It began as The Inter-Cities Fairs Cup

European memories and reflections



It began as The Inter-Cities Fairs Cup


Way back in the murky past, before Arsène Wenger came to stay, and stay, and stay, European football competitions began. Europe had to stop going to war with each other first, which they did, though some of those earlier games may have suggested that the conflicts were just transferred to the football pitch. In the mid-fifties it was decided that a cup for champions should be inaugurated, so the European Cup began its life.

The idea of European competition was a noble intention, but Real Madrid had other ideas, and constantly destroyed the opposition, winning the trophy year after year. So no competition, within a competition! As the team of Di Stefano and Puskas insisted on keeping the ball, and winning the competition, a second one was needed. So the bizarre Inter-Cities Fairs Cup was all but hijacked, revamped and offered as a secondary, and soon to be, prestigious alternative. Initially it had been an odd competition, whereby only cities that had held a trades fair in Europe were invited. Not a club but a city! This crazy situation continued for a handful of years but slowly evolved into the European Fairs' Cup. Arsenal had won this in 1970, by which time it had become a top European Trophy to win.

Around the same time, another cup competition was under way, and what a mouthful! The European Cup Winners' Cup, started. Imagine boasting, 'We are the cup winners of the Cup Winners' Cup, oh and in doing so, the ragged rascal ran...' So by the mid-sixties three competitions existed. The status quo of the day determined that the European (Champions) Cup was king. Though the Cup Winners' Cup was established as second in the pecking order, it was a false assessment, being somewhat inferior to what came to be known as the UEFA Cup, by the start of the 70s.

This was because of the following quirk. The entry to the ECWC was only gained by winning a domestic cup, every country's challenge cup; therefore you qualified by being a winner, just as you did with the European Cup qualification, as it was now commonly referred to. All fine and dandy, and of a superior order, compared to the blossoming UEFA Cup, because you could qualify for that with a high league position, which seemed a little perverse even to ardent supporters. The crux was that the UEFA Cup allowed two, or three, and in later years four clubs from powerful footballing nations to enter. The ECWC had just one, so knock out Juventus and Italy's influence ended; in the UEFA Cup, if you beat Inter, Torino could be lining up against you in the next round.

The early 70s heralded a fairly stable period, though evolution was happening, even though it may not have been obvious to the watchful eye. Drawn rounds decided by the toss of a coin, and then, as much to combat defensive play as to reach a decision, the 'away goals' rule was introduced. Even so, we had a pacific and peaceful period, though in 1970 I remember going through a form of mental torture between losing the first leg of the Final to Anderlecht, in Brussels, and the second at Highbury. Today with instant information, websites and twenty-four hour rolling news channels, it may seem inconceivable, but we, as fans, were really much like mushrooms in those days, 'kept in the dark with manure heaped on top of us'.

Today's complaining fans have no idea how far we as supporters have come to gain a status. We had gone into the competition with that away goal rule in place, played the first leg, consistently outplayed for the entire game, yet obtaining a life-line in the last minute, when 'Big Ray' got that vital away goal. A few days after, a snippet in the 'rags' announced that the away rule might not operate in the Final. What! How outrageous was that? There we were, clinging to the belief that we only (only?) had to win 2-0 to lift the cup, and yet here were the grey men, deciding to work against us, with seriously muddled thinking. Not much has changed there then. After a couple of days of uncertainty, that idea was revoked. Phew!

For around twenty years the three competitions continued with only slight developments and alterations, but already signs were there that the ECWC was struggling. In the wake of European politics, and freedom of movement and labour, football suddenly zoomed forward, powered by money. We in England formed a Premier League, draped it in filthy lucre, and began thumbing our noses at tradition. All too quickly the European competitions changed. The changes were not driven by natural improvements, but were openly powered by money. The ugliness of capitalism was about to get uglier.

The European Cup was too fragile for the marketing desires of satellite television. It couldn't consider promoting a competition which might lose a big team quickly, by knock-out methods, so it changed the rules. In fact, the goalposts were moved so often now in world football that they might as well have been on casters. All tournaments and competitions employed some basic ground rules, 1) get as many entrants to the 'Finals' as possible, and 2) keep them there as long as possible.

The European Cup died, or one should say it metamorphosed into the Champion's League. With the new foundling a group stage was set up, ensuring more games to be played. This wasn't enough, so the net was widened and runners-up were allowed in, then third and fourth placed teams. Champions' League? That description was a misnomer, but it meant more money. The rules were changing, and too fast for most to keep up with. The ECWC, unable to sustain itself against the financial might of the Champions' League, buckled and expired. Though, I'm glad to say, not before Arsenal had added its scalp to our honours belt, on a magical night in Copenhagen in '94.

Now the way was clear for the third competition to become the only alternative to the mega rich Champions' League. It too, calling itself The Europa League, adopted a peculiar group system, but Thursday night and Sunday afternoon programmes choked the life out of clubs participating. A sense of separation from the main body is perhaps a bit harsh as a description, but it must certainly have seemed a little like that to clubs who have been involved in this inferior competition. Thankfully, we at the Grove have never trodden that weed-covered path.

We did gain entry once, in 2000, when another peculiar rule allowed us as eliminated Champions' League participants, to sidle in through the back door, reaching the final, before losing the cup on penalties. You couldn't make it up, could you? However, money is the lifeblood, and also the nail in the coffin of virtually all ventures in a cash-driven society. Football, despite wails from purists, traditionalists and those just plain resistant to change, will never be excluded from the financial merry-go-round. This I feel is as good as it gets. It has shown that even the Europa League cannot compete on an even platform with the resources of the Champions' League. It's a big dog little dog situation, and if you are one of only two dogs, why would you strive to be the little dog?

So, here we are with two competitions. One we sacrifice principles, perhaps honour, and certainly truth to qualify for, and the other we shun as if a pariah, that only less fortunate neighbours can aspire to. What has gone wrong? Well, in a globalised world, money talks; just ask Neil Diamond. The difference now is, to coin an analogy, it screams, and it isn't melodic. We fans at the Arsenal are constantly at loggerheads over policy. I hear the charges laid at the door of owner, board, manager, and staff. Those charges are strong and abusive. Liars, cheats, con men, rip-off merchants, exploiters. Actually they perhaps are all those things and, possibly, none of them. Money now rules the game in a way never before witnessed. The money comes from sponsors who are trying to sell their wares. They want mass exposure and satellite TV offers that, but terrestrial TV pays too, and all the spin-offs add their two penn'orth.

The biggest and most powerful often swallows up the minor parties. VHS and Betamax went head to head once; now one survives. It is a natural order - Darwinism! Why should football competitions be any different? As a legacy it is diabolical, and Arsenal Football Club experiences the dilemma as no other club does. We all suffer the fall-out as Arsenal fans, and it is ongoing. What I mean is this. The big-spending money clubs, Manchester United, Manchester City and Chelsea, have established a foothold as Champions' League entrants. They qualify year after year, and nothing looks like changing that any time soon. So a final berth is gleaming on the horizon. You claim that by finishing fourth. That is now our rainbow's end, to find our own pot of gold.

As a successful club, both playing-wise, and as an organisation, we find ourselves victims of the very success that we have created for ourselves. We are constantly good enough to keep ahead of the tide, though in recent years we have got our trouser legs wet. We finish in the coveted Champions' League qualification positions and attract vitriol from our own fans for doing so. It is a far more complex problem than these words suggest, but that is where the smoke comes from that obstructs our view. We are caught in a loop. Be better than the rest, finish fourth, get the bag of gold, have an unsuccessful run in the Champions' League, as we are up against the powerhouses of European football, start again the next season, repeat ad infinitum.

Groundhog Day is mentioned often, and is a picturesque but valid description of our plight, and make no mistake, it is a plight, but only because of personal expectations. If you complain of finishing fourth, it's only because you believe we should be able to improve enough to finish third, second or first, by spending more money. Or utilising our resources more efficiently, with the same, or different entities at the helm of the good ship Arsenal. Possibly. Like much in life, it is a gamble. All the time the European gravy train is chuffing along we endeavour to be aboard; that much seemingly, is vital.

I am at liberty to say I despise the Champions' League, but should I feel hatred for an inanimate object? I am not that crazy. It is just a singular example of the grubbiness of today's world, and the values and gods we instruct our children to worship at the feet of. The great deities Sky, sponsors, advertisers, consumers, are all intricately linked; try to take one down, you take on them all. In fact we are 'them', all of us. We crave a newer car, a bigger house, decking, we even want that holiday of a lifetime, annually! Still, I see it as an integral manifestation of the pure greed, and corruption, of my team, and top-flight football, so I would damn it if I could.

Yet with all that said - the huffing and the puffing - we could be on the cusp of a new direction at Arsenal, which we would all welcome with open arms, forgetting our woes and screaming our salutations to the heavens. Trepidation has dictated in the past few years; perhaps that is about to change for the better. Perhaps. All I do know is that my memory tricks me on occasions. I drift away and become that young, long-haired man once more. Boarding the Dan Air flight from Luton to Brussels. Returning in the early hours, keeping my peace, and steeling myself for what was to come. Inevitable misery, or triumphant jubilation? Still licking my open wounds, from the two previous years’ defeats at Wembley. Then going nervously to Highbury to see my team win! To see my hero McLintock, dear, dear, Frank, lift the trophy. Arsenal, proud winners of The European Fairs Cup!


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117
comments

  1. BADARSE

    Nov 20, 2013, 21:27 #42035

    jjetplane a great story of you and your brother. I can imagine the shrine, ha ha. You know that day when Freddie and Ray scored those goals I knew I'd just seen the two best goals in tandem ever scored in a Final, any final! Each was worthy of winning a cup. Yes you are wise to put the Robert book to one side buddy, ha ha. Incidentally I loved Freddie too. He was one of our best ever, but I went to see him turn out for WHU and he was clueless. He had lost that half yard of pace, but I could see that his brain had slowed down too. He received the ball out wide and was lost. No pace to pick it up and go at the full back, unable to carry it inside and go up a gear. Though he was on the other side it hurt me just watching. Reminded me that we are all getting older as each minute passes.

  2. jjetplane

    Nov 20, 2013, 20:32 #42033

    Badarse Got that book somewhere so thanks for the heads-up as I will now just let it gather dust! Unlike Tony Adams-Shakespeare who is probably more culturally French than Mr P! My fave Arsenal book has got to be The End which has to be the greatest archive on a football terrace ever. Must fetch it out for a good old glance. Aah Freddie - got my mad Arsenal loving brother over from yankee land for his first game in aeons. It was da Chavs in Cardiff and when 'cause you got red hair' stuck that one away not forgetting Romford getting us underway - well he came over all cockney again! Mad times! You should see his Arsenal shrine in New Jersey ......

  3. BADARSE

    Nov 20, 2013, 17:29 #42028

    Ron and jj, leaving aside the comical duck-waddle run, which was a wonderful description, when Robert ran he seemed to skim over the pitch an inch or two above the surface. A true great, A £60 million plus player in his heyday at today's prices,(I discount the Bale fee, it's not based in logic).

  4. Ron

    Nov 20, 2013, 16:40 #42027

    JJ - Ha He did run funny didnt he. Ran like a duck on speed! His body used to sway from side to side at the same time and the poor old defenders never knew which way he was going to turn or which way he'd pass the ball.BADARSE - Ive not seen that book matey, but being as cool as he was, he didnt need grey matter did he! His football brain was second to none. Bergy had great vision but Bob P was just as cute. PS. JJ Freddie - top man! Wenger will go down as the Coach of a great team. Ive always felt that those players like BP, DB, TH and FL managed that team. So many of those 49 games were won on an ad lib basis, as great players can effect of course. AW didnt manage them. He just told them to do what they needed to do. Credit to AW for doing it, which is a form of management i suppose.

  5. BADARSE

    Nov 20, 2013, 13:19 #42024

    Can I stand alongside you two jjetplane and Ron, regarding Robert Pires? I am a sucker for skilful players and he was in the top ten of all-time at AFC in terms of artistry. A number of great players at AFC rivalled his ability, few were as productive as Bobby P. I bought his biographical book a few years ago, 'Footballeur', and was disappointed to find him not too bright. C'est la vie!

  6. jjetplane

    Nov 20, 2013, 13:11 #42022

    Ron Bobby P was the link that made that team and when it came to walking a ball into the net, there was no better man. He was also a great wind-up merchant who like Freddie, bled for the team. He had a funny running style and it is those odd traits that make up the genius. Incredible guy!

  7. BADARSE

    Nov 20, 2013, 8:00 #42009

    Any 'England' fans out there still looking forward to Brazil?

  8. BADARSE

    Nov 19, 2013, 20:58 #42007

    24601 here westlower. Well if you think so, I do too. Will wait and see what happens in a few weeks.

  9. Ron

    Nov 19, 2013, 20:23 #42006

    jj - Ive been shouted down by more gooners for my view that Bobby P was the key to that team of 2001 - 2004. The man was a genius, a winger, a striker and a midfielder all in one cool, stylish package and if not for him having to alter his style after that geordie bastard did him it beggars belief what he could have done. It was him (for me) that made that team what it was.

  10. jjetplane

    Nov 19, 2013, 18:53 #42005

    billthered thanks for the evidence Twas not a dream and my there were a lot of Brummies there! As I was in said schoolboys I had dear Jim in my vision and hence the indelible stamp in my brain Yes - we did see him fall into the net and enter that most amazing bloke - Mr Wilson. Badarse hear what you are saying and it seems all the great moments in football often feature mud which brings me to Pires up at Villa in the mud reaching that moment very few players get to. Pure f...... genius. He was invincible all on his own til the geordies kicked him practically out of the game. The mud links everything. '3 and in' all over again.

  11. Westlower

    Nov 19, 2013, 18:46 #42004

    24601, AFC have got to do whatever it takes to get Marc Reus from Borussia Dortmund. This guy scores for fun and would be a perfect foil for Giroud. With Walcott and Reus either side of Giroud plus Ozil & JW supplying the ammo we would win the PL in a canter!

  12. billthered

    Nov 19, 2013, 17:55 #42003

    RadfordKennedy the game you mentioned, I was in attendance taking my place in the North Bank not in my usual place as Birmingham fans were in there in their thousands.Back to the game though we were one up with about five minutes remaining when Brum got a corner and a fellow called Geoff Vowden headed it goalwards and mighty Jim fumbled it into the net with a sort of juggling act and fell to the ground,it was I think the last time we saw big Jim as Bob Wilson played in the replay a one nil reverse to the Brummies.

  13. BADARSE

    Nov 19, 2013, 16:28 #42002

    jjetplane, it is so difficult to make comparisons sometimes, but if you are off the mark between the case of '91 and the Invincibles it is a whisker of difference. We had one hell of a side then and feared no one. How would we have compared had we achieved the unbeaten sequence in two seasons. Of course it wouldn't have mattered, just think of the mileage we would have got from that one!

  14. jeff wright

    Nov 19, 2013, 15:38 #42001

    Signing a top striker in January will not be easy for Wenger to do. For starters rival clubs will be reluctant to sell to us as in the Suarez saga . Telling someone with an ego like Suarez that you don't think that he's worth 50m will not help to entice them either. The Ozil signing may or may not have been a statement of intent - personally I think it was another late panic buy forced on to Stan by circumstances. In fact it looks like Stan paid too much for Ozil. Ramsey has been the saving grace for Wenger so far this season,not Ozil . So this £42m spent on the German international play-boy will have hardly convinced Arsene that his reluctance on spending big bucks on marquee signings has been proven to be wrong . With Ozil not having had the sort of impact in the games against Chelsea and United that was expected of him by many.

  15. Ron

    Nov 19, 2013, 15:27 #42000

    They cd do worse than just go and get Defoe. OK hes a spud and it wdt be easy, but look at it. He needs games and goals and a chance to get to Brazil. He d get all 3 with us. AND He shoots! MG Arsenal wont be buying top notch forward quality in January. Be a loan job or some 'gamble' of AW s that he ll try. He bank on Walcott staying fit. Bad move as hes never managed it in 7 years has he.

  16. jjetplane

    Nov 19, 2013, 14:59 #41999

    Hibeegunner - used to live in Eddy in the 80s for a bit and all my mates were Hib fans and still one of my best pals is leith born and bred and still going much to his confusion. If you are old enough, you might remember the Hoochie Coochie where i even DJ'd on a couple of nervous nights. Back to the center forwards and though I have seen a few from Joe Baker onwards, will always remember 90/91 and watching Palace get dismatled from the NB. Most interest ing figure on the pitch was one Ian Wright (who signed later that year to us). He was so up for it and at 4-0 down his head was always up and causing problems. Other great memory of that campaign was seeing Grovesy tear Coventry apart. Of course Ander's hatrick that day and the 'perfect storm' he mounted at OT will live forever. Still go with that narrative that for sheer everthing that side was every bit as good as the 'invincibles'. Boy - Did get wrecked that night..... Best front man though has to go to Radford and then Tony Adams for that goal he got against Everton .... Bigger than Soprano.

  17. BADARSE

    Nov 19, 2013, 13:14 #41996

    maguiresbridge that isn't such a bad approach under these circumstances. It will be interminably difficult to nail a really good prospect in the January window. Considering a club want to move someone on, what would his status be? Let's just be prepared for nothing and be pleasantly surprised if someone happens along. I think/hope then that the summer will be different.

  18. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 19, 2013, 11:46 #41995

    BADARSE, yes a proper signing in the class of Ozil would give us all another lift in the same way it did and it would be another signal of intent. Even though the rumors have started i wouldn't/won't be holding my breath as i suspect we'll be running with what we have and the best we can hope for if anybody is another cheapie on a nice contract.

  19. BADARSE

    Nov 19, 2013, 8:15 #41993

    Good morning DR. westlower. Your news is something which gives a lift, though injury return dates make me sceptical. We shall see. The bigger picture at least means they are both close with Theo in the vanguard. They should be very hungry for the ball. That never hurts. Olivier will be the main benefactor of course, but a little width on the pitch should really help our game. Incidentally, I think Jean Valjean was the most iconic and best hero ever. Er, who does he play for?

  20. Westlower

    Nov 19, 2013, 7:14 #41992

    Good news in today's papers with Theo back at the weekend and Podolski close to a return. It'll certainly give Giroud some much needed assistance up front.

  21. Brian Dawes

    Nov 18, 2013, 23:57 #41990

    The Fairs Cup away leg was my first European away game and as I recall very few travelled due to only having about a weeks notice of who we'd play in the final. And those that did go were split up all over the ground. Bertie Mee came out to talk to those fans who had travelled and to thank us for coming. My recollection is that post match we were somewhat negative but by the time we'd reached home we were sure we could do it in the away leg.

  22. BADARSE

    Nov 18, 2013, 23:32 #41989

    Good evening maguiresbridge. Well firstly we certainly have had some astounding centre forwards from 1960 onwards, it was actually westlower's post that listed the players. He omitted Stapleton and MacDonald too. Prior to that era we had Ted Drake. Kevin Campbell, Andy Cole, and Nicolas Anelka were some others in more recent times. Thing is Giroud's name stands with those I've mentioned, and remember we only had one or two at any one time. Bendtner has been a finger in the dyke job so far, that may be rectifies in a few weeks. Let's hope so chum, it would be the best signal to come out of the Grove.

  23. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 18, 2013, 22:11 #41988

    As much as i'm enjoying being regaled with numerous tales and stories of bygone days i'm glad we haven't got completely away from reality thanks to Ron's post 44852,where he said we've had some astonishing strikers over his time (and indeed ours)and to see us having to make do now, pitiful indeed.

  24. BADARSE

    Nov 18, 2013, 21:42 #41987

    I have had some Les Mis songs sung to me by different people on different occasions, but have never had a Gooner sing one to me via a post of The Online Gooner, not much gets weirder than that. Thank you pal your posting voice has a beautiful timbre. I have seen the show 4 times and am always trying to find an opportunity to see it again. Have watched it on celluloid a few times and though acting like a grumpy old man went reluctantly to see the Hugh Jackman version and was so pleasantly surprised. The revolution was a beau geste of the highest order. To the barricades Gooners, and that means you too billthered and radfordkennedy! Never had the shirt connection R/K, but know what you mean, when I have time to dwell and a player is mentioned or I think of one I see them in a certain action, always the same. Ironically I see dear Bob Wilson always diving at the feet of Mullery that May night in '71. If my view counts for anything buddy, look no further, there never was and never will be again a keeper as brave as Willow. He is unchallenged!

  25. Radfordkennedy

    Nov 18, 2013, 20:47 #41986

    I don't know if anyone else has these mental images in their heads,but with me I always think of certain players when either I see an old shirt or someone mentions one,for instance the old yellow shirt from the 70/71 season the one without the blue collar and trim on the arm worn in the final,i always picture snouty taking the worst penalty you ever saw against the world number one GK,the home shirt of the same time well that's Charlie,in later years that away shirt that looked like a tractor had knocked over a pot of blue paint and driven over a yellow shirt I always think of Tony Adams with a bandage round his head,....incidently on the subject of GK,s was there anyone braver than Willow has any other keeper rushed out head first at the feet of an attacker.....jjetplane,westlower and the usual suspects fellas what the hell did fingers do,i keep reading he fell in the net v brum in the cup,but I cant find reference to it anywhere and as previously stated I first attended a game in 68'and don't remember this...was he holding the ball when he fell in the net?

  26. Ron

    Nov 18, 2013, 19:55 #41985

    billthered - The fans were together as you say then matey. Used to congregate didnt we, same places, same spots on terracing. So many good lads who i never even knew their names to this day, but still used to chat too and hug and roar with (and have the odd ruck with other fans alongside i have to admit to my) shame) on any given match day when self protection was needed. Never worried at all about going to Arsenal on my own if a mate wasnt going. Never alone once there on my beloved NB. The dawning of tv football has splintered the fans and the money has changed the game and left us with the modern sterile stadia and different fan persona. The camaraderie is never coming back and neither are those nights like the one in that photograph. It was still a sport then in the main. Now its like everything else, pure business.

  27. billthered

    Nov 18, 2013, 19:30 #41984

    That final brings back so many happy memories to me.I was on the pitch at the final whistle (no hi viz jacketed stewards to stop you then)and cuddled Bob Wilson could'nt quite get to Frank but I am in pictures as a little fifteen year old looking up at our skipper with the trophy in his hand.Then one year later I was on another pitch in north London when we took over N17 and all the surrounding area's.We seemed to stick together a lot more in those days.And never slagged our own players off.Oh for a return to those shilling to get in days.

  28. Westlower

    Nov 18, 2013, 18:42 #41983

    RON, I remember Bally making his home debut for us against Everton, the game ended 1-1 and his old team mates really roughed him up. The Everton team of 69/70 were easily the best team seen at Highbury that season. Only beat us 1-0 but it was obvious they were going to be champions that season. They only lost 5 of their 42 games, which was good going at that time, Spurs 'great' team if 60/61 lost 7 league games. There remains only one team who lost 0 in a league season. Name escapes me right now but I'm sure it'll come back?

  29. BADARSE

    Nov 18, 2013, 17:48 #41982

    Hibeegunner, I remember the flirtation with the purple strip, colour was not the problem, the missing white sleeves was. Ron Everton were a good footballing side, but imploded very quickly. Odd.

  30. Westlower

    Nov 18, 2013, 17:45 #41981

    Badarse; It is time for us all to decide who we are......the colour of the world is changing day by day: RED, the blood of angry men. BLACK, the dark of ages past. RED, the world about to dawn. BLACK, the night that ends at last. RED, I feel my soul on fire. BLACK, My world if she's not there. RED, the colour of desire, BLACK, The colour of despair. Seen Les Mis a few times!

  31. Ron

    Nov 18, 2013, 17:21 #41979

    BADARSE - Despite my biases re our Club, im a football fan first of all, well, i try to be. With that hat on, i can say that the Everton team of 1970 vintage was the best footballing side ive seen in English football. Harvey Ball Kendall. Royle West Wilson Labone Morrisey etc etc . That team went down the tubes quicker than ours of 1971 did. It was staggering. Newton went there and was part of the teams demise. Ball joined us of course. I recall that tanking we gave them and to be honest we tanked Everton ever since havent we! We ve scored more goals v them than any other Club.

  32. BADARSE

    Nov 18, 2013, 17:09 #41978

    Ron amongst others you just mentioned the Forest midfielder Henry Newton. He remains an example of deja vu for me. Let me paint the picture for you. Saturday October the 3rd Forest came to Highbury, and I stood in the North Bank as we destroyed them, Newton and all, 4-0. He was transferred to Everton and his debut game was against us. So on the 17th of October, two weeks later I stood on the North Bank as we destroyed them, Newton and all, 4-0. Deja vu, in a big way. After that game as I left the stadium I turned to my pal at the time, an older chap, and said prophetically, 'You have just seen the reigning Champions being beaten by the Champions elect. Incidentally, as a history reference, he loved 'Uncle' Joe Mercer and insisted he was the greatest skipper ever. After the 'Double', in a quiet, almost apologetic and disloyal manner said, 'I think Frank is a better captain than Joe was.' That is a sweet memory of a dear friend, which was in a dusty back room in my head. Thanks for raising the blinds Ron and letting the light flood in. He was a good man and a good Gooner.

  33. Ron

    Nov 18, 2013, 17:02 #41977

    Yes. Purple/bluish shirts and socks. White shorts. Good kit 68/69 ish.

  34. BADARSE

    Nov 18, 2013, 16:51 #41976

    Well again Ron, personal taste, odd little foibles we carry around with us and sometimes take to the grave are all a part of the individual. My Dad, the wisest man I ever met, drummed in to me that I had to think 'different', not 'wrong'. It works in so many ways and at other levels too. Ironically we are going to merge in a moment. My personal favourite is the all red sock with a thin band of white running through the turnover. These are different, almost unique, and red socks goes better I think with the white shorts in the middle and the red of the shirt. It is more aesthetically pleasing to my eyes, a tilt to feng shui, ha ha. Gone all cosmic again, where's that bucket of water?

  35. Ron

    Nov 18, 2013, 16:51 #41975

    Hibbee - Hibs have always been my favourite side in the Scottish game. Up until the last few years, i used to get up to Perth quite often and was taken a few times to Hibs. Loved it. Hibs = Joe Baker link. Thats where my affection came from matey. Great stuff! Actually made the effort a time or two to see Joe play for Forest (mate was a big Forest fan and still is) after he was sold. He had 1 good season there and the mancs pipped them to the title one year. 67 i think? Wasnt near as mobile or committed as at the Arsenal but was still good to see him.I reckon his fitness had tailed off and thats why we sold him. Good side Forest then though. Henry Newton and Billy Mc Kinley Peter Grummitt in goal etc

  36. Hibeegunner

    Nov 18, 2013, 16:47 #41974

    Guys do you remember we had an away kit that was navy blue with white trim or was it a shade of purple I think it was only used for one season. My first kit did not have the hooped socks and I was really disappointed I wanted to Vic Groves or Derek Tapscott but the socks let me down as they were plain red.

  37. Ron

    Nov 18, 2013, 16:38 #41973

    BADARSE - Good points mate. Do you recall that kit we had with the two stripes down the sides of our shorts and red shirts with red sleeves and all res socks with a stripe at the top? It didnt last long. The shorts stripes were popular then with other Clubs. Billy Wright changed the kit from the traditional one thinking it would change our luck!PS Give me the red socks any day mate. Even now when we wear the red ones away from home, we look like we mean business. As for the all white ones of latter years - too nancy boy style and worse, to tottnhamish by far, not nice! mad isnt it how things affect us as fans.

  38. Hibeegunner

    Nov 18, 2013, 16:31 #41972

    Ron I agree with you saw Joe B score 9 goals for Hibs in a Scottish Cup game then he was transferred to Torino came back to play in a game at Easter Road which was part of the deal. Could not believe my luck when Arsenal signed him as he was my favourite Hibs player. John Radford what a player but then all of that side where great lead by our best skipper of all time F.McL what memories.

  39. BADARSE

    Nov 18, 2013, 16:25 #41970

    westlower I never knew about Matt Lucas sitting there at all. It's another little gem you've given, and to know the name Thenardier you are either a theatre buff or have a link with this particular show. Ah, empty chairs and empty tables! By the way Arsenal Fan's response to my cosmic rush had me laughing an hour later, it really tickled me. We is taking over this website, ha ha. The Old Guns Network! @ Ron, I love the hooped socks chum. Just personal taste of course. You know Herbie Chapman introduced them as he believed the players would pick them out more quickly when a pass was on. It still carries weight in my book. My first kit had blue and white hooped socks, or stockings as they were referred to, mind the shorts in an earlier age were called knickers, ha ha. As a youngster I was very impressed that our hoops were not in traditional bands, but blue, white, blue, big band of white, and blue once more. Think it was that format. I loved us being unique even in hoop spacing on socks! Glad we agree on the important issues though, like Frank as Captain Fantastic. The Young Guns must be aware he was more than a bit special if he eclipsed the great Tony Adams.

  40. Ron

    Nov 18, 2013, 16:08 #41969

    Hibee - The one and only matey - I give you Mr Joe Baker, closely followed by Mr John Radford who ive had the pleasure of talking to twice and first got his autograph outside West Broms ground in 68 (ive still got it!!), both times i was like a star struck kid. Smashing bloke. Great CF. We ve had some astonishing strikers over my time as a Gunners fan and to see us making do now, is pitiful and does nothing for our history or image (i like Giroud, but he s no chance of being talked about in 50 years time) BADARSE - Yes. So true re Simmo. JJ - Bang on re Frank Mac. What a player. No skipper gets close, inc Adams in my view.

  41. Ron

    Nov 18, 2013, 15:57 #41968

    BADARSE - and those awful hooped socks. We wore them both in 68 and 69 didnt we. Disliked them then and disliked them ever since. Theyre OK for a team of cloggers to wear.Look so crude. Todays yellow kit is nice but the socks are awful and ruin it in my view. Hooped socks = defeat!PS Charlton backed in and used his arm that day didnt he. He was a crude lumpen clogger wasnt he. Neck like a giraffe! I recall when he was being idolised by the Irish in 1990 and all i could think of was what a cheating vile geordie crud he was from 68.

  42. Westlower

    Nov 18, 2013, 15:54 #41967

    Hibeegunner, The best centre forwards I have seen are: David Herd, Joe Baker, John Radford, Alan Smith, Ian Wright & Thierry Henry. I'd be happy if any of them were leading the line in our present side. Badarse, In your cosmic rush you mentioned Les Mis. Are you aware Matt Lucas used to sit in the westlower? He played the Innkeeper, Thenardier, in the 25th anniversary of Les Mis at the O2.

  43. BADARSE

    Nov 18, 2013, 15:42 #41966

    Hibeegunner welcome to the Old Guns Network. My vote goes to Big Raddy. I know who will get Ron's vote and it's a good choice but he can respond personally. jj McLintock was pure footballing class, you are so right, as well as being the greatest skipper to ever draw breath, I'd still hobble through a wall for him. As for 'Stan', dear old Peter Simpson, I think he was the best uncapped player ever. Today he would get a century of them. His era he had to get past Bobby Moore who was never injured. Perhaps why they called him 'Tarzan'.

  44. BADARSE

    Nov 18, 2013, 15:31 #41964

    Ron and jj, I was at the '68 Final. It was a drab overcast day, and the only thing to brighten surroundings was our red and white shirts. At a corner Charlton would position himself on the goal line immediately in front of the keeper. The moment the ball was in flight he would step back into the keeper or a flailing arm would catch him. Then Terry Cooper on this occasion picked up the scraps and thundered in a shot. 1-0. They got away with this for 2-3 seasons, others had copied their evil tactics but eventually it was picked up by the refs. Remember only ten years earlier in the Bolton V Man.U FA Cup Final Nat Lofthouse (The Lion of Vienna), had bundled keeper Harry Greg and ball over the line, and there was never any doubt that the goal would stand. We were in the dark ages then in many respects. A different time, a different zeitgeist. Don Revie was a hypocritical man without principles. He would make any players who came for dinner say grace before eating, then as England manager he arranged a private deal with the arabs to scoot off and manage them. He took his pieces of silver readily. Many, 'I want to be a winner' footie fans took up as their supporters, they 'married in haste' and for a long time since have been 'repenting at leisure'. Good!

  45. jjetplane

    Nov 18, 2013, 15:31 #41963

    Ron Mac kept that silkiness which reminded me of GG's class on the ball - a Scottish thing. Simmo was everywhere and nowhere - probably the nearest one player got to being Total Football on his todd. Sure Paddy Rice worked in that grocer's across from the now Auld Tri .... Think he went to my old scgool but can't verify. Think we had one spud in the whole school and he only told me a quarter of a century later on a piss-up in India. There was a beer out there called Gunner 2000 which was a tad strong .... Talking of crowds now - think it was a Man City mid week that was the biggest I encountered - still got the indent of the railing on my post beer gut. Just like Ibiza in the early days on here Arsenal Fan .....

  46. Hibeegunner

    Nov 18, 2013, 15:12 #41962

    Ron, Badarse & Co We should form an old boys club and debate the good old days. Who was our best centre forward over to you guys.

  47. Ron

    Nov 18, 2013, 13:32 #41961

    JJ - He had been given a rough time v Jack Charlton and Co in the 68 final a bit before that game. Their goal came from a sure foul on Furnell by that lumbering jackass Charlton and there was a right old storm over it. (Leeds corners meant a foul on the keeper was coming for them to create a chance then) Maybe in fairness to JF his confidence was rocked after the Leeds game hence his blunder v Bham City, who were a pretty dismal team then for us to lose to ultimately in the FAC. Then again Cup exits were always dreadful days in those mid 60s days ie Lost to Peterboro just a couple of years before!Oddly enough, Don Howe to an extent preached and copied Leeds tactics to our 1971 team. Teams did try and 'ape' the cynicism of it in the 70s and we learned from that 68 Final what it took to win. It led to Storey being the player he became as he had been a 'freindly' but avarage full back before we created the animal in him. Frank Mac (once a midfield schemer type of player dont forget) and Simmo learned how to dish it out and do professional fouls as did Eddie Kelly and the rest of the team werent shrinking violets either were they.Great days as a fan.

  48. BADARSE

    Nov 18, 2013, 13:28 #41960

    Arsenal Fan, best laugh of the day. Thanks for reining us in, throw another bucket of cold water over me.

  49. Arsenal Fan

    Nov 18, 2013, 13:21 #41959

    Is this a dating site?

  50. BADARSE

    Nov 18, 2013, 13:11 #41958

    jjetplane you just get better and better; I knew you couldn't be all bad, and I knew I wasn't, and we've met in the middle as pretty good Gooners. Nice to read your list again now you've explained. Nostalgia of all things is powerful medicine, a hook to hang your focus on, like a game or an era just lights everything up. Whoops I'm going all cosmic again. I love Radio 4, Indian food, The Beatles/John Lennon, TV series MASH, Fawlty Towers the best sitcom ever, Les Mis musical, actors like Hoffman, Damon, Dench, and a bundle of others, walks in the sunshine, John Steinbeck and an army of other writers, icons like Dawkins, Cox, Benn, stand-ups like Dara O'Briain, Jeremy Hardy and a gang of like-minded comics. Bergkamp, McLintock and the class of '71,then of course there is the Arsenal!

  51. jjetplane

    Nov 18, 2013, 12:32 #41957

    Some things stay with you forever and Mr Furnell falling into the net in the FA cup against the Brummies in 67/68 in what was one of the most atmospheric highbury days I ever witnessed. The 'Zulu' army they brought down that day turned the north bank blue. Power to their elbow is all you can say. They went on to beat us in the replay. I was still in the schoolboys at the time so your head was at pitch level and everybody on the pitch was a giant. All you could smell was earth and tobacco and stare in kid wonderment at it all. Can still see Jim F right now falling into the same net I would in joy a few years later. Badarse - nice one blokie and K K Korner was a joke shop on Hornsey Rd in the 60s so all the names a little flashback of the culture then. Forgot to mention Alladin's bookshop who did a great line in Monster Mags. Talking of monsters - Jim Furnell, oh my.

  52. radfordkennedy

    Nov 18, 2013, 12:22 #41956

    Geoff Barnett,dear old geoff I've known plenty booed off and Eddie Mcgoldrick the only player booed on,but when they announced geoff,s name people used to burst out laughing,I'm not sure what's worse being booed or laughed at

  53. BADARSE

    Nov 18, 2013, 8:17 #41954

    Good morning gentlemen. My personal memory of Jim 'Fingers' Furnell was running onto the pitch as a 'just teenager' as the final whistle went. I was at the Clock End in those junior informative years. It had been raining incessantly and stepping onto the pitch and into the penalty area I was suddenly slipping and sliding with my flat-soled shoes. It seemed to come as a complete surprise to me that it might be difficult to run across. I got to Jim as he trudged in a workmanlike fashion towards the edge of the area. I asked for his autograph and he said, 'Later. I've got a guts ache at the moment.' He rubbed his stomach as if to emphasise the point. Trying to be his equal I smiled and said, 'OK', then for some obscure reason I patted his belly. Naivety of childhood. I suppose it could have been confused as the laying on of hands by a zealot, but his 'keeping never got any better. Memories!

  54. Roy

    Nov 17, 2013, 22:41 #41953

    Graham Stack anyone ? Played in the League Cup campaign 03/04 when we lost to Middlesboro in the semis. Easy to forget in that particular season !

  55. Ron

    Nov 17, 2013, 21:42 #41952

    Hi fella s. SGRB beat me to it. I was gonna mention Poom. For me 1. Wilson 2. Seaman 3. Jennings 4. Ill have to say Jack kelsey though i never saw him, but my Dad enthused over him and said he was the finest he ever saw and he knew his footie did my Dad (and fella lets have none of the 'unlike his Son then jibes' ha!!) . Have to say that i never rated Lehmann as a truly top class Keeper. At his best he was quite good but with his loony temperament he fell short for me. He wasn't ever far from a cock up and i dont believe he was hard and brave as he liked to portray. On a good day, he was very good, but you never knew what type of day you were going to get. Temperament is a keepers major facet. The act of keeping however good is nothing without it. Willow and Spunky were solid citizens and i believe so was Kelsey. Jim Furnell gets my comic keeper award. Largely clueless, hence he was just a reserve keeper before he joined us. His defence in the mid 60s knew it too hence they were a collective bag of shaky nails. Tony Burns was better as was Mc Kechnie i always felt, though i was looking through a kids eyes then i admit, so maybe im wrong.

  56. BADARSE

    Nov 17, 2013, 19:53 #41950

    SGRB I think 'Safe Hands' was not only our best, but England's best.

  57. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 17, 2013, 18:00 #41949

    Mart Poom played for us in mid-2000s, albeit it only a game or two I think, was signed as a third choice I recall. I'd say Seaman was our last great GK.

  58. Carlos

    Nov 17, 2013, 16:31 #41948

    Goalkeeper called Lee Harper played one game for us away at Southampton in the 90's and kept a clean sheet in a 2-0 win. Went on to play for Northampton Town and player/manage Kettering Town.

  59. BADARSE

    Nov 17, 2013, 15:55 #41947

    westlower those four are my four, I think they all shaded Jennings, but marginally in some cases perhaps. I always thought Rami Shabaan was going to be a very good keeper but his injury put paid to his chances.

  60. Westlower

    Nov 17, 2013, 14:45 #41946

    If anyone can add to the list of GK's please do so as I've bound to have missed someone. I've omitted Jim Furnell who as Ron will testify always put on a show. Life was never dull when Jim was in goal, rushing headless chicken style from his line was his party piece. I named Alex Manniger twice, so he must have been good! New York, New York. Anyone out there (apart from John Snedden, allegedly) ever see Liza Minnelli live?

  61. Westlower

    Nov 17, 2013, 14:32 #41945

    Badarse, Just for completeness here are the Keepers to add to your list who've played for AFC since 1960. John McClelland, Jim Standen, Ian McKechnie, Tony Burns, Geoff Barnett, Malcolm Webster, Paul Barron, George Wood, Rhys Wilmot, Alan Miller, Vince Bartram, Alex Manniger, Stuart Taylor, Rami Shaaban, Alex Manniger, Manual Almunia, Lukasz Fabianski, Vito Mannone, Damian Martinez, Wojciech Szczesny. My favourite keepers in no particular order, Jack Kelsey, Jens Lehmann, Bob Wilson & David Seaman.

  62. BADARSE

    Nov 17, 2013, 13:00 #41944

    Afternoon guys, only passing through but wanted to say good on you SGRB and maguirebridge for joining the group. It's my age-circles I move in but jjetplane much of what you have listed is 'Chinese' to me, my failing I'm sure. I love your effusiveness, it's contagious fella. All those little strands connecting us to that magical era/game. Well done to you buddy. Ditto Jimmy Rimmer, we have been blessed with superb 'keepers through the years, Swindon, Kelsey, Wilson, Jennings, Rimmer, Lukic, Seaman, Lehman...Sir Chesney has big boots to fill, so needs a little encouragement. Did anyone know that Patsy Rice used to return for extra training as he was aware of his limitations, no limitations on the size of his Arsenal heart!

  63. jjetplane

    Nov 16, 2013, 20:11 #41942

    Staprest, Shermans, Jarmans, Klaws Krazy Korner, the Tin Shed, Four Tops, Jackson 5, Schoolboys, Clock End, East/West lower, Furnell falling into the net against Birmingham who took the bleedin' Northbank, a chip from Graham, a rocket from Samuels, free hot dogs after the match, Kelly and that smile, Drakeley Court boys, Hungry Hill lads,Laurel's fish shop, Martie Feldman, The Royal, Bird's Nest, Cong Club, The Wilmot, playgrounds on roofs .... and being on that pitch that night .... Bless the Arsenal.

  64. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 16, 2013, 19:42 #41941

    Ron, he certainly is he'd give Steven Howard a run for his money any day. Westlower i already have i've been told it'll be in my stocking. To those concerned, or indeed anyone, i meant what i said yesterday about an article or two on the old days even if it consists of a story or two. And if the last few days on here and others are anything to go by that won't be a problem.

  65. Ron

    Nov 16, 2013, 18:34 #41940

    Westie - Yes they cant take that off Rioch. That was our Brucie Bonus!Still think he might have done OK. We ll never know. Ill get DB s book to add to the library! Thanks.

  66. Westlower

    Nov 16, 2013, 18:27 #41939

    SGRB, Ron, Bruce Rioch will always be remembered as the man who signed Bergkamp. Highly recommend the new Dennis Bergkamp book, Stillness & Speed. Very revealing about some of the stuff that went on behind the scenes. Fergie tapping up Tony Adams,etc. Adams quoted as saying "Dennis had walked into a mess". Put it on your wish list for Christmas.

  67. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 16, 2013, 17:59 #41938

    Self-correction: Stewart Houston's few months as caretaker, we finished 12th, not 10th, whilst reaching CWC final. Yes, Pat Rice, straddled two eras as a player really didn't he, as was in the '71 double team then captain for the '79 cup winning team, ending an 8 year drought. In hindsight he may wish he'd stopped being AW's no.2 quite a bit earlier, before the questioning of how things were done once the decline set in.

  68. Ron

    Nov 16, 2013, 17:51 #41937

    SGRB - Well done matey.Thanks for that. You ll have Westie after you claiming youre after his job!! Blimey id forgotten BR! Its that Pat Rice period i had in mind then. He was a gutsy full back in his day. Used to get to me when you used to hear younger fans call Pat the 'cone man'and ask 'what did he do'. Gunner through and through that man is.

  69. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 16, 2013, 17:28 #41936

    Ron, Houston took over when Graham left early '95, we weren't too good in the league (it's the '10' in Westlower's list) but got to CWC final again ... let's draw a blind over that one there. Then we had the Rioch season, then Pat Rice was in charge for first few games 96/97 and team started well before Wenger took over Sept '96. That was my youth so probably why I remember the era so well.

  70. Ron

    Nov 16, 2013, 17:19 #41935

    SGRB - Ditto that sentiment pal. Anybody recall how well i seem to recall we played between GG and AW ie with no boss (was it Houston holding the reins guys?). Westie - as youre our official old farts stat man, can you dig anything up matey. Seem to remember we were on a roll pre AW?

  71. Stroud Green Road Boy

    Nov 16, 2013, 17:07 #41934

    Interesting to see the league positions laid out like that, Westlower. Funny to see how many 4ths we got during GG's 8/9 years, when we think of that as 'our' position now. And I'd happily of accepted a couple of 10ths and 12ths in the last 8 years if there'd been a couple of 1sts in there too.

  72. Ron

    Nov 16, 2013, 16:55 #41933

    Hi guys Jimmy Rimmer. One of the best keepers we ve ever had. Unheralded as we were so awful. Jimmy was later excellent for Villa as they went and won the title in 81 and EC in 82. Im sure Jimmy got injured in that Final in 82 pre kick off and another lad took his place and played so well as Villa beat Munich.Very good Villa side. Mortimer Shaw Bremner Withe Morley and Evans at al.

  73. Westlower

    Nov 16, 2013, 16:13 #41932

    Jimmy, Just to back up your point about nearly being relegated in 74/75 & 75/76: P42, W13, L18, D11, F47, A49, PTS37, POS16th. 75/76: P42, W13, L19, D10, F47, A53, PTS36, POS17th. Our league position from 71 to 96: 1, 5, 2, 10, 16, 17, 8, 5, 7, 4, 3, 5, 10, 6, 7, 7, 4, 6, 1, 4, 1, 4, 10, 4, 12, 5.

  74. radfordkennedy

    Nov 16, 2013, 16:00 #41931

    SKG big hats off to your dad I'm an old matelot myself,its impossible for me to describe on a forum such as this just what your dad went through but let me paint a picture for you your dad would have been asigned to smash ice of the rails and decking before she got top heavy this would of been done at around minus 20 all the while praying that a u boat hadn't found you bearing this in mind doesn't that show you the power of love for Arsenal...jimmy ur right mate there's a lot of youngish fans who don't know that if it wasn't for jimmy rimmer we would have been relegated in the mid 70s

  75. BADARSE

    Nov 16, 2013, 15:44 #41930

    Just sat down for 5 mins and saw all your posts, wow guys! I take my hat off to you Ron, westlower, Seven Kings, radfordkennedy and you too Jimmy. Yes I have 5 heads, doesn't everyone? I have to go shortly and I want to jaw with you fellas. Magical posts, I am back in the day. Great story SKG, will tell my friends this evening. Ron this modern world is killing me, it hurts most because of the separation of generations, and non-comprehension. Generations will always need bridges but the grey men are trying their best to destroy them, that way you cut the info which guides the youngsters. Then you redirect them your way. That night was my greatest night in football. A vegetable dhansak, with a few fresh green chilis on the side. Radio 4's 'I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue', listening to 'Imagine', remembering the way my Mum and Dad kissed me, my wife telling me despite everything, that she still loves me, holding the hand of the old and frail Tony Benn and telling him he helped shape my life, and a cup of Rosie in my Mum's china teacup. Over to you guys, and a soft but sincere 'thank you'. See what that picture of Frank evokes?

  76. Jimmy

    Nov 16, 2013, 15:01 #41929

    @Ron great post.The failure to build on the Double win in 1971 was down to rank bad management.With two crucial decisions.After getting to the cup final in 72 and finishing runners up in 73 Mee broke up the team.Selling McLintock who still had two good years left in him(he went on to nearly win the title with QPR) and replacing him first with Blockley then Mancini a right pair of donkeys.And then he sold Ray Kennedy to Liverpool and the rest was history.In 75 and 76 we were lucky not to be relegated.Only those who were around in those days will know how close it was

  77. Westlower

    Nov 16, 2013, 13:44 #41928

    Seven Kings Gooner, Don't think badly of your father for not wanting to be at that game. I confess to a similar story in 89. Although the Liverpool game was live on tv I couldn't bare to watch us fall at the last hurdle so I went to P'boro dogs to get away for the evening. Every 10 mins I returned to my car to monitor our progress. Felt satisfied at 1-0 we'd given it a good go and could hold our heads high we'd beaten the Champions on their own turf. On my final visit to the car all let broke loose and I ran back into the dog track screaming that Arsenal had beaten Liverpool 2-0. One of the bookies didn't believe me so I turned on him and asked for a price on Arsenal being Champions. There was no reply, total silence!

  78. Ron

    Nov 16, 2013, 13:21 #41927

    SKG - Nice post mate. I had horrible acne too! From 14 to when i was about 19. It used to make facial skin feel so tight!I used to get my Dads razor and run it down both sides of my face to ease it. Lovely. Face running with blood, i would then run into wherever my Sisters were and growl at them while getting close!! They used to scream like mad. They still talk of it now mate. Swindon was a terrible blow. At least dirty, f----ng, cheating Leeds (still detest that Club even now - Allan Clarke and Reaney told me to 'f--k off' one day at Euston station when i asked the big skinny ba----d for his autograph, i was 16) the year before were a top side and expected to beat our class of 68.

  79. Ron

    Nov 16, 2013, 13:06 #41926

    Morning R/K and Westie - Most definitely. That 1970 win is and always will be a major 'roof support' in Arsenals glorious history. It meant we were 'back,it was our release from the 68 and 69 Finals of deep rooted gloom, it was the Spuds brief period of flaky hegemony laid to rest (and in my view never retrieved in North London). It meant the pride surged back through the Club in a way not seen since the mid 30s. It also meant that the Northern giants knew that the Capital had at last produced some thing more for once than a flaky, soft bellied preening powder puff team that needed taking seriously which was all Chelsea (they did have some good players admittedly) and the Spuds ever were in their good days of the mid 60s as we floundered. The years that followed as we allowed that surge to fade after the double was tragic and rank bad management. Man Utd had faded. Leeds best surge had passed and Arsenal should have been up there neck and neck with the great Liverpool teams of the 70s. On that point, while not detracting from Liverpools heady days of the 70s and 80s, that it was them as one club so dominant was in large part due to their being real opposition to challenge them in that 20 year period. Arsenal should have been that Club. It was all there ready and able to be done.As a final point i would honestly say that had we have won in 06 in Paris, for me anyway, it wouldnt have surpassed 1970.Non Arsenal fans will never understand will they fellas? We should still play in that kit. None better!

  80. Seven Kings Gooner

    Nov 16, 2013, 12:54 #41925

    Westflower: You are so right about that night, if we had been 3-1 down now I would have given us no chance but I was 19 and cocky and thought anything was possible. Ten of us went in 2 cars, parked up in Brownswood Road and entered the Kings Head at 6.00pm and got stuck into the draft Guinness (My doctor told me it was good for my acne - it of course had no effect on my "boat race" but after a few pints I could n't give a toss about my spots!) It was just a wonderful "blokes night out" However always was the sad fact that my father chose not to come - he could not bare the thought of defeat,(Swindon had effected dad quite badly) My father who had been on the Atlantic convoys, plus 2 trips to Murmansk, could not face another cup final defeat. He volunteered for a night shift at work and told me to come and see him only if Arsenal had won. So at 11.30pm the shift foreman lets in a very merry Gooner, I can still see dad's face now, he picked me up like a rag doll and swung me around and then demanded all the wonderful details of the night's action. My best memory ever of Arsenal and Frank's wonderful leadership. Great article Alex.

  81. Westlower

    Nov 16, 2013, 12:18 #41924

    R/K, Spot on, as that night defined why we support AFC. Nothing before or since surpassed that night. So many things have happened in our lives since but I still get very emotional thinking about that pivotal game. It justified our support through the lean times of never winning anything for 17 years. The game was devoid of Sky experts, know it all pundits, journalists with negative agendas, just a stadium full of passionate (probably pissed)expectant Gooners, willing victory under the wonderful Highbury floodlights. It was the game of a lifetime and then some!! If you could bottle what that team had you'd make a fortune, balls in abundance! Being picky R/K, I'd have gone with All Along The Watchtower,fishing in the Great Ouse, walking a greyhound & watching Forgive win, in my list of all time favourites.

  82. radfordkennedy

    Nov 16, 2013, 10:42 #41923

    Radio 4 on DAB,the sunday telegraph,frank coopers oxford marmalade,gloucester old spot bacon,walking along the river windrush,hey joe on volume 11,marquesa de riscal rioja,the smell of hot olive oil garlic and squid,...these are a few of my favourite things..but nothing compares to the picture and the memories of the night above

  83. Ron

    Nov 16, 2013, 10:17 #41922

    Hibeeunner - I wouldnt dream of it. Just using them to make my point ha. I think you know that though. Yes, aware of that 36-0 stat as well. You never know, we might tonk Man U by the same score one distant day!!

  84. Mike

    Nov 16, 2013, 9:57 #41920

    Arsenal's qualifying group is anything but dull at the moment - every game is crucial

  85. Hibeeunner

    Nov 16, 2013, 9:47 #41919

    Ron 17.20 15th Nov Ron don't mock Arbroath they hold the record for the highest score in a game when they beat Bon Accord 36-0 on the 12/09/1885 but alas no C.L. in those days. By the way their home kit is the same design as ours.

  86. Ron

    Nov 16, 2013, 9:42 #41918

    Hi BADARSE - Talk about dumbing down in a footie context matey, take last night. Eng beaten by a far fitter, more intelligent, competent and technically proficient team all of whose players were supremely and admirably confident with a football at their feet and played to feet and yet alas..... what do the dumbed down moronic hordes do who were at that awful stadium? yes, booed them off! I was talking of match goers anti 'the other team' malaise the other day as a feature of where football's has gone to the dogs, such an approach fueled by SKY and its like and the internet affording every tom dick and prat a voice. Last night summed it up.I stopped going regularly to games 2 seasons back. Hearing that makes me so glad that i did. My late Dad and my Uncle (still here) who introduced me to football back in the early 60s always used to say, youve got to give credit to the other team who beat you properly. Its very sad to me that such a simple and cost free principal has long since gone isnt it.

  87. MarkH

    Nov 16, 2013, 8:46 #41917

    Andy- and that is all Wenger's fault is it?

  88. BADARSE

    Nov 16, 2013, 8:16 #41916

    Morning stevieo. The way the world is shaping is a design. A loose and flexible one, but a desired objective nonetheless. We are merely pawns in this global game. After the second world war the powers that be began to divide the map, and after trials and tribulations, which are still on going, began the structure of change. A world government is on the far off agenda. The first step is to nullify the population. That is happening as I type. We have to be corralled into large manageable groups, so religion helps. We are dumbing down at an alarming rate. Some children, when the name Churchill is mentioned think it is a dog to do with insurance. AFC is caught up in the whirl, as are we. The only satisfaction is a personal one. You hang on to what you believe is right, and maintain your own standards. Beyond that we are lost. Tragic isn't it? We are on the cusp of a wondrous age and it's been commandeered by the fat cats and the top cats. Any shard of light on the subject seems too severe and extreme so is dismissed. Focus on shooting the soldiers when it's the top brass we should be aiming at. Wars are started, governments overthrown, then it settles into a similar state. Anyway as I often say when speechless and frustrated Good Old Arsenal. It's OK guys BADARSE is a loon, so carry on as before, so what's on telly tonight?

  89. Stevieo

    Nov 16, 2013, 7:39 #41915

    Ron, I thought this bubble would have burst by now. But we've been in the worst recession since the 1920's and it's just got bigger. BT have stuck their oar in now, so there's more money in the mix. I can't see if bottoming out. When it evolves in to a Super League, can you imagine the advertising they'll throw at us to spruce it up. Badarse is right. The corporations tell us what we want. If it does start to fall flat, they'll just make the goals bigger and get rid of the offside rule, and launch it to the American market.

  90. BADARSE

    Nov 16, 2013, 6:11 #41913

    Sorry Andy, but your post is meaningless to me. The history of teams is just that, history! The stats, honours, achievements have to be tempered and understood for what they are. Teams can and do win cup competitions. We have been within an ace of parading many other cups from Europe. Twice beaten on penalties. and been the better side in both games. A fluke goal in the last minute of extra time when we looked set for more penalties. Then leading in the Champions League Final with ten men, and Henry one on one late in the game, only to fluff his lines. If you adopt, or for that matter, anyone adopts a more balanced view, it becomes much more reasonable. My grandson plays and the coaches, or greybeards like me, tell him it was just a whisker away from success, if circumstance conspires to defeat his team. Fine lines my friend. Tear up the blueprint and rant at the generals? You are at liberty to do so, but a more rational approach would be to recognise at different times in life, as well as a game of football, incidents occur and you win or lose. I would suggest to my grandson he enjoys the winning, and realises he was often close and doing the right things when he narrowly lost.

  91. Andy

    Nov 15, 2013, 23:33 #41910

    A sad fact Arsenal 2 European trophy wins,The Spuds 3 European trophy wins and Chelsea 4 European trophy wins including of course the first London team to win the Champions league.We are not even the 2nd most successful London team in Europe.Shame on you Wenger

  92. Ramgun

    Nov 15, 2013, 21:52 #41908

    I hope that a European League comes because it would flop totally. The clubs were forced to get rid of one of the Champions League group stages by the money men because they did not like their products being advertised by empty stadiums. Just who would be interested in a mid or lower table league match in a meaningless, tradition-free league with no local derbies?

  93. BADARSE

    Nov 15, 2013, 21:30 #41907

    Oh stevieo, what a bleak picture you paint. It is what we have all settled for. How very sad and yes, passionless. The thing is, as I have been banging on about the bigger picture ever since I began posting a few months ago, it is societies all over the globe producing this tasteless fare. We have allowed the companies to grow too big. They shape and control governments, who in turn allow them carte blanche. They pacify the young by offering eye candy and goodies to play with. Then they rewrite the script, whether it be the CL format or the voting system, or anything which gives them more control. Then we have lonely stevieo's and BADARSE's who recognise the yawning chasm ahead but can't attract the driver's attention to put the brakes on. Seems we are all destined to go over the edge my friend. Not nice, is it? For the time being at least, Good Old Arsenal.

  94. Ron

    Nov 15, 2013, 21:25 #41906

    Stevieo - Youre so right. You just forgot to mention about how the sterile format you predict will drive all of the TV companies out though and thus the cash cow dies instantly It's a domesday scenario but one that football needs to wake it up and deliver it back to the real supporters.

  95. Stevieo

    Nov 15, 2013, 21:12 #41905

    A good read. All European games of all 3 cups were played on a Wednesday with none of this stupid Thursday teatime football? Every game was a cup tie, unlike this procession of group games where the seeded teams are virtually through after three games, and any defeat is just shrugged off as irrelevant. As for the Europa Cup, the only reasoning I can see behind this is to incorporate the champions of Latvia and Faroe Islands as Europe now has four times the number of countries it used to. I know times change, but how stale is the game nowadays? Passionless stadiums and multi millionaires going through the motions on the pitch. Bring on the European super league which is imminent. It will be a stale Serie A style league, with TV dictating games are played over the course of the week. Saturday football will be totally dead. The FA can then well and truly pat themselves on the back as the last remaining domestic trophy worth winning also becomes meaningless. And the fans can then celebrate Arsenal making more money, which is how success seems to be measured these days. Give me an FA Cup 3rd Round 4th replay against Sheffield Wednesday any day of the week than this sterile CL format.

  96. BADARSE

    Nov 15, 2013, 17:23 #41903

    Just a couple of pointers regarding cup competitions. Any reasonable side can win one. Generally though, the bigger or better clubs do. That is a given, even in my grandsons schoolboy team. You know the good sides in the divisions. You get a lift if one takes a surprise tumble, you get a safe draw and squeak through, then you play out of your skins in the next round, and survey the situation from perhaps the Q/F stage. You get the weakest of the other seven sides, deeming yourself to be the worst. You dream then of getting into the S/F and it's one game from the final. Then reality bites you on the bum and you are beaten. You didn't enter to lose, you didn't enter to win, you entered to possibly give a good account of yourselves and hopefully enjoy the experience. That is fundamental. With the moneymen dictating the directions of all things, sport, and specifically football, we are dragged along with the crowd. You might not like some aspects of the game but can hardly change the rules of Monopoly if you sit down to play with friends. The rewards are immense so we go with the flow, and will continue to do so. Many multi-nationals are more powerful than small countries now, they orchestrate political mayhem. Nothing is sacred. I really don't like the route we are taking but I'm not driving the bus. It is as it is. Legislation may alter some aspects but as the article suggests 'we' are 'them'.

  97. Ron

    Nov 15, 2013, 17:20 #41902

    Jeff - You, I and many others have suggested the same im sure. I agree with you totally. A straight knock out would to a large extent remove the unfair advantage that the wealthier Clubs have in that competition if only on the basis that in a 'one off', anything can happen. Im for that or your other option at any time. Some of its credibilty would be restored. It wont happen as Platini and the TV companies cant risk their little, whiter than white lovelies ie Madrid Barca and Munich plus, i suppose the Mancs being eliminated by Glentoran or Arbroath in Round 1 as they lack the guts to try it and cherish the money too much to risk it, plus if it happened too much the TV would get peed off and then sod off. As we speak i can imagine the CL venue for a Final between Linfield and Brest being played at Loftus Road. Can you see Platini s furrowed, quizzical face as he hands out the gongs wondering who the hell the players are!

  98. jeff wright

    Nov 15, 2013, 16:49 #41900

    I think myself Ron that the so-called Champs League should be either a KO tournament from the start ,or revert back to having just genuine title winners taking part. This of course will never happen due to the big midweek tv money that clubs recieve from the tedious group stages . Having the Europa Cup added as a safety net - if clubs fail to win enough points from the group stage - only makes the whole thing even more tiresome. Is the Europa Cup a prize or a punishment, is the question. I would say that it's a punishment . We should avoid this now after the away result against Dortmund ,although it's never wise to take anything for granted. Especially where Wenger is concerned with his hit and miss record in European football .

  99. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 15, 2013, 16:12 #41898

    Westlower, they did indeed and i'm sure their supporters didn't care about that when the cup was been paraded and like i said i'm sure that would be the last thing on our minds also as jug ears was being held aloft at the town hall.

  100. Ron

    Nov 15, 2013, 15:48 #41897

    Hi Jeff - Yes, Good points. What you say sort of underlines my view on the CL. The truth is that all of the teams save for the elite 3 or 4 who can lay claim to having the capacity to actually play to win it are all 'doing an Arsenal'. No genuine intent or belief to win it, just some romantic notion that they might. It has to fundamentally affect the performances once there and perpetuates the inevitabilty that one of the same old teams who do win it, will actually win it each year as expected, hence tedium. Im all for being 'in it to win it' and all that, but once a team is in something, with no realistic idea on doing so, then the competition is seriously flawed. A bit like a boxing match where one fighter is intent on 'going down' in the 3rd round, so to get his prize money but so that he avoids being hammered out of sight if he tries to hang around in an utter mismatch which said fighter accepts. In other words he may as well not be in the ring in the first place aka us in a CL tourny that we dont want to strive to win. Its a competion that pays lips service to the concept of competition. Compare to whe it was the old EC. The Clubs were the rightful champions. They werent g teed to get in it every season barring a disaster and so every effort was made to win it and enjoy the experience. You might recall that it was common for Champions to have a mundane season the year after a title win, as a result of the focus of their exertions being on the EC. The competition is in my view a money spinning con for nearly all of the teams in it. The 'sport' element has long since gone. In return the fans are told that the CL glory is being sought so domestic challenges are superflous. That cant be right can it? What happened to genuine sporting challenges? It was sacrificed on the alter of the cash box.

  101. Westlower

    Nov 15, 2013, 15:40 #41896

    Maquirebridge Gooner, Man U won the ECL in 98/99, after qualifying as runners up behind Champions Arsenal in Premier League 97/98.

  102. jeff wright

    Nov 15, 2013, 15:20 #41895

    Wenger's record in Europe is one of pyrrhic victories and glorious defeats. Last season was deja vu the previous one -will this one be any different . I hope so - but I wouldn't bet on it . Wenger is always chasing his elusive dream his holy grail is the European Cup - not having won it ( or any other European one) must be hurting him ,with him being a very Euro orientated manager and supposedly a better one than some of the other ones who have won the big-eared jug - or one of the other cups. Mee won a Euro pot and so did Graham - and they had less time than Wenger had had . Wenger is like a white mouse going around endlessly on a wheel- scrapping away each season to qualify for the so-called CL - but never winning it . Sometimes it seems that qualifying for the competition next season is more important than trying to win the cup in the current one - with the big group stage money always needing to be secured before any money is spent in the close season. Those pesky qualifier ties must be a nightmare for Stan and Ivan.

  103. Gare K

    Nov 15, 2013, 14:56 #41893

    Great article.It’s a shame the Champions League has become what it has done in recent years but hey ho there you go. Until we properly compete in it and not just qualify to make up the numbers and milk so much cash, then there is very little point of The Arsenal being in it. And spare me the “we can’t compete” nonsense. Porto 2004 and Liverpool 2005 when we had the ‘Invincible’ team during that period? Qualifying for it annually is the carrot Wenger holds over rival managers at Tottenham, Everton, Liverpool and other similar size clubs since the late 90s when he doesn’t win or comes close to a trophy every season. However, I’ll certainly give him credit for consistent qualification even if we are at best average in the competition. Ok, so I’ll get to see the giants of European football live which is nice but nowadays these teams seem to beat us with ease apart from the odd exception and Wenger very rarely learns from past failures. It’s a shame that his better teams have underachieved in Europe, particularly the 2001-06 collective. The fact that one of the worst Liverpool teams in recent memory (2005) won Europe’s biggest prize and we didn’t is a stain that will live with the club for a very long time. This current lot are nowhere near European greatness. I’m not asking for Europa League football because of the disruption to a domestic season that comes with it (just ask Tottenham) but for once, can we have a proper tilt at winning the European Cup? Or is such a thing beyond us because “we can’t compete”?

  104. Ron

    Nov 15, 2013, 14:27 #41892

    MG - True matey. in 2006 i already had my speech rehearsed for mates ears where i would declare the domestic Cups are nothing and the CL everything ha. At 2-1 13 mins later i binned it!Seriously, though youre absolutely right for most of us.

  105. maguiresbridge gooner

    Nov 15, 2013, 14:05 #41890

    The EL who really would want to be in that? in this day and age anyway even though we've flirted with it ourselves of late, does it ever end? It would be interesting to know if we ever did drop into it what our priorities would be then.The CL, it's all about money alright, and the powers that be just can't get enough, and it won't be changing anytime soon only to maybe let a fifth team in. Would it be the same winning it if you qualified fourth rather than as league winners? would/does it matter? CL winners champions of Europe when your not even champions of your own league. I'd imagine that would be the last thing on our minds as the beer flowed as jug ears made it's way to the town hall. We can only dream.

  106. BADARSE

    Nov 15, 2013, 13:38 #41888

    Thanks westlower, it is flooding back now. I remember the hoo-hah with QPR qualifying in '67. How can a Third Division team go into Europe? Such strait-laced, conservative, traditionalists running the game back then, oh, they're still there!

  107. Westlower

    Nov 15, 2013, 13:26 #41887

    Originally 16 clubs opposed the creation of the LC. It was a consolation event for teams knocked out of the FA Cup. UEFA considered it not worthy of larger clubs attention until an entry into a European competition and a final at Wembley were introduced. QPR, then a 3rd side were the first Wembley winners. In 1968 Man U & 1970 Everton withdrew from the LC to concentrate on Euro competitions. It has always been a secondary competition with the only highlights being in 1987 & 1993. No bias there then!

  108. Ron

    Nov 15, 2013, 12:56 #41882

    BADARSE - Hi mate i stand to be corrected but i think the whole 1st Div had an option pre 1967. Whe QPR beat Albion in it that year, it might have been the 1st time they were all obliged to enter. Westie will be on here in a minute just to prove me wrong, just you see ha!!!

  109. BADARSE

    Nov 15, 2013, 12:33 #41879

    Ron and westlower, in the early years of the Wembley League Cup, 1967 onwards, the League Champions did opt out didn't they? Green Hut, sadly but amusingly true chum.

  110. Ron

    Nov 15, 2013, 11:32 #41872

    Green Hut - True mate. The thing is the teams in it were always there or therabouts in the leagues year on year, whereas the ECWC would often have teams in it who were never near the UEFA Cup places, never mind chasing their titles, so the UEFA Cup was tough to win plus the extra round and the two legged Final of course. It was a good tourny(except when Tottenham devalued it of course!!!)

  111. Green Hut

    Nov 15, 2013, 11:12 #41870

    There was a consensus in the 80's that the UEFA Cup was equally as difficult to win as the European Cup due the fact that, although the teams were marginally inferior, there was an extra round to overcome. Of course that didn't bother us as we were getting knocked by FC Winterslag nice and early!

  112. Ron

    Nov 15, 2013, 10:41 #41867

    For me the CL becomes worth watching at the Qtr Final stage. The rest of it is tedium. The unfolding and birth of the modern day euro tournys is a 'window' to look through and understand fully what football has become. Its not a pretty sight in truth. CL is the barmoeter though of a Clubs status in the european game whether we like it or not. I choose not to like it very much, but would still like to win it. It creates that kind of conflictual thought pattern for me. I think Clubs should be able to opt in or opt out of the Capitol Cup once in the CL.

  113. Tony Evans

    Nov 15, 2013, 9:34 #41863

    I can understand why the European Cup was extended to include teams finishing below the actual champions, as it is all about income generation for the clubs. The sad fact for me as a fan is that we had three great European competitions all with their own prestige and coveted by most supporters, which have been replaced with the awful Europa League and the so called Champions League, which, in it's group stages is more often than not boring in the extreme.

  114. BADARSE

    Nov 15, 2013, 9:28 #41862

    Thanks Alex, like you Tony Evans it hits the spot. @Bard, I don't think he is saying AFC are morally better or higher than the rest, though we do try to follow a code, quite a flimsy and transparent one I admit. You mentioned recently that despite not normally agreeing with me you did on one salutary point in a post. Odd because I agree with much in your posts. In fact here we go again, I agree with all you say apart from the analysis of a part of the article. I never realised you went back so far, I thought you were a younger chap, ha ha...you aren't the actual Bard are you?

  115. Westlower

    Nov 15, 2013, 9:17 #41861

    It's easy to be blase about our perennial seeded appearances in the CL but it remains the best marker of a clubs standing in World football. As long as we keep qualifying I believe that sooner or later we'll win the dam thing! Even if we don't it's wonderful to see the cream of European clubs playing AFC. Because of European competitions I've seen some of football's greatest teams, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Ajax, AC Milan, Bayern, etc. I would never have seen Cruyff in his pomp, Guardiola, Effenberg, Maldini, etc. Beats the crap out of a LC semi at Bradford. Domestic cup competitions pale into insignificance for me. They have little or no bearing on a clubs reputation in the wider football world. Indeed I believe any club playing in a Euro competition should be excluded from the LC. I look forward to the day when AFC become part of a European/World league as it's sure to happen at some time, if only to generate yet more money! Now, where did I put my knitting?

  116. Bard

    Nov 15, 2013, 8:50 #41860

    Interesting and well written Alex. It certainly resonates with me. Having supported the Arsenal since the early 50's I remember the trials and tribulations of the European adventure only too well. I think you're post gets shakier as it goes on as you start making sweeping generalisations. it was and has always been about money its just the sums now are obscene. All teams that have pretensions to winning titles and cup have to invest and the top players always cost the most. I think you fall into the trap of viewing Arsenal as 'morally' above the rest. Arsenal spent 500m on a new stadium so they could increase their revenue. They charge the highest prices so they can increase their revenue. They bought Park to sell shirts in Asia. They have pissed fortunes down the drain on transfers and wages over the last 6-8 years while telling us they were strapped for cash. We have lost the chance of trophies because of our poor buying policy. No mate Arsenal are just like the rest and I attach no blame because of it. But please don't buy into the spin that somehow we have been pursuing a different more morally acceptable agenda, thats rubbish.

  117. Tony Evans

    Nov 15, 2013, 8:19 #41857

    Great article, Alex. My Arsenal support began in late 1970 so I just missed that magical Fairs Cup winning night. Mind you as a 'virgin' supporter back then it would not have meant so much to me as I hadn't gone through the downs of the League Cup final defeats of the late 60s. You have to experience the downs to really appreciate the ups, don't you? Agree with your loathing of the CL, but I fear we are stuck with it for all the reasons you gave.