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League Cup Dreaming

Looking ahead to tomorrow evening

28 October, 2013 9:00 67 comments
League Cup Dreaming

Remember the last time?

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And so, November approaches. And with it, our last chance of a trophy? What’s this, my little boat negativity is sailing/sinking in the sea of confidence?

Realism. That’s what I’m talking about. Which trophy are we closest to winning? The one that will end this horrible statistic that I admit I’m struggling to defend – 8 years and counting (really 9, but that sounds like tempting fate, as we can’t win anything this year).

For me, the closest trophy to our cabinet is the Capital One Cup, or COC if you must. Why? We get past Chelsea, we’re two rounds from Wembley. We would also have knocked out a direct rival for the trophy. We could banish the memory of 2012, 2011, 2007, 1968, 1969, 1988 (No - I can never forgive Gus). The players could taste success in an Arsenal shirt. This could be the start of something new. Winning stuff.

What about the league, you type? Well, what about it? We are, you could argue, where we should be – the fixture list was very kind, and to be fair, we’ve delivered the results. But the next 10 games will tell us a far truer picture.

The FA Cup? Feels like that’s miles away. And maybe we’re paying penance for stealing it in 2005. F*** the Champions League. We’re not even the best team in our group, and there are 7 other groups. But, the COC. We won a penalty shoot out in the last round. Our name on the trophy?

So I’m up for it – why aren’t you? A great time to rest the players, you say. Why don’t we just bend over? Their squad has far more depth than ours, with players who will want to impress to get into the first XI – surely we should stand toe to toe with them? We lost 5-0 to them in this cup when we fielded a weakened side in the late 90’s – that went well. Manninger was never the same after that.

Mourinho has never lost to Wenger. It’s a horrible statistic. 9000 of them will be there on Tuesday, expecting that stat to still be going strong come 10 o’clock, or later. We put a weakened side out, the message sent will be well received by the Blues. Guaranteeing the blues for us.

It matters little, you claim, Michael Mouse – er, it’s a trophy. It’s what we’re here for. Not the balance sheet. (I’m not alone in thinking that, am I?)

And it’s Chelsea. Why would we not go for it?

I’m going on Tuesday – I want us to go through. I’m desperate for a trophy. This is our best chance. I just hope we can believe that.

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67
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  1. BADARSE

    Oct 30, 2013, 13:36 #41070

    Hi Ron, I have never considered the comparison of that Leeds team and the Chelsea mob. The Leeds team were our nemesis for so long, it kind of obscured that view for me, yet I can certainly now see similarities by you pointing them out. You leave me with an ugly thought my friend, ha ha.

  2. Ron

    Oct 30, 2013, 12:42 #41064

    BADARSE - Point taken my freind, as ever. Mourinhos teams do so remind me of the Leeds teams of the period 1967 - 1972. What do you reckon? Theyre less cynical of course and date i say it, less dislikeable, but very similar in my view. Drilling and systems take precedence over flair and guile, though both Leeds and Chelsea had and have some excellent footballers. Im not keen onthe guy, but he s the type what Arsenal needs im afraid. He/his ilk is needed to knock the cobwebs off Arsenal and remove the stale stench of failure, fear and nervousness thats gripped the Club for years. If you like, these facets of the Club (for me)reflect Wengers gaunt image and prickly/suspicious persona. There is at least one or perhaps two potentially worthwhile careers in that largely weak sqaud that will whither on the vine under him unless the Club removes him.

  3. BADARSE

    Oct 30, 2013, 12:11 #41059

    Ron, hello again buddy. Yes Mourinho is a huge factor, that was a given. In terms of personality and squeezing every last drop from a player he is a master. Of course sometimes these characteristics and the traits displayed have a shelf life. Perhaps he would have fallen off the pace had he stayed. Familiarity breeds much more than outright contempt, even Brian Clough suffered from this malaise. With all that I make a statement, not at all shamefacedly, in keeping with my position on The League Cup, or it's fanciful current misnomer. This is, I would celebrate the winning of it, as is my right were we to achieve it, whilst dismissing it when we exit it's competition, as all for the grander plan of priorities. Likewise Mourhino. I dislike much about him and would prefer he wasn't at our club, though if he came I would afford him my support and encouragement, whilst duly celebrating any hardware-it isn't silverware when they win it-that came our way. Contradictory? Minds are chum!

  4. Ron

    Oct 30, 2013, 10:02 #41043

    BADARSE - No mention of Mourinho mate? Like him or loathe him, you cd see last night that he has his players busting a gut for him, even those who cant get in his first 11 and are rumoured to be dissafected by it. In turn look how he showed it at the whistle, on the pitch,hugging and telling his players he thought they had done well. Making them feel valued and vital. Contrast that with Wenger, who even on a good day, at best just wears a smug grin. We rarely see a player going the extra mile for him and he appears not to do the same for them. Hes a busted flush and has been for quite some years. Mourinho isnt afraid to have bigger personalities than him in his dressing room and yet he still keeps them in line and they in turn know that theyre appreciated. Its that which makes him a better coach than Taggart. Manure missed a trick when they ignored Mourinho, but Chelsea are the winners. They are looking very ominous right now. Theyre a unit again, big physical players with one objective. Very dangerous. Mourinho s the major factor in it. Had he have stayed there, it beggars belief where they would be now.

  5. BADARSE

    Oct 30, 2013, 9:47 #41039

    A question LJB. If you dislike the owner, board, manager, the fans (most),and presumably quite a few players, why do you support Arsenal? It is not a flippant question. I know once you choose a team you are generally locked in for life, but I think supporting AFC may seriously affect your health, it has your attitude already. I am disappointed, I cannot stop my emotions coming into play, yet expected the outcome. Last night was an illustration of why I believe Chelsea will win the league. A very strong squad and a determination to win in whichever way suits. Strength in depth, and a highly motivated, skilful, and organised group of players can make for potential winners. We are still trying to reach that level, but are clearly on our way. Still a long way short, but heading in the right direction. Then again I could have said, let's get rid of everyone at AFC, and start again, though that doesn't seem very constructive.

  6. underacheiver

    Oct 30, 2013, 3:04 #41021

    Mourinho must love playing against Wenger's teams. He always knows exactly what his side will be up against, all so predictable ( except the master stroke of sending Park on ).

  7. Jason B

    Oct 30, 2013, 0:07 #41020

    Bendtner,Ryo,Park,Jenkinson.****ing waste of space.The first three are not Arsenal standard and must be shown the door a.s.a.p.As for Jenkinson,wakey,wakey.You're playing Chelsea not charlton.

  8. Vinnie Huntley

    Oct 29, 2013, 23:47 #41019

    Not overly worried by this, lets be honest Chelsea have an overall stronger squad. What still irks though is that most times we have played the chavs over the last 10 years the open play has been roughly equal but chavs have been more clinical, taking their chances and not making the mistakes we do sometimes. We also (mostly) play weakened teams in the Carling more so than Chelsea which also played its part.

  9. Danny

    Oct 29, 2013, 23:24 #41018

    The score line again proves what I been saying for years We will not win anything with Wenger in charge. This team is mentality and physically weak against superior opposition and coaches like Maureen Its Wenger ACHILLES HEEL, play attractive games against weak teams and come second I will go on record and say, we will lose against Liverpool also. Until Wenger leaves we will not step up a level Tactics and buying crap like Jenkinson does not cut it

  10. Benny2

    Oct 29, 2013, 23:14 #41016

    The WOBs are out in force! Lock your doors and windows!

  11. LJB

    Oct 29, 2013, 23:05 #41015

    A few wins against relegation fodder and the AKBs are out in force with their "I told you so's" and new contract for Wenger.Getting comprehensively outplayed AT HOME by the first two decent teams we have played,THIS is the real Wengers Arsenal.This match was embarrassing;Chelsea didn't even have to get out of fourth gear. When you look at the squaqd Rodgers has built at Liverpool in just over a year,and the football they are playing,and compare it with Wengers pathetic effort over the past few seasons,it amazes me that people can't see that there IS life after Arsene.Look at what Pochettino is doing at Southampton for gods sake.Seriously,i am FED UP of ALWAYS losing to EVERY big side we meet.We will never win another trophy under Wenger.And Arsene, I am sick of seeing you commenting every five minutes on Al Jazeera and canal+.Why don't you spend your time a little more constructively, like watching our opponents and working out a game plan,for example,or at least employ someone who can as you don't seem capable despite your 30 odd years in the game. One more thing;his performances against Dortmund,Palace and Chelsea have shown why Madrid sold Ozil.Overpriced,overhyped and lazy off the ball,much like the rest of Wengers pathetic excuse for a squad.Heres a prediction for all you "Positives";we will get hammered by Liverpool,Dortmund and United.Still as long as Wenger gets a new contract who cares about winning eh?Certainly not the owner,board and the majority of the Arsenal fanbase for whom making sure that a certain Frenchman stays seemingly forever appears to have superseded any attempts at creating a winning football team.

  12. Man United Killer

    Oct 29, 2013, 21:43 #41014

    "Typical Wenger and his choirboys" performance. Not that I expected different.

  13. dave

    Oct 29, 2013, 21:39 #41013

    Same old same old: two top teams played and two defeats. Complletely inept display.

  14. Danny

    Oct 29, 2013, 18:18 #41012

    Ron, you said, Wenger obsession is in winning the CL. This is a load of crap. Obsession is Mourinho and Ferguson wanting to win at all cost. Obsession for Wenger is to get a bonus at making it to the top 4. In a hour's time, you will see Chelsea piss on us as Wenger will pick his kids against Men. The quicker people realize that the better.

  15. BADARSE

    Oct 29, 2013, 17:14 #41011

    Hi Ron, well I guess we just have to disagree on the point in question and whether my approach is flawed or not. I won't say yours is, just a different perspective perhaps. You boldly state Arsene Wenger has an obsession in winning the CL. You will not be surprised to learn that I don't see it that way. I think it is a desire; a top manager of a top team would relish winning the biggest prize quite naturally, but obsession? This is where we depart reality and enter the world of pure conjecture. He may well sacrifice a number of aspects in giving both himself and his team a slightly better chance of securing the prize, but wholesale obsessive behaviour doesn't register in my eyes. I do believe this man has many foibles and idiosyncrasies, almost as many as I have, which govern my existence. Both helping and hindering my life, but I think he is a realist, if nothing else. He knows a cat can look at a king, so a cup competition is open to any side of a reasonable standard and better, recent examples are Liverpool and Chelsea. Arsenal, despite being pulled to pieces on a daily basis by their own fans, are in this category. The idea that you either win something or forget it is in itself a flawed mentality. It is that George W. Bush thing all over again, 'You are with us or against us'. Life and circumstance offer many shades of grey. You rarely see black or white. In financial terms you acquire more reward money the further you progress in the competition so that is a prime objective right here, right now. The best players have to meet Liverpool and carry any knocks into the big BD game, because both competitions are of equal importance at the moment. This suggests that perhaps the obsession you talk of straddles both the CL and the PL. If that's the case perhaps any obsession, so called, is a good thing.

  16. jeff wright

    Oct 29, 2013, 16:57 #41010

    These claims that Wenger never wants to win the League Cup do not stand up to analysis . Wenger put out a first team last season in the League Cup semi-final v Bradford away - that hardly looks like the actions of a man who is not interested in winning the competition. Albeit he lost to Bradford ,so perhaps other factors, such as his tactics, might be a better explanation for his poor record in the League Cup. He also put out a first team v Blackburn at home in the FAC and lost , again he was caught with his trousers down tactically. I can recall him also putting out a first team (Henry and all) in the semi-final second leg at Highbury in the League Cup v Wigan - to try and put right a bad away result after he had played a second string side , he also lost that semi on the away goal rule, with surprise surprise Wigan scoring a late goal in extra-time by catching us on the break when we were going gung-ho for a goal. Wenger's main problem now days is his constantly injury hit squad - some injured players return only to be replaced by new ones - like in some crazy revolving door scenario. Wenger's squad is also due to his own policies padded out with kids and long-term constantly injured players such as Diaby . Wenger needs to find some way to turn over Mourinho,who worryingly, a'la Sir Alex, is now a buddy of Arsene's . It's always a bad sign when these pair like another manager. Wenger needs to get back to being a problem for Mourinho - starting tonight.

  17. Ron

    Oct 29, 2013, 15:56 #41009

    Afternoon BADARSE - Your post is logically sound, but it ignores the wisdom and judgement required of a coach to make his rotation fit the circumstances he faces ie as Bard suggests, the Club really have no realistic chance of winning the CL so why rotate and hence weaken a team for a tournament that the Club could conceiveably win? The method of Arsenals rotation for so many years is based on Wengers obsession to win the CL, despite not having the team to capabably win it since 06. Its been pointed out that the team to face Liv wont differ, injuries apart, from the team that faces BD a few days later, so the whole basis of what your saying is slightly flawed.

  18. maguiresbridge gooner

    Oct 29, 2013, 15:13 #41008

    A lot of Arsenal fans especially arsene ones are getting more like the red mancs, the COC is only a mickey mouse trophy if they don't win it, but if/when they do it's the greatest competition and hardest to win there is.

  19. Lord Froth

    Oct 29, 2013, 14:20 #41007

    A good post Spaced. I didn't know that about running. I'm still looking forward to the game tonight though regardless of the starting 11.

  20. BADARSE

    Oct 29, 2013, 14:10 #41006

    Afternoon all. Spaced, you have a real grasp of my reality. I use the possessive as we all have differing senses of reality and assume all are in tandem with us, and if not, why not? The next conclusion is the other person must be wrong. Wrong rather than different. That will always drive a wedge between learning a different slant, and hanging onto hackneyed myopic views. If I played you tennis for five sets in the sun, assuming our fitness and stamina levels were similar, and our standard was mirrored, the match would remain finely balanced I expect. If we played on another set and our energy levels remained comparable then I assume the play would remain even. If however a clone took over from me after a couple of sets you would be really up against a new fresher me coming into the match in the third set. That is obvious but most overlook that simple comparison. When Arsenal played their sixty game seasons so did other teams. The small squads tired at the same rate. Now with the advent of larger squads we know that if we continued to play our best eleven constantly they would suffer against rotated squads. A knock on a Saturday lends itself to a likely inferior performance on a Wednesday. If patched up and sent out again on a Saturday the damage becomes dramatic. You have to compare like for like. A walking wounded team cannot compete over a very long period against a sensibly rotated good squad. That is so obvious it is painful not to be recognised by some. We will send out the best available, will be at a disadvantage due to Chelsea's depth of quality, but you never know, do you? Let's just give it our best.

  21. radfordkennedy

    Oct 29, 2013, 14:03 #41005

    Bard..I'm with you bruv on that one sounds good to me...Ron always a pleasure to swap points of view mate and to be honest I had no idea such 'ifs and ands'stipulations exsisted in players insurance policies,I wonder what would happen if we were to reach the FA final and or the CL final with the World Cup shortly afterwards,would players feign injury would they pull out of a 50-50 would the club have to consult the insurance broker before picking a big name international in case of injury before the WC finals...could you imagine the language a few years back had a player told Stroller "actually boss I'll sit this one out I want to feel fresh for saturday"

  22. Bard

    Oct 29, 2013, 13:57 #41004

    Spaced: so the team he puts out against Dortmund won't be the same as the one he puts out against Liverpool because they'll be knackered er.... I don't thinks so.

  23. Spaced

    Oct 29, 2013, 13:41 #41003

    The problem, which I don't think is fully appreciated here, is that playing twice a week does not allow sufficient physical recovery. This is not a case of players being delicate flowers nowadays. If a player goes out and plays 90 mins tonight, he will not be fully recovered on Saturday, he may feel fine but after an hour on Saturday he will become fatigued and will under perform, costing us the game. I used to do a lot of running and as a rule of thumb (for serious runners) it takes 1 day for every mile that you ran, to fully recover. These players run on average 6 miles per game. So for them to be fully recovered, they will require 6 days. It's not fitness, it's physiology. This is why players can be fatigued at any point in a season (much to the dismay of supporters). We can't risk underperforming players against Liverpool.

  24. Arsene Wenger

    Oct 29, 2013, 13:29 #41002

    Trouble with you lot is that you've never even spent 1 day in football.

  25. Comedy Joe

    Oct 29, 2013, 12:52 #41001

    Its amazing how many Gooners take this competition seriously.Especially when our manager never has.Remember the 2007 final when we played Chelsea.They played their strongest eleven Wenger put out a team with Almunia Hoyte Traore Denilson Diaby Aliadiere and Baptista.This was a final FFS and Wenger couldnt be bothered to put a strong team out.Wenger has always said it was our 5th priority just ahead of the Emirates cup.We will lose tonight a few fans will get worked up but most of us will say what Wenger has said for 17 years.Who cares?

  26. Bard

    Oct 29, 2013, 12:42 #41000

    How about this, play our best team tonight and beat Chelsea ,that will give us all the momentum for Liverpool on Sat. Try and get a point against Dortmund with whoever is left standing. No big deal if we don't go through the CL group because we haven't got a cat in hells chance of winning it. Play the kids in Europa cup and concentrate on league. Buy 3 players in Jan and we might have a good shout for the league. what's not to Iike about that.

  27. Ron

    Oct 29, 2013, 12:24 #40999

    R/K - Im right with you mate. Mindset counts for a lot. Its right that footballers are trained to become 'athletes' these days hence there is a reduction in durability and theyre not near so robust. Its aimed at speed and mobilty now (though im unsure how that applies to Merter and Arteta et al!!)Technology has a lot to anser for. A Club can tell a player he s lacking or tired even when said player thinks he s doing and feeling great. In turn the massive insurance policies Clubs have on players insist on certain criteria for fitness and risk measures before they ll insure or agree to pay out on. The Clubs sell it (resting and rotation) to us fans as if they actually care for the players and as if they deliberately plan the resting etc etc. Its all cobblers. Its money and insurance that governs it. We call the players 'pansies' and in some cases its unfair. In my view however, its bang on in many cases! A good many are never happier than when theyre not playing, esp when they miss playing the better teams as the intensity isnt there in lesser matches. Its like this at semi pro level for sure, so im darned sure its the same at the top level. Players used to be abused by steroid use to get them onto a pitch years ago and that was wrong but the pendulum has gone too far the other way now. These players are in many instances telling their coaches when theyre content to play even if theyre fit and able. The money that Clubs get from merchandising from said players and from sponsors means that coaches and the Clubs have to lump it when players get toe ache and decide to cry off. Footballs dying in its own cess pit of money and greed sadly.

  28. radfordkennedy

    Oct 29, 2013, 11:54 #40998

    Lord froth...agreed mate the game today is on a different planet to the one I first watched but then in my opinion so is the mindset of certain players there does not seem to be the death or glory attitude anymore and I'm convinced that some players convince themselves that if I play today I'm gonna be tired on saturday...anyway its a shame that in a game which is decided on the night and no replays we can't go full tilt at it with our best available

  29. Gare K

    Oct 29, 2013, 11:04 #40996

    Lord Froth - see the Mirror Football online site or the Daily Mirror for the Petit quote. If we don’t have the depth of squad which most Gooners and football fans alike agree on then who do you blame for that? Contrary to popular belief from non-Gooners, I actually think Wenger was right to dispense with so many players last summer. However, in my view, we are still short on a centre-back, a striker & another DM (I’m not sold on Arteta) and Wenger planning to have a fully-fit Diaby every season when that has only happened once since 2006 is baffling. You get a winning a mentality from winning trophies (and at least we are competing this year which wasn’t the case for the last two seasons) not scraping over the line for the ‘4th place trophy’.

  30. Lord Froth

    Oct 29, 2013, 10:17 #40994

    RadfordKennedy - Ideally I would like the team to go for it in every game they play but I don't know what it is about modern players whether it's the pitches they play on, the training regime, the diet or something else but they just can't all play a 60 game season with getting several strains and injuries. It's now part and parcel that players need the occasional rest or they're just wasted by the business end of the season.

  31. radfordkennedy

    Oct 29, 2013, 9:58 #40993

    It says a lot when if we don't field our first XI we've as good as thrown a game, I understand the bigger picture scenario it just irks me somewhat that todays 100k a week player can't play today and again saturday night,if someone gets injured then so be it,you regroup and go again,I might be a misguided old fool but I still think of us as a sporting club in the pursuit of glory and trophies.I would take the chance of a trophy with our ribbons on with a day at wembley against 4th place and getting beat in the quarters in the CL anytime.our history has often showed what a springbord it can be,and in anycase isn't cup finals what its all about sure terry cooper and bloody don rogers spoiled my first two finals but I'd rather we went for everything we enter rather than pick n choose,its ribbons over a pound note for me

  32. @loyaltoarsenal

    Oct 29, 2013, 9:34 #40992

    Totally agree. Im going tonight and really want to see their 9000 faces full of disappointment. We did however lose to bradford with our first team last year. I was there for that too and it was horrible

  33. Lord Froth

    Oct 29, 2013, 9:11 #40991

    Gare K - When did Petit say that? If it was in the late 90s then the League Cup was more respected then, I suspect that he might think differently today. We just don't have the depth of squad to rotate without significantly weakening the team. We are doing so well in the league at the moment that I just don't see the point of jeopardising players that we need for against Liverpool and Manchester United. If we do lose this game then I don't think it'll have much of an effect on the first team to be honest. If we do win then hopefully we'll see one or two arrivals in January. Maybe a striker and cover for Flamini perhaps?

  34. Gare K

    Oct 29, 2013, 2:17 #40988

    To those who still think the cup tie against Chelsea still means nothing, then digest the words of Emmanuel Petit, a man who did far more for The Arsenal than any of te current squad: “You cannot afford to make differences between trophies. You need to have a winning spirit which means you go out to win every game. You can’t pick and choose. You need a winning mentality."

  35. Th14afc

    Oct 29, 2013, 0:17 #40987

    Pessimistic mike....what makes u so sure we won't win anything this year?i think the title is still beyond us at this moment in time as is the champs league but I certainly haven't ruled out tomorrow's tin pot cup or the fa cup,why rule is out of the fa cup before it's even started thts just silly....come on you gunners tomorrow!plus if my memory serves me right mourinho is very fortunate that wenger hasn't won against his sides yet,a 1-1 draw at emirates springs to mind,didn't enjoyed score that day?we were the better team and we could easily hav won the 2-2 draw at highbury (Henry quick free quick game) let's hope that tomorrow the boys do the business

  36. GoonerRon

    Oct 28, 2013, 23:18 #40984

    I think it's really important that we strike the right balance in our rotation, as I'm sure Wenger will want to win this game and keep key players fresh for the forthcoming tough run. The things going in our favour are that we can rotate and still have a strong back 4 and a goal threat in attacking midfield. The question marks are whether we can get the right defensive balance in midfield and whether Bendtner can perform as well as his international goal scoring record suggests he can. I'm looking forward to seeing how we get on.

  37. Jason B

    Oct 28, 2013, 21:13 #40983

    Yes, I will be there as well. Come on you reds!!

  38. Jack

    Oct 28, 2013, 20:08 #40981

    Finsbury Joe. Spuds have the worst fans in the premiership according to AVB. Also the worst and most passionless football ever seen in the Premiership with only 3 goals scored in open play. Spuds could never be on the way down as they've never been up.

  39. Stevieo

    Oct 28, 2013, 19:45 #40980

    Mike, we do take the League Cup seriously. We have made the quarter finals of it for the last 10 years. Not even Fergie managed that feat. Don’t you remember when we beat Reading last year how this statistic was used to praise Wenger. It’s funny, but when we sent our first team out at 4th Division Bradford last season, I don’t recall the Wenger apologists pulling Wenger up on that team selection. It’s also funny that when Wenger sent out the first team against Brum in the final with Barca coming up, the apologists didn’t criticise Wenger either. In fact, as I recall, the general feeling was once we do actually win something, it will breed a winning mentality and a hunger for more success. And now as Mike goes along to the game and hopes that Wenger puts a strong team out tomorrow he is scoffed at by those that are happy for our malaise to continue. Let’s see if Wenger has learnt his lesson from putting out strong teams in last year’s run. Who’d have thought when our first eleven trotted out at Bradford last year, the demands of that game would derail our season, and once again we would end up potless.

  40. Westlower

    Oct 28, 2013, 19:30 #40979

    Finsbury Joe, Lucky for you AVB slept with the ref to be gifted a penalty against Hull. Ironic that Bale for all his diving never won a penalty last season, perhaps he's lousy in bed? Given your club hasn't won the League for 52 years it's hard to judge if they've ever been in decline? What's a blip Joe? Winning the League in 61 probably qualifies. Desperate stuff for you to mention that we 'nearly lost' as that means we didn't lose. It's called a win Joe!

  41. Andre Villas-boas

    Oct 28, 2013, 18:32 #40978

    Finsbury Joe- "We looked like the away team. We played in a difficult atmosphere with almost no support", "We don't need the negativity of today", "We didn't have the support we should have done. There was much anxiety from the stands, the players had to do it alone. We spoke about it at half-time. I told the players that we would have to do it on our own. They had to dig deep and look for the strength within themselves. They also believed that it's not easy to play in this stadium when the atmosphere is like this". Very very embarrassing.

  42. maguiresbridge gooner

    Oct 28, 2013, 18:03 #40976

    Gare K, excellent shout mate totally agree. He's lost the right to pick and choose and has some way to go to earn it back. And you'd think wenger and his ego would like to do something about this record that exists, and also his apologists would be keen for their messiah to put it right who twenty six hours before the match even kicks off are writing it off. There's nothing like getting the excuses in early.

  43. Finsbury Joe

    Oct 28, 2013, 17:22 #40975

    As much as I wish Wenger to stay and cement his true legacy, I fear any chance of winning a cup under this manager will now always be a dream rather than reality. It is a myth that Wenger does not try in the domestic cups, he does, it is just that his refusal to prepare for other teams has led to defeats where he was tactically outsmarted by the likes of Blackburn, Bradford and very nearly Leeds and Ipswich. The man and the club inhabit the Stone Age. Look at the medical team chosen, directed and managed by wenger.....flamini was honed into such condition, he lasted all of 7 minutes against Palace. Don't be fooled by blips, Arsenal are a club in decline. Still, at least another trophy to go for by Feb, yes, the Europa Cup, mind you, no chance of winning that either, just look who they will have to beat to win it.

  44. Westlower

    Oct 28, 2013, 16:58 #40974

    Jeff, I agree with most of your sentiments in wanting to beat Chelsea for all the obvious reasons but winning on Saturday remains far more important than winning tomorrow. I realise bookies odds are turbulent and I've quoted the snap shot odds as they stand today. When was the last time we were half the odds of Man U in PL betting? If we didn't have so many long term injuries we would have been in a very strong position tomorrow. We could have played the following: Fabianski, Jenkinson, Mertesacker, Vermaelen, Monreal, Flamini, Diaby, Ox, Rosicky/Gnabry, Bendtner/Podolski, Walcott. Unfortunately I believe Chelsea only have one long term injury so they'll be much stronger than us. With Arteta suspended, we are where we are, and simply cannot risk any more injuries before Liverpool, BD & OT. Frustratingly, if we lose to Chelsea we've just got to take it on the chin and go again on Saturday. 25 points before we go to BD & OT next week will be a big boost regardless of the Chelsea result. Even if we lose at OT we'll still only be 1 point of the top should we beat Liverpool.

  45. jeff wright

    Oct 28, 2013, 16:22 #40971

    Westflower ,bookies odds are like the wind ( plenty of that about at the mo,and that's just on here!) if we beat the car-thieves at the weekend and other results go our way then our title odds will shorten, if we drop points though then they will lengthen. Champs League same scenario - a bad away result in our first away game will increase the odds ,likewise a good result shorten them . I'm assuming that we will win our home game but as you say in football anything can happen. Both clunking Dortmund and Napoli are poor travellers on the road - which makes the defeat at home to the Germans even more galling, however, both sides are in horse-racing parlance a stone better at home. Both the away games will be tough and no matter what the bookies say we are no certainties to get enough points to qualify . Backing at odds on is a fools game - and they do say that when it comes to gambling that a fool and his money are easily parted. With Mourinho claiming that he will put out a weaker side than he would if the tie was played on Wednesday - this gives Wenger a great chance to progress in the League Cup and to inflict a first ever for Wenger defeat on Mourinho and his irritating gloating Chelsea supporters . Resting players in the past midweek has often back-fired when we then play in the league at the weekend. The defeat to Hull a few years back at home on a Saturday night is one occassion - we were heavy odds on to win that game but ended up losing it. Sometimes it's best to keep momentum going and losing to Chelsea tomorrow night would mean we have lost our last two games at home - with an in-form Suarez and Liverpool next up . I don't even want to think about that ,so let's stuff Chelsea and go into the Liverpool game on a high.

  46. Ron

    Oct 28, 2013, 15:56 #40970

    Westlower - i nor anybody else is saying that we play the 'same' players every game as you well know. The team you wd put put however is one that Chelsea would expect to hammer 7-0 probably! How would that then affect your precious over worked players in your title and CL glory push? I hope Wenger doesnt end up in the Europa Cup, but not for your reasons. The fact is that Wenger screwed up last time he was in it and he d maybe worsen his showing in it if thats where we ended up again. The truth is that its the only euro tourny Arsenal could reasonably expect to win!

  47. Westlower

    Oct 28, 2013, 15:37 #40968

    For those who've already written AFC out of the CL, I'll remove my opinions and quote the hard nosed bookies odds as to our chances of silverware. You may be surprised to learn we are only 3/1 to win Group F and 4/6 to qualify for the knockout stage. Anything is possible in knockout football. I was invited to watch Liverpool v Juventus quarter final match in a private box in 2005 surrounded by scousers. I remember telling them they had no chance of winning the competition but lo and behold! We are 5/1 to win the PL, Liverpool 8/1, Man U 10/1. We are 7/1 for both the FA Cup & LC. According to the bookies our best chance of winning anything is the PL. RON, we certainly won't sustain a PL run if the 'idle bast...s' are expected to play in every game. This is not 1971, when 11 knackered players were often playing 11 other knackered players when fixture congestion kicked in. The only thing worse than playing in the LC is having to play in the Europa Cup, aka Spuds, Thursday & Sundays. That would seriously impede our chances of winning the PL, so we HAVE to qualify from Group F. We can ill afford to linger in the LC, 8 years waiting or not. Wenger has to play the reserves tomorrow as it's the only sensible option and Mourinho will do the same.

  48. Kayode

    Oct 28, 2013, 15:23 #40966

    Spaced and westlower, Its good to be optimistic,but try put some reality in it. For over 8 years,AFC is trophyless and still going by reality,starting from the minors is more of it. How can u be so sure resting players on tuesday would make you beat a club on saturday. The mentality is really needed in this AFC of ours,extending to the fans as well. AFC has a considerable number of players aside the 1st 11. Vermelean,Gnabry,Monreal could be used to rest some players instead of a total overhauling of the team which will bring a 'defeat with pride' like it is every season(saying words like 'at least the young players tried',it was not a full arsenal team') correct me if I'm wrong. Winning chelsea is a mentality that the team would take along with them to face the on-fire liverpool,fielding a B-side team on tuesday is an evidence of the continual retrogression from immediate seasons in terms of trophies. Like Wenger said,Let's win what's in front of us and I see some peeps saying we should face PL

  49. Danny

    Oct 28, 2013, 15:17 #40965

    You got to be realistic here This game is the start of the downward spiral with Arsenal. No chance here with Chelsea. They are too strong Our second team is crap and to Young and now we here Wenger has given this Gnarby a long contract. From what i have seen, he average at best and will never succeed here.

  50. Gare K

    Oct 28, 2013, 15:17 #40964

    I’ll be at the Chelsea game too hoping for a win but to be honest, with the side Wenger is likely to put out, it could be that Wenger will extend his not-so-great record against the drama queen Mourinho. But I hope I’m wrong as I can’t stand Mourinho and hate the idea of Chelsea fans giving it large against us yet again, especially on our turf. I’m appalled but not surprised that some Gooners think this tie is some sort of distraction. To me, these people are hypocrites. You criticise (rightly so in my book) Gooners who wish for us to lose in the hope that it would force Wenger out but you wouldn’t mind if that drama queen from the Bridge puts Wenger is his pocket yet again. Remind me how many times has Wenger beaten Mourinho? Considering we haven’t won anything major trophy since 2005 (finishing 4th place ISN’T a trophy), then why shouldn’t we take this game seriously? A win would only enhance our prospects of ending this barren run but a defeat could potentially have serious repercussions. I don’t seem to remember our players bouncing back immediately from the Wembley debacle of 2011 and that took months for it to shaken out of them. Yes, we are contenders for the Premier League and how long that will continue is anyone’s guess but the European Cup? Bitch please! Wenger’s record in that competition is average and he’s already making very hard work of a very difficult group. Not that I think we’re doomed to go out in the group stages but looking at it from an objective perspective and not with rose-tinted glasses. For me, there are a quite a few teams in this season’s European Cup who are better than us. We haven’t won a knockout tie on aggregate since 2010 and yet according to some Gooners, we are the team to beat. As the old saying, you couldn’t make it up. If domestic cups are good enough for the likes of Mourinho, Guardiola, Heycknes & Ferguson et al, who according to the Wenger apologists, are all inferior managers to Wenger, then they should be good enough for our manager too. Wenger has no right to pick and choose what trophies to win per season (and unlike those guys, he hasn’t won a European trophy either let alone the European Cup). He lost that right a few years ago. Come on you Gunners! Let’s silence those Chelsea rent boys!

  51. Lord Froth

    Oct 28, 2013, 14:49 #40962

    Ron, Arsenal are a professional football club and are still in the CL so of course they 'could' win it. The odds of them pulling it off might be unlikely but considering the quality of some teams that have won it over the years it's not impossible. I don't think it's likely but if there was no hope then it's sort of pointless to invest time watching the games.

  52. Jeff wright

    Oct 28, 2013, 14:42 #40961

    There are obviously some wind-up merchants Jack who are doing some Wenger bashing - but most of his critics just want to see him justify his 7.5m a year wages by winning something other than a 4th place finish for a Champions League play-off. We can't all be blind useless little sheep going ba ba ba. like you do Jack . Any mug can do that Jack - so if the cap fits then I suggest that you wear it on your rather big silly head. The time to start thinking about winning the Champions League is in the final next May - however we are not even certainties to get out of the group stage . I hope we do qualify for the knock-out round because the Ropey Cup is awful - tbh Jack I would sooner we were in the League Cup rather than having to do all that tiring travelling to far flung places to play obscure sides that no one has ever heard off.

  53. Ron

    Oct 28, 2013, 14:22 #40960

    Westlower - Id love to know how you deduce that Arsenal can actually win the CL? Can you enlighten us or is it just Club pride and self impressed delusion? The League Cup takes 6 games to win unless im mistaken, perhaps you can explain why todays players cant play such games and still compete in the CL and PL. I cant figure it. In my view if they cant, theyre idle bast---s in my view, aided and abetted by a coach who promotes the very defeatism that you accuse some of us of. Top spot now after beating 8-9 low grade Clubs suggests we can win the title as you say. Rational cold deduction says that the players wont sustain it based on past performances though. Add to this, the slip shods showings of all the other Clubs, bar arguably perhaps Liverpool might mean that with a fair wind the Title is attaianble. Perhpas you can explain why you seem so confident that Arsenal can win the title.Wheres your evidence to be confident? It seems more like blind hope to me.

  54. Jack

    Oct 28, 2013, 14:19 #40959

    I have noticed that the Wenger out folk are very similar to the average 'hush hush grumble fan' AVB was moaning about on Sunday at the Lane. Completely USELESS and better of joining forces with their Spud Middlesex cricket mates.

  55. Tony Evans

    Oct 28, 2013, 14:04 #40958

    Spaced and Westlower - Based on the evidence of the past 8 seasons and the threadbare nature of the squad (barring attacking midfielders) the more pragmatic realists amongst us are quite rightly saying let's not throw away a trophy that we have a great chance of winning, to concentrate on two that we have very little chance of winning. Let's get the 8 year no trophy monkey off our back and learn to walk before we can run. If we do fail to get out of the CL group, or fail at the last 16 stage as usual if we do;and start slipping out of contention in the league (I mean for the top spot not 4th place), a possible League Cup final to look forward to should not be so easily dismissed at this early stage of the season. I am sure that is what Wenger will do though.

  56. Westlower

    Oct 28, 2013, 13:41 #40956

    How demoralising to hear that Arsenal supporters don't believe we're capable of winning either the CL or PL. Of course Wenger has to prioritise and rotate his squad, as will all the other top teams in LC games. Surely none of you expect us to play more than 2/3 players who'll be playing against Liverpool. Is beating Chelsea more important than beating Liverpool? The LC is an annoying extra competition that has no place for any team playing in the Euro competitions. The longer we stay in it the more we compromise our chances in PL/CL. AVB is complaining today about the effect of negative supporters on his team, ditto AFC. Moyes is quoted after the Stoke game, "it was a win in the PL, they are hard to come by & they are not easy." Given our position leading the PL we need to exit the LC as quickly as possible, tomorrow will do nicely!

  57. Spaced

    Oct 28, 2013, 13:31 #40955

    What a ridiculous defeatist article. We are currently top of the league and have a good chance at CL progression but you'd rather us forget those trophies and concentrate on the league cup? What planet are you on? I want us to win the league cup as much as anyone, but with some big games immediately after Tuesday, it makes total sense to me to field a reserve side.

  58. maguiresbridge gooner

    Oct 28, 2013, 12:44 #40953

    It's hard to remember when we won any trophy Mike so yes F*** the CL we're not going to win it anyway and all the money we've made by being in it hasn't rectified that.What gives OGL the right to prioritise (for his Holy grail?) we haven't earned that right man u and the chavs have they've won it (and so have Birmingham and a few others) and a hell of a lot more to go with it and they'll still go for it. We've been pot less for eight going on nine years with humiliations thrown in lets get some pride back and at least go for the one/ones we have a chance of winning and the COC is one of those, and yes it will be a piece of silverware for the supporters (even though it's mickey mouse to some and they turn their nose up at it, but i bet they'd be celebrating like the rest of us if we won it)after all this time and we should be all up for it and so should the players as it might give them a winning mentality and a real taste of/for success and they can have something to show when their celebrating and bouncing.

  59. Westlower

    Oct 28, 2013, 12:38 #40951

    Possible team for tomorrows Micheal Mouse Cup. Fabianski, Jenkinson, Mertesacker, Vermaelen, Monreal, Rosicky, Frimpong, Eisfeld, Gnabry, Bendtner, Ryo.

  60. Bard

    Oct 28, 2013, 12:14 #40950

    Interesting dilemma Mike. Winning the CL seems unlikely judged on last Tuesdays game and I would be very surprised if we win the PL" although we are making a good fist of it so far. So realistically our best chance is the Captial one cup. So what does the boss do? We need all the big guns to beat Chelsea not a bunch of kids. Hope springs eternal but it's more likely to be kids tomorrow and a scrap for 4th place. Sounds familiar.

  61. Jeff wright

    Oct 28, 2013, 11:15 #40947

    Good post Mike ,I agree 100% with your views. Yes it is time for a reality check and time to start trying to win trophies,rather than just competing for 4th place in the Prem with the lowly spuds. As it happens we have a better chance than them anyway of getting 4th place so why not add a domestic cup to that as well. The League Cup will be as you say winnable if we turn over Chelsea tomorrow night at home. Wenger's yet to win a game against Mourinho - so a double whammy is involved here - and little things can mean a lot in the long-run. We don't want to hear excuses about why we sahoulnt be taking the League Cup seriously either because Wenger puts out strong sides in the silly Emirates Cup - albeit he has failed to win the last two shows. on So come on Arsene get your finger out and start on a run to Wembley to win some proper silverware to put in that empty Emirates trophy cabinet.

  62. Lord Froth

    Oct 28, 2013, 9:58 #40946

    Good point Ron. Chelsea have Newcastle and West Brom in the league next. We have two tougher matches so I can't see Mourinho not believing that they have a good chance to overhaul us in the league over the next fortnight.

  63. Ron

    Oct 28, 2013, 9:37 #40945

    It ll be a weakened team as sure as night follows day.Looking at Nov fixtures it looks like a tournament that will be aborted. Perhaps Chelsea might ue a weakeed team though as well? Theyve not the same durability in their sqaud as they used to have when they seemED to field full teams in every game.

  64. Lord Froth

    Oct 28, 2013, 9:30 #40944

    I want Arsenal to win any competition that they compete in but considering our league position and the fact that we have Liverpool, Dortmund and Manchester United in the next 3 games I really think that Wenger will think he has bigger fish to fry this season. In the last few seasons when we've obviously been struggling then the League Cup seemed our best bet but at the moment we've been playing some great football interspersed with results when we've not been playing well which is what we are always told is what champions are capable of doing. Whilst I'd like to win the LC can you imagine if Wenger fielded a full strength team and we had injuries to Ozil, Giroud or Ramsey? I don't usually like it when Wenger fields a team of too much youth in the LC but this season with momentum in the league behind us we really have to take a gamble one way or another. History shows that Wenger will favour the league and CL.

  65. Tony Evans

    Oct 28, 2013, 8:55 #40942

    Wise words, Mike, and I agree that tomorrow is an important game and one which I hope Wenger does not throw away by playing a weakened team.

  66. Westlower

    Oct 28, 2013, 8:52 #40941

    You sound apologetic that we're top of the PL by stating we are where we should be by default of an easy fixture list. How about some belief in the team that we CAN win the PL. If we're not careful all this negative anxiety & doubt will transfer itself to the players on the pitch. Grow some balls and find some ambition beyond the LC. Sorry that your ego gets bruised by the media repeatedly telling us it's x amount of years since you won something but let's focus on something worth winning. Tomorrows game will be played between the out of favour squad players and not too much consequence should be read into it. Your desire to win the LC over being a financially solvent club is the thinking of a supporter of Birmingham or Portsmouth, both now broken clubs since their cup success. In my opinion teams playing in Europe should be barred from playing in the LC.

  67. Jack

    Oct 28, 2013, 8:10 #40939

    I cannot recall a final in 2012.I thought it was a Druids, Victims event that year.