#ThrowbackThursday - West Ham at Home

A look back at past visits from this weekend’s opponents



#ThrowbackThursday - West Ham at Home

Ron Greenwood at Arsenal: Might a trophy have arrived earlier than 1970?


The season starts with Arsenal meeting their old foes from eight miles down the road, West Ham United – a duel which has fluctuated in intensity over the years and actually dates back to late nineteenth century – before the Hammers were actually founded and prior to Arsenal crossing the river. One commonality that Arsenal and West Ham share is that they were both founded as a by-product of nineteenth century industrialization in London and the growth of leisure time for the working man as a result of progressive legislation which reduced working hours during the latter half of that century. As shown by one of my previous articles on the Football Speak blog site both Arsenal and West Ham’s predecessor club, Old Castle Swifts (along with their East London rivals Millwall) were predominantly founded by Scottish migrant workers at a time when rugby had been the dominant sport in the south of England When Old Castle Swifts had dissolved in 1895, into the void came Arnold Hills of the Thames Ironworks, who – as elaborated on in another one of my previous articles - created a works football side to heal strained relations with his workers. The Irons’ first ever fixture during the 1895/96 season had been against the reserve side of Royal Ordinance Factories FC – a work side founded by David Danskin at the Royal Arsenal at Woolwich in 1893 to replace Woolwich Arsenal who that year turned professional and were founder members of the Southern League. The Irons’ first captain had been Robert Stevenson, a Scottish full back who previously captained Woolwich Arsenal a couple of years previously and was described as: ‘invaluable as an advisor to the fathers of the club’. Later on in that first season, Thames Ironworks were also to host a ground breaking floodlit friendly with Woolwich Arsenal, which the latter won 5-3.

There had been quite a few early friendly fixtures between the two sides – dating back to the days of Thames Ironworks and Woolwich Arsenal - however as pointed out by @HarlowGooner on Twitter last season even by the late 1960s, official fixtures between Arsenal and West Ham United had actually been few and far between with the Hammers actually having the better record from those few fixtures at that point. West Ham were elected to the Football League after the First World War in 1919 and their first fixture of note had been the FA Cup Final of 1923 – the very first game to be held at Wembley Stadium.

The first few FA Cup Finals after the Great War achieved an under-capacity crowd and the FA undertook a major advertising campaign to boost the Cup Final attendance and but for PC Scorey on his white horse, the result could have been disastrous. The official attendance figure had been 126,000, though some estimates point to a figure nearer 300,000 – arguably the biggest attendance ever for a football game! The Hammers lost the final 2-0 to Bolton Wanderers, with the first goal scored by future Arsenal star David Jack That season however, they secured promotion to the top tier of English Football for the first time.

For the first thirty one years of their existence, West Ham were managed by one man – Syd King. One local newspaper described in 1923 that: ‘Syd King is West Ham and West Ham is Syd King’. The Hammers first tenure in the top flight lasted for nine seasons, with the final game between the two at Highbury in 1932 being a 4-1 win in Arsenal’s favour but with injury to Alex James ended up derailing the Gunners League and FA Cup double attempt with Arsenal experiencing a rare trophy-less campaign during that decade.

Worse was to befall the Hammers, who ended up relegated. Syd King – reportedly suffering from alcoholism – had his employment at Upton Park terminated at the end of that season, which led to a spiral of depression leading to him to take his own life within a month by drinking a cocktail of alcohol mixed with a corrosive liquid. This led to a twenty six year absence from the top flight for West Ham, with the only fixture between the two sides being an FA Cup game in 1945/46 which for that year only was a two-legged affair, the Hammers triumphing 6-1 on aggregate over an Arsenal side rebuilding after the war had hit the club particularly hard on and off the pitch.

West Ham returned to the top flight in 1958 under Ted Fenton, however their halcyon age was to come under his successor Ron Greenwood who was appointed in 1961. Prior to Upton Park, Greenwood had been Assistant Manager at Arsenal under first Jack Crayston and then George Swindin. He combined this role with managing the England Under-23s and made Bobby Moore the captain of the side, advising Jack Crayston to buy the West Ham icon Mooro. England’s future World Cup winning captain explained that: ‘if the chance had come I would have loved to have gone to Arsenal…a big club. But I suppose when they made the official approaches West Ham knocked them back’.

As seen from this When Saturday Comes article, Ron was known as a progressive coach very much in awe of the ‘Magnificent Magyars’ who tore England apart at Wembley in 1953, as well as this ITN source footage from August 1960, which shows Greenwood putting to use Hi-Fi remote control equipment to direct players while coaching at Arsenal. Greenwood had wanted to initiate a more attack minded Arsenal, claiming in 1959 that: ‘we’ve got to change or be left behind… to attract the public the game has got to be entertaining and in Football goals are entertaining’. It seems his view wasn’t shared at Highbury and a few days after Tottenham won the double in 1961, Greenwood moved on from Highbury to Upton Park. It’s quite possible however that had Arsenal hired future England manager Greenwood for the main job, the seventeen year trophy drought may have ended a lot sooner.

West Ham managed to win the FA Youth Cup in 1963, followed by the FA Cup a year later and the European Cup Winners Cup in 1965 at Wembley against, 1860 Munich after which BBC commentator Kenneth Wolstenhome, asked whether Bobby Moore would be standing in the same place with the World Cup a year later (of which he duly did, along with Geoff Hurst and Martin Peters). Another pioneering achievement of Ron Greenwood had been the championing of Black footballers, with West Ham being the first side to feature three black players in one side in 1971/72 – Clyde Best, Ade Coker and Clive Charles – at home to Tottenham Hotspur.

This image of West Ham obviously stands juxtaposed to that of probably the club’s biggest fictional fan – the very politically incorrect caricature of Alf Garnett from ‘Til Death Us Do Part’. This episode from that very same year is titled ’Up the Hammers’ and guest stars Bobby Moore, Martin Peters and Arsenal’s Alan Ball in a brief cameo appearance. Much of the language and terminology of this show may be a bit too extreme for 21st century sensitivities, however if anyone is in any doubt as to whether or not the show was an endorsement of racism, they should note that it is highly unlikely that if writer Johnny Speight had intended Alf to be an heroic figure or one to sympathise with, he probably wouldn’t have portrayed him abducting his baby grandson after a skinful, taking him to the terraces of the Boleyn Ground and feeding him whisky as he does @22.00

On the subject of politically incorrect Cockneys, in 1970 Jimmy Greaves transferred to West Ham from Tottenham with Martin Peters going the other way in part exchange. Here’s footage of Jimmy returning to his old stomping ground in August of that year, in a game which ended in a 2-2 draw with Greavsie scoring against his old club. However his brief time at West Ham was nothing short of a disaster, which came to a head in early January of 1971. In the third round of the FA Cup, West Ham were drawn away to Blackpool and on arrival the day before, Greaves and several other players were informed that the frozen pitch meant the fixture was unlikely to go ahead.

Greavsie therefore, along with Bobby Moore, Brian Deer and Clyde Best, spent the night in a club owned by former British Heavyweight Champion Brian London until 2AM downing twelve pints of lager in the process, only for the game the following day to actually go ahead, which West Ham ended up losing 4-0. As a result all four players were dropped for West Ham’s visit to Highbury the following week – which resulted in a comfortable 2-0 victory for the Arsenal. For Greavsie however, it was the beginning of a slippery slope which saw him leave West Ham at the end of the season and disappear from the game altogether (barring the odd few semi-pro appearances throughout the 1970s with sides such as Brentwood, Chelmsford, Barnet and Woodford) while dealing with a drink problem.

As Greavsie explains here to Brian Moore in detail (@1:01:11) while at rock bottom, he was committed to a psychiatric ward in Brentwood before his recovery in the 1980s and a spectacular reinvention as a football pundit for ITV (which may give some hope to the likes of Gazza and Kenny Sansom, both of whom have struggled with the same affliction in recent years). Greavsie’s assertion that Greenwood was losing his way however wasn’t far wide of the mark, as Ron moved upstairs in 1974 leaving the way for his assistant John Lyall to take over, winning the FA Cup in his first season – a run which included a 1-0 win for West Ham at Highbury in the Quarter Final with a goal by Alan Taylor undoubtedly helped by the poor state of the Highbury pitch.

The following season however saw Arsenal respond with a thumping 6-1 win at Highbury. A few months on from this game, Arsenal sold John Radford on to West Ham, though the move turned out badly for Radford who failed to score for the Hammers, however went close here against old rivals Tottenham (who finished this season rock bottom and relegated to Division Two) on New Years’ Day of 1977. Only three points separated West Ham from Tottenham that year however and the following year the Hammers too were to drop out down to the second tier after twenty consecutive years in the top flight. West Ham’s last visit to Highbury during the 1970s resulted in a 3-0 victory for Arsenal in October 1977. The Hammers were to lose their spot in the top tier after suffering defeat to Liverpool in the final fixture the following May.

West Ham’s return to the top flight was by no means immediate and took three years, but in the interim came their last trophy win, the 1980 FA Cup Final against Arsenal. With no disrespect to the Hammers, this upset was in no small part due to Arsenal’s hectic record seventy game long season (covered in full here) and the fact that Arsenal had only booked their place at Wembley just ten days before the final, finally seeing off Liverpool after a third replay. This fact however didn’t stop the Cockney Rejects (in essence, the poor man’s Sham 69) celebrating West Ham’s win on Top of the Pops with their rendition of ‘I’m Forever Blowing Bubbles’

As to why ‘Bubbles’ became West Ham’s anthem, there have been several theories but no conclusive explanation. The song is an old Tin Pan Alley tune which actually originates from the other side of the Atlantic, which was written and first performed in 1919 (it’s doubtful whether most West Ham fans are even aware the song actually has two rarely sung verses – the Cockney Rejects clearly weren’t). The best explanation most probably is that the tune was an old music hall favourite which fans often amused themselves with by collectively singing in the run up to Kick off. After the 1980 FA Cup Final however, West Ham had to wait another two years before returning to Highbury, in the event Arsenal triumphed 2-0 but it would be an afternoon few would remember with much fondness.

Crowd trouble, with West Ham’s ‘Inter City Firm’ attempting to take the North Bank, had interrupted play and further trouble also led to a post-match fatality. Undoubtedly, the events of that afternoon led to relations between Arsenal and West Ham fans reaching an all-time low. Much was made of the reputation of the ICF during the 1980s, including a famed documentary called ‘Hooligan’ by Thames Television in 1985, which surprisingly doesn’t appear on any of the video sharing websites in any form. However the ICF’s famed Cass Pennant does appear in this special episode of LWT’s old late Friday evening current affairs show ‘The London Programme’ on football hooliganism during the early 1980s, along with former Arsenal star Malcolm McDonald in his guise as manager of Fulham.

West Ham stayed in the top flight throughout the 1980s, however the only archive footage of a League fixture at Highbury between the two sides came at the end of the decade. It seems that neither The Big Match, Match of the Day nor ITN saw fit to capture on camera West Ham’s visits to Arsenal during the 1980s, with the exception of Arsenal’s 2-1 victory in February 1989. That victory went some way to avenging West Ham knocking Arsenal out of the FA Cup in a reply at Highbury just a few weeks earlier, with a late goal by Leroy Rosenior. There is a theory however that Arsenal fans owe Leroy Rosenior a huge debt of gratitude, elaborated on here by AISA’s Woolwich Arsenal blog.

In essence, the argument goes that his goal at Highbury which knocked Arsenal out of the FA Cup, enabled George Graham’s young side to fully concentrate on the League, as well as enabling us, and our fans, to avoid that ill-fated Semi Final at Hillsborough that year. At the very end of the season too, on May 23rd 1989 Rosenior contributed another vital goal, this time at Anfield (@11.30). Though West Ham went on to lose 5-1 and were relegated as a result, it meant that Arsenal were required to win at Anfield by two clear goals instead of three, the latter undoubtedly would have been practically impossible to pull off.

Here’s another point about that relegation West Ham suffered in 1989 however, especially those who feel that Arsenal have been too loyal to their incumbent manager in recent years. Before West Ham sacked John Lyall after dropping out of the First Division, they had only ever had five managers throughout the whole of their eighty nine year history, despite only ever winning four trophies in that time. And yet, in the twenty six years which have followed they have appointed twice as many as that figure! In fact, you could say that the very notion of a revolving door managerial policy at Upton Park is as symbolic of the culture change within football since 1989 as anything else which has occurred in the interim.

Part two follows tomorrow


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61
comments

  1. Ozzie

    Aug 09, 2015, 12:49 #73774

    Aye, Ron, the State game has a limited life - they even took away the name and presented it dressed in commercial garb which devalued it further. I don't see many boys in the street nor the park like I used to. It's a phone in one hand and an iPod in the other. Most of the sports are being re fashioned for speed and a quick thrill whilst stamping out the "boring" parts that used to make the game interesting. More and more us oldies watch everything we knew crumble. The easiest way is to just let go and watch the game dispassionately. It is hard to get worked up like one used to - perhaps that is maturing - which leads one to a more balanced outlook and an appreciation of what is worthy of our time? Re earlier Oz teams Do you remember Graham Yallop's team? They called it "Lambs to the slaughter" that was probably the worst team. I do think cockiness added to this current team's downfall - especially after the last series in OZ. I agree the England team isn't much to write home about save Root and a couple of the bowlers. The batting line up is shaky at best and relies heavily on the bowlers efforts. The days of Benaud, Lawry, O' Neill, Boycott, Cowdrey and Graveney were my best memories.

  2. Badarse

    Aug 08, 2015, 20:05 #73758

    Stay out of the phone box maguiresbridge, and pull your trousers up, we want no trunk calls tonight.

  3. maguiresbridge gooner

    Aug 08, 2015, 16:46 #73751

    Arseneknewbest, AKB's think for themselves? don't be daft, their messiah must have spoken or mumbled something as they're out and about again so i guess their arses have healed that takes time as their very delicate but still talking out of them of course, but a phone call to the phone box from their messiah works wonders for their moral.

  4. goonercolesyboy

    Aug 08, 2015, 8:32 #73740

    I think that this is an exciting , young talented England cricket team with a potential superstar in Root. Australia were over hyped and have been found out in our seaming swinging conditions, although Gillespie got it right when he lauded them as Dads Army. He was laughed at for that comment, but he wasn't in the frame for the England coaching role for no reason. They now have a great blend of youth and experience and an excellent coach who lets them express themselves. We just need to find a top class spinner and this would be the complete squad. As for West Ham, I always enjoy going away as it is an old style ground sat within the housing and local shops with that Green Street feeling in the air on match days. They dine out on their 66 contribution and glad those players won the World Cup fro England, but like N14 they have faded and died.

  5. Ron

    Aug 08, 2015, 7:41 #73738

    Morning Ozzie. Staange that you say that i cd have been in Australia. Back at about the time we left NW london there were many families leaving UK. It was cheap to go at that time and families were being encouraged. It was some thing that my Mom wanted and it caused friction in our house as Dad didnt want it. It was a close thing though. Re the cricket - im a fan of Aussie cricket. Im surprised that yr SS game has succumbed to the modern game s slog fest bent. On the test scene this shambles here will prove the catalyst now for cricket Australia to shake the tree im guessing and put it right. Do you think so? The team that came over here after Packer was poor but i think this team may be the worst to visit? I went to Edgbaston and was shocked. England are only an average test team. Never thought i d see an Aussie team throw in the towel. Wins like these last two for England arent wins to be proud of really however much the media are dining out on them. Theyre just total mismatches. Its funny how the TV and radio coverage keep making excuses for the collapses though. Its as if they're embarrassed to admit that the cricket is just so poor by Australia and so they try to cloak it with explanations so to keep the interest up. Its a bit surreal. Back in 2005 it was like a jamboree as the media gloated. Now, its like a bowed head, apologetic muted celebration.

  6. Ozzie

    Aug 08, 2015, 3:15 #73732

    Hi Hiccup! Threw the toss in as bait which you took - got to salvage something from the mess, what? Wheres that famous rain of yours, by the way? Ron reminds me of my age and better times - even our national state comp - the Sheffield Shield has just about died to the modern "game" and TV rights. Back in the 60/70s I'd be at the MCG with mates stripped to the waste tanning up (suffer!) downing the tinnies and pies. Back on WHU - my first and only game was Leyton Orient at home when everyone else were Hammers fans but I just had to be different so I decided to follow my stepfather's team and got to watch the '71 double while working in London. I have since converted the whole family and sundry to the Gunners and wear all the woolies in our short winter period. Regarding that children's home, Ron (Violet Ayres Lodge) I suspect the local council and Govt bodies closed it down in order to hush up the horrors suffered by some of the children. Austrey huh? Just think, you could have been over here playing 'spot the pom' :)

  7. Arseneknewbest

    Aug 07, 2015, 22:59 #73731

    Keep wriggling badarse - every time you try to regurgitate your position, you sound increasingly like a manure-ist. You're about to get sucked up the credibility vacuum you old fraud.

  8. jeff wright

    Aug 07, 2015, 22:15 #73730

    There has certainly been a different approach under Wenger than there was under GG Ron and I share your view that we need more iron and less flash football that wins nothing but minor or fake trophies.It's interesting that the wins against City in the league away and Sunday's shield one v Chelsea were won by non-Wenger methods with himself admitting that the players had taken it upon themselves to play a more defensive pragmatic game. My points about United were regarding the way in which the false image that Sky and others such as New Labour portrayed them . . You are right though that we and others have also committed many of the sins that United have, refusing to play in the Charity Sheild after doing the double in 71 and not holding a traditional parade for the FA Cup win,oddly over United, in 2005 , the season after we went unbeaten because it was not considered worthy of one was arrogant. Wenger's made statements in the past that he wouldn't even bother celebrating the League Cup if he won it because he had more important things to win,again that is arrogance with him celebrating now days winning fake tournaments and of the FA Cup. You couldn't make it up.

  9. Lurker

    Aug 07, 2015, 22:14 #73729

    Does anybody else on here never bother to read beyond the first line of any Badarse post?

  10. Badarse

    Aug 07, 2015, 21:27 #73728

    ArseneKB, this is just too funny for words. You certainly cannot read human nature very well, despite a paper trail of hints to guide you. You have mugged yourself off again chum. I never said 'quote', neither did I use inverted commas. In the previous sentence I intimated that some of Ron's posts are veiled anti-Arsenal. They can be interpreted any way, and I think if there were two ways then you would search to find a third. However I then paraphrased the first of Ron's views, (I do not argue against his views like you would. In fact I would defend anyone for having a view, I would just disagree. So for you to make it easier- Ron said, " Man U are the greatest club and we at AFC know it!" I then said, How odd is that? I asked you about the oddity, OK? I followed up with another question to yourself asking, where were your sensibilities that day, when Ron said that. Your sensibilities, not mine or Ron's, OK? Now I do not have to parade my pedigree before you to convince you one way or the other but I am known within the family and circle of friends for some trademarks. In Dublin my brother-in-law wandered into a book/magazine store in the new shopping centre and later when we met up began chuckling. He said-(now this is my bro-in-law saying this not Ron), I knew Badarse had been in there before me. My wife looked perplexed, (that's my wife not Ron's), he -my brother-explained all the football souvenir books/magazines and sundries had had Arsenal placed uppermost. Every single rack and container had nothing but Arsenal paraphernalia showing. It's what I do! In a sports shop after my visit it has an Arsenal shirt covering every possible line of shirts-the Manure ones are placed backwards hiding the badge. Now stop being so tiresome, I would expect westlower to explain-he knows me well-but even mark who I have never posted to before today knew me well enough to try to explain. Wasted efforts. You insulted the lad, whilst patronising westlower-and as they might say in this genre, 'You are not fit to lace his boots!' (That's westlower's boots, jeff wears sandals.) By the way my poser went unanswered, I have seen the Sours win the cup twice, where does that place me? Disloyal to Manchester Ltd?

  11. Ron

    Aug 07, 2015, 20:22 #73727

    Good post Jeff and carries much towards the view that Man Utd aren't what they seem but be honest, for all we can all sing that hymn it doesn't entirely dent their achievements. I dont like them anymore than you but some things just are. I wished we had a bit of Fergie method emanating from our Coach as much as i wish we had players who can intimidate as we ve been accustomed to until the last decade. A Clubs got to be a bit Machiavellian to reach the top and stay there. that we havent got it has spawned a large majority of certainly my posts about us for a long time and i venture most others of us too. You cant demand that our Club show certain characteristics and then condemn the same things just because another Club has used them already.

  12. Arseneknewbest

    Aug 07, 2015, 18:16 #73724

    Jeff - sorry mate, kudos to you for the Manure piece rather than Ron.

  13. Arsenekenwbest

    Aug 07, 2015, 18:01 #73723

    Mark - you're right mate. I get decidedly moist when I read badarse's excretions. You obviously do as well otherwise you wouldn't be one of his apologists would you? Why can't you akbs think for yourselves sometimes? Ron - thanks. An entertaining read about the littany of manure-related misdemeanours. I have a dimming memory of a particularly egregious bit of fergie time in a game against the hapless sheff wed which I think may have prevented us from going top. And that rooney acting class to break our winning run still makes my fluids boil. Riley was almost as pro-manure as badarsio is.

  14. mark

    Aug 07, 2015, 17:48 #73722

    Surely Badarse meant what Ron said about Man Utd.Who IMHO have never been anywhere near us for class..You really should stop getting so excited Arseneknewbest..

  15. jeff wright

    Aug 07, 2015, 16:50 #73719

    United are generally considered to be the top English club by many including the old so called New Labour Government who had a word in the Glazers shell like ears when they bought the club with hedge fund cash to warn them to handle United carefully - as they are our crown jewels ( football ) . Lord Ferguson campaigned politically for Blair and Brown and was later rewarded with a knighthood for his efforts.Who says that crime doesn't pay. Manchester United FC were accused at one time of exploiting the Munich air crash for financial gain by some of the victims families, there appears to be a good case for those charges .Liverpool supporters don't agree that United have been the greatest club and point to their superior European Cup haul and old First Division titles .The manc clubs domination of the Premier League was always surrounded by controversy because of Lord Ferguson's often violent antics, there was an air of menace and malevolence surrounding the garrulous Glaswegian and his 'Fergie Time' and intimidation of match officials was infamous The damage that Lord Ferguson did to the FA Cup when for commercial reasons he refused to play in it preferring to play instead in a tournament abroad should not be overlooked either. The same FA Cup that had saved his job when he needed to win it after 4 years without a trophy in the beginning of his what then turned out to be a long and successful tenure. Going back to the 'you can win the league by just beating the also rans' claims some thin that only United have managed to do under Lord Ferguson he was helped in doing that by a certain Mike Riley who awarded rather a lot of dodgy penalties in the games in which he was the whistle blower .Old Mother Riley was of course the same cretin who helped Lord Ferguson to bring our unbeaten run to an end when awarding United a dodgy penalty after Rooney had dived for it at OT . A game that lives in infamy in which Riley allowed Horsehead and others to commit GBH on our players for which they would have been nicked by the plod if done in the street. It should be recalled also that West Ham did everyone a favour when they refused to lie down at the Boleyn on the last day of the season to allow United to win another title - this resulted in Blackburn winning it instead. Much to Lord Ferguson's annoyance and that of the glory hunters who follow the Mancs from Brighton to Beijing.

  16. Hiccup

    Aug 07, 2015, 16:18 #73717

    Hi Ozzie. By the time you've woke up this morning the ashes will be back here I reckon. How will it be received over there. Is cricket the main game or is it rugby? I love the way you sneaked in that the winner of the toss decides the game. You've been reading too many AKB posts. That sounded very westified! Clarke did win the toss in the 3rd test and decided to bat. I reckon you've given the AKB's a new excuse next time things go pear shaped!

  17. Arseneknewbest

    Aug 07, 2015, 15:37 #73716

    Westlower- Thanks mate (and nice try). I guess the insinuation is that Ron (and by extension other WOBs) think Manure are the greatest, but the problem here is that Badarse said it himself. He also has previous as a manureophile because we've clashed over it before. So I recommend you keep your counsel on this one (normally I really enjoy reading some of your stuff) - in any case, the great brain himself will be on here shortly saying black = white and that I'm being silly (but using MANY more words than that natch). But as a odds following man, what would you say was the probability that badarse has an I love Roy Keane mug through which he drinks his special hallucinogenic potion? They guy's clearly got an attraction to Manure - why try and cover for him?

  18. Ron

    Aug 07, 2015, 15:32 #73715

    akb - in fairness to Badarse here i think hes paraphrasing a comment that i made the other day on a post that some body said was about Man Utd using the Charity shield to prove their eminence or something. Cant be exact now.Badarse likes to paraphrase me. Hes like a stalker on a crusade. I think he feels inadequate or threatened or some thing bizarre like that. Its quite sad but it seems to make him happy. For the record,my comment was that Utd are the top Club in the UK overall and have had many teams that may have been the best in Europe at different times. Its just my view and as a kid i used to like to see them and Georgie etc. Badarse seems to be affronted by any honest views that he cant empathize with. Badarse - the word 'daft' offends you then? Again for the record, the view in that post was daft as it was derived from yr prejudice against West Ham seemingly. You seem to have many prejudices. Are you really that delicate? Yr spite that you consistently show suggests otherwise and yr far from respectful to other posters on here. You seems to live in a cocoon all of yr own if you really do believe what you write and there's no point hiding behind yr old ' ive never mastered this medium' ruse. Your old 'im offended' act needs some new tyres too. Youve been round the track with that one so often you must be giddy to the point of utter disorientation.Yr fooling nobody.

  19. Westlower

    Aug 07, 2015, 14:38 #73713

    @Arseneknewbest, Reread post 77838 and see if you arrive at a different conclusion?

  20. Arseneknewbest

    Aug 07, 2015, 14:33 #73712

    Badarsio - You said, Quote Man U are the greatest and we at AFC know it Unquote. Speak for yourself mate. So you're no longer a crypto Red Devil but are now fully out of your closet. How embarrassing. It's one thing having respect for other fans/clubs, but your hagiography of that club, more than any others, is a terminal blow to your crumbling credibility. To paraphrase your AKB mates (who must have read your last message and will be vomiting over their tea), why don't you eff orf over to the theatre of screams if you love them so much? Manure the greatest? My (bad) arse!

  21. Badarse

    Aug 07, 2015, 14:06 #73711

    Ron, you reffered to my POV as daft, not nice fella. As I keep insisting, by just saying something it doesn't make it so, will you never grasp that? You posted a follow up in a contrite fashion which I never saw before my post. I was about to post saying you'd made me feel guilty, (though you did cast the first stone, mine is always a reaction), you do not need to personalise things so much. This medium is an odd thing and one I shall never get quite used to, however it is as it is and people should respect, no more, no less. In real life I am happy to 'rag' and tease friends and family, in written words you need to be a little more circumspect, that's all. I am happy that you see things differently to me on some issues, many are parallel thoughts, but I am respectful. Don't fret buddy, in a pub it would just be joshing and joking, oh and you'd get the round in after ArseneKB.

  22. Ron

    Aug 07, 2015, 13:59 #73710

    You really ought to give it up or grow up Badarse, though the latter's maybe a lost cause. Yes, i respect, have watched and do still do enjoy watching other teams when i can. Another vacuous, narcissistic, blast of rear exit wind from you. Same old though, so yr at least consistent. Good grief.

  23. Ron

    Aug 07, 2015, 13:48 #73709

    Sorry Westie lad, i was responding to yr post. Yes, for me it s been a big regret that the team of the late 70s and early 80s never won a title. We had great players then didnt we. TN really did under perform with them. To be honest Westie, footie s never been the same since for me as a fan despite GGs and AW halcyon yrs. Those yrs and players you mention were special. We were lucky. Todays young gunners fans wont understand of course. Its a good job they dont.

  24. Badarse

    Aug 07, 2015, 13:46 #73708

    I have to confess ArseneKB that I struggle to stay with your confusing posts; I would guess you just have difficulty with conflating points to make sense of another's position, then go off half-cocked with an agenda as a motivational purpose. I don't understand the accusation you make, beyond a childish need to be mischievous. Were I to be a supporter of another club would it make my observations of a third club invalid? You argue against yourself my friend. The amusing thing is your leader, Ron, who veils digs with a counter view-he shows no respect and should-'bigs' up many other clubs at Arsenal's expense or in a 'counter comparison' mode. Man U are the greatest, and we at AFC know it. How odd is that? Where were your sensibilities that day? Everton and Martinez were the big club on the way back who knew how to do all things correctly. Really? He settled on Leicester as the iconic midlands club who knew how to do it right, (perhaps Lineker is a big pull for him?)-then players sacked for racism, then manager booted out. Aston Villa were another he promoted and would win the cup! All wishy washy-and I know my pantomimes, I've posted here long enough. Mourhino gets a big hand, Ferguson too. They are, with all that just POVs. Why should I worry about someone having a different view to me. The views are often naff, but so what? Incidentally it's red wine, a nice bitter, (preferably Fuller's for romantic reasons), or Guinness-your round I believe? Oh I saw the Sours win the cup in '62 and '67 too, thought I'd just supply you with a little extra material.

  25. mark

    Aug 07, 2015, 13:40 #73707

    I wish it was still like that now with the fans being patient and allowing the young players to shine instead of all this spend spend spend nonsense.Too much praising up other teams and slagging off the youngsters for my liking..

  26. Ron

    Aug 07, 2015, 13:36 #73706

    True Baddie - Old Billy W never got anything his way but barbs did he, yet he laid the foundation stones for 71 etc as you say.Created all those fine players and gave us the steel to complement it too. Greenwood forgot that essential ingredient didnt he and Lyall never quite went far enough. I certainly agree with you re yr point the TV and its effects. The game's lost so much of what was good hasnt it. PS I said 70s in my post re Hammers team earlier. I meant the team that they had in the early 80s. Parkes, Devonshire Brooking and Co.

  27. Arseneknewbest

    Aug 07, 2015, 13:05 #73704

    Badarse - you're just a little bitty contrary aren't you. I say p*ss, you say sh*t - that kind of thing. You've already confessed your love of Manure in the 60s on here so you do have the capacity to admire another team. Maybe you're still a cockney red at heart? Any more of your anti WHU rhetoric and you'll lose of one of your key allies in Coleslaw.

  28. Westlower

    Aug 07, 2015, 13:01 #73703

    @Ron West Ham supporters were always proud of 'The Academy'. When at the height of their powers they invariably gave us a footballing lesson. I remember in 1972 they played us off the park at Highbury but somehow we managed to beat them 2-1, courtesy of two goals from Alan Ball. I felt we robbed them on that occasion. Of course it was a different world back then, no foreign imports & the fans loved to see the youngsters being blooded. It was a greater satisfaction seeing one of the academy players make it into the first team than watching a big time Charlie trying to justify a large transfer fee. Those days have been laid to rest by the TV companies craving for instant drama. No time to wait for a team of youngsters to mature into a formidable outfit. We were lucky having lived through the halcyon days of 'project youth' in the late 60's, 70's & 80's. Billy Wright & Bertie Mee's boys, Sammels, Armstrong, Radford, Kennedy, Kelly, Rice, Wilson, Storey, Simpson, George, Nelson, etc was the golden age for AFC, followed by the Irish kids of O'Leary, Brady, Stapleton.

  29. maguiresbridge gooner

    Aug 07, 2015, 12:52 #73702

    With all this West Ham admiring it's only a matter of time till we're accused of being hammers by certain wengerites and told to fook off to Upton park or where ever as we know as far as they are concerned there's only one messiah to be admired and worshiped.

  30. Ron

    Aug 07, 2015, 12:43 #73701

    Mark - West Hams reputation for stylish football was based on Ron Greenwoods philosophy of bringing through young players who played with style and panache. It wasn't based on the 'team' so much, nor their achievements. It was the Club culture and one they should be and are rightly proud of and its lived on. Whether theyve been best served by trying to fulfil it is arguable and of course Sam Allaradyce did argue it much to the irons fans chagrin. Greenwood was followed by such as John Lyall who kept the tradition but made them a little sterner. Whats indisputable is that many, many fine footballers flowed from the production line, going right back to when such as Cantwell and Malcolm Allison played there in the late 50s. Their best days were the mid 60s of course but theyre a small club. They had a side in the very early 70s which was very impressive under Lyall when in the 2nd Div and got promoted which was a credit to them though. Of course we know all a lot that team! Its easy to cast aside West Hams heritage on the flimsy basis that they 'did nothing to impress'. The actual fact is that they did and for a Club of that size it was highly creditable. Wengers own project youth could be said to have been an effort to emulate what Greenwood did, yet how many home based players did we produce and of those that we did, the one shining light has only been Ashley Cole. Greenwood was a truly foresighted man and a genuine developer of young players into refined and skilled players. as e know 3 of them were lynchpins of the only truly good side England have ever really had. The team ethic never quite hit the spot as they did have a soft underbelly, much like we have had for too many years. PS Tottenham have played some fine footie in their time too. They have good ingrained traditions of the way the game should be played. There are those types who deny it but thats just daft.

  31. Badarse

    Aug 07, 2015, 11:47 #73700

    @mark, when the clamour of WHU's stylish and attacking 'flair play' was at it's zenith, (perhaps late 60s early 70s they did nothing to impress in what I saw. Whilst results aren't everything and can certainly cloud the issue from '68-72, (5 seasons), there were four 0-0 draws in our ten league encounters, they failed to score in one other match, and only managed to score five goals in the other five games. It left me with a different perspective.

  32. Ron

    Aug 07, 2015, 11:16 #73699

    Morning Ozzie - not specifically no. Can recall a Barnados place ( i think) that was in Palmerstone Road area? I was about 10 when i left there though. Quite a lot of it is smartly developed now. My London days ended for good in 1983 though. Oddly enough, my first move of many moves later!! I went to live at a place called Austrey in Leicestershire from there. I thought my Dad was taking us to Australia! Re Cricket - i think the plague of 20/20 has finally asserted its grip now. Tests days are numbered in the present guise i think. No batsmen can innings build now can they. Every ball is thought of as a scoring ball. We done want the days of Geoff Boycott and Bill Lawry scratching about for 2 days for 50 runs again, but rampant commercialism owns cricket now doesn't it, same as football. Quick runs and slog fest mentality rules. Hiccups point is a a good one. Broads nothing special. He just bowled a decent length at the wickets. There soon wont be enough test playing nations to justify its continuance i fear.Needs rescuing!

  33. mark

    Aug 07, 2015, 9:55 #73698

    I think you hit the nail on the head Badarse I've never liked them.Wham like the spuds back in yonder days were always given all this good media coverage,which gullible fans lapped up..They loved fighting with Arsenal,remember them all coming over to Luton in 1984 to have a row with us because their game was called off..

  34. Arseneknewbest

    Aug 07, 2015, 9:11 #73697

    Bard - If I were you, I'd give the others an undeserved break in front of a video of the 8-2 game at OT (use the ludovico technique like they did on poor alex in the clockwork orange), and spend the entire day with badarsio working on his appalling levels of self-awareness. Don't let him have any roly-poly at midday unless he promises to eradicate the scatological drivel that passes for his composition. And don't hesitate to keep him in detention, nor take his lap-top off him if he steps out of line. Good luck!

  35. Westlower

    Aug 07, 2015, 8:46 #73695

    Forever blowing bubbles. Claret & Blue Ducks farting under water? Chim chimney chim chim charoo! Spectacular photo of the dark side of the moon in today's papers. So bland, So drab, so grey, so boring, so lacking in life. Sadly, I know of a few dark moanies who live there......

  36. Bard

    Aug 07, 2015, 8:29 #73694

    MG the thought of being suffocated with a pair of Wenger's Y fronts is enough to push a man over to the dark side. I would write more but I have several dozen AKBS outside waiting for me to start the class. Todays discussion is titled 'Try thinking for yourself'. I can see one or two frothing at the mouth at the complexity of the subject matter.

  37. Ozzie

    Aug 07, 2015, 8:13 #73693

    I hear you Hiccup! Congratulations to Broady but cant help wondering if the game has been decided by the toss of the coin, though that is not to take anything away from the superb team effort by the poms. I, too, have a soft spot for the Hammers and have often wondered how they might have fared had they not sold a crop of top players in recent years. Another club that has surrendered possible success to stay afloat. Ron, on the mention of your roots, would you have remembered a children's home at 8 Epping New Road, Buckhurst Hill? I believe it was demolished in the 80s to make way for a posh gated estate? Interesting read, Robert, the 'racist' issue had me thinking especially as my wife loves all those old shows such as Love thy neighbour, etc. If the footy gets boring here we turn to the crowd and play a game called: "Spot the Aussie"

  38. Mikeymike

    Aug 07, 2015, 7:50 #73692

    Interesting read. I didn't know about the Greenwood connection & prefer recognising Leroy's contribution to Liverpool's goal difference than him knocking us out of the cup, a game which I was at. Talking about games I was at, a mid 90's match at Highbury against the Hammers on a Sunday after a CWC match, was the worse game of football I ever saw at Highbury. We lost 1-0. Terrible, simply terrible.

  39. Badarse

    Aug 07, 2015, 7:32 #73691

    Thank you Robert, so interesting! Morning peeps. jj, you have it in one. I don't get upset. I do get disappointed often, despite my awareness that it will happen continuously. Oh and Ripper Street is filmed in Eire-cheap, and un-unionised labour, (talk to ArseneKB about it). Working yesterday and despite the strike managed to make Waltham Cross, upset quite a few others too. WHU? Well we are all victims of media hype and I had a soft spot for them when I wore a younger man's clothes, that flavour quickly became tasteless though. Saw them lift the '64 Cup, (my new girlfriend), and Moore lift the World Cup in '66-a sunny day like today. Wear factor 50 gents, and cover the kids-cover, not smother maguiresbridge. What was that all about, a new Ronaldo gnome in a Sours outfit, I saw you with? Bard, liked your post, you are raising your game. John F, your posts too buddy.

  40. Smithy

    Aug 07, 2015, 7:28 #73690

    Left field idea - an unsettled Jedinak from palace as cover for young Francis in our DM position?certainly a no nonsense Aussie who is excellent in the air and wouldn't be that expensive ?

  41. Ron

    Aug 07, 2015, 5:03 #73689

    Hi Lads. I like the Hammers too My own London roots remain in Leytonstone, Woodford/Buckhurst Hill area though it seems centuries ago now, so they have a nice place in my heart. Sister is a big Hammers fan still in the area. Theyre a smashing Club and despite the silly ICF memories have great fans by and large. In my view the Hammers are now the only London Club that exudes and genuine real passion from its ranks and its been that way for many years. The London football scene in comparison to its contemporaries in the Central and NW is pretty tepid in all honesty.

  42. maguiresbridge gooner

    Aug 06, 2015, 22:30 #73688

    jj, careful, wenger luvies are bad enough, but you'll end up being accused of racism from the PC luvies, i wonder how Chinese girls like been called dearies.

  43. jeff wright

    Aug 06, 2015, 22:22 #73687

    i know that you are forever blowing bubbles....

  44. maguiresbridge gooner

    Aug 06, 2015, 21:57 #73686

    Bard, you haven't mentioned TOF for sure, but you haven't mentioned or referred to the article either, just replied to another poster (and it's not hard to know who)so you should be hung drawn and quartered for that, or made to run 10k, or maybe suffocated with a pair of wengers Y fronts would suffice.

  45. jjetplane

    Aug 06, 2015, 21:47 #73685

    Knees up Mother Brown. Love our Mums. Always blowing bubbles. Ripper street. A..... W..... Onwards and upwards with clumping Ashcroft. Woz you there Ashee when they done Stroud Green Tesco? Looking forward to seeing 100s of Chinese girls singing 'I'm forever blowing bubbles' at the Stratford Wok. Once Spuds and Chelski build theirs you won't know one from thr other. Brand EPL.

  46. jeff wright

    Aug 06, 2015, 21:22 #73684

    Doyounotknow, seeing as you are not posting about the topic yourself perhaps you should take your own advice. The hammers also known as the irons claret and blue shirts... inter city firm ... Bobby Moore ... any views ...?

  47. Hiccup

    Aug 06, 2015, 20:42 #73683

    Where is Ozzie!! England to declare overnight and skittle them out again. Over and done with by lunch on day 2! RIP Test Match cricket.

  48. Bard

    Aug 06, 2015, 20:00 #73682

    Do you know etc dont hide behind a ridiculous moniker to make your point. it shows a distinct lack of cojones. Man up. I agree with you they should be barred from ever commenting on anything ever again. Furthermore I suggest they are ordered to attend one of my classes. Currently I am running a very well attended and informative class called 'How to write a post'. Baddie kindly agreed to give the opening lecture. It was a marathon as you can imagine. He was like the late Jerry Garcia of the Grateful Dead, it was a solo that went on forever. Three rather nice but dim AKBs tried to throw themselves out of the window in protest. I rest my case. I hope you noticed that I havent once mentioned ******.

  49. maguiresbridge gooner

    Aug 06, 2015, 19:28 #73681

    SKG, good post i agree ref smoking jack but i wonder who's to blame for that? or going to get the blame? as far as i can remember there was no unknown Dan who ruined his career but i'm sure a tackle or a bad decision by the ref in the last nine or ten years can be pulled out of somewhere by the wenger loyalists.

  50. Seven Kings Gooner

    Aug 06, 2015, 18:14 #73680

    Good article Robert - as a Seven Kings Boy most in my school supported West Ham. They had a very good side in the sixties and had a good record against Arsenal, until we did them 0-4 in 63 - 64 season? As for JW I feel a bit sorry for him because I think he has played too much first team football at too young an age. Years back young players were played mainly at home and against the less robust teams, I think "Project youth" has done for quite a few promising young players at Arsenal. Jack has a running style with the ball that tends to see him overstretching too much and when you are tackled when you are reaching for the ball it can cause injuries. I was always taught to get your body over the ball when tackling so that you can put some weight into your challenge. Jack needs to change his style of play or I fear he will end up as others have suggested as our new Diaby. Shame because I think he is talented player.

  51. John F

    Aug 06, 2015, 16:41 #73679

    They will be the team to watch in a couple of years with their very favourable deal they got with the Olympic stadium.They could be a very attractive club for a takeover making their owners a mint,all on the back of pubic money spent on the redevelopment of the stadium. It used to be a horrible atmosphere playing West Ham in the eighties especially outside and at tube stations.They even waited for our train to come in after an Ipswich away game to have a go.After the smoke bomb match I felt it all calmed down at Highbury, I think they were surprised at the Arsenals fans response that day.

  52. maguiresbridge gooner

    Aug 06, 2015, 16:34 #73678

    CT Gooner, can't disagree all typed up and ready to go.

  53. CT Gooner

    Aug 06, 2015, 16:20 #73677

    Can't disagree TE, but there are too many fans ready with excuses.

  54. Tony Evans

    Aug 06, 2015, 15:37 #73676

    Maguiresbridge - keeping perma-crocks on the payroll is undoubtedly one of Wenger's biggest faults; up there with 'not wanting to destroy a players career' - with the latest beneficiary being Coquelin. Now I am not saying Coq is not worthy but what's wrong with some proper competition for your place in the first team, and as a result we are one injury away from Arteta as the holding midfielder! I am more optimistic at the moment than I have been for a while, but realistically we are still one or two quality players short and with money in the bank that is criminal and because of this we will more than likely come up short again.

  55. maguiresbridge gooner

    Aug 06, 2015, 15:14 #73675

    Tony Evans, if OGL was to stay another five years you'd certainly expect smoking jack to be here too, making him his latest charity now diaby's gone but god forbid he'll still be around in five years, and the new man will do what's necessary if need be, but even so, just like diaby there'll be some feeling sorry for him and wanting him to be kept on on massive wages for years anyway, making him richer in the hope one day he'll come good and be our saviour.

  56. A Cornish Gooner

    Aug 06, 2015, 14:17 #73672

    Dame Peggy. No mention of dung-vomitting tiddly totts. Well done Jim/James/Jamie/Jamerson.

  57. Tony Evans

    Aug 06, 2015, 13:49 #73669

    Jeff - fair point, he needs at least one injury free season to attract any serious offers and that doesn't look likely any time soon.

  58. jeff wright

    Aug 06, 2015, 12:53 #73666

    TE it would be a problem finding a buyer for Jack with his well known fragile ankles .Not a good thing that for a combative midfield player it's like a boxer with a glass-jaw always an accident waiting to happen. Wenger's clais that Jack would be fit in a few days are deja vu the ones he made before when Jack was injured pre-season in the Emirates Cup malarkey - in fact it was 18 months before he returned for a short time then he was out injured again... a nd as you say it looks like the Diaby scenario al over again...

  59. Tony Evans

    Aug 06, 2015, 12:27 #73664

    Is Wilshire set to become our new Diaby because it certainly appears that way! The season kicks of this weekend and he is already out for up to 8 weeks - make that more like 3 months I expect! A good player but you have to wonder, with his injury record, whether keeping him is good business. I would gladly swap him for a top quality DM any day of the week.

  60. Tony Evans

    Aug 06, 2015, 12:16 #73663

    Thanks Robert - really interesting stuff. I tend to agree with ArseneKnewbest in that I have no problem with Westham and generally wish them well. My bitter memories from being at Wembley in 1980 only to see them beat us are long since forgotten now.

  61. Arseneknewbest

    Aug 06, 2015, 10:39 #73661

    Thanks Robert - A great read. It'll possibly make me an outcast on here but I have a lot of respect for the Hammers. I wish them well this season because it's vital that they stay up. When our players get transferred there, you tend to wish to well, and I think it's currently doing Jenko a lot of good. I also like the academy idea, which is fair enough considering some of the youngsters they've bought through the ranks. So, from Sunday evening onwards, I hope they have a good season...