow power. In my opinion BD simply didn't deserve to win the game last night and appeared surprised to do so. It appears AFC have a better reputation externally than internally if your rants are anything to go by!

  17. Man United Killer

    Oct 23, 2013, 20:15 #40828

    @1975 How can we lack confidence after our recent form? If our run of results going into the game did not give us enough confidence to show up then it must be that we just dont have the mental ability to challenge big teams.Take your pick Sir.Or maybe we failed to pass our real first test?

  18. Man United Killer

    Oct 23, 2013, 20:05 #40827

    LOL@Canada Gooner "We will make it to the knockout stages (feel free to quote me on that!), and then, get knocked out as usual"

  19. jollyJumper

    Oct 23, 2013, 19:55 #40826

    @ CanadaGooner 12:08 - You wrote it all for me. Wenger said that the team was naïve?! WTF?! He is incapable to see that Klopp brought in two fresh players (66 min) and he did not consider to bring in 10 min later Monreal and Jenkinson? Rosicky was tired ... no, dead and Özil was out of shape this match. Against such a pressing team with two fresh players, OGL Wenger should have known that a draw 1:1 leaves us as you had stated ... and should have shut the match down. The winning goal for BD came in 82 min. But with OGL Wenger we are not going to win anything serious any more. Just go to Paris SG, Wenger! And we should get Klopp for a half of Wenger's salary.

  20. John Gooner

    Oct 23, 2013, 19:37 #40825

    Babatunde - I totally agree with you, however if you stay silent while the team are doing well and only come out when we lose you won't be taken seriously by the devout AKB's. I don't think Westlower understands the concept of a 'tactical masterclass' (not surprising) - What Klopp delivered (even with his touchline ban) was exactly a masterclass. A masterclass is not having a much better team and belittling your opposition, it's about knowing how to beat your opposition and carrying it out to perfection. The fact that he is able to do it with a much smaller budget and much less experience in the CL only highlights the point. Klopp has to be the next manager of Arsenal, be it next season or in 5 years time - Hopefully sooner!

  21. Babatunde

    Oct 23, 2013, 19:34 #40824

    @Westlower, a classic example of your average modern Emirates zombie. Embarrassing stuff. Where does that put Bayern? Well, where they are now actually, TREBLE winners. Next up, you've compared Borussia to Stoke. That's right. The artistry of Lewandowski and Marco Reus compared to Etherington and Crouch. Ridiculous. Next up, if it's so easy to simply "sit back and defend" WHY DOESN'T WENGER SO IT THEN? If defending is so dam easy, why didn't Wenger do that at OT when we lost 8-2? Why has he failed to do it EIGHT years? Also, I note you've deliberately failed to mention that Arsenal's two key players Ozil and Cazorla, cost more than the entire Dortmund team! Ah yes ignore it, maybe it'll go away LOL. Borussia schooled Arsenal and it's frankly embarrassing seeing ppl claim "we missed Theo" and "we coulda won". Yeah. "Coulda won" everything since 2005. STILL waiting...

  22. ROCKY THE KING

    Oct 23, 2013, 19:33 #40823

    AKB's celebrate the renaissance AKBugger Alls bemoan the reality of a loss. If AW stays at Arsenal and makes new buys equivalent to Ozil, then by the law of averages with 4 World class players in the side, we will win a CL trophy. Klopp for Arsenal? no thanks. The only benefit is that Klopp gets his player to play at high intensity with good pressure on the ball, but is it Wenger-Ball? No way, when we played Wenger Ball, we outshone Dortmund and cut them to pieces. What is Wenger-Ball? Read my next blog...lol

  23. 1975

    Oct 23, 2013, 19:28 #40822

    Perspective please. After 8 games in the PL we are top. Thats a long way off where I expected us to be regardless of how allegedly easy the teams we've played have been. 2 wins out of three in the CL. It's a tough group. It could be tight. Nobody in Europe is going beat Dortmund easily, home or away. They are a top side. We seemed to lack energy and sharpness. Also confidence. If we get knocked out I am not that fussed. We don't have the squad to challenge on all fronts. A really strong premier league challenge would change the whole dynamic in the club which is more important.

  24. CanadaGooner

    Oct 23, 2013, 19:10 #40820

    CALM DOWN people. Klopp has nothing on Wenger: neither have won the CL, and Wenger certainly has been around much longer than Klopp. Yesterday's result is NO indication of what's to come; did anyone think Arsenal were going to win the CL? If Santi's shot had gone in, instead of hitting th bar, we wont be saying what's being said today. But with 10mins to go, at 1-1, YES, Wenger got it all wrong. He should have sent on defensive players and called the forwards to heel. So, this had nothing to do with Klopp being GREAT, more to do with Wenger failing to do what you're supposed to do at this stage of the CL (hold on to point; even if it's just 1 point). We will make it to the knockout stages (feel free to quote me on that!), and then, get knocked out as usual

  25. Man United Killer

    Oct 23, 2013, 18:45 #40819

    @Babatunde.Solid points my friend.Klopp totally outshone Wenger.His squad is definitely cheaper and they play the effective passing game that has evaded Wenger for years.Also Wenger's habit of using the wrong player for the wrong position will continue to haunt us until something is done about that.We have no width and our full backs cant cross for nothing.

  26. Westlower

    Oct 23, 2013, 18:37 #40818

    Babatunde, If you considered that as a tactical masterclass I don't know where that puts Bayern? BD did a job that's all, worked their socks off and closed us down, creating very little. It's easier to stop a team playing than it is to create. No tactical genius required, Stoke do it all the time. Fortunately for BD we made two mistakes and were punished. I wouldn't bet against us getting a result at their place, when we can hit them the break.

  27. billthered

    Oct 23, 2013, 18:34 #40817

    Last night was a disappointing result but there were more than enough plusses in the performance.Firstly we were the home side and dually attacked like one no matter what anyone says the home team usually does and when playing top sides they mostly sit in and play on the counter which is what we can do in Germany and Italy.What in my opinion we missed most of all was Flamini as he seems to be the captain without the armband and understands the dark side of the game where Arteta is good but cannot drag players into position.

  28. CanadaGooner

    Oct 23, 2013, 18:24 #40816

    I like it when people say "we were beaten by a very good team" and then follow that with "we will take points at Dortmund": HOW?. If Dortmund only need a draw to qualify when we play them in Dortmund, then we may take a point there. If not, you can be certain they wont make the kinds of mistakes we made yesterday! It is inconceivable, that after so many years making it through the group stages, that Wenger started to believe the hype as well, and went all out, when the ONLY sensible thing to do was keep the 1 - 1, get 7 points and condemn Dortmund to 4 points, and they would have had to play to win against us in Dortmund and we would have been able to hit them on the counter. Schoolboy error if I ever saw one!

  29. Rick

    Oct 23, 2013, 18:23 #40815

    The Man Ure, Tiny Totts, Chavvy, Citeh pretend Arsenal supporting folk are out in their droves online today with their usual anti Arsenal spin. Crawl back under your stones and stick to commenting on your own teams hoofball games.

  30. declan burke

    Oct 23, 2013, 17:56 #40814

    Yes a disappointing result in the end but so much encouragement to be taken from this clash against a supreme outfit. we can take points in Dortmund and Naples, This was the so called first major test, and yes we lost but overall I am as excited about this season now, just as much and possibly more than I was at 7.45 last night. For my money last season's 2 finalists are still far superior to all others, We may well look back and find that last night's game made us much wiser.

  31. Th14afc

    Oct 23, 2013, 17:50 #40813

    Whoever it was that said 'enough is enough,sack the manager' is far to predictable and wrong....2 defeats since march,lose to 1 of the best teams in Europe and u want wenger out,come back to me in Janna's we'll see how the gunners r duin then,top of the league right now so lets not go overboard just yet eh?

  32. Man United Killer

    Oct 23, 2013, 17:36 #40812

    @Goonner Ron. I say that because we have two more away games and only one home game. We are on top because our better head to head history vs BD or our coefficient-can't remember what takes precedence per UEFA rules but the point is this: Napoli is very strong at home-they beat BD at home (something we could not do) and BD now isn't the one we beat at home and drew away with in 2011( with our then star man RVP).Optimism is good but you need to be wary in saying we will come away with draws in those fixtures.we need to be really good.All I am saying is we blew our home fixture and I am not sure Napoli or BD will be as naive as we were.At least I'd expect that they learn from our mistake.Yesterday Napoli got from Marseille what we also got and BD will also probably do the same so where does that leave us?

  33. Spaced

    Oct 23, 2013, 17:21 #40811

    It's so easy to pass judgement after the event and start slagging Wenger off (again). From where I was sitting, with the momentum clearly moving with us in the second half after the introduction of Cazorla, I thought to myself "we're going to win this". But there is always the risk of counter attack (esp without Flamini) at this level. But it's oh so easy to then say, oh we should've settled for a point. Yeah in hindsight, well done.... But we came this close to winning that game and I was quite pleased with the performance. Stop the moaning.

  34. Jude Jollyfella

    Oct 23, 2013, 17:15 #40810

    Ramsey's in the form of his life. Long may it continue; however, are we allowed to comment about his dithering that led to their first goal without getting caned? Just curious.

  35. GoonerRon

    Oct 23, 2013, 17:08 #40809

    @ Man United Killer - you say last night was make or break yet we lost and are still top of the group? According to my (admittedly quick) calculations we can draw in Dortmund and Napoli and qualification will still be in our hands when we go into the last fixture at home to Marseille. At the end of the day we went into the qualifiers and everyone feared we wouldn't make it to group stages, then we got drawn in the Group of Death and are top at the half way point. It is a position we would have undoubtedly taken at this stage.

  36. Bard

    Oct 23, 2013, 17:07 #40808

    Its amazing how quickly the posts get polarised into for or against Wenger. To my mind it's simple if we don't win anything he should go but last night was about how small the margin for error is at the top level. The team have done well up to now but the errors we saw last night have been evident in previous games. The opposition just havent been good enough to capitalise on them. The team need to step up to the next level if they are going to win anything. There's some tough games coming up so we won't have to wait long to find out if the improvement is for real or it's another false dawn.

  37. Gunner SA

    Oct 23, 2013, 17:07 #40807

    I've seen the TV replays Kev and it was Sagna out of the position for the winner. Arteta should have been covering but was much too far away from Lewandoski to affect his finish :( Talking of Kieran Gibbs, never mind the poor crossing, why can't he throw himself at the ball (like he did in the 2nd half to concede a corner) every time? The 1st goal might have been prevented then.

  38. Babatunde

    Oct 23, 2013, 17:04 #40806

    Isnt it funny though? The AKBs are forever showing off about Arsene "16 years of CL qualification" bla bla etc. So Wenger has had 16 years to get this right agreed? Now Kevin makes a great point, which is that Dortmund looked so much more experienced, and so much more composed. Tactically, far superior. Yet, how is this so? Klopp had had what...2-3 years of CL experience? How can he do comprehensively outthink Wenger? Hmm? I've even heard some apologists claim "oh there's no shame in losing to Dortmund". That may be true. But. Would this be the same people who constantly excuse our regular thrashings at the hands of Chelski, ManYoo and Citeh with "we cannot compete financially"? Well where's the excuse for last night? Cos what I saw, was a Dortmund team and young manager give a tactical masterclass. Oh and did you know, that Ozil and sub Cazorla combined, cost more than the entire Dortmund 11? Sssshhh don't mention that to the AKBs though! Some people will think it's too early to judge and though that's partly true, funny how everyone was willing to judge Arsene as a genius after wins against, errrrm...oh yeah Sunderland, Norwich and Swansea! First quality team faced, normal service resumed. Yawn. What people need to see is that Ozil or no Ozil, Wenger yet again botched the summer: where's the DCM? (flam not enough). Where is the top class striker? Where is the centre half with pace and power? Where's the keeper to challenge our average loudmouth? Oh but I forget, signing Ozil solved world hunger didn't it! Sigh...I'll choose to look at the evidence before me, which says it will be approaching NINE years in 2014, since Wenger last rob anything. That is a total joke my friends. And if you want to know who should replace Wenger, I'll point you in the direction of the young German chap last night, who turned up with a team that cost far less to assemble than Wenger's, and beat him comfortably.

  39. maguiresbridge gooner

    Oct 23, 2013, 16:24 #40805

    Tony Evans, a fair point if it had been the other way round i'm sure more would have been made of it. If it was nil nil or we were one nil down with five minutes to go in the final and it happened would we want him to roll around in the box and get a pen or jump up and not make a fuss? But as Ron says fair play to Kos for getting on with it.

  40. Man United Killer

    Oct 23, 2013, 16:01 #40804

    We have put ourselves in a very difficult position.We have two away games and only one home game left.And the two other strong sides (BD and Napoli) have two home games each.We have to be extremely shiny to pick any points away from home against these opposition.All we are really in control of now is the home game vs Marseille.Back to hoping results elsewhere go our way.Typical Arsenal-lately.

  41. James

    Oct 23, 2013, 15:55 #40803

    Thought we did ok and certainly had the better of the game. IMO Dortmund came for a point and were overjoyed to get the three, the way they celebrated after the game you'd have thought they'd just won the champions league so you can see how much Arsenal are respected in Europe. I see all the negative boo boy big girl blubbering's have started again, the same old names with their tedious comments but that's usual from the nominal fans after every defeat. Still didn't see anything too frightening from Dortmund, compared to the football lesson Bayern dished out at Manchester City's expense and Arsenal still look the best in the group and will comfortably qualify. So if you want to be negative bore off elsewhere.

  42. Westlower

    Oct 23, 2013, 15:52 #40802

    Gooner/Chris, If we lose to BD & Nap beat Mar, They'll both be on 9 points after 4 games. Then if AFC beat Mar we'll have 9 points after 5 games. If BD beat Nap they'll be on 12 points & Nap 9. AFC will only need to draw with Nap to go through on 10 points, but if Nap beat BD we'll have to beat Nap to qualify on 12 points, assuming BD will beat Mar. Should Mar win a game(s) it's all back in the mixer! I hope I've got it right?

  43. Man United Killer

    Oct 23, 2013, 15:48 #40801

    It really really really hurts to lose in our own backyard,especially knowing that teams like Dortmund wont let us get away with a win in their backyard. We learned (no I mean reminded) of two things yesterday.First of all this season is not going to be much different than last season regarding how far we will get in the CL.The first decent team will kick us out as usual.Last nights game was make or break for the most part.Winning that would have pretty much gauranteed knockout stage. Secondly, Wenger has not found a remedy to teams closing us down.BR crowded the midfield and refused to give us any time on the ball but we didnt do the same thing to them.We allowed them to build up their play and control large sections of the game. Wenger needs to use the right tool for the right job.Arteta is not a DM and will never be. The players gave their best but it was not enough on the day.At the end of the day,we lost because the manager failed.We could have gotten a point otherwise. English teams are typically overhyped and usually struggle against highly technical teams.The article injects a good dose of reality and we as a club are still very far from the finished article which is a surprise given our year in year out involvement in the CL.

  44. jeff wright

    Oct 23, 2013, 15:45 #40800

    The percentage call with the game at 1-1 was to play for the draw . Dortmund were waiting to try and hit us on the break - it wasn't rocket-science to work that out . A draw, as Wenger conceded after the game, would have been a good result. Typically he blamed our players for losing it, however when he sent on Cazorla it was obvious that Wenger wanted to win , Cazorla quickened things up and was unlucky not to score, but going all out for a win proved to be costly for us. Wenger should try holding his hands up sometimes and just admitting that he got things wrong instead of blaming others. We will have some one coming on next blaming the ref,oh...!

  45. MoFaya

    Oct 23, 2013, 15:05 #40799

    The big lesson for the Arsenal is that NOBODY LIKES TO PLAY UNDER PRESSURE including Dortmund. Arsenal did not apply much pressure on Dortmand when Dortmand had the ball. Without the pressure Dortmand was able to control the pace of the game and Arsenal forfeited the entire first half for this. With that Arsenal threw away the home advantage until Carzola came on. The Dortmand goal was a silly mistake that may never be repeated so it does not provide a measure of Arsenal's 'inferiority' just like the Arsenal goal does not prove Dortmand's ineptitude except that silly mistakes get ruthlessly punished at this level of the game.In VERY SHARP CONTRAST, Dortmand made it their primary business to pressure and corner Arsenal in possession into uncomfortable and unproductive possession. That way the Arsenal game stopped flowing and no scoring opportunities were created until late in the first half. In the next game there should be no zonal defending and Arsenal must disrupt Dortmand's defenders by putting pressure on them, especially on goal kick situations. Once the defenders are denied an opportunity to pass the ball to each other without any pressure they will be force into long punts into the middle of the pitch in which the poor accuracy of the passes will mean Arsenal has a 50% chance at regaining possession. There-after its anyone's game, THE BETTERTEM ON THE DAY WILL WIN.

  46. AFC14

    Oct 23, 2013, 15:01 #40798

    Lewandowski 100% red card. Cant beleive the referee gave him a yellow.

  47. Tony Evans

    Oct 23, 2013, 14:54 #40797

    Ron - as you say we can't have it both ways can we. Like you I wouldn't really want Arsenal resorting to trying to get players sent off but the Kos incident does highlight the difference between the current side and the trophy winning teams of the past (that I can remember) - 70/71, 78/79, 87-93 and 98-2005 that all had an 'edge' to them that is sadly missing now.

  48. Ron

    Oct 23, 2013, 14:18 #40796

    Tony - A can of worms to open there mate, but point taken. Im no Koschielny fan but he seems a really good sport in that way and his reaction was predictable. I dont think it was a red and the ref got it right and tbh i was pleased to see the way Kos got on with it. I dont think even he thought it was deliberate. I say this on the basis that we cant have it all ways ie screaming fake on one hand and then shouting for our players cheat. (I know that youre not saying that either matey). It was good old fashioned discretionary reffing wasnt it. Nobody was hurt, player got away lightly and there was no 'handbags' between players. It does demonstrate a certain lack of 'winners nous' in the Club though as you say. Thats nothing new though is it. A squad full of choirboys for far too long has created that.

  49. Tony Evans

    Oct 23, 2013, 13:55 #40795

    One point worth mentioning is that Lewandowski may not have even been on the pitch to score the winner had he been playing against a more wised up side than Arsenal. Had Koscielny gone down, writhing on the ground clutching his face in the usual fashion, the ref may well have shown a red, especially if Arsenal players had applied a bit of pressure too. I am certainly not condoning that sort of behaviour but again it shows a lack of a winning mentality at Arsenal. OK some would call it a cheating mentality but it is an interesting point all the same.

  50. jeff wright

    Oct 23, 2013, 13:42 #40794

    City went out on 10 points 2 years ago, I think we will need at least 5 or 6 points from our remaining 3 games. 2 wins , or a win and 2 draws should do the trick. 4 points from 12 might not be enough and it will be the Europey Cup channel 5 on Thursday night for us.

  51. maguiresbridge gooner

    Oct 23, 2013, 13:40 #40793

    Reality check alright Kev or brought back down to earth with a sore arse, although what i was hearing last night was more along the lines of we're not as good as we think we are yet, and we still have a long way to go, or we still need a couple more world class players, but a lot of fans already knew that anyway, as we're a long way off being the finished article. And it showed against our first real test against a team with players as good as some of ours and who were capable of passing the ball as good as we did if not better, and a mistake from ourselves certainly helped their cause. But your right it can't be held against Ramsey who was entitled to one with his performances so far this season but it could turn out to be a costly one. But it's not the end of the world as a reality check never done anyone any harm and we'll have a chance to make up for it in the return and in the other stiff tests coming up and hopefully we'll fare out better, starting with the mighty palace on Saturday in the prem it's a chance to get last night quickly out of the system with the performance's we've been showing of late and hopefully reality doesn't bite again.

  52. Chris

    Oct 23, 2013, 13:23 #40792

    gooner - that's not correct. If that happened, Napoli would then have 10 points and us 7 after 5 games. If they lost in Dortmund and we beat Marseille in the last game, we'd both have 10 points. And if that was the case, we'd go through due to having taken 4 points off Napoli....

  53. John Gooner

    Oct 23, 2013, 13:21 #40791

    Does anyone still question whether Klopp is the right man for Arsenal? That said, it was a something of nothing result and the title of the article says it all. Let's hope that the players learn from this and don't believe their own hype as far too many Wenger sides have. Well written article and appropriately neutral on the positive-negative debate.

  54. WeAreBuildingATeamToDominate

    Oct 23, 2013, 13:20 #40790

    Wenger acknowledged the team was too gung-ho? And who had them playing in that manner then? More spin from the spin-meister. Ramsey awful, Wilshire, who everyone seems to think is the saviour of English football, may as well not have been on the pitch as Kev quite rightly points out, a wake up call to anyone who thought the European Cup (hell, any cup at all) will be sitting in the trophy cabinet come the end of the season. You can get away with performances like that against the dross we face week in week out, but not at this level against that calibre of opposition.

  55. Weather vane

    Oct 23, 2013, 13:18 #40789

    All you Wenger Outs, told you so, he's the best....oh we lost, Wenger Out, sack everyone, I'm a victim!

  56. Ron

    Oct 23, 2013, 13:04 #40787

    CG - Spot on. Wengers got a nerve though citing player naivety. Its his naivety that rose to the fore again last night as its been doing for years. Hes useless in european football and has been for years. Crystal Palace ? If Wengers sulking about last night, it could well be a tough game. You ought not be too glib about Arsenals capacity to lose there now. Lets face it, him and a deep sulk that affects his teams are happy compatriots and has been for years!

  57. Bard

    Oct 23, 2013, 13:03 #40786

    Not a disaster by any means but showed that at the top level you need more class and better defensive nous . Both goals were gifted and we don't have a world class striker like Dortmund. Missed Falmini no doubt. Still all to play for.

  58. jjetplane

    Oct 23, 2013, 12:59 #40785

    Westlower We were at no time controlling the game. That second half period Dortmund let Arsenal possess the game, and yes we were unlucky to not score. The more we semi-pressed the more Fort Flamini became a crucial absence. He simply does what Adams and Paddy always did and Arteta is not that type of player for ninety minutes. First twenty minutes set the tone with some woeful passing and hesitation and the difference was that when Dortmund pass it around there is always a reason for it. Well done again Kev and are we not happy to be facing Palace next? I am thinking this wake-up call is happening at the right time before we really have to play a few teams with ideas of their own. Whatever is happening, it has broke the ice between Bouldie and le Prof. Nice to see.

  59. gooner

    Oct 23, 2013, 12:55 #40784

    I fear if we lose to Dortmund away and Napoli wins against Marseille , then Arsenal is headed to Europa League! Coz Napoli will only need a draw against us and they are home and dry!

  60. Gaz

    Oct 23, 2013, 12:48 #40783

    As others have said it wasn't a disaster by any means and I can't help thinking if Cazorla had started the game things may have been different anyway. There were a few below par performances-particully from Wilshere, Ramsey and Ozil-but for me the full-backs are causing most concern. I understand the general feeling that they're (Gibbs and Sagna) 'great players' but in a side where the full-backs are sometimes the only players to offer us width their final ball lacks the kind of quality you get from someone like Leighton Baines. I realise it was Sagnas cross that created our goal but in the main they tend to be overhit or aimed at the first defender. Its not a critical problem by any means but I cant help feeling a big improvement in that area is required. Generally though we were always going to lose at some point and if nothing else we'll really find out just how good this side is. I'm hoping they come back strong in the next few games as theres an army of people out there more than happy to throw the 'they only beat the lesser sides' line about...

  61. Kenny

    Oct 23, 2013, 12:45 #40782

    Its an old saying in the CL.As soon as Arsenal play a half decent team they are found out.We have been fortunate over the years to have had easy draws in the group stage.You just cannot play the way we do in the premiership against average teams and get away with it against Europe's best.Dortmund were organised and had a game plan.We just played the same way as we always do.And when it doesnt work we get found out.Wenger even after 16 years still hasnt got hold of this European lark

  62. Johnny Lynch

    Oct 23, 2013, 12:39 #40781

    When you are relying on the World's Greatest Striker to save the game .. put on by a man on the best part of 8 million a year ( a million for every trophy-less year if you will ) .. Great against Norwich and Swansea ay ?

  63. Westlower

    Oct 23, 2013, 12:39 #40780

    I agree with Kev's assessment of the game. It was not a terminal defeat. Even though we weren't at our best we could/should have won against one of the best teams in Europe. Given the way we controlled the second half it was sensible to go for the winner and kill the group off. Cazorla gave us fresh impetus and on another day we could have scored more goals. I didn't see too much wrong with AR's goal? On another day Rosicky & Gazorla may also have scored. Szczesny had very little to do! BD players are masters at hitting the deck under the slightest of challenges, yet Lewandowski only gets a yellow for a deliberate elbow in the face. Wouldn't swop him for Giroud. We need to give Giroud better support, as some of the crosses were woeful. How much more secure we look with Flamini in the side. Wouldn't bet against us getting a result in Dortmund with Flamini & Walcott back in the side. If those two had played last night we would have won! Regardless of the defeat, we still have a good chance of qualifying.

  64. Malaysian gunner

    Oct 23, 2013, 12:33 #40779

    I agree fully with what Canada wrote.His first point is valid. If Wenger had chosen to play anti soccer,the gunners would have put pressure on BD to commit to attack. I think the responsibility for this defeat rest with Wenger.Any other manager in similar circumstances would have been justified in parking the bus/lorry/container truck. Wenger shd in restropect looked on a missed opportunity. However all is not lost.If Arsenal can take 2 points from Dortmund and Napoli,the gunners could still qualify.

  65. Upminster Gooner

    Oct 23, 2013, 12:32 #40778

    sack the manager! enough is enough!

  66. Tony Evans

    Oct 23, 2013, 12:24 #40776

    At least Wenger admonished the team for their naivety but shouldn't he be pulling the strings more and accepting some of the blame himself? Flamini was badly missed last night and it is worrying that there is no one to replace him effectively. Not a disaster by a long chalk but a reality check that soft goals conceded are still all too likely against the best sides.

  67. DANNYJW

    Oct 23, 2013, 12:20 #40775

    It may be a coincidence that our two defeats have come without Flamini in the side. A draw would have been a satisfactory result last night and it was good to hear Wenger acknowledge the team were a bit gung-ho. Saying all that I was pleased the team didn’t go under after a poor first 20 minutes and responded in a positive fashion. Will probably need a point at least in Napoli to qualify but with players returning I’m confident we can achieve this.

  68. CanadaGooner

    Oct 23, 2013, 12:08 #40774

    Not sure why people are acting so surprised. The only winner yesterday (apart from Dortmund) are the pundits; suddenly there’s enough crap to talk about, and the imminent arsenal collapse will be the topic of every tv sports show. For me, two things happened yesterday: (1) when we were 1 – 1 with 10 minutes to go, we became so naïve! Protecting the draw was what Wenger should have set out to do, and we would have finished with 7 points (top of the group), and Dortmund on 4 points, with Napoli on 6. But we kept piling forward and the inevitable happened as is usually the case; (2) we were beaten by a team that now has a great deal of experience negotiating the CL stages. This is a team that made it to the final last time around, where Barcelona and real Madrid failed; so, why should Arsenal, a team that’s only ever made 1 CL final (several seasons back) have a god’s given right to assume we’ll beat Dortmund? – at 1 – 1, Wenger should have taken couple of our forward-minded players off and thrown defensive players on, to signal his intention to protect the draw. Now, all that said, who really cares about yesterday’s result? The only possible detriment is to the morale of the team (who were wrongfully beginning to think they had arrived! Might be a good wake-up call); we were never going to win the CL anyway, and we always get through the group stages, and will no doubt achieve that again this year. So, what’s the fuss about? As Roy Keane cleverly pointed out last night, might even be a good thing for our PL hopes, if we exit the CL now (as opposed to going one more step and getting knocked out in the first knock-out stage, which is almost imminent). In summary, not much harm done by yesterday’s results, all good. But every pundit in the land will be on Wenger’s case right now, and I’m sure some will even be predicting Crystal Palace will be a very tough game! Idiots!