#ThrowbackThursday - Man United away

Part one of a look back at the history Arsenal’s trips to Old Trafford



#ThrowbackThursday - Man United away


Many of Arsene Wenger’s critics over the years have often used his record at Old Trafford as a stick to beat him with, however it’s worth wondering just how many of these critics are actually aware of Arsenal’s historical record when it comes to playing Man United away. From my calculation, in 121 years’ worth of visits to Manchester United, Arsenal have only ever won eighteen times against them away from home and interestingly, with five victories over United at Old Trafford Arsene Wenger – easily Arsenal’s most successful ever manager when it comes to visiting the ground - is responsible for just under a third of them, despite also incurring some of the heaviest ever defeats there. Even taking Wenger’s longevity in the role into account, it’s interesting to note how none of Arsenal’s other managers have ever really fared particularly well up there.

Major managerial figures such as Bertie Mee, Don Howe and George Graham all have an Old Trafford record on a par with minor managerial figures in Arsenal’s history such as Harry Bradshaw, Phil Kelso, George Morrell, Leslie Knighton, George Swindin and Billy Wright, in only ever having won there just the once, while Herbert Chapman and Terry Neill have the joint second best record having both won there twice. Highbury greats such as George Allison and Tom Whittaker in contrast however never once picked up a win at Old Trafford, despite the fact that for most of that period Arsenal had a much better side than United.

Arsenal’s first visit away visit to Man United came in October 1894 in the old Second Division, when Arsenal were known as Woolwich Arsenal and United then known as Newton Heath. It would also be the first meeting between the two sides and took place at Newton Heath’s then home ground - Bank Street - in front of just 4,000 fans. During the closing years of the eighteenth century however, Bank Street would not be a happy hunting ground for the Gunners with Newton Heath inflicting a 1-5 defeat on Arsenal for two seasons out of three. The last time Arsenal played them under the name of Newton Heath, Arsenal inflicted their first away defeat against them in March 1902 with a 1-0 win. A month later however, Newton Heath had changed their name to Manchester United.

Manchester United won their first ever League title under the management of Ernest Mangnall in 1907/08, Arsenal’s away trip to United that season took place in November with United inflicting a 2-4 defeat on the Gunners with United’s Sandy Turnbull scoring all four goals. The following year Arsenal managed a thumping 4-1 away win over United at Bank Street, however the following October was the Gunners last visit to Bank Street, where United inflicted a 0-1 defeat on Arsenal. Man United moved to Old Trafford in February 1910 and on Arsenal’s first visit they were thumped 0-5 on Boxing Day of that year. United won their second title at the end of their first full season at Old Trafford in 1910/11. Then as now however, there would follow a decline resulting from the departure of a successful title winning manager as Mangnall left Old Trafford.

Such was their decline that by the end of the 1914/15 season Man United were languishing around the relegation zone. On Good Friday 1915, United stood third from bottom – one point from Chelsea at the foot of the table and above Notts County on goal average, while Tottenham Hotspur were just one point above them. That day they met thirteenth place Liverpool at Old Trafford. What occurred was that players from both sides conspired to fix the game as a 2-0 win for Man United. The Liverpool Daily Post said of the game that: ‘A more one-sided first half would be hard to witness’. That victory was enough for United to avoid relegation, finishing third from bottom with Tottenham two points behind at the foot of the table and Chelsea second from bottom one point behind.

The plot however was uncovered, but the clubs themselves were not punished and the result stood as it was adjudged that the players had hatched the conspiracy themselves. Three players from Man United and four from Liverpool were banned for life for their involvement in the matter, which included Man United’s star player Sandy Turnbull, who scored 90 goals in a career spanning 220 games with United. The rest of Sandy Turnball’s life though turned out to be quite short in duration as he was killed in the Battle of Arras during the First World War in 1917, aged just thirty two. Arsenal’s first visit to Old Trafford after the First World War came in February 1920, which resulted in a 1-0 win for the Gunners. Arsenal’s next victory there would be Herbert Chapman’s first visit in September 1925, when the Gunners took both points with a 1-0 win resulting from a goal by Jimmy Brain.

Arsenal’s first League title season in 1930/31 saw a 2-1 win at Old Trafford in October, with goals from Jack Lambert and Joey Williams. As Arsenal finished the season on top, Man United finished rock bottom and were relegated to the second tier and were to spend five of the next six seasons in the old Second Division. Despite this, Arsenal still lost the last two away fixtures before the Second World – United inflicted a 0-2 defeat on Arsenal in October 1936 and 0-1 defeat in December 1938. Man United’s first home game against Arsenal after the war was also the first of the Matt Busby era, which came in September 1946 with United inflicting a 2-5 defeat on Arsenal. The fixture was played at Maine Road due to bomb damage which occurred to Old Trafford during the war.

Arsenal’s next away trip to United would be the highest ever attendance for a League match, with 83,260 turning up to Maine Road to watch a 1-1 draw with Jack Rowley on target for Man United while Reg Lewis scored for the Gunners. The final time that Arsenal travelled to Maine Road to play Man United came on New Years’ Day 1949, a game in which United inflicted a 0-2 defeat on the Gunners. Despite playing their home games ‘away’ for the first three seasons after the war, Man United were runners up in the League three times in a row. United returned to Old Trafford and Arsenal’s first visit back there since the Second World War came on Boxing Day later that year. Again, the Gunners suffered another 0-2 defeat.

In the close season of 1949/50, Man United undertook a nine day tour of the USA, during which their star forward Charlie Mitten had been poached by Independiente Santa Fe of Columbia’s ‘El Dorado’ League which for a brief period broke away from FIFA and poached much of the World’s best talent. Mitten’s flouting of the ‘retain and transfer’ system to Matt Busby’s annoyance led to him acquiring the moniker of the ‘Bogota Bandit’. Arsenal’s next visit to Old Trafford came as Cup holders, visiting Old Trafford in the fifth round of the FA Cup in 1951, United however again inflicted another defeat, with Arsenal losing 0-1.

In 1951/52, Arsenal visited Old Trafford on the final game of the season. Five days earlier, Arsenal blew the chance to draw level on points with United at the top of the table by losing 1-3 to West Brom away at the Hawthorns. This meant that an injury hit Arsenal required a seven goal win in order to overhaul United, however a hat-trick for Jack Rowley inflicted a 1-6 defeat on the Gunners, giving United their first title in over forty years. The title would be Arsenal’s the following year, on route Arsenal secured a point against the reigning Champions at Old Trafford in early September with a 0-0 draw. United were to win the title back to back in 1955/56 and 1956/57 and on route to the latter thumped Arsenal 2-6 at Old Trafford one year prior to the fateful Munich air crash. Three of United’s goal scorers would perish in that flight - among the goal scorers that day were Duncan Edwards and Tommy Taylor, as well as Johnny Berry and Liam Whelan who bagged two each, while David Herd bagged two for Arsenal.

Arsenal’s last visit to Old Trafford prior to the Munich air crash would come in September 1957. Here all three of their goal scorers would be fatalities at Munich, as goals from Tommy Taylor, David Pegg and two for Liam Whelan meant a 2-4 defeat for the Gunners. David Herd would again be on target for the Gunners, as was Mike Tiddy. Arsenal’s first visit to Old Trafford post-Munich came in October 1958, which resulted in a 1-1 draw with Gerry Ward on target for the Gunners and Dennis Viollet scoring for United. Man Utd suffered a Post-Munich decline in the seasons which followed, however still managed to eliminate Arsenal from the FA Cup in the fourth round in a 0-1 defeat at Old Trafford in January 1962 with Maurice Setters scoring for United.

Three months later however, Arsenal finally secured their first win at Old Trafford since 1930 with a 3-2 win in in the League. George Eastham and Alan Skirton were on target for the Gunners, with the third an own goal. Thirteen months on saw a repeat of the same score line, as Man United were battling relegation as well as looking to an upcoming FA Cup Final. Two Denis Law goals were not enough to prevent a 3-2 victory for the Gunners, with goals from Joe Baker, Alan Skirton and Geoff Strong. Man United’s league form turned around the following season, finishing runners up four points behind Liverpool. By 1964/65, United were knocked out of the FA Cup with a 0-1 defeat to Leeds in the Semi Final replay at the City Ground (with the ref knocked out by a fan during a post-match pitch invasion).

A month later however they were challenging Leeds again for their first Post-Munich title going, into the final Saturday of the season one point behind Leeds United at the top with Chelsea just one point behind them. Chelsea were eliminated from the race as a result of losing 6-2 away at Burnley with seven first teamers dropped for breaking a curfew, while Leeds United won 3-0 away at Sheffield United. Man United’s game with reigning champions and FA Cup Finalists Liverpool was captured by Match of the Day, which resulted in a 3-0 win for United. There were however two fixtures still to fit in within three days and forty eight hours on Arsenal visited Old Trafford.

A wonder goal for George Best and two for Denis Law gave United a 3-1 win, (their seventh victory in a row in the League) while George Eastham was on target for the Gunners. Leeds meanwhile travelled to bottom of the table Birmingham table, who few thought could pull off a result, though actually went 3-0 up by half-time, though Leeds pulled it back to 3-3. The two sides were level on points, though Man United – who played away at Aston Villa a further forty eight hours later – would have to have lost by nineteen goals in their final game in order for Leeds to win the title. This news was enough to lead to a mammoth pitch invasion by the Old Trafford crowd in celebration. In their final game of the season, Man United lost 1-2 but still took the title.

United’s defence of the title in 1965/66 saw inconsistent form as they were beaten 1-5 away at Spurs on Match of the Day in August, only to win by the same score line at Old Trafford in the corresponding fixture at Old Trafford later on in the season. Arsenal’s visit Old Trafford in March 1966 would also be captured on Match of the Day, ten days after George Best’s heroics away at Benfica. Best earned the moniker of ‘El Beatle’ as a result, though briefly appeared once on Top of the Pops during a performance from the Rolling Stones (the show was actually filmed in a disused Church in Dickenson Road for three years between its start in 1964 to 1967 – this one of the few pieces of footage from that era not to be wiped altogether!).

United that day inflicted a 1-2 defeat on the Gunners with goals for Denis Law and Nobby Stiles, while Tom Walley would be on target for the Gunners. The Gunners visit in October 1967 would also feature on Match of the Day, a John Aston goal inflicting a 0-1 defeat and a fifth straight victory over Arsenal at Old Trafford. Man United won their first European Cup in May 1968 and Arsenal’s first visit to Old Trafford after this saw the Gunners take their first point away from Old Trafford for five and a half years from a 0-0 draw in October 1968. It’s fair to say that United declined significantly in the years which followed the 1968 European Cup win, finishing as low as eleventh in the League in 1968/69.

The Busby era also came to an end after twenty four years, with Wilf McGuiness taking over the following season. United were languishing as low as tenth position in the table by the close of the decade, however a 4-1 away win over Liverpool at Anfield showed that they were capable of pulling off a great result. Ahead of Arsenal’s visit to Old Trafford in January 1970, Arsenal were hoping to create their own version of George Best in spending £100,000 in bringing a Scot of Italian descent - Peter Marinello - in from Hibernian. Such were the hopes of Marinello emulating George Best’s fame that in early 1970 he managed a guest appearance on Top of the Pops judging a dancing competition.

His debut came away at Man United in January 1970, putting Arsenal one up with a terrific solo goal in front of the Stretford End. It was from around this period that Arsenal started to put together an undefeated run of games against United at Highbury that lasted for around fifteen years, with such formidability that between 1970 and 1979 Arsenal would never score less than three against United. Arsenal however would still struggle to beat United at Old Trafford and here were to suffer a 1-2 defeat with goals from Willie Morgan and United’s own upcoming star of Italian descent - Carlo Sartori – who had been born in Italy, though raised in Manchester.

Carlo left United in 1973 for Bologna and spent most of the next decade playing for lesser Italian sides such as Rimini and Trentino, before retiring in 1984 and returning to Manchester to run his father’s Knife-Sharpening business. Man United finished 1969/70 in eighth position, however qualified for England’s first football tournament to be sponsored – the Watney Cup. The basis for qualification had been open to the two highest scoring teams in each division, who failed to be either promoted or qualify for Europe. What also made it unique was that the offside rule was only applicable in the area. It also was through this competition that Man United became the first side to compete in a penalty shootout to decide a tie, in their Semi Final clash with Terry Neill’s Hull City.

The honour of the first kick taken in a shoot-out fell to George Best, while the infamy of missing the first spot kick fell to his fellow Holy Trinity member, Denis Law. United won the shootout to face Brian Clough’s Derby County in the final, but would suffer a 4-1 hammering at the Baseball Ground. A week before Christmas, Arsenal achieved their first victory at Old Trafford in eight years. In a shock and awe performance, Arsenal went in 3-0 up at half time with goals from Frank McLintock, George Graham and Ray Kennedy. Carlo Sartori pulled one back in the second half, but it wasn’t enough to stop a 3-1 win for the Gunners.


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68
comments

  1. mbg

    Feb 27, 2016, 18:56 #84586

    Exeter, good retort as usual, a bit of both i'd say, you can let him out of your pocket now you've slapped his arse enough.

  2. mbg

    Feb 27, 2016, 18:43 #84585

    My God i'm being stalked now, at least pa pa Walton's leaving Ron alone, three mentions in the one ramble, thank heavens I just had to count them and not read that gobbledegook.

  3. Badarse

    Feb 26, 2016, 16:33 #84548

    Touche!

  4. Exeter Gunner

    Feb 26, 2016, 14:04 #84542

    Either you genuinely don't get it, Badarse, or you wilfully misinterpret because your pride won't let you concede a point. All the stuff about 'glitches' and 'obsessions' is just you trying to 'shame' me into stopping, so you have the last word and feel that you've 'won'. It's as low as it gets really, using the subject of mental health for cheap point scoring. You try and throw in a little guilt trip towards the end as well. It's very transparent stuff. I won't waste any more time repeating myself, what I've already said can stand as it is.

  5. jjetplane

    Feb 26, 2016, 13:52 #84541

    And all this because RON is a popular figure on here .... Stop laughing now! Obsessive indeed ....

  6. Badarse

    Feb 26, 2016, 12:47 #84538

    Tedium, no sugar in my cup please. Exeter, I missed no central point-there were no other real points, just the one, so it could be a left, right or central point I guess. Let's rewind, because this is how you get tangled up. You posted in a quite confrontational manner that I...blah, blah, blah, didn't offer a view/rebuttal etc. You were a bit personal, weren't you? I responded quite reasonably by saying I didn't know what you wanted me to respond to, or rebut. That is a fairly sensible exchange, isn't it? You responded by a critical post of me, and my posting. Why? I did reply by saying that you hadn't followed the line of communication once more-do you ever? All very odd, but it pleased AKBest and mbg, so that may be a point scored in your book. For a reminder, 1. You criticise and say no rebuttal on my part. 2. I respond politely saying rebuttal to what-please explain? But this is my position on AW. 3. You do not explain but give another critical post on me and my posting. 4. AKBest and mbg run in with the back-slapping. 5. I say that they don't surprise me with their actions; then give a detailed synopsis of what I think is pertinent, and the word 'vacuous' was used explaining that you were dodging, or overlooking the central point of the original exchange-you hadn't answered me. 6. You then post again criticising me/my posts and excusing any flaws in yourself or your posts. How odd! I know you want a piece of me, that part is clearly obvious, an obsession even. I have tried so hard to communicate with you, and not for the first time, and yet it is an abject failure once more. That part is quite disappointing, and a little sad. Still we did engage, you managed to unload a huge amount of angst, and it made AKBest and mbg run around tail-wagging. Of course you also got a reward point but it can be doubled if you go to the lady behind the counter. I have to go away for a short while, so just allow me to throw my rubber duck out of the pram first-whoops, it's bounced straight back in!

  7. Mark from Aylesbury

    Feb 26, 2016, 12:41 #84535

    Well well Colesey, Henry IVth I believe? More of this please

  8. mbg

    Feb 26, 2016, 12:23 #84531

    CORNISH, and no doubt he'll make another nice few bob on the demise of his messiah, (he wouldn't be the first so much for their support of him) I just hope he has kept plenty of notes over the years and has a good memory.

  9. CORNISH GOONER

    Feb 26, 2016, 11:44 #84526

    Hi Mark from A - totally in accord with your views on Myles Palmer & he did write that Webster "love in" book way back (Le Prof) which must have netted a few bob. An optimistic book which makes the 2016 state of affairs so sad. Badbum - Oh for goodness sake!!

  10. goonercolesyboy

    Feb 26, 2016, 11:36 #84524

    Is not your voice broken, your wind short, your chin double, your wit single, and every part about you, blasted with antiquity. This describes the anti Arsenal posters on this site.

  11. Exeter Gunner

    Feb 26, 2016, 10:33 #84516

    Badarse - if you found my post vacuous I would say you missed the central point, and now I'm going to back up that statement by explaining why: Regardless of writing style or humour, the point is being able to back up what you say when challenged, especially if you're claiming a handle on the truth, as you've just done again there in characteristic style: 'he doesn't understand westlower - I do'. Rather than doing this, you find excuses not to: 'I won't convert anyone so what's the point', 'I won't bow to a demand' and so on. By the way, the use of reported speech, or quotes, is a way of strengthening an argument: 'you/they said this'. But as one who believes in making not arguments but proclamations, I understand why you view it as a weakness!

  12. Westlower

    Feb 26, 2016, 8:49 #84511

    @Mark I kept our season tickets until Highbury closed in 2006. The best I saw from Arsenal, were the 70/71 team, GG's 90/91 league winners, only losing at the Bridge, before GG morphed into Tony Pulis & Wengers teams who played the best football I've seen over a protracted period at Highbury. I retired early in 2008 to concentrate on by betting career, so I never renewed our ST's after the move to the Emirates. Due to my racing commitments, I can only attend football matches in the winter months Nov- Mar. No, I don't wish Arsenal to lose when I bet against them. I hurt the same as everybody else when we get beat, but sentiment plays no part in successful betting - ask Jeff. My insignificant football betting just keeps my brain ticking over through the winter, awaiting the start of the flat season in March, when the real betting begins. @mbg You call people idiots because we didn't prevent Abramovich from sacking Maureen? Do you really believe our opinions of Maureen played a part in his demise? You do come out with some gems.

  13. Badarse

    Feb 26, 2016, 8:33 #84510

    Morning Exeter, I do prefer a more pleasant exchange so it was pleasing to read your post. However, unlike the easily satisfied AKBest it didn't exactly answer my post. Beyond being a personal 'slapdown', or criticism of me/my posts it was vacuous; basically, 'you do this wrong-and "we" don't like it'. As explained on many occasions I am not trying to win a popularity contest, I leave that to the vainglorious-who shall be nameless. If my rambling humour isn't to your liking it is OK to just ignore. As for acronyms I spent ages criticising them initially, then just gave up and used them myself-I was seen on a Welsh beach railing at the wind screaming, 'I am not an acronym-I am a free man!'. Vitriol is delivered, even in courteous ways, the Mark of Nark's to westlower was loaded with it, but polite. All that lad did was convince me of what I have long since thought, a really nice little boat, but rudderless. He just doesn't understand about westlower, and I do-so the comment of, 'a wider societal context' was missed or overlooked on that one, wouldn't you agree. AKBest admits to not being so eloquent, actually he on occasions was downright rude-that has nothing to do with those speech/writing attributes. Anyway, as explained my 'humour' is a sideways glance of what I see going on around me, and a reduction to it's essence with a less than vicious 'dig'. Real acerbic humour can be unkind, whilst still telling the truth, I try not to be acerbic, a hero of mine-John Lennon-might have invented the term and it can be bitingly funny. On a critical note you use too much reported speech and AKBest uses the 'left wing' incorrectly too often, but who really cares, we are just people and need some slack cutting for us all? Still, it is better to be friendly. Did you listen to Beth Hart, or perhaps I should ask which music you prefer.

  14. Charlie George Orwell

    Feb 26, 2016, 8:13 #84509

    Nice one Robert, another great trip down memory lane. Still vividly remember Alan Sunderland's goal. When he scored, I ran out onto the balcony in Priory Green waving my Arsenal scarf and shouting my head off.

  15. Mark from Aylesbury

    Feb 26, 2016, 7:29 #84508

    Cornish - at one point I was tempted to do a skit on Myles Palmer. I see him as being an ex beatnik who has morphed into a Ralph Lauren lifestyle chap all designer house and yuppie pretensions. Ouch don't call him A yuppie! I quickly dropped the idea as I thought he may sue my Arse off! Anyway very occasionally between his irritating lifestyle discussions regarding Jan he does make valid points. He is also quite a good forecaster I have found.

  16. mbg

    Feb 25, 2016, 22:56 #84507

    If you haven't already seen it a great photo on Bring back my Arsenal face book of the Flying Scotsman chugging past the Emirates this morning, coincidence or what ? certainly very relevant indeed.

  17. Gaz

    Feb 25, 2016, 22:53 #84506

    Great post Tony E. Can't agree more with you...

  18. Arseneknewbest

    Feb 25, 2016, 22:45 #84505

    Exeter - respect, and many thanks. I enjoyed reading that very eloquently worded riposte to Badarse the irrepressible blowhard. I used to say these things to him (albeit slightly less fluently than you) and rather ended up losing the energy and will to continue. It's a message he clearly fails to understand which, of course, gives the lie to his smug and overblown self-confidence.

  19. mbg

    Feb 25, 2016, 21:54 #84504

    I see the best striker in the prem (no not the cart horse as some would have you believe)but James Vardy late of Fleetwood town has said the hardest defender he's come up against is (no not the big useless german or the back and arse turning coward KOS again as some would have us believe are world class)but Chris smalling who plays for that team that AKB's hate and love to and are always slagging off.

  20. Exeter Gunner

    Feb 25, 2016, 21:53 #84503

    Good evening, Badarse. Obviously you can post what you want, but as you comment upon comments, so you must expect the same in return. Giving a viewpoint isn't done for the purpose of 'converting' another, it's simply giving your viewpoint. Others, like Westlower, will say 'You're wrong, and this is why'. You, on the other hand, say 'You're wrong, you don't understand' and instead of explaining why, will put something dismissive about mobs or rabbles or phone boxes. Your tone is supercilious, you seem to think the rest of us are unable to place AFC and football within a wider societal context as you do. This is how you come across, like jj put it, an 'I am the only one who knows' narrative e.g. 'Everyone misunderstands Westlower'. No they don't, they put an interpretation on his remarks and can back them up with evidence from previous comments of his. He argues back, using points. You don't, you loftily dismiss. It's irritating, and this is why so much opprobrium comes your way. Incidentally, you are not 'easily understood'. And it's not because you're too clever for us, as you would clearly like to think. Your posts tend to lack a central point, your sentences contain too many clauses, drift into over-abstraction and self-indulgence - you seem to lack the capacity to self-edit. In short, you lack clarity and concision. I know this won't stop you posting in the same way, I do get this is simply your 'voice', but it's a viewpoint. I hope that's clear enough.

  21. mbg

    Feb 25, 2016, 20:40 #84502

    Mark from Aylesbury, 89410, great post. post of the day.

  22. Westlower

    Feb 25, 2016, 20:17 #84501

    Mark, I can understand your POV but I'm a semi-pro punter & bet for an income. I back for and against Arsenal depending on prices and how I view each match. I also back for and against every other club, if I feel there is money to be made. I've won more money on Man U than all the other clubs put together, mostly in the Fergie years. No fear of a penalty or red card awarded against his teams at OT. His players were coached to harass the officials over EVERY decision, with Giggs being the mouth piece in wearing down the officials resolve. Rooney does it today. You could always back against MU in Europe as Fergie had no sway over foreign officials.

  23. CORNISH GOONER

    Feb 25, 2016, 19:11 #84500

    ANR is NOT a favourite site due to the rather large ego (allegedly) of Myles Palmer. But sometimes he cuts down on the "look at me" stuff & writes short, punchy thoughts. His "Groundhog AFC" article today hits the spot. Depressing but probably the correct view on what lies ahead for us perennial optimists.

  24. mbg

    Feb 25, 2016, 19:06 #84499

    John F, at least there's no RVP for the AKB's to dish out abuse to and turn they're backs on.

  25. mbg

    Feb 25, 2016, 18:53 #84498

    Westlower, only AKB's use derogatory remarks as i'm sure your fully aware, and yes there's a big difference in Dwarfs who are technically gifted and are great players and can play football, and dwarfs who haven't a clue and useless.

  26. Westlower

    Feb 25, 2016, 18:34 #84496

    Especially for the sarcastic one: Prices for return leg - Barca 1/3, draw 21/4, AFC 10/1. Chance of a lifetime to invest at 33% to your stake, & get rich at the bookies expense on a cert - it'll only take 90 minutes to reap your reward! But wait, maybe a shred of doubt over a one of game. If you're laying down big money, the ref might be bent. Barca players may bet massive sums of money on AFC at 10/1. Men & money, you know how it works, FIFA and all that. Football is naturally corrupt with mega sums of money sloshing around. What to do with it all? Why did it take MSN 71 minutes to breach Arsenal's softies, marshalled by slow arse BFG? Did they not try in the first half to make their price increase from 4/6 before kick off to 6/4 at half time. Did the Barcelona board fill their boots at 6/4? Will Barcelona bottle it against Arsenal reserves in the Camp Nou? Is Luis Enrique a genius coach or just a lucky bast*rd who inherited some great players/team? So many great coaches, so many mediocre teams. When is a dwarf not a dwarf?

  27. Mark from Aylesbury

    Feb 25, 2016, 18:23 #84494

    Westie - you do yourself no favours admitting you bet against Arsenal. Let's look at the WOBs for want of a better description. Ron, JJ, Cornish , Exeter, MBG, Jeff, Seven Kings and then me and others. Let's see of that list who will come on here and confirm they bet regularly on Arsenal losing. Think you'll find a big No to that. So then let's take it as fact you do bet against Arsenal in fact you admit to betting on UTD to beat us. Then let's look at your comment 'I do it with heavy heart' conjecture my friend, who knows what you feel, you may be screaming "get in!" On a UTD goal after all that's a cash reward for you, Finally you admit to being a season ticket holder during the GG years but omit AW. Therefore have you actually gone over the last ten years? You get where I'm coming from don't you? An arm chair watcher driven by cash reward who is very happy to keep things as they are. We have nothing to learn from you apart from you are part of the problem.

  28. mbg

    Feb 25, 2016, 18:12 #84493

    Some comedy photos in The Sun Today of TOF bent over struggling to zip his sleeping bag from 2010 2013 up to Tuesday night, what an embarrassment.

  29. Hiccup

    Feb 25, 2016, 18:02 #84492

    Have all the bookies closed down? 48 hours since the barca game and not one mention of our odds of getting to the quarters of the CL? Is this the longest period that Arsene's Assistant Accountant has gone without publishing the figures?

  30. mbg

    Feb 25, 2016, 18:01 #84491

    Messi says he always knew they (wengers nice boys) would crack (you and the rest of us mate)he says we knew they wouldn't be able to cope with the pressure after the break, now that's one guy you listen to. Is there any player, or manager in the world who doesn't know what this predictable old fraud of a manager is like and can read him like a book ? and know what his little pansie players are about ? what a sad bunch.

  31. John F

    Feb 25, 2016, 17:56 #84490

    I remember Frank Stapletons transfer to utd i was devastated.I think it was the most abuse the North Bank ever dished out to a former player on his return to Highbury in a utd shirt.

  32. jjetplane

    Feb 25, 2016, 17:50 #84489

    Westie you have lost the plot again by comparing Arsene's lightweight midgets with Barcas smaller players who somehow happen to be arguably the best ever seen in football. Watching midget Messi fool the complete Emirates with a slight feint in order to finally get one past Cech was genius. Then put him the wrong way on a penalty simply cemented what we all know. Arsene FC are not as inventive as Las Palmas. Mark Lawrenson who is incredibly irritating spoke with a passion the other saying the Barca trident are the best he has ever seen 'and they are all midgets!# If we want to go to dwarfs then regards performances Barca are indeed a team of giants and the BFG was the smallest man on the pitch. Ridiculous but keep it coming until Wenger resigns probably only to give the job to your smart cookie Flamimi as other people's money buys power .... Have to guffaw with poor deluded Baddie and his 'am I the only one who knows' narrative. You say it so much you obviously have not a clue and thinking of yourself in terms of the Goon Show is the greatest delusion of all. Try keeping up yourself for a change.

  33. Westlower

    Feb 25, 2016, 17:24 #84488

    @David, You're intelligent enough to know a tongue in cheek remark when you read it. When, if ever, did Wenger reap the benefit from two subs scoring in the same game & a must win game at that? If you're read my exchanges with Ron, you'll realise I don't rate any coachs as a genius. Even highly successful coaches like Maureen are badly flawed in other areas of the job, such as respecting others. @mbg, Did you rate Joe Baker, Bob McNab, Eddie Kelly, Kenny Sansom & George Armstrong as dwarfs?

  34. David

    Feb 25, 2016, 17:08 #84486

    You're 'avin a larf Westie? - when Arsenal beat Leicester you described Wenger as a genius! Never called him great...I ask ya. You couldn't make this stuff up.

  35. Westlower

    Feb 25, 2016, 16:59 #84485

    @mbg What did you make of Barcelona's dwarfs? Is your description 'dwarfs' only derogatory when applied to Arsenal's players? @JJ, You can ridicule the English players all day long, but the rules dictate we've got to have a minimum of 8 home grown players.

  36. mbg

    Feb 25, 2016, 16:53 #84484

    jj, and laughing at Chelsea too, to far up their messiah's arse, and with to much hate for others to realise Maureen staying as long as possible would have been best all round, idiots.

  37. mbg

    Feb 25, 2016, 16:41 #84483

    Tony Evans, good post, just wait and see the FA Cup becoming important again for TOF and his followers, wouldn't it be ironic if it saved their messiah's arse again.

  38. Badarse

    Feb 25, 2016, 16:30 #84482

    Good afternoon Exeter, incidentally, I don't think it falls to you to determine who can post, when, and what they post. You do realise you might get a reputation as obsessive, don't you? Seriously, with all good humour, what am I to offer, and for what? People have fixed views, which is fine, but changing them is virtually impossible, even influencing many is a lost cause. I do not know your political persuasions but am convinced that we could talk in general terms-I do with most-but to convert to a differing view is subject to too many factors. My reverting to silliness is a trait, sorry. It does spring to mind, and all concepts and ideas stem from the imagination, that it can appear like a Monty Python sketch when a poster says something, another endorses, a third joins the party, and before too long they are standing together singing the same song at the top of their voices. OK a bit of artistic licence there but you get my drift, you do get my drift? Just checking. Everyone seems to misunderstand westlower's posts, which are easily understood and generally pertinent, (the same with mine though perhaps you could leave out the pertinent bit), though I agree the Goon sketches can be a bit 'out there'; Why are you carrying a boot full of porridge around?-I always carry a boot full of porridge around on a Monday.-But today's Tuesday!-Oh, I do feel a fool. Anyway, I'm putting the porridge down, mbg wants his boots back. Not sure what the thread is-is that the right term? Anyway Arsene Wenger, think he is the best thing to happen to Arsenal. The single best thing. He has many close rivals in our history, and I have so many Arsenal idols, but it is just my view. Always difficult to measure, and as time passed he became less successful in winning trophies it's true, but very successful in achieving other targets. Many vilified by most on here, which is OK, but it isn't my job to convince or argue, is it? Or is it? His failings are self-evident in some instances, but I do not rail against them, they are either small potato, or locked into the current mindset of the club. Now whether you consider these faults or failings as an individual's flaws, and reflective of society in general, is a personal one. If you believe another would not produce their own faults and it is desired by you, that too is fine, but not by me, which should be received as equally fine too. If it is rejected as a modern phenomenon that AFC behave in this way it is OK, once more I think it is subject to the strains and stresses of modern marketing and those mindsets of people today, which encourages it's continuance. If a differing view is offered which to me has credence and might change the status quo, then I will grasp it, but that is extremely unlikely. Anyway, have a listen to Beth Hart, an amazing voice.

  39. jjetplane

    Feb 25, 2016, 16:27 #84481

    Other AKM supernarratives of how Arsene fC players make up spine of England team. Sad news that the Ox will be out long term with surgery beckoning and do not see the likes of Theo and Jack getting far with England now. Where next for Wenger and the AKBs as each spin is dashed against the wall. If the news about a very unhappy Sanchez and a disinterested Ozil getting 'the dry thumb' then 4th place will be as good as it gets with the Totts, Foxes and City aiming for the top three .... Cannot see an FA Cup win as this year it is so much stronger without the Hulls and Villas getting a run. Arsene FC could reach the semis at a stretch but when you listen to the likes of Mertesacker parroting his boss as Olly does using the same language you know the game is up. And yet the money will come flying in and 'smart cookies' like Flamini are really what Arsenal are about. Flamini captain next season as he 'buys the band' .... Should be a fun game with the two least attacking sides in the PL going to head. Was not that long ago AKBs were laughing at boring Utd but now looks like they are in the corporate mire together - historical fate ....

  40. mbg

    Feb 25, 2016, 16:04 #84479

    Ron, talking of excuses I don't hear or see many of the wenger apologists making a big thing of their messiah and his dwarfs having 24 plus hours extra rest, can you imagine the out cry from the AKB wengerites if it was the other way round ? the conspiracy theories, the big bad prem league have it in for us, the ready made excuse/excuses, they'd have all been rolled out already in preparation, the petition would have been drawn up, but no not a peep. I wonder will the mancs players and they're fans do as much whinging and excuse making as TOF and his apologists ? or will they just man up and show some balls and get on with it.

  41. Tony Evans

    Feb 25, 2016, 15:58 #84478

    Hi Gaz - agree mate. I think the demise of the FA Cup is one of the saddest aspects of the so called 'Champions League' (what a misnomer that is) now being the be all and end all of what a 'top' club should be aiming at. This new TV money about to be pumped into the Premiership will also relegate the FA Cup to even more of an unwanted side show for Championship clubs chasing promotion. Even without this new glut of Premiership money Hull made 10 changes against us when their first team may well have seen them through. I don't know what the answer is - there is talk of giving the FA Cup winners a route to the CL through a play off with the 4th placed Premiership team. I wouldn't necessarily be against that as the CL couldn't be anymore devalued in my eyes than it is already. Awful shame it has come to this and, as you say, I feel sorry for fans that have never known the magic of the cup. How desperate we used to be to win it - remember the delirious joy of 71 and 79 and even 2005 for example. For us older fans it will always have a special place in our hearts and I get really hacked off when I see any club (not just Arsenal) put out a weakened side, whatever the reason. If businesses treated customers the way some clubs treat their fans they would soon go bust but in football they get away with it because they know the hold they have over their supporters. If only more fans would say no and we had some sort of supporters union! I'd willingly volunteer to be shop-steward. Everybody out!

  42. Ron

    Feb 25, 2016, 15:41 #84476

    Yr ranting Westie. Understandable. The difference is i can respect other Coaches. You clearly cant. Look at your excuses in that last post. Ferg is with out a doubt the real daddy of coaches in english football. His honours list proves it. The fact that Wenger became his rabbit is what really sticks in yr craw. Yr posts prove it. You apply the same criteria to Mourinho. Ranieri isnt great is he. Whoever has said that must live on the Groby Rd or in Wigston Leics surely? As for Barton, he inherited an excellent team from Saunders. De Matteo did too as did Fagan. For sure all have done what AW will never do though, 'great' or not.

  43. mbg

    Feb 25, 2016, 15:29 #84475

    Exeter Gunner, Mr Hitler ?

  44. Westlower

    Feb 25, 2016, 15:28 #84474

    For the sake of clarification, this is my order of importance of the great men who excelled at AFC. 1.Herbert Chapman 1925-34. 2. Arsene Wenger 1996 - . 3. George Graham 1986-1995. 4. George Allinson 1934-47. Bertie Mee 1966-76. Tom Whittaker 1947-56. Please note all these legends were given a minimum 9/10 years as manager. Arsenal have never been a hire 'em, fire 'em club. @Ron, You rate coaches higher than I do. Great players/teams make 'great' coaches. Joe Fagan, Emerich Jenei & Raymond Goethals, Tony Barton, Roberto Di Matteo have all won the European Cup. How many of them do you consider great? Ranieri is considered great at the moment but it wasn't always so. Of course Fergie had great players/teams but he also had the added assurance of all major decisions going his way at OT, courtesy of intimidated English officials. Barcelona players have no problem screaming out & feigning injury when tackled to court the refs favour. All the great sides look for additional insurance from the officials. Twas ever thus.

  45. Exeter Gunner

    Feb 25, 2016, 15:28 #84473

    And after a decent first post under the last article Badarse reverts to groundlessly supercilious type - no rebuttal, no counterargument, no point of his own. Refuses to do it, not capable of doing it even if he wanted to.

  46. mbg

    Feb 25, 2016, 15:19 #84472

    Mark from Aylesbury, good post, if we were to get rid of wenger this evening or even make him sit it out until the end of the season, and bring George Grahame in tomorrow morning for the remainder of the season I've no doubt and i'd even bet on it, we'd win the prem this year.

  47. Badarse

    Feb 25, 2016, 15:17 #84471

    Wow, phone box chats going on, on both articles, plus many Gravitational Waves.

  48. Exeter Gunner

    Feb 25, 2016, 15:11 #84470

    I can recall you calling Wenger 'the daddy of them all', also claiming that his teams of the last decade were better than the 30s teams as sometimes the 30s teams didn't finish in the top 4. If you haven't used the specific word 'great' it's because Wenger is beyond great for you, nothing is ever his fault, it's all malign external forces, he literally can do no wrong, you view him as a sort of modern day saint. But if we are to take your supporting rationale at its word, does this mean that when the next coach is in situ you will be regularly bringing up the lowlights and expressing your disappointment at Wenger's tenure?

  49. Gaz

    Feb 25, 2016, 15:08 #84469

    Hi Tony. We were right behind that missed pen which is unusual as our normal home was the corner between the North bank and West Stand! Went mental when he missed though didn't it? Before posting this I've just watched it on YouTube! What a great day!!! Packed ground in the days when the FA really was something great. Feel sorry for the younger generation of fans who'll never understand just how big an occasion an FA cup game was back then...

  50. jjetplane

    Feb 25, 2016, 15:08 #84468

    Anyone can Google a football memory and writing the teams of the day down is hardly the recount of a football fan. Narrow geekiness with the old GG had stopped attacking by then and no manager is great but God is. Westie's God is Wenger ....

  51. Ron

    Feb 25, 2016, 14:59 #84467

    The trouble with that holier than though position Westlower (we both know you're being disingenuous) is that you cant be the paragon that you clearly want to be, while at the same time slaking off all and sundry amongst the coaching fraternity who run those Clubs who often work Wenger over, crafting all of yr excuses as to why AFC cant match such coaches and looking for all sorts of caustic reasons and excuses among those Clubs and coaches who do it to AFC and Wenger so frequently. You many never have used the word 'great' in context of Wengers coaching ability. I dont mind or care if you have or not. Its whats in all of yr posts that betrays yr undying love for the present regime of which Wenger is but one part, that lends the lie to your post. Its double standards and you know it. Have you been attending Badarses evening classes by any chance? Your post is a bit more of yr spin isnt it. That type of spinning makes you a more than comfortable fit with the modern AFC indeed.

  52. Exeter Gunner

    Feb 25, 2016, 14:46 #84465

    Not sure who you think you're kidding with that latest post, Westlower. AFC neither won the league nor were relegated in '93 so why does a league position from 23 years ago matter so much to you - especially as a cup double was achieved? You bring up GG's low points as often as you can and everyone knows why you do it.

  53. mbg

    Feb 25, 2016, 13:54 #84464

    jw, it needs sorting alright but will it be ? will it fook absolutely nothing will be done about it, TOF will just let it slide, carry on in the same vein waiting and hoping (like always)that it will all come good of it's own accord or if by magic. You couldn't make it up. wenger out.

  54. Westlower

    Feb 25, 2016, 13:39 #84463

    As a season ticket holder throughout the GG era I experienced all the highs & lows. Saw some brilliant performances mixed in with mediocrity. Same goes for Wenger. I do not put football coaches on pedestals, they are simply doing a job of work. I challenge anyone on here to find a post where I've called Wenger, GG, Mee or any other Arsenal manager a great coach. The nearest I've come, is calling Don Howe the best coach Arsenal ever had. Stop confusing football with your own loaded & often bitter political agendas. @Cyril, Yes we did do the cup double over Sh. Wed in 93 but our league performances were lamentable. To lose 16 league games is unacceptable for AFC. To only score 2 more goals than we conceded is diabolical. To have a goal for/against ratio of 1.05 is the stuff of relegation fodder. These are not the returns of a great coach. Wenger great coach? No not for me, but I will support him as I did all the others, especially GG. Wenger has wasted opportunities to take us to the next level, but so did GG after 90/91. Sadly, GG left us in a poor state at the time of his sacking. Some of his signings were abysmal. That doesn't make me a Wenger lover for stating my disappointments with George. Yes I have backed MU to beat us, at odds of 2/1 at OT. given our past history it would be foolish not too. And yes, I hope I lose my bet, I really do. I'm only playing up my Barcelona winnings after all.

  55. Ron

    Feb 25, 2016, 13:30 #84461

    Cyril - Westlowers footie history started in Sept 1996. All before that has been erased. He started the Westlowerian calender at yr 1 the day Wenger arrived. Hes the Pol Pot of the on line Gooner. Thats why hes the Secretary Treasurer at Central Command.

  56. cyril

    Feb 25, 2016, 13:15 #84460

    Westlower: For balance, as I know you didn't mean to omit the fact that we won the cup double that year to become the first English team to do it. Yep, that possibly is the glory days that mbg refers to!

  57. Ron

    Feb 25, 2016, 13:06 #84459

    Wengers had his good days at OT of course, but theyve moe than been negated by the humiliations at OT. I was sadly there for the 6-1 in 2001, the 4-0 Cup loss in 2009 and the 8-2 in 2011 plus of course the opening of the Wenger sulkathon after the 2-0 loss in 2004. Seen most of the narrow losses there too! Its right that Arsenal have always been pathetic at OT even in the years pre Wenger. The players have always olooked apologetic for being there. In fairness, most other Clubs rooll over and die there too. This is what makes Manchester Utd the great Club they are. No Westlower, Its not Fergie and dark influences thats made Utd, its great players and genuine flair filled football for the vast majority of their history thats done it. We can dislike them but only as long as we know and accept that its envy that motivates our distaste for them. I know that you have a distaste for any Club Coach or team that isnt Wenger tinged of course! The week end will be no different. Best chance to beat them at OT for donkey's years. Our lambs lack the balls to grasp the nettle there and go sort Utd out. Wengers body language there will be as bad as it ever is. They should leave him at home and ask Bouldie to take the team in my view. 1-1 or 0-0 at best but probably 2-0 to Utd.The saddest thing is that ill be there again for yet another masochistic experience!

  58. mbg

    Feb 25, 2016, 12:49 #84458

    The 8-2 mauling, embarrassment, humiliation, (and a few others)that wenger was also responsible for is the only historical record we need to be aware off and is the only one that needs taking into consideration. And that's before we even go in to all the other embarrassments over the last ten years.

  59. Tony Evans

    Feb 25, 2016, 12:35 #84457

    Gaz - For some reason that I can't remember my mate and I were in the clock-end when Mclair skied that penalty. We always used to stand in the North Bank so I don't know why we weren't that day. Brilliant moment though and I can still see Nutty giving it loud when the penalty went over the bar.

  60. Javier M

    Feb 25, 2016, 12:17 #84454

    "We knew that Arsenal couldn't maintain the intensity of the first few minutes," Mascherano told the The Mirror on Wednesday. "We knew that sooner or later we would find them disorganised at the back "And in the end that's how it was. We seized the moment and we've taken a great victory that allows us to face the future with greater optimism."

  61. Mark from Aylesbury

    Feb 25, 2016, 12:14 #84453

    Westie at every opportunity you trash George Graham's name but let's look at this. If a GG turned up now (Mourinho style) was giving a 3 year contract which is then subsequently increased and that manager won a couple of titles a cup double and a European tournament. Before then being replaced when form slipped. How is that worse than your Teflon messiah (haul 2 cups in 10 years) for the life of me I think you are a traitor to Arsenal wrapped up as a Wenger groupie. Got a bet on Utd winning have you?

  62. Gaz

    Feb 25, 2016, 12:07 #84451

    Was in the North bank the day Mclair missed that penalty! Worst moment I can remember was at Villa Park when Anelka scored and we all went bonkers! Went through the whole damn 'goal' celebration only to see it disallowed! Gutted!!! As for Sunday this is the worst Utd side I've seen in my life time and anything other than a win will be a disaster. As Tony E has alluded too we really should win this game but I'd never discount AW's ability to get it all badly wrong again...

  63. jeff wright

    Feb 25, 2016, 12:03 #84450

    Psychology apart from fitness will play a part in the outcome of Sunday's game and United's Ropey Cup game tonight could play a part in how the confidence factor is regarding United's players mindsets and that of the under-siege manager's as well. Mourinho has helped settle things down a bit regarding him replacing LVG' ,he would do wouldn't he considering who LVG is facing on Sunday, by his statement he he would rather wait until the end of the season before taking LVG's job of him. Well that is what in reality he said ,although couched in more diplomatic terminology. A win tonight for LVG will take off some pressure a draw or defeat will increase it. Wenger and our 'naive players' are already under pressure themselves however - although of a different sort - with Wenger being the Bullet Proof Monk of world football regarding his own job - but 5 games without scoring in the last 8 played needs sorting and on top of this we are now facing a resurgent City who will be keen to show that writing off their chances for the league title has been a little premature. 3 points are required on Sunday for us while City play in the League Cup Final - this gives them a game in hand on us - Newcattle away - and a much easier run -in . It's never over until the fat bird sings.

  64. Exeter Gunner

    Feb 25, 2016, 12:03 #84449

    First big memory of a Man U game for me was as a schoolkid in Aug '86, GG's first game in charge, Charlie Nicholas scored a late winner, was on the North Bank which erupted. Kicked off the GG era... which Westlower continues to denigrate by focusing on its low points in the belief it places Wenger in a better light. Though mbg may well refer to '93 as glory days, as AFC did a domestic cup double, back when the clubs valued those competitions.

  65. Westlower

    Feb 25, 2016, 11:25 #84447

    My first visit to OT was in March 1993 when surprisingly the crowd was as low as 37,301. This was a period when Man U were awakening from their long slumber having not won the league since 1966/67. The game itself was a drab 0-0 with GG virtually abandoning attacking football that season. The most memorable moment was a rare shot from Paul Merson, which thundered against the cross-bar, cue anxious home supporters leaving for home as the tension became too much for them. In the event they needed have worried as they won the league by 10 points clear of runners up Aston Villa. Arsenal finished a poor 10th scoring only 40 goals in George's most frugal season, losing more games (16) than we won. Even the Spuds finished above us in the league table. Must be the glory days that mbg keeps referring to? Also got to shake Brian McClair's hand after the game, although I must confess to being tempted to kick him in the shin, but I behaved myself. Teams - MU: Schmeichel, Parker, Irwin, Bruce, Pallister, Ince, McClair, Giggs, Sharpe, Hughes (Robson), Cantona. AFC: Seaman, Dixon, Morrow, Keown, Linighan, Adams (Hillier), Jensen, Carter (Parlour), Merson, Wright, Campbell.

  66. Peter Wain

    Feb 25, 2016, 10:56 #84446

    difficult to see a win on Sunday as cannot see us scoring or keeping a clean sheet. As usual the manager criticises players he bought after a big game loss. Question is why last year did he buy no one if the current lot are naieve. Answers on a postcard.

  67. Tony Evans

    Feb 25, 2016, 10:49 #84445

    Some memorable matches over the years and none more so for me than the 79 final. It's the only time I can remember virtually being on the verge of tears when the equaliser went in, only to be on cloud 9 again moments later! Good time to play them this weekend with their injury problems so let's hope General Clueless doesn't still find a way to mess up even so.

  68. Wear Your Colours

    Feb 25, 2016, 10:30 #84444

    Loved the coverage of the 0-2 win in 1979. My first ever trip to Old Trafford. I went-up their on one of the old fashioned Arsenal special trains that they redirected along the minor branch lines in Manchester to stop just outside the cricket ground. Both Alan Sunderland's goals were scored in quick succession, late in the second-half if I remember correctly. We could do with one of our forwards getting a brace on Sunday. COYG!