Plus Ca Change?

Online Ed: Another trip to Old Trafford, another defeat



Plus Ca Change?


Hopes were high going into the trip to Manchester thanks to Arsenal’s form so far this season, but the outcome was a familiar one. The visitors were not helped by a bug that accounted for Mertesacker and Rosicky, although with the return of Flamini, one suspects Rosicky might have been rested anyway. However, the absence of Mertesacker was a huge worry in a fixture of this significance, and there was debate in the aftermath of this game whether or not his presence might have made a difference to the result.

Possibly. Whether or not he would have challenged Van Persie for the winning goal we cannot know, but what is certain is that the zonal marking system Arsenal use does not allow players to impede a run like that the former Gunners captain made to score. Is Steve Bould the man who decides that Arsenal will defend this way? Many would like a return to the man to man marking system that would seem to give Arsenal more chance at set pieces on the assumption that everyone is switched on.

Up until the moment of the goal, Arsenal defended well as a unit, bolstered by the return of Flamini and all the attacking players getting back to do their bit. Flamini picked up a fifth booking this season to mean a suspension when Southampton visit. It feels like a long time since an Arsenal player picked up five yellows and received a ban, although I would hazard a guess that the last name to suffer this in a Gunners’ shirt was Alex Song. In a rather perverted way though, it feels good to see Flamini picking up cautions, because it means he is doing what he is good at – stopping the opposition in their tracks by fair means or foul.

In attack, the visitors created very little in the first half, and it felt a bit similar to recent visits to United in their inability to really make an impact. It was, of course, a similar story to the Dortmund first half, although this time, the defence was breached. One wondered if flu was responsible for a rather indistinguished performance from Ozil.

After the interval, Arsenal put their game together more and enjoyed greater possession and penetration. However, an unfortunate moment saw Vermaelen and Ozil standing over a free kick about 35 yards out, and the Arsenal captain pulling rank on the £42 million man to blast a shot well over the bar. How many of these does he get on target? Surely better to let the number 11 try to find the target?

I could be wrong, but I believe Gibbs’ effort after 75 minutes was the first shot the visitors enjoyed on target. It was not really good enough. Sagna did ping in a couple of excellent crosses, but they eluded everybody including the Arsenal forwards.

As the clock ticked down, it all felt a bit familiar. Hoping Wenger’s team could just get a bit of luck and a clear attempt on goal, but invariably snuffed out by United’s defence. Subs were tried, and although Wilshere and Gnabry produced a couple of moments, they didn’t lead to anything. As for Nicklas Bendtner, he was presumably thrown on to benefit from crosses that were to rain into the box, but had minimal impact, exposing the lack of options once you look past Giroud.

However, at least it wasn’t all bad news. Chelsea dropped two points at home, whilst Manchester City lost away. If Tottenham are still considered title contenders, they lost at home. What Arsenal must do is to continue taking maximum points off the lesser teams, precisely because their rivals are struggling to do just that. Then, these matches with the contenders will not be so costly when points are dropped. I recall Manchester United themselves winning the title one recent season and having a very poor record against the teams around them, simply because they did so well against everyone else.

So this defeat isn’t terminal. Taking the fixture list at the start of the season, and regardless of form, it is expected. It does show that Arsenal might struggle against better organized defences, but what they do at home against these top sides can compensate. They must regroup and win when Southampton visit in a fortnight’s time, and ensure that the defeat to United is just a blip rather than the shape of things to come. They will have Mertesacker back, and hopefully some stronger options on the bench. They are still two points clear at the top, and it is too early to draw conclusions from their first league defeat since the visit of Aston Villa. Better to win two and lose one that win one and draw two. Staying unbeaten isn’t always what it is cracked up to be. Ensuring when points are taken that they are draws rather than wins is ultimately more important than suffering the odd defeat.

It just didn’t happen for Arsenal at Old Trafford. Whether that was flu or lack of quality, time will tell. The one annoying thing about this fixture is that, Van Persie and Rooney aside, this is not a very good United side. Still, one can say the same about last season, and they still won the title comfortably.

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comments

  1. BADARSE

    Nov 16, 2013, 7:11 #41914

    Black Hei I agree. So stay with your truths.

  2. Black Hei

    Nov 15, 2013, 6:15 #41853

    I guess everyone is just disappointed that we lost and is blowing steam here. The WO more than the AKB for good reason. As for whether Wenger did a good job or not, end of the day there will always be debate. There are many, for example, that say that Guardiola is a crappy manager. That he just got lucky because he inherited the first, second and third best footballers in the world. I think he is great. Just like I think Wenger is great. We all just have different yard sticks that's all.

  3. Chris

    Nov 14, 2013, 15:44 #41829

    FPGooner - That was a very long-winded way of calling me a 'Cult of Wenger' member! I find the short version just as compelling - i.e. not at all.... We find ourselves back to square one - you , just like SGRB, won't have it than anyone could support Wenger or say anything positive about the current regime, without it being due to their blinkered prejudices. I find that highly amusingly ironic.

  4. Amos

    Nov 14, 2013, 14:55 #41827

    The Sporting Intelligence report isn't a perfect piece of work FPGooner but it is pretty comprehensive. I did say it also provides scope for dissenters though but I'm not sure that the ROI example works. Indeed the conclusion of the report is that Arsenal have a better return from their investments than their rivals. That's definitely the case if look at fixed assets which the report doesn't consider at any length. It's a little different if you look at trophies won but clearly not true that the costs employed in winning them by ManU, Chelsea and City are less than we've employed in attempting to win them. The fact is that if we'd invested all of the revenues and cash reserves we have acquired and retain over the last 10 years we still wouldn't have been able to spend as much as the clubs above us have spent and on the basis of the relationship between spending and success highlighted in the report would not have achieved anything more than we had achieved yet would be more impoverished relatively than we are now. The issue to consider if whether we would have put ourselves in a weaker position to win trophies if we'd chased rainbows trying to usurp those clubs above us without comparable resources.

  5. Amos

    Nov 14, 2013, 14:38 #41824

    Logical fallacies are easy enough to distinguish from genuine argument but no you don't have to construct your arguments with reason and objectivity SGRB. Unless you're attempting to make a case for your arguments to be considered objective and reasoned that is. It doesn't matter greatly if you don't but there's little point preaching to others about bias and objectivity if you've no intention of practising what you preach when objecting to a point anyone else has made.

  6. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 14, 2013, 14:18 #41820

    Bloody hell, Amos. This isn't an academic journal and I don't have to argue within the ****eters that you set. Your 'logical fallacy' is my 'deductive reasoning'. You think there is 'no need' to explain prejudice, I find that highly convenient. We're coming at this from different, irresolvable angles so let's give it a rest now.

  7. FPGooner

    Nov 14, 2013, 13:57 #41814

    Chris, in response to your post #44651, you use the term 'perfectly valid verifiable statistical truths'. Wow, don't want to jump on your semantics, but using five words to try and hammer your point home doesn't make it any more credible. This site is great to discuss and exchange views with fellow gooners. There are occasional disagreements, but all in good spirit. Very rarely do people on here quote external sources to add credence to their arguments and then subsequently refer to it as gospel. For instance, Hugh McIlvanney wrote an excellent piece in the Sunday Times last year on Arsene Wenger and Arsenal entitled 'Surviving on past glories'. As with McIlvanney's pieces, it was superbly written, but I have no intention of ramming that down everyone's throats. I have read the Sporting Intelligence report; it is a good piece of work, but far from perfect. For instance, there is no mention on Return of Investment figures, i.e. how much has it cost Manure and Chelsea per trophy over the last few years, a damn sight less than it has cost us. I realise, as in 'The life of Brian', some people need to follow a messiah and I understand your need to do that, but as Mark Twain put it, there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

  8. Chris

    Nov 14, 2013, 12:47 #41807

    Yeah, whatever Joe. A perfect example of what? If your idea of fun is to split hairs in an attempt to portray another as shifting the goal posts, I'll leave you to it. I don't have time to ensure I precisely represent someone else's views when making such a summary, as I'm sure you can well appreciate. As for self-awareness - surely you are now joking, Glory Boy? You make a fuss because I don't respond to a quite frankly boring and outdated comment you make, then attempt to portray some minor inaccuracy in an off the cuff summary I make as a perfect illustration of some imaginary trait you like to tar me with, and you have the gall to come out with that?! I'll leave this now and won't be drawn futher, because like others before you, you're simply attempting to turn the 'debate' into a petty argument to avoid dealing with the issue(s) at hand. Fecking typical.

  9. Amos

    Nov 14, 2013, 12:38 #41806

    I'm prejudiced towards rational and reasoned argument SGRB but I don't only have prejudices I also have have many convictions (of the belief variety). Which is which can be determined by the strength and power of the argument or point made. There is no need to explain prejudice as it becomes apparent as the argument extends. Hence your attempt to portray the simple acknowledgement that Wenger should leave the club in better shape than he came in as 'eulogising' clearly demonstrates your prejudice against anything that might be construed as positive even if incontestably true. The debate clearly hasn't stretched far enough for you to see the fault lines in your position.

  10. Joe Bloggs

    Nov 14, 2013, 12:34 #41804

    No Chris,I didn't say there is anyone that believes that said figures have no relevance,I said there are many who don't believe the figures in isolation give a true picture. You really are a shocker aren't you, thisis a perfect example of why people get p****d off with you. As for your irate coment, well your lack of self awareness continues to amaze and amuse in equal measure.

  11. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 14, 2013, 12:19 #41802

    But you don't admit what those prejudices ARE, Amos. I just stated my position, so it seems quite clear you're the one 'struggling' with yours. Praising Wenger for the requirement to replace him would be a prime example of eulogising. However, your points are very well made, Amos, and it's not to detract from them to conclude that you are, indeed, a Kroenke/Wenger man. Thanks for a good, stretching debate.

  12. Amos

    Nov 14, 2013, 11:55 #41800

    I've already conceded that I have my prejudices SGRB. You're the one struggling with yours. That shouldn't stop anyone putting forward an argument or an opinion but your responses have largely been nothing other than objections to those put forward. You won't have to defend yourself, if that's what you feel the need to do, in the same manner if you have an alternative manner. I've already said that it would be easier to replace Wenger now (due largely to his own stewardship as he would leave the club in far better shape than when he came in) than it might have been a few seasons back but you haven't made a compelling case for it other than 'thinking' it might be time for a change What you have done, as so many do, is simply to make a bogus assertion that any supportive arguments can be dismissed simply on the premise that the proponent must be a 'Kroenke/Wenger man'. It's much the same way that conspiracy theorists dismiss reasoned argument by claiming that those opposing must by definition be part of the conspiracy. In short you use logical fallacies in place of genuine argument in attempting to make a point.

  13. Chris

    Nov 14, 2013, 11:53 #41799

    Comment 44678 should be addressed to Joe Bloggs, obviously. SGRB - I think you're being disingenuous by suggesting that the nature of points Amos makes reveals him as a Wenger / Kroenke man (just as you have done before with me...). You are attempting to portray him as someone who has made his mind up and is looking to fit the facts to his pre-dispositions (again, just as you have done with me). Presumably you do this because you can't accept that anyone can come up with an objectively formed opinion that counters your own, or because the existence of such an opinion makes you uncomfortable. The reality is that, as Amos has pointed out, that accusation could just as well be levelled at yourself.

  14. Chris

    Nov 14, 2013, 11:42 #41798

    What point is that? That not everyone believes that points to spend ratios are relevant to assessing Wenger's performance? I'd strongly dispute that but don't wish to get into YET ANOTHER points per spend debate (which we are ALL bored of), hence choosing to ignore your comment. I'd suggest you grow up - all this talk of 'glory' and getting irate when someone doesn't address each of your points suggests you're on here for the wrong reasons....

  15. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 14, 2013, 11:38 #41797

    I'm not sure how many times I can be expected to defend myself in the exact same manner. Where you're really stretching the credulity of others, Amos, is in asking us to believe that an intelligent fellow like yourself puts in all this time and effort just to make 'simple points' for their own sake, in a sort of disinterested manner. Just as the nature of the points I make demonstrate I think Wenger should go (though right now would be unhelpful), so the nature of the points you make demonstrate a Kroenke/Wenger man. I'd imagine many others here can see that too. Doubtless you will now go on to say that even if a bias was held (without admiting you hold it), that doesn't detract from the value of the point - and youre right, it doesn't. It adds your underlying intent.

  16. Amos

    Nov 14, 2013, 11:36 #41796

    Not an accountant's eye Joe just a commercial one but thanks for the reasoned response. Sadly in order to be a successive football club we have to a successful business, assuming we're forgoing the billionaire benefactor route which, though rather late, football now seems set against to some extent. On that basis if you wish to understand some of the decisions made, even if they're wrong decisions as invariably some will be, then you need to understand the commercial and professional background to them. To be a successful football business you need a successful team but in order to have that then the commercial decisions have first to be right.

  17. Joe Bloggs

    Nov 14, 2013, 11:15 #41790

    Chris- The point I made in my last couple of lines is perfectly fair, reasonable and objective, which is probaly why you did what you accuse others of doing and ignored it. I certainly dont believe Amos is a spin doctor, he's simply looking at Arsenal through an accountants eye,which he's perfectly entitled to do.

  18. Amos

    Nov 14, 2013, 11:10 #41789

    Aren't you just guilty of your own declared crime of selecting quotes or statistics that just seem to support your bias SGRB? Not that those quotes aren't perfectly innocent even without the context. As you say they're there for all to see should they wish. On the other hand it should be easy for you to demonstrate how your remarks should be interpreted differently. Are supporters putting themselves on a different intellectual plane if they refer to players as 'mentally fragile' or are you confusing yourself with your own arguments?

  19. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 14, 2013, 10:39 #41786

    A couple of other quotes that illustrate how Amos views others: "These are the good times, you just don't know it" "I accept it was confused enough to confuse yourself" The difference here is, where I use direct quotes from Amos against him, he is reduced to interpreting my remarks in a way that suits his argument.

  20. Amos

    Nov 14, 2013, 10:10 #41783

    You were objecting to the possibility that a simple statement of fact might be interpreted by some as a positive SGRB and fearing that others might draw a conclusion you were not happy with. The sale of Fabregas and RvP doesn't qualify the argument at all (but it does say something about player contract law!)though if it does then it's because you saw player sales as a revenue stream that should have been taken into account. You can't have it both ways. Similarly your invention of different intellectual planes is based on a misrepresentation - yet another straw man argument of which you're so fond. I simply challenged the oft repeated and unsupported claim that players are 'mentally fragile' with the way some supporters crumble so readily at the first sign of any set back.

  21. Chris

    Nov 14, 2013, 9:58 #41781

    SGRB - I think if you are truly honest, and can cast your mind back to the fairly but not-so-distant past, I'm sure you'll remember that you were just as guilty of using similarly dismissive phrases at the same time as attempting to bend the conversation to obscure (to me at least) philosophical concepts to avoid having to deal with the issue. Incidentally, the selling of RVP in particular but Fab too were events that no Arsenal fan can recollect without a deep feeling of discomfort and unhappiness - of course we'd all love to have them still at the club. But that doesn't detract from the 'big picture' argument that Amos is giving based on the stats. So in that sense, you were arguing on different levels and therefore to an extent at cross-purposes.

  22. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 14, 2013, 9:43 #41780

    Seems like this debate has a new lease of life! As Chris and Amos both well know, I haven't 'refused to accept' his stats, rather introduce some points of my own, as I felt those stats standing alone gave a false impression. I think part of the issue was arguing at cross-purposes. Amos was looking at data sets, I was looking at the football. So, where I see the selling of the likes of Fabregas and RVP as highly significant events at the club, Amos sees just another revenue stream. And Chris, if you mean by 'tone' Amos' attempts to place himself on a higher intellectual plane than others (e.g. the 'mental fragility' of those who have doubted club direction) then no, I wasn't a fan of that any more than when you used to attempt to do it with comments along the lines of 'lack the capacity to hold in their mind..'

  23. Chris

    Nov 14, 2013, 9:29 #41777

    Joe Bloggs - you really are from the SGRB school aren't you? Yes that's right, I come on here for anonymous glory to fill the huge cavern in my otherwise worthless and insignificant life. Shall we agree on that? What is pretty clear is that you, SGRB, Green Hut aren't remotely interested in objectivity, only in belittling those who give an objective argument that you don't like. Incidentally, you're perfectly correct that the headline figure is more obvious - in fact it's the only one that would have occurred to me to look at. Whereas Amos, by virtue of his better understanding and knowledge on these matters, was looking at the more stringent but technically correct underlying figures. Not exactly the actions of the spin-doctor that he is being portrayed as, is it?

  24. Joe Bloggs

    Nov 14, 2013, 8:47 #41776

    Chris- So we're agreed, you just jumped on the back of Amos's work and tried to gain yourself some reflected glory by adding the more obvious headline ffigure.And Amos hasn't been promoting points per spend, he denied that the sporting intelligence survey should be pigeonholed as such so you can have all that glory to yourself as many believe points per spend as a stand alone figure does not give a true reflection of Wengers achievements or failures.

  25. Chris

    Nov 14, 2013, 7:47 #41772

    FPGooner - is that some kind of joke? Your post couldn't be wider of the mark if you tried. SGRB has consistently tried to undermine Amos based on issues such as his tone of voice simply because Amos ' points run counter to his own opinion. He has even refused to accept Amos' perfectly valid verifiable statistical truths, which he finds inconvenient. It is precisely because SGRB always deals with folk who provide strong arguments that run counter to his own in this underhand way that I have decided to stand with Amos, rather than because I necessarily agree with everything he says and how he presents it. Perhaps if you and some others tried to look objectively into the facts yourself, rather than running with the herd like sheep, you might actually see there's substance in what he says, even if you choose not to agree with the conclusions. Bah!

  26. Chris

    Nov 14, 2013, 6:57 #41771

    Joe Bloggs - yes, check back and take a look son. I then went and researched the figures he gave, and as is alluded to above, and was actually able to take it a step further to show that his stat held when headline figures were used. Also - as Gree Hut separately alludes to above - I personally researched the points per spend issue well over a year ago and have been reminded folk of that ever since. Might be an idea for you to try to get your facts right before slinking on here making comments like that again.

  27. Amos

    Nov 13, 2013, 23:50 #41770

    I don't see the same objectivity in SGRB posts as you do FPGooner. Indeed to be have made a final judgement his mind would have to be closed. Not usually a great precondition for objectivity. There isn't a great deal of objectivity in your unsupported assertion that I am worshipping Wenger either for that matter. Anyway as SGRB says the comments stand for others to use their own judgement. Like many though you do make the mistake of believing that disagreement has some greater merit than agreement just by virtue of the fact that you're disagreeing. The issue isn't so much whether you agree or disagree with the actions of the club and/or manager or not but whether you can support an opinion that can be positive, negative or neutral. Determining whether anyone is blindly obedient or in blinkered opposition is measured by the strength of their argument or counter argument not simply whether they are for or against anything yet that seems to be the sort of reasoning you're employing.

  28. FPGooner

    Nov 13, 2013, 23:25 #41769

    Chris/ Amos, I have always found comments put forward by SGRB to be reasoned and objective. Where I think you two may have issue with him is that while you are prepared to 'get behind the club' as AKBs so succinctly put it, and worship Wenger as he presides over the club's gradual demise while earning £7.5 million a year, many (myself included) do not fall into that school of blind obedience.

  29. Joe Bloggs

    Nov 13, 2013, 22:48 #41765

    Chris- Really? That's strange, because a few weeks ago when Amos first stated that Arsenal have spent more in the last 5 transfer windows than the previous 16 combined I distinctly remember you asking him for clarification and explanation before you accepted his word. You had no idea, so please stop telling fibs.

  30. Chris

    Nov 13, 2013, 22:12 #41764

    joe Bloggs - That's where you're wrong chum. I've actually taken the trouble to research many of the things Amos has talked about, in some cases months or longer ago. Have you? Or are you just letting your preconceptions do the talking?

  31. Joe Bloggs

    Nov 13, 2013, 19:04 #41754

    Chris- Enough gushing already, Amos could be eloquently lying through his teeth and you woundn't have a clue.

  32. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 13, 2013, 18:27 #41751

    Amos,naturally you disagree but there is the evidence of your comments to back me up and I think others will recognise what I'm saying. As I've clearly made my final judgment on you, you can stop trying to engage me now. Chris, or 'mini-Amos', how amusing that you should pop up right at the end.

  33. Amos

    Nov 13, 2013, 15:52 #41737

    I haven't argued that there's a 'golden era of investment' at all SGRB. That's just another straw man you've put up. I've simply pointed to the fact. What anyone makes of it is up to them but it exists as a fact. Pointing to player sales is no more relevant than pointing to sales of lager or replica shirts, revenues from broadcasting or sponsorship. There's more than one revenue stream. Most telling, and mildly amusing, is the anxiety the existence of such a fact seems to evoke from you. It's almost as though it is impossible for you to accept that there is anything at all that could be positive about the club, its manager and owners. There's nothing in any of my posts that eulogises or defends anyone but your concern that it might be seen that way is telling.

  34. Rocky RIP

    Nov 13, 2013, 15:34 #41736

    @Tom - very true about Finsbury Joe. He's beneath contempt and not worth bothering with. No matter how many times he's told to bore off, he keeps re-surfacing and polluting this site like the other vermin who slip under the radar and spread negativity about our beloved club. Might have something to do with that lot having jack **** to crow about. 9 goals scored in the league this season?

  35. Chris

    Nov 13, 2013, 14:34 #41728

    SGRB - There's nothing in Amos' tone or style of expression that you would find even remotely worrying or offensive if he wasn't such a well thought-out and articulate exponent of arguments that put the current regime in a good light. I see you've now switched from claiming you are only trying to undermine because you don't like his 'voice' to arguing that he is being selective and biased. If the latter is true,it is no more so than of yourself, as he has pointed out. These tactics you use in the face of objective arguments that worry your own convictions are blatant, well-worn and well-known. we've been here before, haven't we?

  36. Amos

    Nov 13, 2013, 14:08 #41726

    Neither Arshavin nor Squillaci fell into the 'chosen' years but certainly in the case of Arshavin he was a very expensive dud indeed. Over his contract, and taking account of loans we were able to arrange for duds like Denilson, Bendtner and Chamakh he cost more than those combined. Other duds like Adebayor have been more profitable though. There're swings and roundabouts. Player contracts aren't capital expenditure - they're intangible assets and accounted for as such. If you're comparing Arsenal's capital expenditure then you need to look at the stadium, and possibly the training camp, which is used often by visiting national teams, in order to determine whether Arsenal's capital expenditure program is as successful as those of other teams around us.

  37. Ron

    Nov 13, 2013, 13:58 #41725

    Amos - I will check it out if i get chance if only to find out how they define 'more effectively and efficiently than other Clubs'. Without reading it, just arriving at such a conclusion seems dubious no matter whatever and how many variables they factor in and apply. I say this as well,while pointing out that none of those players youve been careful to mention and select have yet achieved anything at all as is the case with all the purchases post Kroenke. Perhaps they interpret the words 'efficiently and effectively' differently to me. If i had nothing to show from my business from so many years of high capital expenditure, i wdt be claiming efficiency and neither would the accountants. I note you omitted Arshavin and Squllacci from your 'low cost' duds. You must be a wealthy man indeed.

  38. Amos

    Nov 13, 2013, 13:15 #41722

    To answer your question Ron, I suggest you take a look at the Sporting Intelligence report which concludes, in an independent and objective view, that Arsenal have spent the resources we have more effectively and efficiently than any of those other teams around us. At the same time if you look at the players we've bought over the 'chosen' years, including Flamini, Ozil, Poldolski, Giroud, Monreal, Cazorla, Arteta, Mertesacker, Ox the few low cost duds (and all teams have them but often have paid much more!)don't seem to be as bad (even including Gervinho who seems to be proving himself elsewhere) as those some other teams have overpaid for.

  39. Ron

    Nov 13, 2013, 13:02 #41717

    Amos - Your spend argument over the chosen years you speak of needs to be tempered by looking at who the money was spent on. You dont need your statistics, your eyes will do to reel off a lengthy and depressing list of players who werent much more than Championship players bought at higher level prices and thats being kind! Theres the nub of it. The Coach (who with respect your trying to glorify by hiding behind your stats) gambled on buying inadequate players who hadnt played to a sufficiently good level and were proved to be not fit for purpose. Stats dont win games, players do. Stats dont demarcate an effective Coach at a so called top Club from others, teams produced and honours won do and Wengers been given a latitude at Arsenal that i would suggest wouldnt near have been afforded to him at any Club of similar status, in their respective countries to Arsenal. That hes lasted for so long has been born of the romanticism that followed him from his first 8 years and hes still running on that 'fuel' as we speak due in large part to his willingness to toe the line of the Board without complaint. At his salary, thats not surprising but i would suggest that in his private moments, that even Arsene would at some time have raised an eybrow and smiled at just how hes survived.

  40. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 13, 2013, 12:48 #41715

    Amos, it's simple, material fact that players have been bought and players have been sold. However you wish to phrase that in accountancy speak, both are FOOTBALL facts. All I've done is seek to introduce the footballing fact that players - star players - have been sold during the last 5 transfer windows, as all you do is repeat the fact that there has been more player investment in the last 5 than the previous 16. I believe you do this to give a misleading impression that it's been a golden era of investment. I'll spell it all out for you: You are seeking to give an impression of someone who 'knows the truth' of matters AFC, through your prescriptive statements, through the stats you use. But the nature of the points you make - and your annoyance when other points are introduced e.g. to give a fuller picture of the last 5 transfer windows - demonstrate a Kroenke/Wenger man, all the way. Your primary Arsenal supporting interest is in defending and eulogising those two men. It's not a crime, so I think you should just come out and admit it. You'll feel better afterwards.

  41. Amos

    Nov 13, 2013, 12:22 #41711

    The fuller more rounded picture was given to you first time around SGRB. Income from player sales is current income used to discharge current liabilities reflected in the current years P&L account which is what is available to spend. On that measure the point is still supported. Player purchases are treated as future liabilities, recorded as intangible assets and amortised over the period of the contract and discharged against future income. That's why net transfer spend is an unworthy and biased indicator. This aspect is dealt with in the Sporting Intelligence report, yet another rounded and fuller palpably objective view, in a different way but making much the same point. Your insistence on a narrow measure that you do not even attempt to justify beyond the simplistic is simple everyday confirmation bias as it doesn't alter the material fact. That's where you are finding it difficult to grasp, whether wilfully or not, that you are at least as biased as anyone else on these forums so preventing you from seeing any view not in concert with your own other than as bias.

  42. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 13, 2013, 12:02 #41708

    It doesn't alter it, Amos, but is it part of a full rounded picture. That's the point I keep making which you seem unable to grasp, though wilfully I'd imagine, as I certainly wouldn't seek to cast aspersions on the intellect of anyone based on comments on a football blog.

  43. Amos

    Nov 13, 2013, 11:31 #41706

    You've also confirmed that it is fact SGRB but then confirm your own bias in failing to explain just how players sold alters the fact that we have spent more since Kroenke took control than in the previous 8 years combined - after all we sold players then too! When you're struggling to make a meaningful point as much as you are it is understandable that you'll wish to focus on how things are said rather than the substance of what is said. Inconvenient facts can then be dismissed purely on the straw man basis of 'bias' - at least sufficiently to be able to deceive yourself that is.

  44. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 13, 2013, 9:41 #41698

    It won't upset me Amos - it's good to see you yet again confirm the 'bias' I have about you. Everyone here knows the players that have been sold in the last 5 transfer windows, which anyone interested in giving a rounded and objective picture would also point out - at least occasionally.

  45. DW Thomas

    Nov 13, 2013, 2:33 #41689

    Wow! Never seen a list of responses quite this long. All this arguing is making me sleepy. So, lets just look at facts. By their wins, United and Chelsea have our number in head to head matches. We have won nothing in 8 years. Since the Invincibles, we have failed to win a PL or CL. Each year we falter when reinforcements were badly needed due to injuries or poor squad depth. When the summit of success is near, we f..k it up! I can run through them all, but we all know them. Whether you support Wenger or not, all of us want the team to do well. But it is our right, and in my opinion duty, to kick and scream when things are not right yet could be. Take Bendtner for example, coming on at the end to win a game. That's just having a laugh! If we proclaim to be serious title contenders, we need, no must, have a serious squad. Ozil was a start, but only a start. Someone earlier compared our top 2 attackers to all the others. We pale by comparison. In fact it is a joke. Giroud I really like and rate, but he is limited in what he can do. We desperately need a crafty player like Suarez to run at defenders and create something of nothing. Chelsea bought Eto'o and United got our best forward. Again, who do we have coming off the bench? What a slap in the face to any Arsenal fan, but especially those that have been loyal for all these years. Wenger has had his chances, again and again. Now it's time to ante up and kick in. Get us a trophy or its all Groundhog again.

  46. Amos

    Nov 12, 2013, 21:49 #41688

    @jeff wright. I am simply drawing your attention to the conclusions of the Sporting Intelligence report which, whether they spend more or less than us concludes that Spurs, Liverpool, ManU, City and Chelsea have achieved less than we have in proportion to what might have been expected from their level of spending. It's a rounded and objective analysis.I'm not dismissing it at all. It's true that Wenger, and others at the club, have generated more revenues than any previous managers. It's also true, at the risk of upsetting SGRB, not that that should prevent a good point from being made, we have spent more in the last 5 transfer windows than the previous 16 combined.

  47. BADARSE

    Nov 12, 2013, 21:18 #41687

    Now, now Tom. You are going to get me agreeing with you which will get me into trouble again, ha ha. On a more psychological level, as I posted earlier, what is it that fires people? Not content with all that we have at the Grove, then because of our business strategy and financial might, we shall just go on and on. Ninety five consecutive Top flight years will continue ad infinitum. Top of the pile at the moment, in the driving seat in our CL group, with injured key men buying extra time in their come back dates, due to the international break, you would think it would be wall to wall smiles. Not idiot grins, there is a difference, but genuine happiness, despite a momentary setback. Anyway chum, as I said, stop it!

  48. Man United Killer

    Nov 12, 2013, 20:18 #41686

    The game was lost before it started.The boys just fear Man United based on our most recent record against them and it was clear.Did anyone notice how much sideways and backward passing dominated our game-even for Ozil and Cazorla who are supposed to be running at opposition with ball.we dont have one single person who has the balls to do that game in game out.And then comes that extra pass every single time we are in opposition area. What hurts me is not that we lost against them but the fact that they will probably come to the Emirates and grab a draw or a win.We are NOT ready to be winners!Too weak minded.

  49. Tom

    Nov 12, 2013, 20:15 #41685

    It's funny how the views of Finsbury Joe a well known Spurs fan are not even contested by the angry Arsenal hordes. His views are the same as the anti Arsenal. Makes you wonder how many true Gunners fans there are who use this site after a defeat and how much closer some are to the Lane than the Grove.

  50. jeff wright

    Nov 12, 2013, 19:31 #41684

    Amos, you were using the lesser resources that Wenger has over the big three clubs to claim that he is doing better than them. However, when the same criteria is used to show Wenger's performances against clubs with less resources than he has you then dismiss this as being irrelevant ! The facts are that United have others in the past have always had bigger resources than us. In reality ,despite arguments to the contrary , Wenger's had more money available than any manager in the club's history over the past 8 years. That he chose not to use it,for reasons of his own , is down to him.

  51. BADARSE

    Nov 12, 2013, 19:30 #41683

    Two outcomes from the season when the dust has settled is we win it or we don't. Of course these statements are obvious and drawn in broad brush strokes, but as Bugs Bunny used to say, 'That's all folks!' Any mental fragility on show is not recognising this stark fact, and if recognised not dealing with it. I am as a child, along with my children and grandchildren. I am enjoying the moment, and each successive one. Great to at last be champions if it happens, but I am going to wring every last drop of enjoyment from what occurs between here and May. I feel genuinely saddened for any Arsenal fan who cannot, or will not, do likewise. You are only treading this way once gentlemen. As Pooh might say, 'Just be!'

  52. Jason B

    Nov 12, 2013, 19:19 #41682

    Crap game, crap performance (both teams).Already deleted from memory. Roll on Southampton on the 23rd.

  53. Westlower

    Nov 12, 2013, 19:01 #41681

    Surely we've learnt by now that a hard game midweek is the prelude to a mediocre performance in the following weekend game. Not just AFC, but all teams in Europe. Either by design or coincidence we happened to be playing at OT in the same way we played in Italy midweek prior to 2-8. In the latter occasion, Man U had a free week to prepare against playing a fatigued mismatched team, deplete of a number of regulars, lambs to the slaughter. On Saturday, as already mentioned in other posts, Man U had an extra 24 hours recovery & prep time + home advantage. What else could favour the home team? Throw in illness in the away camp! Any prep work was blown asunder late in the day, with team selection confined to the fit few. Arteta played with the effects of the illness that ailed BFG & Rosicky. We have another major problem in playing away to Napoli 48 hours before the away game at Man City. AFC are entitled to ask why our fixtures are arranged for visits to both Manchester clubs following CL games. Fergie used to scream the house down when the fixtures didn't help his club. Moyes & the Chosen One have followed suit this season. Until we field a balanced team that is picked to do a job rather than play who's left standing I'll reserve judgement on our title aspirations.

  54. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 12, 2013, 18:53 #41680

    I'd say they're quotes that are illustrative of your self-perception, Amos. I'd struggle to do a better job of undermining your credibility than you do yourself when you say such things, so perhaps I'll stick to pointing it out if/when you do it in the future.

  55. Amos

    Nov 12, 2013, 18:23 #41679

    It does seem a struggle for you SGRB but aren't you just highlighting selective quotes which prove your bias? Not greatly different from highlighting those statistics that you seem similarly sensitive to. @ jeff wright. The point being that whatever Spurs wage bill was that didn't do better than Wenger. The report carefully considers this aspect of the 'big 6' clubs (including Spurs) and concludes that they did 'better than any rival'. The failures against lesser sides in the domestic cups isn't peculiar only to Arsenal or even Wenger's Arsenal sides (though SGRB might wish to take issue with you again for highlighting a potentially bias confirming statistic). Walsall, Swindon, Wrexham and Luton decorate our pre-Wenger history and all other clubs have similar disappointments. In the big picture it doesn't really tell us much does it.

  56. Finsbury Joe

    Nov 12, 2013, 18:23 #41678

    Can only echo the thoughts of the many on here Arsenal have become a second rate club, with a second rate manager, second rate coaches, second rate medical staff and above all, far too many second rate players. No wonder rivals are desperate for Wenger to stay

  57. jeff wright

    Nov 12, 2013, 18:02 #41677

    Amos, Wenger had a wage bill in near excess of 60m more than spuds last season and just 20m less than United's . He's got the 4th largest one this season, this hardly puts him up for the Best British Business Initiative award by him finishing 4th regularly .That's the least that you would expect from him,given the greater resources at his disposal against that of clubs lower down in the pecking order. Wenger lost the LC final to Brum who were relegated ,last season he lost the semi to Bradford and the FAC tie at home to Blackburn. So how does this make him a shrewd operator regarding using his resources?

  58. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 12, 2013, 17:50 #41676

    "I haven't sought to argue that I'm any more or less biased than anyone else SGRB." If that's the case, then you'll need to stop with prescriptive statements such as "These are the good times, you just don't know it" that give that impression. Or seeking to place yourself above others with comments about "mental fragility" or "I accept it was confused enough to confuse yourself". I'm trying to undermine you due to such statements, Amos - you can call it a 'struggle' if you wish.

  59. Amos

    Nov 12, 2013, 17:47 #41675

    @jeff wright. It's hardly surprising that our performance against the teams that have tended to end above us over the last few seasons isn't as good as theirs against us. That's possibly why they've tended to end the season above us perhaps? Presumably those teams that have ended the season below us presumably have even poorer records against those teams? So aren't you guilty of SGRB's concern about highlighting statistics that are supportive of a bias. One statistic that might perhaps be worth throwing into the consideration is that ManU have won the title having only won one game against the other teams in the top four and losing 3 times so maybe it isn't a telling statistic after all. I do accept though that as yet things stand we haven't beaten any of the teams currently above us in the league which doesn't augur well for our chances of competing for the title.

  60. Amos

    Nov 12, 2013, 17:35 #41674

    I haven't sought to argue that I'm any more or less biased than anyone else SGRB. On the contrary I have accepted that we all have our prejudices. You appear to be struggling with any 'truth' that isn't you own. The Sporting Intelligence report goes much further than you're willing to accept Green Hut and measures performance based on wage spend, the importance of wage spend compared to transfer spend, and hence effectiveness of wage policy, along with spending in relation to squad stability and the importance of that stability over other factors. The conclusion being that Wenger has done better than any of his rivals. Of course, as I've said, the report is not without some ammunition for dissenters to debate the choices made, but the rounded and objective view is clear enough - though bound to be boring if it's not what you want to read.

  61. BADARSE

    Nov 12, 2013, 17:28 #41673

    OK, we had a much more testing run out against Borussia than MU did in their CL game. They had an extra day to recover, and played at home. One of our big guns in the shape of Ozil has underperformed recently. We had a couple of men go down with a bug prior to KO, and perhaps others were affected. We were cautious as we were playing the champions at home, most slate Arsenal for being too gung-ho, now for paying too much respect to a good side. We were beaten by a good goal. That is life gentlemen. We cannot always win, though I know it must frustrate some more than others. So cheer up, another game is coming over the horizon.

  62. jeff wright

    Nov 12, 2013, 17:16 #41672

    Some stats can't be argued over ,such as these ... we have taken just 21 points from a possible 72 against top four opposition between 2009 and Sunday's defeat at United. Last season we only managed 2 points from 18 and have already dropped,despite being 'league leaders' and allegedly in title winning form , 3 to a United side who lost at home to West Brom recently. Then there is the depressing Wenger stats v Jose - with another defeat for our bloke at home already in the League Cup to increase Wenger's woe at the hands of the slippery Porugeezer. Even Amos will struggle to come up with a rational excuse for this dismal showing on Wenger's part. Someone mentioned a lack of ability to motivate players against the top 3 sides by Wenger - even when he has a side in better form than them. Tbh, it's difficult to argue against this because our players, along with a pale jittery Wenger always look like frightened rabbits caught in the headlights of an oncoming articulated lorry when faced with top 3 opponents who are not afraid of them. Are our lads as some claim just fast track bullies or is it down to the preparation that they receive before these big-games. Wenger's pre-match comments don't help things either with him often,as with his ones about our French players possibly suffering after-effects from the France World-Cup play-off next week, offering up excuses for not beating opponents.

  63. Green Hut

    Nov 12, 2013, 17:00 #41671

    Amos- The Sporting Intelligence article isn't about comparing Wenger and his peers performance 'using the resources at their disposal' at all, it's just another points-per-spend piece of the type that Chris has been needlessly boring us with for months. The author admits very early on in his fifth point that he has no idea how much money has been available, and while he states that 'Arsenal insist that they are now ready to combat the ‘big money’ of their main rivals with their own big money. Ivan Gazidis has been saying this with some fervour for some months now', the declared Southampton supporter obviously isn't aware of previous directors such as Edelman and Fiszman over several years giving the manager clear and public offers of substantial financial support quoting actual figures, declarations that Wenger's disciples like to pretend never happened.

  64. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 12, 2013, 16:59 #41670

    I'm not here to provide you with a comprehensive case for a change of manager, Amos. For that I suggest you look back through numerous articles and comments on this website, if you're unfamiliar with that side of the argument. I'm here to point out you're as subjective and biased as the rest of us, as your prescriptive statements suggest you believe you've a handle on the 'truth' of the matter.

  65. BADARSE

    Nov 12, 2013, 16:52 #41669

    1975 plus any others who can recognise and appreciate that circumstance in any match, or given period, can contribute to a different outcome without the structure of the whole match being noticeably altered. A story I heard years ago may illustrate this to some, but others may just get confused by it. A man taking over from his wife who had been called away took his little two years old up to put him in the bath. The phone rang and he shot downstairs. Having answered the phone he noticed the clothes horse had toppled over in the other room. He went in and straightened it, setting the clean but damp clothes back neatly upon it. It suddenly hit him like a train, he'd left his little one upstairs alone in the bath. He rushed up fearing the worst that the mite would be submerged staring up at him with vacant eyes. The toddler was happily playing still. For a split second he went through the worst of feelings and likely recriminations. Afterwards, this kind and loving Dad recognised he was an ace from being branded the most terrible of fathers. Luck, fortune, fate, favoured him and he won. Life, oh and football, can be like that. OK playmates, back to where Arsene Wenger and the team are going wrong.

  66. Amos

    Nov 12, 2013, 16:44 #41668

    On the one hand you're unhappy with posts with statistics that back up a thought or opinion which if not in concert with your own are bound to be 'biased' and on the other are happy with 'thinking' it's time for a change of manager without the need for a 'rounded, objective' case supporting it. The Sporting Intelligence report makes a very rounded and objective case as to how Wenger has met or exceeded reasobale expectations compared to his peers. I await a rounded and objective counter argument.

  67. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 12, 2013, 16:20 #41667

    Of course a case must be made to back up the 'thought', that's a non-point. If you're the type that likes to make prescriptive statements such as "these are the good time - you just don't know it" then I'd say the onus is on you to at least try to provide a rounded, objective picture. Only highlighting stats that support your bias is a cop out.

  68. Amos

    Nov 12, 2013, 16:07 #41666

    I'm not how much bias the most often quoted statistic reveals about anyone but there's no doubt that it is some confirmation bias for some. It doesn't matter greatly whether the proponent of any particular statistic is biased or not, we all have our prejudices. It's probably only our prejudices that make any argument interesting. But any statistic or data used to support an opinion is got to be preferable to unsupported opinion. Dismissing an opinion on the basis that a statistic doesn't tell us enough is a cop out. It's better to attempt to provide what you think the argument is missing. Hence thinking it's time for a change of manager isn't likely to be as persuasive as making the case for change.

  69. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 12, 2013, 15:36 #41665

    Of course the stats themselves are objective, mine is a straightforward point about the highlighting of certain stats revealing the bias of the person doing the highlighting. I'm not sure who believes there are 'simple answers' to ending this trophyless era, but thinking it's time for a change of manager doesn't by definition mean you think that's the whole, or 'simple' answer to the problem.

  70. Bard

    Nov 12, 2013, 14:43 #41664

    There' s a lot of fundamentalist rubbish on todays post. Those who don't believe in the deity aka Wenger are classed as heretics. Wenger is neither saint nor sinner . He's been outstanding but as he hasn't won anything for nearly a decade so obviously questions are going to be asked. Some seasoned Arsenal fans me included don't think he's got it on him any more but I would love him to prove me wrong.

  71. Amos

    Nov 12, 2013, 14:35 #41663

    You can interpret statistics in different ways of course Ron but they're just data. Information that you join up with other data or information to reach a conclusion. It's the interpretation that's subjective. Hence probably the most often quoted statistic, that we haven't won a trophy in 8 years, can be used to argue for the replacement of the manager but others can then provide other information, whether opinion, fact based or not, or other statistics which might challenge that conclusion. The Sporting Intelligence report is a worthy one, that doesn't leave dissenters without any room to move, but should give pause for thought to those determined to believe there're simple answers to the difficulties we've had in winning a meaningful trophy in recent times.

  72. Ron

    Nov 12, 2013, 14:22 #41662

    Amos - The stats are always going to reveal a subjective view arent they really. Ive often said that an argument can be constructed that the last 8/9 years could be considered a greater success for AW than his glory years ie by the fact hes kept the Club top 4 in a period of stadium move transition.The argument would depend upon it bening demonstrated that everything hes done/not done as having been forced upon him by the Clubs money situation and that his room for manoeuvre has been totally constrained by factors he couldnt control.I think we all know that isnt the case though and that all sorts of other variables are involved with regard to footballing matters and decisions that have been his entirely in which case the big debate starts to roll all over. Its endless isnt it. Maybe his memoirs will stun us when theyre penned and we ll all think AW is a genius after all!!

  73. 600NER PETE

    Nov 12, 2013, 14:15 #41661

    It's a bit odd how some of the pro-Wenger contributors on here think that anyone criticising him are somehow betraying Arsenal. I have wanted Wenger to leave for several years and have given up my season ticket because I couldn't put up with the way the club was going and the crazy prices to go with it. But Arsenal are in my blood and I still try and watch every game either in the pub (that shows all their matches) or at homemade on the internet or the telly. Some Arsene supporters seem to think that because we are top of the league that this proves that they were right all along. I argue that I can't forget the last few years so easily. I am pleased we are top of the league but as I said in a previous post, don't think we have been outstanding so far this season(although the points tally has been). I am certainly not getting carried away with the way things are going. This website is surely here to give a platform for opinions by Arsenal fans. Because I want Wenger to go does NOT mean I am now anti-Arsenal. Far from it. I only want the best for my club. I would love to be proved wrong and Wenger to produce a team capable of winning something. I think we still have a long way to go before that happens though.

  74. jeff wright

    Nov 12, 2013, 14:04 #41660

    I agree with you Maguiresbridge some folk do confuse supporting Arsene ( blindly) with that of supporting AFC. My support for our great club's history never wavers .There used to be a football club there once instead of a counting house with counts counting out the money. The master of illusion Arsene continues with the charade of supposedly competing for trophies - you don't win them in November though - if Arsene can't win any - even one set up at home for him to win - then he invents one . You couldn't make it up.

  75. 1975

    Nov 12, 2013, 14:01 #41659

    Well said bad arse in 44525. Games are about episodes and incidents that happen within them. When Utd had their strong period they got something out of it thanks to two good players. When we had our strong period in the second half, we just did not have enough quality up front to get something out of it. That is down to the club and Wenger having failed to land a striker. Had we not wasted time over the summer pursuing Rooney or Suarez and showed more intent with Higuain or maybe some other option, we might be in a different place. That said, we are still top and many would say that we have no right to be there. But we are so Wenger and the team must have been doing a lot that is right. I can only hope that Wenger looks at where we are in the PL and recognises that this is a good position to capitalise on. We could go on to be serious title contenders if we can bring in a top striker as a priority in Jan. Over to you Arsene! Try not to fluff it up!

  76. Amos

    Nov 12, 2013, 13:58 #41658

    The stats used by Sporting Intelligence in the report I linked to above are pretty objective SGRB. Of course if there're stats that make Wenger look a terrible coach others are free to post them though usually the statistic that we haven't won a trophy in 8 years is enough for most. The problem with statistics derived from a more comprehensive analysis is that they're always so bloody inconvenient when you wish to cling to a preferred opinion.

  77. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 12, 2013, 13:47 #41657

    maguiresbrige, think you've hit on the truth of it in post 44532. Further, you can use stats to make Wenger look a great coach, you can use stats to make him look a terrible coach. It's the selection of stats to highlight (especially when repeated again and again) that scratches away the veneer of objectivity that same stat is supposed to give.

  78. Tony Evans

    Nov 12, 2013, 13:33 #41656

    Ron - keep telling it like it is. I'd much rather read an honest match summary by someone who was there as opposed to biased nonsense that does no one any favours. I listened to the match on 5 live and from the commentary what you have said is spot on. Arsenal just do not appear to able to really impose themselves sometimes, especially against Manure and Chelski; which is a great shame because the League does look like it is 'up for grabs', as Brain Moore would have said, and with more belief it could be on for us. As I said before a proper goal poacher in January is a must and as usual I find myself annoyed with Wenger for leaving the squad short in vital areas yet again.

  79. Wenger Out!

    Nov 12, 2013, 13:32 #41655

    Had Martin Atkinson allowed Sunderland and Liverpool the advantage,had Anelka put away those easy chances,had Marseille and Borussia not left their shooting boots at home in the away legs,had Wenger's father not married his mother.....

  80. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 12, 2013, 13:31 #41654

    jeff wright, spot on, there's Arsenal fans or Arsene fans who see tippy tappy passing as playing great football even if it goes nowhere, and wouldn't/don't have a problem with us winning nothing and even losing as long as we have great stats and keep playing this so called great football.

  81. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 12, 2013, 13:10 #41653

    FP Gooner, excellent shout, remember the time when the pattern was a lot different and we had the hex on the likes of the chavs for many years where the chavs in the crowd (and others)could be seen putting their hands over their heads in despair or saying for f***s sake not again as we would score the winner or when the ref blew the whistle for full time, and the realisation set in that they'd been done again and were still a long way behind, oh how times have changed.

  82. stevo433

    Nov 12, 2013, 12:15 #41652

    I knew in August that Ozil was never a Wenger signing, just a very expensive sop to the media and fans by Gazidis and Kroenke. I also knew that Wenger would go out of his way to ruin him like he did with Arshavin for the same reason that he was never his signing. I'm afraid Ozil needed a club as it's a World Cup year and his playing time would have been slin at Madrid. He already looks fed up with Wenger ( aren't we all) and he will be gone to a proper team in a year, probably Chesea .

  83. Ron

    Nov 12, 2013, 12:01 #41651

    Tom - There must have been a few good Summers that i missed (and many others too by the looks of it) then over my years as a fan! I think that your error lies in construing criticism and observations of the Club that dont accord with yours as automatically a destructive force and that any supporter that makes them as being narrow minded and unfair (as your post earlier with your 'simpleton' and 'tiny mind' ref makes clear). Im far and away from being a fountain of knowledge, but if nothing else i try to be realistic and ive noticed too that there seems to be quite a number who visit here who often observe things as i do oddly enough. Ill carry on observing things as i do and following the team as i do too. If thats 'anti Arsenal' as you suggest, so be it. Aim your opposing views at myself or whoever, thats fine by me too. All i suggest is that you do it in a reasonably civil manner instead of being so offensive. It impresses nobody fella. Yours Sincerely - Don

  84. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 12, 2013, 11:39 #41650

    Badarse, the difference is it's Tom's comments that are being correctly pulled apart, whilst he went ad hominem. Do you really wish to be seen to agree that the more critical commentators are 'anti-Arsenal'? As for the USSR comparison, I don't see anyone trying to stop Tom posting at all. Personally I'd like to see him try and put up a well reasoned, coherent response. And yes, fine lines in sport - works both ways e.g. if Newcastle had equalised in final game last season or the goalie hadn't chucked the ball in the net in the final game of the season before.

  85. John Gooner

    Nov 12, 2013, 11:35 #41649

    We won't win anything with Wenger in charge, he builds teams of bottlers. All of the evidence from the last 8 seasons supports what I'm saying, so you cannot deride me for saying it. Even before the last 8 years, does anyone remember us throwing away a massive lead in the 02-03 season? Throwing away 2 goal leads at Bolton and losing to relegation strugglers Leeds? If it wasn't for a masterful display by Henry at home to L'pool following that pathetic capitulation at home to Chelsea in the CL, I daresay we would have bottled the invincible season as well. Wenger is a bottler and his team are bottlers, until we get rid of the man, we will win nothing. Pochettino is starting to look like a good shout. I am not a Wenger hater, he has done great things for the club and English football off the pitch, but as a football coach, he leaves a lot to be desired.

  86. Tom

    Nov 12, 2013, 11:33 #41648

    @Ron, Just because we don't all swallow your let's criticise everything Arsenal if we don't win every week nonsense that your deluded followers on here follow doesn't mean that I'm wrong and the Don Ron is always right. The words I used to describe the anti Arsenal which is what you are if you can criticise the start Arsenal have had are no worse than the rubbish the AKB's have to put up with from some on here or the abuse some of our players have to put up with from the boo boys. Badarse and Westlower and many more I recognise as die hard Gooners who back the Arsenal through thick and thin. You my friend are more of a sunshine goon who's only happy when Arsenal reach this impossible perfectionism you expect.

  87. jeff wright

    Nov 12, 2013, 11:31 #41647

    If Rooney's shot that just failed to find the far corner had gone in it would have been 2-1 to United... and if my Aunt Mary had a pair of balls she would be my uncle..

  88. BADARSE

    Nov 12, 2013, 11:20 #41646

    Thank you for the courtesy and well constructed words SGRB. As I said I shall be a little guarded, but I note the vitriol Tom has attracted. These exchanges are faintly amusing, as a poster being somewhat dismissive, perhaps rude (?), receives a congratulatory pat from another, then the vehemence of the gods is visited upon both parties with the premise, 'Don't be abusive'. I remember an ex military chap having an exchange with another who was supporting some aspects of the USSR many years ago, and this actually came out of his mouth, 'We fought for you to have many things, yes, including freedom of speech so shut up!' In summing up had van Persie's header clipped the bar, and a toecap reached a late Sagna cross the posts would have been very different.

  89. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 12, 2013, 11:03 #41645

    Badarse, certainly I think you remain one of the more respectful and respectable posters, but I do think in the rush to align yourself with posters you see as vaguely pro-Wenger, you sometimes overlook that they're playing the man, not the ball (this is quite apart from the fact that Tom's particular comment above doesn't stand up to even the most cursory analysis). Apart from that, Ron's said it all.

  90. Ron

    Nov 12, 2013, 10:50 #41644

    BADARSE - So, referring to others as 'simpletons' and they being probably of a 'tiny mind' for expressing a view opposite to what a poster thinks is OK then? Just for the record, it doesnt bother me what people say either diresctly or indirectly to me, but ill carry on zapping them anyway. Its rarely very difficult to do. SGRB is dead on though, in that you do frequently align yourself behind some of the least persuasive and insulting posters who venture on here from time to time. Im thinking of your freind 'Jamie' as one eg. He may well be 'Tom' in disguise for all i know,but he s just as ignorant. This is fine of course, but espousing a higher need to be accomodating and respectful to all others as you do, doesnt really sit with those youve chosen to champion with all due respect.

  91. BADARSE

    Nov 12, 2013, 10:32 #41643

    Hi SGRB, well firstly I am fallible, and have a devil inside me struggling to get out, which is not an excuse, just a brief explanation. I recognise the frustrations of trying to combat the interminable enemy. You shoot one down and another pops up. No attitude or approach is ever really neutralised, so we get back into the ring and start slugging again. I didn't think either post I commented on were vicious or particularly nasty, and would not have identified with them had they been so. Constantly I read hyper criticisms, written in strong and strident terms, followed by the common, 'I agree with all you say' responses. I just accept as I think the parties are in accord, and though I don't share their views, they in effect are not talking to me. Sorry if you think I am being inconsistent, I try not to be. It is born from a love of my club, and reading someone attacking it, not criticising some aspects as you might. There is a fine line between the two. Much of the criticism is couched in homophobic terms, it can be sexist, even racist, and downright insulting. These posts can offend my sensibilities, but I metaphorically speaking, wipe my mouth and walk away. In person every nuance would be challenged. I hope the respect you have for me remains untarnished after this explanation, as does mine for you. I still hold you as the example to follow. Thank you for the observation, I shall be more guarded.

  92. Born Gooner

    Nov 12, 2013, 10:25 #41642

    Possession stats mean nothing - remember when Chelsea came to the Emirates a few years ago and we had somethng like 70% possession? There were three goals in that game and Chelsea got 100% of them.

  93. jeff wright

    Nov 12, 2013, 10:15 #41641

    Tom seems to believe that comparing us with spuds a Europa Cup side who can't score goals in the Prem despite passing the ball about endlessly - and the hapless 'ammers who have Fat Sam managing them proves that Wenger is doing a great job. Tom then cites our possession stats against United,a match in which we looked alarmingly like the spuds a team that he Tom uses in comparison to big Wenger's tactics up . Kosse summed up the possession malarkey against United when he admitted that 'they let us have the ball in the second half'. Of course they did,because they knew we wouldnt do anything with it! How many saves did the United GK have to make ? United scored one goal we scored none,and that's all that counts in the end,you get no points for just tediously passing the ball about . Also it may have escaped Tom's myopic Wenger like tunnel-vision but there are other teams who also play attacking style football in the league - and all of our games are not fun-filled goal-fests. It's fairly obvious in fact that minus Walcott's pace that we are a bit pedantic and predictable. Yawn.

  94. Ron

    Nov 12, 2013, 9:58 #41640

    Tom - I reckon its your abilty to delude yourself that stands out proudly. The number of passes that went to Utd players would be a better stat to focus on. Your perspective is shaped by SKY clearly and i very much doubt that you saw that tepid excuse for a performance on Sunday. Had you have done so you wouldnt be so insulting. The end result was a 1-0 loss despite your pointless pass stats which have a bacdrop of Arsenal barely venturing into the Utd half for the entire 1st half and barely rasing their game in the 2nd. While your busy swallowing your SKY stats, bear in mind that they dont record stats for 'fear factor'. Had you have seen the game, even a rude and odious little boy like you might have seen fear oozing out of that Arsenal team from every pore. As for you BADARSE, underpinning such nonentity posts like TOMs in the brusque and disrespectful manner it was delivered suggests that your letting your guard drop a bit fella. As for your reply to me earlier ie 'ill leave you to sort out the personnel' , if i was being paid 7-5 Mill pa to do it, id maybe try to make a fist of it, but as it is, it isnt my job so ill leave it to those who should, to employ a man that can if you dont mind. Im pretty darned sure that Wenger s no longer that man and have been for 3-4 years. Sunday did nothing else but reinforce my view he s shot as a coach.

  95. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 12, 2013, 9:40 #41639

    Badarse, how do you reconcile your wish for everyone on here to be generally more polite and respectful with your support for the comments of Tom above, or JJB under the M Bazell article, to give two examples?

  96. CanadaGooner

    Nov 12, 2013, 9:40 #41638

    @ FP Gooner - you mentioned a 'myopic' manager, but you seem to have forgotten to mention our 'hyper-myopic' fans (those who are so short-sighted, they cant see that Arsenal could have achieved so much more between 2003 - 2008). Those 5 years could have been so much more for our club as far as Champions League, Premiership & FA Cup tally goes. But we are so full of praise for what Wenger acheived, that we carry on making excuses for 8 years of winning nothing. Where I slightly disagree with you though, is in calling Sunday's OT match 'the first serious test' I dont think so. Our serious tests this season will come against Southampton, Cardiff, West Brom (we already drew one)and teams like that, who will take points off our challengers. If we can carry on beating (not drawing) those teams, we will win the premiership. What disappoints me every time I speak to some Gunners (and with some comments on this site) is that we dont seem to place Wenger's achievements in any context whatsoever: yes, credit to Wenger for an unbeaten run and for winning some trophies; but we could have, and should have been looking for so much more, after going an entire season unbeaten, should we then follow that with 1 FA Cup and 8 years of NOTHING?! If we dont win anything at the end of this season, Wnger MUST leave; and anyone who doesnt see it that way need a brain transplant.

  97. FPGooner

    Nov 12, 2013, 9:00 #41637

    In the first serious examination of any title pretensions we may harbour, we lost. For the last few years, whenever we have faced Manure or Chelsea, we have choked. There is a pattern forming of us losing to quality opposition. As someone else pointed out, we are flat-track bullies. The Wenger apologists and sycophants will reel out any number of excuses; 'yes, very glad to be out of the League cup to concentrate on the PL', 'Yes, you will lose the odd game here and there', 'all the stats and betting indicate we are bang on cue to be champions' etc. It is amazing how at the start of every season for the best part of 10 years, I have heard fellow gooners bursting with enthusiasm at the players we are going to sign, only to be disappointed. Then comes the pontification at what an improved team we are going to be having sold off a major star (Henry, Vieira, Fabregas etc). Then comes the hope for the new season and how this season is going to be different. Get a grip on reality. We have largely played relegation fodder so far and when we do meet quality teams, we usually lose. For once, in a post-match interview, I want Wenger to say we played sh*** or our tactics was formulated by a team of highly-trained chimps or 'I realise picking Bendtner was as popular as having a rattlesnake in a lucky dip'. But no, we always get excuses or blaming something or someone else, whether it is a bug, the referee, global warming, continental drift etc. While other teams are boasting about their strike partnerships, Suarez & Sturridge, Rooney & Van Persie, Aguerro & Negredo etc, we have the over-rated Giroud (I personally like Giroud, 10 out of 10 for effort, but as good as the other six I just mentioned?), Bendtner and Sanogo. We are being hampered by a myopic manager, long past his shelf life, who is unable to purchase adequately, formulate tactics effectively or motivate his players.

  98. Bard

    Nov 12, 2013, 8:49 #41636

    Tom: there's very few anti Wenger posts after the Manure game. Not all criticism is anti Wenger. The delusion is believing that Wenger had or has a master plan for games like Sunday. That his transfer policy is anything but a shambles and bringing on Bendtner is not a masterstroke but a raising of the white flag.

  99. northbank123

    Nov 12, 2013, 8:22 #41635

    Why don't we play two holding midfielders against a side whose midfielders don't even press high up the pitch because they rely on Rooney chasing round like a blue-arsed fly to close deep-lying midfielders and defenders down? Great idea Arsene, at least Giroud won't have anybody within 30m of him to get in his way too. Massive parallels with our win over Spurs this season. They were there for the taking and we absolutely bottled it by adopting such a negative set-up that we never troubled de Gea. Played for a 0-0 and didn't respond even though that went tits up within half an hour.

  100. BADARSE

    Nov 12, 2013, 7:59 #41634

    @Tom, In a rush today but have to make one quick post. Have never connected with you directly, but would like to say this one thing.if I met you I would immediately buy you a drink, and would insist it was in a big cup, Gooner!

  101. Tom

    Nov 12, 2013, 7:42 #41633

    @Steve. United's tactics are a bit different when they play Arsenal to all the other teams ie Stoke and West Brom. Against Arsenal they just play 10 defenders, anybody can do that against the best teams. Arsenal had 10 shots 2 on target, United's had 5 shots 2 on target. Arsenal had 60% possession to United's 40% and completed 568 passes to United's 298. You anti Arsenal, Wenger out boys are so delusional, and your tiny minds are so controlled by what the media tells you it's laughable. Talk Sport tells the nominal Arsenal fans that all is not well at Arsenal and the simpletons swallow it whole.

  102. Westlower

    Nov 12, 2013, 7:32 #41632

    Finsbury Joe, Bendtner, Park & Soldado, peas in a pod. Astonishingly one of them cost £26,000,000, go figure! Our new stadium keeps us insulated from the cold North winds that blow from the Lane. Look after yourself and wear more thermals.

  103. Steve

    Nov 12, 2013, 7:21 #41631

    @Tom who created nothing at OT and played with fear while both West Brom and Stoke went there and scored 2 goals.United were there for the taking and we bottled it again up there.When Gooners start comparing us with the Spuds you know how low are expectations have fallen

  104. LJB

    Nov 12, 2013, 1:11 #41630

    Ozil looks overpriced .Those Southampton players are better.Isn't it hilarious that there is a manager who has been in the PL less than a year and yet appears to be tactically superior to OGL,has his team playing brilliant attacking football and develops young talent to a much higher level than the rest of the PL.All the things that supposedly only Wenger can do on a budget.Prediction:southampton will crush our lily livered lot AND will finish in the top 4.They are the new Dortmund,the real deal.

  105. Finsbury Joe

    Nov 12, 2013, 0:46 #41629

    N4 like wenger needs an excuse not to buy, don't forget Park is still there

  106. N4

    Nov 12, 2013, 0:22 #41628

    Why are we giving more games to useless Bendtner the Gnabry?!!! I could understand that we a striker but who will sell good striker in January 2014?!!! Sure will be another excuse for Arsene not to buy ;)!!!

  107. Tom

    Nov 12, 2013, 0:11 #41627

    Who will finish higher West Ham or Tottenham discuss? Who will score the most goals Tottenham or Sunderland discuss? Which set of fans will lynch their manager first wham or spuds? Who's two points clear at the top and playing the best football by a country mile.?

  108. DW Thomas

    Nov 11, 2013, 23:42 #41626

    Ramsey was poor. Ozil was poor. No pressing till 2nd half. Zonal marking doesn't work. Bendtner as a sub reminds us all of how bad the summer was, lets admit it. Jack brought urgency to the game as did Gnabry. Yet again we lose to a team we could beat and who is not all that great anymore. Vermaelen played well. Can't blame him for the goal. He has heart at least. Arteta feels like,the new Denilson at times very rarely going forward. And if Van Persie is an Arsenal man, I am Superman. What a joke that comment was. We need a top quality striker who can put fear into defenders. Someone like Ibrahimovich I think. Again, its hard not to see another season on the horizon where we don't fall flat. Why oh why can't the men in charge learn?

  109. Finsbury Joe

    Nov 11, 2013, 23:29 #41625

    Is Ozil the new Gervinho? Discuss

  110. Finsbury Joe

    Nov 11, 2013, 21:28 #41624

    The editor is right, think that is French for Groundhog Day. Wenger was yet again shown for his tactical lacking up against a big team. He did not get his players up for it, to be honest the first half was an embarrassment and the second not much better. Utd now will always have the measure of Wenger, even if my Gran was managing them. Good call selling Van Persie to them Wenger, but then again, they were the highest bidder, Arsenal only go one way there. Anyone else feel the cold wins of November? Again...

  111. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 11, 2013, 21:15 #41623

    Not quite on the topic of the game itself yesterday but just as important was the poppy's on the shirts, and the shirts of all the other teams over the weekend. All to be respected of course and indeed are but i couldn't help noticing the design on our shirts were that little bit more classy with possibly being stitched instead of a transfer or ironed,especially the stitched writing under the badge which other teams hadn't. I'm sure they'll be auctioned off now for a good cause. Well done Arsenal.

  112. Jon H

    Nov 11, 2013, 20:24 #41622

    It seems a bit premature to be ditching zonal marking following the concession of one goal from a set piece particularly as it has served the team well so far this season. It looked to me as if Gibbs had switched off and should have been more alert on the post. Also if you man mark and your opponent makes the right run and gets in the air ahead of the defender the result will still be the same as we saw yesterday.

  113. Ron

    Nov 11, 2013, 19:53 #41621

    Westie - Thank you. I am saying that. Call it what you will scared of us etc etc etc (though i don't accept that for one millisecond). Moyes used what hes got. 8 outfield scufflers plus a decent keeper and Rooney and RVP. He stifled, he scuffled, he scratched, he fouled, his big player got a goal in a defensive performance designed to achieve one end - the win and in the end he got 3 points. Arsenal have no big game players, no scufflers, few dogged warriors, buy hey ho we like to 'play football'. Sorry but it no longer washes with me and hasn't for some years and idea that Arsenal play exhilarating football is a complete myth anyway.

  114. Declan Burke

    Nov 11, 2013, 18:57 #41620

    'Smithy' is spot on about an Ian Wright type required to feed off Giroud, and turn great possession into shots on target. Overall I am still very optimistic, and firmly believe we will make a serious title tilt.

  115. Westlower

    Nov 11, 2013, 18:44 #41619

    Ron, You could equally turn your argument on it's head that Man U were scared of AFC turning up when they dare not lose. It's easier to set your stall out to stop a team than be creative. Man U are devoid of a creative midfield player - take their strikers away and they're a mid table side. They preferred to play a centre half in midfield as another stopper. It's hard to play against a team that parks the bus especially the home side. Given the way the game was set up whoever scored first was going to have a massive advantage. We maybe could have snatched a late goal when United's discipline started to waver. Another six inches (said the actress to the bishop) and Bendtner may have turned himself into a hero from Sagna's cross.

  116. CanadaGooner

    Nov 11, 2013, 18:43 #41618

    @ maguiresbridge; indeed. I would have loved to see Alan Shearer's face after the Chelsea and man city results. he's such an idiot! cant see past Chelsea or man city winning it? I would be very surprised if either man utd or arsenal doesn't win it. our tv pundits in the uk are so stupid but it should come as a surprise (afterall they're ex-footballers! ha ha -- being on telly doesn't suddenly make them intelligent; grey hair or no grey hair)

  117. Vince

    Nov 11, 2013, 18:02 #41617

    Only a few have picked up on the fact that Ozil was poor? I just hope he's not another Arshavin. He seems so lethargic and applies no effort. He seems weak and just constantly gives the ball away carelessly too. I'm waiting for him to get the ball and make something happen? Beat a man, instead of always playing the simple ball. Wenger needed a striker, he bought another replica player. I would play JACK ahead of him. At least he tries!

  118. BADARSE

    Nov 11, 2013, 17:47 #41616

    Ron, sounds about right. I'll leave you to sort out the personnel buddy.

  119. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 11, 2013, 17:45 #41615

    Canada, good point, we let them off the hook yesterday we had the chance to heap more pressure on them and Moyes but we couldn't take it. A result for us would have been a kick on the arse for them and Moyes, now it will have the opposite effect their tales will be up and their confidence back with still the edge over us, and as far as they're concerned with some writing them off they are right back in the mix.

  120. Ron

    Nov 11, 2013, 17:41 #41614

    BADARSE - With all due respect matey, the old ' wont play football' whinge is typical Wenger speeak thats held Arsenal back for 8 years. Its a teams job to win. Theyre not uder a duty to play Arsenal at a game they 'like'. A coach does what the other team DOESNT like. Thats his job. Arsenal werent there to play football either. They were dismal rubbish for 96 mins and looked like a lowly Prem League team. We need men (not boys) bringing in who want to win, arent scared of big matches and who relish big stadia. Most of all we need a Coach whos hungry and wants to work with such men and insist on them doing a job of work. Arsenal have neither facet.

  121. Ron

    Nov 11, 2013, 17:25 #41613

    Westie - Hi mate. Can agree with a lot of that and think Walcott could have had something up there yesterday. Your right United were Moyesesque. Very much so. However, why shd teams give Arsenal an open game? Its up to a Coach to create a sqaud that serves to handle all types of football and change an approach in mid game via substitutions and tactical changes where neceassary. AW hasnt ever been able to do it. Its no good saying such a player needs a 'certain type' of game. At 42 Mill grand, a top coach tells a player how to play and said player does it or gets his arse hauled off. An idiot cd see that we needed a player to take defenders on yesterday to drive through them. JW needed bringing on sooner in place of that perenniel big game 'hide merchant' Cazorla and Ramsey or Ozil shd have been told to get up there and make some foil runs at least in or about their pen box and to get in and partner Giroud where possible. The performance lacked guts from Wenger. He was once again scared of taking his team there and Utd knew it. They scored and then gave us the ball knowing we wdt do much. Good tactics. Ugly yes, but they got the points and being 8 points down on us, it was points they needed, not an enetertainment fest.

  122. BADARSE

    Nov 11, 2013, 17:09 #41612

    A good post again westlower. Yes young Gnabry has a likely bright future ahead of him, and playing at OT will be very useful experience. We will always suffer without pacey wide men; full backs can only augment a team capable of utilising this play, so we await the speed merchants currently side lined. Rosicky has been reborn this season and was missed more than BFG, and perhaps could have prised them open, but they were not on the pitch to play football, that was clear. I cannot see them staging a remarkable surge up the table. They are quite a reasonable side in this years league, no more, and their limitations will inhibit them retaining the title. Different tack, but I took in the Tottenham Europa game the other evening and was astonished at their paucity of class. It seems that we are really in with a shout this term. That claim seems a little odd considering I am posting off the back of a defeat by a main rival, but the season for me is clarifying.

  123. Westlower

    Nov 11, 2013, 16:47 #41611

    Gooner Pete, In any given season you'll only ever see about 3 or 4 sparkling performances. The rest is made up of percentage football. Yesterday was a non football match, Man U were set up to kill the game in classic Moyes fashion. It was like watching Everton with two class strikers. GG would have been proud. When was the last time Man U played without wingers? Sadly not many teams will engage us in an open game. Ozil needs a fast game with pacey forwards to display his skills. Ronaldo was the beneficiary at RM. Ozil is not a sideways & backwards type of player. Ian Wright or Henry would have relished playing with him. Due to circumstance we went to OT without any pace in the side at all, save for the full backs. It was dismal to watch, Man U couldn't believe their luck! Hurry back Rosicky, TW, Ox & Pod. The bright spot for me was the brief showing of quality from Gnabry.

  124. Bard

    Nov 11, 2013, 16:00 #41610

    Part of the reason for some of the insipid displays" yesterday included is that we' playing the same players because despite the denials on this site the squad is too thin. They're knackered and some need a rest to freshen up. I know it's going over old ground but I've said on here the transfer window was a colossal **** up, salvaged only by the last minute signing of Ozil. We paid the price yesterday. I hope we don't against Southampton otherwise it could signal the all too familiar slide.

  125. 600NER PETE

    Nov 11, 2013, 15:44 #41609

    Although we have taken plenty of points this seasonI don't think we have played particularly well in any of the matches apart from perhaps the first half against Napoli. However, we have in each match had players with enough quality to at some stage make a chance or two and take the points. Yesterday we had very little quality moments despite playing against a fairly ordinary UTD team. I thought UTD were, at best average, but unfortunately we once again were second best against them. Disappointing, as it spoilt a good week for us. A win for us put UTD out of the running and leaves a message of intent to other teams. We just didn' t turn up though. Better than 8-2 I suppose!!

  126. NIgel

    Nov 11, 2013, 15:32 #41608

    Tom O'B -What are you on about? A quote from Lee Dixon: "It was not up to me to deal with set-pieces but the responsibility of the growbags, as I call them. We had two or three of the best attackers of the ball in Steve Bould, Martin Keown and Tony Adams and we would always use zonal marking at corners."

  127. Ron

    Nov 11, 2013, 15:20 #41607

    Gare K - Have to agree about the RVP songs! We ve got great support without sinking to that level in my view. Its a shame, seeing as he was so well liked when at Arsenal. Makes us seem as low life inclined as many of the spuds fans have always been.

  128. Ron

    Nov 11, 2013, 15:09 #41606

    redshirtswhitesleeves - 'inbuilt inferiority complex'. Absolutely matey! It was there well before the 8-2 as well.

  129. Rob

    Nov 11, 2013, 15:09 #41605

    Anyone else getting worried by ozil loss of form in the thee big games we played he put the cross in for the goal against dortmund and that's it we needed more from him yesterday I understand people say he is being marked out of games but great players on how to get around this..

  130. jeff wright

    Nov 11, 2013, 14:54 #41604

    Louis perhaps you should try staying drunk ... that way you can avoid hang-overs...

  131. Gare K

    Nov 11, 2013, 14:52 #41603

    Not a great performance from us to be honest. But then Man Utd weren’t that great either. I have been of the opinion since 2009 when Tevez and more importantly Ronaldo left that this is not a great Man Utd side and it’s a shame that we haven’t taken advantage. Defensively we were ok but missed Mertesacker who I have always favoured and up front, toothless. The joke at OT was that Ozil was in Phil Jones’ pocket (another one that has slipped away from our recruitment net in recent years). In truth Ozil’s form has declined in recent weeks but I hope he gets it back soon. It was the usual for us at OT; pass, pass, pass but going nowhere; no shots on target when we usually have one, Rooney playing a blinder as he usually does against us and RVP now our perennial scourge. Btw, to the Gooners who sang that vile song about RVP; his goal and subsequent celebration, you got your comeuppance. But I’m no RVP lover either. Having said that, yet again the Man Utd were a disgrace with their usual vile songs about Wenger. I’ve read the section about Wenger in Fergie’s book and surprisingly he’s very complimentary towards Wenger. About time those a**holes at OT learned about respect. Seeing as some fans like to use all manner of stats to defend Wenger and this current team, consider this; in 2013 we have lost away in the league to Chelsea, Man Utd, Tottenham and Man City at home. Meanwhile, Southampton & West Brom who have spent far less than us have avoided defeat at Man Utd this season. The league is clearly open and it’s important that we bounce back immediately against Southampton and that history does not repeat itself when we lost a big game at OT which was immediately followed with a home game against Southampton. That was October 2004 and we all know what happened there. Up The Arsenal!

  132. Redshirtswhitesleeves

    Nov 11, 2013, 14:39 #41602

    Despite the good recent run of form and generally promising start to the season I can't help but feel that we have an inbuilt inferiority complex when it comes to playing the cheating mancs and chelski, born out of our managers own mental weaknesses and blind spots. Whether this will ever change whilst Wenger remains at the helm I very much doubt. The hope is that after having our bellies tickled by those vile mancs yet again that we are able to get over it and rebound with a win in our next game. The worry is that as we've seen far too many times before it could be a springboard for the latest collapse. Very obvious to everyone that we are in awful need of a quality backup/alternative to the excellent and improving Giroud who works his socks off in the proper Arsenal manner. Over to you Monsieur Wenger...

  133. Luis Anaconda - i drink

    Nov 11, 2013, 14:35 #41601

    we lost didnt we? i was drinking since friday night. i think it is utter retards who blame bendtner. After all, he scored good goals against top oposition three years ago. i used to drink then as well but i dont like to talk about it

  134. BADARSE

    Nov 11, 2013, 14:18 #41600

    Pete thanks for a cupful of sanity. As I said earlier there is no way to defend headers like that apart from stopping the header in the first place.

  135. Paul

    Nov 11, 2013, 14:17 #41599

    Why do fans say we only lost 1-0 was that a bad result?Yes it was.This is a United side who conceded 2 at home to WBA and Stoke.We didnt look like ever scoring.The first half performance was pathetic with both Ozil and Cazorla missing in action.Ozil needs a kick up the arse his form is not good enough.As others have said the madcap Wenger gamble to go into the season with Billy Bender has failed completly.Now Giroud has another two big world cup play-offs to play.The word is burn out.Remember Utd were not a good team last year and won the league in a canter.

  136. Pete

    Nov 11, 2013, 14:11 #41598

    That was the FIRST goal we have conceded this season from a set piece (excepting penalties). True, WBA scored a couple after corners had been initially cleared - and we have looked very vulnerable from our OWN corners - but that is a different problem. To be frank, I feel we have been far more secure from corners this season than for many a moon. Also, yesterday's goal was a real fluke. That was about the only place vP could have put it to score from that angle/range - and it came off his shoulder! Mertesacker may or may not have prevented the goal - but less of the knee-jerk please!

  137. BADARSE

    Nov 11, 2013, 14:07 #41597

    jeff wright, thanks. By the way Kermit is amongst my favourite actors and he wouldn't have wanted to be associated with any humans.

  138. jeff wright

    Nov 11, 2013, 14:00 #41596

    Badarse.. croak ... ok then... hey it could be worse they might be called toads !

  139. BADARSE

    Nov 11, 2013, 13:56 #41595

    I can remember Scholes punching a ball into the net to claim a hat trick in an England victory at Wembley. The then England manager, one Kevin Keegan declared publicly on camera that he didn't care how the goals were scored. No public outcry! Oh and jeff wright, try to drop the use of 'Frogs' please buddy.

  140. CanadaGooner

    Nov 11, 2013, 13:43 #41594

    @ Ron: Can Arsenal win the premiership this season? YES; will they? NO. Spot on sir! But there's an 'if': we will win the premiership this season if Wenger accepts that Bendtner is a lost cause and go out there in January and buy a goal scorer (and that's NOT Benzema - yes, he speaks french, but NO, he doesnt score enough goals! he's another Giroud).

  141. CanadaGooner

    Nov 11, 2013, 13:25 #41593

    all good Jeff.

  142. jeff wright

    Nov 11, 2013, 13:17 #41592

    Calm down Canadian I was only jesting about the French cheating . Well sort of... Regarding the motivation of our French players I was alluding to comments by our great leader that I heard from him on the car radio this morning - with him sounding like the grim-reaper - while droning on in his own inimitable fashion about the possible dire consequences of our French lads having to play for France . I agree about Young's diving - but it has been universally condemned in England ,even by United supporters who of course normally will resort to supporting anything that allows them to win.

  143. Ron

    Nov 11, 2013, 13:17 #41591

    I went on Sunday , not really expecting us to reverse 7 years of OT surrender routines, but expecting something better. The score was better, but due to Man U not being very good themselves these days. The inevitable RVP goal game on cue and we wondered when Rooneys mandatory score would follow. It didnt largely due to Utd being content to just line up 2 banks of 4 and allow us the ball. Fergie must have had a word with Moyes!Credit due they defended well, but in truth they hadn't much to defend against. Giroud was so alone its a wonder he never sent out an S.O.S. He was so lethargic too. In the 1st half in partic the midfield s passing was so poor, it was unreal. Ozil especially and Ramsey were AWOL. The rest were just rank bad poor. Gibbs had a decent game and so did Koschielny. 6 from 10 for both of them. They did pick it up a bit at 1-0 but not to any great extent. The 2nd half seen us with lots of possession due to Man U allowing us all of the ball as opposed to some of the ball in the 1st half. Every attack went via Gibbs and Sagna and nothing came to fruition. The final pass or required cross was just too poor. Each attack was so, so predictable. Nothing on the bench to change things so the subs made bnil difference. My view was that there were 2 teams who took to that pitch who would have taken 0-0 had it have been the outcome. Man Utd v a far better outfit than Arsenal were for the taking. Arsenal looked like a team who didn't have one iota of belief that they could win there. Man U looked like a team who knew it.We were powder puff, quite clueless and lethargic (they simply weren't up for it). It was a token performance by a team who maybe thought that showing some ambition would result in another thrashing. Wilshere recognised the need for some energy injection and tried to give it. He looked lost in a sea of tedium and mediocrity.The result will be interpreted as not the end of the world and it isn't. Football isn't that important, but to be truthful that performance showed to me that nothing much has changed there. The same soft underbelly and proclivity for a 'bottle job' is all there, still glinting and they were happy to show it yesterday. As an ad for the so called top echelons of english football the game was awful. Slow, technique was barely in existence and was a passionless, somewhat tepid affair and at least showed that that PL title is up for grabs as its being contested by a bunch of poor to average teams. Can Arsenal win the title after that? Yes, they can, as they wont go and visit their nemesis every week at Utd.The other teams aren't pulling up any trees either as results shown. Will they win it? No. Not a cats chance in hell chance playing like that. All in all, it was a most flat, joyless uninspiring day. Our away support was great (as ever) though. We kept at it despite the poor show but Arsenal are a million miles from being a top side.

  144. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 11, 2013, 13:13 #41590

    Correct Kev hopes were high, they were very high a very disappointing defeat so much more was expected, especially with this great run we're on and after all the hullabaloo surrounding the Dortmund game our tails were up and i don't think there were many fans (myself included)who didn't think we could or would go there and win or at least come away with something, and with others dropping points the chance was there to extend our lead and make a statement, but i suppose we should have known better, gone was the fluent passing, we couldn't even manage tippy tappy very well, how many times did we give the ball away with passes straight to the opposition? is that what happens when we play better teams? Yes if ever there was an advert needed for getting rid of zonal marking it was there for all to see yesterday with RVP's goal and it had to be him i'm sure it was no coincidence he found himself in that position knowing what to expect or not, how a player can expect to out jump another who's coming running in unchallenged from seven or eight yards from a standing jump is beyond most of us i'm sure, apart from some who supposedly know better. The sight of the carthorse coming on on 77min said it all, is there really really no better alternative at our club worth trying? even for the short term could they really be any worse or make less of an impact? Very disappointing result when much more was expected not just the team but individuals also, but all's not lost after this test, they'll have the chance to make up for it in the next three or four matches and i'm sure they will. As a man yoo supporter said to me last night you may be top of the league but your still not top dogs, but some fans knew and know that already.

  145. Dartford gooner

    Nov 11, 2013, 13:04 #41589

    Can someone tell me how many goals has zonal scored this season? What is the point having 5 players marking no-one. The two boys in the middle are both good players but together it just don't work against top teams. Ozil and Cazorla were both poor and need a rest. If it means giving a couple of kids a game so be it, some of the boys are near burn out. If and when we get everybody fit we should be ok but another 6 foot plus c h and another striker are a must no matter what it costs. Why a club of our size cannot produce a top striker for nearly 20 years must be of great concern and does not say much for our academy. Keep the faith

  146. CanadaGooner

    Nov 11, 2013, 12:55 #41588

    @ Jeff Wright: I loath the french as much as most of us brits do, but for goodness sake, let's drop the snctimonous crap! Seeing the likes of Ashley Young dive incessantly, while we turn our noses up at foreign players as divers is something that really riles me. And as for the last world cup qualifying match in which Henry was supposed to have cheated: why do we have referees in matches again? or do we expect Henry to deny the ball crossed the line? If that goal was scored in similar fashion by Gerrard or Rooney, we'll find some excuses to claim it was perfectly ok. Arsenal have failed to motivate our players enough to win any trophy in 8 years; so, what on earth are you talking about man?! world cup, pundit job etc.; seriously!!!

  147. Bard

    Nov 11, 2013, 12:54 #41587

    Its an interesting dilemma we face. It's obvious we need a couple players and with the League up for grabs ( United were average) the Jan window becomes crucial. Will he or won't he? Over to Westlower for the odds of Wenger buying a couple of big names. On past experience I would suggest its like a million to one. It would be shame as we're nearly there.

  148. Johnny

    Nov 11, 2013, 12:52 #41586

    That's the first time United have played with that intensity all season and they only managed it for the first 15 minutes. No way will they keep it up and I can see them dropping far more points than us. United will lose a lot to the smaller clubs where their anti football doesn't have the same affect.

  149. Matthew Bazell

    Nov 11, 2013, 12:26 #41585

    Jeff Wright, that's the big question, I agree. But going by the evidence so far this season, I think that unless Chelsea find their form then we have to be strong favourites. So far City have lost 4 games in the first 11. I don't recall a team in recent memory winning the title from that position.

  150. jeff wright

    Nov 11, 2013, 12:19 #41584

    You could be right Matthew,however your argument relies on the other top clubs continuing to drop points against the lower sides - we failed to take advantage of this anyway yesterday and that could be the case again in the future. Sides like Southampton are capable of causing us problems like West Brom and Villa did - we are not going to win every game against these sort of sides. Chelsea,United and City could hit a consistent run - in my view it's unlikely that all 3 of them will not do so . I will stick with my view that we need to beat these sides to have a chance of winning the league - or anything else come to that - against another 4th place is our trophy at the end of season. Wenger needs to buy players in January we will win nothing with this current squad . Wenger will be hoping the Frogs beat Portugal with no World Cup to help motivate our French players - and with his own French TV football commentary job being made redundant . Let's hope the Frogs don't have to resort to cheating again to make the finals!

  151. 71guns

    Nov 11, 2013, 12:05 #41583

    Disappointing yes, but I felt more of an embarassed disappointed (like losing to the spuds) than anything else. I'm not suggesting for a second I believe the tables have turned, our early success (if being top is a success)is still in its infancy and Utd are still champions so is a 1-0 away defeat so bad? The annoyance is that we should be winning this game, we are a better side and we once again let ourselves down. The possesion certainly 2nd half is what you would expect but there was no cutting edge (that both West Brom, Southampton and Stoke all had at Old Trafford). I would even go as far as to say Man U have turned into a bit of a bogey team - much the same as the spuds consistantly lose 4th spot in the last week of the season to us we need to stop over thinking this game and whats gone before. Utd were up for it but as Mr Whitcher says without RVP and Rooney they are even more ordinary than last year... We'll chalk it off to 'one of those days', I'm sure if there was anyone one else in the box a few minutes from the end we would be chewing over an acceptable point earned but while Wenger continues to give Bendtner the last 10 mins there was never any danger of that.

  152. Tom O'B

    Nov 11, 2013, 12:02 #41582

    What I really REALLY don't get is this 'Zonal Marking' lark. AND one would think we would have some idea about Van Persie at corners... Anyway, being of the old school, did Bouldy/Tone/Dixon/Winterburn/Keown EVER do zonal marking?? Even in a park game I would - as a centre half - always insist on man marking at corners. Ie, back in the day you'd want an Adams or Bould up against the likes of Duncan Ferguson and no play chance of who might just be in your zone. Also, by going zonal you also play into the hands of the opposition. Finally, just what does Stevie Stevie Bould do on a daily basis??

  153. Matthew Bazell

    Nov 11, 2013, 11:59 #41581

    As someone who has been critical in the last couple of years, this bad result changes nothing for me. I can still see us winning the league in a similar manner to how United did last year. Chelsea don't look a threat. City are a joke. Liverpool will drop too many points. United don't have enough wins in them. I cans see us winning enough games against the weaker teams to gain enough points.

  154. Westlower

    Nov 11, 2013, 11:06 #41580

    Predicitions to end of 2013: Southampton (D); Cardiff (W); Hull (W); Everton (W); Man C (L); Chelsea (D); West Ham (W); Newcastle (D). Puts us on 40 points going into 2014. Very winnable fixtures until late March. Must avoid FA Cup replays & Europa Cup like the plague.

  155. jeff wright

    Nov 11, 2013, 11:03 #41579

    United,City,Chelsea. That was 18 points to play for before yesterday's defeat at Old Trafford. These games between last season's top 4 sides could be pivotal in deciding who finishes where in this term's title - and top 4 battle. So considering that we only managed to win 5 points from those games last season yesterday's result was not a good omen regarding us doing better this time around. Chelsea have also already turned us over at home in the League Cup - and Wenger's still to win a game against Mourinho . Actually we are not doing any better points wise this season than we did in the last one . Perhaps the early fixtures have been kinder to us - albeit we messed up at home in our first game to struggling Villa. Wenger's already wheeling out the excuses gloomy way of his, a bug in the camp yesterday was one,although only Mertesacker would have started the game out of the two players who had it,and if we can't manage without losing losing him then we really are in trouble if he gets a long-term injury .Also the forthcoming French International game is being being portrayed as a possible cause of disaster with players returning tired ,injured or jaded if the result goes pear-shaped for the Frogs. The sight of Bendy being sent on to try and rescue us a point was pitiable - and really shows just how poor Wenger's summer signing dealings were . Another worry is that Real Madrid's claims that Ozil goes AWOL against the big-clubs looks to have some substance to it. He was poor yesterday compared with Rooney and also never showed up against Chelsea in that home defeat recently. Flamini,is he really making that much difference? Alright he kicks a few players and gets booked in every game , but the points tally so far in the league says that we are doing no better than last season . We didn't appear to miss Flim Flam against Liverpool or Dortmund away either.

  156. UTU

    Nov 11, 2013, 10:52 #41578

    We had ago kept coming forward if we had another top striker we would got a draw. Sagna put in 3 great crosses in the last 10 minutes and Giroud can't do all his own. You know The Arsenal were in trouble when Bentdner came on. Wenger needs to bring a quality striker in January. RVP came back to haunt us that's why the Mancs paid £ 25 Million for a 29 nine year old. The Arsenal should have never sold him to them. On a positive note we didn't give up but this defeat highlights a lack of depth in the current squad. We are still Top of the league !

  157. unchives

    Nov 11, 2013, 10:39 #41577

    Unfortunately this game was incredibly important, as a win would in my opinion, have finished off Man Utd for this season and they new it. Again we fail at Old Trafford. All the other results went our way. A draw would have been perfectly acceptable, but we could not even manage that. I think this result will cost us more than we think.

  158. John Gooner

    Nov 11, 2013, 10:39 #41576

    If we want to make that step up to the next level, we need a world class striker, much though I love Giroud for his effort. This result has told us nothing, it has only confirmed once again our need to buy a top striker in January. Regardless of his undoubted ability, Ozil needs to step his effort and passion up big time. The last 3 games have been the biggest of his Arsenal career, but he doesn't seem to have adjusted his game accordingly, he's playing like it's a pre-season friendly. On the evidence of the last few games, Rosicky should be starting the next game with Ozil on the bench to give him a bit of a kick up the backside. I don't want to see anymore token effort defending from a guy who cost nearly triple any other player in our history, it's not good enough.

  159. James

    Nov 11, 2013, 10:25 #41575

    It was fitting that the game took place the day after the Lord Mayor's show.After all the hype that we heard before the game that we wouldnt be afraid of Utd and we would take the game to them.That lasted a whole 30 secs.It was the type of performance we have come to expect over the last 5 years at OT.The fans were up for it but once again the players werent.With the other results going our way over the weekend you would have thought we would have taken some risks and given it a go.Rooney for all he has won at Utd was up for the game more than any of our players.The whole of our midfield was dire.Arteta and Flamini didnt work Cazorla did his usual disappearing act when it comes to big games,Ramsey was lost and anyone who has any rockets left over from Bonfire night please stick it up Ozils arse.He may be a £42m player but he has to justify it.His form over the last 5 games has been crap.And then we come to Bendtner.When you need a goal against the Champions at OT the last person you bring on is the Danish lump.You can bet Moyes was secretly smiling when he came on.What United have is a team of winners which we dont have.And a 5pt gap with 27 games to go is nothing.We desperately need a striker in jan and the bench yesterday looked very weak

  160. Gunner SA

    Nov 11, 2013, 10:25 #41574

    It was the 2008/9 season where Man U gleaned 5 points from 18 against Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal and still won the title, Kev. Trouble is I can't remember a season where Arsenal has lost to Man U but still won the league. Can you?

  161. Tony Evans

    Nov 11, 2013, 10:22 #41573

    I think the season now hinges on what Wenger does in the January transfer window. He simply has to buy a top goal poacher that can win you games like yesterday, where chances are at a premium. Another commanding centre-half would not go amiss either, but it is a forward that is such a priority. Do I trust Wenger to really go for broke? In short no.

  162. Johhny Lynch

    Nov 11, 2013, 9:59 #41572

    Continue with the blinkers on Wenger if you must .. but for Bendtner to have been the only striking option on the bench yesterday was a ****ing disgrace .. not because of his Interview with the Danish Press where he continued to slag off our club . But because he's ****.

  163. John Abrehart

    Nov 11, 2013, 9:55 #41571

    That little itch behind my ear turned out to be a reliable indicator again, this was the one game in the 'super 3' where we would slip up. You could tell how fired up Utd were as soon as the game started. It seems that any pretender to what they perceive to be 'their title' gives them added intensity, such as Man City in recent years. I agree with the earlier comment that their mid-week game was nowhere near as difficult as ours and the extra days rest of course and Moyes knows how to do niggley. There are also excuses for the flu and the fact that Ramsey, Ozil, Cazorla and Giroud put in their least convincing performances of the season but this game showed up the paucity of our squad. We are a full back, centre half and a £50k striker short. We were not that far off and had not Sagna dallied and given away the corner that they scored from, a 0-0 would have been a fair result. I look forward to Walcott and Podolski returning and hopefully no injuries in the International break and we can really push hard in our traditionally weak Christmas period. Come on you reds!

  164. fozzy's mate

    Nov 11, 2013, 8:49 #41570

    Disapointing but you're always going to lose the odd game. We all know our weakness is the lack of a tip top striker and any real back up to Giroud. In recent years and yesterday manures intensity at OT has done for us which OGL acknowledged post match. The most important thing is to do the polar opposite of what we have done after big game defeats in recent years and forget it and come again with our own intense display against a Southampton side after the break. We do need to get Walcott back as Ozil is often looking for him charging up past him. It will take ozil some time to be fully effective in England. Compare his sterile display yesterday to the all action display of Rooney or RVP.but all in all more reasons to be optimistic than in recent years and let's hope the injured players bolster us after the international break.

  165. CanadaGooner

    Nov 11, 2013, 8:48 #41569

    Most would say 1 - 0 sounds like an improvement from 8 - 2, but the reality is that 3 points were at stake. That said, if we carry on beating the Hulls, Crystal Palaces, Fulhams of the league, we should be just fine; as those clubs will take the occasional points of our main rivals (casing point, this weekend's results). It is however a little disappointing that Wenger couldnt out-wit Moyes, who really isnt Fergie is he? What is more disappointing is the fact that Man Utd have now been allowed to ride the wave of their chaotic start to the season, and will now begin mounting a robust defence of their title; when a few weeks back, they were staring embarrassment in the face, and should have lost at home against Stoke, which would have left Moyes' future in question. But now, with their usual result against Arsenal at home, we all know you cant rule Man Utd out going forward. We'll have to wait and see how we perform in our next match

  166. Gaz

    Nov 11, 2013, 8:41 #41568

    One other thing. Say what we want about Rooney but he carried them through that game. His performance rubbed off on all those around him and we had nobody who could match him. Imagine him up front instead of Giroud yesterday...

  167. Westlower

    Nov 11, 2013, 8:34 #41567

    Latest betting to win PL: Man City 11/4; AFC & Chelsea 7/2; Man U 5/1; Liverpool 7/1; Spurs 33/1. Match betting to finish highest in PL, AFC 4/7 v Man U 5/4. Since the PL was formed no team lower than 5th position after 11 games has won the PL, Man City are in 8th. Hope springs eternal!

  168. Mike

    Nov 11, 2013, 8:32 #41566

    Its a long time since I heard Man Utd fans get behind their team like they did on Sunday - Agree with the fact that you cant play Arteta and Flamini together, but this might have been as a result of Rosicky falling ill. BFG big loss to the team - still of the two games this week, Dortmund was the more important. Were are still at the top and have some change as well - hopefully Padolski and Walcott are back to fitness after the break which will force Bendtner off the bench

  169. second best

    Nov 11, 2013, 8:27 #41565

    man utd didnt set out to be great. they set out to win at all costs; to win ugly and teams that can win ugly when required win the EPL. if you soft and tippy tappy you will NEVER EVER win the epl

  170. Benny2

    Nov 11, 2013, 8:10 #41564

    Give it a rest yeah.

  171. 1975

    Nov 11, 2013, 8:00 #41563

    Like westlower say....2 wins and one defeat. Not a bad return from the toughest run of games this season. Infuriating as he can be at times, the absence of Theo means we have no pace to stretch teams. No ox and the problem is doubled. Gnabry still a work in progress. Utd did show intensity. That is something we will need to do consistently. And a couple of purchases in January.

  172. Gaz

    Nov 11, 2013, 7:51 #41562

    Yeah I realise we're still top, yeah I realise if we'd been offered two wins out of three we'd have jumped at it, and yeah I also realise those around us lost or drew so no real damage was done. Just can't help thinking though that we missed a great chance to deal Utd a knock-out blow whilst putting down a real marker in the process. Quite frankly we were awful going forward with not one attacking player playing to anything like his potential. Usually one of them will perform but on this occasion none did. And then we compounded it all by bringing on the pointless bendtner. What a complete and utter waste of space he is. Offers absolutely nothing and quite frankly he should never play for us again. What made his inclusion worse was that he came on before Gnabry who actually looked rather good and finally offered-alongside Wilshere-some impetus going forward. Wenger has had a great start to the season-giving even me hope he might be changing for the good-but in jan he simply has to buy another top striker. As for Vermalen I thought he played well and certainly I can't fault him for this defeat especially when those in front of him were so poor. Also a lot of credit to Sagna who despite my own critisisms put in two of the best crosses I've seen this year. The fact not one of our forward players got near them says a lot more about them... Ozil? Obviously he's going to need far more time to aclimatise but that doesn't mean I dont think his recent performances have been terribly poor. Anyway one of the real positives from this season is how we've come back from any set-back. Well this was a set-back so I'm hoping for a positve performance versus an in-form Southampton after another (boring) international break. Oh, one last thing. Those Utd fans are a classy bunch aren't they? You'd have thought on Remembrance Sunday they'd have resisted in singing abusive songs about Arsene but oh no....

  173. Westlower

    Nov 11, 2013, 7:23 #41561

    Typical post Euro game. All teams playing midweek turned in a flat performance. Man U being the only winners and Chelsea rescued by the ref. Man U played with 4 CB's + 9 behind the ball so it was never going to be an open game. Most of us would have settled for 2 wins and one defeat from the past week. THe next crunch set of fixtures is Everton Home(Sun 4.0), Napoli Away (Wed 7.45) & Man C Away (Sat 12.45). Sky belatedly moved the Everton game from Saturday to Sunday. Still doing their bit to help their favourite team from Manchester get back in the hunt. Should we win 2 of those games it'll be a pivotal week.

  174. Roy

    Nov 11, 2013, 7:04 #41560

    This was always going to be a big ask after an energy sapping week and Manure not daring to lose. We had a far tougher game than them in the week, and they also had an extra recovery day.Then came the news about BFG followed by a bug in the camp. But we could still have had a result if anyone had got on the end of those inviting crosses from Sagna, and therein lies the rub. As immense as Giroud has been, you know the Dutch skunk or Shrek would have smashed at least one of those in. It's very difficult to criticise Giroud after the shifts he's put in so far this season, but that turned out to be the difference yesterday and it was only magnified when Bendtner came on. That said, there's not that many forwards I'd swap Giroud for right now because he's definitely playing for the shirt, but he will suffer burn out if we don't get someone to share the load. Defeat, yes, but as you say Kev, not terminal. It's how we react that matters. Here's hoping all the players come back in one piece. Especially Olivier.

  175. Where's Wally is a Gooner

    Nov 11, 2013, 6:36 #41559

    Arteta and Flamini playing together does not work It didn't at West Brom and it didn't here. It is far too cautious and static. When Jack and Gnabry came on we really opened them up but it was too late. Our success so far has been due to a fluid, dynamic midfield. Let's hope Wengers tendency to pick a side on hierarchy and not form doesn't begin to hamper us.

  176. Ali

    Nov 11, 2013, 6:35 #41558

    Wenger shouldn't let this defeat affect the team mentality but it will. The game against Southampton is a very difficult one because they are doing very well and have a strong defense. I wouldn't be surprised if we dropped a couple of points there.

  177. Bard

    Nov 11, 2013, 6:32 #41557

    Not a great game decided by the kind of attacking quality we dont have. We looked a bit lightweight in my view and as you say we will struggle when the games are tight. Gibbs is a concern for me. He flatters to decieve. He looks good on the ball but doesnt produce enough going froward when you compare him with Sagna. All in all not a disaster but Southampton will be another tough must win game.

  178. smithy

    Nov 11, 2013, 6:27 #41556

    No need to panic- it was the last game in a difficult run of games.With many of the others losing the damage was lessened.It does though illustrate the need for a striker, we currently have a Alan Smith type and require an explosive 'get behind the last man' Ian wright type as plan B.