Arsenal Circular 172 – Why Arsene Should Be Given Two More Years

Sensible debate requested on Pro-Wenger reasoning



Arsenal Circular 172 – Why Arsene Should Be Given Two More Years

At least rival fans seem united over AW’s future!


Dear Fellow Gunners

In my last Arsenal Circular I relayed an exchange between Victor Thompson, an Arsenal fan with strong criticisms of AW, and my response. Today I take it a stage further. I am active on Twitter and have almost 3,000 followers – almost all are AFC fans but the noisier and the nastier responses come from quite vulgar and insulting anti AW fans. I am sure that there are some “nasties” among the pro AW fans as well. But as you know if you read my Arsenal Circular or follow the tweets @arsenalcircular there is a lot of misplaced venom on the Wenger issue. I always say “Reserve your hate and hostility for Racists and Fascists and not for people who merely take a different view on the current position at AFC”. But standards have changed due to the ease and freedom to comment on social media. Too many people abuse the new found freedom given to us by Twitter and other forms of communication to denigrate, insult, mock, humiliate people with whom they disagree. There is also a non-football point here – intolerance is growing and eats away at the proper functioning of free and democratic debate. Prediction - we will have big problems ahead when non-football issues grab the attention of Twitter users.

Back to AFC. I list a sample of anti-AW comments with my response in italics;-

DOES AW FAIL TO ANSWER FAN’S CRITICISMS?
Managers should engage with fans but they are not answerable to fans. Wenger is employed by the Board. He is accountable to the Board and has to answer to them for every reasonable football question they have. Wenger is not employed by the fans and he has no duty to answer each and every question that fans raise. That said Wenger has to make himself accountable but he never hides from the media; he answers every question they ask at the weekly press conference; he does not duck questions raised in post match interviews. Some questions he will treat with contempt if asked but that is his right – such questions being Are you a failure? Why has Sanchez not signed a new contract? But Wenger is not a missing manager or a contemptuous manager.

CAN AW STILL DETECT TALENT?
All AFC fans agree that Holding is a star in the making. Purchased for just £2m he has fans purring. We have confidence he will make it. He was signed just last summer. So Wenger, who has the final word on transfers, can still detect talent. Not every signing is a success. That is true of AFC and other clubs too. At least we have not given a free transfer to a player one year and then spent £80m to buy him back a couple of years later. With transfers some succeed and some fail. The jury is out on Chambers but there is a growing feeling that Gabriel is coming good. Sanogo seems not to be the right talent but Perez – when injury free – is the right talent. The issue that talent slips by has been given sharper focus by the THFC purchases of Kane and Alli and others. When Wenger came to the UK he had a virtual monopoly of French talent. Today is different and all clubs have an active scouting team. I do not know enough about our structure but I accept we would be happy to have the two THFC players in our squad. In answer to the question my view remains that Wenger can still detect talent but detecting and signing is a tough challenge. We’ll see what progress our new left back from Hednesford makes – was it £20,000? Watch this one.

NO TITLE IN 13 YEARS – SURELY HE IS FINISHED?
We last won the title in 2004. We have not challenged since 2004. It is quite right that the question should be asked and those of us who believe in Wenger should not avoid this difficult question. A number of points need to be made;- First, it is an inescapable fact that we have built a stadium and the funding turned us into a Club that sold stars rather than purchased stars. We could not pay the stars the sums their talent entitled them to seek, Other clubs stepped in with increased remuneration packages and we lost many players of talent. Few of the players actually admitted it was a money thing and sought to justify their departure on football grounds – eg RVP - but we know that a football career is of limited duration and players have a relatively few years to obtain the high rewards that are available. They left. Again Wenger lacked funds to buy big and pay big and we fell behind. In my view no blame – no blame at all – attaches to Wenger. On the contrary – and remember today is the day that Manchester United were relegated in 1974 to be followed in 1975 by THFC – it is a great achievement for Wenger to have kept us as a top four club throughout this period. Instead of being derided he should be praised as he is by many AFC fans. And remember that Liverpool have been 20 years without a title and THFC 56 years.

WE HAVE SUFFERED BIG DEFEATS – THE MANAGER SHOULD GO?
Defeats hurt and big defeats hurt big. 8-2 by United. 6-1 by CFC. Also defeats by Liverpool. Yes it is a humiliation that causes pain. I am not complacent when I say it happens. Chapman suffered the Cup defeats at Walsall still recalled by Arsenal critics. Also defeats by Northampton Town in 1958, by Blackburn Rovers and I think I recall a 7-1 defeat by Sunderland when they were a top team. But as you recall the defeats please also remember that under Wenger we have never flirted with mid-table anonymity or even relegation. Never. Being a top four team for 20 years needs to be recalled in the same breath as the defeats. Which other manager can boast of that record while recording some always speedily recalled defeats. Balance and fairness please. Let me mention the 10-2 BM score this season over two legs. The first leg was 5-1. No comment – it was a bad defeat. Maybe we should have switched to three at the back earlier in the season but some fans cheat when they add to the away score the second leg 5-1 defeat at home. Remember we were one up. We should have had a penalty. We then had a harsh penalty given against us and a consequent equaliser by BM and a red card for Kos. We needed to win. We had been playing well. We had just one alternative – attack. We did and got picked off. For me no criticism at all of the home second leg defeat. Those that cite it as evidence of decline are not being straight – in the same way they fail to identify or even mention the selling years within the 13 years.

NO TITLE SINCE WE BECAME A BUYING CLUB – SURELY HE IS FINISHED?
Wenger fans have to accept that expectations that we would again be in a position to challenge for top spot have been dashed. We have not challenged. We should have challenged but we haven’t. It has to be a negative and I accept that. My concern is his belief at the beginning of last season that the addition of just Cech was sufficient to make us title challengers. It clearly wasn’t and the combination of Arteta, Flamini and Rosicky in midfield fell far short of the necessary talent to win the League and last season with The Manchester clubs, Chelsea and Liverpool in disarray was our best chance to win. This year was always going to be harder but to be 18 points behind CFC (with one game in hand) is a bad negative and not a positive. So why do I say he is not “finished” – that he still has a Title within him – that he is still a winner. Is this sentiment? – an understandable human feeling for an a much liked manager? Yes there is some sentiment there. I, in common with many others, do have affection for Wenger but let me be unmistakeably clear that sentiment is not a justification for a clear football judgement that he remains the man to win a title for us. It isn’t and much as I revere AW sentiment can have no place in a decision.

The more appropriate question is whether he is still the man for the job if he has failed to win the title since we became a buying club. He has had funds. He has spent on Alexis, Oxil, Xhaka and Mustafi but we are still 18 points behind. Time to Go say the critics. No, say I, and here are my reasons;-

1. I do believe in him despite passing through a rocky period. He has made a significant change in the format of the team. His willingness to make a change is a big plus. He does not, as alleged by his critics, have his head in the sand. Three at the back with two wing backs has bought us three successive wins. We are not the finished article. We remain apprehensive as we fight a loss of confidence and adjust to a new formation but wins are wins. They matter as does the willingness to try a different formation

2. Mustafi started very well and then hit an uncertain patch. Not a hanging offence. It happens to all central defenders and especially in their first season. He will come back from injury and uncertainty with a strong desire to prove his long term worth. Xhaka is the reverse – started uncertainly but is growing in confidence. He, too, has more to offer. I see them as good signings with a long term contribution. Much will come from Holding.

3. Questions remain about Walcott, Ramsey and Coq. That is true of all teams – we all have different views about the make-up of the squad. Some recall Ramsey as the star midfielder of three year ago, others see him as a perennial under-achiever. But this is balanced by speculation as to new purchases and the appearance in the first team squad of youth players ready for their chance – Adelaide, Bielik, Willock. Progress is always a mix of buys and youth. I have no reason to believe that Wenger will not buy well. Theo has had a good season but – like Ozil – is insufficiently physical. There is no physical threat from either player. One maybe can be tolerated but not two. Another point – Theo’s comment after the Palace game that “they were more up for it than us” was wrong – even if it was right (which in my view it wasn’t) was it a mature, sensible thing to say or plain stupid?

For me AFC is something unique – something special. It is “tradition” in football terms. It does boast a great Community activity which is far more than few hospital visits to the children’s wards – important though they are. I do not want an Ancelotti or a Mourinho or a Hiddink – successful managers who offer themselves to the highest bidder. I want a manager that lives, breathes, eats AFC and I will extend the period of non-achievement for such a man to enable him to come again. Some argue that we can dispense with AW and hire this one or that one and we may become winners and I know that some fans – desperate for success and bragging rights (nothing wrong in that) – would go for that option in a flash. I am not there for two reasons;-

1. Football and AFC mean more to me that just a title. It is the long term community thing. It is the identification with the Club. It is the munitions workers in 1886. Wenger embraces that.

2. I believe Wenger can do it. He is not “all washed up”. He may be older than the other top six coaches but that should not count against him if he has the talent. We need to build on the tactical change. We need to finish strongly. If we miss out on the Champions League it will be a setback but not a disaster.

WHEN SHOULD HE STAND DOWN?
Two more years

LAST POINT
Anti-AW often say – “give me a footballing reason why he should stay”
I have thought about this but need the critics to suggest some reasons – I want to be sure I understand what you mean by the term “footballing reason” – tactics, formation, training?

Let me know

That is all from me.
In response I want from you, the reader, comment but not insult.
I want reasons but not one liners.
I want debate but not derision.
Take a leaf out of the exchange between Victor Thompson and myself.
Let’s be civil. Let’s acknowledge that we all spring from the same source.
Let’s have good football comment and not the vulgar abuse.
I have set out my reasoned views in response to a request from Monty.
Now that you have read it, it is your turn to respond with reasoned views.
To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war.

All the best for Sunday

Regards
Graham


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56
comments

  1. elseg25

    May 02, 2017, 15:24 #101076

    There is absolutely zero logic to your argument, Graham. It looks to me like you're frightened of the change we so desperately need and stuck in 2004 where Wenger was the messiah. Note the use of the word "was". He is past his peak, can no longer motivate his team, his tactics and game management are nothing short of a joke. There has been no change over the course of the last 12 months. We were embarrassed by Tottenham on Sunday, presumably you found that acceptable? Everybody's time in football comes up eventually and this applies to Wenger.

  2. mbg

    May 01, 2017, 16:52 #101037

    bergkamp 10, can you not see that has already happened for wenger, a long time ago, and has been happening for wenger now for more than a few seasons, a bloody good few seasons, you sound to me like a few others others on here you'd change your mind and keep TOF in the blink of an eye, he should have been gone years ago. wenger out now.

  3. Perryashburtongroves

    May 01, 2017, 11:37 #101016

    Ridiculous. Utter nonsense. Its people like this that have kept this Fraud in a job for so long and will continue to do so. It's just a Furher cult with people like this, the SS. Pathetic and embarrassing scraping of a ****-stinking barrel.

  4. Exeter Gunner

    May 01, 2017, 9:54 #101009

    "under GG and Don Howe we had some bloody horrible days in their last few seasons. I certainly don't want that to happen or end that way for Wenger." You can't see that that is and has been happening already? How do you define 'bloody horrible days' if not the continuous, record breaking humiliations we see these days?

  5. bergkamp10

    May 01, 2017, 8:48 #101006

    Graham, Some good points. Likewise Yes it's Ron, that same. A life long Gooner(35+ years watching the AFC. Wenger has been great for our club and the whole football world has changed. His achievement of keeping us in the Top4 in such a tough league will be well remembered. I think the club will keep him, but I agree with many that the club DO need a change & a major overall. As I have battled with fans for and against the 2-3 years after he goes will be horrible & tough. But the club now needs new leadership, direction & a overhaul. This isn't just for the short term of 1st team either. Lastly, under GG and Don Howe we had some bloody horrible days in their last few seasons. I certainly don't want that to happen or end that way for Wenger. I hope he takes a informed decision in the summer & is honest with 'his club' & himself....!! We DO need to move forward again.

  6. Graham71

    May 01, 2017, 8:26 #101005

    I still find it amazing after this disastrous season there are still Wenger supporters.Are they mental?Do they wear a blindfold during our games?We are rubbish because we have poor players bought picked and trained by Wenger.Last summer Wenger spent £90m on garbage.I wouldnt give him £10 to spend.But dont worry next season we will have Cazorla and Wheelchair back.Its over AKB's its over

  7. markymark

    May 01, 2017, 8:02 #101004

    Well Mr Perry that was a performance of grit and determination from err Spuds. That should act as a good preview for the Cup Final horror that is about to unfold. You want two more years of this? Strange fan you are with your 3000 followers?!?

  8. Ian M

    Apr 30, 2017, 18:55 #100992

    You sound like an employee. Either way, the litany of worn out excuses is long, thin and inexcusable. The debate is over, and has been for some time. All reigns come to an end eventually. A self aware person with some humility would accept that and walk away with dignity. Arsene is immune to the reality and is heading for a sad end to his career. Game over. The debate you seek has been going on for years. The results are in and it is obvious. You are trying to resurrect a dead parrot.

  9. mbg

    Apr 30, 2017, 18:53 #100990

    So there's the pathetic old excuse for a manager that some want for another two years (and no doubt another two after that)f*****g clueless, your as f*****g pathetic as him. Go now wenger and take the viruses of this club that are the perrys with you. @no new contract, We want wenger out we want wenger out.

  10. shu

    Apr 30, 2017, 18:25 #100988

    How can you defend the performance against Spurs Graham , do u really think wenger can take this team forward ? No way

  11. mbg

    Apr 30, 2017, 14:31 #100986

    Rippy, and if he got us relegated as far as the wengerites would be concerned he'd be the man to get us back up such is their love and devotion to him and not the club, they really do deserve him, unfortunately it's the proper fans suffering. We want wenger out we want wenger out.

  12. Guernsey gunner

    Apr 29, 2017, 22:23 #100982

    Give it a rest mate I am typing this in france after 10 pints and a few ricards. You are a joke mate if you think clueless should have one more day as manager. Don't let recent results fool you. He is ****in clueless. Wenger out now

  13. mbg

    Apr 29, 2017, 17:47 #100978

    markymark, lets hope it's on TOF's route/journey and he can see it every day, maybe that's the intention and why it's there, well done to all, wenger out.

  14. markymark

    Apr 29, 2017, 14:02 #100974

    Does anyone know if the Wenger Out on Marble Arch is a photo mockup or has someone actually done a brilliant projection onto Marble Arch? I am very impressed ( See Daily Mail)

  15. markymark

    Apr 29, 2017, 13:46 #100973

    Highbury Boy - its very sad this , I'm only into Arsenal for two Silver memberships and refused the option on season tickets twice (funny that as we are told there's a twenty thousand queue). I highly suspect if he is given a final contract he won't complete it. Each disaster has caused a ramp up in protest and also stay aways. My gut feel is low attendances with poor atmosphere and a collapse in morale would do for him in 2018. I obviously can't advise what to do. A very difficult decision.

  16. Highbury Boy

    Apr 29, 2017, 12:32 #100971

    Graham,when Wenger arrived he inherited from GG the great back 5plus a great goalscorer in Ian Wright. From Rioch/Dein he was bequeathed Platt plus the wonderful DB. After 20 years of buying and bringing through the academy he has just one player who would get into the team Wenger had in his first season. And that player Sanchez is almost certainly following the footsteps of Fabregas Van Persie and Nasri in wanting to be winners.Another 2 years underWenger and we will be mid-table. If he stays then I am giving up the 4 season tickets I have held since 1970. I have been watching since before won the League in 52/53 so I can recognise the bad times are coming under the continuance of Wenger.We need a new manager who will dispense with the players we have or make them work harder or with different tactics.

  17. mbg

    Apr 29, 2017, 9:31 #100968

    Having been well indoctrinated by the cult of wenger themselves the perrys of this club are like their messiah they take other fans for mugs and expect them to follow suit and listen nod and agree and chant themselves when told and ordered to by the believers, yet another failed attempt, So no Cigar and back to the drawing board, don't give up the day job. wenger out now.

  18. John F

    Apr 29, 2017, 8:31 #100967

    "I have over 3000 followers"and a link to your twitter, strikes me that you are a man who is in to self promotion and that you write for effect rather then any great belief.I still have a fear that Spurs can win this title.Chelsea have two tough games in Everton and West Brom away and are leaking goals.

  19. markymark

    Apr 29, 2017, 7:26 #100966

    Think Graham is going to be a little disappointed when he pops down to the polling booth in 5 weeks time and finds his favourite politician Kim Jong Un isn't on the ballot. Oh well there's always his sidekick Wengo to keep him happy.

  20. mbg

    Apr 29, 2017, 0:27 #100965

    Ham, spot on, I've been saying that myself for years the dough was always there, TOF hadn't the balls to use it and yes he knew if he did he'd have to prove himself and be successful, and again knowing he hadn't it in him and the balls to even try, preferred to blame others for spending money, and hide behind spin lies and excuses, and of course the wengerites and lambsies followed suit and the rest is history, but/and sure as day follows night they've all been blown out of the water and torn apart for years now, little Leicester been a good example doing what he's/he'd been trying to do for twelve years (how wenger must have hated that)and here we have his chief toilet flusher still trying, trying to convince others of the inconvincible. If he and his like weren't so dangerous to this club you'd feel sorry for them. We want wenger out.

  21. Ebor Gooner

    Apr 28, 2017, 23:22 #100964

    OK, you are entitled to your opinion. But here's my question. What, exactly, do you expect Mr Wenger to achieve in these two years? A realistic challenge for the Premier League? Progression beyond the first knock out stages of the Champions League? What would it take for you, personally, to say, enough is enough, let some one else have a go? Most (if not all) of us were Wenger supporters in the past. However, years and years, of the same old issues, and not addressing the obvious problems, have led us to the conclusion that we need a change. You, clearly, believe Mr Wenger can, and will, change, and enable our club to compete for the major trophies. If he doesn't, over the next two years, will you still believe he has it in him? Or will you accept change is needed? If not, how long should he be given? Another 5 years? 10? 15? 20? I'm genuinely curious as to your views.

  22. Rippy

    Apr 28, 2017, 21:32 #100963

    Seriously .. With logic like we haven't been relegated you can't win . And there's no point in even arguing they would see the silver lining in a bag of **** falling on them from the heavens . Wenger has the 4th biggest wage bill by far. He differs every year in the transfer market . His not improving . His had a good long time. None of this makes him a bad person and I really think he loves the club .. but nothing lasts forever . Why bother with 2 more years change it now freshen things up before the fans lose interest more than they have already . Plus a good send off would be a great thing to do . Plus why should he take even more flack for that parasite kroenke !!

  23. CORNISH GOONER

    Apr 28, 2017, 20:02 #100962

    Oh ffs, you say you want comment & not insult etc. etc. but, Jesus, you don't make it easy do you? Alright then, I give in, you are right & the rest of us are wrong - happy now? "Follow me good people we're bound for The Promised Land". Actually this reminds me, because I am old, of the Falklands conflict when our lads did not like the locals & decided they were a bunch of ungrateful retards. They called them "Bennies" after the TV Crossroads character. Their PC officers clamped down & banned the use of the word. Guess what, our boys started calling them SBs - Still Bennies. You can't win Graham - your hero has reduced us to a pile of footballing poo despite the considerable resources at his disposal. Finally, because I am probably a bit thick, could you explain the "tradition", "special" & "unique" feature about AFC in 2017 please? Is our bewigged owner a custodian of these qualities along with his lovely mate, The Donald? Whatever you are on, I could do with some.

  24. mbg

    Apr 28, 2017, 18:43 #100961

    Clash, good post, of course the debates have been done to death, (years ago)and there's no doubt the perrys of this club know that too, but still they try and keep it going by rehashing the same old shyte because it's all the sados have left now, they've absolutely nothing else to offer and haven't had for years and they know that too, but still it doesn't stop them such is the love and support and love for their messiah wenger and not the club, proof (if any was needed) with another sad effort again even knowing what the reaction was going to be.@no new contract, we want wenger out.

  25. jjetplane

    Apr 28, 2017, 17:56 #100960

    Talk about what? Your eerie affection for some accountant? Love how you start with your almost 3000 followers trumpeting which tells me like the Atwoods of this world you have all your eggs in one very smelly basket and there is nowhere else for you to go after the DICTATOR has fallen into some banal disgrace. Do not understand what spell he has cast over YOU LOT but must say it's good for laugh and if you keeps you happy, by all means Reverend ..... The move to the large toilet like bowl, like the badge is part of the grim effort to destroy AFC but if you are happy with that then you are no Arsenal supporter. I know your mate Attwood is trying to rewrite early Arsenal history so no suprise you sing the same clinical song. ps Holding has had a couple of games as a defender (his job?) - big ****ing deal! Wenger (non-football spin doctor) OUT OUT OUT! all season long. Lastly Ozil is **** and he cost over 40m! Your case is laughable, whatever that case is. I imagine like Wenger, it is all about you.

  26. Roy

    Apr 28, 2017, 17:53 #100959

    I have to say Graham that I quite enjoyed reading that article, well set out and articulate with a reasoned structural debate. Well done for that, otherwise I probably would have lost the will to live way before the end. However, it has been clear for some time now that things have gone stale and that change is needed. After the so called austerity years, if Wenger was going to make a realistic title challenge it would have happened last season. The fact that he screwed it up big time when practically laid on a plate for him suggests that he probably should have gone at the end of the last contract so how can another one possibly be justified when no progress in real terms has been made over the present one ? If we fall out of the top four this time it will be no more than the spineless regime deserve, to say it has been coming is an understatement. The mythical 4th place trophy is exactly that, and totally irrelevant from a fans point of view under this manager who can no longer take on the best over two legs. And the recent switch to three at the back just smacks of a last act of desperation from and old man who can no longer cut it - the body language of some players recently tells a story, and I don't think we'll even take 3 points from the next two games. Ideal scenario ? - somehow get lucky against Chavski, then Wenger announces he's on his bike. The time is right, and with the fan base divided another 2 years has the potential to be hugely damaging. All the best, Graham.

  27. Alsace

    Apr 28, 2017, 17:45 #100958

    I have arrived through logic to a position of faith. "Wenger must go" I chant. "Alsatian Bad - Fat Sam good" I intone. There is much peace and love and breaking of bread on a Friday Saturday or Sunday Night. Sadly for Mr Wenger in my new religion, we dangle Graham's glorious leader by his legs from the top of block G until he resigns. Then we drop him onto a bouncy castle below. The religious music during this ceremony is "as I walked down the street one day" from Derek and Clive. But Graham, it is all done terribly politely. There is a full set of terribly formal disciplinary proceedings as a preamble to the defenestration, with a proper judge and barristers cracking legal jokes. So, so witty. Very stylish and polite. No backchat or anything of that sort. And then we find him guilty of misconduct and incompetence and then we hold an appeal in front of a wholly new set of company officers and are even more polite. And we don't dangle him from the window until then. And then if he offers to repay £80 million from 10 wasted years and the £3000 he wastes of my money every year, he gets to be frogmarched out ( by wonderfully chic security men in saville row suits) rather than be dropped onto the stunt mat 40 ft below. Measured. Polite. Appropriate . Serene. Even comfy. I'm just off to eat a rice cake and some prunes which have been blessed by Sir Chips.

  28. markymark

    Apr 28, 2017, 17:44 #100957

    Graham:- So that's your reasoned argument and you can see you've not turned anyone's point of view. This may be a shock to you but many of us on this site believe you to be unreasonable. You claim some sort of moral high ground as apparently you have to deal with nasty WOBs on your meta twitter account. Just for the record individuals on this site who were anti Wenger have been called. Retards, Deviants, Pollywogs, ****ing Mugs, Oirish, Quislings and various other terms. It is interesting that Elspels never thought to pipe up when Jamee, Colesey, Leek, BBA and to his shame Badarse were using these words. Must have suffered some form of word blindness perhaps? Never mind carry on as usual.

  29. Seven Kings Gooner1

    Apr 28, 2017, 17:43 #100956

    Ham: Your point about if Wenger spent he would then know that he would have to deliver, is key to the last 10 years of treading water. Basking in his former successes AW has had a real holiday compared to managers who have used every angle, every method, every top coach available to try to win the top honours in the game. I could possible understand that he took his foot of the gas and accept part of the argument about "bedding in" to a new ground. However the long stream of lousy purchases that have been allowed to wear the shirt has made Arsenal a lightweight team with no heart for a fight - and that I cannot forgive. More disturbing for me is that Graham, and many like him, cannot see that decline in the professionalism of the team and it's coaching staff.

  30. CT Gooner

    Apr 28, 2017, 17:07 #100954

    Come on gents, if nothing else Graham is consistent. His arguments are faith based, so expect to find no logic there, and he's unwavering in his support. Personnally I find his viewpoint poisonous to our club, but that's why we're in the mess we are. The death march has begun, the question is how long will it last, my bet is at least 2 more years.

  31. Time for change

    Apr 28, 2017, 16:58 #100953

    You are you as deluded as Wenger. He is open to change? Plays three at the back for the first time in TWENTY ONE YEARS? Three successive wins but as you say 18 points off top spot with six matches left. Mustafi and holding look good? Am sure Lukaku, Kane et al are shaking in their boots at the thought of going up against those two like strikers were v Campbell and Toure of 2003/4. Also Wenger is answerable to the fans as Gazidis has said and without whom there would be no club.

  32. Ham

    Apr 28, 2017, 16:21 #100952

    Let's nail the lie that Wenger was "strapped for cash" in the so-called austerity years. It is Wenger himself who has publicly declared that at all times the Board provided him with any funds that he asked for. The reality is that, post David Dein, he was unable to conclude the key transfer deals as evidenced by the 2 million Xabi Alonso fiasco in 2008, the Suarez £1 debacle and all the others in between such as Gary Cahill, Phil Jagielka and Gonzalo Higuain etc and the list goes on. He was afraid to spend because he knew that with the spending came responsibility and expectation of success or at least a genuine challenge for success. I suspect that he also doesn't trust himself in the modern market, as evidenced by the £90 million that he spent last Summer: Mustafi (good talker, which we need, but not good enough as a player), Xhaka (not good enough), Perez (we don't know because he buys him and then won't play him).

  33. Paulward

    Apr 28, 2017, 15:31 #100951

    He's well past it, and the fact we are about to finish in our lowest league position since he took over does not suggest we are on the verge of a major breakthrough next season. The cup final should be his swansong. Could things get worse under his successor? Most definitely yes, but the fact is fans and players alike are getting bored waiting.

  34. Clash

    Apr 28, 2017, 15:29 #100950

    Graham, the ''reasoned debate'' you ask for has been done to death on here and in many other places. There is nothing left to say, we just go round in circles. How can anyone want more of this tedium? Don't you want to try something fresh? Something new? Even if it doesnt work at least it will be something different. I cannot stand another 2 seasons of Wenger. Its not just the games and the way we play (or the way we dont play in many cases) - it is the repetitive sound of Wenger himself. That awful voice in pre and post match interviews. The constant uses of words like ''spirit'', ''values'' and ''focus''. I am bored out of my skull with this club and the way it is run. We are missing out on being in a battle with 2 London rivals because Wenger is holding us back. And the key thing you miss is that Wenger is a divisive figure. He causes division in places that are meant to be united i.e. tha fanbase. That reason alone is a reason he should not be allowed to remain any longer.

  35. David1

    Apr 28, 2017, 15:27 #100949

    I had to check today's date, as I thought this was initially an April fools wind-up for Mbg. Utter crap.

  36. mbg

    Apr 28, 2017, 15:24 #100948

    Gaz, with laughter no doubt.

  37. equalizer

    Apr 28, 2017, 15:23 #100947

    Grasping at straws and using strawman arguments, even the author (possibly another AFC paid shill) knows he's finished. He's had his successful decade, proceeded by his less successful not good enough decade where he's proven he's not up to it anymore. Time for the pensioner to step aside and give someone else a shot at bringing the club forward on the pitch. Someone the players can look up to and respect for more than sentimental reasons.

  38. mbg

    Apr 28, 2017, 15:12 #100946

    Decided to read the very end, jaw jaw, war war LOL, laugh of the day, like his messiah he's gone lost the plot now too. You couldn't make it up. #no new contract, We want the weasel out.

  39. mbg

    Apr 28, 2017, 15:00 #100945

    I seen who the article was from(for want of a better term) and read the accompanying statement no need to read any more, what a complete half wit, is that wengers toilet flushing I hear. wenger out ant the perry's with him.

  40. Gunner Rob

    Apr 28, 2017, 14:38 #100944

    good to see someone put forward an alternative point of view. to be honest all you have done is to reinforce my belief that he should GO! there are a multitude of reasons, the simplest that I give to people who don't know much about football such as yourself is that at 67, someone who has not been able to get his team to challenge for the title for 13 years, despite all the advantages of being a team in London, in the Champions League for all that time....should definitely NOT be given any further time to get things wrong. I do hope that you will consider this and the other counter arguments to your view put forward on here.

  41. Exeter Gunner

    Apr 28, 2017, 13:31 #100942

    elpelsarmy - you've picked out two words in a sea of comments that intelligently pull Graham's case apart. The comments here do not and won't now 'go the way it always does'. This 'abuse' angle is being used by Graham to distract from the paucity of his argument - and you're getting distracted. See it for what it is.

  42. elpelsarmy

    Apr 28, 2017, 13:19 #100941

    Mark, Ive been a member on here since 2006 and the guy has already been called a "mug" and a "loser" so its only going one way like it always does. shame

  43. Yes its Ron

    Apr 28, 2017, 13:18 #100940

    Tempting as it is to dismantle Grahams general view that AW should stay as most of us would, its right that we accept that there is an argument in support of him staying on. We re not relegation material, the business model is in rude health and this is the first time (very probably now) that hes missed the top 4 cut. In my view the case for Arsene ends there and all of our other myriad of oft declared facets of the case to go remain firmly in situ. I do agree with Graham where he says ideally Arsenal want a boss whos fully imbued with the Club and its meaning etc etc but i think thats a quaint but unlikely prospect in today's game. Its a shallow game now and about money and the players and coaches are all in the main transient and mercenary, carrying no affinity with the Club or desire to acquire any. I think Grahams a slave of being a long terms supporter and his views reflect that. We ve many of us been there until deciding its pointless being like that anymore about Arsenal or any Club for that matter. To use a new word in footie speak, the case of whats best for the Club 'footballistically' is all that us supporters look towards really and the inescapable fact is that we ve not progressed for quite some years and are now in the process of decline. The Club needs to risk a new broom and new ideas and that means risking further decline and also means accepting the risk that more than one change as Coach might have to occur before the Club can truly challenge Chelsea. I think AW has been the author of his own downfall from the day he chose to compromise being a football Coach by becoming a quasi business manager. Hes been left behind in a football sense and his message has become stale this last 7 yrs or so.Its no good any of us denying though, that there is case to keep him, but only if we look at the issue from the perspective of the business owner. Grahams not trying to do that and hence his case is flawed in my view.

  44. markymark

    Apr 28, 2017, 13:09 #100939

    Elspelsarmy - entirely disagree with you. I wonder how long you have been reading the site. The forum was virtually held to ransom by a misogynistic , racist anti Semite called Jamee. Plus Leekey who would indulge and two nasty pieces of work Colesey and BBA who could get aggressive. All had one thing in common their supposed love for Wenger. A few of us indulged in trolling them so that they spent time chasing their own tails and at least some people could discuss things rationally. Gooner Ron for instance who now seeks change is I'd guess still very much a Wenger loyalist at heart and good for him. With Graham I spot a Brian Badarse about him in that both want to convert people . They fail miserably and make themselves unhappy in the meantime. I'm guessing that if Graham gets his two more years he will rue the day when 35k if that turn up to see us play Hull at home . All seating grounds look terrible with loads of empty seats. The atmosphere evaporates and the Away team loss any fear factor. I do see hard times ahead if they do not have the imagination and Balls to do the right thing. I also suspect Wenger wouldn't actually complete the contract with frustration mounting leading to a humiliating sacking.

  45. peter wain

    Apr 28, 2017, 13:05 #100938

    he has to go and he has to be made accountable for the performances over the last 6 years. Also how can you trust him to radically change the squad. He will not bring in more than three players and the deadwood we have know this. if we finish fourth and win the cup the mantra will be not much wrong with the squad.

  46. RobG

    Apr 28, 2017, 12:55 #100937

    Sorry Graham but in two years time you will trot out the same line. In personality cult land, it will never be time for Wenger to go. He and not Arsenal are all that masters. He should go in May.

  47. Gaz

    Apr 28, 2017, 12:28 #100934

    I think I'm going to cry.

  48. Seven Kings Gooner1

    Apr 28, 2017, 11:07 #100933

    Graham: Questions do not remain about Walcott - most people who watch football and have any understanding of what type of player is required at the highest level know he is not good enough! There - was that polite enough for you?

  49. elpelsarmy

    Apr 28, 2017, 10:28 #100932

    At last some sensible debate, you will get abuse on here though unfortunately, I don't agree with 90% of what you said but I realise it is an opinion and not a hanging offence so fair play to you. For me whilst we were paying the stadium off etc and were strapped for cash he had excuses and I understood that we had to be patient in the hope that when we came out the other side it would be game on, that hasn't happened, he has had the money, he has had the time and he has had the players for the last 4 years and still we go through the same old same old, its tiresome, the club is stale and needs a shake up in every department. The apathy from the players and fans is painful to see, the players turn up when THEY want to, an FA cup final on offer? oh I think I will have some of that and turn up in the semi !!! whats that all about? I'm really not sure what Wenger does anymore to drive the team forward and motivate. I respect him, I love him for what he has done over 20 odd years but time is up, If I had the choice between being successful with Wenger or with someone else in charge it would definitely be with him but I genuinely feel that its not gonna happen, he is now incapable of doing what we want him to do, sad but true

  50. Bard

    Apr 28, 2017, 9:59 #100931

    Graham you are entitled to your opinions but to me your posts are suggest you know very little about football. There is no evidence that he can take us to the next level despite after over a decade of trying. This year he spent over £100m and we are worse off than we were last season. It is blindingly obvious that the team needs a major overhaul rather than the addition of a 'couple'. There has hardly been a game all season where you could say we have played superbly. There is hardly a player who you could say has improved dramatically in the course of the season. Most have either stood still or gone backwards. The team have demonstrated that they are weak mentally and undisciplined tactically. I suggest thats QED mate. Wenger out.

  51. Exeter Gunner

    Apr 28, 2017, 9:58 #100930

    The debate is done, Graham. Your side said he would compete again when he started spending big again. Instead the team has been stagnating and now is regressing (there's a 'footballing reason' for you). Spurs now have a better side. Yet still you want more of this. I'm afraid it's extremely telling. To pluck just one point out though - you say Wenger 'embraces' the history of the club. Time and time again, just this season, he denigrates the history of the club before him - 'I built the club', 'How many times did AFC play in Europe before me' etc, etc. You are so, diametrically, empirically wrong. You live in your own world of what you want Wenger and the club to be, rather than what they actually are in 2017.

  52. Wengerballs

    Apr 28, 2017, 9:40 #100928

    What complete loser talk. You could come up with the same cobblers in 2 years time to justify another 2 years of this 'quality mediocrity' purgatory.

  53. TonyEvans

    Apr 28, 2017, 9:38 #100927

    Graham - the switch to three at the back was a last desperate throw of the dice from a manager bereft of ideas - literally forced into trying something new, and certainly not evidence that Wenger has suddenly turned into some sort of tactical genius after 20 odd years at the club! Your article is straw clutching in the extreme.

  54. andy1886

    Apr 28, 2017, 9:23 #100926

    Oh Dear, I can't see this one going down well... 1. INCORRECT. According to our CEO Arsene IS accountable to fans. Or do you know better than Ivan on that? He often avoids unpalatable questions or utters contemptuous "never worked a day in football" comments. 2. Sorry, Holding is a rarity these days, let's see how Mustafi, Xhaka and co work out before we pass judgement. 3.No Blame eh? LOL!! First of all the stadium provided a net income rise from day one despite the additional funding costs. Secondly Wenger wasted tens of millions annually on the socialist wage structure - see Bendtner, Denilson, Senderos and many others. His choice, his failure. 4. Interesting that you had to go back to 1958 for an example. At any other club such defeats would have been curtains for the manager, that they keep happening just shows that he never ever learns. 5. "A Rocky Patch" - really?? Only if you define a "patch" as over a decade. The Arsenal 'tradition' under Wenger means spineless capitulation under the slightest pressure and and adherence to a dated and failing philosophy resulting in repeated groundhog seasons and widespread disaffection amongst those who pay his wages. Time to go, no more excuses.

  55. jwe1981

    Apr 28, 2017, 9:22 #100925

    mug

  56. NickF

    Apr 28, 2017, 9:14 #100924

    Have we actually made any progress since he signed his last contract two years ago? Most would probably say no. Is there actually anything to suggest another two years would be any different? Also it was stated quite clearly back in 2011 by Gazidis that Wenger is actually accountable to the fans.